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America in the same economic situation as Greece
Posted by
Lawsen
on 17 Jun, 2011 06:50
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#1 Reply
Posted by
Sionyn
on 17 Jun, 2011 14:47
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not to mention all government bonds china bought
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#2 Reply
Posted by
vk6zgo
on 17 Jun, 2011 15:39
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A wise man(not a very nice man,but wise) once said:-
"Power grows out of the barrel of a gun"!
The USA is still a military superpower,so the rest of the world will tend to give it a certain amount of leeway that
they wouldn't give to lesser powers such as Greece & Australia.
Australia used to sell large quantities of grain to the old USSR,never really worrying whether the Soviets could pay.
In fact, they never did default,& paid us in good old American greenbacks.
Around this time, the Ruble was on par with the Aussie dollar.
When the USSR collapsed,& was no longer a superpower their economy also collapsed.
We became a bit more cagey about selling grain to what was left of the USSR!
VK6ZGO
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This news story is comparing Greece and U.S.A.:
http://money.cnn.com/2011/06/16/news/economy/greek_us_national_debt/index.htm?section=money_mostpopular&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fmoney_mostpopular+%28Most+Popular%29
Some regions are paradise compared with Greece. Stockton, California is still in a slump and misery and similar to some poorer agriculture villages and fishing villages in Greece. It just depends upon where you are at and your personal situation. I am fortunate that i have my household to care of me, for now. I have to do a lot of chores, IT support, and paint.
Lawsen
Stockton is always in a slump. It's the armpit of the central valley.
Didn't read the article, but to do a large scale comparison of the US economy to any other country is a tough thing to do. Overall, yeah sure things are down. But it's amazing the breadth of scale you'll see across the country. I make a clean 6 figure salary, but out here in Cali that means I'm holding on with my fingernails to maintain a middle to lower middle class. My brother lives in one of the most depressed regions of the country (Canton, Ohio) and between both he and his wife, make maybe 2/3 of what I do. They have every bit as much house and property (more actually since they have a basement) as I do, yet they are living pretty damned comfy. They have no problems finding the cash to do upgrades they want on the house, hobbies, vacations, etc. Only reason they have that salary in that area is because of who they work for and the fact they moved out there from Cali, but kept their Cali wages.
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yes i know what a-sic means. thats one of the main reason i leave engineering job in big city years ago. i never regret that decision, even though i could get more salary if i stick in big city, but there's more than the money and "matter"... ie peace...full of mind. guess what, with our "little" salary, now we can live in semi-d house, where most people in city live in apartment (no matter how charming they are, the apartment)
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#5 Reply
Posted by
gregariz
on 17 Jun, 2011 19:08
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I'm a bit more of an optimist. Alot of US debts are in US dollars so it has been printing money even if it devalues the currency badly compared to others.
The US has alot going for it... it just needs to get rid of some of the "made in china" crap and I think it will do either through keeping its currency very low for quite a while or some other activity to "encourage" the chinese to inflate their exchange rate. Otherwise sooner or later inflation in china may also deliver an end to cheap chinese goods.
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#6 Reply
Posted by
firewalker
on 17 Jun, 2011 20:23
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No, USA is in a much better position. USA exports goods, Greece doesn't.
Also USA can blame al-Qaeda.
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I'm a bit more of an optimist. Alot of US debts are in US dollars so it has been printing money even if it devalues the currency badly compared to others.
This trick does not work any more, printing money etc etc ..
Today it was in the news that the American "help" to Egypt, it cost 1 million dollars per day.
Even if you export the Fluke factory it self , there is no way to get such money.
I am an positive thinking person and all, but here we have bankers who controls the American army.
And this must to stop.
The Army belongs to the nation who owns it.
Not to the bankers.
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#8 Reply
Posted by
Alex
on 17 Jun, 2011 20:58
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See you at Syntagma square Kyriako.
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See you at Syntagma square Kyriako.
Yes I have be there many times, but the TV cameras was deliberately missing.
