Education level required for employment as EE

[Omega Glory]

    I will be applying to colleges this year, and I am interested in pursuing a career in electrical engineering. From what I have gathered from this forum and other sources, most EE programs at colleges will not prepare you well for a career in electrical engineering, but rather, most of your knowledge and skill will come from work experience. I have, however, read that in order to secure an EE job at many companies, you must possess a EE degree. I was wondering if any of you would tell me if a bachelors degree is adequate, or if a masters degree is required for most job applications. Also, if I have misunderstood how a college education and degree in EE benefits students, I would be grateful if you corrected me.

[nanofrog]

It'll depend on what you're applying for (i.e. more generalized/common areas vs. something highly specialized). But just starting out in a more common/general topic area, a BS is enough to get your foot in the door. It's the highly specialized stuff, such as CPU design, that will require a graduate degree (MS or PhD, with the latter being more common for my example). And if you want to go into management, an MBA would be in order.

The degree teaches you how to think and gives you the relevant background to be able to understand what you'll encounter once in the workplace. Ideally, you'll get to mentor with some more experienced engineers along the way (common in large companies; SMB's & startups, not so much).

[rstofer]

I wish electronic engineering had a different designator than electrical engineering.  I realize the topic here is electronics and electronic engineering but in my view electrical engineering is a completely different field having to do with power generation, distribution and utilization.  There's good money in designing electrical systems for industrial applications and good security in working for a public utility.,  Side issues, I know...

I would think a BS would be a way to get a foot in the door but these days, degrees are all over the place.  An MSEE might provide better opportunities as long as the major is in the right area.  Try to get one or more summer intern jobs.  Yes, it will be scut work but at least you'll meet people in the field and get known around the company.

Whether you go for MSEE or MBA, plan on doing one of the other.  Management usually pays better than actually doing the work but it has the downside of having to deal with personnel issues.

[German_EE]

"I wish electronic engineering had a different designator than electrical engineering.  I realize the topic here is electronics and electronic engineering but in my view electrical engineering is a completely different field having to do with power generation, distribution and utilization.  There's good money in designing electrical systems for industrial applications and good security in working for a public utility.,  Side issues, I know..."

As an Electrical Engineer I feel your pain. I do however work on electronics for fun as I'm now too old and too fat to climb up and down elevator shafts.

[EEVblog]

The BS will get your foot into the door on most engineering jobs.
The MS degree may actually be of no benefit if the job you are going for is outside the scope of your MS thesis. But then again there are lots of higher end jobs that simply ask for an MS or higher, just because.

A candidate with a BS and experience in the field the job requires will almost always trump an MS with no experience in the field the job is about.
Experience almost always trumps qualifications. So pick the field you have an interest in and get whatever degree you want, then take the first job in that field that comes along.
Worrying "should I get a BS or an MS" without knowing what interests you and what field you might want to get into can be a bit of a pointless debate.

[Wilo]

In my experience, a BS is fine; most of my EE coworkers only have undergraduate degrees. What really helps is a background in a related industry - aviation, in my case.

Higher level degrees help for promotion/specialization.

[T3sl4co1l]

From what I've seen in the US, it's very unlikely that you'll get a job title and pay, consistent with an Electrical Engineering position, unless you have a BS or higher degree.

There are plenty of techs, with highschool or associate's education, who are doing the full functions of an EE -- but aren't getting paid for it!  / / 

I don't think more than MS is worthwhile.  MS will be requested in more advanced and specialized fields, and an MS curriculum teaches more specialized knowledge.  But heck, if you can show you're good enough at the subject, go ahead and apply for jobs asking for more than your degree -- the worst that can happen is HR filters strictly and your resume ends up in the bin.

Not that places will turn down a PhD, but I don't think the incremental value is anywhere near justified getting a PhD.  Not like other PhD-heavy fields, like medicine.

A PhD also implies an area of extremely focused study, which means huge value to the handful of companies working in that field, but not much outside of that.  I've met plenty of PhDs who, in general, away from their narrow field, aren't much smarter than an average BS; that's not strange, it's just human.

As for where you get your degree(s), you'll certainly have a better education* at a better school, and you can probably negotiate higher starting salary with that too.  But as for what you've learned, it doesn't matter much.  All that matters is your own grasp of the subject, and how well that fits industry.

