Citroen Ami E hackable you bet it is

[robint]

Yes guys there is another Topic on here but I want to utterly dissociate myself with the low grade response therein.  Pls get serious.  We are dealing with a seminal mode of Urban transport and no one yet seems to have spotted it as a Londoner would when you live within Ulez.  I am a lifelong professional engineering designer and have always been fascinated by some of the eminently successful products that comprised of elegant simplicity.  Unlike coworkers in this sphere who spend their live prostituting designs for built in obsolescence (eg inkjet cartridges crippled so they cant be refilled, AGM batteries designed to fail after a couple 100 cycles etc). 
So I refer to the original classic french farmers family car designed to cross a ploughed field without breaking an egg.  Just examine closely the ingenuity of its design features and how it was an astounding success for its duty for over 40 years Between 1948 and 1990, more than 3.8 million 2CVs were produced, making it the world's first front-wheel drive car to become a million seller after Citroën's own earlier model.

Now Je vous propose, that the Ami E is the new EV evangelist

Joke about the lack of modern auto amenities as you will, but EV,s in London are a nightmare to charge up. 

So take our loveable bug and make the batteries/ trolley mounted, so they can be simply exchanged in 5 mins at your nearest provider  and you are on your way for 40miles (will you do that around London).  Also you could wheel your battery pack indoors for recharging overnight, or keep a spare set on hand.

Well thats my prospectus - you may all now pooh pooh on me from a dizzy height - let battle commence

[tom66]

I've driven an EV in London and not found the charging particularly difficult?  It's much more of a problem in other cities but London has thousands of lamppost chargers and provided you've set up the app on your phone beforehand, it only takes a minute to start charging.  Rapid chargers are also common - e.g. Shell has this thing in Fulham which replaced an existing petrol station with chargers.

The problem as always with easily removable battery packs is going to be security, safety and cooling.  EV batteries are usually cooled during charging, so you'll probably need to hook a coolant circuit up to your battery whilst charging it indoors.  They're pretty heavy (maybe not in the Ami but any reasonably-sized car you're talking 200kg easily).  And they cost a lot to replace, so you don't want to make it easy for them to be nicked. 

I don't see why the petrol station & lamppost charging (and on-drive charging for those with a driveway) isn't good enough;  introducing exchangeable batteries does not solve enough problems to make up for its complexity.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Any useful sized battery for a car is going to be too heavy to be practical to remove.
Cooling isn't an issue at home charging levels, but does complicate any removable battery concept.

[tom66]

Any useful sized battery for a car is going to be too heavy to be practical to remove.
Cooling isn't an issue at home charging levels, but does complicate any removable battery concept.

My ID.3 runs the cooling pumps when charging at 7kW.  I can see pretty easily on the thermal camera that the radiator is warm.  (Poor quality - because I took the picture with my phone.  This thermal camera didn't have an SD card slot.)

Presumably VW think there is some need to cool the charger and/or the battery.  An external 7kW charger is either going to be very loud with air cooling or will need liquid cooling and a large-ish radiator.

[robint]

Any useful sized battery for a car is going to be too heavy to be practical to remove.
Cooling isn't an issue at home charging levels, but does complicate any removable battery concept.

I did some homework before posting my OP, batteries are ca 11kg ea 2 off
they can be charged at 3kW from a domestic socket  ca 3 hrs
there is no battery cooling , its only 5kWh storage and 8hp max output, not like a ^&*(&^( dick drive EV with 1000hp on tap).  Have you noticed how the industry has lost the plot here?

Which is why I made this post

Average traffic speed in London is 11mph.

The gluttonous Uber Hype we are subjected to everyday wasnt around when the original 2CV was born (nor the VW not to neglect another supremely successful design).  But the I owned a 1935 Austin Ruby, weighed 500kg 7hp,  40mpg, 40mph brilliant little car https://classicsworld.co.uk/cars/road-test-1937-austin-seven-ruby/.  My recent car was a Toyota Aygo, also 40mpg (70mph on motorway but we are Urban drivers here - compare the two as people carriers?

We are looking at a 2 person urban carrier.  The Twizzy failed cos of lack of weather protection (like sitting on a motobike) and also you had a monthly rental charge for the battery.  We now know that an Ami battery will likely outlast the car with Urban use.

Batteries on a caddy system, whats not to like.

