Clients asking for the impossible

[ampdoctor]

I don't mean to make this sound like a rant but just felt like sharing a little story and maybe a few other people can pile on with their own little tales of clients demanding stupid crap that can't or shouldn't be done.

I just had a guy come in with a guitar amplifier fitted with 4 6L6 power tubes. He wanted them replaced with EL34's because he likes the sound of those tubes better.  So, I told him that while it can be done, it really shouldn't be done. I explained to him that a tube change like this isn't as easy as plugging them in and resetting the bias voltage. You've got a bad transformer mismatch on the output primary, and the whole bias circuit needs to be reworked. I also have to cut and replace traces with bodge wires and flying components, and that the power transformer may not have the 2+ amps of margin designed in to handle the filament current. The total bill will be at least $200 + the cost of parts.

Now he's all butt hurt because I refused to do the work and hit him with a minimum bench fee, howling that he thought I was a good tech.  Yeah, I am a good tech, and that's why I don't want to do it. I'm not going to risk my reputation and screw up a $2000 amplifier and put it's reliability at risk. So yea, I lost the job and he's taking it down the road to another tech that's going to do it and for a lot less.  Up shot is that he'll probably be back in 6 months with a blown power transformer and Lord knows what else that's really going to cost him some money to get fixed.

Some days you just can't win! 

[AndyC_772]

Do remember that it's not the customer's job to be the expert. If professional electronics were easy, any fool could do it, and you and I would both be out of a job.

I've certainly done jobs that, with hindsight, I should have turned down. Thankfully there haven't been too many of them.

[ampdoctor]

That could be an interesting thread....jobs I should have turned down but didn't, and jobs I didn't turn down but should have.

[David_AVD]

It sounds like you're better off without that particular client.  Charging the minimum bench fee was the right thing to do as well.

[Electro Fan]

The customer might just want the particular sound he is after but not realize what is involved technically.  My guess is that if you empathize with the customer ("Yes, it would be great to use the EL34 tubes so you can pursue the sound you prefer") and also give him confidence you can do the work in the right way he might come around to realizing you are giving him good advice. 

Separate from the sound characteristics that he wants and the reliability you want to deliver is whether his budget will allow him to do it right.  I'd say to such a customer "I can get make the amp work with the EL34s but I think you want the work done so the amp is still reliable.  To do it right will cost $x total for parts and labor.  If that is beyond your budget I'd understand fully.  If it fits your budget I'd be happy to do the work."

Your price sounded reasonable so I think the customer probably just needed to get focused on the benefit more than the fee.  It's possible that he thought you were selling him something that he didn't need (he might have thought he could just plug in the tubes and do some biasing).  So he might have needed more education along with the empathy.  Some customers are harder to educate than others and it might not have been worth your time to educate him and sell him.  That's part of business, knowing how much time to spend on qualifying before passing.

Net, net:  rather than describing the cost as a "bench fee" which is hard for the customer to value, I'd put the emphasis on the what the customer gets (reliability and peace of mind along with the EL34 sound characteristics).  It might just be words or salesmanship but what counts is not just what you say, it's what the customer hears.  If the customer pays for you to do the work the right way and gets the right solution you both win, so it's worth helping the customer understand the benefit (reliability and sound quality) which is the thing to emphasize more than the (bench) fee. 

 

[grumpydoc]

My guess is that if you empathize with the customer....

+1

Someone I know once said that it took him 10years to work out the technical aspects of what he did for a living, and another 20 to work out the customer service side. At the time I didn't fully understand what he meant but now I'm a little older I think he wasn't far from the truth.  I'm slowly learning how to handle people better despite the fact that I don't think that comes naturally to me (I suspect I have Asperger's but don't have a formal diagnosis).

How you say something matters at least as much as what you say. Chalk this one up to experience but I agree with Electro Fan. If you tell someone what they want to do is impossible, or ill-advised you set up a confrontation which is not a good basis for a meeting of minds.