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yes i know what a-sic means. thats one of the main reason i leave engineering job in big city years ago. i never regret that decision, even though i could get more salary if i stick in big city, but there's more than the money and "matter"... ie peace...full of mind. guess what, with our "little" salary, now we can live in semi-d house, where most people in city live in apartment (no matter how charming they are, the apartment)
I hear you, and agree 100%. Problem is - the whole friggin state is on a completely different curve than the rest of the country. I don't live in the city. The "town" I live in has a population of like 1000 or less. as do the next 2 towns over. I'm on a one acre plot with chickens and a goat while my neighbor has 15 acres and a herd of cattle. We're in the foothills of the Sierra Nevadas. Everything here is still stupid expensive. So if I want to move, it'll have to be a few states over.
Back to the bigger issue at hand, I did get a chance to at least skim the article. The biggest problem with this country going into debt is not what they take in or where the revenue comes from, it's what they spend. When this country was founded, Ben Franklin is quoted as saying "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." Every year it gets worse and worse. There are no good candidates to vote for anymore, so the ones that do get into office can't keep their hands out of the till. An honest person can't get anywhere in politics in this country. The system is riddled with lawyers and lobbyists for "special interest" groups. It'll take a pretty massive hammer to clean things up. Most recently there was some major cutting going on with the budget put under the microscope. We did away with funding for a lot of politicians pet projects. But all that still barely makes a dent. The two biggest sources of where the countries money goes is the military and social security. Until they get it straightened out on how to fix even just one of those, it won't matter what else is done and a declining economy makes it worse, but isn't the cause.
As to the comment about exchanges with China and the rate we import and all that. Yep. We're already seeing similar dealings with India. Used to be we could contract out engineering work to India for a fraction of what it cost to keep an engineer local. However, that has started to change. The balance of things has been shifting and yeah sure, there's still a savings to hire a group of engineers in India, but the cost difference is no where what it used to be. The bigger issue with taking in so many imports these days from the likes of China is we've simply lost the ability to do so much of our own manufacturing. The skills and know-how just aren't as prevalent any more. Soo many people in this country, especially in the last couple decades, have put themselves "above" doing blue collar work that even if the opportunities are there to go work in a factory, many people don't want to. 10% unemployment doesn't seem to make many of those people think twice about it either. Pretty scary. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely lots of people that would kill for a steady blue collar job right now. However, the overall mindshift in the country has been to get away from that. Couple that with the idea that our economy has shifted so heavily towards everything being "disposable" (ie: cheap crap, or built just good enough to last until the new model comes out) the masses here don't even see what has happened.
My only hope is eventually the masses here get tired of everything always being made cheap and cheesy. Myself and a few friends I know have gotten tired of it. I'm willing to pay a few extra bucks if I can get a product that's quality and will last and I won't have to buy another one until I feel the need (rather than it breaking / quits working). But those quality products can sometimes be really really hard to find. However, most of the time I do find them....guess where they're made.
Ok, enough of the disjointed ranting. Gotta get back to work now.