OBTW over the pond some buddies have already hacked the Amie (with some local agent connivance), doubled battery size and system volts and get a respectable 40mph and 60 miles range.  We dont allow that here cos the vehicle is classed as a quad bike and bypasses all the type approval stuff.  It was never meant to go fast  neither was a golf cart - but that performs a very useful service in its category.

[nctnico]

You see a lot of these driving around in Amsterdam:


https://biro.nl/modellen/

[mikeselectricstuff]

Any useful sized battery for a car is going to be too heavy to be practical to remove.
Cooling isn't an issue at home charging levels, but does complicate any removable battery concept.

I did some homework before posting my OP, batteries are ca 11kg ea 2 off
they can be charged at 3kW from a domestic socket  ca 3 hrs
there is no battery cooling , its only 5kWh storage and 8hp max output, not like a ^&*(&^( dick drive EV with 1000hp on tap). 

The Ami is something of an outlier, which is why I said "useful". No heating/AC and can barely make it up a hill. If you took the weight of the battery out & left it parked, it would probably blow away!

[BrokenYugo]

Why battery swap "charge" a micro car that's no harder to charge than plugging in a kettle? IIRC the car even comes with it's own retractable mains cord, you don't even have to find a proper EV charger. The whole point of the Ami, as I understand it, is "cheapest simplest city only EV possible", You're talking about adding a user accessible battery tray to a car doesn't have roll up windows and uses the same door on both sides of the car.

Also sounds somewhat analogous to the current Ebike deal where in more densely populated areas you have shops crammed full of batteries and bikes charging at all times, and one inevitably goes off and torches the place now and then. You can of course blame that all on Chineseium but if you start making smaller EV batteries user removable you'll inevitably get the same fire hazard grade batteries mixed into the general population in no time.

[robint]

Erm Lifepo is here, Lions are EOL - history.  For Urban residents, you cant trail a charge cord out across a public pavement in front of you residence

OBTW is high time the E scooter industry got its act together.  You dont get incendiary problem with regular  E bikes - but pedalphiles are a stroppy lot

[Zada Moore]

Yo, listen up, folks! I gotta set the record straight from that lame response earlier. Let's get real here. We're talking about a game-changing ride in the urban jungle, and it seems like nobody's clocked it the way a true Angelino would, especially those of us grinding it out in the Ulez zone.

 :)As a lifelong pro engineering designer, I'm all about those slick, simple-yet-genius products. Unlike some of my peers who seem to be all about that planned obsolescence (yeah, I'm looking at you, inkjet cartridges and AGM batteries), I'm talking about the OG classic - the 2CV, straight outta French farm life.

Now, peep this: I'm throwing down the gauntlet and saying the Ami E is the new EV prophet. Yeah, sure, crack your jokes about its lack of fancy bells and whistles, but let me tell ya, charging up EVs in LA is a whole lotta hassle.

So, here's the deal: let's pimp our ride and make those batteries trolley-mounted, so you can swap 'em out in a quick 5 minutes at your nearest spot and hit the road for a solid 40 miles (perfect for navigating LA's chaos). And hey, why stop there? Roll those batteries indoors for a chill overnight recharge or keep a spare set on deck.

That's my two cents. Feel free to rain down your critiques on me - let the battle begin!

[PlainName]

Average traffic speed in London is 11mph

That's average, not max. You need at least 50mph capability to be safe and avoid being the recipient of road rage - I think max limit around London is 40mph and you need a bit extra to be able to manage that.

[SiliconWizard]

Any useful sized battery for a car is going to be too heavy to be practical to remove.
Cooling isn't an issue at home charging levels, but does complicate any removable battery concept.

I did some homework before posting my OP, batteries are ca 11kg ea 2 off

Really? According to the WIkipedia article, which may not be accurate, the weight with batteries is 60 kg more than without (5.5 kWh battery, haven't looked whether they had versions with less capacity and thus lighter, but if so, that's probably not going to get you very far). So, hmm. What's up with that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Ami_%28electric_vehicle%29

[robint]

Average traffic speed in London is 11mph

That's average, not max. You need at least 50mph capability to be safe and avoid being the recipient of road rage - I think max limit around London is 40mph and you need a bit extra to be able to manage that.

Clearly not a residential London Ebike commuter (as I, for 2 years 11 mile trip challenging Trafalgar Sq every morning What a buzz)  on my crappy 8spd Mountain Bike, my biggest fear was goddamm pedestrians, walk out in front of you - they dont see bikers - and think they have right of way. They caused the only 2 accidents I had and threatened to sue me for walking out in front of me.