As an example of this my neighbours wife has Alzheimer's and went through a patch of wandering away from home - as people with this condition are wont to do. One day I found one of my other neighbours with her in the street and it was pretty obvious that things were tense. It turned out that she realised she was lost but did not recognise the house she shared with her husband as "home" - probably she was working on some childhood memory of what home looked like.

So my other neighbour is saying the sort of thing you'd expect - "of course this is where you live" but the response was very firmly "that's not my home". This just produced the response "you definitely live here" with more and more emphasis but all that was happening was that tempers were getting frayed on both sides.

So I stepped in and simply asked the confused old lady what she wanted to do - "go home" was the answer. Instead of repeating "this is where you live" I answered: "OK, we can sort that for you, I'll make a few calls but in the meantime it's cold out here why don't we go inside" and lead her towards her house. Once inside she recognised her husband (just) and settled down.

The point (sorry for the shaggy dog story) is that avoiding confrontation can improve communication no end. It's possible you could have got the customer happy with your fee by couching it in terms of wanting to do a good job.

Even if you really didn't want to take the work on you can still phrase things so as to leave the customer thinking how helpful you were - which is always good the next time they want work done.

[EEVblog]

The art of electronics design contracting is knowing what jobs to turn down 

[grumpydoc]

The art of electronics design contracting is knowing what jobs to turn down

The art of keeping clients happy is how you turn them down.

[David_AVD]

The art of electronics design contracting is knowing what jobs to turn down

The art of keeping clients happy is how you turn them down.

There will always be the odd few that will never be happy though.   

[pickle9000]

The art of electronics design contracting is knowing what jobs to turn down 

Or in my case (more often than not) being stupid enough to say yes. It was how I made a living doing the crap no one else wanted. In reality it turned out to be a good strategy, I earn money and get educated a win win situation.

When it comes to customers all understand the money issue. Be up front (especially as a contractor) and explain the cost factor (if the job is doable) and if they are will to pay then do it. If it's not doable say up front "I'll have to look into it, what are your reasons" and try to come up with a solution. Your job is to help the customer, in some cases that involves passing the job on to another. If you can do this and maintain the relationship you will have a customer for life. 

[ajb]

The art of electronics design contracting is knowing what jobs to turn down 

Or in my case (more often than not) being stupid enough to say yes. It was how I made a living doing the crap no one else wanted. In reality it turned out to be a good strategy, I earn money and get educated a win win situation.

One of the most valuable lessons to learn is not to tell a customer yes or no.  Just tell them how much it'll cost and why.  The trick is to make sure that the price tag is large enough that you won't mind doing it if they accept  . 

[pickle9000]

The art of electronics design contracting is knowing what jobs to turn down 

Or in my case (more often than not) being stupid enough to say yes. It was how I made a living doing the crap no one else wanted. In reality it turned out to be a good strategy, I earn money and get educated a win win situation.

One of the most valuable lessons to learn is not to tell a customer yes or no.  Just tell them how much it'll cost and why.  The trick is to make sure that the price tag is large enough that you won't mind doing it if they accept  .

That is so true. Don't undervalue yourself.

[ampdoctor]

In the music industry you really get to see the full spectrum of personalities daily. It can be a challenge at times and you've got to handle everybody differently and on a case by case basis. I'm not getting rich but it's a hell of a ride that I couldn't even imagine trading in for some corporate cubicle.

You'll go from the pro studios that hand you a blank check and tell you to do what you have to do. These guys often want things like clones of classic studio equipment, custom mic preamps, compressor/limiters etc. They know I might have to source an oddball part or have some part custom built to spec. They know it can be time and labor intensive as long as they know they'll get it and just budget it into the operating costs. These guys are nice to deal with because they tend to be tech-heads and you can have the conversations you need to without trying to figure out how to phrase things in a way the layman can understand.

