Author Topic: crApple's disposable products  (Read 48265 times)

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Offline timelessbeingTopic starter

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crApple's disposable products
« on: June 16, 2012, 10:33:37 pm »
As people who "don't turn it on ... take it apart!" you may find this article interesting.

http://ifixit.org/2763/the-new-macbook-pro-unfixable-unhackable-untenable/



Pretty shady business practice if you ask me. Imagine if auto makers started assembling cars with "Pentalobe" screws, fusing consumable parts like oil filters to the engine block, and other such nonsense.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 11:05:56 pm by timelessbeing »
 

Offline bullet308

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Re: Apple's disposable products
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2012, 10:59:33 pm »
They used to claim that Microsoft "welded the hood shut" on Windows visa vis Linux.

Apple has apparently decided to apply this notion even more literally. :-/
>>>BULLET>>>
 

Offline digsys

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2012, 11:56:16 pm »
What's the DSO to her left, can't quite make it out? And what's a chick doing with a DSO? Something's fishy :-)
Hello <tap> <tap> .. is this thing on?
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2012, 12:01:04 am »
What's the DSO to her left, can't quite make it out? And what's a chick doing with a DSO? Something's fishy :-)

Looks a hell of a lot like a Rigol DS1000D series to me.
 

Offline Dawn

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Re: Apple's disposable products
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2012, 12:03:33 am »
What's really new here? Product sustainability has been eroding since the 90's once SMT components began to dominate electronics. As early as '91, I was receiving service manuals with the disclaimer that the equipment was designed to be serviced at board level only. Decades old dealerships were progressively locked out of component level repair information and parts unless they undertook the costs of prohibitively expensive training and approved service equipment as depot level repair centers if they wanted to do board level rework at investment levels they couldn't justify. By the next decade, that evaporated.

   It's lucky if you can get component level service literature at all nowadays on just about anything. HP/Agilent included. Even corporate level service in many cases is no longer available after product termination. Just swaps for current, re-manufactured items or credits towards new equipment. It used to be service and parts should be available for 7 years after product retirement. It's not uncommon for a year old consumer item like a digital camera to be unrepairable due to no parts available by factory service and you're often lucky to get anything fixed after 3 years of owning it. It's often cheaper to buy new. The die was cast during the 80's. Just in time inventory controls, huge, line item minimums, house marked parts and custom, unidentified components. Service documentation that rarely matched to boards, completely potted boards, spot welded & swaged components, and riveted cases were already the harbingers of what was to come.

   Dealers unable to stand behind their sales and manufacturers hell bent on wrestling service from the dealers, meanwhile razor thin sales margins required moving vast amount of product. To who? Pissed off customers that were formally loyal to you for decades that would never buy your products or services again...and let everyone know it. Planned obsolescence has been around a while. Now that customers are essentially in the direct channel with manufacturers and subject to their whim, the spin is in. A whole generation is now been conditioned to get in line and upgrade to the next, latest, and greatest long before the end of the useful product life of the existing product. And they're falling over themselves to do it rather then express anger at the company for the premature obsolescence.

   An entire female styled consumer culture has been cultivated that questions nothing with regard to sustainability, only trend and social status. It's more important to fit in and have the next cool product then a roof over your head and plan for tomorrow.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 12:14:45 am by Dawn »
 

Offline Dawn

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2012, 12:16:55 am »
Hope this makes you happy now. Sometimes formatting in Word doesn't carry over via clip and paste.
 

Offline gxti

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Re: Apple's disposable products
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2012, 12:27:49 am »
Please, please fix your text formatting - I'm getting visual indigestion from that wall of text. If you fix it, I'll happily read it :)

Do you have a watchdog timer that resets your brain after 90 seconds? Because that is approximately the time elapsed between their post and yours. (As I write this I see it was reformatted, but really it was not at all hard to read...)

Quote from: Dawn
An entire female styled consumer culture has been cultivated that questions nothing with regard to sustainability, only trend and social status.

Status-seeking is a gender-neutral behavior. There are many men, and more than a few women, who would try to fix something if they could, but as a percentage of everyone the vast majority would still throw it in the garbage and calmly drive to the Mapple store to get a new one, on credit of course. Not to pick a huge nit or anything, it just sounded strange in my head to word it as "female styled".
 

