AliExpress adventures

[magic]

They aren't worthless, they are alternative implementations of ISL21009 with perhaps slightly worse performance and with a neat picture on them which traditionally appeared on ISL21009 and which doesn't mean anything because it surely isn't a registered trademark or anything of that sort

I'm kidding, but that's what they would tell you. There are no fakes on AliExpress, only quality issues

And in this case, it actually appears to be technically true. The part number is not standardized, the logo is not a trademark. Anyone can make chips like that. You think they have something to do with some other vendor's product under similar name? Oh well, silly you.
https://trademarks.justia.com/765/29/i-76529497.html

[PlainName]

It is actually not at all legitimate for seller to ask buyer to pay for the disputed goods to be shipped back.

Check any advert and the chances are that it will say "Buyer pays return shipping". But regardless of that, they can still screw you over by insisting you pay the return shipping and then they refund you. That's an upfront cost you'll have to fight for, and they will quibble about the huge sum you quote for that shipping. But it's a two-way game: buyers often come up with spurious problems expecting the vendor to let them keep they thing rather than pay to have it shipped back. So you can see that having the punter pay for the shipping, at least initially, weeds out a lot of scamming from the other side.

[SilverSolder]

They aren't worthless, they are alternative implementations of ISL21009 with perhaps slightly worse performance and with a neat picture on them which traditionally appeared on ISL21009 and which doesn't mean anything because it surely isn't a registered trademark or anything of that sort
[...]

LOL!      I guess with a sufficiently open mind*), they could claim something like "the product does actually work for many use cases (including being a door stop in a doll house etc.), so it does not depart 100% from the description"!

*) A mind so open that the contents are in danger of falling out!

It is actually not at all legitimate for seller to ask buyer to pay for the disputed goods to be shipped back.

Check any advert and the chances are that it will say "Buyer pays return shipping". But regardless of that, they can still screw you over by insisting you pay the return shipping and then they refund you. That's an upfront cost you'll have to fight for, and they will quibble about the huge sum you quote for that shipping. But it's a two-way game: buyers often come up with spurious problems expecting the vendor to let them keep they thing rather than pay to have it shipped back. So you can see that having the punter pay for the shipping, at least initially, weeds out a lot of scamming from the other side.

What they are trying to catch there are the usual reasons for buyers sending stuff back....   they changed their mind,  bought by mistake,  dropped it on the floor, outright scam attempts, etc. etc.  In those cases, it is obviously right that buyer pays return shipping.  But this does not apply when buyer is well behaved, while seller is clearly and outrageously in breach of their obligations as defined by terms of the contract, which includes the item description! 

Since the contract is now broken, seller is still the legal owner of the goods and buyer is still the legal owner of the money that seller received in advance on the expectation that seller's part of the bargain would be fulfilled.  It beggars belief that seller should be entitled to get even more money from buyer at this point, given that they are already in possession of a pile of the buyer's cash that they are not entitled to??

The dispute team at AliExpress obviously know all this full well.   Their problem is to determine who is trying to scam who, based on the communications and the quality of the evidence presented.  That is all they have to go on, so putting in the time and getting that right is what it all boils down to!

[PlainName]

But this does not apply when buyer is well behaved

How do you know they are a well-behaved buyer? Scams work because other people are taken in, and the only reason you think well-behaved buyers are discernible is because you are one. From the seller's perspective it's completely the opposite, and they consider well-behaved sellers to be just as obvious to buyers.

One well-known scam on Ebay is to buy, say, a motherboard to replace the one you've broken (maybe screwed over the CPU pins when doing an upgrade). Then you send your old one back pretending it's the new one and complain that the vendor has sold you bad stuff. As the Ebay rep who only sees the buyers photos and has the vendors word that it was OK when sent out, honest, who are you going to believe? The vendor more often than not loses out in those cases.

Why should Aliexpress be different? Well, obviously, it is cheaper and the shipping is peanuts out so vendors can basically give the stuff away, but it costs a fortune to return. So vendors are better off writing off stuff instead of paying for returns. Given the toerags that populate this world, and that the majority of Aliexpress customers are there precisely to save a few bob, what are the chances that they are all going to be straight-up guys?

[SilverSolder]

But this does not apply when buyer is well behaved

How do you know they are a well-behaved buyer?

I think we are having a violent agreement! 

