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For over 15 years we have been buying this case. In fact we had various complete products built in it out there, until the company vanished, with a total loss of stock and test equipment (standard Chinese practice). We paid for original tooling in 2005. So we paid again for a new tool, USD3k, with another company a few years ago and moved the product manufacturing to the UK.
However I suspect that we were conned both times and the tool charges were a fake, and this is actually a standard box in the Chinese market. I am fairly sure this is the case (no pun intended) because the 2nd case has some little features not on the drawing, which the original one had and for which there would be no point in incorporating them in the tool.
The 2nd company, after shipping 10k cases, increased the price 3x (basically the UK level). They did this right after the tool was paid for (another standard Chinese practice) and came back down when I refused to pay it. This time I asked for the tool to be returned to us, and they did another standard Chinese thing (excommunication; works because they know a Westerner will never travel to China to see what is going on) so now we are down USD 3k plus some hefty prepayments (basically, stolen money) on some bare PCB orders which won't be shipped... so we will have to get new tooling done (in the UK - about 5k - as it would be crazy to repeat this exercise in today's China) so all in all this piece of criminal activity is going to cost us about 10k. Luckily we have plenty of stock of the case so there is time...
This is what the case looks like and below is a bit of the original drawing. But the drawing shows just the PCB dimensions; it is not a drawing for the component i.e. the tooling. The name YORKTRON doesn't google to anything, but if it is say 20 years old it probably would not anyway. Also a lot of Chinese make up English names for overseas consumption - same as they do with sales people's names. It is also possible the case was never marketed outside China.
Very many thanks for any tips. -
I couldn't find it as a standard box. The hard part is which category it's in; sorta "handheld" without rubber grips and two square cutouts as a "cable assy"
I see many companies, OEM enclosure manufacturers just reselling this stuff. Or you were dealing through a middleman all along and this is Yorktron.
I looked here https://www.chinaenclosure.com/ but many in Taiwan as well, better quality.
Also http://www.changhe-enclosures.com/ (slow website) surely all in bed together. They were around USD $5,000 for a mould, it's like candy bars there they pump them out constantly but in the USA they ask $25-40K as if CNC machining gold billet lol. With 3D CADD and specialized software, I think people are asking way too much for making a mould nowadays.
good reads, esp. the manufacturing agreement and shenanigans that get pulled:
On the Importance of China Mold Ownership and Protection Agreements
How to leave china safely
How not to Lose Your Molds/Tooling in China
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Thank you for looking
Yes very possibly Yorktron was a middleman. In China perhaps 90% of companies which a westerner sees are reselling somebody else's stuff. If one looks at Global Sources (used to be called Asian Sources and published a nice printed catalogue; I used it for many years) one sees so many companies selling what is obviously the same stuff; even same photos are used.
Chinese tooling would cost USD 1k for a box like this, in 2005. We paid 3k a few years ago after "Yorktron" vanished. The UK cost would be 10k the whole time but the quality would be much higher, although the last tool was actually very good (probably because it was new).
The "Chinese art" is excommunication. They know a small Western businessman will not visit their "factory" in China, and even if he wanted to he will be afraid of getting beaten up. It is also a big job; you need to hire an interpreter, etc. And the big Western firms (Apple e.g.) have their own people on-site so they can manage a withdrawal safely, but OTOH they probably don't need to withdraw because they have so much power - even over Foxconn. I can't see Apple etc ever withdrawing from China, although they would be wise to set up secondary mfg sites.
Interesting links on how to get out of China. Yeah... seen this. Those links are applicable to big firms and they have more options. A small company here just loses everything they have in China, if the company out there simply chooses to stop answering emails and not actions phone calls. -
I personally know many people that use Chinese manufacturers and suppliers that never get screwed over but then I see stuff like this online all the time. These aren't particularly "big" corporations either, they're all small business or startups. I know people with Chinese manufacturers which actively inform of infringement attempts and help defend their IP for them. So I'm not sure how people manage to get themselves screwed over? I've spoken directly with one person that claimed to have been screwed by a Chinese PCBA but they didn't exactly give off the aura of a competent business person.
