Elizabeth Holmes convicted of fraud

[MrMobodies]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59734254

Elizabeth Holmes: Theranos founder convicted of fraud
Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes has been convicted of defrauding investors after a months-long landmark trial in California.
05/01/22

Holmes remains on bail before sentencing at a later date.

Prosecutors said Holmes knowingly lied about technology she said could detect diseases with a few drops of blood. Jurors found Holmes guilty of conspiracy to commit fraud against investors and three charges of wire fraud.

She denied the charges, which carry a maximum prison term of 20 years each. Holmes was not taken into custody, with no date confirmed yet for sentencing and a further hearing scheduled next week. Journalists inside the courtroom said the 37-year-old, who gave birth to her first child last year, showed little emotion when the verdicts were read out, and hugged her husband, Billy Evans, and her parents before leaving the courtroom.

Holmes faced 11 charges in total and was found not guilty of four charges relating to defrauding the public. The split verdict came after the judge said the jury, having deliberated for seven days, could deliver a partial verdict after being unable to reach consensus on another three counts. The three wire fraud charges she was found guilty of are tied to specific investors in her failed company. Wire fraud is a relatively wide-ranging federal crime in the US, which involves using electronic communications, such as emails, to make false statements to get something from another person - usually money.

Theranos, at one point valued at $9bn (£6.5bn), was once the darling of biotech and Silicon Valley. Holmes was able to raise more than $900m from billionaires such as media magnate Rupert Murdoch and tech mogul Larry Ellison. The firm promised it would revolutionise the healthcare industry with a test that could detect conditions such as cancer and diabetes with only a few drops of blood. But these claims began to unravel in 2015 after a Wall Street Journal investigation reported that its core blood-testing technology did not work.

For nearly four months at trial, the jury of eight men and four women were presented with two starkly different accounts of the former self-made billionaire, whose downfall shook Silicon Valley. Calling some 30 witnesses, the prosecution sought to prove that Holmes knew the product she was selling to investors - a machine called the Edison - was a sham, but remained hell-bent on the firm's success.

Her company secretly relied on commercially available machines to run the tests, prosecutors said. At trial, multiple lab directors testified to telling Holmes about the flaws in Theranos' technology but being instructed to downplay their concerns. At the same time, they added , Holmes told investors the technology was operating as planned. Holmes "chose fraud over business failure. She chose to be dishonest with investors and patients", said prosecutor Jeff Schenk in closing arguments. "That choice was not only callous, it was criminal." The defence countered with descriptions of a dedicated and driven businesswoman, making waves in a male-dominated industry.

Testifying in her own defence, Holmes acknowledged mistakes in Theranos' operation, but maintained she never knowingly defrauded patients or investors. The defence also laid blame on Ramesh "Sunny" Balwani, her former business partner and ex-boyfriend. At trial Holmes accused Mr Balwani, 19 years her senior, of emotional and sexual abuse - allegations he denies.

So she is now claiming that it was Ramesh who knowingly defrauded the patients and investors despite being told by her own staff

The defence countered with descriptions of a dedicated and driven businesswoman, making waves in a male-dominated industry.

I wonder what has that got to do with anything in the sentencing? Are they saying that it makes it right for it she did or trying to make the jury feel sorry for her?

[Ed.Kloonk]

I don't think many people realize that subterfuge has always been this little one's way and always will be.

[eti]

Yet again, as others have delighted in making VERY clear to me, in the past, this is a *technical* chat sub-forum; am I missing something here, as this seems to be about as off-topic as one could hope for.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Yet again, as others have delighted in making VERY clear to me, in the past, this is a *technical* chat sub-forum; am I missing something here, as this seems to be about as off-topic as one could hope for.

I resisted commenting in your previous tantrum. I think the problem has to do with quantity of off-topic material from one poster versus a bit of side channel here and there.

Many of us have gotten pinged for it. Deal with it. Select more material the group will enjoy.

[wilfred]

Yet again, as others have delighted in making VERY clear to me, in the past, this is a *technical* chat sub-forum; am I missing something here, as this seems to be about as off-topic as one could hope for.

Some threads will inevitably develop into a private bun-fight between two members, regardless of whether it is on-topic or not. Some were started with that specific intent. Topics that engage forum members interest and friendly participation were never a problem. I wouldn't worry to much about whether a thread is on topic if members enjoy participating. I would say most members can tell which threads are which.

[MrMobodies]

I am sorry, do you want me to remove this thread?

I thought it might of been interesting considering there was equipment involved, the blood testing machines that didn't actually work properly where tests were faked and a follow up news about sentencing the individuals.

[Ed.Kloonk]

I am sorry, do you want me to remove this thread?

I thought it might of been interesting considering there was equipment involved, the blood testing machines that didn't actually work properly where tests were faked and a follow up news about sentencing the individuals.

There is already a EH thread floating around here that been following the horse foolery.

I thought it was that thread or that the title had been changed to represent the case development.

[magic]

do you want me to remove this thread?

No, he wants the mods to stop removing his threads

As Ed says, Theranos was a fairly regular topic here and nobody complained.

[wilfred]

I am sorry, do you want me to remove this thread?

Not at all. This is a topic I find interesting. @Magic hit the nail on the head.

[Simon]

I was surprised to hear her name finally mentioned in the media. I mean how long has this been going on with people making serious claims about her and her business?

What I find more relevant and worrying is not the financial aspect which is all the BBC can talk of (oh poor Rupert Murdok and the idiotic politicians that had fools made of them) but the fact that this sort of thing just lays the ground for yet more conspiracy theories and people doubting serious science whilst falling for fake stuff because they do not know any better and Theranos should never have existed. My understanding is that it was just a total lie from start to finish, that basically it was as good as claiming that an empty box was doing serious stuff.

[rstofer]

I haven't followed the media circus and the charges they throw around.  I suspect the reality is a good deal different.  She wanted the project to come to fruition before running out of money and got a wee bit too creative.  Such is the way in the tech world - it's all vaporware until it isn't.  Creating magic isn't cheap!

What if it had all worked out?  Would we have a national EH paid holiday?

[EEVblog]

Yet again, as others have delighted in making VERY clear to me, in the past, this is a *technical* chat sub-forum; am I missing something here, as this seems to be about as off-topic as one could hope for.

I resisted commenting in your previous tantrum. I think the problem has to do with quantity of off-topic material from one poster versus a bit of side channel here and there.

This.

And this case has actually been discussed on here before:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/where-did-all-the-theranos-money-go-and-did-they-actually-do-work/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/elizabeth-holmes-to-seek-mental-diseaseinsanity/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/theranos-elizabeth-holmes-sold-compilers-to-china/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/theranos-founder-elizabeth-holmes-charged-with-$700m-fraud/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/elizabeth-holmes-of-theranos-banned-from-owningoperating-medical-laboratory/

[Ed.Kloonk]

Yet again, as others have delighted in making VERY clear to me, in the past, this is a *technical* chat sub-forum; am I missing something here, as this seems to be about as off-topic as one could hope for.

I resisted commenting in your previous tantrum. I think the problem has to do with quantity of off-topic material from one poster versus a bit of side channel here and there.

This.

And this case has actually been discussed on here before:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/where-did-all-the-theranos-money-go-and-did-they-actually-do-work/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/elizabeth-holmes-to-seek-mental-diseaseinsanity/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/theranos-elizabeth-holmes-sold-compilers-to-china/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/theranos-founder-elizabeth-holmes-charged-with-$700m-fraud/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/elizabeth-holmes-of-theranos-banned-from-owningoperating-medical-laboratory/

Ha. And yet you've got some in the group that indeed want the subtopics separated and pigeon holed into sub fora.

Hmm.

[MrMobodies]

Yet again, as others have delighted in making VERY clear to me, in the past, this is a *technical* chat sub-forum; am I missing something here, as this seems to be about as off-topic as one could hope for.

I resisted commenting in your previous tantrum. I think the problem has to do with quantity of off-topic material from one poster versus a bit of side channel here and there.

This.

And this case has actually been discussed on here before:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/where-did-all-the-theranos-money-go-and-did-they-actually-do-work/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/elizabeth-holmes-to-seek-mental-diseaseinsanity/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/theranos-elizabeth-holmes-sold-compilers-to-china/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/theranos-founder-elizabeth-holmes-charged-with-$700m-fraud/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/elizabeth-holmes-of-theranos-banned-from-owningoperating-medical-laboratory/

I thought it was that thread or that the title had been changed to represent the case development.

I see, I just remembered that with the "subject" line that can be changed per post and just an idea maybe, can all the Theranos threads could be merged together from the oldest in one thread under a more common name to something like "Theranos/Elizabeth Homes FAQ" to represent them all with their individual subject lines?

This one sounds good but the thread is newer than the some of the others: "where did all the theranos money go and did they actually do work" - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/theranos-founder-elizabeth-holmes-charged-with-$700m-fraud/

[Ed.Kloonk]

just an idea maybe, can all the Theranos threads could be merged together from the oldest in one thread under a more common name to something like "Theranos/Elizabeth Homes FAQ" to represent them all with their individual subject lines?

It sure can be done but I'm not brave enough to ask them to do it.

 

I'm grateful the topic gets a run. Some places, it is verboten.

The update subject feature used to be so the OP could add [solved] to a question. I don't know if I like the idea of the topic subject dancing around too much.

[Simon]

I don't know if it's a good idea to merge threads, if they are old and have not had responses in a while, let the die. If threads with postings on the same days are merged it may become more confusing with posts replying to the wrong post if there was not a quote and it may not be obvious to the reader what happened.

[daqq]

Yet again, as others have delighted in making VERY clear to me, in the past, this is a *technical* chat sub-forum; am I missing something here, as this seems to be about as off-topic as one could hope for.

Aside from this being covered previously, this does actually have to do with tech in a significant way, as it may set a precedent when dealing with scammy kickstarters, audiophile nonsense, existing BS tech, hopefully 'miracle healing machines'* and a host of other tech that is often discussed on this part of the forum: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/ .

* - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/woo-equipment-repair-ethics/

[DrG]

Yet again, as others have delighted in making VERY clear to me, in the past, this is a *technical* chat sub-forum; am I missing something here, as this seems to be about as off-topic as one could hope for.

Aside from this being covered previously, this does actually have to do with tech in a significant way, as it may set a precedent when dealing with scammy kickstarters, audiophile nonsense, existing BS tech, hopefully 'miracle healing machines'* and a host of other tech that is often discussed on this part of the forum: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/ .

* - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/woo-equipment-repair-ethics/

Oh how I wish for that, but I fear it is only the amounts of money lost and the status/influence of those that lost it, that brought this case through the system.

[Simon]

Yes, it is only the sheer scale of this that brought it to anyone's attention.

[Kasper]

Yet again, as others have delighted in making VERY clear to me, in the past, this is a *technical* chat sub-forum; am I missing something here, as this seems to be about as off-topic as one could hope for.

I don't think anyone delights in dealing with your plethora of off-topic rants.  If you want tolerance for your off-topic rants, you should show tolerance to others. 

This topic is very relevant to me since I work for tech startups.  One of the most challenging parts of my job is the constant requests for timelines and specs and the conversations that follow.  I am asked to give best case scenario: I race to put untested circuits in a design while breaking manufacturers recommendations because our industrial design prioritized looks over providing usable space, it all works, people stop requesting changes and I all of a sudden stop getting a bunch of random nonsensical tasks added to the top of my to do list.  I don't mind giving best case scenario as a way to explain how much time is wasted by things I consider low priority but I do mind when my best case scenario gets pushed forward.

I haven't seen any outright lies like Holmes seems to have made but there is a lot of optimism.

[Bud]

Holmes's conviction is just a half of the story. Her boyfriend's trial begins next month. Will be intetesting to watch.

[Gregg]

The only person close to Elizabeth Holmes that I can have any empathy towards is her newborn son who is just another part of her scheming business plan. 

[duckduck]

Theranos sold/leased/whatevered their black boxes to Walgreens (pharmacy/chemists chain in the USA) who put them in ~40 locations. There were real patients with real health problems that made real decisions based on the results from the Theranos boxes. Of course, I don't think it took Walgreens too long to figure out that the Theranos boxes were shit and ripped them all out, but still. What kind of a sociopath/psychopath would sell health solutions that they knew did not work? Makes me sick.

It's frustrating that she was convicted for swindling wealthy investors, not for causing chaos and panic for patients.

[Bud]

Patients were not allowed to testify because their testimony "would be based on emotions", something to that extent.

[SiliconWizard]

And maybe some memory would be good? Because you'd wonder how they could even "touch" patients outside of very strict clinical studies...

https://www.businessinsider.com/theranos-gets-fda-approval-2015-7?r=US&IR=T

... 
No comment.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Theranos sold/leased/whatevered their black boxes to Walgreens (pharmacy/chemists chain in the USA) who put them in ~40 locations. There were real patients with real health problems that made real decisions based on the results from the Theranos boxes. Of course, I don't think it took Walgreens too long to figure out that the Theranos boxes were shit and ripped them all out, but still. What kind of a sociopath/psychopath would sell health solutions that they knew did not work? Makes me sick.

It's frustrating that she was convicted for swindling wealthy investors, not for causing chaos and panic for patients.

This.

Thank you, Duck.

[MrMobodies]

Patients were not allowed to testify because their testimony "would be based on emotions", something to that extent.

Interesting, that reminds of something I read early last year and check out her emotions:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/02/inside-elizabeth-holmess-final-months-at-theranos

“SHE NEVER LOOKS BACK”: INSIDE ELIZABETH HOLMES’S CHILLING FINAL MONTHS AT THERANOS
BY NICK BILTON
FEBRUARY 20, 2019

Holmes’s travel, security details, and publicists were all paid for by Theranos. Meals, clothing, and other social activities were almost always expensed. As one of the former employees said to me, “Someone had to be paying for all those Birkin bags.” This employee said that Holmes’s expenses were somewhat of a joke at the company. “The company paid for everything,” they said. “She would submit her miles if she drove the six miles to her house in Los Altos.”

The employee said that the only time Holmes evidenced defeat during Theranos’s collapse was when the company cut her off financially, after the criminal charges were filed. “She lost her cool. She had a fit,” they said. “She had to give up the house in Los Altos.”

Emotional, she had a fit when she had had to give up things and no money to spend that the company was paying for.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/29/technology/elizabeth-holmes-sunny-balwani.html

Elizabeth Holmes Says Former Boyfriend Abused Her
By Erin Woo and Erin Griffith
Nov. 29, 2021

Ramesh Balwani, her former boyfriend and business partner, emotionally and physically abused her, Ms. Holmes testified in court on Monday.

Now isn't that testimonial emotional?

[Ed.Kloonk]

Evidence in court is often a one way street, unfortunately.

[magic]

And maybe some memory would be good? Because you'd wonder how they could even "touch" patients outside of very strict clinical studies...

https://www.businessinsider.com/theranos-gets-fda-approval-2015-7?r=US&IR=T

... 
No comment.

In related news, FDA approves treatments based on a mountain of documentation which would take them 50 years to process and release to the public

[SiliconWizard]

And maybe some memory would be good? Because you'd wonder how they could even "touch" patients outside of very strict clinical studies...

https://www.businessinsider.com/theranos-gets-fda-approval-2015-7?r=US&IR=T

... 
No comment.

In related news, FDA approves treatments based on a mountain of documentation which would take them 50 years to process and release to the public

Is that supposed to mean that the FDA serves no purpose except having people think it protects them?
And that if things go sour, they will almost never be liable, even if they approved?
I can't believe that is true. =)

[MrMobodies]

Just found this article and a widow seems to think that Elizabeth might be going back to her Holmes under house arrest instead of doing actual time in prison.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10381451/She-lives-100million-estate-punishment-Widow-biochemist.html

'How is that punishment?' Fury of British Theranos whistleblower's widow as fallen Silicon Valley tycoon faces a lenient jail term...
PUBLISHED: 11:38, 8 January 2022 | UPDATED: 12:05, 8 January 2022

The widow of a biochemist who was driven to suicide when he feared Elizabeth Holmes was going to fire him has said she is worried the Silicon Valley villain could be spared jail.

Rochelle Gibbons said she was concerned Holmes, 37, could be allowed to serve her jail term under house arrest following her conviction on four fraud charges on Monday.

'She lives in a £100million estate. How is that punishment?', Mrs Gibbons told The Times. 'I'm hoping that she gets ten years [in prison] or more than that.'

Dr Ian Gibbons, a Cambridge-educated British biochemist who became Theranos chief scientist in 2005, took a fatal overdose in 2013 after becoming convinced that Holmes would sack him because he challenged her grandiose claims about her blood-testing machine.

Since March, Holmes and her husband Evans had been living quietly on the 75-acre Green Gables Estate in Silicon Valley, presumably renting one of the six smaller properties dotted around the vast grounds.

Sounds to me like she is wealthy again.

Former co-workers describe him as a 'wealth of knowledge'

Joke: Now how would you describe Elizabeth Homes? A wealth of lies and deception?

[m3vuv]

people are making a song and dance about this when we are being pressured to receive untested /proven covid vacines,seems like one rule for one and another for another,suppose it depends on what politicians heads gonna roll when it goes tits up,?


Moderators aware, see Dave's note in the second post on from this one.

[TimFox]

How much testing do you require?

[EEVblog]

NOTE: Another mention of vaccines/covid and I start deleteing posts.

[rsjsouza]

Just found this article and a widow seems to think that Elizabeth might be going back to her Holmes under house arrest instead of doing actual time in prison.

(...)

'She lives in a £100million estate. How is that punishment?', Mrs Gibbons told The Times. 'I'm hoping that she gets ten years [in prison] or more than that.'

(...)

Since March, Holmes and her husband Evans had been living quietly on the 75-acre Green Gables Estate in Silicon Valley, presumably renting one of the six smaller properties dotted around the vast grounds.

Sounds to me like she is wealthy again.

What I don't really understand is how a man with considerable wealth is allured to be involved with a person with such background still heavily entangled in such mess. That might allude to her supposed talent of being quite a manipulative person. 

[tszaboo]

What kind of a sociopath/psychopath would sell health solutions that they knew did not work? Makes me sick.

I see you never had to deal with people with this sort of mental disorder before.
There are people like this, who will do anything for money. The idea, that "I'l lnot commit a crime, because if I'm getting caught and have to spend time in prison" is a usually a good demotivator for these, but not always. We see from history time and time again, what happens when someone with an absolutely moral compass gets too much power.
And it is not that uncommon, AFAIK, 3% of the general population has traits from the dark triad. Most of these people would kill another person, if they are not punished some way. Others just see the entire world in a way: "How can I benefit from this".
I really think we should test and filter for these as a society. And the fact, that the "mental health issue defense" actually exists, blows my mind. Like, you should lock her up especially, because she is suffering from an incurable mental health issue, and she is dangerous, and needs the lesson (like a 4 year old) that if you do bad, bad things happen to you. The only way to deal with them is like a 4 year old, because in a way they are stuck at that mental level.

The only person close to Elizabeth Holmes that I can have any empathy towards is her newborn son who is just another part of her scheming business plan. 

The best thing that can happen to that child is to get him as far as possible from her.

Seriously, read up on the science behind it, and be prepared, because it's just a question of time when you meet with people with these mental health issues. And you need to be prepared to it, and be able to recognize it, otherwise they can ruin your life, or worse.

[nctnico]

What kind of a sociopath/psychopath would sell health solutions that they knew did not work? Makes me sick.

The world is full of such people. My working theory is that big companies have the moral capabilities of a 5 year old kid. Not necessarily because the people are bad but because they can get away with it by blaming the collective.

'The yes men fix the world':

[SiliconWizard]

What kind of a sociopath/psychopath would sell health solutions that they knew did not work? Makes me sick.

The world is full of such people. My working theory is that big companies have the moral capabilities of a 5 year old kid. Not necessarily because the people are bad but because they can get away with it by blaming the collective.

I absolutely agree with this point. Doing something "bad" without questioning it, just because you know you can get away with it, is still morally wrong, and is inexcusable for an adult. But I agree, this is the main reason why it happens.

That's linked to the point I'm repeatedly making in the thread about machine learning, btw. The ability to "get away with it" (lack of liability) is the root problem. You can't avoid some people being morally deficient - that's just part of life. But letting them play freely, just like with kids, is the problem.

[magic]

1. be a 19 year old ignorant
2. come up with a great idea
3. get numerous "open minded" idiots to believe you
4. promise the impossible
5. too embarrassed to admit mistake
6. do damage control
7. maybe things will work out...

I don't hate the chick. She is what America had made her and they reap what they sow.

[nctnico]

What kind of a sociopath/psychopath would sell health solutions that they knew did not work? Makes me sick.

The world is full of such people. My working theory is that big companies have the moral capabilities of a 5 year old kid. Not necessarily because the people are bad but because they can get away with it by blaming the collective.

I absolutely agree with this point. Doing something "bad" without questioning it, just because you know you can get away with it, is still morally wrong, and is inexcusable for an adult. But I agree, this is the main reason why it happens.

That's linked to the point I'm repeatedly making in the thread about machine learning, btw. The ability to "get away with it" (lack of liability) is the root problem. You can't avoid some people being morally deficient - that's just part of life. But letting them play freely, just like with kids, is the problem.

This is also why I'm very pro government regulation. Recently I watched a movie called 'Dark waters' (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9071322/ ) it is about how Dupont has gotten away with severely polluting the environment with toxic waste for decades. One of the key problems is that companies had to notify the US government about substances the companies found to be harmfull to the environment. So if a substance wasn't reported, nobody would check it FFS 

But the US isn't the only country with such poorly functioning regulatory bodies. In the NL there used to be a bank that started out as a lender of consumer credit and ended up becoming a bank. Their solution for people who couldn't pay was to borrow them more money and then chase them for the money again if they couldn't pay the loan back (again). Some victims ended up with mortgages 4 times of what their house is worth and approx.10 to 15 times of their annual income (the 'healthy' norm is 4 times). Some people even killed themselves from pure missery. Meanwhile the guy owning the bank was playing nice weather. If you hear him speak there is no other conclusion that he was 100% convinced that his financial products where good for his customers and he was their financial saviour! Pure psychopathic behaviour. Ofcourse this went wrong during the credit-crunch. As a result the director of the central bank of the NL got -sort of- fired for this mishap. It turned out that the company in question didn't met the criteria to be a bank (not even close!) and only a total idiot would have granted the banking license. Nowadays the former director of the central bank works for the bank of China. I feel sorry for the Chinese...

[floobydust]

The trial did reveal a large part of her and Theranos business behaviour is commonplace in Silicon Valley. Any hype to get investment dollars, fake it 'til you make it, embellish/lie about your accomplishments, party party party, investors are stupid when it comes to tech anyhow. This is the new norm and engineers get the rough ride.
Nikola with their fake electric truck is another classic example and they are only at $4.2B market cap and prototype stage.

Theranos did "erase" the customer database which contained all the names of people "tested" when the servers were decommissioned. One old copy made it to the prosecutors but the encryption key was not known. So proving who had their life upended by false test results for miscarriage, herpes, HIV, blood thickness, hormones etc. - was not possible for the prosecution. She and her people covered their tracks well.

I think Holmes did cross the line into criminality, her armada of lawyers can generate every excuse to let her get away with it and enjoy her cache of money.
Jail does not cure psychopathy, these people are extremely destructive and go to leadership positions. They have no guilt/remorse/conscience microchip in their head.
Boeing's Denis Muilenburg another example yet killed hundreds, ruined the company and slithered out, no problem.