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Re: Apple's disposable products
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2012, 12:36:03 am »
Do you have a watchdog timer that resets your brain after 90 seconds? Because that is approximately the time elapsed between their post and yours. (As I write this I see it was reformatted, but really it was not at all hard to read...)
Please don't argue with pedants it just encourages them.
 

Offline Dawn

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2012, 01:17:12 am »
@GXTI:  I'm currently reading two books on male marginalization and underachievement. The effects of mass media and marketing strategy is now principally oriented towards women. Females now either make or influence the decision of most all non-gender specific purchases. Unless you're selling non-fashion sporting goods, video gaming, or other items that are male specific, the advertisers are marketing to women as the principal demographic. Sell the female and the male will follow. Additionally, more and more males are adopting color, style, trend, entitlement, and time savings marketed products that have traditionally been targeted to women in that manner. Male marketing appealed to perceived need and quantitative specifications that logically presented a case why a product was better. Male's relative social status is hierarchal oriented, not horizontally where conformity is valued until recently.

Have you seen an Apple commercial lately? Visited an Apple Store? Attended a university lecture hall? Watched a television show or movie's product placement? Apple is hardly trying to appeal to traditional male marketing techniques. I hope this illustrates the point I'm trying to make.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2012, 01:52:29 am »
Apples business model is simple. Release a new model every year, design a product that lasts two years so it runs until the extended applecare runs out.
Half of apple users are afficionados that buy into the yearly update , so 300 charges is no problem. The other half is on the two yearly cycle....

So why do they need repairability? If it breaks hand it to apple and they give you a repaired one no questions asked ( under applecare plan )
Apple does not want an aftermarket repair service. They want to sell new ones !
They get no money from an outside company that fixes one.

So, from apples business perspective it all makes sense.

I'm not defending this stance. I too like something i can fix, but from a pure business perspective, you don't want that.

@dawn : cry me a river. Repairing smd boards does not require expensive equipment or costly training. Replacing a resistor is no more difficult than replacing a thru hole resistor. Granted, replacing a bga is a different story, but if you need to swap the central processor in a flat panel it is beyond economic repair any way... Swap the board in that case.

This boohoo cry of repairshops is, in many cases,  a 'we don't understand the technology anymore' masquearded as a ' it's uncervicable because the parts are small'. Move with the times. We are beyond a switching power supply made with 20 components. Its all PfC , autovoltage switch ,standby , high efficiency multi output these days. And it involves lots of chips. A lot of the repair techs could understand a schematic with 5 transistors.. Anything beyond that is over their head. Too bad ! Learn electronics. Unfortunately a lot of repair techs are only out to make a quick buck and have zero interest in electronics itself.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 01:58:43 am by free_electron »
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Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2012, 01:59:32 am »
@GXTI:  I'm currently reading two books on male marginalization and underachievement. The effects of mass media and marketing strategy is now principally oriented towards women. Females now either make or influence the decision of most all non-gender specific purchases. Unless you're selling non-fashion sporting goods, video gaming, or other items that are male specific, the advertisers are marketing to women as the principal demographic. Sell the female and the male will follow. Additionally, more and more males are adopting color, style, trend, entitlement, and time savings marketed products that have traditionally been targeted to women in that manner. Male marketing appealed to perceived need and quantitative specifications that logically presented a case why a product was better. Male's relative social status is hierarchal oriented, not horizontally where conformity is valued until recently.

Have you seen an Apple commercial lately? Visited an Apple Store? Attended a university lecture hall? Watched a television show or movie's product placement? Apple is hardly trying to appeal to traditional male marketing techniques. I hope this illustrates the point I'm trying to make.
I think the term you are looking for is "hipsters". It's just another fashion fad by another generation. Companies just go along with it and milk it dry as much as they can.

 

Offline IanB

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2012, 02:06:47 am »
@GXTI:  I'm currently reading two books on male marginalization and underachievement. The effects of mass media and marketing strategy is now principally oriented towards women. Females now either make or influence the decision of most all non-gender specific purchases. Unless you're selling non-fashion sporting goods, video gaming, or other items that are male specific, the advertisers are marketing to women as the principal demographic. Sell the female and the male will follow. Additionally, more and more males are adopting color, style, trend, entitlement, and time savings marketed products that have traditionally been targeted to women in that manner. Male marketing appealed to perceived need and quantitative specifications that logically presented a case why a product was better. Male's relative social status is hierarchal oriented, not horizontally where conformity is valued until recently.

