PCB design software with components autoplacers.

[free_electron]

So where do you save the changes ?
The only way to save i.e. tracks would be to save the previous tracks array to a file or to memory.
On a large pcb you could be talking mega bytes of memory.
And that's just for tracks, what about text, components etc ?

Undo should only be saving a diff. If you're copying your full dataset for every mutation you're asking for trouble.

What if say someone removed 90% of the tracks that were 10 megabytes ?
Then they press undo, those 9 megabytes need to come from somewhere.

A simple single or double level undo wouldn't be too bad to do but an infinite one would seriously affect performance.

10 megabytes ? for tracks ?

let's look at this.

A segment is defined by a start pointpair and an end pointpair, a width, a layer and a netname. and a couple of flags ( like in selection )

Assuming 32 bit numbers (4 bytes per number ) (wasting storage like crazy cause you don't need allocation for billions of widths and netnames)

segment database example:
[startx : 4 bytes][ starty : 4 bytes][stopx : 4 bytes][stopy : 4 bytes][width index : 4 byte][layer index : 4 byte][flags : 4 byte][netname index : 4 byte] = 32 bytes

32 kilobyte gives you 1000 segments.
10 megabyte could hold 327680 segments ... i doubt you'll ever design board with that many segments.My largest one was 76000 tracks. and that was a 16 layer monster using blind and buried.

a pad or via could be 16 bytes (x and y each 4 bytes, 2 bytes to index the shape , 2 bytes in flags, 4 bytes to index net
A component would be similar
x and y location , a pointer to the symbol table , 2 bits for rotation , 2 bits for mirroring , a selection bit.

I'm starting to think your internal data structures are problematic.

PCB cad programs are largely a relational database. They use a database like system with tables. There is a table that holds tracks , one that holds via's, one that holds track widths, one that holds pad shapes , and so on.
Every entity on screen exists in one table. Finding things is running sort operations on fields in the tables and following links.
if your design has 1 million vias you do not need to allocate memory for 1 million different sizes. You only a 1 million entry table for the coordinates and a pointer to the via definition.
the via definition is a separate table that holds diameter and hole size ( and possibly start and stop layer if your software supports blind and buried or backdrilling , or another link to an advanced definition if you will do things like copper removal on unused layers, or have different annular rings per layer )

You could have a million via's but if they are all the same size that via table is only 1 record. not 1 million records. you don't need to store all that information per via.

The cad tools also store a link to the next connecting segment. As in: the start coordinate for this one coincides with the end coordinate of that one , and the end coordinate of this one coincides with the begin coordinate of yet another one. That way it is easy to parse the connectivity. You not have to analyse the entire table for interference checking, you just follow a linked list.

track 3904 : comesfrom -nothing- , beginx, beginy, endx,endy, goesto track 3905, width 45 , netname 703 , layer 27 , flags none
track 3905 : comesfrom 3904 , beginx , beginy, endx,endy, goesto track 3906, width 9 , netname 703 , layer 27 , flags inselection
track 3905 : comesfrom 3905 , beginx , beginy, endx,endy, goesto -nothing-, width 45 , netname 703 , layer 27 , flags none

the above would be a track made up from 3 segments, middle segment having a different width and being selected.
having the index pointers to the continuation segments available makes it easy to manipulate bendpoints. if i move a point i need to update the endpoint coordinate of the previous or next track and the begin point of the current segment. instant rubberbanding without running interference checking.
checking for missing connectivity (ratsnest display) is simply checking that everything connects to something. when a link in the database is missing : that's a broken connection.

[janoc]

What if say someone removed 90% of the tracks that were 10 megabytes ?
Then they press undo, those 9 megabytes need to come from somewhere.

A simple single or double level undo wouldn't be too bad to do but an infinite one would seriously affect performance.

Dude, did you look at the calendar recently? Is is 2019, 1980s ended 30 years ago. Computers (especially the ones used for CAD of any sort) have tens of gigabytes of RAM these days.

The last time that I have heard this kind of argument being used as a reason why there is no undo was with Blender (the 3D modelling software) in the late 90s. But that program ran under DOS and fit on a single floppy! (it is a wee bit bigger and used to make Hollywood movies since then - and yes, it does have proper undo for maybe 2 decades now!).


Also, how much data do you really need to store per track? X,Y coordinates of start and end of each segment + thickness, let's say 5 floats per segment. That's 20 bytes per segment, so let's say an average has 20-30 segments, we are talking some 600 bytes/track. Your 10MB would mean you have deleted some 17 000 tracks! I doubt you are designing PC motherboards with your software. 