[robint]

Any useful sized battery for a car is going to be too heavy to be practical to remove.
Cooling isn't an issue at home charging levels, but does complicate any removable battery concept.

I did some homework before posting my OP, batteries are ca 11kg ea 2 off

Really? According to the WIkipedia article, which may not be accurate, the weight with batteries is 60 kg more than without (5.5 kWh battery, haven't looked whether they had versions with less capacity and thus lighter, but if so, that's probably not going to get you very far). So, hmm. What's up with that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Ami_%28electric_vehicle%29

Lion batteries energy density ca 250Wh/kg  so 5kWh is 20x  ie 20kg  = 10kg/battery pack (say +1kg for casing)  OK  so Im not far out with my HOMEWORK .  Thats easily manageable as a carry out.  If I still lived in central London its what I would do
HACK IT HACK IT - Keep a spare pair indoors and modify to use Anderson Connectors.  Probably keep another pair on board for extended range should it ever be needs.  Perhaps and enterprising young fella will open a little swap shop for Ami owners in Chelsea   Kings Rd Also renting out the trendy Ami Safari

[kripton2035]

my 5kWh pylontech lifepo4 battery weights ... 39kg !
there is only a metal case, some electronic for the bms, nothing fancy.



https://en.pylontech.com.cn/products/c23/134.html

[SiliconWizard]

Well, probably you can make it half the weight if you buy Li-ion batteries on Aliexpress that claim 10x the real capacity for half the weight. Otherwise, that's probably going to be a tough call if you want any kind of safety.

[Siwastaja]

Lion batteries energy density ca 250Wh/kg  so 5kWh is 20x  ie 20kg

Most modern and energy dense li-ion cells are well over 300Wh/kg years ago already, but besides the fact they might use some less energy dense (and thus cheaper) technology node, such as your beloved LFP chemistry, also remember that "battery" is more than just the cells. It includes casing and some physical structure which adds strength. Final energy density for the whole pack varies wildly. And if you make a very lightweight pack with less physical protection, then it needs additional protection "outside" of the pack, which then again adds weight, so it's a zero sum game.

[SiliconWizard]

Yep, and especially if said batteries were designed to be easily user-replaceable as easily as the OP mentions, they would require yet extra protection, and nasty connectors.

However hard some people want EVs to be completely as easy and practical to use as ICE, that's not going to happen anytime soon. At this point, it may even be a dead-end. Not that this is something most want to hear. Let's keep dreaming together (while kids are mining cobalt for us, but I'm digressing. Sorry.)

[Siwastaja]

However hard some people want EVs to be completely as easy and practical to use as ICE, that's not going to happen anytime soon. At this point, it may even be a dead-end. Not that this is something most want to hear. Let's keep dreaming together (while kids are mining cobalt for us, but I'm digressing. Sorry.)

Well, to me my EV is as easy and practical than my ICE vehicle was, and it does not use any cobalt, so But your mileage may vary. 10 years ago EV was suitable for maybe <5% use cases. Now probably for well over 50%, which can be seen from the fact that new cars being sold are nearly 50-50% EVs and ICEs and people generally are quite happy (albeit not everyone). All advances in battery energy density and cost have gone to increase battery capacity, which has more than doubled in less than 10 years which is quite remarkable, but that has also kept weight and cost high. EVs have finally become usable but are still expensive and heavy.

Battery swapping was dead from the start, it was never going to fly and finally people are starting to get it as batteries are getting better, cheaper and fast charging even faster. Tesla demonstrated automated battery swap just to silence idiots who say it "can't be done"; of course you can do it, just like you can put solar panels inside the roads. Whether it's practical or makes any sense is another question, pretty much solved a decade ago already. It's actually quite funny to see someone still dreaming about battery swap in 2024.

I mean, expecting the car industry to standardize to one battery form, size, shape, location in car and mounting mechanism, when e.g. the German car industry still can't even standardize a way to turn on a contactor on an existing plug standard to enable V2G/V2X "everyone" wants to have.

[robint]

@siwastaja Battery swapping was dead from the start, it was never going to fly

Watch this space

I knew my idea would be stolen
 
This is EV for the city  https://www.triggo.city/

[Siwastaja]

Wait, battery swapping was your idea! Quite a feat, making even Elon Musk demonstrate it for you! It's saddening to hear that finally, after over a decade of failure after failure to commercialize your idea all over the world, finally someone stole your unique idea no one never thought about  :'(

Maybe sue these idea thieves?