*Don't forget the primary purpose of school.  It's not education.  Education is secondary, no matter what they say.  Successful people see through that, and find the true purpose: making business connections.  Befriend the faculty: they usually have industry connections.  Find the sharpest, nicest, and most entrepreneurial students and befriend them.  Partner up, start a thing, fail, and start more things!  Even if you and your partners do nothing but fail miserably, you'll have the experience to know what not to do, and that's something you can put on your resume.  (Suitably prettied up, of course.  But don't be afraid to be honest with these things in the interview.  Honesty can take you far.  Lying is for politicians, not engineers!)

Tim

[Omega Glory]

Thank you all very much for your replies, they were all quite helpful.

A candidate with a BS and experience in the field the job requires will almost always trump an MS with no experience in the field the job is about. Experience almost always trumps qualifications. So pick the field you have an interest in and get whatever degree you want, then take the first job in that field that comes along. Worrying "should I get a BS or an MS" without knowing what interests you and what field you might want to get into can be a bit of a pointless debate.

That does bring up another point. Electrical Engineering is a very broad field, and there are many different kinds of jobs that fall under that category. I know I am interested in electronics engineering as opposed to power engineering, which narrows it down some, but that is still pretty broad. I will definitely look into the different fields and will try to learn more about what is involved in day to day work in those fields. How did you all decided what to specialize in?

[MT]

Stay away from places who can only offer you cow cubicles as work place.

[Galenbo]

Stay away from places who can only offer you cow cubicles as work place.

Still better than lean desk open workplaces.

[rstofer]

I don't think much of the electronics business.  I read the other day that Cisco was laying off thousands of electronic engineers and hiring as many code wienies.  It seems there is more profit in selling code than in selling hardware.  I have no idea where the industry is headed but I guess I would try to work with FPGAs if I could or almost anything having to do with embedded processors.  Both are actually code wienie work.  If you want to do electronics, try to design motherboards or graphics cards.

OR...

Get your BSEE and sign up for a hitch in the Air Force (Navy and Army also).  They have serious electronics needs and their systems span decades.  You will get a heck of a lot of experience in a short period of time.  Then go to work for a defense contractor.  Hire back as an overpaid consultant!

With all of the fabrication and most of the board design being done off-shore, I'm not sure what to think of the future of electronics in this country.

Whatever you decide to do, make sure it requires that YOU lay your hands on it.  If it can be outsourced, it will be!

This is a serious issue for me.  My grandson is starting college and talking about becoming an EE.  I'll help where I can but I'm not too certain of the future.  I want to make sure he also takes classes in programming.  Lots of classes - even an extra year or two.

[rstofer]

As an electronics engineer, you will probably spend your entire career sitting behind a desk designing stuff.  Never a breath of fresh air!  And the stuff you design won't even be interesting.  It will be just day after day of total monotony.  I hated desk work and my mechanical drafting sucked.  The instructor said my arrow heads looked like squashed butterflies!  Well, he was a great draftsman, no doubt.  But I traveled the world building stuff.  I never spent a day using my BS or MS in electronics.  They were just the price of admission.

Get interested in electrical.  You can design buildings, factories, automation!  You will soon get out of engineering and into project management where you will have to get away from your desk and supervise projects and people.  You will be more self-directed and, actually, the work will be more interesting.

Think about automation.  Some factory is going to build the robot and it won't be a factory in the US.  But some factory in the US will need to install and maintain the robot and that's where you can come in.  Some electrical, some electronics.  But at least it's not sitting behind a desk.  Hook up with the manufacturer and try to get a service business going.  They are often quite open to having someone local to handle repairs.  Start your own company!

[IanB]

I will be applying to colleges this year, and I am interested in pursuing a career in electrical engineering. From what I have gathered from this forum and other sources, most EE programs at colleges will not prepare you well for a career in electrical engineering, but rather, most of your knowledge and skill will come from work experience.

On the contrary, a good engineering program will prepare you very well for a career in engineering, no matter what you may have heard from some people. It prepares you by teaching you a lot of the important fundamentals, the foundation of knowledge that you will build on later in the workplace. If you have no foundation, you cannot build.