Do people never try actually meeting their suppliers or building up a relationship? Is the most people do throw out an Alibaba RFQ and pick the lowest bidder? I'd like to know how people actually end up getting screwed?
I did also go through HAX which is a startup accelerator with a specific focus on setting people up to successfully manufacture hardware in China so that's likely a source of bias in my experience/network. -
"Do people never try actually meeting their suppliers"
That is quite a challenge... although obviously it would be fairly effective.
I am sure some Chinese companies do what they do because their customers don't travel to China and are never likely to.
Regarding putting something out for a quote, I normally go to Global Sources and send it to say 20 companies. Of the responses, say 10, the majority are illiterate, obviously reselling somebody else's product, or just sounding blatently opportunistic. So one narrows it down to a few who sound businesslike and seem to understand the requirement.
I think the risk of getting screwed depends on how long you use a company. If you use a company just a few times, they may not go under in that time, But over say 5 years it is very likely, in modern China, that it will go bust. And then you will lose whatever your exposure was. Tooling, the last prepayment, etc.
I've never used Alibaba. -
That is quite a challenge... although obviously it would be fairly effective.
Is it not worth the cost of a reliable and more robust supply chain? I seems common sense for people I've met and worked with. How much does a trip to China cost from the UK (or US) in the pre-COVID era? I guess it's cheaper to do China/Asia visits from Australia.I am sure some Chinese companies do what they do because their customers don't travel to China and are never likely to.
Yeah I'd think so too. Hard to give much of a toss about some random, foreign, small time customer whose only existence to you was emails in a foreign language and small checks in the bank. Not to say the practice isn't dodgy.I think the risk of getting screwed depends on how long you use a company. If you use a company just a few times, they may not go under in that time, But over say 5 years it is very likely, in modern China, that it will go bust. And then you will lose whatever your exposure was. Tooling, the last prepayment, etc.
There are plenty of Chinese companies that have lasted longer with ample integrity but a lot of these new small businesses willing to do low cost manufacturing for anyone and everyone that enquires online do seem to be less stable.
For "first class" high-quality suppliers in China I've found them to be not too much cheaper than a reputable US manufacturer for example. The main advantage with these higher cost Chinese manufacturers seems to be a speed and logistics advantage, particularly with all your various suppliers being relatively close thanks to China being the manufacturing hub of the world. I know some manufacturing setups in China run by people from Australia/US/EU for this reason.I've never used Alibaba.
Likewise, I've never used Global Source. So far I've used: personal recommendations, Alibaba, JD, Taobao and 1688. Not sure about Global Source but Alibaba offers a QA and inspection service as well as some insurance service though I've never used it. If quality and reliability matters then you really should be doing it yourself in-person IMO. If it's not possible then it's probably better to stay domestic as you've decided it seems.
Edit: I can't remember anyone I know personally using Global Source which might be telling of the quality of suppliers there. -
Looking at the positives first
what you do get from China, and not generally get in the West, is consistency.
I've been buying bare boards from China for 20+ years because UK mfgs would skip BBT if the end of the month was coming up. The result is a few % of duff boards which creates absolute havoc. The shorts cannot usually be found (under a component, etc) and the opens produce a circuit which can work until the customer gets it.
And China is still a lot cheaper for simple items like PCBs, moulded cables, etc. And I will continue to use them for that, because even if the company goes bust after ever job, it isn't too bad. And a lot of Chinese PCB mfgs chuck away PCB tooling after 1 year and then laugh in your face when you complain...
Re visiting China, well, you first need an interpreter. The airline ticket is the least of your worries. Then you have a lot of travelling to the 7-line address, Suite 173 of Building 1097, etc, and what will you see there? Yes, of course this is useful. But it is hard to judge the business acumen of people from a very foreign culture. In so many ways, comms could be with a company on Mars.
I know someone who uses Chinese companies for CNC machining of metal parts and finds them very good. Again, a very simple relationship. That works.