Jury Verdict: "The jury convicted Holmes of the investor wire fraud conspiracy count and three substantive wire fraud counts relating to the scheme to defraud investors, including wire transfers totaling more than $140 million.  The jury acquitted Holmes of the patient-related conspiracy wire fraud count and three additional wire fraud counts.  One count of wire fraud relating to a Theranos patient was dismissed during the trial.  The jury could not reach a unanimous verdict with respect to three investor fraud-related counts."
"Holmes faces a maximum sentence of twenty (20) years in prison, and a fine of $250,000, plus restitution, for the conspiracy count and each count of wire fraud.  However, any sentence following conviction would be imposed by the court after consideration of the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines and the federal statute governing the imposition of a sentence, 18 U.S.C. § 3553"

[MrMobodies]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-12/elizabeth-holmes-sentencing-for-theranos-fraud-set-for-sept-12

Elizabeth Holmes Sentencing for Theranos Fraud Set for Sept. 12
By Joel Rosenblatt +Follow
12 January 2022, 02:19 GMT

Elizabeth Holmes is scheduled to be sentenced Sept. 12 following her conviction for defrauding investors who poured hundreds of millions of dollars into Theranos Inc.

Until then, Holmes will remain free on a $500,000 bond secured by property, according to a court filing Tuesday.

September 12th? 8 months from now which sounds to me a bit long for the sentencing.

Secured by property... I guess that must be the families land.

What I don't really understand is how a man with considerable wealth is allured to be involved with a person with such background still heavily entangled in such mess. That might allude to her supposed talent of being quite a manipulative person. 

She seems very good at what she does to fit in and get her own way.

[cdev]

WHY SO LONG?

Hopefully her conviction and hopefully some actual imprisonment in a non-country-club jail, (California has luxury jails for people with lots of money, (convicted by the state, not the Federal government) but they have to pay a lot to do their time in them)

will improve the honesty of CEOs trying to gain investors.  It wasn't always so much hype like it is now. This seems quite cyclic to me.

The late 1990s was anothger period where the hype level was just nuts, as far as anything Internet. However these newcomers mostly were not technical people, it seems they largely were multimedia people. They made a lot of stuff up. Holmes seems to come out of that kind of business world.

[cdev]

No real scientist would ever erase important medical data like that! Not if they were genuinely trying to make a quality product. Instead of *cough* a "quality scam", or con.

Theranos did "erase" the customer database which contained all the names of people "tested" when the servers were decommissioned. One old copy made it to the prosecutors but the encryption key was not known. So proving who had their life upended by false test results for miscarriage, herpes, HIV, blood thickness, hormones etc. - was not possible for the prosecution. She and her people covered their tracks well.

Business and science don't seem to mix that well too much of the time.

[SiliconWizard]

What kind of a sociopath/psychopath would sell health solutions that they knew did not work? Makes me sick.

The world is full of such people. My working theory is that big companies have the moral capabilities of a 5 year old kid. Not necessarily because the people are bad but because they can get away with it by blaming the collective.

I absolutely agree with this point. Doing something "bad" without questioning it, just because you know you can get away with it, is still morally wrong, and is inexcusable for an adult. But I agree, this is the main reason why it happens.

That's linked to the point I'm repeatedly making in the thread about machine learning, btw. The ability to "get away with it" (lack of liability) is the root problem. You can't avoid some people being morally deficient - that's just part of life. But letting them play freely, just like with kids, is the problem.

This is also why I'm very pro government regulation.

Uh yeah? But this is kind of contradictory with the statement below:

But the US isn't the only country with such poorly functioning regulatory bodies. (...)

Of course not. It's commonplace indeed.
So, given that situation, how would "government regulation" help? Those "regulatory bodies" are already a form of government regulation. What exactly makes you think that things could go better if even more politics than today was involved? Just allow me to be unconvinced.

[rsjsouza]

Indeed. The issue is not more regulation, but a way to figure out how to unclog the pipes of the government cabinets from the rats and pollution that currently occupies them. ATM the vast majority of the governments work for the rich and wealthy, not for the common man.

[Ed.Kloonk]

WHY SO LONG?

The appeals process.

[Bud]

And this time will then be deducted from the jail term.

[Halcyon]

people are making a song and dance about this when we are being pressured to receive untested /proven covid vacines,seems like one rule for one and another for another,suppose it depends on what politicians heads gonna roll when it goes tits up,?

There is no such thing as an "untested" or "unproven" vaccine that has been rolled out to the general population. All of the major brands have undergone the same rigorous testing as any other vaccine for other illnesses. If you think otherwise, you need a reality check. I find it quite insulting that normal, everyday people seem to think they know more than the experts. Facts are facts, whether or not you agree with them.

As Dave said, any more nonsense posts like this and they are getting deleted and this thread locked.

[rsjsouza]

There is no such thing as an "untested" or "unproven" vaccine that has been rolled out to the general population. All of the major brands have undergone the same rigorous testing as any other vaccine for other illnesses. If you think otherwise, you need a reality check. I find it quite insulting that normal, everyday people seem to think they know more than the experts. Facts are facts, whether or not you agree with them.

As Dave said, any more nonsense posts like this and they are getting deleted and this thread locked.

Halcyon, this was three days ago and fully dropped after Dave said what he said. Why would you bring that up again just to pontificate your opinion? Per consistency of the rules, your post is the one that should be deleted.

[Ed.Kloonk]

And this time will then be deducted from the jail term.

We recently had an ex-pollie finally get sentenced for some corruption/conpirisy offences committed well over 10 years ago.

Because I was bored and under-utilized, I tuned into the hearing. The Justice and the prosecutor spent nearly two hours going back and forth on the duration of imprisonment because the legislation for the offence is as vague as shit.

Neither one wanted to stick their neck out and suggest a sentence because the justice has to follow the law, vague as it is without pulling a harsh sentence out of thin air, and the prosecution has to recommend to the judge what the law says, not just what they would wish for.

Two hours. Half a dozen 5 min adjournments. They decided on 7 years. With an appeal due to be heard in Sept.

[Halcyon]

There is no such thing as an "untested" or "unproven" vaccine that has been rolled out to the general population. All of the major brands have undergone the same rigorous testing as any other vaccine for other illnesses. If you think otherwise, you need a reality check. I find it quite insulting that normal, everyday people seem to think they know more than the experts. Facts are facts, whether or not you agree with them.

As Dave said, any more nonsense posts like this and they are getting deleted and this thread locked.

Halcyon, this was three days ago and fully dropped after Dave said what he said. Why would you bring that up again just to pontificate your opinion? Per consistency of the rules, your post is the one that should be deleted.

Because it was reported to moderators today. Also, I wasn't providing an opinion.

[SilverSolder]

And this time will then be deducted from the jail term.

We recently had an ex-pollie finally get sentenced for some corruption/conpirisy offences committed well over 10 years ago.

Because I was bored and under-utilized, I tuned into the hearing. The Justice and the prosecutor spent nearly two hours going back and forth on the duration of imprisonment because the legislation for the offence is as vague as shit.

Neither one wanted to stick their neck out and suggest a sentence because the justice has to follow the law, vague as it is without pulling a harsh sentence out of thin air, and the prosecution has to recommend to the judge what the law says, not just what they would wish for.

Two hours. Half a dozen 5 min adjournments. They decided on 7 years. With an appeal due to be heard in Sept.

7 years is a pretty amazing sentence for a Western politician, lol...

[oPossum]

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-jury-convicts-theranos-sunny-balwani-fraud-2022-07-07/

A U.S. jury on Thursday convicted former Theranos Inc President Ramesh "Sunny" Balwani of defrauding investors and patients about the blood testing startup that was once valued at $9 billion.

Balwani was convicted on two counts of conspiracy and 10 counts of fraud, a spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office confirmed.

[MrMobodies]

Around 20 Years in jail.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61902378

Both Holmes, 38, and Balwani, 57, will be sentenced by a judge in the autumn. Holmes is facing *around 20 years in prison and is currently free on bail. Balwani also faces *up to 20 years in prison as well as millions of dollars in restitution payments to his victims.

*I wonder what the "Up to" and "around 20 years" will amount to?

Does that mean they could just be jailed for 20 years each but could be let out at any time inbetween the sentences?

[nctnico]

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-jury-convicts-theranos-sunny-balwani-fraud-2022-07-07/

A U.S. jury on Thursday convicted former Theranos Inc President Ramesh "Sunny" Balwani of defrauding investors and patients about the blood testing startup that was once valued at $9 billion.

Balwani was convicted on two counts of conspiracy and 10 counts of fraud, a spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office confirmed.

Interestingly he got convicted for more 'criminal acts' than Ms Holmes

[Simon]

In the UK you can get banned from being a director for up to 15 years. For cases like this it should be a life ban.

[SiliconWizard]

I wish more CEOs would get banned as well.

[Bud]

Do not kid youself, noone of them will serve 20 years.

[Peter Taylor]

I believe that I should offer my skills and services for the betterment of society.

Its Ok to have $$$. Its not OK to have it at the expense of others.

[floobydust]

These criminals are master manipulators, made of teflon. I can't see a decent amount of jail time for her as Balwani is the fall guy for the whole thing.

[SiliconWizard]

Who manipulated investors more massively? Her alone or those above journals?

[ebastler]

Love it how the "Inc." title pictures her next to the headline "How to build a company to last 100 years". 

[magic]

Tells you a thing or two about the quality of so-called "journalism"

21st century America is all hype and no substance anymore.

[rsjsouza]

Tells you a thing or two about the quality of so-called "journalism"

21st century America is all hype and no substance anymore.

Fortunately such journalism is losing ground daily, especially with the BS of the past two years. Still has power and will take time, but it is coming down.

About the sentencing, it is statistically coherent that the guy has the bigger fall.

[Gregg]

Do not kid youself, noone of them will serve 20 years.

Bernard Ebbers of Worldcom Worldcon fame and misfortune was sentenced to 25 years but was let out a month or so before he croaked saving the tax payers from burying him after serving about 17 of those years.
I guess the point is that he didn't have a chance for more fraud after he was released. 

[MrMobodies]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/elizabeth-holmes-dealt-blow-judge-183435671.html?guccounter=1
Business Insider

Elizabeth Holmes is dealt a blow as the judge in her fraud case tentatively denied her request to throw out her conviction
Sarah Jackson Fri, 2 September 2022, 7:34 pm·2-min read

Elizabeth Holmes just faced a setback in her attempt to have her guilty verdict thrown out.

On Thursday, the judge in the Theranos founder's fraud case tentatively denied her request to overturn her conviction.

This means she's one step closer to facing prison time at her October sentencing. Elizabeth Holmes is a step closer to getting time in prison for her fraud at Theranos after her Hail Mary attempt to have her conviction thrown out was denied. In May, Holmes had asked the federal judge in her case, Edward Davila, to overturn her guilty verdict on counts of wire fraud and conspiracy. She argued that there was "insufficient evidence" for any "rational juror" to convict. On Thursday, Holmes appeared in court again as Davila heard from attorneys on the prosecution and defense regarding the matter.

In January, Holmes was found guilty on three counts of wire fraud and one count of conspiracy to commit wire fraud, following a months-long trial that gripped Silicon Valley. One of Holmes' attorneys, Amy Saharia, argued, "We don't believe the evidence shows Ms. Holmes made misrepresentations or half-truths," as Bloomberg reported. Holmes' team also said there wasn't enough evidence to show that Holmes intended to defraud patients and investors or that she conspired to do so with her ex-boyfriend and Theranos' former president and COO, Ramesh "Sunny" Balwani.

Davila disagreed, upholding Holmes' conviction in a preliminary ruling. "The court finds that looking at this through the lens most favorable to the prosecution," the evidence "does support the jury's findings in this case," he said, per Bloomberg. A request to toss out a conviction is common from defendants in white-collar cases, like Holmes. They're also usually denied. In July, following a separate trial, Balwani was convicted on all 12 charges against him, including 10 counts of wire fraud and two counts of conspiracy to commit wire fraud. Holmes' sentencing is scheduled for October 17, and Balwani's is set for November 15. Each could face up to 20 years in prison for each count on which they were convicted.

Read the original article on Business Insider
[url]https://www.businessinsider.com/elizabeth-holmes-theranos-judge-denies-her-request-to-toss-conviction-2022-9[/url]

How much more evidence do they need?

So what she calls "insufficient" must mean that the jurors who convicted here are crazy.

How would she know there is insufficient evidence in the first place?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/24/elizabeth-holmes-denies-destroying-evidence-in-theranos-case.html

Elizabeth Holmes denies destroying evidence in Theranos case
PUBLISHED TUE, FEB 23 2021 11:30 PM ESTUPDATED WED, FEB 24 20216:51 AM EST
Yasmin Khorram

However, prosecutors allege that Theranos executives destroyed the LIS system that proved her blood-testing product was inaccurate.

In a filing last month, the government said that three months after a federal grand jury issued a subpoena for a copy of the database in August 2018, “the LIS was destroyed.” They wrote that “the government has never been provided with the complete records contained in the LIS, nor been given the tools, which were available within the database, to search for such critical evidence as all Theranos blood tests with validation errors. The data disappeared”

https://www.fiercebiotech.com/medtech/first-witnesses-elizabeth-holmes-fraud-trial-say-theranos-manipulated-lab-data-inflated

MEDTECH
First witnesses in Elizabeth Holmes' fraud trial say Theranos manipulated lab data, inflated revenue projections
By Andrea ParkSep 16, 2021 01:12pm

The first two witnesses took the stand this week in former Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes’ federal fraud trial, both former employees of the disgraced blood-testing startup who mapped out the corners they say were regularly cut in the lab, the boardroom and beyond.Witness testimony begins after the prosecution and defense traded opening statements last week. To start, the prosecution described Holmes as a bloodthirsty leader (pun very much intended) who knowingly lied to investors, partners and patients about the capabilities of Theranos’ benchtop blood-testing machine, all in pursuit of fame and fortune. Holmes’ defense, meanwhile, sketched out their plans to paint her as a young, first-time CEO who, though relentlessly optimistic about her vision, was ill-equipped to deal with the many roadblocks that cropped up throughout Theranos’ life span. They’ve also suggested that her decision-making abilities were further stunted by the allegedly manipulative and controlling behavior of Holmes’ ex-boyfriend and former Theranos Chief Operating Officer Ramesh “Sunny” Balwani, who has issued a blanket denial of those claims.

At stake in the trial are 10 counts of wire fraud and two counts of conspiracy to commit wire fraud, each of which carries a fine of at least $250,000. Holmes faces a maximum possible sentence of 20 years in prison, as will Balwani when his trial begins for the same 12 counts next year, once Holmes’ is complete. First to take the stand: Danise Yam, who served as Theranos’ financial controller for over a decade. Though she was initially sworn in last Wednesday in the short time left in that day’s allotted time after opening statements, the bulk of her testimony came when the trial resumed Sept. 14. In it, Yam testified that Theranos took in no annual revenue at all in 2012 or 2013, according to Forbes, and that she had projected revenues that maxed out at $132 million in 2016. That’s in stark contrast to materials given to investors estimating that the company would draw $140 million in revenue in 2014, for example, and a whopping $900 million the following year—numbers that Yam said she hadn’t come up with.

She also detailed total losses of $585 million between 2003 and 2015, noting that even as money became increasingly tight, Theranos continued to burn through millions per week and, in 2015, saw Holmes’ salary double to $400,000. In the 2015 tax return listing the company’s $585 million lifetime deficit, Theranos reported just $429,000 in revenue. Despite those losses, Yam explained how Theranos continued to induce investors to buy 530 million shares of private stock between 2014 and 2015, during which the share price surged from 17 cents to $17, bringing in a total of more than $944 million.Next up was Erika Cheung, who worked as a Theranos lab associate for less than a year in 2013 and 2014, then turned federal whistleblower after witnessing and being asked to conduct what she described as fraudulent practices in the startup’s labs.

She recalled those practices to jurors on Tuesday and Wednesday. After joining the company fresh out of college and excited to work for a CEO hailed as a visionary, Cheung said she quickly became disillusioned. At one point, per the The New York Times, she underwent a blood test using its device and was told she had a vitamin D deficiency that no other test had identified. Despite Holmes’ dream of running hundreds of blood tests on the Edison analyzers simultaneously, Cheung said that in reality, they were only ever able to run a maximum of 12 tests at once. Instead, she testified, most of their tests were run on other companies’ devices. Her confidence in Theranos’ mission waned further when, during quality control tests, she regularly witnessed lab workers deleting up to two of six data points to remove outliers and make the results seem more positive.

When shown a chart suggesting that about one-quarter of the blood tests run on Theranos’ devices failed quality control, according to CNBC, Cheung pointed out that testing machines that are cleared by the FDA (unlike Theranos’) rarely fail those protocols. “You’d have about the same luck flipping a coin as to whether your results were right or wrong,” she said. “It was concerning to see this degree of failure—this was not typical for a normal lab.” In response, Holmes’ defense team claimed Cheung had only minimal interactions with the CEO and, as Cheung confirmed, never brought up these issues with Holmes directly. They also presented documents signing off on the results of those quality control tests for regulators, noting that Holmes wasn’t one of the signers.

That evidence echoes the defense’s claims in its opening statements that Holmes wasn’t privy to many of the regulatory issues within Theranos’ labs, which they say were instead the responsibility of the lab directors and Balwani, who was reportedly in charge of overseeing the facilities. Much like the failed startup at its core, Holmes’ trial has been plagued by issues. For one thing, it began more than a year after its scheduled kickoff date, thanks to a handful of delays caused by the defense team’s need for more time to review the evidence, then by the COVID-19 pandemic and finally, in March, by Holmes’ pregnancy. Even now that it’s begun, however, the trial’s path has been far from smooth. After last Wednesday’s opening statements, the trial was scheduled to resume Friday but was forced to take a hiatus after a juror reported possible exposure to COVID. Then, once proceedings restarted on Tuesday, another juror had to be excused after learning that her employer wouldn’t compensate her throughout her participation in the trial, which is expected to stretch until January 2022.

Barring any further interruptions, the jurors will continue to hear from witnesses drawn from a list of hundreds. The star-studded roster includes past champions of Theranos like Henry Kissinger and Rupert Murdoch as well as healthcare leaders like Eric Topol, M.D., and former Cleveland Clinic CEO Toby Cosgrove, M.D., who were cautiously optimistic of the company’s proposed technology. Holmes, her parents and her brother could also be called to testify. According to The Wall Street Journal, the likely next witness will be Daniel Edlin. The former Theranos project manager may be asked to shed some light on claims the company made about its technology to eventual partner Walgreens and the U.S. Department of Defense—with whom the company never had any revenue-generating contracts, Yam testified, contradicting the claims of a profitable partnership that Holmes allegedly made to investors.

The fact that she manipulated a lot of things along with Balwani and now say not enough evidence.

It reminds me of one of Columbo's old television dramas where he either had this watch repaired or presented a similar one (can't remember all the details or what series it was) that was suppose to belong to a victim. So he kept a few people behind and ask them what they thought of it. Now the killer knew that watch was damaged and therefore thought it couldn't be the same exact watch of the victim that he murdered and reacted.

[rsjsouza]

Not only that but how can someone supposedly broken financially have a "team" of lawyers and go through such long line of appeals to try to circumvent condemnation?

Either family or the new husband are being manipulated or she hid a lot of the money amassed during the fraudulent operation to pay for all that. Common people like you and me would never have such resources.

[Stray Electron]

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-jury-convicts-theranos-sunny-balwani-fraud-2022-07-07/

A U.S. jury on Thursday convicted former Theranos Inc President Ramesh "Sunny" Balwani of defrauding investors and patients about the blood testing startup that was once valued at $9 billion.

Balwani was convicted on two counts of conspiracy and 10 counts of fraud, a spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office confirmed.

Interestingly he got convicted for more 'criminal acts' than Ms Holmes

    That's not surprising.  At least in the US, women always seem to get convicted of fewer charges and get lighter sentences than men do, even when both are involved in exactly the same crime. Legally, that's not supposed to happen but if you watch the verdicts and the sentences in very many court cases you'll see that it does in nearly ALL cases.

    And don't kid yourselves, in the US "up to 20 years" means that they will be eligible for parole in 7 years and will almost certainly get it unless that they behave very badly while in prison.

[rsjsouza]

Interestingly he got convicted for more 'criminal acts' than Ms Holmes

That's not surprising. At least in the US, women always seem to get are convicted of fewer charges and get lighter sentences than men do, even when both are involved in exactly the same crime. Legally, that's not supposed to happen but if you watch the verdicts and the sentences in very many court cases you'll see that it does in nearly ALL cases.

FTFY. That's the "patriarchy" working in favour of men

And don't kid yourselves, in the US "up to 20 years" means that they will be eligible for parole in 7 years and will almost certainly get it unless that they behave very badly while in prison.

That is pretty much everywhere and it has been since immemorial times... The one who has money has access to all the perks the law grants them.

[AVGresponding]

Not only that but how can someone supposedly broken financially have a "team" of lawyers and go through such long line of appeals to try to circumvent condemnation?

Either family or the new husband are being manipulated or she hid a lot of the money amassed during the fraudulent operation to pay for all that. Common people like you and me would never have such resources.

Wouldn't surprise me if they were doing it "on spec" due to the fact of the incredible exposure it grants them.

[SiliconWizard]

Not only that but how can someone supposedly broken financially have a "team" of lawyers and go through such long line of appeals to try to circumvent condemnation?

Either family or the new husband are being manipulated or she hid a lot of the money amassed during the fraudulent operation to pay for all that. Common people like you and me would never have such resources.

Wouldn't surprise me if they were doing it "on spec" due to the fact of the incredible exposure it grants them.

Definitely. And as we know, this kind of trials are going to be more and more common with the explosion of dodgy startups, so there's so much business to be done here that it's probably worth doing some for little money just to reap the benefits later on.

[PlainName]

doing it "on spec"

Pro bono. Most US practices are encouraged to do ~50hrs/yr, but it's typically done for those on low incomes or poverty-stricken clients who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it.

the incredible exposure it grants them

There is that, but it would look even better if they were on the winning side

Still, they haven't yet completely given up, and if they manage to rescue something from an obviously lost cause that could be a big plus.

[AVGresponding]

doing it "on spec"

Pro bono. Most US practices are encouraged to do ~50hrs/yr, but it's typically done for those on low incomes or poverty-stricken clients who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it.

the incredible exposure it grants them

There is that, but it would look even better if they were on the winning side

Still, they haven't yet completely given up, and if they manage to rescue something from an obviously lost cause that could be a big plus.

"On spec" or "on a speculative basis" is basically shorthand for "no win no fee". As for winning or losing, you might be surprised at how little that matters. It only really matters if you lose an "easy win", which this is quite obviously not. In this instance the performance of the defence lawyers will be judged by their peers on how long they manage to drag things out.

[PlainName]

OK

[tszaboo]

Is she already behind bars?

[AVGresponding]

AFAIK she's out on bail, pending sentencing.

[N0NB]

Around 20 Years in jail.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61902378

Both Holmes, 38, and Balwani, 57, will be sentenced by a judge in the autumn. Holmes is facing *around 20 years in prison and is currently free on bail. Balwani also faces *up to 20 years in prison as well as millions of dollars in restitution payments to his victims.

*I wonder what the "Up to" and "around 20 years" will amount to?

Does that mean they could just be jailed for 20 years each but could be let out at any time inbetween the sentences?

It could mean that and it can mean that the judge (or jury in some cases) has the disgression to set a term up to but not exceeding 20 years or whatever maximum allowed by law.

Parole is a separate deal although the length of time served before eligible for parole or no chance for parole can be imposed at the time of sentencing.  I'm no lawyer nor involved in the system, this is just what I have gleaned over the years.

[PlainName]

Who'd've thought it - someone wanted to be just like Theranos. Literally.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/02/business/mark-schena-arrayit-fraud-theranos.html

[MrMobodies]

Is she already behind bars?

