AliExpress adventures

[magic]

So I bought stuff on AliExpress. It arrived nonoperational, with scratches and other marks of somewhat unprofessional handling
Shipping packaging is OK, so it looks like the vendor / their employees screwed up.

While opening the dispute, I had to choose between "quality issue" and "damaged item". I picked the latter and got an automated message that my claim will be treated as shipping damage and handled by AliExpress themselves because it was their shipping service.

The seller probably won't even know and surely won't care until Ali concludes it wasn't shipping related and hands the issue off. For that to happen, I now need to produce photographs of the packaging and a video of the device failing to operate as intended. Pics aren't enough for them, although most sellers would accept them right away IME if something is obviously dead.
 

TL;DR: always choose "quality issue" if it's the seller's fault.

[SilverSolder]

Same as on eBay:  Always choose "Item not as described" if it is the seller's fault (and even if it isn't!).

[Stray Electron]

  IMO it's unreasonable for Ali to expect YOU to jump through a bunch of hoops  to Prove that the item doesn't work. If they're concerned about that then they're free to have it shipped back at their expense and then they can test it themselves.  Your pictures of the damaged item and the damaged packaging should be enough. If Ali continues to be unreasonable I would cancel the payment if it was made via a credit card of PayPal. if you made payment through some service where you can't get a refund, then shame on you.  Live and learn.

[SilverSolder]

The problem is, these sites all have "set-in-stone" processes to deal with claims / refunds.

If the user doesn't select the right path, right at the outset...   unhappiness will be the result, because there is usually no way back once a path has been chosen!

[magic]

The packaging is not damaged and the item was screwed by the seller/supplier/whoever.

I'm not entirely surprised, my photo of some test gear attached to the product would perhaps suffice to convince an electronics supplier, but the problem is that the dispute is handled by AliEx customer support. I uploaded a somewhat more "dummy friendly" video today, fingers crossed

Yep, they have a "process" and they follow it, that's all. And I wouldn't mind it, if there was clear information that this is how my claim will be interpreted and handled at the time I was filing it. Unfortunately, AE is sometimes crappy like that. There are things you just need to know because they won't tell you before it's too late. For instance, I still haven't figured out how to check what the deadline for opening a dispute is, other than by remembering when I confirmed the delivery and adding two weeks.

[magic]

Bumping my AliExpress adventures blog

So, for those who have been holding their breath the last seven months, I won that dispute back then

But now I have a new problem. Does anyone know how to win a "counterfeit item" dispute and what the criteria are I need to meet? It frankly is not the first time that I filed such claim and it got rejected. Previously, they changed it to "defective item" and gave me the partial refund I requested (the chips were a mix of random brands with fake markings but equivalent) so I just accepted it.

This time, I received some blacktopped mystery meat instead of an obscure single-source IC and I got pissed and requested full refund. Their response? Apparently I failed to prove my case, but they agree it's "defective" again and suggest 50% refund or 100% only if I send the garbage back. Regarding "counterfeit",

Dear, please provide the brand publicity of seller, such as the logo on the product to prove it is fake. Thanks for your cooperation and we are eager to solve your problem. Have a nice day.

Does anyone know what it is that they want from me? I surely did post photos which show fake logos on obvious black paint covering the original markings. I pointed it out to them in a comment but they didn't respond. Unfortunately, original markings are gone and rubbing the black topping away revealed nothing interesting.

If all else fails, I will crack one chip open and maybe find the true part number on the die. But I would rather avoid arguing such things with tech-illiterate support drones.

[langwadt]

Bumping my AliExpress adventures blog

So, for those who have been holding their breath the last seven months, I won that dispute back then

But now I have a new problem. Does anyone know how to win a "counterfeit item" dispute and what the criteria are I need to meet? It frankly is not the first time that I filed such claim and it got rejected. Previously, they changed it to "defective item" and gave me the partial refund I requested (the chips were a mix of random brands with fake markings but equivalent) so I just accepted it.

This time, I received some blacktopped mystery meat instead of an obscure single-source IC and I got pissed and requested full refund. Their response? Apparently I failed to prove my case, but they agree it's "defective" again and suggest 50% refund or 100% only if I send the garbage back. Regarding "counterfeit",

I see atleast two problems sending counterfeits back, they might try to sell it to someone else and sending known counterfeits might be legal issue

[magic]

Legal issue, LMAO
No one would ever find out.

The prime reason why I'm not sending anything back is because I have already removed them from the tape (yes, they taped those fake ICs ) and I'm not going to risk that the asshole seller will make problems because of that. I'm assuming that they will not pay me until the seller acknowledges the return; somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Another reason is that I have already destroyed the black paint and fake markings on one specimen

[langwadt]

Legal issue, LMAO
No one would ever find out.