(fudging the numbers a bit because each track likely has some metadata, such as net name and class associated with it but that doesn't need to be stored with each segment. Also counted MB as 10E6 bytes for simplicity).

The other thing is that if someone is doing a mass operation such as a block delete of 90% of the tracks for whatever reason, the operation can be stored in the undo stack differently (e.g. as a checkpoint that gets restored as a whole instead of storing deletions of the individual tracks), saving memory and time.

You would do much better if you stopped defending the major usability problems with your program with such ridiculous arguments and actually took in the feedback from people like Free_electron who definitely know what they are talking about. If you had to pay him as a consultant to help you improve your product, you would most likely go broke.

[Mechatrommer]

undo data can also be stored in HDD, Terrabytes of storage. Altium will store history data at some interval of time, sometime 10-30 files per editing session. they are full documents, not some chunk of partial undo data. undo data that are stored in memory that can be recalled by Ctrl-Z during editing is another story. i gathered sometime i have hundreds of this history files stored permanently even if Altium closed and reopened several times, by OP's theory the storage will depleted quickly in no time but in fact those files are only KB size and i still have plenty of space to store 1080P videos if i dont clear them up. mind you they are not 2 resistors or sparsed density circuit. if each undo data size is in order of 10MB and have problem to be stored in current PC system, RAM or HDD, then i think the programmer is doing it wrong or maybe its not the right job for him, clearly the programmer here is out of touch.

[nigelwright7557]

A segment is defined by a start pointpair and an end pointpair, a width, a layer and a netname. and a couple of flags ( like in selection )

Assuming 32 bit numbers (4 bytes per number ) (wasting storage like crazy cause you don't need allocation for billions of widths and netnames)

It might be defined that way in a simple program but a full PCBCAD package has about 20 bytes of data plus the netname which can be min of 32 bytes.

There are a few reasons why I wont be adding undo:
1/ It slows down the cad package.
2/ It can easily be got around by saving work regularly and reloading file if many mistakes have been made.
3/ If a track segment was deleted it takes just one mouse click to add it again, same as Control z so Control z is pointless in many cases.
4/ I have done hundreds of pcb's and it has never been a problem.

[janoc]

A segment is defined by a start pointpair and an end pointpair, a width, a layer and a netname. and a couple of flags ( like in selection )

Assuming 32 bit numbers (4 bytes per number ) (wasting storage like crazy cause you don't need allocation for billions of widths and netnames)

It might be defined that way in a simple program but a full PCBCAD package has about 20 bytes of data plus the netname which can be min of 32 bytes.

There are a few reasons why I wont be adding undo:
1/ It slows down the cad package.
2/ It can easily be got around by saving work regularly and reloading file if many mistakes have been made.
3/ If a track segment was deleted it takes just one mouse click to add it again, same as Control z so Control z is pointless in many cases.
4/ I have done hundreds of pcb's and it has never been a problem.

1) BS (or you have an extremely poorly written inefficient code). Interesting that every single CAD has undo and it doesn't slow them. Even extremely heavy duty mechanical CADs have undo and there you are really  saving tens of megabytes of data for some operations. I wonder how can they do it?

2) Yeah right. So reloading a file from scratch is faster than the supposedly slow undo? And I have to manage all this myself including naming files, by hand, potentially losing work if I forget to save or rename the file? Sounds like software I certainly don't want to use.

3) Undo isn't only for deleting track segments. Try to delete an entire net by accident. Or accidentally moving a component that must be precisely placed because it mates with a mechanical feature (connector, cutout, etc.). Instead of hitting CTRL+Z I can spend next hour fixing the board. Oh but I can reload the file, losing only 30 minutes of work since the last save. Winner!

4) Your experience is obviously more relevant than the needs of your (potential) users (and people who have done many thousands of boards). Especially given the boards you have shown here.


BTW, not sure whether anyone has commented on this yet but this layout looks really interesting (picture from the OP's website):


I wonder how are you managing to weave the tracks from different layers together like that - with no vias? Or is the software drawing both layers but doesn't maintain the z-order correctly so the red track sometimes appears below the green one and sometimes above? Either way, this looks pretty odd.


And I love this on your website:

This is a fully integrated package and not a suite of amateur free programs cobbled together.

Well, FYI, some of those amateur free programs run circles around what you are selling here.

Just

[Mr. Scram]

It might be defined that way in a simple program but a full PCBCAD package has about 20 bytes of data plus the netname which can be min of 32 bytes.