Mouldings probably don't work anymore, because the above moulding, USD 0.30 after the price increase, plus some $500-$1000 for shipping 10k of them, is about the same as getting it moulded in the UK, and in the UK the circuit is shorter if you want specific plastics, colours, etc. And a lot less risk because the $3k tool risk isn't there (unless the UK firm goes bust and is totally liquidated without you discovering it, which is very unlikely), there is no prepayment, and you get the mouldings a month (the sea freight time) earlier.
The Global Sources catalogue was the place to go to. Not sure it no longer is; I still find good contacts there. Just got 3000 toroidal transformers wound. A UK firm used to do them for £1.20 including the core; used it for 20 years. Then they sold out to another company which quoted £11. In China I am getting them done for $0.50, free issue cores at £0.12 each.
https://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/Multilayer-PCB-manufacturers/b/2000000003844/3000000157770/12101.htm?view=grid -
Interesting to know. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Good to point out domestic suppliers aren't necessarily perfect either.Mouldings probably don't work anymore, because the above moulding, USD 0.30 after the price increase, plus some $500-$1000 for shipping 10k of them, is about the same as getting it moulded in the UK, and in the UK the circuit is shorter if you want specific plastics, colours, etc. And a lot less risk because the $3k tool risk isn't there (unless the UK firm goes bust and is totally liquidated without you discovering it, which is very unlikely), there is no prepayment, and you get the mouldings a month (the sea freight time) earlier.
Sounds like domestic moulding is the go for you then; though I feel a good injection moulder should be able to help you source whatever resin you want in China without too much trouble. Can't say there really anything like that in Australia AFAIK.Re visiting China, well, you first need an interpreter. The airline ticket is the least of your worries. Then you have a lot of travelling to the 7-line address, Suite 173 of Building 1097, etc, and what will you see there? Yes, of course this is useful. But it is hard to judge the business acumen of people from a very foreign culture. In so many ways, comms could be with a company on Mars.
Well I'm personally open to learning the language and the culture to do better business.
I think being semi-permanently (several month stint) set up there and doing product development at the same time (as part of HAX) made it much more useful as the "fast and cheap" but not necessarily perfect approach there makes prototyping and development much cheaper/faster, additionally at the same time you can build up relationships and tour several potential CMs. -
Mouldings probably don't work anymore, because the above moulding, USD 0.30 after the price increase, plus some $500-$1000 for shipping 10k of them, is about the same as getting it moulded in the UK, and in the UK the circuit is shorter if you want specific plastics, colours, etc. And a lot less risk because the $3k tool risk isn't there (unless the UK firm goes bust and is totally liquidated without you discovering it, which is very unlikely), there is no prepayment, and you get the mouldings a month (the sea freight time) earlier.
UK moulding recommendation for small enclosures? -
AFAIK for low-ish volume stuff UK moulding is expensive.
Probably worth checking out these dudes. -
OP I no longer share your optimism when dealing with china for electronic components, kinda sour about it. I find relationships or "guanxi" apply only to the People which Westerners are not. After the initial honeypot, they are opportunists and will cheapen things to no limits- as you let them, and jack up prices once you are hooked and in need of their parts.
I traced problems back to the transformer, permeability way low. Emails to the manufacturer and translation hassles, reveals "annealing was changed".
Not used to that kind of problem, as if I'd know what is involved in making nickel-iron. I guess the metallurgy quality over there is a bit loosey goosey but I'm fine to toss the cartons of parts in the garbage and let higher ups haggle over who should pay. It's not worth shipping them back. But still, what a hassle.
Of course it's our fault because the control drawings did not specify EVERYTHING. Wire size, insulation, core properties, hi-pot, winding geometry etc. etc. Without this, you can get "variations"... as they save every penny or just due to the quality wandering- and it's permissible because it is not specified by the customer.
A now gone forum member said "china's only advantage is their population, they pay the same as everyone else for materials".
But I can't buy the raw materials alone compared to the price of completed parts out of china. Something is grossly wrong.
