Californians out of electricity cant get gasoline to generators!

[CatalinaWOW]

50 years ago in a summer internship between college semesters I worked for a power company doing layout/estimates for residential service installations.  As I recall, overhead low voltage distribution was estimated at $1.35/foot.  That covered cost of poles, wires, hardware and labor.  Underground version of the same was $4.40/foot, which covered trenching, conductors, hardware and labor.  Any concrete or other hard surface cutting was additional charge.  Typical distance for the areas I was covering was around 90 feet.  In more rural areas that distance could easily be 100s of feet.  Multiply those per foot costs by roughly ten to cover inflation over that interval and you start to understand the sticker shock of going underground.  Lots of repairs can be done for the difference. Metric zealots can do the multiplication and make the ugly units go away.  It is the ratios, not the absolutes that are important.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

What a fiasco! But heey Calif are run by socialist gov so what to expect!

Indeed!

[orion242]

Looks like another power company might as well get ready to be sued.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/power-lines-may-be-fault-raging-fire-near-los-angeles-n1066106

I find it rather comical that PG&E gets sued to the point of bankruptcy because of the fires last year.  Now facing the fact PG&E simply cannot afford that happening again, they kill the power and everyone is up in arms.  What else can they do today?  Nothing is going to change anytime soon and without substantial costs.

Also funny when the politicians are asked about the maybe preventing development in fire prone areas, they all seem to shy away from that.  Housing is under supplied and costs are already insanely expensive.  Can't do that.

So pack in developments in areas that are well known to have fires.

Make sure its nearly impossible to clear the lines without environmental studies, protests, etc.  Same thing if they suggest relocating the main transmission lines.  Both of which would take a decade to do anyway.  How would you remove all combustible materials below the lines?  Spray 40' wide path of glyphosate every 4-6 months?  How's that going to go over?

Instead of the insurance companies charging what it really costs to cover these homes, they sue the power suppliers out of existence.   At what point does extreme weather become an "act of God"?

The power suppliers in CA are only going to get more careful if they know they are liable.  I can't see any other short term solution than killing the power.

Really what would all EVs do to improve current situation?  Put the same grid under that more demand, more things will break.  When HV things break, sparks & flames are certainly possible.  Could the CA grid even offset all the energy currently supplied by gasoline & diesel today? 

There have been fires this time of year in CA for as long as I can remember.   40yrs ago, how many developments where in these locations compared to now?

I think CA electric rates are going to match the the price of gas in the near future.  Seems like the situation has hit a wall and it should be interesting to see how it shakes out.

[richard.cs]

How would you remove all combustible materials below the lines?  Spray 40' wide path of glyphosate every 4-6 months?  How's that going to go over?

It's not clear to me if the lines are so badly designed/built/maintained that in the wind they clash and shed sparks so any combustible material is a problem or if it's a problem of trees touching the lines or blowing into them. Nor is it really clear to me if the problem is the high voltage transmission grid on tall steel towers or the medium voltage distribution on wooden poles (pretty much by definition a wooden pole is less tall than at least some trees).

Clearly if the worry is falling sparks then you need to either fix that or spread glyphosphate/agent orange/arsenic everywhere, so clearly making them not spark (wider line spacings, etc.) is the only sensible solution. If it's trees contacting the lines then it's more like conventional scrub clearance, a few men with chainsaws twice a decade.

I am unsure how the HV protection works in the US, but in the UK fault current to earth (trees, etc.) is limited by impedance at the source end and there is fairly fast operating tripping for L-E faults. L-L faults can be much higher energy, and also have the problem that a mid-impedance short isn't really distinguishable from a heavy load. For dry, fire-prone conditions this energy-limited L-E fault is probably helpful, but it's still plenty enough to set fire to dry wood.

[orion242]

Even if its trees, clearing how many miles of trees takes how long and cost what?

Wouldn't be a shocker if they haven't been on top of this.  Even here freshly trimmed 40' tall trees are within 10' of the lines.  Add 70+ MPH wind, there is going to be contact.

Just trimming them is got to be a nightmare.  Grandmas massive oak tree has been a feature in the front yard as long as she can remember and they ain't cutting it down without a fight.  Play that scenario out over the whole path of the grid.  Nightmare...

And the story just gets better...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/us/pge-customer-rebates-california-governor/index.html

So leave the power on, plan on settlements in the billions.  Or turn it off, payout a substantial amount of cash as well.

The governor there must think that a company that's filed for bankruptcy can just print money.  Perhaps if line maintenance was an issue, CA should have gotten involved a bit earlier.

[rstofer]

So leave the power on, plan on settlements in the billions.  Or turn it off, payout a substantial amount of cash as well.

So, PG&E shut down the power and is getting criticized for preventing a fire and Southern Cal Edison didn't shut down power and are getting criticized for starting a fire.  They just can't win!

The governor there must think that a company that's filed for bankruptcy can just print money.  Perhaps if line maintenance was an issue, CA should have gotten involved a bit earlier.