The prime reason why I'm not sending anything back is because I have already removed them from the tape (yes, they taped those fake ICs ) and I'm not going to risk that the asshole seller will make problems because of that. I'm assuming that they will not pay me until the seller acknowledges the return; somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Another reason is that I have already destroyed the black paint and fake markings on one specimen

find some parts on tape in a similar package

[SilverSolder]

Does AliExpress support "Item not as described" as the reason for complaining?

That's what I always use on eBay, and I never lose!

A couple of examples:   

Item: Cell phone
Problem: Does not connect to WiFi or Bluetooth (hardware issue, is my belief)
Complaint: "Item not as described"
Reason: "Described as 100% functional, but the item I received does not connect to WiFi or Bluetooth"
Outcome:  Full refund, item sent back at seller's expense


Item:  Used bench DMM, sold "as is, for parts"
Problem:  Missing major parts
Complaint: "Item not as described"
Reason: "Described as 'For parts', but the item I received had major parts missing which was not disclosed by seller"
Outcome:  Full refund, item sent back at seller's expense


The beauty of "Item not as described" is that it puts the onus on the seller to demonstrate why you're wrong.  If they are BS artists, they would rather just move on quietly!

[magic]

Well, there is, but then the seller would likely not accept full refund so the case would go to AE customer support and they would want me again to bother with all that "video evidence" and they probably wouldn't understand much of it and just tell me to send the crap back for a refund. But returning is what I wanted to avoid dealing with - see the post above.

I mean, look at their response. They already are willing to accept that something might be "defective" about the parts (based on my pictures of black paint, basically) but they want me to send them back or take 50% refund.

That's why I push the counterfeit angle. I hope/expect that maybe they would be willing to refund 100% in such case, but I just can't get them to admit that the chips are indeed counterfeit

Another business days in China is passing without response, so I guess it's time to crack this shit open and look for original logos and part numbers.

find some parts on tape in a similar package

He surely deserves it, but the markings are visible from outside so I would have to fake it somehow

[SilverSolder]

[...]
Another business days in China is passing without response, so I guess it's time to crack this shit open and look for original logos and part numbers.
[...]

How bad is the fake chip - does it fail clear specifications from the data sheet?  That would be a good thing to demonstrate...

Is it possible to get a high quality picture of the real deal off the Internet, and do an A to B comparison?  Or is the fake very good looking...

[magic]

At this point the problem is that they want me to send the chips back. And I don't want to send them back because I'm lazy and because the seller could make a fuss that they are unpacked and partly damaged and I suppose I would risk ending up with no money and no chips. I would rather take 50%.

I don't think that demonstrating poor specs would change their minds about it. They would just say it's "quality" problem, so return them and get your money back. I really want to turn that second line green and see if new perks are unlocked by achieving this level

BTW, they were supposed to be ISL21009 FGA voltage references so you would reasonably expect the cheapest bandgap rubbish if they are fake. Sure enough, I just opened one and it looks like Noopy's pics of REF01 so I guess it's REF02. There is even PMI logo on it, so I may be able to point it out.

I could power them up and nail them on tolerance and power consumption, but I feel like it's futile. However, REF02 sell for absolute peanuts on AliExpress (prolly recycled or fake, but not my problem) so I'm tempted to request the difference between what I paid and the going price of Chink REF02 and see what happens.

[SilverSolder]

You've got the evidence you need now, well done!   I would go balls-out, all in now!   

The case is being reviewed by non-experts.  So simplified "simple" and "bold" complaints are best.  What's the simplest, shortest, boldest claim that can be made to a lay person that is still defensible?

"The items I received are integrated circuits type REF02 by PMI which have been fraudulently altered and re-marked to look like ISL21009 (see attached pictures).   The items I received are not usable, have no commercial value, and are clearly in violation of AliExpress policies on counterfeit goods.  Please grant my reasonable request for a full refund.  If seller wishes the fraudulent items returned, I am willing to do that at seller's expense only."


What's seller going to do...  "Wait, my fakes are based on REF01 and I want more $"?     

[tszaboo]

Yes, they ask you to jump through hoops to get your refund.
Look at this for one purchase that I made some time ago. I asked for a refund out of principle, because I don't get scams slide, no matter how small. And they came back to me to do additional bunch of things for 1 EUR, even after uploading a photo... 

Problems with the order   Judgement from AE   Invalid Reason   Proof Guide
parameter not as described   Invalid   Unable to identify your claim, please clarify your claim stating the problem of the goods you have received   
Please take a clear picture of the product and mark out the discrepancies.