Sounds to me like she is running the court.

https://nypost.com/2022/09/06/theranos-founder-elizabeth-holmes-seeks-new-trial/

Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes seeks new trial over alleged regrets of key witness
By David Propper September 6, 2022 9:34pm  Updated

Disgraced Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes called for a new trial Tuesday after a key witness for prosecutors said “he had done something wrong” during his testimony against the convicted scam artist, her legal team alleged Tuesday. Holmes’ court filing claims former Theranos lab director Adam Rosendorff now regrets his role in helping convict her of charges that could land her behind bars for 20 years. She is currently free on bail before sentencing scheduled Oct. 17 in California.

Holmes, 38, was found guilty earlier this year of three counts of wire fraud and one count of conspiracy to commit fraud. Jurors determined she deliberately misled investors about the medical tech startup’s business and the effectiveness of its blood-testing machine. Rosendorff testified he continuously raised concerns about how accurate Theranos blood tests used by patients were while he was with the company in 2013 and 2014. But a 17-page legal brief describes a man who now might have second thoughts about his testimony.

On Aug. 8, Rosendorff went to Holmes’ home which she shares with partner William Evans according to the filing. He only saw Evans, who told him to leave, Holmes’ lawyers said. But before he left, Rosendorff told Evans “he tried to answer the questions honestly but that the prosecutors tried to make everyone look bad” and now believes “he had done something wrong,” while testifying, the filing alleges. Before that random visit, he left a voicemail for one of her lawyers asking to meet with Holmes, believing it could be “quite healing” for both of them, the filing states. Rosendorff’s testimony was referenced in prosecutors’ closing argument and by a federal judge when a motion to set aside the guilty verdict was rejected. Holmes’ lawyers have not been able to get additional thoughts from Rosendorff about his testimony for ethical reasons. A hearing might be held next month about whether a new trial should be set. 


Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes, center, and her parents, Noel Holmes, left, and Christian Holmes, leave the Robert F. Peckham Federal Building and U.S. Courthouse in San Jose, Calif., on Thursday, Sept. 1, 2022.Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes and her parents, Noel Holmes and Christian Holmes, leave the Robert F. Peckham Federal Building and U.S. Courthouse in San Jose, California on Sept. 1, 2022.
AP
While convicted of four counts, Holmes was also found not guilty by the same jury on charges of fraud and conspiracy against patients who used Theranos blood testing.

The Associated Press reached out to Rosendorff, who declined comment to them.

With Post wires

Joke: Is that a sad looking mum with an onion looking daughter that I see.

[PlainName]

Not sure I understand the basis for requesting a retrial (other than any straw is worth clutching). The chap turns up and says he tried to answer the question honestly but feels bad about it and regrets doing so. But surely whether or not he feels bad is irrelevant - he admits that he answered honestly, and that's all that counts. In fact, that should make his testimony stronger!

Sounds like he's learning how to be a stalker.

[rsjsouza]

My cynical eye tells me he was promised something under the table to throw sand into the gears of the process. My fair eye says he was honest but didn't know where his answers would lead. Now that he saw the consequences, he regrets making his friend (?) look bad.

All in all, what a circus.

[Stray Electron]

All in all, what a circus.

   That's how celebrity trials in the US are run.  Shades of Johnny Cockran shouting in court "If the glove doesn't fit, you MUST acquit!

    I'll just point out that here in the US, the prosecution always gets to question the witness and present evidence FIRST and the defense gets to question them afterwards and always has the final word in questioning witnesses and the final opportunity to present or to repudiate evidence.  SO if the witness thought his testimony was misunderstood or somehow twisted by the prosecution, then the defense had their opportunity to question him and to present that argument during the trial. Since they evidently didn't do that then I have to believe that despite his regrets, nothing that he could or would have said (short of perjury) would have changed the legal arguments or the verdict in the trial.

[MrMobodies]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/elizabeth-holmes-sentencing-delayed-again

Elizabeth Holmes Sentencing for Theranos Fraud Postponed (1)
Oct. 3, 2022, 7:22 PM

Elizabeth Holmes’s prison sentencing was delayed because the judge overseeing the Theranos Inc. fraud case is probing whether a key government witness gave truthful testimony at trial after her lawyers said he voiced misgivings during a recent visit to her home.

If wasn't intentional she seems to have a lot going for her.

[MikeK]

It hasn't been pointed out yet: She's the daughter of an Enron exec.  Possibly inherited the psychopathy.

[EEVblog]

It hasn't been pointed out yet: She's the daughter of an Enron exec.  Possibly inherited the psychopathy.

Really? That's some plot twist!

[MrMobodies]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Holmes

Her father, Christian Rasmus Holmes IV, was a vice president at Enron, an energy company that later went bankrupt after an accounting fraud scandal.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/elizabeth-holmess-dad-once-linked-152150716.html

Naledi Ushe March 9, 2022·2 min read

So, what was Christian IV's role? Elizabeth's father was a former Enron vice president, according to Forbes. It's unclear what sector of Enron he oversaw.

Christian IV went on to work at the United States Agency for International Development, where he led the company's global water supply and sanitation programs, according to his LinkedIn profile. Currently, he has been the senior advisor at the The Boston Consulting Group since February 2017, his page states with no mention of Enron.

It hasn't been pointed out yet: She's the daughter of an Enron exec.  Possibly inherited the psychopathy.

...and that smirk

[Ed.Kloonk]

The apple never falls far from the tree.

Still more males presented to foot the blame for this.

[magic]

Still more males presented to foot the blame for this.

Women are made of pure conformism so nothing is ever their fault.
Feminists talk about it all the time and yet the Patriarchy refuses to believe women.
The Patriarchy hurts men as much as it hurts women, again.

Something like that

[Ed.Kloonk]

Still more males presented to foot the blame for this.

Women are made of pure conformism so nothing is ever their fault.
Feminists talk about it all the time and yet the Patriarchy refuses to believe women.
The Patriarchy hurts men as much as it hurts women, again.

Something like that

Yet, none of the men how lost coin or lost their shareholders coin due to their own negligence or diligence have managed to accept any responsibility.

[EEVblog]

Yet, none of the men how lost coin or lost their shareholders coin due to their own negligence or diligence have managed to accept any responsibility.

That's not how the game is played.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Yet, none of the men how lost coin or lost their shareholders coin due to their own negligence or diligence have managed to accept any responsibility.

That's not how the game is played.

I know. Just me pointing out the stinking obvious.
 

[tom66]

Something about the way Holmes looks into cameras, or at people, is unnerving.  It's as if every expression is pained or calculated - there's no natural expression there.  I don't think I've seen a single picture of her where she's even slightly grumpy looking, despite the fact she's facing 20 years.  It's all very unsettling.

[SiliconWizard]

It's a facial expression that's similar to that of Mark Zuckerberg, with eyes wide open all the time with very little blinking.

[MrMobodies]

She appears to be a very lucky person with getting away with things and I think she might just wriggle out of this one with whatever help she seems to be getting from the outside.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63140536
Elizabeth Holmes: Theranos founder gets hearing on new trial
Published 12 hours ago By Peter Hoskins Business reporter

Sentencing of former Theranos boss Elizabeth Holmes has been delayed as a judge considers whether the testimony of a key witness in her high-profile trial was truthful. Holmes requested a new trial after claiming that federal prosecutors presented misleading evidence.

She was convicted in January on four of 11 counts of defrauding investors in the blood-testing firm. The decision marks the latest twist in a case that has gripped Silicon Valley. Holmes entered the "motion for a new trial based on newly discovered evidence" regarding former Theranos laboratory director Adam Rosendorff, court papers showed. Holmes' lawyers said that Mr Rosendorff appeared at her home in August to express regret over his testimony in the trial.

This latest development comes after her lawyers last month failed in an attempt to get the conviction overturned. Holmes, who is currently free on bail, had been due to be sentenced on 17 October. In January, a jury found Holmes guilty of defrauding investors after a months-long landmark trial in California. Jurors found her guilty of conspiracy to commit fraud against investors and three charges of wire fraud. She denied the charges.

Prosecutors said Holmes knowingly lied about technology that she said could detect diseases such as cancer and diabetes with a few drops of blood. The firm promised that it would revolutionise the healthcare industry with the test. But these claims began to unravel in 2015 after a Wall Street Journal investigation reported that its core blood-testing technology did not work.

Her ex-boyfriend and former Theranos President Ramesh "Sunny" Balwani was found guilty in July on similar counts, as well as defrauding patients. He is scheduled to be sentenced next month. Theranos was once the darling of biotech and Silicon Valley, valued at $9bn (£7.9bn) at its peak. Holmes was able to raise more than $900m from billionaires, including media magnate Rupert Murdoch and technology mogul Larry Ellison.[/quote]

[coppice]

It's a facial expression that's similar to that of Mark Zuckerberg, with eyes wide open all the time with very little blinking.

She reminds me more of Margaret Thatcher. Everything about her seems to have been trained into her, to suppress her actual nature. Her low authoritative sounding voice, that keeps tilting in pitch and confusing people (i.e. she seems to get interrupted a low). Her mannerisms. Pretty much everything about her outward appearance seems as fake as a TikTok model.

[floobydust]

She has Sanpaku eyes

[MikeK]

I read today that she's asking for 18 months of house arrest instead of a [maximum] possible 80 year jail sentence.  I wonder if she said "Pwetty pwease mister big stwong judgey man."

[Ed.Kloonk]

It's a facial expression that's similar to that of Mark Zuckerberg, with eyes wide open all the time with very little blinking.

She reminds me more of Margaret Thatcher. Everything about her seems to have been trained into her, to suppress her actual nature. Her low authoritative sounding voice, that keeps tilting in pitch and confusing people (i.e. she seems to get interrupted a low). Her mannerisms. Pretty much everything about her outward appearance seems as fake as a TikTok model.

Can you explain this more? Maggie was a lot of things but we knew where we stood with her. I remember as being anything but fake or deceptive, just staunch AF.

[AVGresponding]

It's a facial expression that's similar to that of Mark Zuckerberg, with eyes wide open all the time with very little blinking.

She reminds me more of Margaret Thatcher. Everything about her seems to have been trained into her, to suppress her actual nature. Her low authoritative sounding voice, that keeps tilting in pitch and confusing people (i.e. she seems to get interrupted a low). Her mannerisms. Pretty much everything about her outward appearance seems as fake as a TikTok model.

Can you explain this more? Maggie was a lot of things but we knew where we stood with her. I remember as being anything but fake or deceptive, just staunch AF.

Milk Snatcher had voice training to lower her voice to make her sound more authoritative. As for being fake or deceptive, she destroyed the mass manufacturing industries in this country, and got the workers to vote for it. Pretty sure that counts.

NB: Not saying she did it single handed, she had help from incompetent and corrupt union leaders, but she was the driving force.

[MikeK]

Maggie was a lot of things but we knew where we stood with her. I remember as being anything but fake or deceptive, just staunch AF.

The same could be said for all fascist dictators.

(And the Piranha Brothers.)

[coppice]

It's a facial expression that's similar to that of Mark Zuckerberg, with eyes wide open all the time with very little blinking.

She reminds me more of Margaret Thatcher. Everything about her seems to have been trained into her, to suppress her actual nature. Her low authoritative sounding voice, that keeps tilting in pitch and confusing people (i.e. she seems to get interrupted a low). Her mannerisms. Pretty much everything about her outward appearance seems as fake as a TikTok model.

Can you explain this more? Maggie was a lot of things but we knew where we stood with her. I remember as being anything but fake or deceptive, just staunch AF.

This has nothing to do with what she stood for, although the high levels of corruption she would tolerate around her suggested she would stand for anything.

Its her manufactured style. Try finding video of her from the early 70s. For example when she was the education minister. Then compare that to video of her in the 1980s when she was in power. Its not like looking at someone who had matured and gained stature. You are looking at a manufactured product. People famously seemed to interrupt her a lot, but this was her fault. She couldn't maintain the trained low authoritative voice consistently. She would let it rise, realise, and drop the tone suddenly. Tone is punctuation in English, and a sharp fall in tone is a period/full stop. So, the other party started talking. Her whole manufactured persona is very similar to Elizabeth Holmes.

[Sal Ammoniac]

She got 11 years and 3 months in prison. Ouch!

[EEVblog]

She got 11 years and 3 months in prison. Ouch!

Which prison that is determines the true fate.

[EEVblog]

She doesn't even go straight to prison 

Elizabeth Holmes, founder and CEO of the collapsed Silicon Valley blood testing company, Theranos, has been sentenced to 11.25 years in prison plus three years supervised release for financial crimes she committed while running the once-high flying venture.

Holmes was also fined a $400 million special assessment. Holmes must surrender to custody on April 27, 2023. Holmes is expected to appeal.

[Sal Ammoniac]

She got 11 years and 3 months in prison. Ouch!

Which prison that is determines the true fate.

Probably a country club prison for white collar criminals.

[Sal Ammoniac]

She doesn't even go straight to prison 

Elizabeth Holmes, founder and CEO of the collapsed Silicon Valley blood testing company, Theranos, has been sentenced to 11.25 years in prison plus three years supervised release for financial crimes she committed while running the once-high flying venture.

Holmes was also fined a $400 million special assessment. Holmes must surrender to custody on April 27, 2023. Holmes is expected to appeal.

Well, she is pregnant...

[langwadt]

She got 11 years and 3 months in prison. Ouch!

Which prison that is determines the true fate.

even at a luxury hotel being locked up for parts of 11 years isn't going to be fun

[EEVblog]

She doesn't even go straight to prison 

Elizabeth Holmes, founder and CEO of the collapsed Silicon Valley blood testing company, Theranos, has been sentenced to 11.25 years in prison plus three years supervised release for financial crimes she committed while running the once-high flying venture.

Holmes was also fined a $400 million special assessment. Holmes must surrender to custody on April 27, 2023. Holmes is expected to appeal.

Well, she is pregnant...

Didn't know she was pregnant again. Guess that trick didn't work.

[Stray Electron]

She got 11 years and 3 months in prison. Ouch!

  That means that she will probably be released in 5 (give or take) years.

[Marco]

No parole for federal crime.

[Stray Electron]

    I'll have to take your word for that. 

   But I think that being pregnant will give her a free pass anyway.  Even after she delivers, I doubt the Feds will separate her and the child.

[langwadt]

She doesn't even go straight to prison 

Elizabeth Holmes, founder and CEO of the collapsed Silicon Valley blood testing company, Theranos, has been sentenced to 11.25 years in prison plus three years supervised release for financial crimes she committed while running the once-high flying venture.

Holmes was also fined a $400 million special assessment. Holmes must surrender to custody on April 27, 2023. Holmes is expected to appeal.

Well, she is pregnant...

Didn't know she was pregnant again. Guess that trick didn't work.

when, neither "I'm a women", "my boyfriend forced me" , "I'm pregnant" works you know she screwed the wrong people

[Marco]

But I think that being pregnant will give her a free pass anyway.  Even after she delivers, I doubt the Feds will separate her and the child.

They don't have a lot of room any more post-sentencing, leniency now has to happen in public during the court case. No longer at politically appointed parole boards long after the court case left the lime light. Don't do federal crime in the US if you're rich, only the president can help you any more now.

[chris_leyson]

What is really worrying is that none of the backers did any research or showed any due diligence of any sort. It's just not possible with such a tiny sample. The backers were stupid but you can't prosecute stupidity.

[Psi]

She doesn't even go straight to prison 

That's pretty normal for non-violent crimes.

[bdunham7]

What is really worrying is that none of the backers did any research or showed any due diligence of any sort. It's just not possible with such a tiny sample. The backers were stupid but you can't prosecute stupidity.

The brilliance of her scheme was that she sought out backers and a board that didn't have any subject matter knowledge.  I imagine some of those she approached realized they didn't know anything and consulted with people who did.  The remainder became the board members and investors.  The one that seems to be a worrisome anomaly is Walgreens, you'd think somebody there would know somebody who would know.

[Stray Electron]

The brilliance of her scheme was that she sought out backers and a board that didn't have any subject matter knowledge.

   Hmm.  That in itself makes me think that from the very beginning this whole event was a conspiracy to defraud the investors.

 I imagine some of those she approached realized they didn't know anything and consulted with people who did.  The remainder became the board members and investors.  The one that seems to be a worrisome anomaly is Walgreens, you'd think somebody there would know somebody who would know.

   Not necessarily.  The current generation of Walgreens are probably far removed from the generation of Walgreens that made the company a success and the current generation probably doesn't know anything beyond how to be rich and spend money. But if anyone had the connections to the pharma industry and the experts that could tell them if Holmes' scheme had potential, it was them.

  All of this reminds me of the Bernie Madoff and the Bernard Ebbers/WorldCom frauds.  Some investors did do their due diligence and knew that things didn't add up so they didn't invest. But most investors just saw $$$$ and didn't look any further. Those people should be in jail right along with the Madoff and Ebbers.

  Going back to E Holmes, the thing that bothers me is that she claimed to have some NEW technology that would allow her to build machines that would do what she claimed but yet she had NOTHING to back that claim and yet people believed her!

[EEVblog]

But I think that being pregnant will give her a free pass anyway.  Even after she delivers, I doubt the Feds will separate her and the child.

They have to, she's been convicted and sentenced. Could win an appeal of course, and I'm sure they'll lean heavily on the baby angle. But otherwise she's going to prison 

[EEVblog]

She doesn't even go straight to prison 

That's pretty normal for non-violent crimes.

I do remember the same thing happening for the Big Battery guy who pirated thos Microsoft disks, and I think maybe Chris Boden from the Geek Group too?

[EEVblog]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/18/technology/elizabeth-holmes-sentence-theranos.html

Ms. Holmes will be assigned to a prison by the Federal Bureau of Prisons based on factors such as location, space, her lack of criminal history and the nonviolent nature of her crime. The minimum security prison nearest to Ms. Holmes’s residence in Woodside, Calif., is likely the Federal Correctional Institution in Dublin.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/CLUB-FED-Women-s-prison-in-Dublin-has-some-3003456.php

[MikeK]

Wow, so she deliberately got pregnant to reduce her sentence?...What a nutjob.  I pity that child.

[Psi]

She doesn't even go straight to prison 

That's pretty normal for non-violent crimes.

I do remember the same thing happening for the Big Battery guy who pirated thos Microsoft disks, and I think maybe Chris Boden from the Geek Group too?

Yeah, it's pretty much to stop the jails getting overcrowded with people waiting for an opening to be available in a prison.

[EEVblog]

Wow, so she deliberately got pregnant to reduce her sentence?...What a nutjob.  I pity that child.

Twice. She conveniently got pregent during the initial trial. This new kid is for the sentencing.

[Bud]

Too bad that Balwani cannot get pregnant   

[fourfathom]

What is really worrying is that none of the backers did any research or showed any due diligence of any sort. It's just not possible with such a tiny sample. The backers were stupid but you can't prosecute stupidity.

At the very early stages of a cutting-edge startup there is usually some "And then a miracle occurs" factor.  Sometimes this miracle occurs, some times it doesn't.  And even if it doesn't there is often some valuable byproduct that results from the effort.  So I don't necessarily fault the initial investors for giving Holmes a few (hundreds of thousands) dollars to see what she could make happen.  What I *do* fault them for is for not pulling the plug before it spiraled out of control and other people were harmed.  Obviously Holmes lied, but the lead investors still should have been able to see the problems.

[Stray Electron]

Wow, so she deliberately got pregnant to reduce her sentence?...What a nutjob.  I pity that child.

Twice. She conveniently got pregent during the initial trial. This new kid is for the sentencing.

  She might end up with a large family by the time this is all over and done with.

[SiliconWizard]

What is really worrying is that none of the backers did any research or showed any due diligence of any sort. It's just not possible with such a tiny sample. The backers were stupid but you can't prosecute stupidity.

At the very early stages of a cutting-edge startup there is usually some "And then a miracle occurs" factor.  Sometimes this miracle occurs, some times it doesn't.  And even if it doesn't there is often some valuable byproduct that results from the effort.  So I don't necessarily fault the initial investors for giving Holmes a few (hundreds of thousands) dollars to see what she could make happen.  What I *do* fault them for is for not pulling the plug before it spiraled out of control and other people were harmed.  Obviously Holmes lied, but the lead investors still should have been able to see the problems.

Well uh, yeah. Do people realize that Theranos was created 20 years ago and that it operated for 15 years? That's crazy.
15 fricking years guys. Not 3.

[rsjsouza]

Solar roadways is eight years old and going the same path, although not with the potential to cause as much harm as Theranos - well, unless they manage to put their shiny glass in a busy highway and it rains... 

[SiliconWizard]

Yep. That's the crazy part. Nobody in their right mind can keep claiming over such a long time period that they never saw any problem. And suddenly, a decade or more later, bam. Big surprise.
Yeah, right.

But yes, this just keeps happening and people holding money and power keep playing innocent victims. Fricking liers.

[Nominal Animal]

This has happened before, and this will happen again.

The only thing we can do to make it happen as rarely as possible, is to make sure the punishment acts as a deterrent.

It is pretty clear Holmes is one of the people who aren't bound by morals or social norms (i.e., sociopath or psychopath, depending on how you define the terms), so although a punishment will not cause her to change, it will cause her to reconsider what actions are acceptable due to their consequences.

A year and a half confined to her luxury home would definitely not do that.  Only the loss of control of her personal life (i.e., in a correctional facility, with enforced timetables and rules) will do that.

She has been trying hard to appear small, feminine, someone to be protected, because she wants to avoid the consequences, and is appealing to base instincts and others' morals to do so.  ("Would you really put a mother of a baby in jail for a non-violent crime?")

I find her actions despicable on multiple levels.  What she did is one thing.  But using calculated manipulation in the hopes of avoiding the consequences, that is another, and in my opinion, should also be punished for.  Harshly.

[langwadt]

Yep. That's the crazy part. Nobody in their right mind can keep claiming over such a long time period that they never saw any problem. And suddenly, a decade or more later, bam. Big surprise.
Yeah, right.

But yes, this just keeps happening and people holding money and power keep playing innocent victims. Fricking liers.

if you were heavily invested in something and found it was a scam would you expose it and lose all the money, or be quiet and hope to find a way out with some of the money?

did anyone but billionaires with more money than brains hoping to make even more money lose anything?

[magic]

Too bad that Balwani cannot get pregnant   

I wouldn't be entirely sure of that; cross your fingers and this story may keep giving for a little longer

  She might end up with a large family by the time this is all over and done with.

Arguably a better use of her time than business, but all the angered male feminists in this thread will continue to wish her a life in prison instead

[Nominal Animal]

did anyone but billionaires with more money than brains hoping to make even more money lose anything?

Well, Ian Gibbons (the chief scientist) apparently lost his will to live because of this mess, and killed himself.

[PlainName]

Wow, so she deliberately got pregnant to reduce her sentence?...What a nutjob.  I pity that child.

Twice. She conveniently got pregent during the initial trial. This new kid is for the sentencing.

Are you sure you want to be unequivocal on that, or should you note that your opinion is it's a potentially fortuitous coincidence?

[Black Phoenix]

Wow, so she deliberately got pregnant to reduce her sentence?...What a nutjob.  I pity that child.

Twice. She conveniently got pregent during the initial trial. This new kid is for the sentencing.

Are you sure you want to be unequivocal on that, or should you note that your opinion is it's a potentially fortuitous coincidence?

Sorry but knowing the profile of the Elizabeth Holmes, I'm with Dave on this one. It's too good to be coincidentally, in both instances...

[MikeK]

Absolutely.  She's a psycho.  Hopefully those kids won't be too demented.

[MrMobodies]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11447809/Widow-British-scientist-67-celebrates-11-year-jail-sentence-pregnant-fraudster.html

Widow of a British scientist, 67, who killed himself while working for bogus blood-testing firm Theranos celebrates the 11 year jail sentence for pregnant fraudster Elizabeth Holmes

By DANIEL BATES IN NEW YORK FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY
PUBLISHED: 22:01, 19 November 2022 | UPDATED: 22:41, 19 November 2022

...

During her sentencing, Holmes broke down in tears as she addressed the court, saying she was 'devastated by my failings' and felt 'deep pain' for what she put others through, while her lawyers insisted she was only trying to help people.