When PG&E eventually has to rebate a few hundred million dollars, where do the people think the money comes from?  The ratepayers!  That's PG&E's only source of revenue (I'm assuming they aren't investing in BitCoin).

The $250 amount being suggested for businesses will be nowhere near their losses and the $100 for homeowners won't cover much food spoilage either.  But the people knew when they moved to the mountains that they could expect outages and fires.  Why whine and snivel when the inevitable happens?

[soldar]

Using helicopters with a giant chainsaw to clear rights of way:

https://youtu.be/Mfz1YrpMbBg?t=1

https://youtu.be/8n8xE-dsxT4?t=1

https://youtu.be/5zB6WvcZEYc?t=1

[richard.cs]

Even if its trees, clearing how many miles of trees takes how long and cost what?

It turns out that maintaining distribution infrastructure costs money. This should surprise no-one.

Just trimming them is got to be a nightmare.  Grandmas massive oak tree has been a feature in the front yard as long as she can remember and they ain't cutting it down without a fight.  Play that scenario out over the whole path of the grid.  Nightmare...

Surely there were legal agreements put in place when the lines were first installed? The need to keep it clear from trees must have been known from day one.

[orion242]

Surely there were legal agreements put in place when the lines were first installed? The need to keep it clear from trees must have been known from day one.

I would expect they have a right of way on any property they cross.  Is what was wide enough 100yrs ago going to satisfy the needs of today given even in these areas?  Even if they are, I assume any property owner can contest things slowing the process to an miserable rate.  Add in some protestors chaining themselves to the trees for good measure.

The ratepayers!

Exactly.

Line maintenance ignored by utility & PSC that over sees them, now requiring massive catch up...
Insurance claims against the utility...
Rebates for outages....
Relocate lines...

All ends up at the same spot and its looking like a rate hike.

[soldar]

Electric utilities are regulated by politicians. The public who votes are mostly fools who will vote for anything that sounds good even if it is utterly impossible or damaging. So politicians promise the impossible because all they care about is getting elected. Then, when in office, they try to get by with the least trouble even if it means worsening problems down the line.

In Spain the management of this sector has been atrocious. Something like 30 years ago costs were getting out of hand to the point that it was just impossible to raise rates to cover them so the government came up with the brilliant solution of having the electrics borrow and finance. That's right. Today we are paying for the mismanagement of decades past.

Spain has really bad management, due in equal parts to corruption, incompetence and inertia. As a result we have very high electricity rates and as a result of that any industry that uses electricity is at a disadvantage. Alcoa has been closing plants in Spain and thousands of jobs were lost.

Politicians can choose to explain the reality of the complicated situation to the voting public or can choose the simple message that it is all the fault of the electric companies and I'm gonna get them in line! Who do you think the voting fools will vote for?

The end result of the game is that the price of electricity remains high, politicians continue to live off the general public who pays their salaries while they are in office and later when they leave office and join the board of some electric company.

It is all a sham and we can only blame ourselves for not understanding how things work. We like to think someone can do some accounting magic and make us richer and things cheaper.  It ain't so.

[IanB]

Line maintenance ignored by utility & PSC that over sees them, now requiring massive catch up...

All ends up at the same spot and its looking like a rate hike.

Well, yes, but...

If the power companies neglected maintenance in order to inflate profits and give money to shareholders, then logically the shareholders should pay for the consequences, not the consumers. The company should be forced to borrow to make good, there should be no share dividends, and potentially legal action should be taken against the company officers to discourage others from doing the same thing in the future.

[orion242]

They are a public utility and regulated by the CPUC.

"The CPUC regulates services and utilities, protects consumers, safeguards the environment, and assures Californians' access to safe and reliable utility infrastructure and services." 

Seems its more than just PG&E asleep at the wheel.  If this has been a long standing problem, why didn't the CPUC step in?  Did PG&E every ask and denied rate hikes for additional maintenance?  Does the typical right of way / easement for lines allow enough clearance to keep crap away?

This is about all the real meat I can find behind what really sparked the fires.  "Dry vegetation" could be about anything from grass below to towering trees falling on the lines.  Would have thought that the investigation results would be public by now, they seem to be keeping them quite yet.

https://www.fire.ca.gov/media/5038/campfire_cause.pdf
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Hook-on-PGE-Tower-Eyed-as-Cause-of-Deadly-Camp-Fire-502035081.html

[soldar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

Regulatory capture is a form of government failure which occurs when a regulatory agency, created to act in the public interest, instead advances the commercial or political concerns of special interest groups that dominate the industry or sector it is charged with regulating.[1] When regulatory capture occurs, the interests of firms, organizations, or political groups are prioritized over the interests of the public, leading to a net loss for society. Government agencies suffering regulatory capture are called "captured agencies."

It happens all too often.

[Yansi]

Since when are governments and Büros created for the interests of public?