Color not as described   Invalid   No problem is shown in the evidence   Dear buyer, we can't see the difference between the product you purchased and the seller page product. Please give another proof, thank you for your understanding.

Solutions:
  Option 1: Return goods   Full refund  1.07 EUR ( Buyer pays the returning shipping fee)

[magic]

These are some good ideas, including finding the actual rules (they seem to be here) and pointing out that the product is illegal and therefore legally has no value

That being said, I am only willing to send them back for the purpose of bringing legal action against the seller (lol, it will never happen) and in partly disassembled condition


If these dispute rules are applicable to AE (?) then this may be my problem:
https://rule.alibaba.com/rule/detail/8882.htm

Article 55 Where the products delivered by the Seller have quality problems, Inconsistent Descriptions, or infringement issue, Alibaba.com shall support Returning of Products and Refund to the Buyer. If the products cannot be returned due to its nature, the objective conditions, or the restrictions under local laws and regulations, Alibaba.com shall support Refund, and the Seller shall contact the Buyer on its own in order to handle products.

Article 56 Where part of the products delivered by the Seller have quality problems, Inconsistent Descriptions, or minor defects or flaws that do not affect the main functions of the products, Alibaba.com shall support Partial Refund.

Basically, they always want it returned when full refund is given (and the goods aren't MIA). I would have to find some excuse like maybe sending counterfeit items by post is illegal (if it is).
Or ask for adjustment of price to REF02 level. After all, the main function of the product is here, they just sent me a low quality substitute that costs 20 cents in China

[Bassman59]

Bumping my AliExpress adventures blog

This little adventure just made it less likely I will ever use AliExpress for anything.

What a fucking pile of crap. They exist because people are willing to take a chance on "cheap."

[SilverSolder]

The issue is that to a layman, it's your word against the vendor's.  Unless you are able to show some clear pictures that a layman can understand, they might choose to believe the vendor's story (for all we know, vendor could be telling them that you are trying to scam them).

So, your complaint has to be the cleanest, simplest, and most direct possible.


"The items I received do not match the item description at all.  I received inferior devices with counterfeit labeling to make them look like the item in the description.  The attached pictures clearly show the items I received are re-labeled REF02 chips, not ISL21009 as claimed in the description.   

The items I received would be rejected by any independent institution performing even the most basic tests.  They are not usable, have no commercial value, and are clearly in violation of AliExpress policies on counterfeit goods. 

I am asking for a full refund.   If this is not possible for some reason, I will pursue a complaint with my credit card company regarding the fraudulent activity.

[PlainName]

The issue is that to a layman, it's your word against the vendor's.  Unless you are able to show some clear pictures that a layman can understand, they might choose to believe the vendor's story (for all we know, vendor could be telling them that you are trying to scam them).

No, they've already accepted the stuff is dodgy and he should get the refund. The issue is that the vendor wants them returned. He probably doesn't but he knows that by asking for that (quite legitimately) the chances of the stuff ever going back are nil, because the buyer has to pay the shipping. And then it takes weeks, if not months, to arrive. And then it only arrives if the buyer paid for tracked/signed delivery. Thus the cost to the buyer to get his 100% refund may be more than the cost of the item in the first place.

Once, I actually returned a CCTV camera expecting to never see or hear about it again, and then four months later got an email saying it'd arrived and a replacement sent. Could've knocked me over with a feather

[magic]

They exist because people are willing to take a chance on "cheap."

This is indeed the point
But also because it gives me access to Chinese IC recyclers. Go find me ISL21009 anywhere for any price.
(Well, OK, I found them for something like $25 each which is more than I'm gambling now and still can't be sure if legit).

I also bought some perfectly normal products from AE like photographic thread adapters and simple optics, no problem with that stuff. I do it because it would look weird if half of my purchases ended up in disputes

No, they've already accepted the stuff is dodgy and he should get the refund. The issue is that the vendor wants them returned. He probably doesn't but he knows that by asking for that (quite legitimately) the chances of the stuff ever going back are nil, because the buyer has to pay the shipping. And then it takes weeks, if not months, to arrive. And then it only arrives if the buyer paid for tracked/signed delivery. Thus the cost to the buyer to get his 100% refund may be more than the cost of the item in the first place.

In this case they offered to force the seller to pay the bill. But I would have to save that bill, send it to them, wait for the parcel to arrive, for the seller to confirm, maybe the seller wouldn't be happy that two ICs are cracked to see what's inside, that sort of drama

[magic]

The issue is that to a layman, it's your word against the vendor's.  Unless you are able to show some clear pictures that a layman can understand, they might choose to believe the vendor's story (for all we know, vendor could be telling them that you are trying to scam them).

So, your complaint has to be the cleanest, simplest, and most direct possible.