[SiliconWizard]

They can build a website though.

[robint]

I do claim to be the Prince of Sardony

I read recently that EVs market is crashing as the realities of ownership come through.  Trying to renew insurance on EVs has become prohibitively expensive (in UK).  The humble Citroen Ami is suffering with hardly any Insurers wishing to quote  and then only to long time trusted drivers with max NCB £500+ pa (for an 8hp vehicle?).  Poor winter performance results in drastic reduction in available mileage range and persistent lack of charging stations gives the used car market a lack of confidence.   The worst aspect of all is in trying to determine the SOH of the battery.  With an ICE you pretty much know by the mileage what the cars value is.  With an EV you cant readily asses the battery SOH because it varies wildly depending on whether the car has been fast charge thru its life or more gently thru a household charger.  The battery is ca half the total cost of the car.  After a few years the insurance value of the car is ca 50% of new, so a slight bump often results in the car written off as its not worth repairing.

[kripton2035]

even with a small bump on a almost new electric car, as the battery is not replaceable, sends the car to the trash ...
having standard exchangeable batterie modules between car manufacturers would be the best thing to build for the planet...
but it will surely not be.

[langwadt]

even with a small bump on a almost new electric car, as the battery is not replaceable, sends the car to the trash ...
having standard exchangeable batterie modules between car manufacturers would be the best thing to build for the planet...
but it will surely not be.

can you easily swap ICE engines and gearboxes between manufacturers?

[mikeselectricstuff]

even with a small bump on a almost new electric car, as the battery is not replaceable, sends the car to the trash ...
having standard exchangeable batterie modules between car manufacturers would be the best thing to build for the planet...
but it will surely not be.

There are plenty of people replacing & refurbishing EV batteries. And re-using the module in other applications like home storage

[Siwastaja]

even with a small bump on a almost new electric car, as the battery is not replaceable, sends the car to the trash ...

Do people actually believe this bullcrap? I mean, are people like kripton2035 actually serious, or just trolling?

[kripton2035]

if the bump touches the battery pack, yes it's almost certainly to the trash ...
the repair will cost more than the car.

[Siwastaja]

if the bump touches the battery pack, yes it's almost certainly to the trash ...
the repair will cost more than the car.

For example, Nissan Leaf 40kWh model,
cost of car: 30000€
cost of brand new battery pack + install work at Nissan: 8000-9000€, so around 1/3rd of the cost of the car
cost of refurbished battery pack + selling the damaged pack for modules at 3rd party: 3000-4000€, so around 1/10th of the cost of the car

[kripton2035]

seems it greatly depends on the car brand ...
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/scratched-ev-battery-your-insurer-may-have-junk-whole-car-2023-03-20/

[Fred27]

A company called Better Place tried (and failed) with the battery swap thing many years ago, Perhaps it was too soon for the idea.

There is a bit more potential for urban electric scooters/mopeds which don't need such a large battery pack, and occasional rumours of manufacturers standardizing on a physical battery pack format.

[BrokenYugo]

seems it greatly depends on the car brand ...
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/scratched-ev-battery-your-insurer-may-have-junk-whole-car-2023-03-20/

Sounds more like a combination of the "just copy the hip trendy one and call it a day" design practices, lack of service data, and general automotive cheapassery than an actual issue with the tech. Anything delicate under a car exposed to the road will be damaged eventually, anyone who works on or builds cars knows that, but Tesla did it and it cheapens assembly, so everyone else does it.

Makes far more sense to me to have a more traditional unibody car shell with a steel floor pan at the lowest point, then load in and wire up a battery pack in 2-4 pieces bolted ABOVE the floor structure (should be air gap between the skin and battery skin to allow for dents), then the cabin floor and interior above the layer of batteries, but that's slightly more materials and assembly work than just bolting a big glued together throwaway assembly straight to the bottom, so that's what happens.

[Siwastaja]

Also just remember that media lives off clickbaits and controversy. Same media outlet can alternatively do strongly opinionated pro-EV and anti-EV news articles and provide many times the clicks compared to how boring it was if they stayed truthful.