Have you seen an Apple commercial lately? Visited an Apple Store? Attended a university lecture hall? Watched a television show or movie's product placement? Apple is hardly trying to appeal to traditional male marketing techniques. I hope this illustrates the point I'm trying to make.

There is nothing new or odd or surprising about this. It hasn't changed, it is the way it always has been. Men are not marginalized, they are logical and sensible and they know which side their bread is buttered.

Women have always been responsible for the home. In matters of furnishings, decor, appliances and clothes, women have always made the decisions. The menfolk go along with it because they have learned that women generally have good taste in matters of style, and it makes their life better and more comfortable if they let women have their head in such things.

If you have not realized this, I wonder where you have been living for the past hundred years?

Now let it come to a matter of function, like tools or gadgets or cars, then men are likely to assert their influence. But even with cars this will fail when a family is involved, and owning "his" and "her" cars might be the only way out. When it comes to "den" where men can control their environment they are likely to be banished to the shed or the garage.

Now I think it is true today that society is changing and traditional gender roles are being disrupted. The historical arrangement of a male/female partnership was a balance of give and take. Men gained a home and care and nurture and gave up wealth and freedom. Women gave up a degree of self-determination and gained support and security. In today's world, boundaries are being blurred and both men and women are individually seeking wealth and freedom and self-determination. Unfortunately in this brave new world I think both sides are also losing what they had.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2012, 05:46:22 am »
Repairing smd boards does not require expensive equipment or costly training. Replacing a resistor is no more difficult than replacing a thru hole resistor. Granted, replacing a bga is a different story, but if you need to swap the central processor in a flat panel it is beyond economic repair any way... Swap the board in that case.
I agree with this, and after seeing what laptop/mobile repair centers in east Asia can do, I'd say it's actually easier in many ways. No need to poke at parts with an iron, just blow with a hot air gun. There are many videos on YouTube showing the process.

Back to Apple: it's pretty clear they don't want their products serviced, ever since they started omitting PCB silkscreens and incorporating lots of proprietary ICs. With that practice, even relying on leaked schematics (how a lot of repair shops work now) it's difficult to perform troubleshooting.

I think at the opposite extreme would be the Chinese shanzhai, who use common parts in their products, sometimes recycled/salvaged (many would balk at this, but it does seem to be more environmentally friendly and unless damaged and/or specific cases like with flash, semiconductors don't "wear out"), and keep a somewhat "open" mentality about service. If something is not easily serviceable it's not due to deliberate attempts to make it so, but the quirks of less-than-perfect manufacturing process.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2012, 06:42:03 am »
I often use refurbished parts on my own equipment, or for repairs. Why buy a resistor when I have literally hundreds around in dead equipment, just choose the value and size to suit what is to hand. same for a lot of common parts, I just check electrolytics for ESR before reuse.
 

Offline PeteInTexas

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2012, 07:08:12 am »
Have you seen an Apple commercial lately? Visited an Apple Store? Attended a university lecture hall? Watched a television show or movie's product placement? Apple is hardly trying to appeal to traditional male marketing techniques. I hope this illustrates the point I'm trying to make.

Now that I think about it, I can't imagine the "Marlboro Man" or that Dos Equis guy selling iAnything.  Fortunately, these are mere fads.  Real Men will want their pants back.
 

Offline PeteInTexas

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Re: Apple's disposable products
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2012, 07:11:37 am »
   An entire female styled consumer culture has been cultivated that questions nothing with regard to sustainability, only trend and social status. It's more important to fit in and have the next cool product then a roof over your head and plan for tomorrow.

Here is an article with an interesting look at how computers were sold: http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/05/make-mainframes-not-war-how-mad-men-sold-computers-in-the-1960s-and-1970s/

 

Online Zero999

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2012, 07:55:22 am »
There's nothing wrong with using refurbished parts for your own projects, prototyping and repairs (as long as you tell the customer) but you shouldn't use them to make supposedly new equipment and sell it as such.

How would you feel if you bought a new car, only to discover the engine had already done 100,000 miles?

If recycled parts are used, a product can't be sold as new. It has to be labelled as refurbished.
 

