Are we becoming old, cranky scrooges in these forums.

[schmitt trigger]

Have you noticed that slowly but surely, un-civilized discourse across most, if not all internet forums has increased?

It doesn't matter the topic being discussed, although certain forums (history, for instance) are the proverbial powder kegs waiting for an errant spark.
But even highly technical discussions are not immune, and we all have witnessed (or participated) on some which quickly degraded into the political realm, which is very polarized and ugly right now.

There are also specific instances in technical forums, made by newbies with preposterous questions: "Can anyone draw me a schematic for a 10,000w sinewave inverter? I have a 741 and a pair of 2N3055s that I would like to use." And when someone knowledgeable attempts to reason with them, they reply with a variation of "Are you going to help me out or not?"

And I know, I know.
Flame wars have existed since the beginning of time, back when users were lurking at text-only, monochrome displays.

[chriva]

Could also be the rona'
Lot's of people at home, dissatisfied and bored with things

[SerieZ]

I think that trend (if real) is due to the also increased amount of Users overall.
For example I personally find the amount of active Users on this Forum pretty amazing but it obviously also brings a lot of people together who disagree strongly on subjects with only a little spark needed to let the tempers take over...

Maybe look on the brighter side more and be happy we have so many engaged people trying to learn and do things + the ability to do so not only here, but overall.

[Cyberdragon]

There are several "boomer rant" style threads going around. It seems people can't do anything about the current situation so they need something else to get pissed off at, even if illegitimate/illogical.

[exe]

I don't want to put any judgement here, so I'll share my experience from moderating one forum which I don't want to mention here.

I used to be a moderator on a relatively popular forum. It was quite offensive and personal from the beginning, but it was a small community, people used to know each other, so that was an acceptable situation. Sort of a "friendly" unfriendly place. Then the forum became popular, many new people joined, newcomers adopted the culture they way they saw it. The result was/is quite a few users who have no respect whatsoever, personal insults, lots of drama, etc. A few people develop anxiety and other issues, which made them perfect targets for other trolls. The forum became a very toxic, although I'd say it's only 5 or 10% of people were responsible for the majority troubles. Same drama queens again and again.

I observed how people behavior changed over years. Quite a few people became impossible to communicate, they became very offensive yet very sensitive, and with enormous ego. They really got troubles with communicating other people in a calm and constructive way. I'd say they needed a help of psychologist. Worse yet, this culture went far out of the forum. Many members brought the same culture and same problems to other places too.

I attribute this to the way the community was managed. One of the rules was is a user seems to be a valuable contributor, s/he could do everything. This policy re-enforced certain behavior among people.

I believe mutual respect is far more important in the long run than anything else. My advice would be to just erase offensive messages, this worked quite well on our forum. Trouble is, we were not able to find an agreement what was offensive, and was not, part because users learned how to write offensive messages in a way that it's hard to judge if it's offensive or not. So, moderators were too busy discussing these matters instead of doing anything. Unfortunately, some people became very skilled at ruining communities so it's hard to see what damage they cause until too late. Offensive behavior is also "contagious", I saw normal users turning into trolls.

[engrguy42]

It's about egos. It can all be traced back to egos. For the most part, people come to forums not to learn but to act smart, because it builds their egos and makes them feel good. It's the same in youtube. People want entertainment and feeling good, not learning.

People love to give their opinions and sound smart and above everyone else. Facts are irrelevant. The want to hear stuff that agrees with what they've chosen to believe because it makes them feel good. And when others challenge or correct them, they get labelled as "trolls". Forums are good when everyone agrees. Forums are bad when outsiders come in who disagree. Who's right or wrong is irrelevant.

And I think the culture has promoted that. The "push a button to like or dislike" mentality has helped isolate people into their own little universes. They can quickly avoid anything that doesn't agree with them, and be shown only those things they "like". And they actually get reinforced to believing that they are experts if they watch a 4 minute video on any tech topic. They have no clue the vast universe of stuff that's out there that they don't even know exists. And they don't want to know. They've made up their minds and facts are irrelevant. If not, they just click to dislike and go elsewhere. 

They want only good stuff that makes them feel good and they want it NOW and if they don't get it NOW they click to go somewhere else. Learning is far too painful. And moreover they're now ENTITLED to get what they want, for free, right now, and if not they dislike it and go elsewhere. 

So yeah, real cranky. And it's only gonna get worse.

[schmitt trigger]

Indeed, the COVID-19, the economy, the desperate situation in many corners of the World, the political characters who gained power thorough insults and disrespect....everything starts fermenting inside one's brain.