But Mrs Gibbons said: 'That's b*******. She didn't feel anything.'

Holmes, 38, has said she will appeal against the sentence. She is pregnant with her second child and will not be locked up until April, when the court in San Jose, California, has ordered her to surrender to custody. The judge will later hold a hearing determining how much money she will have to repay

Mrs Gibbons, 75, said Holmes should have been 'locked up right away', adding: 'She was really foolish. The way she conducted herself with the jury – smiling and flirting.

... and possibly a third one in April in an attempt to buy some more time.

Joke: She was "devastated by her failings" to wriggle out of court and felt deep pain for the victims that she couldn't shut them up in time.

[PlainName]

Wow, so she deliberately got pregnant to reduce her sentence?...What a nutjob.  I pity that child.

Twice. She conveniently got pregent during the initial trial. This new kid is for the sentencing.

Are you sure you want to be unequivocal on that, or should you note that your opinion is it's a potentially fortuitous coincidence?

Sorry but knowing the profile of the Elizabeth Holmes, I'm with Dave on this one. It's too good to be coincidentally, in both instances...

Perhaps you're unaware of recent cases that might include Johnny Depp and Rebekah Vardy, amongst others. The likes of me and you don't have enough funds to make a court case worthwhile, but Dave is rather more high profile and wealthy.

It is one thing to state an opinion, quite another to state something as fact.

[JPortici]

Wow, so she deliberately got pregnant to reduce her sentence?...What a nutjob.  I pity that child.

Twice. She conveniently got pregent during the initial trial. This new kid is for the sentencing.

Are you sure you want to be unequivocal on that, or should you note that your opinion is it's a potentially fortuitous coincidence?

Not unheard of (not the only one, just the first news article i could find)
https://milano.corriere.it/notizie/cronaca/21_dicembre_14/milano-ladra-sempre-incinta-30-anni-scontare-mai-giorno-carcere-neanche-stavolta-f1472968-5ca9-11ec-b726-1eb27041da48.shtml

(sorry for the need to translate but i don't think these cases ever go international news)

[Black Phoenix]

Wow, so she deliberately got pregnant to reduce her sentence?...What a nutjob.  I pity that child.

Twice. She conveniently got pregent during the initial trial. This new kid is for the sentencing.

Are you sure you want to be unequivocal on that, or should you note that your opinion is it's a potentially fortuitous coincidence?

Sorry but knowing the profile of the Elizabeth Holmes, I'm with Dave on this one. It's too good to be coincidentally, in both instances...

Perhaps you're unaware of recent cases that might include Johnny Depp and Rebekah Vardy, amongst others. The likes of me and you don't have enough funds to make a court case worthwhile, but Dave is rather more high profile and wealthy.

It is one thing to state an opinion, quite another to state something as fact.

Ahh for fuck sake, go outside touch the grass... You must live in the fantasy world were everything is perfect and no one lies or have second intentions/motives.

So you really believe that she got pregnant not once but twice because she felt it would be able to take care of her kids and everything was an injustice, so the case would be dropped? Or that it was an "accident"?

Come on, you must also believe in Santa's and the Easter Bunny, no?

[PlainName]

Wow, so she deliberately got pregnant to reduce her sentence?...What a nutjob.  I pity that child.

Twice. She conveniently got pregent during the initial trial. This new kid is for the sentencing.

Are you sure you want to be unequivocal on that, or should you note that your opinion is it's a potentially fortuitous coincidence?

Sorry but knowing the profile of the Elizabeth Holmes, I'm with Dave on this one. It's too good to be coincidentally, in both instances...

Perhaps you're unaware of recent cases that might include Johnny Depp and Rebekah Vardy, amongst others. The likes of me and you don't have enough funds to make a court case worthwhile, but Dave is rather more high profile and wealthy.

It is one thing to state an opinion, quite another to state something as fact.

Ahh for fuck sake, go outside touch the grass... You must live in the fantasy world were everything is perfect and no one lies or have second intentions/motives.

So you really believe that she got pregnant not once but twice because she felt it would be able to take care of her kids and everything was an injustice, so the case would be dropped? Or that it was an "accident"?

Come on, you must also believe in Santa's and the Easter Bunny, no?

WTF?!?! Are you incapable of reading or just understanding? This is exactly why we can't have proper discussions on here, because any 'off-piste' thing automatically means "if you're not 100% with us you're against us".

This is not about what I am alleged to believe. In fact, I was once propositioned to get some lass pregnant explicitly to jump the council housing queue, so I am not unaware that this stuff goes on.

If you would care to reread my original, you will see that I am suggesting that Dave might care to protect himself from someone deciding he's worth making an example of, or getting some free money. Whether or not anyone believes anything or not is irrelevant - just defending yourself from such a high-profile suit is painfully expensive even if it has no merit.

[Black Phoenix]

WTF?!?! Are you incapable of reading or just understanding? This is exactly why we can't have proper discussions on here, because any 'off-piste' thing automatically means "if you're not 100% with us you're against us".

This is not about what I am alleged to believe. In fact, I was once propositioned to get some lass pregnant explicitly to jump the council housing queue, so I am not unaware that this stuff goes on.

If you would care to reread my original, you will see that I am suggesting that Dave might care to protect himself from someone deciding he's worth making an example of, or getting some free money. Whether or not anyone believes anything or not is irrelevant - just defending yourself from such a high-profile suit is painfully expensive even if it has no merit.

OK, point taken. My apologies for my lashing out on you. My mistake and my lack of understanding it.

English is not my first language and although I'm confident on my speech and grasp of meanings sometimes as now this kind of stuff happens.

Although this is not to put the excuse on that, because it was totally my misunderstanding.

[Stray Electron]

did anyone but billionaires with more money than brains hoping to make even more money lose anything?

   Oh, yes, they certainly did!  A lot of investment funds managers bought into this and many of the pie-in-the-sky ventures that didn't work.  The really SAD part is that they invested funds from retirement accounts of working class people who had been investing into what were supposed to be safe retirement funds for all of their working lives. As a result of both Homes' scam and other scams (Bernie Madoff, for example) and other ill conceived projects, hundreds of thousands if not millions of hard working people have little, and sometimes no, funds for retirement.

   I've never seen anyone that was RICH lose everything in this sorts of schemes but I have seen a lot of middle class working people lose their entire retirement  (for example at WorldCom), and many more that lose a major portion of their retirement, due to poor choices made by their funds manager.   That's why IMO anyone that bought into Holmes' scheme and invested other people's money should go to jail right along with Holmes and the others.  I would have to say that IMO everyone that invested in Holmes' scheme didn't do their due diligence and they should all be held responsible.   If they invested their own money, then fine, they can suffer the financial loss. But if they invested money that belonged to other people, then they failed in their fiduciary responsibility and should be held financially and criminally responsible.

[Stray Electron]

This has happened before, and this will happen again.

The only thing we can do to make it happen as rarely as possible, is to make sure the punishment acts as a deterrent.

It is pretty clear Holmes is one of the people who aren't bound by morals or social norms (i.e., sociopath or psychopath, depending on how you define the terms), so although a punishment will not cause her to change, it will cause her to reconsider what actions are acceptable due to their consequences.

A year and a half confined to her luxury home would definitely not do that.  Only the loss of control of her personal life (i.e., in a correctional facility, with enforced timetables and rules) will do that.

She has been trying hard to appear small, feminine, someone to be protected, because she wants to avoid the consequences, and is appealing to base instincts and others' morals to do so.  ("Would you really put a mother of a baby in jail for a non-violent crime?")

I find her actions despicable on multiple levels.  What she did is one thing.  But using calculated manipulation in the hopes of avoiding the consequences, that is another, and in my opinion, should also be punished for.  Harshly.

   You summed up my opinion of her and this entire scam perfectly.   

[fourfathom]

But if they invested money that belonged to other people, then they failed in their fiduciary responsibility and should be held financially and criminally responsible.

Yes.  This is the key element in any follow-on action.  But if the manager of other peoples money relied on representations that turned out to be false, then where does the blame ultimately lie?  I don't think we can expect each and every fund manager to employ a staff of molecular biologists to do the level of due diligence necessary to verify the validity of a cutting-edge business like Theranos.  But unless the manager has been open about the type of investments they plan to make, the manager shouldn't be investing in that class of early-stage ventures.

If I give my money to a manager of a Fortune 500 fund, I'm going to be pretty upset if I find out they invested in Theranos or FTX (crypto).

[nctnico]

This has happened before, and this will happen again.

The only thing we can do to make it happen as rarely as possible, is to make sure the punishment acts as a deterrent.

That is not going to work. Criminals will be criminals. Look at the US: highest crime rate and highest percentage of people in prison.

The only thing that is going to help is having good laws & raise awareness to prevent scams and enough people in law enforcement to go after criminals.

[SiliconWizard]

Again, if you really want this to happen less often, then you must focus not just on punishing one person while leaving all the people who participated in the whole fraud alone or even grant them the victim status.

Kids should be protected 100%. No question about that.
Adults should be held responsible of what they decide to do as long as they were not physically constrained, or unless they are *really* diagnosed as mentally disabled.

Anyone having participated in this whole Theranos mess IS liable. (Not talking about customers/patients here, but everyone else: investors, managers, even employees, at least engineers who I'm sure knew after just a couple years that something wasn't right.)

As long as we will fail to properly acknowledge responsibilities in *allowing* frauds to happen, they will. Punishing a single person (or just a very limited few) identified as a big criminal responsible of everything while the rest was merely victims is never going to work.

So sure, she should be punished according to the damage she made, but we should not focus on her IMHO. We should reflect on ourselves and asking ourselves what we can each do not to allow this to happen again.

Maybe some honesty, less greed, doing our homework/due diligence and getting some education will help.
There will always be criminals.
The question to me is, what we, non-criminals, which are actually the majority (thankfully), can do to avoid creating favorable contexts for at least certain kinds of criminality.

As a metaphor, imagine you leave your house door wide open 24/7. The probability of getting robbed would be extremely high. Would you then spend all your efforts in courts to make sure the robbers are harshly punished, while still leaving your door wide open and never recognizing you were doing something stupid, while it was pretty obvious? Would securing your house, even a little bit, not be a considerably more effective method?

[nctnico]

Again, if you really want this to happen less often, then you must focus not just on punishing one person while leaving all the people who participated in the whole fraud alone or even grant them the victim status.

Kids should be protected 100%. No question about that.
Adults should be held responsible of what they decide to do as long as they were not physically constrained, or unless they are *really* diagnosed as mentally disabled.

Also no. Financial scams or even financial consumer products can be constructed so cleverly that it takes a genius to unravel the intricate details of how a financial product that looks good on the outside still is not beneficial to the consumer. In the Netherlands several insurance companies are being sued for tens of billions of euros for selling products that should allow people to invest money into funds in order to save up money to pay for a mortgage. In reality these where life insurances with very poor ROI but this was so obfustigated that the people selling these policies didn't understand what they where selling. There is no way you can understand the inner workings of such products without having a university level degree in insurances AND having access to all the details.

Again: rules and regulation are the way out to protect the consumers.

Or let me put it differently: when you buy a banana in the store, are you going to test it for harmfull pesticides yourself or are you going to trust the government agencies that regulate production methods & import of food to make sure the bananas are safe to eat?

Ofcourse part of rules can be aimed to protect yourself properly. In the Netherlands it is mandatory to have smoke detectors installed in your home.

[Nominal Animal]

This has happened before, and this will happen again.

The only thing we can do to make it happen as rarely as possible, is to make sure the punishment acts as a deterrent.

That is not going to work. Criminals will be criminals. Look at the US: highest crime rate and highest percentage of people in prison.

She is not a typical criminal, like I said.  Besides, a single data point does not a rule make.

The only thing that is going to help is having good laws & raise awareness to prevent scams and enough people in law enforcement to go after criminals.

Good, sensible laws will definitely reduce crime, that I fully agree with.  Law enforcement needs the resources to investigate crime, absolutely.

As to raising awareness to prevent scams, that is a cultural/sociological issue, not an universal law.  If scamming was considered disgusting, it would be rarer, because most people, even criminals, are surprisingly strongly driven by social pressure.  But no matter how disgusting, there would always be some hyper-scammers like Bernie Madoff or Elizabeth Holmes –– or just about anyone in the Wikipedia notable fraudsters list –– because they are sociopaths or psychopaths, and react to social pressure (that makes "normal" people avoid crime) in a completely different way.

Thus, my point was not about crime in general.  It was specifically about these brazen fraudsters who commit to it big time and for big bucks, i.e. specifically psychopaths and sociopaths.  To give them pause, the punishment must be significant.

The way Elizabeth Holmes tried to use social manipulation to avoid a harsh punishment, is just a double "fuck you" to all law-abiding people, as a cherry on top.

[nctnico]

Thus, my point was not about crime in general.  It was specifically about these brazen fraudsters who commit to it big time and for big bucks, i.e. specifically psychopaths and sociopaths.  To give them pause, the punishment must be significant.

The way Elizabeth Holmes tried to use social manipulation to avoid a harsh punishment, is just a double "fuck you" to all law-abiding people, as a cherry on top.

I get your point but being scammed by a psychopath myself, I'm convinced that any form of punishment won't deter these kind of people. They don't even see/understand what they are doing is wrong so won't even consider any form of punishment while causing lots of damage. It is cringeworthy to see how these people speak of doing humanity a service while in reality their actions are driving people into killing themselves. IOW: you are giving psychopaths and sociopaths way too much credit. 

It would not surprise me if a video or audio fragment of Elizabeth Holmes pops up where she is still defending Theranos even after being convicted.

[Nominal Animal]

IOW: you are giving psychopaths and sociopaths way too much credit. 

It is quite possible.  After all, it is only my current understanding/belief.

It would not surprise me if a video or audio fragment of Elizabeth Holmes pops up where she is still defending Theranos even after being convicted.

You do have an excellent point there.  One of the mechanisms that allows these people to "shed" any social pressure, is the belief that they are doing the Right Thing.

However, I do not believe that is specifically a sociopathic/psychopathic feature, as it is also the way how ordinary humans shield themselves from social pressure.  Even when confronted with evidence "we told you you were wrong!" -style, people almost always defend with "Nobody could have predicted you were right!".  Bad actions are defended by "X made me do it", or "It was just an error; I'm really a good person, and would never do such an evil thing intentionally!".

(That is, I don't think it is a sign of psychopathy or sociopathy for her to do so, just typical of people refusing to take responsibility for their own actions.)

[nctnico]

Do psychopathic / sociopaths even feel social pressure? AFAIK they use it to control the world around them. Elizabeth Holmes' pregnancy is probably one of the worst examples of doing just that.

[bdunham7]

I don't think we can expect each and every fund manager to employ a staff of molecular biologists to do the level of due diligence necessary to verify the validity of a cutting-edge business like Theranos.  But unless the manager has been open about the type of investments they plan to make, the manager shouldn't be investing in that class of early-stage ventures.

If I give my money to a manager of a Fortune 500 fund, I'm going to be pretty upset if I find out they invested in Theranos or FTX (crypto).

Not at the early stages, no.  But if you have or manage a significant investment, you can and should consult with experts and demand that the company provide sufficient transparency so that you and your expert can evaluate their progress.  In the case of Bernie Madoff and I believe to an extent with Theranos, there were many investors that did ask questions, didn't get answers and just walked away.

Unfortunately, unlike Madoff and Theranos, FTX attracted a pretty good chunk of institutional investors--Kevin O'Leary, Sequoia Capital, Ontario Teachers Pension Fund (!!)  and so on that definitely should have known better IMO. When someone tells you that you can send your money to a startup in the Bahamas and get an 8% return with 'no risk', even an average dummy should have their BS detector going off at full volume.

[MikeK]

The only thing that is going to help is having good laws & raise awareness to prevent scams and enough people in law enforcement to go after criminals.

The problem is that we don't always get good laws in the US.  Corporations control a lot.  They've even been granted the same status as people via the Citizens United suit.  We can't even appropriately tax rich people.  Take a look at what our tax rates *used* to be.  One of our political parties is determined to end organized human existence.

[Stray Electron]

The only thing that is going to help is having good laws & raise awareness to prevent scams and enough people in law enforcement to go after criminals.

The problem is that we don't always get good laws in the US.  Corporations control a lot.  They've even been granted the same status as people via the Citizens United suit.  We can't even appropriately tax rich people.  Take a look at what our tax rates *used* to be.  One of our political parties is determined to end organized human existence.

  Nice political rant but none of what you're carrying on about applies to the discussion at hand.

[nctnico]

The only thing that is going to help is having good laws & raise awareness to prevent scams and enough people in law enforcement to go after criminals.

The problem is that we don't always get good laws in the US.  Corporations control a lot.  They've even been granted the same status as people via the Citizens United suit.  We can't even appropriately tax rich people.  Take a look at what our tax rates *used* to be.  One of our political parties is determined to end organized human existence.

  Nice political rant but none of what you're carrying on about applies to the discussion at hand.

Actually it does. One of the main problems that allow people to setup companies that are basically a scam is the political unwillingness to put a halt to such pratices.

[Gregg]

Poor Elisabeth feels like she is the victim here; after all she had this wonderful (but ill conceived) idea to change the world by making a miracle machine.  She hired the best talent she could find to make it happen, but in her mind it was these people that failed her. 
Similar reasoning is endemic to many con artists and charlatans.
She seems to have the financial backing to pursue leniency and will not stop until her resources are totally exhausted.  If appeals add to the sentence time and severity, maybe it will slow her down, but she will only feel more victimized with zero empathy for those she has victimized.

[MrMobodies]

I know of a family firm a bit like this with a psychopath and a sociopath.

There is a psychopath (the owner) and a sociopath (young family member).

There is a sociopath (the owner) and a psychopath (young family member). This sociopath is very paranoid and checks up on everybody finding out what they are, what they are doing but all in all seems to mean well and would try make friends with the workmen and appease everyone when possible but when things get bad they would step on anybody they can including their own family. This sociopath has this whiny voice and you'd feel sorry for them like they had a tough life and you'd want to go out of your way to help them in whatever way you can. They'd often question and say things many times in different ways where they needed a lot of reassuring.

There was driver that use to steal petrol, when he was caught one day filling up barrels on the cctv footage in the petrol station, the psychopath OOPS sociopath didn't call the police, he was telling him repeatedly that they were going to give him a pay rise and now that is being cancelled and he'll deduct the stolen petrol from his wages. The problem is, there were no pay rises ever discussed that month. They only do that when they are enticing men when they get new work contracts coming in. In fact they were talking about cutting all the men's wages as the work was drying up and less money coming in I believe they were doing this to make the driver feel bad. There were times were would accuse someone of "playing mind games", being an "emotional bully" and "passive aggressiveness" when "the family" would do exactly the same thing not just to the workmen but to each other.

Now this is where the psychopath protects the the sociopath from trouble.

Now this is where the sociopath protects the psychopath from trouble.

The psychopath would not always let their feelings be known directly. They would do things indirectly when they can through other people. If they want something they wouldn't always tell the person directly they would go to other family members to get the workmen to change plans or do other stuff. Very shy like. They would also lay the blame on others when things go wrong and get angry and defensive when proven wrong. If a joke they say backfires they get angry too and do stuff like stamp their feet and talking a low grumpy voice that the joke is on them etc.. Also nobody is allowed to fart but them as they would take great offense.

Now the sociopath on this occasion understand this psychopath fully, so when the sociopath is present and there are possible signs that this psychopath is unhappy and is about to do something outrageous like explode, scream and hurl a whole loud of abuse at the next person in the room with them, the sociopath quickly takes them away on the early signs of when they show grumpiness such as a low tone voice and negative speak and he'd tell them what is about to happen, stay away and watch them gradually explode and then task them with other work in a different part of the building.

The sociopath would always be sending the workmen to checkup on this psychopath to see if they are happy in order for the firm to run smoothly but they would have some disagreements on work times, such as coming in late and leaving early. The sociopath would not allow the psychopath from to having have lunch due to the limited hours they work but they still have their lunch when the sociopath is out of the office so the workmen or other people working in this office will be sent to checkup whether the psychopath are stopping has stopped to eat their lunch but they would know and tell them not to say anything.

Approaching this sociopath psycopath and getting direct answers out of them for things they say and don't mean, could lead them into, swearing, shouting and screaming, threatening to call the police on you, accusing you of attempting assault o them (thank for cctv they came out of a locked room they locked to point fingers and continue to make out threats.)

There was a meeting one day, speaking in high tone like when greeting someone, very nice, poured coffee out for this gentleman, provided biscuits but after the meeting and as soon as the car went past the window this psychopath stood up said "what an asshole!" in a low msierable tone. I asked "why are going you calling him an asshole for?", low tone "Oh! nothing! nothing." and sat back down.

There was one time they were auctioning this sofa on ebay, and when using other family accounts to up the bidding and they ended winning their own item, so they turned to one of real bidders offering it and I think they got reported for that. They came me to frightened that they got reported and if the police could get involved and anything I can do.

Now when things don't go to the way the psychopath wants, they'd call the dad, and the dad will have a right go at sociopath to leave them alone threatening to cancel their money they injected in the firm and their trust fund.

Does that behaviour fit the description of a psychopath and sociopath?

Sorry I noticed I have made a lot of mistakes in this post and with the editing and I did double check before posting.

Maybe something not right with me.

[Black Phoenix]

I know of a family firm a bit like this with a psychopath and a sociopath.

There is a psychopath (the owner) and a sociopath (young family member). This sociopath is very paranoid and checks up on everybody finding out what they are, what they are doing but all in all seems to mean well and would try make friends with the workmen and appease everyone when possible but when things get bad they would step on anybody they can including their own family. This sociopath has this whiny voice and you'd feel sorry for them like they had a tough life and you'd want to go out of your way to help them in whatever way you can. They'd often question and say things many times in different ways where they needed a lot of reassuring.

There was driver that use to steal petrol, when he was caught one day filling up barrels on the cctv footage in the petrol station, the psychopath didn't call the police, he was telling him repeatedly that they were going to give him a pay rise and now that is being cancelled and he'll deduct the stolen petrol from his wages. The problem is, there were no pay rises ever discussed that month. They only do that when they are enticing men when they get new work contracts coming in. In fact they were talking about cutting all the men's wages as the work was drying up and less money coming in I believe they were doing this to make the driver feel bad. There were times were would accuse someone of playing mind games, being an emotional buy and being "passive aggressive" when "the family" would do exactly the same thing not just to the workmen but to each other.

Now this is where the psychopath protects the the sociopath from trouble.

The psychopath would not always let their feelings be known directly. They would do things indirectly when they can through other people. If they want something they wouldn't always tell the person directly they would go to other family members to get the workmen to change plans or do other stuff. Very shy like. They would also lay the blame on others when things go wrong and get angry and defensive when proven wrong. If a joke they say backfires they get angry too and do stuff like stamp their feet and talking a low grumpy voice that the joke is on them etc.. Also nobody is allowed to fart but them as they would take great offense.

Now the sociopath on this occasion understand this psychopath fully, so when the sociopath is present and there are possible signs that this psychopath is unhappy and is about to do something outrageous like explode, scream and hurl a whole loud of abuse at the next person in the room with them, the sociopath quickly takes them away on the early signs of when they show grumpiness such as a low tone voice and negative speak and he'd tell them what is about to happen, stay away and watch them gradually explode and then task them with other work in a different part of the building.

The sociopath would always be sending the workmen to checkup on this psychopath to see if they are happy in order for the firm to run smoothly but they would have some disagreements on work times, such as coming in late and leaving early. The sociopath would not allow psychopath from having lunch due to the limited hours they work but they still have their lunch when the sociopath is out of the office so the workmen or other people working in this office will be sent to checkup whether the psychopath are stopping to ear their lunch but they would know and tell them not to say anything.