Offline timelessbeingTopic starter

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2012, 08:02:54 am »
If it breaks hand it to apple and they give you a repaired one no questions asked.
I don't think even Apple wants to repair stuff. When my iPod battery was recalled for being explosive, they just sent me a new iPod. It's probably cheaper that way. And what happens with all the old glued together hardware? If it can't be properly broken down then all that fancy milled aluminum and tempered glass probably ends up in the landfill.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2012, 08:12:43 am »
If you buy a new car, often it has had hundreds of miles on it during shipping and dealership. Often the odometer is left disconnected until it is undergoing the final PDC before the customer gets it. The delivery drivers are not the gentlest drivers either, they get paid per vehicle, and it is hard to track them in a speed photo as there is generally only a dealer plate in the car, on the seat next to the driver.

When the work got a new van the PDC had left this disconnected, and i knew the vehicle had been driven to the dealership from the stock location point, around 500km round trip. 140 000 plus km later nothing wrong with the engine, though the body is rusting, along with all the common problems with the particular make and model.

As to the recycling of electronics, most will be recycled to China or East Africa, where it will be burnt to get the copper and lead out of it. Poor workers who are exploited for nothing, and get killed for it.
 

Offline saturation

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2012, 12:30:06 pm »
If a product was designed nearly perfect, there is nothing to repair except when damaged.  So, in the end, we go from component level, to board level to product level.  Its not really a problem since recycling electronics in the West tends to grind whole boards into slag, not reclaim parts, and then reclaim extracted metals like mining from dirt.

Now hacking is another issue, since these devices obsolete quickly and are available, its now depends if you've the time to get into it and see what you can do that the makers did not intend.  This how the IED in the Gulf got created or the popular Rigol 1052e hack, but one that is possible given knowledge and skills.  I'm not sure I'd dedicate my time to do this on the Apple platform, as the target audience would have to be technical too to deal with unforeseen glitches after a hack, so its better on Android which is open from the get go.



« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 02:33:19 am by saturation »
Best Wishes,

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Offline benemorius

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2012, 02:24:29 am »
Well it's certainly good to see people getting worked up about this, but I think it's critical that the energy has the appropriate focal point. This has nothing at all to do with Apple. What we're addressing here is a system flaw that pertains to the economic system itself. Capitalism served america rather well for a while (for better or worse) several decades ago, but that time is long gone. The system has been figured out, calculated, and played. And now it seems to have grown and spread to the world at large. You can't fault the companies - not even the ones who play the game exceedingly well. They are only taking part in an ongoing game and the game is simply being followed to its natural conclusion.

We aren't talking about "bad apples" here. These aren't a few rogue corporations who have become slightly or substantially more greedy than the rest. This did not happen because some evil person woke up one day and decided that he could serve himself best by bringing these laws and regulations about, and everyone else could just be damned. Rather, it happens because hundreds of people grow up every day and look at the world around them and say "Aha! So this is economics. Let me see what I can do to earn a healthy living." And so it begins. Rarely does anyone look around and say "Good god! This system we're using has developed some awful unintended consequences. Let me see if there might be a better way of doing this." And so it continues.

In america, we are indoctrinated by the schools from a very early age to see capitalism as the most bestest economic system that ever was. It is delivered hand-in-hand with the equally awesome concept of freedom, to the extent that they are seen as one and the same, and it is indeed a very potent doctrine. Hardly anyone imagines - nay - hardly anyone even imagines that they can imagine that one might conduct business any other way. In america, no one says "capitalism is the economic system that we use." Rather, they say "the economic system is called capitalism." See what I did there? It's not even a selection from a category. It just is. Green is the color. Chicken is the food. Agilent is the scope manufacturer. People don't even realize they're doing it. At the very most, you might get someone who says "so what do you want to use then... socialism?!?!" as if that were the only other option. In their mind, it is evidently both the only other option and in fact a non-option, once again leaving capitalism as "the" economic system.