(but I get your point     ... actually... it is not funny.  )

[maginnovision]

It's really easy because once the regulator is working for the regulated they all say everything is good and everyone involved keeps their jobs forever. Or until the politicians complicit die. I wish we could try term limits for all of our politicians. Lifelong politicians isn't a good idea.

[orion242]

Public stoning / hanging of these jokers next public safety shutdown might be even more effective than term limits.

Just sniffing around the CPUC's site it seems fire migration plans have been in the works for some time.  Don't have the time to wad through all their crap, but I'm sure an appalling story of incompetence lies in there as well.

[Nusa]

Remember, during high wind events, there's probably no such thing as a right-of-way though a dry forest that doesn't get flying debris from outside the right-of-way. This years screaming was mostly about how much time it takes to inspect lines (e.g. actually doing maintenance required by events), not that anything was known to be in poor repair.

People who live remotely usually have generators because the power takes longer to fix when something does go wrong. Which it will, eventually. Neglecting to keep a sufficient supply of everything (including generator gas) for several days isn't a failure of the power companies. Even then, a few days of roughing it won't hurt most people. The exceptions must plan accordingly.

[soldar]

Regulators / supervisors not doing their jobs has lead to serious disasters. Chernobyl and Boeing are a couple.

In Spain a whole bunch of banks went bankrupt due to mismanagement and when the directors were prosecuted and tried they alleged in their defense that the state supervisors were aware of everything and did and said nothing so the responsibility must lie with the Bank of Spain and other regulatory agencies.

[orion242]

they alleged in their defense that the state supervisors were aware of everything and did and said nothing so the responsibility must lie with the Bank of Spain and other regulatory agencies.

Shameless.  Sounds like candidates for public stoning / hanging...

[Gyro]

It's kind of ironic that this is happening in the State with the highest GDP, in the world's largest economy.

It makes me wonder how the rest of us cope! 

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Maybe PG&E is another ENRON in disguise?

[SiliconWizard]

It's kind of ironic that this is happening in the State with the highest GDP, in the world's largest economy.

Just because you have money doesn't mean you use it wisely. Or, you may just have different priorities.

[rstofer]

Well, yes, but...

If the power companies neglected maintenance in order to inflate profits and give money to shareholders, then logically the shareholders should pay for the consequences, not the consumers. The company should be forced to borrow to make good, there should be no share dividends, and potentially legal action should be taken against the company officers to discourage others from doing the same thing in the future.

It is disingenuous to claim that the deferred maintenance is in the name of profit.  As a public utility, PG&E's profit margin is set by law.  Oddly, they make more profit when they encourage lower consumption.  The CPUC regulates all of this.  If the utility needed more money for maintenance, they would have to get the approval of the CPUC.

https://www.pge.com/en_US/small-medium-business/your-account/rates-and-rate-options/learn-more-about-rates/how-pge-makes-money.page

But the CPUC members are political appointees with absolutely no background in utilities or, probably, even working for a living.  They are hangers-on in the orbit of the Governor.

https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/General.aspx?id=710

So, if PG&E decided to do more maintenance, they would petition the CPUC for funding and the CPUC would reject passing the costs on to the ratepayers who elect the Governor who appoints the members.

It's pretty easy to understand why this system fails.

There is incompetence built into the system at every level.  it is unfair to blame PG&E for all of the issues when they very probably did ask for additional funding.  Nobody will ever admit to it because it would make the CPUC seem even more incompetent and, by extension, the Governor's choice in appointees, so PG&E goes along with the charade because they are regulated by the CPUC.

Again, I'm not a great fan of PG&E but I know enough about how the system is set up to realize that it isn't all their fault.  They had a lot help!

[rstofer]

It's not clear to me if the lines are so badly designed/built/maintained that in the wind they clash and shed sparks so any combustible material is a problem or if it's a problem of trees touching the lines or blowing into them. Nor is it really clear to me if the problem is the high voltage transmission grid on tall steel towers or the medium voltage distribution on wooden poles (pretty much by definition a wooden pole is less tall than at least some trees).

Clearly if the worry is falling sparks then you need to either fix that or spread glyphosphate/agent orange/arsenic everywhere, so clearly making them not spark (wider line spacings, etc.) is the only sensible solution. If it's trees contacting the lines then it's more like conventional scrub clearance, a few men with chainsaws twice a decade.

I am unsure how the HV protection works in the US, but in the UK fault current to earth (trees, etc.) is limited by impedance at the source end and there is fairly fast operating tripping for L-E faults. L-L faults can be much higher energy, and also have the problem that a mid-impedance short isn't really distinguishable from a heavy load. For dry, fire-prone conditions this energy-limited L-E fault is probably helpful, but it's still plenty enough to set fire to dry wood.

We had a total grid failure some time back and it was during an especially hot spell.  All of the air conditioning in the state was running and created a demand far above normal so the wires got hot and sagged until they hit the ground.  No wind, no sparks, no falling trees, just copper's coefficient of expansion.

Here's a paper on sag:
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.299.8246&rep=rep1&type=pdf

[Marco]

Something will light the forest sooner or later regardless.