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#11 Reply
Posted by
Lawsen
on 17 Jun, 2011 22:50
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America is just way larger than Greece. The fear is over the governments do not have enough money to keep it going. It has been a topic on local to international levels. The bank's money is insured by our governments. It is not have manufacturing or jobs, that is another topic, probably not for a technical blog about making a electronics toy chime from the bread board to a soldered circuit board and packaged inside an art and good design enclosure. The U.S.A. government almost have to shut down, until the money issues are resolved. The U.S.A. banks just voted themselves a bail out package it was planned, before the new President with a different background than previously got chosen in. The banks, insurance, and automobile companies did not care who is in office, as long as they get money to repay their debts and allowed to re-organized. The Lincoln Memorial, Smithsonian, and Library of Congress almost have to shut down. It came close and was adverted. California was not so fortunate, parts of DMV has been shut down, that registration and smog check papers are delayed. I do not live in Greece, but I am sure there are some service reduced. California still faces government layoffs. The problem is simple, there is not enough jobs in the western world to keep every one healthy. The problem in the eastern world, China is there are too many jobs, but the wages are too low to be much help with inflation. One could be working and still sleep in a cardboard box. China has two extremes, really wealthy and really poor like the I Pod girl at Foxconn. She does all the electronics. I am not sure that I want to work in an I Pod assembly line, after the university experience. I would get bored at snapping those parts together. Some products will never come back to America, because the higher ups sold it to a company in China like the IBM Think Pad by Lenovo. Lenovo is a Chinese owned company. IBM Think Pad is a part of China. Americans are going to have to make something that has not been sold off to a foreign company to make. Americans are going to have to re-think what is work and re-think about new places to apply for work. I think the recession/depression is going to make me and everyone stronger and better, because we will endure hardships and scarcity. The military is not going to bring the wealth back for us, but maybe a few that invested in the lands they occupied. Winning in Afghanistan for that pipe line is not going to help me, because that energy is going to be used in the U.S.A. and the profits are not going to come here. Making Iraq ours or 51TH State is not going to help me. Iraqi oil will run dry like Iranian oil or Egyptian oil. Egyptian oil went dry in 1972. These agendas are for the large businesses that influences our government. I remembered when the G4 Power Mac came from Elk Grove, California. It did had a defect, a surface mounted capacity solder was fractured by insertion into the AGP slot. I removed the graphics card and carefully place a drop of solder and checked it with my plastic Zeiss stereo magnifier and it is repaired. The new Power Macs are from China by Foxconn. It is not going to come back. We have to do something else.
Greece is not going to be like it was, that they will have to do something else and live with austerity to save their economy. Greece might recover quicker than the U.S.A., because it is a smaller country and less social problems. America is a large country that Greece is a small country. These are advantages here on both places.
Lawsen
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#12 Reply
Posted by
Time
on 17 Jun, 2011 23:24
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its funny when i remember. our gov*ment say our economy is ok compared to somalia and our fuel is cheaper than singapore's. somalia is among the poorest country of course our economy is better, singapore doesnt have oil reservoir like we do, of course their oil is more expensive, they have to import every drop of it. our economy is said to be better, but we dont get our annual bonus like before, our oil and food price keep rising. gov*ment waste millions on so called country's landmark building, they get their crony contractors in. we only get so called incentive when the election season is coming close, myr50 notes flying around to villagers who only vote who they get the money from... clever gov*ment.
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#14 Reply
Posted by
RCMR
on 17 Jun, 2011 23:56
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Having been born in the 1950s and grown up through the 1960s, I recall when being "rich" meant having a car that wasn't at least 12-15 years old and I also recall that when TV arrived, a set was a *major* investment -- to the extent that it was several years before our middle-class family was able to afford one.
Luxuries were few and far between -- chicken was a "treat" and we never dined out, enjoying instead a good home-cooked meal which included a range of veges grown in the back garden.
Even radios were so expensive that we only had one in the entire house and being able to afford a new vinyl LP (33&1/3 RPM) for the record-player was a treat.
Only the very rich had boats and holiday-homes and could afford a brand-new car. Kids walked or cycled to school because dad would take "the" car to work. Mum had to walk into town pushing the pram and walk back home again with her shopping.
Compare that to today...
Most families have a couple of new (or near-new) cars. There are often a couple of flat-screen TVs in the house, plus iPhones, iPods, mobile phones and a raft of other consumer electronics.
Many middle-class families have jet-skis, boats, dirt-bikes and other toys; we eat out regularly, we dine on chicken, ham and other foods without thinking about what they once cost.
And now, thanks to China, we can afford a huge range of toys and baubles that were previously out of our grasp.
So, the question one probably has to ask is....
Where has all the extra money come from to pay for this massive increase in our standard of living?
Has our increased productivity alone been enough to pay for this?
Personally, I don't think so.
Technology has improved the productivity of the average worker -- but not enough to cover the massive increase in spending.
The reality is that we're now borrowing far more than we ever did and most countries are actually living well beyond their means. Their spending exceeds their income by a huge margin.
This "spend more than you earn" situation works fine -- for as long as the lenders are prepared to lend but what happens when they decide to call in those loans?
Well you get the big financial crashes -- as it is suddenly realised that a "promise to pay" isn't worth the paper it's written on if the borrower has no money or no more borrowing power left with which to service those loan repayments.