Approaching this sociopath and getting direct answers out of them for things they say and don't mean, could lead them into, swearing, shouting and screaming, threatening to call the police on you, accusing you of attempting assault o them (thank for cctv they came out of a locked room they locked to point fingers and continue to make out threats.)

There was a meeting one day, speaking in high tone like when greeting someone, very nice, poured coffee out for this gentleman, provided biscuits but after the meeting and as soon as the car went past the window this psychopath stood up said "what an asshole!" in a low msierable tone. I asked "why are going you calling him an asshole for?", low tone "Oh! nothing! nothing." and sat back down.

There was one time they were auctioning this sofa on ebay, and when using other family accounts to up the bidding and they ended winning their own item, so they turned to one of real bidders offering it and I think they got reported for that. They came me to frightened that they got reported and if the police could get involved and anything I can do.

Now when things don't go to the way the psychopath wants, they'd call the dad, and the dad will have a right go at sociopath to leave them alone threatening to cancel their money they injected in the firm and their trust fund.

Does that behaviour fit the description of a psychopath and sociopath?

I only have one thing to say, stay away, very far away...

[MikeK]

I only have one thing to say, stay away, very far away...

Beat poet/writer William S. Burroughs had a "song" titled "Words of Advice For Young People".  In it he says "Avoid all fuckups...anything they have anything to do with winds up a disaster."  The trouble is, figuring out who the fuckups are *before* you're affected.

[Stray Electron]

I know of a family firm a bit like this with a psychopath and a sociopath.

There is a psychopath (the owner) and a sociopath (young family member). This sociopath is very paranoid and checks up on everybody finding out what they are, what they are doing but all in all seems to mean well and would try make friends with the workmen and appease everyone when possible but when things get bad they would step on anybody they can including their own family. This sociopath has this whiny voice and you'd feel sorry for them like they had a tough life and you'd want to go out of your way to help them in whatever way you can. They'd often question and say things many times in different ways where they needed a lot of reassuring.

There was driver that use to steal petrol, when he was caught one day filling up barrels on the cctv footage in the petrol station, the psychopath didn't call the police, he was telling him repeatedly that they were going to give him a pay rise and now that is being cancelled and he'll deduct the stolen petrol from his wages. The problem is, there were no pay rises ever discussed that month. They only do that when they are enticing men when they get new work contracts coming in. In fact they were talking about cutting all the men's wages as the work was drying up and less money coming in I believe they were doing this to make the driver feel bad. There were times were would accuse someone of playing mind games, being an emotional buy and being "passive aggressive" when "the family" would do exactly the same thing not just to the workmen but to each other.

Now this is where the psychopath protects the the sociopath from trouble.

The psychopath would not always let their feelings be known directly. They would do things indirectly when they can through other people. If they want something they wouldn't always tell the person directly they would go to other family members to get the workmen to change plans or do other stuff. Very shy like. They would also lay the blame on others when things go wrong and get angry and defensive when proven wrong. If a joke they say backfires they get angry too and do stuff like stamp their feet and talking a low grumpy voice that the joke is on them etc.. Also nobody is allowed to fart but them as they would take great offense.

Now the sociopath on this occasion understand this psychopath fully, so when the sociopath is present and there are possible signs that this psychopath is unhappy and is about to do something outrageous like explode, scream and hurl a whole loud of abuse at the next person in the room with them, the sociopath quickly takes them away on the early signs of when they show grumpiness such as a low tone voice and negative speak and he'd tell them what is about to happen, stay away and watch them gradually explode and then task them with other work in a different part of the building.

The sociopath would always be sending the workmen to checkup on this psychopath to see if they are happy in order for the firm to run smoothly but they would have some disagreements on work times, such as coming in late and leaving early. The sociopath would not allow psychopath from having lunch due to the limited hours they work but they still have their lunch when the sociopath is out of the office so the workmen or other people working in this office will be sent to checkup whether the psychopath are stopping to ear their lunch but they would know and tell them not to say anything.

Approaching this sociopath and getting direct answers out of them for things they say and don't mean, could lead them into, swearing, shouting and screaming, threatening to call the police on you, accusing you of attempting assault o them (thank for cctv they came out of a locked room they locked to point fingers and continue to make out threats.)

There was a meeting one day, speaking in high tone like when greeting someone, very nice, poured coffee out for this gentleman, provided biscuits but after the meeting and as soon as the car went past the window this psychopath stood up said "what an asshole!" in a low msierable tone. I asked "why are going you calling him an asshole for?", low tone "Oh! nothing! nothing." and sat back down.

There was one time they were auctioning this sofa on ebay, and when using other family accounts to up the bidding and they ended winning their own item, so they turned to one of real bidders offering it and I think they got reported for that. They came me to frightened that they got reported and if the police could get involved and anything I can do.

Now when things don't go to the way the psychopath wants, they'd call the dad, and the dad will have a right go at sociopath to leave them alone threatening to cancel their money they injected in the firm and their trust fund.

Does that behaviour fit the description of a psychopath and sociopath?

I only have one thing to say, stay away, very far away...

  I agree with BP, stay far far away!  I used to have to deal with people like that but I eventually decided that they were more trouble than they were worth (even some family members). So I simply started avoiding them and today my life is much quieter, much simpler and I get a lot more of my own projects done.  Life's too short to deal with idiots, Social Justice Warriors, psychopaths and sociopaths. Learn to avoid them.

[MrMobodies]

I tried to please everybody but I find I wasn't really helping them at all but getting them in more trouble.

For example, one time I was asked to automate some formulas on this spreadsheet to calculate the days spent from start to stop per job from this council. So I did that and they were all around the desk watching whilst this council person was explaining what he wanted me to do to the spreadsheet. So I filled in the columns that night.

A couple of weeks later the council person was asking me on the phone why the formulas in that column were missing and some with the 3 digit numbers were in there and he was not happy. The sociopath knew nothing apart from that there something wrong with the sheet and tried to blame me saying it was my fault and I was fixing it. So I restored all the formula's. I said we all make mistakes from time to time.

Some days later the psychopath asks me about me removing the figures they put in (where the formulas were to calculate the total days spent). The "psychopath" was the one inputting the data and is was their job to input and manage this spreadsheet.

They tried to blame me on that too saying I never told them about those formulas and they didn't understand, I said look you were all over me listening to what he wanted me to and watching everything I was doing.

Then the sociopath tells me the truth, "this is where honesty is not always the best policy mate etc.." they are capped at 15 days per job (use to be 20 days) and it is taking them between 20 to 40 days and if we don't make it look like we are within the cap they won't give us anymore work etc.

Anyway they asked me to "restore their lies" no problem I found a backup copy of the fabricated figures and they filled in the rest. I said next time, I'll generate the formula and you apply it and I'll teach you how to apply it so you are in control.

The sociopath told me everything was fine it was all over nothing to worry about and to stop being paranoid. I told them it is not fine, you are just buying time now that they know those formulas were removed.

The following Monday morning the sociopath was on the phone to this council man on the speaker phone and he did not sound  happy. I heard him briefly say as I was walked past "No more lying... no more lying!!!... you can't keep on lying to us and we're already being lenient with you ... etc"

I heard they got a little fine for it and that was it.

They loved their internet radio, the thing is they would have it loud and be on the phone engaged and it would be rude interrupting them when I couldn't think or hear calls I pickup (not sure how they can hear being so load and close).

I provided this stereo system, speakers, computer (internet radio), amplifier, sound cards a mixer and stations can changed via shortcuts, or itunes via (shairport) a floating volume slider (opensource thing I found on every desktop so they can turn it down if it is loud and a phone call comes in.

They'd bicker fight over that as well. One of them (another family member) says "It's like blooming disco in here can't we turn it down... I said you can do it via that slider on the desktop so they did). The sociopath in a whiny 'feel sorry for voice' across the room said, "It's my office!, my office mate, I own the building they don't, I can turn up and down..." so he turned it up really loud and the response from this other family member, "can't you disconnect that speaker", I said it will be half stereo or mono, replied "what's mono?". Week later "Why can't we have a little FM radio like every shop down this street. I said we did have one before and it was better turned off... As soon as the air conditioning came on next door we could hear it when buses go past we can hear it. (Before this persons time working there). Response I got "It is NOT! democratic." I said "It IS! democratic, you can turn it off, you can change radio stations, turn the volume up and down from any computer but it is between you lot to negotiate in between yourselves what you want.

One day I wired that sociopaths house up with network cable when they moved in. The wifi router would not go far and internal phone cable was causing trouble which I sorted out. There was a flood and an opportunity when they took the floors up to do it but I only knew late when they just about finishing the decorations. I provided each room with it's own access points and some network sockets to a switch but the difficulty I faced. The sociopath said... "Look mate, you ripping me 'house to bits" and "internet will never be good... it will never be good mate" I said well when it does become good, you won't have the infrastructure to support it.

They wanted be in the sky with nothing to support them.

I thought I find out what they wanted, find solutions to systematic issues, tried to make it as ideal as I could by thinking ahead but how wrong was I. They didn't understand and didn't seem to want to. I understand it was busy there but I felt so under appreciated.

I think that is the way they are and the treat each other like that but they seem very successful at what the do, the sociopath has this gift and skill. He knows when people are being dishonest and laughing behind his back and he'll say to everyone what is about to happen and to watch.

I don't intend to work for a family firm after that but I know not every family firm is going to be like that.

Back to Elizabeth Holmes.

https://news.sky.com/story/elizabeth-holmes-has-ambition-to-rise-again-despite-being-jailed-over-theranos-case-that-gripped-world-12750541

Elizabeth Holmes 'has ambition to rise again' despite being jailed over Theranos case ...
By Tom Acres, technology reporter
Saturday 19 November 2022 06:28, UK

"It's a bad bet to assume this is the last we've heard from Elizabeth Holmes," she told Sky News.
"She has the ambition to rise again and to do more.
...
 "I have reporting from a handful of sources who were not part of the lawsuit, who lost money in this story, but who ultimately have said they would back her again if she came back with a new idea."

Sources but which ones? After all the damage she has done and these faceless 'sources' are still backing her.
Shouldn't they be naming and shaming these sources?

So these so called sources 'would' back her again but I wonder with whose money, their own or other people's where the sources have influences in finding the gullible backers. Sounds to me like she has good connections into getting her opportunities and things.

[fourfathom]

https://news.sky.com/story/elizabeth-holmes-has-ambition-to-rise-again-despite-being-jailed-over-theranos-case-that-gripped-world-12750541
 "I have reporting from a handful of sources who were not part of the lawsuit, who lost money in this story, but who ultimately have said they would back her again if she came back with a new idea."

That sounds like something somebody who didn't want to admit that they had made a very stupid investment would say.  Or doesn't want to give lawsuit ammunition to the people who gave them money to invest.

[james_s]

Do psychopathic / sociopaths even feel social pressure? AFAIK they use it to control the world around them. Elizabeth Holmes' pregnancy is probably one of the worst examples of doing just that.

I don't think they do. I have dealt with a few people with BPD and a few others that I suspect have NPD although there is a lot of overlap of the symptoms of various disorders. BPD and NPD (Borderline and Narcissistic personality disorders) are particularly troublesome because these people create an alternate reality in their head to explain the way they feel, and to them that reality is the literal truth. They are very impulsive, essentially perpetual toddlers at an emotional level, the impact to others of their actions literally do not matter AT ALL, it is all about their wants and desires in the moment. They will lie, deflect and project, even in the face of irrefutable evidence. The vast majority of them believe they are completely fine and everyone else around them is crazy.

[tszaboo]

Do psychopathic / sociopaths even feel social pressure? AFAIK they use it to control the world around them. Elizabeth Holmes' pregnancy is probably one of the worst examples of doing just that.

I don't think they do. I have dealt with a few people with BPD and a few others that I suspect have NPD although there is a lot of overlap of the symptoms of various disorders. BPD and NPD (Borderline and Narcissistic personality disorders) are particularly troublesome because these people create an alternate reality in their head to explain the way they feel, and to them that reality is the literal truth. They are very impulsive, essentially perpetual toddlers at an emotional level, the impact to others of their actions literally do not matter AT ALL, it is all about their wants and desires in the moment. They will lie, deflect and project, even in the face of irrefutable evidence. The vast majority of them believe they are completely fine and everyone else around them is crazy.

Yeah, they do. Someone with NPD might feel extreme social pressure to be admired, and to be perceived as the best. Not all, but I think it's a type of NPD. Honestly, its just the best to avoid these people altogether, and cut them out from your life. Or be prepared to have constant emotional drain on you, or source of anger. It's scary, that the so-called "dark triad"  is like 3% in the population, and you are guaranteed to meet people like this. And some people with their behavior invite these to prey on them. Learning how to identify and control this is like the most important soft skill that I learned as an adult, because they are absolutely going to wreck your life if you let them.

[tom66]

I don't think they do. I have dealt with a few people with BPD and a few others that I suspect have NPD although there is a lot of overlap of the symptoms of various disorders. BPD and NPD (Borderline and Narcissistic personality disorders) are particularly troublesome because these people create an alternate reality in their head to explain the way they feel, and to them that reality is the literal truth. They are very impulsive, essentially perpetual toddlers at an emotional level, the impact to others of their actions literally do not matter AT ALL, it is all about their wants and desires in the moment. They will lie, deflect and project, even in the face of irrefutable evidence. The vast majority of them believe they are completely fine and everyone else around them is crazy.

Yup.  Narcissists are scary, and I'm unfortunate to know a couple.  Seriously the best thing anyone can do is to completely ignore them, if they are e.g. part of your family.  Don't argue, don't accept.  Just ignore.   No phone calls.  No social contacts.  If they talk to you, just give them the most minimal acknowledgement.   It's a lot harder to deal with if they're your boss or colleague.  Get out if you can in that case.

[nctnico]

BTW: It turns out Hulu has a video (TV no longer exists in my world) series about Elizabeth Holmes called 'The Dropout'.

[HighVoltage]

BTW: It turns out Hulu has a video (TV no longer exists in my world) series about Elizabeth Holmes called 'The Dropout'.

Definitely a good recommendation, I just watched all episodes.

It is fascinating of how she was able to fool so many people, especially people in high political positions.
I mean the politicians lie to us all the time and finally they got some of their own medicine.

The real story of Theranos and E.Holmes is tragic and amusing at the same time.

[Stray Electron]

The only thing that is going to help is having good laws & raise awareness to prevent scams and enough people in law enforcement to go after criminals.

The problem is that we don't always get good laws in the US.  Corporations control a lot.  They've even been granted the same status as people via the Citizens United suit.  We can't even appropriately tax rich people.  Take a look at what our tax rates *used* to be.  One of our political parties is determined to end organized human existence.

  Nice political rant but none of what you're carrying on about applies to the discussion at hand.

Actually it does. One of the main problems that allow people to setup companies that are basically a scam is the political unwillingness to put a halt to such pratices.

   You can't be serious!  Every state in the US and the US federal government all already have laws banning such practices.  Or did you miss the reason that we're even having this discussion?   I defy you to name one thing named in MikeK's rant that could have or would have absolutely prevented Holme's scheme.

   The real failure in this scheme was the same as in any other Con job. The "Victims" were greedy and thought that they could make a fast profit and didn't do their due diligence.   Yes, Holme's lies set up the situation, just like the lies that any Con man makes in order to set their trap; but it was the "victims" greed that made the whole scheme work.

[fourfathom]

The "Victims" were greedy and thought that they could make a fast profit and didn't do their due diligence.

It's likely that the investor "victims" initially "wanted to believe", and were were thinking that the success of Therenos relied on traditional Silicon Valley factors: the chips always get bigger/faster/cheaper, and software can do anything.  That, and the fact that the founder was a woman, which gave the investors major social brownie-points and diverted any traditional criticism.

The thing is, when the wheels started to fall off due to laws of physics, the investors should have pulled the plug.  Even better, they should have obtained / listened to advice from true experts in the field before investing more than just exploratory funds.

[PlainName]

The "Victims" were greedy and thought that they could make a fast profit and didn't do their due diligence.

The only reason anyone invests in anything is to make more money than otherwise. Literally, any investor is after making a fast profit. Some just play a bit safer than others, but ultimately it's all a risk. It's great to say they should have done due diligence (isn't this a favourite Internet meme, alongside 'do your own research') but just how far do they go? It's unsurprising that current experts say it's a scam, but then anything new turning up would be seen as the same (otherwise it'd already be done, right?). Did the space experts say Musk wouldn't be able to beat NASA to space taxis, or flood the entire world with satellite broadband? There are many examples where experts were suspicious of a startup but got shown it could be done after all.

Serious investors have their fingers in many pies - some you win, some your lose, and hopefully the wins counter the losses - and I seriously doubt that Thernanos diddling them out of some funds had them end up on the street. But that's no reason not to complain and at least try to get something out of it. Does it really matter, except to other whiners, that they believed what they were told? It's victim-blaming to be trashing them and, in effect, reducing the to opprobrium attached to the actual perpetrators of a scam.

[Nominal Animal]

The "Victims" were greedy and thought that they could make a fast profit and didn't do their due diligence.

The only reason anyone invests in anything is to make more money than otherwise. Literally, any investor is after making a fast profit.

No, not "fast", assuming you mean "fast" == "short term".

For example, pension fund investors better look at maximizing long term profits, instead of short term profits.

The worst kind of investors are high-frequency traders.  They really are trying to maximize short term profits, and care not a whit about whether the system can handle it or not.  In my opinion, HFT should absolutely be banned.

[MrMobodies]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11463257/Judge-recommends-pregnant-Elizabeth-Holmes-sent-minimum-security-prison-camp-TEXAS.html

Judge recommends Elizabeth Holmes is sent to minimum-security prison camp in TEXAS - 1,800 miles from her family in California - where the pregnant Theranos fraudster will have access to tennis courts and a running track

Holmes was sentenced last Friday to 11.25 years in prison following her conviction of fraud for her role peddling bad medical technology at Theranos
The disgraced 38-year-old tech entrepreneur is now pregnant with her second child and was hoping for an 18-month at home sentence
Judge Edward Davila has recommended that Holmes serve her sentence at a minimum-security women's prison in Bryan, Texas
The facility is 1,800 miles from her California-based family, which could make visitation difficult
By SOPHIE MANN FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

PUBLISHED: 22:14, 23 November 2022 | UPDATED: 22:14, 23 November 2022



A federal judge has recommended that Theranos Inc. founder and convicted fraudster Elizabeth Holmes serve her more than 11-year prison sentence in a minimum-security prison camp in Texas.

Holmes, who was sentenced on Friday, was told by US District Judge Edward Davila that her failure to accept responsibility for her crime would count against her. Despite being pregnant with her second child, she was subsequently sentenced to more than a decade behind bars and ordered to surrender in April. It is unknown how far along Holmes is, but she will, in all likelihood, give birth prior to her reporting date of April 27, 2023.

Davila has now recommended that Holmes be allowed family visitation at the low security camp, though she will be more than 1,800 miles away from her California-based partner, child and parents. The prison camp the judge recommended is in Bryan, Texas, about 100 miles north of Houston, where Holmes attended high school. It is designated for female inmates and currently houses about 540 inmates.Those serving time at the facility are allowed to accept multiple visitors on weekends.

According to the Wall Street Journal, the facility bares similarities to the one in West Virginia where Martha Stewart served time close to 20 years ago - the same one where former NXIVM president Nancy Salzman is now serving her three-and-a-half year sentence.

Holmes will have access to tennis courts and a running track. But, she will be forced to give up her signature all-black look in exchange for pastel green, gray and white outfits. Distance may make visitation hard for Holmes' family, whom she would be much closer to were she sent to the minimum-security prison in Dublin, California, which is just an hour drive outside of San Francisco. Actresses Lori Loughlin and Felicity Huffman, who were involved in the college admissions scandal, both served their short sentences ay the Dublin facility.

Holmes and her legal team were given 14 days to appeal the sentence. Her attorneys said they would seek to let her stay out of prison on bail pending the outcome of the appeal.

The judge will later hold a hearing determining how much money she will have to repay.

Federal prosecutors have also said that Holmes could receive close to a 15% reduction on prison time with good behavior, which would put her sentence at closer to 9.5 years with no possibility for parole.

In January, Holmes, 38, was convicted by a jury of four counts of criminal fraud for deceiving investors during her years long scheme to peddle bad blood testing technology at Theranos.

Following her conviction, Holmes became pregnant with her second child, which conservative commentator Megyn Kelly said she did in order to 'get less prison time.'

'I hate to agree with the Twitter mob, but they're angry about the pregnancy, suggesting she did that [on purpose],' Kelly said on her SiriusXM podcast Monday, when discussing Holmes' 11-year prison sentence.

Kelly said she understands 'the theory she did that for sympathy. 'She did that intentionally on the gamble that the judge would say, 'I won't throw the book at you for the sake of this child.'' But now, Kelly said, 'that child is going to be without its mother for the first 11 years of his or her life.' The host continued, 'You know that you're likely to go to prison, you know the odds of getting 18 months' house arrest are nil. No one's going to get that who committed these crimes and got convicted of them. 'I just don't understand. You get pregnant anyway?' she asked, rhetorically, noting: 'I, too, feel angry about it. 'I don't want to presume the motives, but the whole situation is a disaster.' Aiding Kelly's theory was the tech fraudster's legal team, which argued that Holmes deserved more lenient treatment because she is now a devoted mother.

During sentencing last week, Davila called the case 'troubling on so many levels.' 'Was there a loss of a moral compass here? The tragedy of this case is Ms. Holmes is brilliant.   'Failure is normal. But failure by fraud is not OK. What is the pathology of fraud? Is it the inability to accept responsibility? Perhaps that the cautionary tale to come from this case.' Addressing the court Holmes broke down in tears, saying: 'I stand before you taking responsibility for Theranos. I loved Theranos. It was my life's work.

'There are so many things I would do differently if I had the chance. I tried to realize my dream too quickly. Yesterday I tried to change the world. Today, I'm wise, and want to change myself.'  Holmes' husband, hotel group heir Billy Evans begged for mercy for his partner, citing the couple's young son and the baby on the way. The sentence imposed by U.S. District Judge Edward Davila was shorter than the 15-year penalty requested by federal prosecutors but far tougher than the leniency her legal team sought for the mother of a year-old son with another child on the way.

Well that's a start but low security and sports like a field day?


Looks to me like the mother in law doesn't seem to look very happy but more like angry at her in that photo and she's all smiling.

I wonder what is her next course of action going to be:
1: Reappeal sentence.
2: Delay the court even more by asking the prosecutors for things that they have to wait for like documents.
3  Ask for sentence to be quashed.
4: Have another baby
Goto 1:

[SiliconWizard]

Meanwhile, scam startups are continuing to flourish all over the place, as we can see in the dodgy tech section (which probably covers only 1% of them all) and all attention is on Elizabeth Holmes.

[james_s]

Meanwhile, scam startups are continuing to flourish all over the place, as we can see in the dodgy tech section (which probably covers only 1% of them all) and all attention is on Elizabeth Holmes.

This thread is all about Elizabeth Holmes, there are plenty of other threads for other scams. Also this one has recent activity, people will soon move on to something else.

[rsjsouza]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11463257/Judge-recommends-pregnant-Elizabeth-Holmes-sent-minimum-security-prison-camp-TEXAS.html

Well, considering that a ton of people are moving to Texas and away from  the s***hole that several capital cities of California are becoming, I wouldn’t be surprised they are actually welcoming this move...

[Nominal Animal]

Meanwhile, scam startups are continuing to flourish all over the place, as we can see in the dodgy tech section (which probably covers only 1% of them all) and all attention is on Elizabeth Holmes.

All attention?  This is just a single thread, innit?

I like when Dave, BigClive, DiodesGoneWild, AvE, and others expose dodgy tech, bad tools, bad engineering, in a fun to watch manner on Youtube.
Not only because it is fun to watch, but because they all ridicule the dodgy tech attempts.  That is good: ridicule is better than anger; more useful, too, I guess.