And let's not forget about newscasts. One is bombarded 24/7 and 360/360 (what I call 24/7/360-squared) with terrible news from around the World. And with so many news outlets competing for your limited time, they have to provide more terrible and outrageous news. Every day.

The only way to "dissipate this excess negative energy" to borrow an electronic term, is by overheating an stressing your immediate "components".

BTW: I've stopped watching or reading newscasts almost completely.
I call it self-psychotherapy.

[exe]

BTW: I've stopped watching or reading newscasts almost completely.
I call it self-psychotherapy.

Same, many years ago. I used to be "challenged" by friends with question like "how I am remain connected with the world if I don't follow news", etc. I think this is called a "fear of missing out".

I also noticed how some people consume news almost 24/7, and react on pretty much everything. Then they feel the need to spread the news, but really they only project their fears and anxiety. It's almost never good news, it's most of the time something bad happened on the other side of the globe, and they are worried about themselves and their relatives. "Funny" thing is, they almost never asses if the information they got is likely to be true or not. Critical thinking is not there. I tried to tell them that news bring them only anxiety, and they don't have to react on everything, especially to things not involving them anyhow (which is ~99% of news, as news are very rarely actionable), or about things that they cannot even verify anyhow (fake news, etc). They don't understand me.

Anyway, I feel like discussing this raises my anxiety too, so I better shut up for my own sake .

[pardo-bsso]

Here and everywhere else too.
I mean, I'm not exactly not becoming younger for nothing.

Besides hyper-inflated egos here in my peer of groups the younger ones seem to be less or not prepared to deal with failures and people with a different mindset or do not take a no for answer.

And there's no way to convey that by saying no we might be rejecting a premise or proposal but not the person itself. (in general...).

Gosh, I miss the tantrums between blakeyrat,  nagesh and spamcourt.

[maginnovision]

I would say, personally, I find it entertaining to play devils advocate regardless of where I find myself on the subject. I like debating, real points not imaginary things, and I partake more often when I've got nothing much to do. It's not trolling either, I don't try to rile people up but rather get them to think about their positions and justify them the best they can. The only real problem is some people can't justify their positions and get angry instead lashing out. I typically give up when people get like that because it's not fun when people are just getting angry and irrational.

I look forward to being able to be around more real people since on the internet people are far more likely to skip a debate and go irrational or argue non-points from the get go. There is of course the issue with people getting older and more attached to their positions which makes it a more emotional argument than it should be so it's probably multiple things. Of course you could also be on forums more often now and just see it more often. Who knows?

[floobydust]

In the old days, it was about discussing a topic to hash it out, learn and have some fun.
Now, many Internet forums are all about ego, fending off trolls and arguing with people that are contributing nothing but discord or playing the contrarian to gain attention and feel self-important.
It takes a lot of time and energy to argue with people that don't have the same knowledge and are incapable of learning anything because they take it all personally and go hostile- instead of figuring it out, learning, adapting.

As I've said a few times, upvotes or likes are used on some sites to improve quality on posts- but they can be brigaded or corrupted by bots, so they are not much of an answer. Karma or points did not seem to work either.
Internet forums need to evolve and somehow keep the S/N ratio decent. The Arduino forums are hilarious, the old dogs there give shit to arrogant, vague, lazy posters all the time. You don't see that here.

[Marco]

Have you noticed that slowly but surely, un-civilized discourse across most, if not all internet forums has increased?

No, not really. You couldn't get away with the level of personal attacks seen on comp.electronics in the bygone ages here.

[schmitt trigger]

Lazy posters....exactly!

People who ask basic questions like: what is the RDSon of this particular Mosfet?

And when told to read the datasheet, because RDS0n is a function of several other parameters, and BTW what are your operational parameters? They become belligerent with replies like: Can you give me a value or not?

[KL27x]

I'm guilty of a lot of this stuff. I'm sure I'm on a few radars for being an old crank, in general. Not particularly political, but on technical matters (or reality, as I like to see it; though realities are a bit flexible, these days).

One of the worst things about the modern world is YouTube. It's completely evil. 15 years ago, when you wanted to research something on the internet, you got words. People shared information in text. You could collect a lot of info and absorb it. Today, that is on the verge of extinction, because of high speed internet and YouTube. Today, the same info is gone and moved to videos. To get that info from a video, you have to watch the entire fucking thing and in most cases listen to someone else drone on and on... and listen to "and if you like this video, smash the like button and subscribe." And because of of search algorithms and up/downvotes, popularity is more important than the info.