I'd also be keeping an eagle-eye on China over the next few years.
We (in the West) have effectively been borrowing huge sums from China and living off the productivity of *their* workers.
China is probably now in a position where it could walk in and take over the USA -- simply by calling in all its debt. No war, no military engagements -- simply a financial transaction. China has already bought and paid for the USA and a number of other Western nations.
Of course we know that the USA would never allow the beancounters to sign over that nation's sovereignty to China -- but it could be the catalyst for some bad times ahead.
Good on the Chinese for working hard. Shame on everyone else for spending so recklessly and creating the potential for such a huge economic crash.
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No, USA is in a much better position. USA exports goods, Greece doesn't.
You got it in one. And not specifically Greece, look at the UK once the manufacturing hub of the planet, now they produce nothing of note. The shinyheads with their economic forecasting and statistical models have reeked havoc.
For all it's current woes, (and there are many) USA still has the capability to produce stuff their own population and the rest of the world want to buy. The same financial genius that afflicts the rest of the planet has turn Australia into a quarry,good times relatively but a very precarious position to be in.
All the charts and graphs and prediction in the world wont change the grandma maths of "you cant spent what you dont earn", credit just means you spend more for the same things, you still need to earn it.
Nationally you can blame the Germans, the USA, the Jews, space creatures from the planet Zarg and any number of outside influences, but end of the day for democratic countries at least, real blame lays fairly and squarely at their own doorsteps. Blame politicians for sure, just remember who empowered them. You the voters.
If we choose to elect film stars, blind ideologues, washed up sports stars etc then we all deserve the outcome this delivers.
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it goes back to who responsible to keep the balance, ie the ruler, the one who propagate the "propaganda" to spend more of less. we've been told to save the money, buy wisely not excessively, we are told to reduce our sugar consumption because of health risk etc etc. but we dont see that happening to high class people, more and more big cars and more projects going on. we have "roads hole" fixed that only last for few weeks, and they (contractors) keep fixing it few times a year, what a waste of money, i wonder how stupid the people who choose the clumsy contractors, and the higher level let it lose like nothing happened, because they are the same corrupted up there.
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You the voters.
you maybe frequently heard what is the "ghost voltage", but "ghost voters" is pretty common here. we have an "election commision" that supposed to be fully isolated from gov*ment, but that is just a "fantasy", you name it, police, judges in court, tv media all are in control of the "supreme chancellor". the opposition who try to uncover the truth try to make a public speaking, the police will come and stop them become they dont have "the grant", why? because nobody will give it to opposition, but when the gov*ment party try to public speak, they have police and "fru" covering them, there is no "grant" issue.
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RCMR in our times we have to face something new.
And this called as mass production = tremendous low cost = Jobs made by robots and machines = no job for you.
All the planet had this fine idea, that every single function it must become as automated.
You get your ticket for the bus from a machine, you cancel the ticket in the bus by a machine.
From were you will find the cash to get the ticket ? its your problem !!
The society responded to this challenge by sending their boys to college and Uni so to become better educated,
so to find a job as high class engineers or highly trained personals.
I never got to uni , but I was raised from a trained professional ( call me lucky ).
The bankers who does not care for the American or Greek or German kids, moved their business to foreign lands in Asia.
Even so again the robots does the job, very few trained people working in those factories, and they do not enjoy life with what they get payed.
China has the most polluted atmosphere worldwide, and if they keep it that way, they heading to destruction.
China follows the steps of the west society but with some delay , and with some delay they will get to the point that we are today.
That's all , they will face the same dead end, just a bit later.
And by the way, if you think that the bad atmosphere is not a problem,
check what happens in Japan today, the destruction of this nuclear reactor, kills anything green in the gardens and the industries too.
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#19 Reply
Posted by
gregariz
on 18 Jun, 2011 01:24
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We (in the West) have effectively been borrowing huge sums from China and living off the productivity of *their* workers.