Now you've got the vintage "collector" who wants to relive the days of his misspent youth and the gear flippers. Oddly, in my experience they tend to grind harder on you than anybody else. They roll through ebay and pawn shops looking for busted up junk on the cheap that might have a high resale value when it's working well and in good condition. These guys are looking to maximize their resale margin so the cost of every nut bolt and screw is a fight. And of course it's all got to be "numbers matching". I see these guys coming I know I'm going to have a bad day. LOL

Then there are the working musicians who are hoping to be the next justin bieber or whatever. Those guys you get almost no arguments from in terms of cost, and they're the ones least able to pay. "My band just booked 5 jobs for next week and two on Saturday. We just need our shit to work! How soon can you get it done and what's it going to cost?" Lot of times you'll see them driving around in a re-purposed beer truck with bald tires and they don't even think twice about a 300 dollar bill. They're like a tech's wet dream! A lot of times I won't even bill them straight because I know they're hurting.

Then you get the average Joe that rolls in with guitars, amps, old stereo equipment, receivers, power amps, computer monitors, etc. They just want their stuff turned around in a timely manner as long as it's not more expensive than buying a replacement.  Those are just drop offs and pick ups 1-2 weeks later. Simple in and out jobs all day long. Pure Gravy! This is also where the cheap one hung lo crap is causing problems for service techs.

The last group are the wild cards. These are the "tone chasers" with G.A.S. You never know what the hell they're going to come up with. Many times they don't even know themselves. All they know is that they're looking for some kind of signature tone or something they're hearing in their heads. They'll roll in with "I was reading on the internet...." These are the times when you have to tactfully figure out a way to tell them what they read was pure marketing hype and bullshit (insert "audio grade capacitors" here), or that the equipment you've got won't get you where you want to go. These can be really tricky conversations.

[Kohanbash]

This reminds me of the youtube video that has been going around recently

[VK3DRB]

The art of electronics design contracting is knowing what jobs to turn down 

Agreed! I took on a job once which someone else had rejected. It was a pure technical nightmare but we got there in the end. I learnt a lesson though.

Same when relatives who you have not seen in ages calls you up and expect you to come around and fix their TV. With some southern European cultures, the ultimate insult to them is to have call a technician to fix a TV when a relative can do it for free. They would rather the TV was not fixed than to have to pay.

[nihilism]

This reminds me of the youtube video that has been going around recently

Story of my life.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Now he's all butt hurt because I refused to do the work and hit him with a minimum bench fee, howling that he thought I was a good tech.

On the surface that does sound a bit harsh, did you have to take it apart to quote?

I wouldn't have taken that job either.

[madires]

Sometimes you should have the customer sign a "I take full responsibility" paper before doing any work. If you know that something is a bad idea but your customer insists on that, then he should also take the responsibility for it. The customer will get what he asked for and you make your customer happy. Or the customer might even start rethinking his idea. If anything goes wrong show the paper. It's sad, I know. But some people will learn it just the hard way.

[Jarrod Roberson]

You did the correct thing, be sure to keep his name handy so you can charge the customary 4X fix someone elses work surcharge.

This is a common occurrence in every technical service related field. Hardware, software. I even had it worse when I was doing graphic design back in the early 90's.

I would quote a price, customer would claim their sister in law had Corel Draw and would do it for 1/4 the price, I would say, good luck with that. When they came back with some hideous thing that would not raster out, then they really got self righteous when I would quote them even more to "fix" ( basically redo in Freehand/Illustrator/PageMaker ) their abomination than I quoted to do it from scratch in the first place.

Sad thing is, none of them ever learned, they would get some lowball to do the work, it wouldn't raster to the image setter, and they bitch about having to pay to "fix" it. No amount of explanation would get through their thick skulls that you couldn't "fix" something that wasn't going to work to begin with. I was the one with the 6 figure image setter equipment and the knowledge, training and experience to use it, but they always knew better. I made a bunch of money on the side until that industry went upside down. At least shoddy work on a printed piece won't burn down a building or kill someone.

Just a commentary on the entire amp/tube/analog thing:

I haven't had an actual guitar/bass amp since I discovered the very first gen Line6 POD ( circa 2000). The "software" amps are going to completely decimate the "traditional" amp market eventually, maybe not this year, but in a generation the entire "tube voodoo" crowd will age out and the modeling amps will have taken over. Almost every want-to-be musician I know gigs with some kind of modeling amp now because they are cost efficient and easy to lug around and nobody can tell honestly claim a difference in the sound in a shitty club environment.