I have, however, read that in order to secure an EE job at many companies, you must possess a EE degree.

And this is the reason. Companies want to be sure you have the required foundation, and a degree from an accredited institution should give you that.

Do also note the comments from others above about electrical engineering vs electronics. Professional engineering can be a career with enormous breadth, challenges and responsibilities, but these things are associated with large, high value projects. So for a rewarding career, consider going where the money is, which is where the big, expensive projects are (hint: it is not consumer goods). An engineering degree can get you there. You aren't going to walk in off the street and be responsible for high value infrastructure where design codes have to be satisfied, the cost of failure is large, and life and safety may be at risk without having formal training.

(I am not myself an EE, I am a chemical engineer, but all the same considerations have applied in my career.)

[tggzzz]

From what I have gathered from this forum and other sources, most EE programs at colleges will not prepare you well for a career in electrical engineering, but rather, most of your knowledge and skill will come from work experience. I have, however, read that in order to secure an EE job at many companies, you must possess a EE degree. I was wondering if any of you would tell me if a bachelors degree is adequate, or if a masters degree is required for most job applications. Also, if I have misunderstood how a college education and degree in EE benefits students, I would be grateful if you corrected me.

You will find some people that say a degree is a waste of time. You must assess that person and why they have that opinion. Usually they don't have a degree, and often they have been unable to get a degree. If that's the case, how can they possibly know the value of a degree?

An engineering degree should teach you how to think, how to understand and apply fundamental theory that will last your lifetime, give you an overview of the many sub-disciplines in your chosen field (e.g. for an EE, analogue, RF, digital, high current), how to determine which are the key engineering/technical questions that should be asked and answered.

An engineering degree is the easiest, fastest and surest way of mastering those topics. But while those topics are necessary for being a good engineer, but they are not sufficient for being a good engineer.

Product technology knowledge has a half-life of maybe 5 years. Therefore while project work in an engineering degree will probably use todays products, it should not concentrate on todays hardware/software.

Practical experience is also necessary, and the best way for you to gain that is to do your own personal projects outside the course. Employers will love that, since it shows you have drive and initiative; don't hide your mistakes from them, since that shows you know how to improve.

Higher degrees are only useful if they are directly relevant to your first job.

An engineering degree isn't necessary if you want to become a technician. Consider that engineer:technician = doctor:nurse. Both doctors and nurses support each othe and both are vital; vive la difference.

As an example of how what you learn in a degree course should last a lifetime, consider that even last week I referred to a textbooks I used 40 years ago! The information is still just as accurate, pertinent and useful! (Of course, I also use newer textbooks where appropriate!)

[Zero999]

You will find some people that say a degree is a waste of time. You must assess that person and why they have that opinion. Usually they don't have a degree, and often they have been unable to get a degree. If that's the case, how can they possibly know the value of a degree?

I think the reason why some people will say that a degree is a waste of time is because they've worked with people who are very well qualified but are totally useless at their job. Of course I wouldn't say a degree is a waste of time. It just won't make anyone a good engineer.

An engineering degree isn't necessary if you want to become a technician. Consider that engineer:technician = doctor:nurse. Both doctors and nurses support each othe and both are vital; vive la difference.

I wouldn't agree with that. There are plenty of people without engineering degrees who are doing exactly the same jobs as engineers who have degrees but are paid less.

[tggzzz]

You will find some people that say a degree is a waste of time. You must assess that person and why they have that opinion. Usually they don't have a degree, and often they have been unable to get a degree. If that's the case, how can they possibly know the value of a degree?

I think the reason why some people will say that a degree is a waste of time is because they've worked with people who are very well qualified but are totally useless at their job. Of course I wouldn't say a degree is a waste of time. It just won't make anyone a good engineer.

I refer you to my other key statement, viz: "An engineering degree is the easiest, fastest and surest way of mastering those topics[gained from a degree]. But while those topics are necessary for being a good engineer, but they are not sufficient for being a good engineer. "

An engineering degree isn't necessary if you want to become a technician. Consider that engineer:technician = doctor:nurse. Both doctors and nurses support each othe and both are vital; vive la difference.