As to other media, there is very little to no news anymore, it's all social media and emotive opinionated "reporting".  What they focus on is arbitrary and insane in any case.  So if you're referring to those, I don't care; they're mostly feces anyway.

[MrMobodies]

I like when Dave, BigClive, DiodesGoneWild, AvE, and others expose dodgy tech, bad tools, bad engineering, in a fun to watch manner on Youtube.
Not only because it is fun to watch, but because they all ridicule the dodgy tech attempts.  That is good: ridicule is better than anger; more useful, too, I guess.

As to other media, there is very little to no news anymore, it's all social media and emotive opinionated "reporting". What they focus on is arbitrary and insane in any case.  So if you're referring to those, I don't care; they're mostly feces anyway.

Just like this opinion from that judge that sentenced her:

During sentencing last week, Davila called the case 'troubling on so many levels.' 'Was there a loss of a moral compass here? The tragedy of this case is Ms. Holmes is brilliant .
...
The sentence imposed by U.S. District Judge Edward Davila was shorter than the 15-year penalty requested by federal prosecutors *but far tougher than the leniency her legal team sought for the mother of a year-old son with another child on the way

Brilliant at work or brilliant at dishonesty?

Judge calling her "brilliant"? after everything she has done and the lying?
I think she got to that judge and influenced her.
What do you think?

*Since when does a "legal team" or defense have a say in the sentencing?

[Nominal Animal]

Brilliant at work or brilliant at dishonesty?

Brilliant as in "the Brillant Paula bean", if you ask me.  (No typo.)

What do you call people who are so good at bullshitting other people, that even when those people find out they've been told only lies, still believe the bullshitter is a brilliant person?  I've met many such.  Finance and sales are full of them.  Many, if not most, "celebrated" software developers are such.

"Brilliant" is as good a word as any, I guess.  Just like anything that has "nano" or "quantum" or "enterprise" in its name.

[MrMobodies]

Holmes effectively RUNNING the court:

https://nypost.com/2022/11/23/judge-recommends-cushy-prison-camp-for-elizabeth-holmes/

Judge recommends cushy prison ‘camp’ with ‘no walls, bars, or fences’ for Elizabeth Holmes
By Olivia Land November 23, 2022 3:30pm
At first glance the recommendation might seem strange, considering Holmes lived and ran her company out of northern California. However, Bloomberg spoke with a criminal defense lawyer who said Holmes’ attorneys likely requested the facility.

During sentencing last week, Davila called the case 'troubling on so many levels.' 'Was there a loss of a moral compass here? The tragedy of this case is Ms. Holmes is brilliant.   'Failure is normal. But failure by fraud is not OK. What is the pathology of fraud? Is it the inability to accept responsibility? Perhaps that the cautionary tale to come from this case.' Addressing the court Holmes broke down in tears, saying: 'I stand before you taking responsibility for Theranos. I loved Theranos. It was my life's work.

Joke: It is IS okay and perfectly fine because she is "brilliant" but because she got caught, it is a tragedy and I'll send her to a comfy prison with creature comforts where she do can what she likes.

The facility’s handbook boasts of the board games, movie nights and correspondence courses available to inmates. All inmates are also required to work, and receive an hourly wage between 12 cents and $1.15

I wonder is she will start doing business on the ouside from inside the prison with "no walls, bars or fences" of course earning hundreds times more than that.

“The Court finds that family visitation enhances rehabilitation,” Davila wrote.

I heard of a term for that, swining the children around to get things?

Prosecutors are also seeking $804 million in restitution to investors – including bigwigs like software mogul Larry Ellison and the Walton family of Walmart – who funded Theranos.

I don't think they would be happy.

A hearing to determine how much Holmes will have to pay will take place in December. She is also expected to appeal her sentence, which she must do within two weeks of her initial sentencing date.

Here we go again.

Let see what step she is at. She is having another baby so back to step 1:

1: Reappeal sentence.
2: Delay the court even more by asking the prosecutors for things that they have to wait for like documents.
3  Ask for sentence to be quashed.
4: Have another baby
Goto 1:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/11/25/elizabeth-holmes-could-stay-out-of-prison-for-a-year-or-more-legal-experts/

Elizabeth Holmes could stay out of prison for a year or more: legal experts
Judge recommends Theranos founder go to prison camp in Texas
By ETHAN BARON | ebaron@bayareanewsgroup.com | Bay Area News Group
PUBLISHED: November 25, 2022 at 7:30 a.m. | UPDATED: November 25, 2022 at 5:09 p.m

When Judge Edward Davila sentenced Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes to more than 11 years in prison last week, he ordered that she surrender for imprisonment April 27. But legal experts say Holmes could remain free well past that date.

After Davila sentenced Holmes, 38, on four counts of felony fraud, one of her lawyers in the courtroom told him her legal team planned to file a “motion for bail pending appeal” that would allow her to stay out of custody while she appeals the jury’s verdict.

Sounds like beggars belief to me.

Holmes has remained free for the duration of her four-year criminal case; therefore, it’s unlikely Davila or the 9th Circuit federal appeals court that will hear her appeal would decide she’s a flight risk or threat to the public, and deny her motion for bail pending appeal on either basis, legal experts said

So trying to use this as a bearing whether she is a risk to the public to try and give her something like a suspended sentence but wait she wants to reappeal.

Holmes could also ask Davila to delay her surrender date, based for example on possible pregnancy complications or needs of her coming newborn, Cohen said.

So that would be step 4 and would be interesting to see when she starts steps 2 and 3.

1: Reappeal sentence.
2: Delay the court even more by asking the prosecutors for things that they have to wait for like documents.
3  Ask for sentence to be quashed.
4: Have another baby
Goto 1:

Article seems to get to the point:
https://news.yahoo.com/heres-how-elizabeth-holmes-may-try-to-avoid-prison-as-long-as-possible-142409334.html

Here's how Elizabeth Holmes may try to avoid prison as long as possible
Alexis Keenan·Reporter Mon, November 21, 2022, 2:24 PM·5 min read

Elizabeth Holmes has at least one more opportunity to stay out of prison after a judge on Friday sentenced the once-aspiring biotech entrepreneur to 11 years and three months behind bars for defrauding a group of investors in her collapsed blood-testing startup, Theranos.
 Holmes’ freedom is dependent upon an expected appeal of her case, which her lawyers must file within two weeks. Once an appeal is filed, Holmes can request to remain out of custody while her appeal is considered by the 9th Circuit Court of appeals.

George Demos, a former prosecutor for the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, says there’s “no doubt” the fallen Silicon Valley superstar will file an appeal. Only after that request — along with a request to remain free during its penance — will it be clear whether she will begin serving out the sentence Davila handed down.

So whether or not she reports to prison on April 27 remains to be seen,” Demos said. Still, avoiding incarceration altogether is an uphill battle.

First, she would need to persuade Judge Edward Davila – who decided her sentence and presided over her trial — as well as the trial of her codefendant Ramesh “Sunny” Balwani — that she deserves to stay out of custody while her appeal plays out in the higher court. If judge Davila rejects such a request, Holmes can appeal to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, which is empowered to decide if she must report to prison or remain free as it considers the merits of appeal.

Second, she would need to prevail in her appeal. Even the appellate court cannot overturn Davila’s sentence, unless it finds that he miscalculated Holmes’ punishment under the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines. On the first point, Kyle Clark, a criminal defense lawyer with Baker Botts said it’s difficult to predict how Davila would respond to a request by Holmes for continued freedom. “If there's an appeal, sometimes they'll keep the people out [of prison] pending appeal, and sometimes they put them in jail, even though there's an appeal pending,” Clark said.

To make that decision Judge Davila would be tasked with considering many of the same factors that determined whether to permit Holmes to remain on bail following her indictment and into her sentence, such as whether or not her crime involved violence, her lack of criminal history, and whether she’s a flight risk. “The judge may be amenable to sentencing her, but holding her at bay while her appeal grinds away,” Clark said. “Though the government's position on that is important, too.”

Clark said he expects that prosecutors would stress that the long process of an appeal could delay Holmes for years from serving out her sentence. “That’s one of the things the government is going to say — that she should go to jail while the appeal is pending,” Clark said. “Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.”

Grounds for appeal
What grounds Holmes may raise to justify an appeal remain uncertain.

Appeals can be based on rulings on testimony and evidence, whether the judge’s rulings during the course of the actual trial are consistent, and whether Holmes was granted or denied the opportunity to put in any exculpatory evidence. However, Clark and other attorneys who talked with Yahoo Finance say Holmes’ chances for the appellate court to overturn the jury’s verdicts or Davila’s sentence are slim given Davila’s close management of the case, which helped to preserve a fair trial.

“The judge tried this case very carefully,” Jacob Frenkel, a white-collar criminal defense attorney, told Yahoo Finance in January immediately after the jury returned its verdicts following seven days of deliberations. “It's unlikely that an appeal would result in changing the sentence.”

Frenkel also pointed out that Holmes, in taking the stand during her trial, may have contributed to sealing her fate on appeal. “The fact is, Elizabeth Holmes testified. That was a gambit,” he said. “And ultimately, the jury made its decision in large part based on whether it did or did not believe Elizabeth Holmes. So I think the appeal is going to be tough sledding for the defense.”

After reading Holmes’ sentence to a packed courtroom on Friday, Davila said he would also afford Holmes another five months out of custody before April 27 when she’s required to surrender to incarceration. Holmes, 38, is now pregnant with her second child. “It’s significant,” Demos said, highlighting that Judge Davila actually made note of the five-month timeframe. “* I believe that’s designed to afford her the opportunity to give birth outside of prison, which is a compassionate and humane thing to do. And hopefully that leads to reforms throughout our prison process.”

How much time will Holmes serve?
If Holmes does file an appeal and fails to persuade Davila or the appellate court to undo what’s done, Demos says she’ll likely have little choice but to serve most of the sentence that Davila handed down. Provisions within the federal sentencing guidelines do include the possibility for early release based on good behavior.

“Whether or not she serves 11 years remains to be seen, but I would suspect she’d serve a substantial portion of that,” he said.

Alexis Keenan is a legal reporter for Yahoo Finance.

* So they designed it on passionate grounds to allow her to give birth outside prison but she's just using it to start appeals and delay the court and the jail sentence every step of the way.

[SiliconWizard]

Brilliant at work or brilliant at dishonesty?

Brilliant as in "the Brillant Paula bean", if you ask me.  (No typo.)

What do you call people who are so good at bullshitting other people, that even when those people find out they've been told only lies, still believe the bullshitter is a brilliant person?  I've met many such.  Finance and sales are full of them.  Many, if not most, "celebrated" software developers are such.

"Brilliant" is as good a word as any, I guess.  Just like anything that has "nano" or "quantum" or "enterprise" in its name.

Uh... that's a pretty common behavior. People that have been bullshitted and the truth finally comes out, many will tend to prefer considering that the person was extremely talented rather than consider that they have been stoopid all along. (Or admit that was just greed, or whatever reason that made them shut their eyes even when things were already pretty obvious.)

[TimFox]

"The Talented Mr. Ripley" is a 1955 psychological thriller novel by Patricia Highsmith, more recently made into a film.

[Buriedcode]

Uh... that's a pretty common behavior. People that have been bullshitted and the truth finally comes out, many will tend to prefer considering that the person was extremely talented rather than consider that they have been stoopid all along. (Or admit that was just greed, or whatever reason that made them shut their eyes even when things were already pretty obvious.)

It is far easier to fool someone than convince them they have been fooled.  The easiest ones to fool are those who believe themselves immune to being played, and saldy, the older one gets, the more prone to that we are.

[jmelson]

Something that I have looked for, but never found, is whether Theranos actually had some prototype machine that sort-of worked at doing some rapid tests.  I knoiw that doing 60+ tests on two drops of blood on blotter paper in 2 minutes was a REALLY big stretch, and most likely not achievable.  But, did they actually have something that partly worked, or did EVERYBODY there know it was all a huge scam?
I suspect people that know are tight-lipped to cover their backsides, but anybody know?
Jon

[Nominal Animal]

But, did they actually have something that partly worked, or did EVERYBODY there know it was all a huge scam?

There is a theoretical background to all this, so that we could say it is "simply" an engineering problem.

For example, you can use standard CMOS manufacturing methods to create a silicon chip to optically detect certain antibodies, as described in this paper from 2009.

To me, the fact that their lead scientist demanded more time, and when Holmes still went into full marketing mode, killed himself, describes the gist of the situation.
As I understand it, they had a theoretical model of how it might be doable, but just could not find any way to convert that theoretical model to a functional device, except for what already exists on the market.

Thing is, Holmes knew they didn't have a device, and the way the scientists demanded lots and lots more time to develop such a device, she was well aware that she was on top of a great big scam, and just didn't want to lose the financial benefits and rewards and publicity she was getting.

[fourfathom]

There's a grey zone between "fake it until you make it" and "scam while you can".  I think Theranos was well into scam-land.  Holmes had her labs set up with commercial test gear, but claimed they were using the Theranos-designed equipment.

Sometimes faking it is perhaps justified, as long as you see a clear path to actual successful implementation of what you've been promising.  But it's much better to not fake it, and smart investors will accept some amount of failure and setback during the process.  And smart investors will manage the amount of investment during this early development phase.  But Theranos and the investors were obviously not smart in this case.

[MikeK]

Thing is, Holmes knew they didn't have a device, and the way the scientists demanded lots and lots more time to develop such a device, she was well aware that she was on top of a great big scam, and just didn't want to lose the financial benefits and rewards and publicity she was getting.

I think it's very telling that she tried to get into a grad research program while still an undergrad.  She wasn't interested in learning the science in the hopes of one day making a contribution...She wanted to jump right to the end.  If you talk to scientists you find out how much there is to know about an area and how much they realize they still don't know.  Holmes didn't care...she thought it was unnecessary...just declare a goal and DO IT.  Psycho + Dunning-Kruger effect = Elizabeth Holmes

[MikeK]

Looks like Balwani got more time than the Holmes.

[PlainName]

Should've turned up to the hearing pregnant.

[SiliconWizard]

Thing is, Holmes knew they didn't have a device, and the way the scientists demanded lots and lots more time to develop such a device, she was well aware that she was on top of a great big scam, and just didn't want to lose the financial benefits and rewards and publicity she was getting.

I think it's very telling that she tried to get into a grad research program while still an undergrad.  She wasn't interested in learning the science in the hopes of one day making a contribution...She wanted to jump right to the end.  If you talk to scientists you find out how much there is to know about an area and how much they realize they still don't know.  Holmes didn't care...she thought it was unnecessary...just declare a goal and DO IT.  Psycho + Dunning-Kruger effect = Elizabeth Holmes

Well of course. There have been many successful entrepreneurs with that mindset though. Look at how many were uni dropouts and have built empires.

Sure she's manipulative, sure she's full of herself, sure she's a psycho.
But I'll keep saying that the problem with Theranos was not her, it was all the people who followed her.
And that's a general problem, which is why I'm pointing it out. By herself, she wouldn't have been able to do squat except talk. The root problem is always the followers. It has been, it is and it will be. For one psycho that ends up in prison, there are millions of potential followers waiting for the next one.

[Nominal Animal]

The root problem is always the followers. It has been, it is and it will be. For one psycho that ends up in prison, there are millions of potential followers waiting for the next one.

We can't change humans from followers to leaders.  If you try, you end up becoming a Mengele or similar monster.  So, we have to harness the psychos, or accept the chaos they sow.

[SiliconWizard]

The root problem is always the followers. It has been, it is and it will be. For one psycho that ends up in prison, there are millions of potential followers waiting for the next one.

We can't change humans from followers to leaders.  If you try, you end up becoming a Mengele or similar monster.  So, we have to harness the psychos, or accept the chaos they sow.

I would have expected a little more nuanced from you.
So people are either sheeps or leaders? Uh, no. More education and a better sense of responsibility gets you there. No need for inflated monster concepts.
And that ends in a Godwin point. *sigh*

Oh, and the worst sheeps are the ones who know perfectly well what they do. In Theranos's case, that's very likely most of the people involved except of course the patients.

[MikeK]

But I'll keep saying that the problem with Theranos was not her, it was all the people who followed her.  And that's a general problem, which is why I'm pointing it out. By herself, she wouldn't have been able to do squat except talk. The root problem is always the followers. It has been, it is and it will be. For one psycho that ends up in prison, there are millions of potential followers waiting for the next one.

We would have nothing without the workers willing to follow and do the work.  Can't really fault people motivated by employment.  They were trying to do the work and she had unreasonable expectations.  Nobody is waiting around for a psycho to show up to follow.

[floobydust]

Psychopathy is highly sought after as a business leadership trait in CEO's. Prison doesn't affect it at all, the disorder is in mask ROM.
Problem with being a follower engineer, is you get pulled into the corruption when they push you to overlook/fake/thwart good ethics. You collect a paycheque, a fabulous ride on a ship heading for the rocks.
But when the exec comes up to you and commands a little transgression here and there and you have mortgage payments and a family to support, you can get trapped.

[james_s]

Psychopathy is highly sought after as a business leadership trait in CEO's. Prison doesn't affect it at all, the disorder is in mask ROM.

For that reason I kind of think they should be executed or tattooed with a warning to protect the rest of society. Psychopaths are incurable and cause an outsized amount of damage to those around them.

[MikeK]

Psychopathy is highly sought after as a business leadership trait in CEO's. Prison doesn't affect it at all, the disorder is in mask ROM.

For that reason I kind of think they should be executed or tattooed with a warning to protect the rest of society. Psychopaths are incurable and cause an outsized amount of damage to those around them.

Read "The Psychopath Test" by Jon Ronson.  One case study in it, a guy, tried to appear crazy to avoid punishment for a minor crime.  He was given the test and gave all the "psychopathic" answers on purpose.  Once identified as a psychopath, though, he was locked up and had a helluva time getting out.  Any normal behavior was interpreted as manipulative psychotic behavior.

[floobydust]

Psychopathy is highly sought after as a business leadership trait in CEO's. Prison doesn't affect it at all, the disorder is in mask ROM.

For that reason I kind of think they should be executed or tattooed with a warning to protect the rest of society. Psychopaths are incurable and cause an outsized amount of damage to those around them.

I agree and find these people need to be tossed into the meat grinder. They are extremely destructive, by nature. In relationships and as business executives.
They are missing the bulk of human emotions, find them baffling to see in other humans. They learn to fake emotions, mimic them. It does make them "free" to commit all kinds of heinous acts. I think they are more commonplace than the statistics.

A CEO had just fired the engineering manager. An hour later I pass by the CEO in the washroom, he's joyful and smiling asking me how things are going. I'm taken aback because the entire eng dept. is stunned, so I say "not sure who's going to manage the group". After much thought he says in a low voice "yeah, we lost a good man there". Pretty obvious he has no emotions or empathy, even happy that he had someone to blame for the failures.

Another acquaintance, adopted into a family with university professors for parents, yet is a career criminal. Theft, weapons offenses, raped several women and reached his pinnacle robbing a bank. He tried to get me to join him "all that money's in the vault just sitting there, it belongs to nobody"... He got 4 years jail time, and no change in behaviour.

It's shocking to know these people and their incessant need for power and control, along with their narcissism. Many I've known are low intelligence, learning (school) is very difficult for them. But they fake their grandeur. I also notice they constantly make snork sounds with stuffed up sinuses.

[Nominal Animal]

The root problem is always the followers. It has been, it is and it will be. For one psycho that ends up in prison, there are millions of potential followers waiting for the next one.

We can't change humans from followers to leaders.  If you try, you end up becoming a Mengele or similar monster.  So, we have to harness the psychos, or accept the chaos they sow.

I would have expected a little more nuanced from you.
So people are either sheeps or leaders? Uh, no.

Your definition, not mine.

I accept people as they are.  I do not want to try to change them, because according to my own ethics, I do not have the right to force them to change, no matter how much I believe they'd be better of by it.  Others have tried, and failed, and become monsters.  Most of the people referred to by Godwin's law never thought of themselves as monsters, they genuinely believed themselves to be a force for good.  Until you understand and accept that, you know nothing of humans.

Now education is paramount, and will lift people away from poverty and unhealthy living conditions and behavioural patterns.  It is admirable, and I will support efforts trying to make education available to everyone.  However, it will not make many less prone to manipulation by psychopaths and sociopaths.  That kind of 'immunity' or protection is a personality trait.  Knowledge or understanding will offer only minimal support –– the kind where you know to try to avoid those people.  Knowledge or understanding will not protect you when they get so close they can directly interact with you.

Take myself as an example.  I know how these people operate.  Yet, when put face to face, I will be manipulated successfully.  It is only later, when I review my on actions and behaviour (which itself is actually pathological and not healthy), I will 'detect' the pattern.  If you insist education and responsibility gets you there, how you explain my naïvete?  Which one do I lack, education or responsibility?  I know many intelligent and practically knowledgeable people (so not just academic knowledge, but also practical knowledge, including how fraudsters work) that still easily fall for social games, because they lack the personality traits that would shield them from it: I'm in no way unique in this.  It is the underlying reason why I so detest social games: I and many others have no defense against them, even when we know exactly how they work, because they are based on something deeper than just the conscious mind.

If one accepts my argument that sociopaths and psychopaths exploit human psychology in ways that are based on personality traits and not learned behaviour, one will immediately see that there is no workable inoculation to give the masses.  The only non-monstruous way, therefore, is to harness the psychopaths and sociopaths, to minimise the chaos and unstability they sow.

Also, note that I say "harness", and not confine/jail/isolate.  There are many positions they are well suited for, and beneficial to the people around them.
I'd love to work for a firm with one at the helm, but with emotionally/psychologically bound to the company and the work they do: the "our very own monster" concept.

[MrMobodies]

They are missing the bulk of human emotions, find them baffling to see in other humans. They learn to fake emotions, mimic them. It does make them "free" to commit all kinds of heinous acts. I think they are more commonplace than the statistics.

Joke:
She does have human emotions but only for herself for her personal lifestyle, assets and her means of finance.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/02/inside-elizabeth-holmess-final-months-at-theranos

“SHE NEVER LOOKS BACK”: INSIDE ELIZABETH HOLMES’S CHILLING FINAL MONTHS AT THERANOS
BY NICK BILTON FEBRUARY 20, 2019

Holmes’s travel, security details, and publicists were all paid for by Theranos. Meals, clothing, and other social activities were almost always expensed. As one of the former employees said to me, “Someone had to be paying for all those Birkin bags.” This employee said that Holmes’s expenses were somewhat of a joke at the company. “The company paid for everything,” they said. “She would submit her miles if she drove the six miles to her house in Los Altos.”

The employee said that the only time Holmes evidenced defeat during Theranos’s collapse was when the company cut her off financially, after the criminal charges were filed. “She lost her cool. She had a fit,” they said. “She had to give up the house in Los Altos.”

Sounds to me like she was "the company". All those investors investing in her and the employers paying through their work just to keep her lifestyle afloat.

When she found out she was not "the company" anymore and no longer important than anyone else there she showed her "emotions" by having a fit. I wonder what will happen in prison if she goes to prison. Will she influence and control the inmates or (if they knew any better) beat these "emotions" out of her to make them show more often.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63895825

Sunny Balwani: Former Theranos executive gets nearly 13 years in prison
Published 1 day ago By Madeline Halpert BBC News, Washington

Ramesh "Sunny" Balwani, the business partner of disgraced Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes, has been sentenced to nearly 13 years in prison.

Balwani was convicted in July of 12 counts of wire fraud and conspiracy to commit wire fraud for his role in the failed blood-testing start-up. Theranos executives falsely claimed the product could diagnose illnesses with a few drops of blood from a finger prick. Holmes was sentenced to over 11 years (135 months) in prison last month. Balwani did not speak as he was sentenced to 155 months in prison at the end of a nearly four-hour sentencing hearing on Wednesday. His lawyers say that like Holmes, he plans to file an appeal.