Yep.

I learned previously that AliExpress loves video evidence so tomorrow some poor soul in China will waste two minutes of his or her life watching me test eight voltage reference chips with a DMM. Roughly ±4mV spread, far out of spec, but I didn't even post the spec, just said it's supposed to be 5V
Then the soul will be rewarded for her patience with my beautiful collage. Check it out, it's a work of art

If this doesn't work then I'm buying an AK47 and a one way ticket to China

Oh, and by the way, I learned that counterfeiting Intersil ICs is actually fair game. Because they have been bought out (by Renesas?) and whoever did it, they didn't bother refreshing the trademark registrations. So they are expired now. IANAL, but I'm no longer convinced that any IP infringement took place, just ordinary fraud. So I didn't even mention it in order to fit more important things in their 500 character limit.

[SilverSolder]

[...]
In this case they offered to force the seller to pay the bill. But I would have to save that bill, send it to them, wait for the parcel to arrive, for the seller to confirm, maybe the seller wouldn't be happy that two ICs are cracked to see what's inside, that sort of drama

I don't think two cracked ICs is going to be an issue in this case - OK, give him 25 cents each or something... 

It is actually not at all legitimate for seller to ask buyer to pay for the disputed goods to be shipped back.  Essentially, the legal situation is that the original contract has been broken (by seller), which has resulted in the current situation where seller has some property of his taking up space at the buyer's premises!

It's like if you rented a car, and it then breaks down during the trip -  the car is still owned by the rental company and they have to recover it after breaking their contract of providing a working vehicle to you...  your only obligation is to park it as safely and responsibly as practically possible before you abandon the car and continue your journey by other means!

According to AE's web site,  "We promise your money back if the item you received is not as described, or if your item is not delivered within the Buyer Protection period."   Furthermore, it states:  "The seller must comply with other relevant legal requirements (warranty, return, etc.) that may be applicable depending on your location as buyer. For instance, in most EU countries you will generally have a 2-year legal conformity warranty.

Thanks to the European Union (European directive 1999/44/EC), for any purchase in store or on the Internet from a professional seller, you benefit from a legal guarantee of conformity of at least 2 years, which allows you to ask the seller to repair or exchange the good, or if this proves impossible, the reimbursement of the sums paid.

Basically,  AliExpress and the seller don't have a leg to stand on legally and in principle you could keep annoying them for years by raising new cases for non-conformance for every individual IC on that roll, LOL! 

[thm_w]

BTW, they were supposed to be ISL21009 FGA voltage references so you would reasonably expect the cheapest bandgap rubbish if they are fake. Sure enough, I just opened one and it looks like Noopy's pics of REF01 so I guess it's REF02. There is even PMI logo on it, so I may be able to point it out.

I could power them up and nail them on tolerance and power consumption, but I feel like it's futile. However, REF02 sell for absolute peanuts on AliExpress (prolly recycled or fake, but not my problem) so I'm tempted to request the difference between what I paid and the going price of * REF02 and see what happens.

You may want to edit out the racist slur.

What I do from the start, let the seller know: I received this IC, this is what I measured (xV), it does not match the datasheet, show photo of DMM + datasheet, I will have to leave a 1 star review.
A reputable seller will try to work with you.

If you bought from a poorly rated seller then its a lot harder, and not worth the effort IMO. Assuming you spent <$20 on these, if you spent more, then next time do a test purchase before committing to a vendor.

[magic]

It's like if you rented a car, and it then breaks down during the trip -  the car is still owned by the rental company and they have to recover it after breaking their contract of providing a working vehicle to you...  your only obligation is to park it as safely and responsibly as practically possible before you abandon the car and continue your journey by other means!

Well, right, it's like I rented a car, it ran a little slow and I started to suspect something may be fishy, so I cut out half of the car to find a lawnmower engine inside, and the owner should just accept the car back as-is 'cause it originally was his fault.
 

[SilverSolder]

It's like if you rented a car, and it then breaks down during the trip -  the car is still owned by the rental company and they have to recover it after breaking their contract of providing a working vehicle to you...  your only obligation is to park it as safely and responsibly as practically possible before you abandon the car and continue your journey by other means!

Well, right, it's like I rented a car, it ran a little slow and I started to suspect something may be fishy, so I cut out half of the car to find a lawnmower engine inside, and the owner should just accept the car back as-is 'cause it originally was his fault.
 

Legally, the thinking is always in terms of actual damage caused to the injured party.   So, you destroyed a couple of his fake devices - but the devices are literally worthless, resale value zero - so no actual legal damage has actually occurred!   Whereas the damage that seller caused to you is completely real -  "liberating" the entire purchase price from your wallet under false pretences!