I wouldn't agree with that. There are plenty of people without engineering degrees who are doing exactly the same jobs as engineers who have degrees but are paid less.

I haven't come across them in my career. Or, alternatively, such people are doing work that doesn't require an engineering degree (most jobs in the world are like that, but they don't interest me!).

I have come across extremely competent engineers that didn't have a degree, but I can count them on the fingers of one hand.

[Galenbo]

As an electronics engineer... And the stuff you design won't even be interesting...

... You will soon get out of engineering and into project management where you will have to get away from your desk and supervise projects and people.  You will be more self-directed and, actually, the work will be more interesting.

... and try to get a service business going...

Good to see that guys who totally suck in every de-facto technical aspect of engineering can take some voluntary steps down and end up in management, and be happy there.
Someone has to do it !

[rstofer]

There's a side issue to an engineering degree independent of which field you choose:  You will take a LOT of math classes and you will learn a great deal about Physics.

Physics makes the world run and understanding it is a leg up.  Truly my favorite subject - especally Mechanics!  With Physics, I can explain just about everything there is to know about any other science.  Except gravity...

Math:  Well, EE has a bunch of math classes and I have come to the conclusion that the better you are at math, the more money you make.  Regrettably, Statistics is included in that observation.  I hate Statistics!  Truth be known, and keep this quiet, I'm not sure I really understood Maxwell's Equations.  It's only since I started playing with an analog computer that I have finally gotten a handle on Differential Equations.  They were a drag to solve with a sliderule...

Even the entry level Calculus classes are useful in various ways.  Never underestimate the value of those math classes.

It is a fact of life that managing engineers pays better than engineering itself.  As long as you plan to work for money, you might as well get as much as you can.  So, if you don't want to get an MSEE, get an MBA.  Heck, get both!  The MBA program can be a lot of fun.  Try to get over in the Operations Research side of the program.  Those folks get to play with some cool math and simulations.  I watched suit-and-tie engineers programming the CDC 6400 to investigate learning curves in an effort to understand the cost of assembling airplanes.  They were so far above me...  Circa '70...

Later in my career, I spent less time engineering and more time managing.  I simply bought engineering.  We had a list of consultants and all I had to do was call and engineering just happened.  I worked on the big picture and left the details to those far more qualified.

[Jeff_Birt]

I work as an engineer at a university, I do not have a 'degree'. I took two years of industrial electronics in high school which was roughly equivalent to an associate degree. Without a degree the hardest thing is to get your foot in the door. I got a job once as I agreed to start at a lower salary and prove I could do the work and then be bumped up to the normal salary. I have a friend who taught high school band for 20 years while electronics was his hobby. When he got tired of teaching he got a job as a technician at Dale (which Vishay bought up later) and when they saw he knew his stuff they promoted him to engineer because he had 'a' degree, it did not matter to them what the degree was in. So being self taught in electronics and having a degree in education allowed him to be an engineer at Dale.

Students coming out of university (in the USA) with a bachelor's degree in engineering may be qualified and some are still dumb as a box of rocks. The 'dumb as a box of rocks' group are smart enough to pass each class but have no clue how to apply what they have learned. I'm in the EE department (but work as an ME/EE mix) and senior level students do a 'senior design' group project. Some of the projects can really highlight the student's abilities and with some students I have to explain why they can't drive a stepper motor with the logic level output form their microcontroller. In the general EE track this is the most 'hands on' experience they get. There are opportunities for undergraduate to do research projects, be on student design teams, internships, and similar things. If a student has the initiative to get involved with these types of activities they have a much greater chance of learning to apply the theory they are taught.

When I first started at the university I taught the lab sections of some classes. We would do a different project each semester that the professor and I dreamed up that was sometimes based on a current research project we were involved in (a simplified version). We tried to make the projects reasonable but we did not know the outcome, they were open ended as they might work or not. We acted as the customer saying "we want a product to do this", gave them some background info, provided technical assistance, etc. These were 300-400 level classes so the students were well seasoned but most had no idea how to approach a real world problem where there was not 'right' answer or an answer in the back of a book. I can remember vividly one student who was upset saying, "I have no idea how to do this". To which I replied, "welcome to being an engineer". After a couple of weeks of him doing some research on the subject and talking with us his attitude changed as he realized he could take what he knew and apply it to the problem and learn what he did not know. This is not an opportunity most students get, and that is sad.