Unlike Holmes, he was found guilty of defrauding patients who used the blood tests. Holmes was convicted of four counts of fraud. Once hailed as the "next Steve Jobs", she launched Theranos after dropping out of Stanford University at age 19. The company's value rose sharply after it claimed it could bring about a revolution in disease diagnosis.

Balwani, the company's former president and chief operating officer, served as her second-in-command and had direct oversight over the company's labs. Though the two were originally charged together, their trials were separated after Holmes accused Balwani of emotional and physical abuse during their romantic relationship, which occurred during their time at Theranos. She argued that his alleged manipulation of her was controlling and affected her business decisions. Balwani, who is 19 years her senior, has denied those allegations.

Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes gets 11 years in prison for fraud Who is Elizabeth Holmes and why was she on trial?
"Mr Balwani is not the same as Elizabeth Holmes," his lawyers wrote in a memo to the judge before the sentencing, adding that Holmes "was dramatically more culpable" for the scam.

"He actually invested millions of dollars of his own money; he never sought fame or recognition; and he has a long history of quietly giving to those less fortunate." The sentence was read in the same court in San Jose, California, the heart of Silicon Valley, where Holmes learned her fate less than three weeks earlier. Balwani's trial was sparsely attended compared to Holmes'. For her 18 November sentencing, crowds formed a queue five hours before the court opened, but there was no line to see him.

So she calls an "emotional" and "physically" "abusive" relationship a "romantic relationship"? 
From 2003 to 2016?

During her trial, Holmes testified that she had been raped while she was a student at Stanford and that she had sought solace from Balwani in the aftermath of the incident.
...
However, she later testified that Balwani had not forced her to make the false statements to investors, business partners, journalists and company directors that had been described in the case.[37] In her court testimony, Holmes stated that Balwani wanted to "kill the person" she was and make her into a "new Elizabeth" In court filings, Balwani and his ex-wife Fujimoto have "categorically" denied abuse allegations, calling them "false and inflammatory"
...
Balwani divorced his wife in 2002[113] and became romantically involved with Holmes in 2003, about the same time Holmes dropped out of university.[111] The couple moved into an apartment together in 2005

Now if you were physically abused by someone would you go back to them?

So Balwani's ex wife testified that she herself was not emotionally and physically abused during their relationship leaving Holmes to be making it up. Why would he abuse Elizabeth Holmes and not the wife?

I thought I remember from a documentary that she fired him but it seems like he just stepped down.
https://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2016/05/12/theranos-president-and-coo-sunny-balwani-resigns411917/

Theranos President and COO Sunny Balwani resigns
May 12, 2016 5:24 pm by AB Wire

The President and COO of Theranos Inc., Ramesh ‘Sunny’ Balwani, who played a key role in the blood testing laboratory’s product development, growth, and the implementation of its mission, is retiring from his position.
...
50-year-old Balwani, a top associate of Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes, leaves in the wake of last month’s news
...
Theranos spokeswoman Brooke Buchanan said Balwani isn’t being blamed for the company’s regulatory problems. Rather, she said, his departure is merely part of a broader reorganization that will see the company appoint a new chief medical officer, to whom its labs will report, a new head of research and a new operating chief. The company is actively recruiting for those positions.
...
Fortune noted that Balwani leaving is “as if Holmes were cutting off her own right arm.”

What a young age to retire.

[james_s]

When she found out she was not "the company" anymore and no longer important than anyone else there she showed her "emotions" by having a fit. I wonder what will happen in prison if she goes to prison. Will she influence and control the inmates or (if they knew any better) beat these "emotions" out of her to make them show more often.

Prisons have their own culture, hierarchy and pecking order. I've read that around 70% of the prison population at least in the US has ASPD, that's a large majority that has sociopathic traits. Hard to say where she'd fall into line with a large population of other people sharing many of her characteristics.

[Stray Electron]

Another acquaintance, adopted into a family with university professors for parents, yet is a career criminal. Theft, weapons offenses, raped several women and reached his pinnacle robbing a bank. He tried to get me to join him "all that money's in the vault just sitting there, it belongs to nobody"... He got 4 years jail time, and no change in behaviour.

   I grew up with two people that were adopted by some of the nicest people that you'd ever want to meet yet both of them were incessant liars and thieves with no remorse or any consideration for anyone but themselves.  But other people that I knew and that were adopted never had these kinds of issues.  Some people just seem to be born lacking any kind of morals or scruples.

[MikeK]

Some people just seem to be born lacking any kind of morals or scruples.

It's a physical problem...with the amygdala.  Some people are indeed born with problems with it.

[tom66]

The rate of psychopathy in the general population is around 0.5 - 1%.  If you think that you probably know at least 100 people reasonably closely (friends, work colleagues, family) then it's pretty easy to imagine you deal with a light-weight psychopath several times in a month ... though some are good at hiding it. And often it's not an 'evil' trait, 1% of people are not genocidal maniacs for instance.  It just means they lack empathy for others; they can still see that appearing empathetic is beneficial for their social status, but it also means they have no care about manipulating others to get their way.  Also, many never get diagnosed.  It's far more common in men than women, and it may go some way to explain why the male prison population is so much larger.

[Nominal Animal]

What really grinds my gears is that some people are still blaming people for falling to the wiles of sociopaths and psychopaths, and believing that you can "educate" people to not fall for them.

You think you won't fall victim, because you know you know better.  Sure, until you do fall.

When that happens, there are two paths you can take: you can blame yourself, or you can blame others.  Neither is constructive.  What is constructive, is realizing that sociopaths and psychopaths have manipulation skills that you cannot educate against.  It just doesn't work.  The level of immunity to such social games depends much more on your personality traits than on your intelligence or knowledge.  Just like you cannot teach an average person to be a genius in math, you cannot teach an average person to be immune from social manipulation by a sociopath or psychopath.

Blaming the victims does not help.

[nctnico]

Blaming the victims does not help.

True. But in several cases better regulations and stronger enforcement would help prevent damages. Here in the NL we have a sociopath that wanted to play bank director. Despite not being up to standard at all, he managed to get a banking license and did a lot of damage. Ending in bankcrupty and many ruined lives. The POS director of the Dutch national bank who should have blocked the license application, had to go because of it and now works for the Bank of China because he couldn't get a job anywhere else.

[tom66]

Not sure I agree you cannot educate against psychopaths. 

Most are not more intelligent than the average person (higher intelligence and psychopathy are in fact slightly negatively correlated traits), and therefore if you know the signs to look out for you can protect yourself against these people.

You may not be able to convince everyone around you, but once you spot the signs you can figure out a reasonable path to avoid them.

The worst case is if they are your boss or hold some other power over you; that can be dangerous.

In the case of Holmes, the signs of deception were there from the start:  the false male voice, the fact she had others knowingly lie to investors for her gain, whistleblowers in the company ... It was all there for investors willing to actually dig deep.  Unfortunately, many investors fell for the pitch, perhaps under the concept of the "bigger fool" theory.

[John B]

What really grinds my gears is that some people are still blaming people for falling to the wiles of sociopaths and psychopaths, and believing that you can "educate" people to not fall for them.

You think you won't fall victim, because you know you know better.  Sure, until you do fall.

When that happens, there are two paths you can take: you can blame yourself, or you can blame others.  Neither is constructive.  What is constructive, is realizing that sociopaths and psychopaths have manipulation skills that you cannot educate against.  It just doesn't work.  The level of immunity to such social games depends much more on your personality traits than on your intelligence or knowledge.  Just like you cannot teach an average person to be a genius in math, you cannot teach an average person to be immune from social manipulation by a sociopath or psychopath.

Blaming the victims does not help.

Yeah. I have first hand experience in dealing with these types. They will exploit normal social codes and tendencies, and as such it's very difficult to fully protect yourself against such people without destroying your own ability to function as a social creature. They exploit trust, good will, generosity, the benefit of the doubt, and more.

If you take these aspects out of all your social interactions for your own protection, not only will you be likely miserable and paranoid, but you'll probably develop some level of sociopathy yourself.

I think you can educate yourself all day long with these stories in some attempt to never be burned by these types of people, but actually dealing with the complicated web of factors first hand will probably result in you failing that and getting burned anyways.

[Stray Electron]

What really grinds my gears is that some people are still blaming people for falling to the wiles of sociopaths and psychopaths, and believing that you can "educate" people to not fall for them.

You think you won't fall victim, because you know you know better.  Sure, until you do fall.

When that happens, there are two paths you can take: you can blame yourself, or you can blame others.  Neither is constructive.  What is constructive, is realizing that sociopaths and psychopaths have manipulation skills that you cannot educate against.  It just doesn't work.  The level of immunity to such social games depends much more on your personality traits than on your intelligence or knowledge.  Just like you cannot teach an average person to be a genius in math, you cannot teach an average person to be immune from social manipulation by a sociopath or psychopath.

Blaming the victims does not help.

Yeah. I have first hand experience in dealing with these types. They will exploit normal social codes and tendencies, and as such it's very difficult to fully protect yourself against such people without destroying your own ability to function as a social creature. They exploit trust, good will, generosity, the benefit of the doubt, and more.

If you take these aspects out of all your social interactions for your own protection, not only will you be likely miserable and paranoid,

   I strongly disagree.  I know quite a few people that are "that type" and I simply cut them out of my life completely, including a couple of family members, and I'm far from miserable or paranoid. In fact I'm far happier now than in the past.  It took years to fully realize how destructive some of these people were but once I realized it, I cut them out of my life and now things are much more peaceful and without all of the constant DRAMA. 

  People don't have to be as big of a liar as Elizabeth Holmes and her ilk in order to slowly but inevitably wreck your life. The sooner that people wake up to that fact and take a look at the people around them and decide which ones to keep in trier lives and which ones they need to dump, the better off they'll be.

[Stray Electron]

I think you can educate yourself all day long with these stories in some attempt to never be burned by these types of people, but actually dealing with the complicated web of factors first hand will probably result in you failing that and getting burned anyways.

  There's an old saying that says "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!"

   Face it; you're going to get taken every now and then but the important things is that you LEARN from your mistakes and don't get taken a second time.   And if you're really smart, you learn from other people's mistakes and you don't make the same mistake in the first place.

[Nominal Animal]

Not sure I agree you cannot educate against psychopaths.

You can teach people to detect the early signs and to try and avoid interacting with them, sure.
But you cannot teach people how to not be manipulated.  Avoid, yes; not be manipulated, no.

In business, there is a much higher density of sociopaths and psychopaths than in other fields, because there the traits can be useful.
The idea of an investor avoiding companies where a top executive exhibits such traits is ridiculous; like refusing to interact with anyone whose last name starts with an H.

It is likely possible to teach some people the perceptive skills and introspection to detect and counteract social manipulation, but it is not something every human, or even most of humans, are capable of.  Just consider how long it takes to train a criminal investigator to be capable of catching killers, and how many simply cannot do such work for long.

Sure, we can argue that for anyone to be allowed to manage millions of dollars of other peoples money, they should be taught such skills.
That's a completely different discussion, though.  Blaming anyone for not having such skills is like blaming people for believing what they read in the newspapers or hear from the newscasts.  (Media education should be part of comprehensive schools in my opinion, but it isn't, so you cannot really blame people for believing the media they consume.  Things have changed a lot in the last century, media-wise, and our upbringing hasn't caught up yet.)

[PlainName]

Media education should be part of comprehensive schools in my opinion, but it isn't, so you cannot really blame people for believing the media they consume.

How would media education - whatever that is - help people believe only the right stuff? Or know when to disbelieve stuff?

[AVGresponding]

Media education should be part of comprehensive schools in my opinion, but it isn't, so you cannot really blame people for believing the media they consume.

How would media education - whatever that is - help people believe only the right stuff? Or know when to disbelieve stuff?

It would help if people were taught critical thinking skills at an earlier point, say pre-teen, rather than waiting until higher education, as seems to mostly be the case these days.

[Nominal Animal]

Media education should be part of comprehensive schools in my opinion, but it isn't, so you cannot really blame people for believing the media they consume.

How would media education - whatever that is - help people believe only the right stuff? Or know when to disbelieve stuff?

At the core, it is about critical analysis of media messaging.  The key sentence from the media literacy Wikipedia page:

Critical analyses can include identifying author, purpose and point of view, examining construction techniques and genres, examining patterns of media representation, and detecting propaganda, censorship, and bias in news and public affairs programming (and the reasons for these). Media literacy education may explore how structural features—such as media ownership, or its funding model—affect the information presented.

If you compare this to dealing with sociopathic or psychopathic fraudsters, it is about detection and avoidance, before you get swayed by them.

But just like with sociopaths and psychopaths, even knowing the media is biased does not protect you from its social influence.  For example, psychological studies have proven that by forcing people to utter specific sentences enough times over time, their attitude toward things involved in that speech can be altered, regardless of whether they know it is happening.

We humans are social animals, and that sort of manipulation simply bypasses most of our conscious minds, and affects our behaviour and thoughts at a more primitive level.

[Psi]

It would help if people were taught critical thinking skills at an earlier point, say pre-teen, rather than waiting until higher education, as seems to mostly be the case these days.

You can say that again!

Critical thinking, higher reasoning skills and problem solving need to be a major subject at school.
They are as important as maths and science.
It's extremely important that, when faced with a problem, kids learn how to analyze the problem from all angles, figure out the root cause and come up with a solution, or an approach to located additional information if no good solution presents itself.

[Nominal Animal]

It's extremely important that, when faced with a problem, kids learn how to analyze the problem from all angles, figure out the root cause and come up with a solution, or an approach to locate additional information if no good solution presents itself.

The psychological impact of teaching kids that should not be underestimated either: that no problem is insurmountable and that they can find solutions to every single problem they will ever come across (it only being a question of time, effort, cost, etc. whether any of those solutions is worthwhile, or whether one needs to go deeper one step further in whatever caused this to be a problem that would need to be solved; and that ones own personal interests affect a lot which kinds of problems one will most effectively find solutions to).

You can see this easily in the kids' increased self-confidence, and it will also affect the kids' school grades in a definitely positive manner.  I've seen this happening in real life.

Of course, politics will interfere with this, because a huge segment of Western comprehensive school teachers believe they should teach kids to be interchangeable pro-equity/equality-of-outcome political units, with individualism and meritocracy being swear words and definitely punishable ideas.
Just look at how Finnish PISA scores are plummeting, as earlier individualistic/self-confidence-building/meritocratic lesson plans have been replaced with the more politically correct group-oriented ones in the last decade or two.

[PlainName]

that no problem is surmountable

did you mean 'insurmountable'?

[Nominal Animal]

that no problem is surmountable

did you mean 'insurmountable'?

Most definitely I did, thanks.  Me fail English often...

[PlainName]

Phew! Next generation of engineers saved

[james_s]

I'm so bad off financially that I wouldn't even be able to eat if I was to move out, let alone take a hot shower or own a car.

What's stopping you from changing that situation? Get a job, move away, get some roommates and rent a place in a cheap area, then focus on learning a skill. If you're young and physically able much of the world is in dire need of tradesmen, shouldn't be too hard to get an apprenticeship. If you're stuck where you are, it's only in your own mind, people leave broken situations all the time with little more than the shirt on their back. The hardest part is convincing yourself that you don't actually need to be dependent on someone.

[Stray Electron]

Yeah. I have first hand experience in dealing with these types. They will exploit normal social codes and tendencies, and as such it's very difficult to fully protect yourself against such people without destroying your own ability to function as a social creature. They exploit trust, good will, generosity, the benefit of the doubt, and more.

If you take these aspects out of all your social interactions for your own protection, not only will you be likely miserable and paranoid, but you'll probably develop some level of sociopathy yourself.

I think you can educate yourself all day long with these stories in some attempt to never be burned by these types of people, but actually dealing with the complicated web of factors first hand will probably result in you failing that and getting burned anyways.

I have had to deal with that nearly my entire life. Yes it certainly does make you paranoid and does make you miserable. Unfortunately I cannot simply leave because I'm bad off financially. These same people in my life want me to remain financially dependent upon them. Hopefully by retaining the skills that I have I can pull myself up off the ground and obtain a regular income. Antipsychotics help.

I'm so bad off financially that I wouldn't even be able to eat if I was to move out, let alone take a hot shower or own a car.

Don't forget also that these same type of people can and will do everything in their power to destroy your life so that you remain dependent upon them. Thats what I went through as a kid/teen and adult. My father was like that and every day it was a struggle just leaving my bedroom yet he would put me down to control me then say sorry in the afternoon, then repeat the process the day after.

Then he would tell me why I don't go outside more often. I'm like afraid for my life from him and he's asking me why I don't go outside more, oh wait, you told me that the outside world is full of bad people and that you want me to obey the words of a book before I'm allowed to. But I'm betting that you wouldn't let me live a normal life anyway even if I did start to go outside and have a life.

Can you imagine the sheer insanity of being forced to turn away from education and obtaining a job, being told by your parents that, then having to pick the pieces of your life up when you are 38 without any education credentials, no job experience.

Its just pure horror going through it. Thankfully my mum isn't as bad but she has friends who think its atrocious that I'm still living at home but not interested in their teachings. Then they get angry if I don't attend on a regular basis. If I tell them that I wouldn't be able to afford to eat if I was living on my own they don't care! They tell me that "people in 3rd world countries are doing far worse than you" I think to myself at that point... "well do you want to be a friend to me?"
And if I mention any of this to them, they label me crazy. Which works perfect because what I've been through would send just about anybody crazy.

Just pure horror. I don't want to offend anybody but sometimes you've got to just to survive.
[/quote]


   Yeah, I think many of us have had to deal with our own demons.  I lived with my father after my parents divorced and he and I fought constantly and I mean real honest to God fist-fights until I finally left home when I was seventeen. I joined the US military five days after I graduated from high school so that I could get away from home and away from the small dead end town that I was in, and to learn a skill and to get a real paying job, and as a way to pay for a future college education.  It was probably the smartest move that I ever made.  If you're still young enough to join then I highly recommend it as a way to get out of your situation and to move on with your life.

[MrMobodies]

https://www.tmz.com/2023/01/13/theranos-founder-elizabeth-holmes-mental-health-program-prison-the-dropout/

ELIZABETH HOLMES MUST ENTER MENTAL HEALTH PROGRAM After Prison Sentence
1/13/2023 12:30 AM PT

Elizabeth Holmes, founder of the failed blood-testing start-up Theranos, * could be looking at a rigorous schedule even after she gets out of prison ... one that involves her completing a mental health program.

According to legal docs, obtained by TMZ, the specifics of the program will go down as directed by her probation officer, but Holmes will foot all -- or at least part -- of the bill.

The docs say Holmes must also cooperate in the collection of DNA, and must be willing to submit herself, her home, office, vehicle and all her property to a search if her probation officer has any reasonable suspicions she's violating the terms of her supervised release.

As we reported, Holmes was sentenced in November to more than 11 years behind bars and 3 years of supervised release. She has to report to the prison at the end of April.

You'll recall, she was convicted on 4 of the 11 charges she was facing in her fraud trial -- one count of conspiracy to commit wire fraud and 3 counts of wire fraud.

She was charged after her start-up biotech company Theranos collapsed amid allegations she deceived investors, patients and advertisers ... all in search of money and fame.

*I wonder how rigorous.

Joke: Wouldn't it be better she does the mental health program at the start of the prison sentence before she is allowed to meet other inmates just in case to prevent her influencing and controlling them. I know james_s said about it was hierarchy there with inmates with similar traits but I think she maybe very well be capable or if they are wise they may just avoid her.

[Black Phoenix]

https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2023/01/20/feds-say-elizabeth-holmes-attempted-to-flee-the-u-s-with-one-way-ticket-after-conviction/

Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes tried to flee the U.S. after a jury convicted her of felony fraud in early 2022, federal prosecutors alleged in a new court filing.

“Holmes booked an international flight to Mexico departing on January 26, 2022, without a scheduled return trip,” the document from prosecutors, filed Thursday, said. It was only after government prosecutors contacted Holmes’ legal team about the “unauthorized flight” that the trip was cancelled.

In a letter from Holmes attorney Lance Wade to prosecutors emailed Jan. 23, 2022 and submitted by prosecutors as an exhibit in their filing, Wade said Holmes’ flight reservation for Mexico was made before the jury’s verdict. “The hope was that the verdict would be different and Ms. Holmes would be able to make this trip to attend the wedding of close friends in Mexico,” the letter said. “Given the verdict, she does not plan to take the trip — and therefore did not provide notice, seek permission, or request access to her passport (which the government has) for the trip. But she also had not yet cancelled the trip, amidst everything that has been going on. We will have her do so promptly.”

[PlainName]

Would they not have been better to just say nothing and then nick her at the airport? By telling her (via her lawyers) that TPTB are hip to the trip, if she were intending to skip she'd make sure the next attempt was much more below the radar.

[MadScientist]

Clearly booking a flight out of the US isn’t a good move and makes her look like a flight risk. Of course delusional people trend to continue being delusional

[tom66]

If you were trying to make it look like you were going to come back, why not book a return leg anyway?  Why would a return leg not be needed for a wedding? 

Mexico does have an extradition policy with the US, but perhaps she was hoping she could get a gang to smuggle her out of the country.  I'm not sure she'd like that option.

[BravoV]

She managed to bribe thru the system for not to sieze & confiscate her passport by court order (isn't this obvious ?  ), and I guess this particular step must cost her pretty penny, but alas, still not enough. 

[MrMobodies]

https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2023/01/20/feds-say-elizabeth-holmes-attempted-to-flee-the-u-s-with-one-way-ticket-after-conviction/

Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes tried to flee the U.S. after a jury convicted her of felony fraud in early 2022, federal prosecutors alleged in a new court filing.

Grease and slime her way out of it which buys her more time if they do happen to find her and successfully extradite her back.

“Holmes booked an international flight to Mexico departing on January 26, 2022, without a scheduled return trip,”

Joke: Maybe she wanted to disappear.

the document from prosecutors, filed Thursday, said. It was only after government prosecutors contacted Holmes’ legal team about the “unauthorized flight” that the trip was cancelled.

Pleased to see they are watching over this psychopath and the moves she might make.

Wade said Holmes’ flight reservation for Mexico was made before the jury’s verdict. “The hope was that the verdict would be different and Ms. Holmes would be able to make this trip to attend the wedding of close friends in Mexico,” the letter said. “Given the verdict, she does not plan to take the trip — and therefore did not provide notice, seek permission, or request access to her passport (which the government has) for the trip. But she also had not yet cancelled the trip, amidst everything that has been going on. We will have her do so promptly.

Joke: Is it because they noticed and she was hoping they didn't which is why she booked her flight without a return trip (to spend as long as she wanted) and didn't cancel it after the sentencing. Sounds to me like a great excuse and well planned if it wasn't coincidence.

How convenient. She could spend a very long time there and if that was the case I wonder how long it would take them to extradite her back for sentence if she didn't disappear after that.

Would they not have been better to just say nothing and then nick her at the airport? By telling her (via her lawyers) that TPTB are hip to the trip, if she were intending to skip she'd make sure the next attempt was much more below the radar.

That would have removed the benefit of the doubt over her forgetting to cancel the trip or not taking up the opportunity.

Maybe that's why they are not taking any chances and are being proactive as she seems to be so good at influencing others and greasing and sliming her way out of things.

[SiliconWizard]

Nice drama! I'm out of popcorn.

[MrMobodies]

She managed to bribe thru the system for not to sieze & confiscate her passport by court order (isn't this obvious ?  ), and I guess this particular step must cost her pretty penny, but alas, still not enough. 

Joke: Talking of drama, forget about her health program, I think they should record everything she does in prison without her knowing about it to see how she behaves and "the magic" or whatever it is she has over other people and then broadcast live it to give the public (and the blood testing victims) a better understanding and confirmation of what she really is and what she got up to at Theranos and this time all without the influence of Balwani.