Positive Grid BIAS is incredible, POD Farm, TH2, GuitarRig, Amplitube, MarkStudio, etc. They are used by professional studio musicians more than anyone realizes or would want to realize, if they are "purists". The latest generation of guitar "gods" getting popular on youtube right now almost all endorse some software amp(s) and sell their own custom models and configurations. Culture is changing for sure.

Just like how LCD TVs killed the CRT TV Repairman in the US since it costs 4/5 the price of a new TV to fix an old one, they rarely get fixed. Same will go with this industry, non-modeling amps will be a niche eventually and the number of "amp techs" will be reduced greatly.

[ampdoctor]

jarrod, it's already happening, at least in the sense that the market is really starting to fracture in a number of different directions. The up shot is that after a while the working musicians start to figure out the advantages of purely analog equipment. I can't count how many times I've heard stories about how people go online to update their drivers, patches or models and lose all their presets. Or they'll inadvertently clear their memory and lose the patches they've been tweaking for months. You can almost hear the screams of anguish from several miles away. They also figure out that their finely crafted patches they did at home become useless the minute they play out in a packed to the rafters bar or one that's laid out galley style. while they're sitting and fiddling with patches between sets, the guy with the old tube amp has reached back and rolled off his treble or boosted the mids on the fly in the middle of a song. A month later the modeling fan is standing in guitar center asking the sales guy "dudeeee...you got something with knobs that sounds good for about 500 bucks?!"

While there are any number of exceptions, what I see is a push for digital and modeling amps being used by kids starting out, purely recreational players and those that don't want to piss off the neighbors while they're noodling away in the living room, and people that do a lot of home recording that requires a lot of different sounds that are easily accessible. Once the players mature, in experience not necessarily in age, you'll see them gravitating more toward less complicated more bare bones analog equipment and using effects pedals on the front end of their equipment. I don't really foresee tubes and analog going anywhere anytime soon. what I do see is something of a reshuffling of the market mix.

So here's my prediction on where things are going if you're in the electronics service industry, and I'm more than willing to admit that I may be way off base.

First, learn to work on EVERYTHING! Guitars, amplifiers, mixers, monitors, computer power supplies; if it plugs into a wall learn to deal with it.

Second, learn to scratch build custom equipment. I don't mean cobbled together home brewed stuff that looks decent. I mean top shelf high grade perfect fit and finish equipment. People will come in with off the rail ideas about what they want and can't find it "off the rack" as it were. There's also the prestige factor that they've got something that nobody else has. There's serious bank here but you better be able to deliver with premium build quality.

Third. Mods and Hotrods! Techs need to be able to do tweaks and modifications to existing equipment. This can range from switches that do oddball things, to changes in the overall tone, to adding effects loops and midi switching. This also includes all sorts of microcontroller based madness.

So basically, you need to be really diversified in what you can do and this means you're also going to need some serious engineering chops on both the design and manufacturing side of things. If you can't be a master of most trades and he jack of a few then you're dead in the water. On the plus side, this is also going to weed out all the hacks and butchers who barely know which end of a firestick they're supposed to hold on to.

[kc9qvl]

When asked about difficul, Not impossible, things.  My usual reply is "Just about anything can be done, Just how much money do you want to put into it".  Then get the customer right into budgets and time frames.  At least my boss asks me not tells me how long something will take.