That is indeed the question - who is "well behaved"?

To avoid looking like a scammer, evidence is everything, to influence the balance of probabilities your way.  Being clear and well documented (pictures, videos) just works!  Having a long history of buying stuff with no problems is also important!

That's why I keep banging on about the need to go above and beyond in preparing your complaint:   be super clear,  super well documented, lots of pictures and videos, make sure some show using the stuff on your desk / in your lab area (making you look more genuine).

At the end of the day, it is going to be a judgement call.   If you didn't communicate well,  or if your account is new, or if your account doesn't have a good track record of "well behaved buyer", you increase the risk of falling into either the 'scammer' or 'unreasonable idiot' category by default, because - as you correctly point out - there are a lot of scummy buyers as well as sellers!

Scams work because other people are taken in, and the only reason you think well-behaved buyers are discernible is because you are one. From the seller's perspective it's completely the opposite, and they consider well-behaved sellers to be just as obvious to buyers.

One well-known scam on Ebay is to buy, say, a motherboard to replace the one you've broken (maybe screwed over the CPU pins when doing an upgrade). Then you send your old one back pretending it's the new one and complain that the vendor has sold you bad stuff. As the Ebay rep who only sees the buyers photos and has the vendors word that it was OK when sent out, honest, who are you going to believe? The vendor more often than not loses out in those cases.

Why should Aliexpress be different? Well, obviously, it is cheaper and the shipping is peanuts out so vendors can basically give the stuff away, but it costs a fortune to return. So vendors are better off writing off stuff instead of paying for returns. Given the toerags that populate this world, and that the majority of Aliexpress customers are there precisely to save a few bob, what are the chances that they are all going to be straight-up guys?

I totally agree.   Most scammers are not geniuses, though (or they would be doing something else, lol).  There is a limit to how well they can keep up the charade against an opponent that's on the ball.

Hence, it can make sense to video the (un)packing of the box, showing the part numbers,  showing you turning it on, etc..   

I've recently had bad luck with two eBay cell phones in a row (both had internal tech issues, one was in a boot loop, the other had lost its wifi/bluetooth connectivity).  I had no problems whatsoever returning these items for a full refund,  with shipping paid by the seller...  but I have thousands of positive feedback over 20 years, and my complaints are always straightforward, to the point, and always includes pictures.

I recall once buying a heat gun from a Chinese seller on eBay.  He sent a 220V model with a US 115V plug on it...   To win that case,  I had to explain to both seller and eBay case managers why that idea was never going to work...    There was no way to ship it back economically even if it was an "honest mistake", and there was no way for me to make use of the item. - It was a total loss for the seller, and I threw it in the recycling.

[PlainName]

Most scammers are not geniuses, though

Got to agree with you there - I reckon some people get taken in not because the scam is unobvious but because it's so obvious no-one would possibly try it.

[magic]

New judgment has arrived.



Still not counterfeit, but apparently the defect is now considered more severe
So I get to keep my lot of ten eight dodgy REF02 for $2 as requested

[SilverSolder]

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

I wonder why they seem so reluctant to make the "counterfeit" call. 

What might be happening is that they know that in a high proportion of purchases of that particular product from that seller, the customers are happy with their purchases and never complain!

So maybe they just stick with "Defective" for the ones that do complain...   and not worry so much about the silly Western obsession with "genuineness" and "trademarks" and other semi-religious nuttery! 

[magic]

It appears that they have strict internal proof standards for that, and I would guess it may be for two reasons:
1. it always looks better for AliExpress if they don't have too many successful counterfeit claims
2. it's a ToS violation and it triggers penalties for the seller, which makes it Serious Business™ - more so than some random complaint that something is out of spec

I received more comprehensive (and more comprehensible) proof guide in another dispute two years ago, attached. It looks like they mean "counterfeit" in the narrow sense of trademark infringement and require:
1. a photograph of the infringing branding on the auction or on the product - that's why sellers routinely blur out logos on auction photos
2. a proof that the branding is protected - "inspection or statement from the owner" whatever that is, dunno if a link to Intersil website or some trademark registry would suffice
3. evidence that the product is fake

The good news is that you don't really need any of that. You can post die pictures and get 90% or 100% (the previous case) refund based on "appearance not as described".