Facts are:
All EVs have some cover on the underside of the battery pack. Some worse, some better.
A "scratch" won't cause any EV battery to become write off. It has to be more than a "scratch". An actual dent, deformation.
Most EV batteries can be repaired if damage is small.
Most EV batteries can be replaced.
Most EV batteries have aftermarket even after damage.
Complete write-off due to simple damage from small road debris is very rare.

There are many grains of truth in articles like published by Reuters, and I applaud the critique which is deserved, but these articles are written in very exaggerating and misleading ways to create controversy, which creates money.

[Bud]

if the bump touches the battery pack, yes it's almost certainly to the trash ...
the repair will cost more than the car.

For example, Nissan Leaf 40kWh model,
cost of car: 30000€
cost of brand new battery pack + install work at Nissan: 8000-9000€, so around 1/3rd of the cost of the car
cost of refurbished battery pack + selling the damaged pack for modules at 3rd party: 3000-4000€, so around 1/10th of the cost of the car

Tell it to this guy

https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/12/11/hyundai-ev-battery-icbc-cost/

[Bud]

Incompetence of who? Hyundai Canada was involved and even with the case being broadcast on national TV, all Hyundai could do is offer the guy a tiny discount if he buys a new vehicle ftom them. Very far from "battery only cost 10% of the car" somebody said here.

[vk6zgo]

if the bump touches the battery pack, yes it's almost certainly to the trash ...
the repair will cost more than the car.

For example, Nissan Leaf 40kWh model,
cost of car: 30000€
cost of brand new battery pack + install work at Nissan: 8000-9000€, so around 1/3rd of the cost of the car
cost of refurbished battery pack + selling the damaged pack for modules at 3rd party: 3000-4000€, so around 1/10th of the cost of the car

Tell it to this guy

https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/12/11/hyundai-ev-battery-icbc-cost/

It's a Hyundai---that's why!

My daughter bought a Hyundai Accent. (I.C. car)
Nice car till the engine blew up.

She then had to wait for months for warranty repair to be completed, (the beginning of a degree of discontentment with the brand).

A while later, she was in the middle of a 5 car pile up.
The Accent "didn't look that bad", but was a "write off".

OK, it was replaced with a new Accent, so she was happy enough, but a year later an old bloke plowed into her as she was entering our local street.
Again, the car "didn't look that bad", but it was also a "write off".

This time the insurance company paid her out, so she bought a Toyota Corolla.
Some time later, she was butted from behind by a bus.

The Corolla "didn't look that bad" & was drivable!

She put off getting it repaired for a while, then whilst she was turning into our driveway, a lady in a Holden Commodore drove into the LH rear of the car. (yes, she IS unlucky)

It looked much worse than either Hyundai had, but it has been repaired.

It seems that for some brands of car, the default is "write-off".

[Siwastaja]

Hyundai is incompetent

Assuming the case described in the article is true: they are not necessarily incompetent, just run shitty business politics. Depending on country, this would be likely an easy win with consumer protection authorities or in court, but not everyone goes that far, and then refusing a warranty repair only costs a dent in reputation and many companies simply do not care about their reputation.

Again it depends on country, but whenever the term "warranty" is used it's a pretty strong consumer protection thing, specifically in EU. It roughly means reversal of the burden of proof. The manufacturer would need to make a strong case against the consumer to show the failure is consumer's fault. Don't know about Canada, though, probably different story.

Bullshit like this happens. There is no evidence, anecdotal or hard, that this is somehow more prevalent in EVs. Internal combustion engines have a lot of similar stories of self-destruction and very expensive engine replacements. And cars in general, some manufacturers think that a relatively small body damage is a total write-off.

It is also well possible the story, which only tells one side, is highly biased. Ridiculously high prices are just a way of saying "go away" without literally saying go away. There might be reasons why they do this that we don't know about.

[Bud]

A guy like RichRebuilds can just epoxy a new gland on and get it working like that.

Please dont make people laugh. We are talking oficcial assessments of the vehicle being road worthy in an urban environment and highways, not DIY patches applied to a tractor that rides at a private farm. Run your RichRebuilds by your auto insurance and see what they say.

[langwadt]

A guy like RichRebuilds can just epoxy a new gland on and get it working like that.

Please dont make people laugh. We are talking oficcial assessments of the vehicle being road worthy in an urban environment and highways, not DIY patches applied to a tractor that rides at a private farm. Run your RichRebuilds by your auto insurance and see what they say.

hyperbole much? ICE car get repairs like that and aftermarket parts all the time, why would EVs be so special?