[BTO]

I wouldn't feel right if i didn't contribute to this post

MAN.. I FEEL WHAT YOUR SAYING

My Profession is , I"m a Computer Engineer and Telecommunications Technician

i do Computer, Networks, Satellite, Terrestrial, Phone Lines , Broadband, Intercom Systems

I've been running my business now for over 13 years
I'm also a Technical Professional and Expert

AND I MAKE SURE THAT I EXPLAIN THAT TO A CUSTOMER

You want an Example, Here's a very basic One,  Simple and Straightforward,but.. it proves the point


SCENARIO: (Relating to Satellite Dish Installation for Optus D2, Religious Channels,   HOPE TV, the client is a low income earning islander living in Mount Druitt)

- I installed the Satellite Dish Installation and got everything working
- Prior to installing it, we had agreed on a price, the client got me to come out 3 times and each time he promised he had the money ready for Payment on completion of work
   when i get there, he says  "Sorry bro, the dole cheque didnt come in, or it did, but he had to buy smokes
-anyway, it's all installed and it works
- the Satellite Receiver is Plugged into AV1 onto the TV input
- the client has been trained as to how to use the System, and has demonstrated that they understand it.
- i get paid , i leave, the client is happy

about a week goes by, the client calls up and says "the HOPE channel is not working"

- i do the standard troubleshooting, check cables , Power etc
- the facts,   the Receiver is plugged in
- the power is ON and lights are visible on the receiver indicating power
- Client Turns to AV1 input using his TV Remote, but there is no picture  IT'S JUST BLACK

so.. obviously, over the phone
it's clear that either

- RCA Cables have been unplugged   or
- The Video Connector on the rear of the receiver is not functional     or
- the client is on the Wrong Input channel

I'M insisting that he has the cable unplugged or is on the Wrong input
he insists he can see AV1 When he changes the input -   i decide to trust him on it

i get him to trace the cable from AV1 on the TV back to the Set top box and make sure it's all connected correctly
he does that

HE SAYS IT'S ALL CONNECTED

He insists i come out
i told him the call out fee is $80

if it's a faulty receiver ,it'll be free of charge (warranty replacement and no call out fee)

i get there onsite

i ask the client to show me the problem and reproduce it

NOW.. Within 1 Minute
I trace the cable from AV1 on the TV to AV out on the VIDEO PLAYER  (not the Set Top  Box)

i check the video in the Video  Player   (the Cassette inside is.. THE WIGGLES

without telling the client what the problem is,   just yet
i politely asked him

is it possible that your children could have touched the cables  (Even though i know it's the case)

he swears black and blue, it's not the case

i showed him the cable trace from TV to Video

i then Unplug the cable from Video
and return it to the Satellite Receiver

OBVIOUSLY,   the picture comes back on

i Explain to the client that the screen was black becasue while plugged into the Video, the video was Powered OFF

and because they originally didn't have an RCA cable for the video, it's very logical to assume that the kids rigged up the wiggles, then left it that way, and went out to play

Long Story short,
he thought about it, and accepted my resolution

i charged him $80 Callout

he complained as to why he was paying $80 for about 5 mins
his words were  "You did nothing, You just plugged in 1 cable"

Now.. Not that i should have to

but.. for the sake of harmony between client and Engineer, i offered to lower my fee to $50

he counter offered with $20

I told him to not worry about it

we had this long conversation (for about 45 mins.... Time Wasted, not working)

at the end of the day
i said to him

Look, .. Not to be rude, but..
I'm an Engineer, I'm a professional Person, I'm an Expert in my Field.
Now.. Your looking at it from a point of view of   Time Taken vs  How much you pay

I could have taken longer if i wanted ,  Would that then mean you pay me more

Listen,  i tried to work this out wtih you over the phone
i asked you to follow 1 Cable , and you said it was plugged in correctly

You called ME out , You said you couldn't it

NOW.. that's the difference
the reason why i'm quick is because i'm a professional

YOUR NOT PAYING ME FOR TIME, 
Your paying me for my Knowledge
Your paying me because i have more knowledge than 90% or Antenna Installers that you could call
i have the knowledge and experience to fix things quickly
Your paying me because you didn't know how to fix it yourself............... right

otherwise why would you pay me

Your paying for the solution, not for the time


He Refused to pay my fee,  He offered me $20 and tried to act all Religious and Honourable

i told him , he could keep his $20
i explained to him what it means to be an engineer
I explained to him that i didn't go to Uni For 6 Years, and read, God only knows how many books, and sit through god knows how many lectures,
and i don't sit up until 5 in the morning reading Wikipeadia on certain subjects that interest me for nothing

but i certainly don't do all that, and put in the effort to be an engineer
Only to have someone Bargain with me on Price
and to offer me (excuse the french)  a Mesely F#$ing $20