I think they are dumping products, certainly PCB's, aluminum, steel etc. as a national strategy to stomp out the competition. How many companies in the UK are making transformers? At what point is Brian Sowter going to be worth it lol. It's literally 20-30X more expensive. -
"UK moulding recommendation for small enclosures?"
There must be 10 companies within a 10 mile radius, in the UK. I used to be next door to one such, running 24/7, with 1 machine, churning out plastic cups. I am sure he was the cheapest around, in that business.
"I find relationships or "guanxi" apply only to the People which Westerners are not. After the initial honeypot, they are opportunists and will cheapen things to no limits- as you let them, and jack up prices once you are hooked and in need of their parts."
Yes I think they often just hate us. But hey you could say that about so many scenarios. Do you think the Spanish like the Brits living there, or the French like the Brits buying up the old barns? Those Brits are busy moving back to the UK because they found that despite learning the language and making some effort they were never accepted. Whereas in the UK European foreigners are normally taken at face value.
But the real problem in modern China is that it is fast moving and anybody enterprising is trying to make a fast buck. The average company "we" deal with has say 100 people and 1 of them speaks English, and if that one person (who is in high demand) moves on (which they do every 6 months) you have to almost start again. And people don't care about screwing somebody over. I've found the Chinese totally shameless. But as long as they are cheap they will get business.
"Of course it's our fault because the control drawings did not specify EVERYTHING"
You you have to be specific in the spec. If possible, free issue the materials. I have bought 6000 cores and sent only 3000 to China to be wound, so if they vanish before they ship, I haven't lost all the cores (16 week lead time)
", they pay the same as everyone else for materials"
They do NOT. They get almost everything for much less. Plastics, cables, metal parts. All much cheaper. Here in the West everybody in business is trying to make 100k+ so they can have 3 cars outside the house and kids in a private school.
Western chip companies sell chips for far less in China than in the West. They always have done. But only to big volume mfgs. Intel pricing for example was perhaps 30% of Western pricing. I have come across companies there who managed to buy chips there and ship them to here but today they are hard to find.
Notably, metalwork is vastly cheaper in China. Here, any sort of metal enclosure costs a few quid - unless you can knock it out with a complicated press tool in one go. Even 1k+ it is a few quid. In China it is under $1.
"How many companies in the UK are making transformers?"
Those are labour intensive, so they went to China. But also the Chinese can buy the ferrites for a lot less, from no-name companies out there. Compare the price of an RJ45 with integral magnetics (e.g. Hanrun) with Western-made versions (Wurth is a good example of grossly overpriced stuff). But even Hanrun are being counterfeited at about 1/3 of the price...
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You're cheating by sending them the cores lol. How did you resist the massive cost savings, they really hate having to not use their own materials. I found they still have to i.e. buy German fasteners and bearings sometimes, they simply can't do precision parts... yet. Or complex test equipment, they will search locally then give up and import it.
I've often wondered how many are State Owned Enterprises at the top level, and it's a plethora of shell companies that are offering the same stuff to the West.
So your transformer is simply wound and taped in china? If the labour costs were $0, that toroid or enclosure manufactured locally would still never be priced close to what is coming in off the boat. I'm suspicious they're dumping because there is nothing else left that could lower the end cost an order of magnitude say 20x.
I'm curious, if you bought the latest technology coil-winding machines, why would it still cost more to do it locally? Price of copper wire, people working slower less of a sweatshop etc. I can't see what is eating up the cash. -
The £1.20 UK company disappearing and the one which bought their assets charging £11 is just people taking the piss. Obviously I am not paying £11. But I've found UK transformer makers aren't interested in doing business. I bought a couple of 230V to 4.5kV transformers for a flash tester and they took 6 months to arrive...
The chinese company charges USD 0.50 to wind the free issue cores, which I judge to be about the right price. I had an offer at USD 0.35 but the company communicated badly.
If you bought a toroidal winding machine and got somebody on the NMW (national min wage) to sit in front of it, it would also be very cheap, but not viable unless it is running all the time. It's like it isn't worth getting your own SMT placement and reflow (due to the cost of the operator) even if you can buy the two machines ex-bankrupt quite cheap.