There are a few reasons why I wont be adding undo:
1/ It slows down the cad package.
2/ It can easily be got around by saving work regularly and reloading file if many mistakes have been made.
3/ If a track segment was deleted it takes just one mouse click to add it again, same as Control z so Control z is pointless in many cases.
4/ I have done hundreds of pcb's and it has never been a problem.

Are you developing this for yourself or as a tool for others to use?

[free_electron]

A segment is defined by a start pointpair and an end pointpair, a width, a layer and a netname. and a couple of flags ( like in selection )

Assuming 32 bit numbers (4 bytes per number ) (wasting storage like crazy cause you don't need allocation for billions of widths and netnames)

It might be defined that way in a simple program but a full PCBCAD package has about 20 bytes of data plus the netname which can be min of 32 bytes.

There are a few reasons why I wont be adding undo:
1/ It slows down the cad package.
2/ It can easily be got around by saving work regularly and reloading file if many mistakes have been made.
3/ If a track segment was deleted it takes just one mouse click to add it again, same as Control z so Control z is pointless in many cases.
4/ I have done hundreds of pcb's and it has never been a problem.

20 Bytes ? So 10 10 Megabytes yields 500.000 Tracks. You don't even come close to designing such a board. And there is no need to store the netname per track , only a 2 or 4 byte index to a table holding the names.
Your internal architecture is not right.

To give you an idea i looked at the data of a board i worked on.

Board is 37.4 cm by 52.2 cm ( 1/3 by 1/2 meter)
3600 arcs
1574 fills
11741 pads
6552 strings
109450 track segments
5402 vias
1175 polygons
6555 pad/via holes
99 slotted holes
3518 components, every single one of em including a full 3d model in STEP format
1522 nets
8 layers of copper

it is .. 67 megabyte uncompressed on disk.

Sorry bub , if you need 10 megabyte of storage for an undo operation on a 10x10 board with 20 components and 100 traces... something is seriously wrong

Anyway, i'm at the end of my advice. I have real work to do as opposed to help people make their stuff better.

[nigelwright7557]

Designing such a board. And there is no need to store the netname per track , only a 2 or 4 byte index to a table holding the names.
Your internal architecture is not right.

But the net name is only stored once per line in schematic entry  at the start of its data.
Using arrays to find the net name from an index is unnecasary extra code.

Sorry to hear you ran out of "imaginary" problems.
When you stand back and consider the software is only £4-99 its a pretty amazing piece of software for the money.
Being beligerant and comparing it software costing hundreds or thousands is just being pedantic.

[Mr. Scram]

But the net name is only stored once per line in schematic entry  at the start of its data.
Using arrays to find the net name from an index is unnecasary extra code.

Sorry to hear you ran out of "imaginary" problems.
When you stand back and consider the software is only £4-99 its a pretty amazing piece of software for the money.
Being beligerant and comparing it software costing hundreds or thousands is just being pedantic.

free_electron is the one guy who genuinely tried your software and is trying to supply meaningful comments. I'll ask again, are you developing this strictly as a personal tool or are you trying to make something that's useful to more people?

[Spirit532]

If this was the cheapest software available(and it was 2002), it'd be amazing value for money.
KiCAD, however, crushes this in every single way. There's literally no reason to buy this. The free software is better than this paid version.

[nctnico]

If this was the cheapest software available(and it was 2002), it'd be amazing value for money.
KiCAD, however, crushes this in every single way. There's literally no reason to buy this. The free software is better than this paid version.

I think so too unless the software from the OP has an excellent solution for the logistics part of circuit board design (the last time I check that is still lacking from Kicad).

[janoc]

But the net name is only stored once per line in schematic entry  at the start of its data.
Using arrays to find the net name from an index is unnecasary extra code.

I think this tells us everything we need to know about the way your program is written. Seriously, no thanks

Sorry to hear you ran out of "imaginary" problems.
When you stand back and consider the software is only £4-99 its a pretty amazing piece of software for the money.
Being beligerant and comparing it software costing hundreds or thousands is just being pedantic.

He is comparing it to any recent (like last 20 years recent) software. Even a free (as in freedom and beer, i.e. $0 cost!) KiCAD can handle most of these things with no problems. Eagle detto. Your claim that only software like Altium costing thousands per seat can handle something as basic like undo is completely ridiculous.

You are seriously good at demolishing those strawmen by taking stuff out of context and constantly ignoring the parts of the argument that don't suit you.

[thinkfat]

The thread should probably be closed. There is nothing more to be said. The OP is seriously in denial of reality and doesn't take advice. Nothing useful can come out of this.