My Fees are reasonable as they are
$80 is industry standard

i told the client
for the same work in a commerical evironment my fee is $320 Per hour

i told the client to keep his money

i told the client that i have never blacklisted any client in the past,  but now he is blacklisted

i told the client, for the sake of peace, i would rather he use another installer in the future
and..
if he decides to use me, there would be conditions

they are
when i'm on the phone with him .. (Before i call out to his site)
he must pay the fee upfront to my bank account before i come out
if i come out and it's a warranty issue,  I'll refund the money to him. ON THE SPOT

He has never called again





I have learned Overtime,   Stick to your rates  (keep them reasonable)
and never change them

no one gets discounts  (your rates should already been reasonable for everyone)
not even $1 off (you have to be strict)

Now, in doing this, You will filter out the unwanted clients, and you will be left with good clients
these good clients
you treat well, because they treat you well


8 Years ago, a lot of my clients had trouble paying or were complaining for whatever reason

today My clients commonly say
"Come out.. Don't worry about the cost, Whatever you say, we will pay"

and i can almost guarantee that when i get onsite, i'm not only going to get paid, and be thanked, and treated as a professional
they will Serve me Coffee,
they Feed Me

My Customers Now are the absolute best
and i treat them well

in doing so, they respect me as an Engineer and a professional

I don't really need to do anymore marketing

Word Now gets around, and they talk me up
it's priceless

it's simply a filtering process

but.. Stick to you guns
Charge your Fee

Your a Professional, You deserve it

and remember something i like to say commonly


CLIENTS ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO JUDGE US
They don't have the knowledge or the experience or the Understanding

Hence.. THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO HAVE AN OPINION ON THE MATTER

PS. some people will take this comment as arrogance,
If you do, You've missed the point

IF YOU UNDERSTAND IT, You will Know what im saying

THAT'S MY 2 CENTS WORTH
I have more stories, but i don't want to hog the forum

[BTO]

SORRY , i forgot to say one last thing

I Don't value Money too highly

i Commonly Turn Down work based on Ethics

i recently turned down a Job that i quoted $33,000 for,  (it was 30 Apartments, Terrestrial Installation, 4 wall Points per Apartment)
i quoted $33,000
i attended a meeting of the board FREE OF CHARGE to explain why it had to be done the way i proposed

They got a cheaper Quote
the quote was $3,000 for everything

they asked me to do it cheaper

i warned them to not accept this quote
 BUT. THEY DID

i Refuse to accept jobs that put me in a position that  would show others that i'm not a professional

i Commonly Get asked
"Can you get us Foxtel illegally by Chipping receivers or by burning Smartcards"
"Can you just run a cable to the other room from my Reciever"  (when it should be done properly, via a Modulator or via a Dual LNB)
"Just run the coaxial cable down the wall, don't worry about the power cables that are running along side the coaxial cable"

I absolutely refuse to do these jobs
i do the job right,

and my rule is

IT'S DONE MY WAY, OR... I DON'T DON'T THE DO THE JOB

in which case, i refer to client to other techies , who i know , are good at heart, but,  .. realistically don't have as much experience

after a while clients get the picture , and they all inevitably end up coming back 2 to 3 years later
its simply a cycle

i try to tell them upfront that they'll be back in 3 years,
and they can avoid all this and save thousands of dollars

but.. Sadly , people don't listen

Your right to refuse the job
and
if something is impossible

then.. it's impossible
if clients are stupid

then  Don't listen to a stupid person's instructions,  that , then makes you stupid
stick to your guns

[Bored@Work]

BTO, consider cutting down on the XXXX Gold.

[M4trix]

This reminds me of the youtube video that has been going around recently