(More seriously, I also posted noise spectrum - that's the "parameters not as described" part.)
I think you have converted me - I will always select "item not as described" and just dump whatever evidence I have. None of that matters and it can only complicate the process.

[SilverSolder]

So, does AliExpress let you enter "Parameter not as described", "Appearance not as described", etc.?  - or is that something the claims team made out of your complaint?

I like the idea of just comparing it with the datasheet, showing some parameters that it fails.  Nicely scientific and indisputable!  AliExpress can call it "defective" and be happy...  seller gets away with just refunding the customer instead of getting banned...   the customer is happy because he got refunded....   winners all round! 

[magic]

That's what appears in their "judgments". I posted the buyer's options earlier.
It all makes no sense, which makes sense I guess, since it's Ali...

[SilverSolder]

That's what appears in their "judgments". I posted the buyer's options earlier.
It all makes no sense, which makes sense I guess, since it's Ali...

Good outcome overall.

The world would definitely be worse without places like Ali,  just like it would be worse if all girls were "Good"! 

[magic]

Has 2023 just passed with no updates here?
Well, at least I began 2024 with new AliExpress scams

Scam 1. The photograph showed 3pcs of the item and had "3pcs" written on it. However, at the bottom of the description the seller wrote: "contents: 1pc". I was very tempted by this offer because 3pcs was exactly what I needed and other offers were either 1pc or 5pcs, both ending up costing me. So I ignored the description, assuming it was a copy-paste error when the seller created the offer. Surely no one would be stupid enough to actually try such blatant scam on AliExpress, right?

Wrong. The seller delivered 1pc and then insisted that this is exactly what I ordered. I got my 66% refund without problems, but I realized that the seller could make it harder by claiming that I received 3pcs - my only "evidence" was a photograph of the opened package. This gave me an idea to video record unpacking all AliExpress packages, which came right in time for:

Scam 2. I ordered an obscure discontinued IC from some dodgy seller and received a small cardboard box. This surprised me, because they normally send chips in envelopes. Turned out, the box was filled with some more cardboard and nothing else. I uploaded a video of opening the box and going through all the cardboard and got a refund right away.


Lesson: record opening packages from suspicious auctions, suspicious sellers, and packages that look suspicious. Or simply all packages, for a good measure.

To end on a positive note, I ordered about a dozen things on 11.11 and BW sales, from $1 USB cables to $100 optics, and everything except the above arrived without surprises.

[brucehoult]

Has 2023 just passed with no updates here?

In fact 2022 also. It is more than two years since the previous message.

Well, at least I began 2024 with new AliExpress scams

I don't know why people focus on AliExpress here. They are just an order-taking platform for 3rd party vendors, no different to Amazon or Shopify.

I buy something from AliExpress probably at least once a month, often every week, and I've never had a problem. But then I look carefully at who the actual vendor is, and am mostly buying from the official Sipeed store, the official WCH store and so on, not some random vendor selling the same item as 20 other random vendors.

Lesson: record opening packages from suspicious auctions, suspicious sellers, and packages that look suspicious. Or simply all packages, for a good measure.

Possibly a good idea.

The only similar problem I've had to what you described was when I ordered a pack of two USA power strips from Amazon so I can plug my various items (often from AliExpress, where NZ plug is not usually an option) in using just one US->NZ adaptor for all devices, not one each.

The pack arrived with just one power strip in it.

The options to resolve the problem were weird. It was something like 1) return the faulty item to the USA at my own expense and they would send another one, or 2) dispose of the faulty item and they would issue a refund.

It seemed obviously better to get a full refund, keep and use the one power strip that arrived, and use the refund to make a new order (or not).

[magic]

I don't know why people focus on AliExpress here.

Because it's a thread about AliExpress, documenting weird issues there and sometimes asking for advice.

I also buy various stuff on AE and most of it comes without issues or I wouldn't bother otherwise. This thread is about those "other" cases - sometimes I simply need stuff which is sold by "20 random vendors" I stress that so far I have had 100% success rate with AE buyer protection, though on some occasions it took me several tries and some effort to figure out what they want from me.

The options to resolve the problem were weird. It was something like 1) return the faulty item to the USA at my own expense and they would send another one, or 2) dispose of the faulty item and they would issue a refund.

AE would be more reasonable in this case, as they have no problems with "keep it and get a partial refund" if you can explain what's missing or how the value is in any other way lower than declared by the seller.