[james_s]

The whole debate regarding undo is irrelevant anyway since every single other EDA I'm aware of for at least the last 20+ years has had it and manages to implement it without being slow or causing other problems. Since every other product has it, if it cannot be added to this product then this product is clearly defective by design.

[nigelwright7557]

The thread should probably be closed. There is nothing more to be said. The OP is seriously in denial of reality and doesn't take advice. Nothing useful can come out of this.

Most of the comments  I have received have been made by someone who has used the software for 10 minutes and obviously hasn't spent time reading the manual on how to do things. What they say is missing mostly isn't. I have written and used the software for 28 years so know it intimately.
Its just very sad people take the word of an amateur over the word of the software designer.

As for undo, I don't make enough mistakes to need it and if I did make that many mistakes I would seriously consider letting an expert do my pcb's instead.

FFS the software is £4-99, it compares favourably with EasyPC which is 100 times the price !
If someone wants some cheap PCBCAD software with loads of features then this is the software to buy.
3,000+ of my customers cant be wrong.

[nigelwright7557]

The whole debate regarding undo is irrelevant anyway since every single other EDA I'm aware of for at least the last 20+ years has had it and manages to implement it without being slow or causing other problems. Since every other product has it, if it cannot be added to this product then this product is clearly defective by design.

I have never said it couldn't be added. My time is better spent adding more important functionality.
If you really make that many mistakes then you are in the wrong job !

In fact it does have undo, its called the reload button, that loads i nthe last saved version. Simples !

[nctnico]

The thread should probably be closed. There is nothing more to be said. The OP is seriously in denial of reality and doesn't take advice. Nothing useful can come out of this.

Most of the comments  I have received have been made by someone who has used the software for 10 minutes and obviously hasn't spent time reading the manual on how to do things. What they say is missing mostly isn't. I have written and used the software for 28 years so know it intimately.
Its just very sad people take the word of an amateur over the word of the software designer.

I think you should have researched free_electron before putting your foot in your mouth. Although he is indeed quick to comment and is a bit Altium-centric he also has decades of experience in designing circuit boards professionally. If there is one person who is absolutely not an amateur when it comes to PCB design it is free_electron. He could be a real treasure trove of information for someone like you.  Just pick the gems. Most people won't care about which key combination they need to use to copy something but things like ease of drawing schematics, routing a board and -indeed- having an undo function are important.

I think your statement about not needing an undo is just silly. If you pick the wrong component or a different track segment there is nothing easier and more productive than hitting 'undo' instead of putting whatever you picked back. Let alone having to reload the file. I'm using undo regulary in Allegro for various reasons (for example if the push & shove router made a real mess).

[maginnovision]

Maybe your 3000 customers don't say anything because they gave up on using it. Not to mention feedback is EXTREMELY valuable but you just ignore it and say your way is the right way. With that attitude you absolutely will not grow sales especially with free products like KiCAD( which I don't use). You made a FS thread and then tell everyone you're perfectly happy with all the decisions you've made for your software. That's great, but it's not a reason for someone else to buy it. What sort of files can I import to use with your software? Can I export for use with other CAD packages? Can I customize the UI to my liking? Can I build custom commands? I'm not sure what worthwhile features you're saying your software has that nobody else does but maybe what you have is nowhere close to what you don't.

It's really great you never make mistakes but some of us do. Some of us do something then like to backtrack and try something else. Maybe not an issue for your boards but you get relatively complicated boards and that's a problem. Undo is there partly so we don't NEED to save and load like we're save scumming our way through a difficult game. I really do wish you luck and I'm happy you've managed the sales you have but here we are spoiled for choice and even if price were the number 1 issue there are cheaper options still.

[nigelwright7557]

I think you should have researched free_electron before putting your foot in your mouth. Although he is indeed quick to comment and is a bit Altium-centric he also has decades of experience in designing circuit boards professionally. If there is one person who is absolutely not an amateur when it comes to PCB design it is free_electron.

I am sure thats true but he is not the expert on my software. He spent 10 minutes on it and I have spent 28 years !
If he had come up with genuine criticisms I would have listened carefully and maybe even implemented some of his ideas. In fact I did implement dropping components onto tracks and thanks for that, at least that one was honest.
But he didn't do that, most of his list was things that the software actually does do so understand when he peed me off.

I do feel people have been unfair hyper critical, just for amusement tonight I visited EasyPC forum and read the hundreds of forum entries of problems it has and that is hunreds of pounds, not £4-99.
My software has no bug list. "Would be nice if" doesn't count but I do and have listened to customers, thats where a lot of the ideas implemented came from.