Modern internet is not very useful anymore for sharing information. It's for sharing experience/entertainment. I don't know if it's purposeful move by our puppet masters, but it's a major shift I've seen and lament.

[maginnovision]

I 100% agree on YouTube. Almost any technical video is a waste of time(I'm exaggerating, plenty of good on TI, R&S and other channels). Even Dave's videos he has multiple corrections in text which is good, but not as good as clear concise text on the matter. Luckily I have plenty of books I've read but I worry which information people actually remember in those cases. The words or the text? Maybe the only latched on to the tangent and missed all of the technical data.

[floobydust]

TV and youtube are garbage for teaching you anything- it's like watching a video with someone explaining how to do a math exam. You don't actually experience the pain and learn the math, instead it's someone showing you the answers.
Society has some weird avoidance around "not knowing", as if it equals being dumb. The ability to figure out and learn things is what matters, that is where the gold is. "Not knowing" is a great place and piles of fun in electronics.

Some developing countries seem to feel entitled to our knowledge, instead of putting in the effort to learn the craft. When you do help them, they scold you about something and then change the info or requirements.
In extreme cases, there are posts commanding their entire design they need - "provide sample schematic, firmware and total explanation of circuit theory and operation" etc.
As if they are an outsourced contract employee... and clueless about how to live up to their fake resume claims.

[maginnovision]

TV and youtube are garbage for teaching you anything- it's like watching a video with someone explaining how to do a math exam. You don't actually experience the pain and learn the math, instead it's someone showing you the answers.

I can't argue against this but I, pre-shutdown, belonged to a robotics club(actually a couple). So many of the members would use youtube videos to learn things and when you'd ask them about things they'd refer you to youtube. Years ago when I started going it really annoyed me especially when I'd actually watch one and find it was useless or even worse inaccurate/wrong. These weren't young people either, retired engineers, working engineers, doctors, ex-air force... They all seemed to get a large amount of their information from youtube. So even though WE know it's not very good a lot of people do it and that's what, I think, makes it so bad.

[eti]

Have you noticed that slowly but surely, un-civilized discourse across most, if not all internet forums has increased?

It doesn't matter the topic being discussed, although certain forums (history, for instance) are the proverbial powder kegs waiting for an errant spark.
But even highly technical discussions are not immune, and we all have witnessed (or participated) on some which quickly degraded into the political realm, which is very polarized and ugly right now.

There are also specific instances in technical forums, made by newbies with preposterous questions: "Can anyone draw me a schematic for a 10,000w sinewave inverter? I have a 741 and a pair of 2N3055s that I would like to use." And when someone knowledgeable attempts to reason with them, they reply with a variation of "Are you going to help me out or not?"

And I know, I know.
Flame wars have existed since the beginning of time, back when users were lurking at text-only, monochrome displays.

I had to step back, think for a moment, and wonder if you serious when you say "becoming" - BECOMING? HAH! DOUBLE-HAH!! TRIPLE-HAH!!! EEVblog forum members seem to be grumpy, miserable, nit-picking old gits BY DEFAULT - if ever I've seen grumpy, EEVblog magnifies this a billion fold to another level. So, yeah, I am not sure about the "becoming" part - I've always known of this forum as a place where arrogant, know-it-all, miserable saddos with no life hang out (and where they make it VERY CLEAR, very quickly that they have no life outside the "community" they kid themselves they're "part of".)

It's almost as if you're "expected" to put up with it, and be grateful for membership, and that it's "par for the course" - like this pedantic arrogance is worn as a "badge of pride" by many (not all, naturally).

Have you EVER heard such a flaming crock of shit as the concept of ANY online forum being a "community"? The term is bandied about ad nauseum, but it doesn't make it any more true. Whenever I see this bollocks about intermet "community" online, I wonder if those proposing that this spirit exists, have forgotten what REAL COMMUNITIES are about - people who are physically living within close proximity to one another, usually have known each other IN THE REAL, PHYSICAL WORLD for many years or decades, have been to dinner with one another, gone for days out together/holidays together, know one another's family members REALLY WELL and could be trusted to be left in those people's houses with their family and their private sanctuary... I dare not expand further - the utter  FANTASY of text on a website, being anywhere REMOTELY close to a REAL communtiy, is beyond words delusional.

If I am out for a walk and get caught short, and need a sh## and you don't bat an eyelid when I knock on your door and ask to use your WC, *THEN* I know you're a real friend.