Being close to 50 now and without a degree I can look back at how much easier it would have been in some cases if I had a degree. There are opportunities at a university to be involved in research projects and actually learn to apply your skills but the student has to seek them out. I wish they were somehow mandatory. I suspect most students who go through a bachelor's degree and have no real hand on ability wind up in middle management. Some companies, like UPS, prefer to hire drivers who have a degree in anything as they tend to be better employees. So go get a BS in something useless and you can drive for UPS.

You can be self taught but it is a tough row to hoe, i.e. it is hard to get your foot in the door. You need math skills, I had algebra and geometry in high school and some basic calculus in me EE course in VoTech. I learned what I needed as I went along but sometimes that is the long way around as you could have done something much simpler or quicker if you had known a bit more math. It is soooo easy these days to search things online that you can learn about different mathematic techniques that apply to your project.  If you are self taught you have to have examples of your accomplishments to demonstrate your knowledge. When I started at the university I had a list of accomplishments at previous jobs that demonstrated my abilities. And, to be honest at my age now I get offered jobs based on what I know and who I know. I have had side jobs doing programming, board layout, etc. based on demonstrable skills. My dad sold newspaper advertising for several years and on the back of his business card he had a cartoon of a fella with his feet up on his desk and the heading of "The fella who doesn't advertise may know his business but nobody else does!" Engineers tend to be introverts but you do have to 'advertise' yourself to prospective employers, if you don't have a degree you have to advertise accomplishments.

[rstofer]

Not to take away from electrical or electronics engineering but if you want a somewhat easier field of study for which there will be an increasing demand, consider Environmental, Health & Safety.  It's junk science but with all the regulations promulgated by every level of government, EVERY company needs the services of an EHS professional.

You do realize that, as a company, you can't just throw away burned out fluorescent lamps, right?  Nope!  You are a waste generator and you are responsible for those lamps from purchase through disposal.  There's paperwork, disposal companies to deal with, records to keep and so on.  I wouldn't recommend signing up for the clerk work but at the management level, these folks make good money with decent job security.

Just try to find a high tech company that doesn't have a large EHS department!

Consultants make a ton of bucks because they attend all the seminars and understand all the quirks in permitting.  You can't just poke a hole through the roof and exhaust a chem sink without an Air Quality Permit.  There are regulations!

I never thought much of their engineering capabilities but I did realize that EHS folks were totally necessary to staying out of jail.

[Zero999]

An engineering degree isn't necessary if you want to become a technician. Consider that engineer:technician = doctor:nurse. Both doctors and nurses support each othe and both are vital; vive la difference.

I wouldn't agree with that. There are plenty of people without engineering degrees who are doing exactly the same jobs as engineers who have degrees but are paid less.

I haven't come across them in my career. Or, alternatively, such people are doing work that doesn't require an engineering degree (most jobs in the world are like that, but they don't interest me!).

I have come across extremely competent engineers that didn't have a degree, but I can count them on the fingers of one hand.

Where I work, there doesn't seem to be any distinction between engineers and technicians. People need to be multi-skilled and have to do a range of jobs, including what some may consider to be the usual roles of technicians. For example, one day I could be repairing something, another I might be making cables, then later on I may be designing a schematic and PCB.

[tggzzz]

An engineering degree isn't necessary if you want to become a technician. Consider that engineer:technician = doctor:nurse. Both doctors and nurses support each othe and both are vital; vive la difference.

I wouldn't agree with that. There are plenty of people without engineering degrees who are doing exactly the same jobs as engineers who have degrees but are paid less.

I haven't come across them in my career. Or, alternatively, such people are doing work that doesn't require an engineering degree (most jobs in the world are like that, but they don't interest me!).

I have come across extremely competent engineers that didn't have a degree, but I can count them on the fingers of one hand.

Where I work, there doesn't seem to be any distinction between engineers and technicians. People need to be multi-skilled and have to do a range of jobs, including what some may consider to be the usual roles of technicians. For example, one day I could be repairing something, another I might be making cables, then later on I may be designing a schematic and PCB.

Perhaps there is little novel engineering to be done in your work?