Chin up! I don't think this was an accident, more like a conscience decision to rely on financial instruments rather than industry. That recipe served England well for a very very long time until the Dollar took over the Stirling as the worlds reserve. Its just alot easier to print money than to make stuff. Of course the rationalists always claimed this was the only way to bring third world countries out of poverty and that was probably true to some extent but the reality is that China has been essentially selling legalized slavery for the last 30 odd years.
China is probably now in a position where it could walk in and take over the USA -- simply by calling in all its debt. No war, no military engagements -- simply a financial transaction. China has already bought and paid for the USA and a number of other Western nations.
One saving grace would be that the US has not so much borrowed from the Chinese, rather the Chinese have bought huge amounts of our govt bonds (debt) as a hedge against things going bad back in China. This is a bit different as if the US dollar is destroyed so is the Chinese investment. Its a better option for the US than printing money but we've done that too and so the low US dollar has scared the Chinese enough to begin to diversify. I'm not sure who's really in control but it seems to me that its not all in China's favor.
Of course we know that the USA would never allow the beancounters to sign over that nation's sovereignty to China -- but it could be the catalyst for some bad times ahead.
This period of time really reminds me of the scared frenzy that occurred in the 80's when the Japanese were hammering everyone. It didn't last and I don't think the Chinese miracle will last either. They've been working like absolute slaves now for a couple of decades and I think theres plenty of evidence now that they are getting sick of it. Inflation is on the rise and I don't think they can stop it. A relatively small number of people own stuff there now and I expect that will mean they will attempt to monopolize the money flow ie welcome to capitalism. But I think the bigger picture will be that China turns out to be an unworkable mess, the US just needs to wait it out. China's problem has always been there are just too many of the b*st*rds and there's no way around that fact. I just think they have probably already elevated about as many as will be elevated out of poverty. The world just doesn't need any more factories. So unless China can get domestic demand driving their economy in the next decade or so they are going to be in trouble.
just my 2c
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China's problem has always been there are just too many of the b*st*rds and there's no way around that fact.
Hey you must be a true city boy, living in skyscraper and watching the people from above!!
China has an history of 5000 years , and your country only 200 .
The most people in China works as farmers, and this is what they do all those years.
Even in Greece the time that the economy was based totally in farming,
all the families was large, having 4 or 5 or 8 child's.
What happens to all of us today, it is the up-come of what we do in the last 30 years.
The lesson that the people had learned so far is that Wars does not help any one.
The lesson that the bankers ( that are dressed up like political parties today) should get are that the people haves the control.
The banks have all ready all the money of this planet in their hands.
They do not care for more money, they care to control the nations.
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#21 Reply
Posted by
gregariz
on 18 Jun, 2011 02:56
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Hey you must be a true city boy, living in skyscraper and watching the people from above!!
I grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere.
China has an history of 5000 years , and your country only 200 .
I remember by grandmother telling me of the Chinese looking for trees in Australia that would grow in desert conditions decades ago because they had stripped their country side of trees and turned it into a desert. Too few people I guess
My point was simply about overpopulation and how do you bring 1.3 billion people up to the middle class level in a single country and keep it together? Its never been done and I don't think they can but hope they prove me wrong.
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My point was simply about overpopulation and how do you bring 1.3 billion people up to the middle class level in a single country and keep it together? Its never been done and I don't think they can but hope they prove me wrong.
They will turn all their city's in to casinos, like the Americans did.
Do not get me wrong, I am not hostile to you, every human has in it an 50% angel and a 50% devil.
What makes us capable to have this conversation, is that we control the 50% of the devil part.
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#23 Reply
Posted by
gregariz
on 18 Jun, 2011 04:19
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Do not get me wrong, I am not hostile to you, every human has in it an 50% angel and a 50% devil.
What makes us capable to have this conversation, is that we control the 50% of the devil part.
We are all guessing... and I have a thick skin!
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#24 Reply
Posted by
Zero999
on 18 Jun, 2011 09:31
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My point was simply about overpopulation and how do you bring 1.3 billion people up to the middle class level in a single country and keep it together? Its never been done and I don't think they can but hope they prove me wrong.
Same as the US, exploit the resources in other countries which is why China is currently investing heavily in Africa.