Anyway, you got my view - take or leave it, it's no skin off my nose, but "becoming" grumpy? LOL.

[KL27x]

So, yeah, I am not sure about the "becoming" part - I've always known of this forum as a place where arrogant, know-it-all, miserable saddos with no life hang out (and where they make it VERY CLEAR, very quickly that they have no life outside the "community" they kid themselves they're "part of".)

In my mind, you're describing me. Except I have no illusion I'm a part of a community, other than this is a place where some people are compelled to occasionally read and respond to what I post.

Personally, I have never felt a part of a community what you describe, and I'm not sure I want that. My friends are few. Most of the "friends" I've had in life were more liability than asset.

Humans are self-interested, egocentric, and have ulterior motives and agendas. That's why we're above animals. That's why we suck. Half my posts on this forum, I am not there for that. I'm just there to tell you that you're wrong. In case you were curious how things really work.

[rsjsouza]

[KL27x]

I 100% agree on YouTube. Almost any technical video is a waste of time

Talking is just not a good medium for conveying some things. I used to get infuriated by some of the responses I would get to questions on the Microchip PIC forums. The two top active users answering my questions, they invariably responded pretty much verbatim what I already read (and was not quite understanding) in the manual. I actually honestly suspected that these guys didn't fully understand everything they were saying, so they would look things up and copy it right from the datasheet.

Fast forward years later, when I understand a lot of PIC architecture and assembly, I realize there's quite often a very limited way to state something without being wrong or misleading in some other way. And when you understand this complex thing, it's hard to understand where the missing connection is in someone else's head. Thus, the technical parlay. This nuanced and exacting technical parlay is bad enough in text. To watch a video would be horrible. 

[Bud]

If I am out for a walk and get caught short, and need a sh## and you don't bat an eyelid when I knock on your door and ask to use your WC, *THEN* I know you're a real friend.

    

[eti]

So, yeah, I am not sure about the "becoming" part - I've always known of this forum as a place where arrogant, know-it-all, miserable saddos with no life hang out (and where they make it VERY CLEAR, very quickly that they have no life outside the "community" they kid themselves they're "part of".)

In my mind, you're describing me. Except I have no illusion I'm a part of a community, other than this is a place where some people are compelled to occasionally read and respond to what I post.

Personally, I have never felt a part of a community what you describe, and I'm not sure I want that. My friends are few. Most of the "friends" I've had in life were more liability than asset.

Humans are self-interested, egocentric, and have ulterior motives and agendas. That's why we're above animals. That's why we suck. Half my posts on this forum, I am not there for that. I'm just there to tell you that you're wrong. In case you were curious how things really work.

*Keyword "personally" - maybe they thought the same of you, but were too forgiving or kind to say? Never mind. Your OWN, 1-in-~7BN people life experience doesn't mean one having friends is always "a liability" - that's you seeing your past through the lens of YOUR experience, nowt else.

[magic]

You guys grew up sheltered in radicalized liberal safe space echo chambers and gotta be new to the Internet in general

I had to step back, think for a moment, and wonder if you serious when you say "becoming" - BECOMING? HAH! DOUBLE-HAH!! TRIPLE-HAH!!! EEVblog forum members seem to be grumpy, miserable, nit-picking old gits BY DEFAULT - if ever I've seen grumpy, EEVblog magnifies this a billion fold to another level.

You have to be reading some garbage threads, most technical discussions are high quality here. Yes, people post occasional nitpicks and irrelevant tangents, but your mouse has that wheel thingy on it, learn to use it

It's almost as if you're "expected" to put up with it

Yeah, maybe

[Elasia]

The world has become awash with all the noisy few percent that make a ruckus linking up and finding each other.  I saw a good article on this somewhere awhile ago but more or less comes down to that mass media information used to be funneled and filtered due to being like a newspaper and now with the internet, everyone is interlinked directly.  Now the unruly are linking up and finding each other to promote their low value information to each other.

For a long time now I've thought that the series Firefly / movie Serenity actually nailed it pretty close that we will merge into a hybrid system of Euroamerican / Chinese meeting in the middle.  The main issue being out of control anything usually isnt a good thing and this particular topic directly a result of freedom to publish garbage.

The real question is where do you find the balance to advance society?

---

Now as far as technical discussions, there are plenty here i find to be high quality.  Also youtube has a lot of good content if you know where to look and able to consume it in that format but you have to wade through the 98% garbage to find it which is its main problem