In my experience, all your examples correspond to work that I would expect a competent technician to undertake. Having said that, a competent engineer would probably undertake schematic capture and should supervise the PCB layout.

OTOH, I wouldn't expect a technician to define modulation schemes, create new comms protocols, design filters, define the locking strategy in an RDBMS, work out how high availability and/or realtime guarantees will be met, predict system load and latencies, decide how many clock domains there will be and how control/data will cross their boundaries, define whether mean/median/95th percentile performance measures are most appropriate, define implementation languages, create simulation models for system performance studies.........

[arlipscomb]

Find a school with a program that interests you and dig into it for your personal edification. Go to school and be one of the people that is actually there to learn. When you get out look for jobs that allow you to grow, not just earn a paycheck. Lots of people try to target their education to get a "job". Try to figure out what will make you happy if you have to do it the rest of your life. And remember, making lots of money can contribute to happiness.

[dmills]

OTOH, I wouldn't expect a technician to define modulation schemes, create new comms protocols, design filters, define the locking strategy in an RDBMS, work out how high availability and/or realtime guarantees will be met, predict system load and latencies, decide how many clock domains there will be and how control/data will cross their boundaries, define whether mean/median/95th percentile performance measures are most appropriate, define implementation languages, create simulation models for system performance studies.........

Interesting, I am one of those non degree types (As in don't have one, not don't value them), and about the only one of these that I have never tackled professionally is the locking strategy for the RDBMS, but I have also done capture and layout (Not a technician job unless you spend ages defining the design rules, edge rates are just too high these days, never mind what happens in the microwave world), and even board level fixes when that was what was needed, in between wrangling design rules for a 10Gb serial link and calculating link budgets for offshore microwave links, yay for small companies. 

These days my card calls me Senior Hardware Engineer (I tried for Senior Wrangler, couldn't get the boss to sign off), still not quite sure how that happened.

The BS is probably the way in these days, but one piece of advice DONT follow the crowd, IoT may be cool this week, but knowing as much math as you can handle has a far better shelf life then some flavor of the month tech.
Electromagnetism/Control Theory/Statistics/Modulation/Coding theory none of that stuff is going away, and most people hate that shit, so if you can hack it, it pays well.

Regards, Dan.

[tggzzz]

OTOH, I wouldn't expect a technician to define modulation schemes, create new comms protocols, design filters, define the locking strategy in an RDBMS, work out how high availability and/or realtime guarantees will be met, predict system load and latencies, decide how many clock domains there will be and how control/data will cross their boundaries, define whether mean/median/95th percentile performance measures are most appropriate, define implementation languages, create simulation models for system performance studies.........

Interesting, I am one of those non degree types (As in don't have one, not don't value them),

Good for you (written without irony and without smileys!). As I've said elsewhere, I have come across extremely competent engineers without a degree, but I can count them on the fingers of one hand.

My objection is that often people on this forum state "degrees are a waste of time" when clearly they don't understand significant sections of theory that they should have learned in a degree course. Clearly you don't fit into that category.

and about the only one of these that I have never tackled professionally is the locking strategy for the RDBMS, but I have also done capture and layout (Not a technician job unless you spend ages defining the design rules, edge rates are just too high these days, never mind what happens in the microwave world),

Just so. That's the kind of thing I was thinking of when I wrote "...a competent engineer ... should supervise the PCB layout....". And I agree about microwave layout, of course!

These days my card calls me Senior Hardware Engineer (I tried for Senior Wrangler, couldn't get the boss to sign off), still not quite sure how that happened.

There's a good case for some types of software engineers having "Applied Philosopher" on their business card! Anybody who has had to try and define, say, what is meant by "a person" in a specific software system will understand what I mean!

The BS is probably the way in these days, but one piece of advice DONT follow the crowd, IoT may be cool this week, but knowing as much math as you can handle has a far better shelf life then some flavor of the month tech.
Electromagnetism/Control Theory/Statistics/Modulation/Coding theory none of that stuff is going away, and most people hate that shit, so if you can hack it, it pays well.

Agreed.

I've no strong opinion as to whether a second degree is necessary or beneficial nowadays, but I still believe it is invalid to do a PhD "to get a better job".