[nigelwright7557]

Maybe your 3000 customers don't say anything because they gave up on using it.

You really are scraping the barrel for criticisms.
The software doesn't need to allow changes to UI as its right to start with. That's just window dressing anyway.
What it does do on the bottom status line is tell you what to do next which many other packages don't to.
Matey asked about F9 block mode. If you press F9 the status bar tells you what to do next ! simples

My ebay feedback is about 99% and that is on about 700 transactions there. The rest were sold on my website and Amazon.
Of course you sometimes get someone come along who cant work Windows never mind CAD software and they complain its too hard.
I could buy a helicopter but it doesn't make me a pilot !
PCBCAD software is complex even before you consider the software. Try laying out a PC motherboard and you will understand.

I found it hilarious your mate being a Ultiboard user, thats £2200 ! mine is £4-99

[Mechatrommer]

Why dont you just say you are lazy arse to do that?  Well, thats the hard bitter way. Softer way of saying is... accept the fact and tell you are going to do if you have the time and its a difficult daunting task to do that costs money and time.. i know i tried undo feature in chromeera, its half the software job. Esp code to backtrack data structure correctly to avoid storing array of full scale data in memory and to avoid corrupted undone data.. admittance to incapability is not wrong imho..

[nigelwright7557]

Why dont you just say you are lazy arse to do that?  Well, thats the hard bitter way. Softer way of saying is... accept the fact and tell you are going to do if you have the time and its a difficult daunting task to do that costs money and time.. i know i tried undo feature in chromeera, its half the software job. Esp code to backtrack data structure correctly to avoid storing array of full scale data in memory and to avoid corrupted undone data.. admittance to incapability is not wrong imho..

Its pretty simple to just save a copy of the data structures each time a key is pressed or a mouse is click. Software is savepcb(); That doesn't look like rocket science tome ?
Then if Control z is pressed restore it.
Its not a case of cant do it but wont do it because I don't feel it is necessary.
All I do is, do a bit of work maybe 5 or 10 minutes and get to a point where it is ok and save it.
Then if I make a "big" mistake I restore it by loading file back in.
But hang on isn't that what Control z does ? except Control z does it unnecassarily repeatedly. I feel sorry for the poor old hard drive as it is thrashed.

If I decided to do something complex which I find hasn't worked, I just reload file back in, simples.

I find most mistakes are pretty simple like accidentally deleting the wrong track segment, in which case a left mouse click adds a new track.
That's one click instead of two for control  + z

I am open to ideas but at the end of the day its my decision if something is included or not.
If people don't like it they can buy elsewhere.
The book stops with me.

[Black Phoenix]

I am open to ideas but at the end of the day its my decision if something is included or not.
If people don't like it they can buy elsewhere.
The book stops with me.

Then I don't see the meaning of this thread being open anymore. You advertise your software and let it be analysed by potential buyers, that potential buyers gives you advice of improving the software and your state of mind is mainly what I've quoted above. Then tell me why you started this thread in the first place.

I don't see need of this thread anymore to be sincere.

[james_s]

Well that's great and I hold no ill will toward you or your satisfied customers, however I don't think you're going to pick up many customers here, especially when most of us already have tools that work for us. Some cost a bundle, others are free, I don't personally see much point in something less capable that is in the "almost but not quite free" category but whatever, if it works for some people that's great. Not much point in continuing to debate here though, if anything this thread is likely to turn off potential customers. Many of whom might buy it on a whim to try it out, stop using it when they realize it has little to offer and then leave positive feedback because they got what they paid for and it was only the price of a latte so hardly worth quibbling over.

[nigelwright7557]

... it feels at the level of Smartwork ... 

OIII don't knock Smartwork !! I used it for many years and literally did 100s pcbs on it - plus it was easy to re-engineer and get into the data files.
I created graphics files / viewers, assembly overlay programs etc I really only switched back then, when they stopped advancing it, and my new favourite Proteus came out !

i started with smartwork. made probably 50 boards with it during my school years when all we had was 8088 based pc's.... it worked fine . i still miss its ability to shave pads to run a trace ...
i really liked that tool. dip e 28 600. draw a dip package eastward 28 pins 600 mil pitch f1 place pad f2 remove pad f3 place wire f4 remove wire f5 thick wire.

but then you find better tools... and you move on.

My first venture into PCBCAD software was with EasyPC in 1990.
It was ok but was terribly buggy.
So  I wrote my own based on EasyPC.
I sell it as a hobby for £4-99, EasyPC charge about £400 !