I have found the secret of dealing with China: buy a LOT and buy it rarely Then the hassle occurs rarely.
I like to buy just once a year, preferably once in a few years, and with a lot of cheap stuff this is easy. For example we use little springs. Used to pay 20p here. I found a chinese spring maker who quoted about 1p, for 300k of them. Now, 300k will last us about 50 years, but it cost just 3k to buy them They came in little sealed bags, 100/bag, with silica gel, while the UK ones were going rusty quickly.
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I agree the local old dinosaur companies charging a fortune, will die out and go extinct. That boss will never get a new Jag... unless government grants keep them alive.
The cost of a mould, the setup fees for a PCB or assembly - are ridiculously high in the West. Quotes for a tiny custom spring (even in stock ones) Willie Washer USA were $4 each, regardless of quantity
Who wouldn't go East?
I'm wondering if you are saying "on-shoring" is a myth? The only possibility for low cost is automation to compete with NMW, and to eliminate middlemen (and fatmen) in the supply chain. Your shipping/duties costs can't be insignificant- just to get winding and tape. -
I think on-shoring is happening but not with the big names. Not with those who have their own people sitting in China and kicking butt as required. And on-shoring will be causing a lot more chinese firms to go bust than do anyway.
What may happen is that china will to some extent go back to making the cheap and simple stuff they started with decades ago. That is not what they want, obviously. But their behaviour will bring it about.
Import duty from China is only about 5%. It would have to go to 50-100%, or 500% on phones, to make the big names do on-shoring.
Shipping is not insignificant but still worth doing. The 3k little transformers will cost perhaps USD 100 by DHL to ship back. So the chinese get 3000 x USD 0.50 or so, plus I pay $100 shipping, plus 5% import duty.
It does not make sense to build complete products out there anymore, because the labour content of assembling a PCB in a box is very small, and labour intensive wiring can be designed-out. I did this a few years ago; no longer making complete products out there. Just bare PCBs, cables (RJ45-DB9 etc), txf winding, springs, and plastic parts are coming back home now, although I am getting shafted to pay 2.5x the last price for 10k which I will buy (it is the UK price too) and ship the tool back with the 10k. -
The 2nd company, after shipping 10k cases, increased the price 3x (basically the UK level). They did this right after the tool was paid for (another standard Chinese practice) and came back down when I refused to pay it. This time I asked for the tool to be returned to us, and they did another standard Chinese thing (excommunication; works because they know a Westerner will never travel to China to see what is going on)
Ask Naomi Wu for help, she did something similar with a company that insisted on in person visit to get GPL code for a product they're selling.
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I bought plastic handheld enclosures from China. They came with the halves misaligned and twisted so it was not possible to assemble them properly. Never again, and can't be happier.
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OP, did I stumble onto your enclosure here? Bud Industries Plastibox. Perhaps your enclosure was an OEM part and that door got closed.
china can make good quality, it's just that people sort by price and buy the cheapest. The better shops appear to only be OEM's to third-party sellers. Example Ritec Taiwan is OEM for some Hammond enclosures, and Bud Industries plastic enclosures are also top quality - but either is totally impractical because they are stupid expensive and... Bud Industries does not do the Metric system. Sigh. -
The Bud ones look similar but aren't the same. They could be Chinese but at their prices (about 10x the actual cost) they could be moulded in Switzerland
Yes it is certainly true that the reason why most Chinese stuff is crap is because most (all but the very big) Western companies make their premium products back home and buy the cheap end of their range from China. That serves two purposes: you maintain your domestic expertise etc while serving the cost sensitive markets where customer demands cannot possibly be fulfilled from domestic production (by a factor of several times, usually).
The problem is that unless one has one's own people out there (possible only for the biggest companies like Apple) one cannot run strategically vital production in China, because you never know when the supplier will blow up or try to shaft you. I don't see any way around that, other than by buying a large quantity, enough to last a few years, and then reordering when there is say a couple of years' of stock left. Then you always have a year or two to sort out a new supplier, and the cost of the "stolen" tooling is a smaller %.