[tooki]

Well, at least I began 2024 with new AliExpress scams

I don't know why people focus on AliExpress here. They are just an order-taking platform for 3rd party vendors, no different to Amazon or Shopify.

The thread title might be a subtle clue… 

[thm_w]

Scam 1. The photograph showed 3pcs of the item and had "3pcs" written on it. However, at the bottom of the description the seller wrote: "contents: 1pc". I was very tempted by this offer because 3pcs was exactly what I needed and other offers were either 1pc or 5pcs, both ending up costing me. So I ignored the description, assuming it was a copy-paste error when the seller created the offer. Surely no one would be stupid enough to actually try such blatant scam on AliExpress, right?

Wrong. The seller delivered 1pc and then insisted that this is exactly what I ordered. I got my 66% refund without problems, but I realized that the seller could make it harder by claiming that I received 3pcs - my only "evidence" was a photograph of the opened package. This gave me an idea to video record unpacking all AliExpress packages, which came right in time for:

Why risk their rating and a bad review over a few dollars profit (assuming they are an established store)? Its likely them just using whatever photo they have on hand or a simple mistake. I get its frustrating but if there is any ambiguity at all, send the seller a message.
If its a high value item, ok, might be worth it for them. But as you learned, always record opening the high value packages.

See this seller, select 5pc and it still shows 10pc at the top: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33012530737.html probably a mistake.

This sort of thing happens on amazon all the time btw, though obviously easier to get a refund there. Can happen the opposite way too, the listing might be for 10pc but priced at the cost of 1 item... seller loses out.

[magic]

IMO a deliberate scam, because no one else offers 3pcs and no one else has a photo with "3pcs" written on it, so it doesn't look like a copy-paste mistake.

They must have created this image themselves and made it the default photo so that the offer appears this way in search results (and that's why I ended up there). There are no options for different item counts (nor any other options) and "contains 1pc" is buried at bottom of the description.

They haven't removed or changed the listing after my refund request. And now that you mentioned store ratings, I checked their negative feedback and found that somebody else already complained about similar issue in another offer. Looks like it's their way of doing business. Their positive feedback ratio is 91%, btw, which is rather poor for AE.

Yeah, maybe I could have predicted it with more research in advance and perhaps should have asked for clarification, but I was in a hurry and naively assumed that there are some thresholds of malice and stupidity that no one would cross

[bitwelder]

Yesterday I had an order cancelled mid-way by Aliexpress itself, for something I ordered  a couple of weeks ago, and that was *apparently* showing some updates in parcel tracking. Their explaination was:
"For your security, this order has been closed and refunded due to an invalid tracking number provided by the seller. You'll receive a refund within 3-20 business days. We're sorry for any inconvenience caused and the seller will be warned according to platform regulation."

[HF8V]

I had no problems with Aliexpress althought their bids are often deliberately bad discribed. Sometimes it is difficult to understand what you are really buying. But even in such case they refund me 50% money without problem and without need to resend product (osciloscope probe)...

Previously I bought things on polish Allegro and I can can assure you that any polish seller will never refund you any money, he would be argue for every PLN.

[thm_w]

Yesterday I had an order cancelled mid-way by Aliexpress itself, for something I ordered  a couple of weeks ago, and that was *apparently* showing some updates in parcel tracking. Their explaination was:
"For your security, this order has been closed and refunded due to an invalid tracking number provided by the seller. You'll receive a refund within 3-20 business days. We're sorry for any inconvenience caused and the seller will be warned according to platform regulation."

That is a good sign if they are clamping down on fake tracking numbers.

I had no problems with Aliexpress althought their bids are often deliberately bad discribed. Sometimes it is difficult to understand what you are really buying. But even in such case they refund me 50% money without problem and without need to resend product (osciloscope probe)...

Previously I bought things on polish Allegro and I can can assure you that any polish seller will never refund you any money, he would be argue for every PLN.

What was the probe?
If its poorly described then buy from another seller. Should be tons of scope probes available with clearly labeled bandwidth, connector, etc.

[HF8V]

I wanted another item but it seems I got osciloscope probe for twice much higher price. But I wrote to seller and he refund me half of money without problem. In Poland this would be problematic as I know some sellers. So Aliexpress is not so bad, but of course some sellers are not honest. Always read comments.