In fact it has become so bad that american corporations are actually required by law to hold the pursuit of profit above even the public interest. A CEO has no choice but to stop wasting money by printing full schematics and repair manuals for his products because there are a dozen shareholders ready to fire him in a heartbeat the moment it's brought to their attention that they're "wasting" money on something which has no appreciable return on investment. He knows this, so naturally he stops printing the damn schematics. Where in the early days of capitalism a company used to be run essentially by one or a few people, and those people made decisions which they felt would best serve their company and their moral obligations to their community, companies are now run by too many moving parts for any one part to greatly affect the end result regardless of moral obligations. This is exactly equivalent and probably directly related to the well known bystander effect, whereby the likelihood of an individual breaking the routine and "doing the right thing" in a given situation is inversely proportional to the number of individuals present who are permitted the same opportunity. This effectively leaves the whole thing subject to little more than the rules and nature of whatever economic system it functions under.

Given any system of sufficient complexity, it is not easy to know what end a given set of rules will lead to. That's why we simulate things. Often the only way to understand a system is to set it up and let it run its course. We now know what sort of end the rules of capitalism lead to, and no one can deny that it isn't a pretty end. It's time for the people to wipe it out and start over with something which will tend toward a good end - something which naturally encourages things that we consider beneficial, rather than something which impedes progress and causes widespread harm while serving a minority who choose to spend their effort on the otherwise unproductive task of figuring out how to play a silly game.

In short, we have a system which does not merely allow, but in fact encourages and rewards waste, greed, and corruption. We see this now. In hindsight, there indeed is no way that we should have expected any other outcome. We can't expect to fix this by yelling at the players and telling them to stop doing what's working well for them. The game itself is the problem. This shit's got to go.


(Oops. It's fascinating how one little paragraph can turn in to a novel during a routine proofread.:-[)
 

Offline SgtRock

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2012, 03:42:23 am »
Dear Benemorius:

--I take your point. If only we could rid the USA of those pesky concepts, like Liberty, and Private Property, and concentrate all power in the State, then the State would wither away, and we would have a Utopia, under the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. We could call you a dreamer, but your'e not the only one.

"I were better to be eaten to death with a rust than to be scoured to nothing with perpetual motion."
William Shakespeare 1564 1616

Best Regards
Clear Ether
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 04:44:18 am by SgtRock »
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2012, 04:33:47 am »
@benemorius:
So what do you suggest as alternative ? Critiquing is one thing... Coming up with a solution another...
Surely you don't mean socialism where a street sweeper makes the same as a brainsurgeon ? That too has been tried and the outcome was a society of streetsweepers , no food on the plank.
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Offline Zeph

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2012, 05:02:45 am »
Seems like Dawn was describing a wide range of impediments to repairing electronics - SMD was just one of many aspects.  Yes, today a repair shop could replace SMD components - if they have access to component level service manuals, anomymized parts, custom parts, etc.

As others have pointed out, there is financial reward for the manufacturer to follow the practices Dawn describes, so it makes sense at that level.  But that shift of power towards the manufacturer has effects.

One of the slogans of the Maker movement is "If you can't open it, you don't own it."  We could nit pick and debate the fine points of any simple slogan, but overall it's encouraging that some people are starting to want to know how things work and how to make more customized alternatives to the stock offerings, rather than being solely passive consumers.  That's not going to replace complex equipment (people are not going to make their own HDTV's); even clever individuals can only tackle a subset of technological projects.  But it may help us to continue to foster creative engineers and scientists; the trend has been to have too few sharp new ones to replace the retirees.

It has been said that the companies are just following fashion fads in order to sell product (in their advertising), but I think it's a two way street and influences go both ways.  If you grow up with mostly welded-shut hoods, you are going to be more easily swayed by color and cool factor, than serious understanding of functionality.  The product design approach of which Mapple is an exemplar, is creating that passivity and faddishness in the culture, not just adapting to it.
 

Offline benemorius

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2012, 05:51:18 am »
@benemorius:
So what do you suggest as alternative ? Critiquing is one thing... Coming up with a solution another...
Surely you don't mean socialism where a street sweeper makes the same as a brainsurgeon ? That too has been tried and the outcome was a society of streetsweepers , no food on the plank.

Isn't that the truth! I won't pretend to be the one who knows of a better system. I'm not even out trying to draw attention to the current system. I only aim to refocus the attention of people who appear to be getting upset at the wrong thing. No one likes to see wasted effort. There are so many people who just wouldn't even think to consider a system flaw as the root problem. Far be it from me to let them go about their merry way without at least making a decent case for them to take into consideration.
 


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