Taiwanese stuff is more upmarket; better quality and more expensive, and the companies are more stable. One middleman I have been using for many years, until recently, for contract manufacturing, withdrew from China totally a year or so ago and is now using purely Taiwan.
I've looked at PCBs from S Korea but the prices are high and comms were difficult.
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Every company that sets up shop in china gets their IP ripped off and disseminated to the People. I've seen it, stunned when competitor's CADD drawings are handed out like crisps at a meeting.
Example: Google source code, Saleen china scam, ARM Holdings, and now Tesla is suing Rivian a second time for headhunting and stealing their battery tech. How can Tesla be so stupid- yet this is the price for manufacturing over there and presumably selling your product to that theoretical large market of millions, who can't afford it.
I would never get an entire product built there but MBA's and corporate executives don't care if the IP is stolen, as long as this quarter's profits look good for stockholders. It's just components, parts that are less dangerous.
I was wondering if there was a chance for "on-shoring" to at least slow the decline of the electronics industry due to outsourcing. Or if it's another myth politicians and exec's are on about.
I had one local board stuffing house actually sneak over to S. Korea to source the PCB's for products they were building for us. We were exclusively using North American PCB fab. Who authorized the cheapola outsourcing? It's the local PCB assembly house making extra profit by supplying cheap PC boards. Next they could just get the boards built there lol. This is management making outsourcing deals Engineering knows nothing about, then come back crying when it doesn't work. It did not work because one product used microwaves and Dk can't be that crappy so the tuning was trashed. The other product the copper de-laminated peel strength was poor for heavier parts. The Korean PC boards are very low cost and lower quality. -
"UK moulding recommendation for small enclosures?"
Any recommendations? Not looking for a guarantee, just "try this company."
There must be 10 companies within a 10 mile radius, in the UK. I used to be next door to one such, running 24/7, with 1 machine, churning out plastic cups. I am sure he was the cheapest around, in that business. -
I bought plastic handheld enclosures from China. They came with the halves misaligned and twisted so it was not possible to assemble them properly. Never again, and can't be happier.
You had bought factory rejects from drop shippers.
You can outsource the work, but you can't outsource your responsibility.
Able to find, select, qualify, and retain good vendors are the responsibility and the competitive strength of a good company. All good vendors have more than enough work to keep them busy, and are not spamming all over the place. They are in a good position to walk off if they sense the clients going to be lazy, unreasonable or problematic. Good ones also do not need to reach out to unknown foreign cleints in foreign languages that they are not familiar. Find someone who are willing to risk their reputation to recommend you to his/her good vendors should be the first approach. -
If we could not stray into over political discussion on this one. What applies to china applies to any country, trading has to be done largely on faith unless you have the money to sue and you have a contract that recognises a legal jurisdiction that may not be the one of the buyer or seller. It's as simple as that. Companies going bust is always a risk. It's why for large important sourcing of materials or even expertise some companies put a lot of effort into their supply chain. For example my employer gets all source files off their electronics contractor, not just so that they can go elsewhere if they are being messed about but also as a guarantee against our own output just stopping if that company disappears.
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[...] What applies to china applies to any country, trading has to be done largely on faith unless you have the money to sue and you have a contract that recognises a legal jurisdiction that may not be the one of the buyer or seller. It's as simple as that. [...]
I disagree, they do not comprehend the Rule of Law that defines the West. The "100 years of national humiliation" has rightfully resulted in angry nationalism that people need to be aware of. Copyright infringement? Theft of IP? Phone the police lol. The narrative is mistrust and bias against foreign entities, as they damaged the country many years ago.
I think it's impossible to talk about sourcing electronics components without the politics of developing nations coming up.
Nothing has impacted the global electronics profession as much as china and it's important to not be naive or have a gag order, and share the pitfalls.
I understand emotions, anger, hostility will cause a thread to crash'n burn though.
Imagine sourcing this simple plastic box being such a hassle.