[Stray Electron]

If you were trying to make it look like you were going to come back, why not book a return leg anyway?  Why would a return leg not be needed for a wedding? 

Mexico does have an extradition policy with the US,

  Mexico could have just been the first stop before going to a country like Cuba that does not have an extradition treaty with the US. With the amount of money that Elizabeth swindled out of investors I'm sure that she could live very well; even in Cuba.  There are already several high profile fugitives from the US living in Cuba. 

   Even if the flight reservations were made BEFORE her conviction that doesn't mean that they weren't made as part of a possible evacuation plan. 

   Let us hope that the FBI gets involved with this and does a thorough investigation and questions everyone involved and makes a determination as to weather there was in fact going to be a wedding in Mexico or if this was just part of a pre-planned escape route in the event that the jury did convict her.   

[Stray Electron]

Nice drama! I'm out of popcorn.

  LOL!  Me Too! But it doesn't look like E.H.'s soap opera isn't going to end any time soon.

[MrMobodies]

Clearly booking a flight out of the US isn’t a good move and makes her look like a flight risk. Of course delusional people trend to continue being delusional

What surprises me is just how many delusional people are running around these days. Its like everyone just went nuts in western culture.

I guess this particular step must cost her pretty penny, but alas, still not enough. 

Or is it that she is playing dumb and stupid to justify her actions that might lead into fleeing.

Nice drama! I'm out of popcorn.

I am hoping they'd do a prison drama of her.

[MrMobodies]

Talking flight risks:
https://www.thestreet.com/biotech/heres-how-much-elizabeth-holmes-is-spending-before-jail

* Holmes Could Be a Flight Risk, Prosecutors Warn
As it stands now, Holmes has been more or less holed up in a California villa with her partner and young child. Though her partner's salary is listed at $0, their monthly expenses indicate they're getting money from somewhere.

I thought they make money through their hotel business.
* More like an escape risk.

Holmes apparently also has enough money to jet set, having recently appealed her travel restriction, which currently mandates she stay within the Northern District of California. * She claims that,  since her partner is unemployed, she needs more freedom to roam. But prosecutors claim she might be trying to dodge prison instead.

*Making up every excuse imaginable. What a load of bullshit.
I thought they are loaded for life with the hotel business family that she married herself into.
Would it matter if her partner was unemployed before they got married and after they jet set.

More space to do what she likes.
Joke: My partner is not employed... I need freedom to roam and disappear somewhere.

Why is she having children if her partner is so unemployable that it affecting her where she has to travel around for work. Should she be looking after her children? If not the family... Let me guess they can afford to have other people do it for them.

Holmes' partner did take the flight, however, and did not return to the states for a month and a half.

Maybe it was planned for the partner to disappear with her if  they managed to slip through.

And now prosecutors are pushing for her sentence to start right away.

Good.

I find her very slippery character and great actor once she greases people up and slimes her way through them.

[james_s]

She managed to bribe thru the system for not to sieze & confiscate her passport by court order (isn't this obvious ?  ), and I guess this particular step must cost her pretty penny, but alas, still not enough. 

Joke: Talking of drama, forget about her health program, I think they should record everything she does in prison without her knowing about it to see how she behaves and "the magic" or whatever it is she has over other people and then broadcast live it to give the public (and the blood testing victims) a better understanding and confirmation of what she really is and what she got up to at Theranos and this time all without the influence of Balwani.

"The magic" is that she's an attractive female, those have captivated people, especially men since the dawn of humanity. On top of that she obviously has some kind of psychopathy and thus lacks empathy and is willing and able to manipulate people to benefit herself. It's fairly easy to manipulate people and take advantage of societal norms if you really don't care and are incapable of feeling bad when your actions hurt others. Psychopaths and narcissists and such are known for being charismatic.

[SiliconWizard]

Yeah, there is no fricking magic here. Good lord.
And while some people are very good at manipulating others - that's extremely common, hardly the exception that some still want to believe, as it has existed almsot forever as james said - we as adults all are responsible of what we do and if we are being manipulated, that's because we let it happen. There is no magic there, and the mechanisms have been known for a very long time.

It's just a tiny bit harder when the manipulative person is a close relative - obvious and well known factor - and/or when there is some strong attraction involved, just as james said as well. Men doing really stupid stuff to get attention from females, that's also probably as old as humanity. We all have done something stupid for that reason at some point in our life, but as we age we're supposed to wise up. A little bit. Sometimes.

[MrMobodies]

Sorry I meant the "magic" as a joke on how well she influenced the many including that lawyer, Boies Schiller, who took stocks in her company as form of payment who went around threatening employees who left the company to work elsewhere:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Boies

Boies agreed to be paid for his firm's work in Theranos stock, which he expected to grow dramatically in value.

"The magic" is that she's an attractive female, those have captivated people, especially men since the dawn of humanity. On top of that she obviously has some kind of psychopathy and thus lacks empathy and is willing and able to manipulate people to benefit herself. It's fairly easy to manipulate people and take advantage of societal norms if you really don't care and are incapable of feeling bad when your actions hurt others. Psychopaths and narcissists and such are known for being charismatic.

It seems when she gets hurt she is perfectly capable of feeling bad for herself only like that time when her new CFO cut her off financially from the company in 2017 and she had this fit.

Joke: Maybe if the inmates are smart enough and see through it they could spread a bit of their own "magic" into her to make her feel bad and manipulated whilst being charismatic towards her.

Well considering that is likely to be a "Cushy, Fenceless Prison" with possible not so rough inmates(if you call them that) that may never happen.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-04/elizabeth-holmes-will-likely-land-in-cushy-fenceless-prison

Elizabeth Holmes Found Guilty in Theranos Fraud Trial ByMalathi Nayak
January 4, 2022, 5:00 PM UTCUpdated onJanuary 4, 2022, 6:02 PM UTC

Elizabeth Holmes, *once hailed as the youngest female self-made billionaire and an emblem of Silicon Valley entrepreneurship, will probably spend the next few years in a cushy minimum-security prison camp with access to activities like crafting or tennis, and **no perimeter fence.

* Self made? Rubbish. Under the possible influence of Balwani from 2002, his and her investors money.
More like self stole.
Joke: ** Maybe her family could take her holidays from the prison camp where she might slip away and flee for a bit

prison consultants and legal experts say that Holmes may serve as little as three years at one of the federal penal system’s less restrictive facilities for * non-violent, white-collar criminals. She is likely to appeal to her conviction and could spend even less time incarcerated if she prevails.

Prevails? in remorse. She might "show" remorse but might not mean it.

* Because she is not violent...
https://www.businessinsider.com/elizabeth-holmes-theranos-trial-prison-estate-prosecutors-appeal-conviction-2023-1?r=US&IR=T

"There are not two systems of justice — one for the wealthy and one for the poor — there is one criminal justice system in this country," they wrote in the document.

* So it seems like there is now... because she is not violent..

https://www.thestreet.com/biotech/heres-how-much-elizabeth-holmes-is-spending-before-jail

And, in what is largely cast as a millennial trait, Holmes is really, unapologetically entrepreneurial. So entrepreneurial, in fact, that she had allegedly been thinking of new ways to re-enter the pharma industry and jet off to Mexico to maybe just avoid going to prison in the first place.
but with prosecutors saying that she has a motive and high incentive (desperation?) to escape and they still decide to put her in a prison with no fence.

Prosecutors claim, according to Bloomberg, that Holmes has "indicated a willingness to continue operating in similar fields in the future," and enjoys a lifestyle of immodest comfortability, where she "has both the means and the motive to flee," and "her incentive to flee has never been higher."

https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2023/01/20/feds-say-elizabeth-holmes-attempted-to-flee-the-u-s-with-one-way-ticket-after-conviction/

Former Santa Clara County prosecutor Steven Clark, after reading the filing, said it appeared prosecution’s patience with Holmes was wearing thin. “They’re concerned that she’s spending time in a mansion and not in custody. They’re really questioning the fairness of all of this and I think their frustration was manifest,” Clark said.

She seems very good at getting stuff and concessions out of the system and taking liberties?

That ticket she booked:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elizabeth-holmes-bought-plane-ticket-to-mexico-after-conviction-prosecutors-theranos/

JANUARY 21, 2023 / 11:36 PM / AP

Elizabeth Holmes bought plane ticket to Mexico after conviction, prosecutors say

Holmes had a one-way plane ticket to Mexico booked for Jan. 26, 2022, three weeks after being convicted by a jury on four counts of fraud and conspiracy, federal prosecutors said in a motion filed Thursday in federal court in Northern California.

I was under the impression that she booked it before she was convicted.

Just saw a Youtube video on the subject and noticed the comments:
youtube.com/watch?v=HdcYmUtS1Z4
21 Jan 2023 CBS Evening News 7.1k views

In court documents, federal prosecutors allege that Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes purchased a plane ticket to Mexico after being convicted of fraud and conspiracy last year. She remains out of prison while appealing her conviction.

Youtube comments:

@justayoutuber1906 1 day ago
Is anybody shocked?   And what judge tells a convicted criminal to show up at prison when it is convenient for them??
Talk about billionaire-white-woman privilege.

Joke: An influenced judge.
So privileged they don't make any money in fact $0 as they have money given to them.

@b.visconti1765 1 day ago
Lordy..if I was sentenced like she was they would have made me go to jail that day!  What's So Special About Her???

She has money, lawyers and has married into a wealthy family and knows how to influence and manipulate people including that judge as it seems.

[MrMobodies]

Well if this is true then I am quite disappointed in the press reporting:
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/elizabeth-holmes-did-not-try-to-flee-us-after-conviction-attorneys-say-rcna67172

  Elizabeth Holmes says prosecutor's claim she tried to flee the U.S. after fraud conviction is 'baseless'
"These accusations have been widely reported in the press and already have produced negative effects for Ms. Holmes and her partner beyond this case," her attorneys said.
Jan. 24, 2023, 4:31 PM GMT By Rob Wile

They added that Holmes had already surrendered her passport, which "has been expired for years." Holmes has also been in frequent contact with multiple pretrial services officers, they wrote. "She has a flawless pretrial services record," they said.

As an explanation for the scheduled trip, the attorneys wrote that Holmes "hoped to be acquitted," at which point she would have been able to attend the wedding of close friends in Mexico in late January 2022. Her partner, Billy Evans, booked flights for himself and Holmes in December 2021, before the verdict.

"Once the verdict was issued, Ms. Holmes did not intend to make the trip," they wrote — and regardless, there was no way she could have gone, given the conditions of her release. In addition, they said, "when the government inquired, defense counsel quickly responded and explained the situation, and Mr. Evans canceled the ticket."

Holmes’ attorneys said lead prosecutor Jeffrey Schenk wrote to Holmes lawyer Lance Wade on Jan. 23, 2022: "I do not believe there is need for us to discuss this further, but I will certainly be in touch if that changes, and please feel free to reach out if you disagree.” Finally, Holmes' attorneys accused the prosecutors misrepresenting Evans' itinerary, saying he returned from Mexico through Tijuana four days after he left for Mexico; the government had originally accused him of leaving for Mexico and returning six weeks later from a different continent.

"Counsel for Ms. Holmes brought these inaccuracies to the government’s attention by email on January 20, 2023, and requested the government correct them," they wrote. "As of this filing, the government has neither responded nor corrected the inaccuracies." The lawyers added that the accusations “have been widely reported in the press and already have produced negative effects for Ms. Holmes and her partner beyond this case,[/b]” without elaborating.

Prosecutors did not respond to a request for comment. Holmes has been ordered to surrender to authorities in April to begin serving her sentence.

I thought they cancelled it after the prosecutors contacted Elizabeth Home's legal team.
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2023/01/20/feds-say-elizabeth-holmes-attempted-to-flee-the-u-s-with-one-way-ticket-after-conviction/

the document from prosecutors, filed Thursday, said. It was only after government prosecutors contacted Holmes’ legal team about the “unauthorized flight” that the trip was cancelled.

I don't know what is true anymore with the press reporting certain facts and about what she intended to do for definite.
I believe it was possible for a planned slip away if the opportunity arose.

Unless she turned up at the airport and got caught out by the authorities waiting for her what a waste of reporting.

[coppice]

I don't know what is true anymore with the press reporting certain facts and about what she intended to do for definite.
I believe it was possible for a planned slip away if the opportunity arose.

When have you ever known what is true by reading press reporting?

[Stray Electron]

  Or by believing what a defense lawyer claimed!   Frankly, I'd trust the news report more but that's not saying much.

[MrMobodies]

They shouldn't have said that they had court documents to prove it if they hadn't.

  Or by believing what a defense lawyer claimed!   Frankly, I'd trust the news report more but that's not saying much.

As it happens just like this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/average-car-contains-100-million-lines-of-code-the-state-of-autosoftware/msg4659721/#msg4659721

https://www.thegilbertlawgroup.com/blog/2015/january/man-sent-to-prison-over-toyota-sudden-accelerati/
Toyota Driver Freed From Prison, Prosecutor Drops Charges
Koua Fong Lee, who was in prison for vehicular homicide, is a free man.

By ANGELA M. HILL and SUSANNA SONG June 29, 2010, 11:28 PM


According to ABC affiliate KSTP, Ramsey County, Minnesota prosecutors said Lee could return home to his family if he accepted their offer to plead guilty to the same felony and be released immediately. The terms of the plea would mean Lee would still be a convicted felon with 15 years of probation and his driving privileges would be suspended for 10 years. Lee, 32, said no to the plea deal.

The family of the victims had also backed a new trial. Michael Padden, attorney for the victims' family, said his clients were "shocked" at the plea offer and "disappointed" with the prosecutors. "

Brent Schafer, also representing Lee, said new evidence showed that Lee deserved a new trial. "We'll call witnesses who have also experienced throttle control problems in their 1996 Camry."

Ramsey County Attorney Susan Gaertner expressed her sympathy to all involved in the accident, while also stating her opposition to a new trial. "But the law is clear," she said. "Newly discovered evidence is required to overturn a conviction. Despite diligent efforts, we found no such evidence."

The Ramsey County prosecutor's office said there was no new evidence. In April, two experts hired by the prosecutor re-examined the car and reported "…there were no problems with the brakes or throttle system.  "They blamed the accident on driver error.

**Lee's attorneys hired their own expert to examine the car, however, and their expert reported there was evidence that the throttle was stuck open and that Lee was pressing the brakes at the time of the collision.

Talking of which I thought the prosecutor was supposed to be on the side of the victims and the judge impartial but they seem a bit influenced too.

One of them, either the people who they got to do the testing or the prosecutors are lying but they seem more interested in sticking the blame to the driver. The judge see's others coming forward and the victims supporting a retrial which the judge don't seem to want based on the prosecutors claim they were maintaining that it was driver error and it makes me wonder if they are not on the side of the the victims who side are they on?

Joke: Are they treating Toyota as the real victim?
(Toyota having some kind of influence over them.)

It seems to me that not all of them can be trusted.

[MrMobodies]

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/02/business/elizabeth-holmes-prison-delay/index.html

Elizabeth Holmes wants to delay her prison sentence after giving birth to her second child
Jordan Valinsky
By Jordan Valinsky, CNN Business
Updated 5:05 PM EST, Thu March 2, 2023

New York CNN

Elizabeth Holmes, the former CEO of Theranos convicted of defrauding investors, is seeking to delay the start of her 11-year prison sentence because she has “two very young children” to be with.

The court filing last week represents the first public acknowledgment that Holmes gave has given birth to her second child. Holmes was pregnant during her November 2022 sentencing.

Her lawyers laid out several reasons to delay the prison sentence pending an appeal of her conviction, arguing that she’s not a flight risk or a danger to the community. It also said she has “two young children,” but didn’t reveal when her second child was born or their gender.

In a January filing, prosecutors said Holmes attempted to flee to Mexico.

“The government became aware on January 23, 2022, that Defendant Holmes booked an international flight to Mexico departing on January 26, 2022, without a scheduled return trip,” the court filing states. “Only after the government raised this unauthorized flight with defense counsel was the trip canceled.”

Holmes’ criminal trial was initially delayed from March 2021 to August 2021 because she was pregnant with her first child. She’s been married to her husband Billy Evans since 2019.

Former Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes on November 18, 2022 in San Jose, California. Holmes appeared in federal court for sentencing after being convicted of four counts of fraud for allegedly engaging in a multimillion-dollar scheme to defraud investors in her company Theranos, which offered blood testing lab services.
Elizabeth Holmes made an 'attempt to flee the country' after her conviction, prosecutors say
Last year, Holmes was sentenced to more than 11 years in prison for defrauding investors while running the failed blood testing startup Theranos. The sentence also includes a fine of $400, or $100 for each count of fraud. Restitution will be set at a later date.

Holmes was ordered to turn herself into custody on April 27, 2023 and is appealing her conviction. A hearing has been scheduled for March 17.

Holmes started Theranos in 2003 at the age of 19 and soon thereafter dropped out of Stanford University to pursue the company full-time. After a decade under the radar, Holmes began courting the press with claims that Theranos had invented technology that could accurately and reliably test for a range of conditions using just a few drops of blood taken from a finger prick.

Theranos raised $945 million from an impressive list of investors, including media mogul Rupert Murdoch, Oracle founder Larry Ellison, Walmart’s Walton family and the billionaire family of former Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos. At its peak, Theranos was valued at $9 billion, making Holmes a billionaire on paper. She was lauded on magazine covers, frequently wearing a signature black turtleneck that invited comparisons to late Apple CEO Steve Jobs.

The company began to unravel after a Wall Street Journal investigation in 2015 found Theranos had only ever performed roughly a dozen of the hundreds of tests it offered using its proprietary blood testing device, and with questionable accuracy. Instead, Theranos was relying on third-party manufactured devices from traditional blood testing companies.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11799179/Elizabeth-Holmes-given-birth-second-child.html
Isn't her neck very long?

Elizabeth Holmes 'has given birth to her second child': New legal filing claims Theranos fraudster, 39, is mom of 'two young children' as she asks judge to delay looming 11-year jail sentence until her appeal is heard.
By MELISSA KOENIG FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

PUBLISHED: 18:36, 27 February 2023 | UPDATED: 19:02, 27 February 2023

She is set to begin her prison sentence on April 27, but she and her legal team are now trying to postpone that date until the appeals process is finished - noting in court documents that Holmes is a 'mother of two young children.'

1: Reappeal sentence.
2: Delay the court even more by asking the prosecutors for things that they have to wait for like documents.
3  Ask for sentence to be quashed.
4: Have another baby (2)
Goto 1:

[james_s]

Isn't her neck very long?

I think it's just the angles. She has her head pushed forward and chin up which makes the neck appear longer. If you look at the distance between the top of her sholders and the bottom of her skull it is not unusually long.

[Ed.Kloonk]

[takes notes on how to make things appear longer. Angles.]

 

I wonder if this was the reason for the turtle necks. Not the mainstream (lamestream?) media explanation.

[PlainName]

Isn't her neck very long?

Made of brass, too.

[MrMobodies]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/elizabeth-holmes-responds-to-feds-demand-she-pay-878-million-crimes-didn-t-kill-theranos/ar-AA18iwa3

Story by Ethan Baron, Bay Area News Group • 11h ago

Davila ruled in a January order that prosecutors had not established that Theranos collapsed because of Holmes’ criminal conduct.

I thought they did with the amount of witnesses... beggars belief.

Or is it that she got to the judge.

[AlbertL]

Elizabeth Holmes wants to delay her prison sentence after giving birth to her second child
Jordan Valinsky
By Jordan Valinsky, CNN Business
Updated 5:05 PM EST, Thu March 2, 2023

New York CNN

Elizabeth Holmes, the former CEO of Theranos convicted of defrauding investors, is seeking to delay the start of her 11-year prison sentence because she has “two very young children” to be with.

Totally expected.  She will never serve a day in prison.

[TomKatt]

Elizabeth Holmes wants to delay her prison sentence after giving birth to her second child
Jordan Valinsky
By Jordan Valinsky, CNN Business
Updated 5:05 PM EST, Thu March 2, 2023

New York CNN

Elizabeth Holmes, the former CEO of Theranos convicted of defrauding investors, is seeking to delay the start of her 11-year prison sentence because she has “two very young children” to be with.

Totally expected.  She will never serve a day in prison.

IDK...  She probably won't serve her full sentence, but I don't think she's in that entitled class so much to eliminate it entirely, child or no child.  If Martha Stewart served time, so will she.

[MrMobodies]

I found this article and a little shocked with the biasdry. The author comparing Elizabeth Holmes to other entrepreneurs who probably done nothing wrong:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/03/10/opinion-why-holmes-should-be-released-on-bond-pending-her-appeal/

By TIM DRAPER |
PUBLISHED: March 10, 2023 at 5:15 a.m. | UPDATED: March 10, 2023 at 5:23 a.m.

Opinion: Why venture capitalist believes Elizabeth Holmes should be freed  :bullshit:
The media has turned her into a villainous caricature. This is just wrong. She is heroic  for her efforts
Former Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes arrives at federal court in San Jose on Oct. 17, 2022. (AP Photo/Jeff Chiu, File)
By TIM DRAPER |
PUBLISHED: March 10, 2023 at 5:15 a.m. | UPDATED: March 10, 2023 at 5:23 a.m.

After 30-plus years in venture capital and seeding companies like Skype, Baidu, Robinhood, Tesla, SpaceX, Hotmail, and many others that were not so successful, I believe it is incumbent on me to do the diligence on any startup I back. If a company doesn’t work out, I take my lumps and move on. Startups by their nature are risky. *12 Investors know these risks when we write their checks.

Entrepreneurs, by their nature, are projecting a future that they want to accomplish and as my partner used to say: *7 The best entrepreneurs have a reality distortion field because they often believe that they have accomplished what they have set out to accomplish because they have done so in their minds.

*1 When I first met Elizabeth Holmes, she was 19 years old and told me she wanted to “change health care as we know it.” I could see how passionate she was. She is determined about what she feels is unconscionable: the system of health care in our country is expensive, unfair and *2 provides inadequate service, and it can be so much better with *4 new technologies she was attempting to build.

*11 We knew Theranos was a long shot when we backed it.[/b] *4 It was an ambitious project of incredibly advanced biochemistry and technological machinery that had never been conceived of, let alone buil*t, and it was trying to wedge into an entrenched, customer-controlling industry. But we took a purposeful, calculated risk with our investment and while Theranos failed, I do not regret my investment.

Although they have remained silent with respect to Elizabeth and Theranos, *3 venture capitalists have a very different attitude than what the media or the courts have to date espoused. We VCs know the risks. We know that entrepreneurs have a reality distortion field, and that is what makes them so critical to our world. It is hard to imagine a life without a smartphone , without a car, without indoor plumbing, without electricity. *9 It was entrepreneurs like Elizabeth who gave them to us.

*6 The public (and possibly the courts) has been heavily influenced by what they have read about Elizabeth in the media and the various books and movies about her.  They have turned her into a villainous caricature. This is just wrong. She is heroic for her efforts, for all the challenges she has faced and pitfalls she has overcome to bring this technology to us to change our world. It is not our proudest moment as a country when we take down one who has tried to do so much for us.

I stand by my decision to invest in Theranos and Elizabeth Holmes – however unpopular that may be. Her vision for revolutionizing health care was only partially portrayed in her efforts at Theranos, and her ideas could save millions of lives over the course of the next few decades.

On Nov. 18, Elizabeth was sentenced to 11 years and 3 months in prison. But she is continuing to fight her case. *5I believe she is not only innocent :bullsht: , but also was almost heroic. Keep this woman free. *8 She has only tried to make the world a better place. :bullshit

Tim Draper is a venture capitalist who has founded 30 Draper venture funds, Draper University, Bizworld, and two statewide initiatives to improve governance and education. He is the author of “How to be the Startup Hero – A Guide and Textbook for Entrepreneurs and Aspiring Entrepreneurs.”

So here is what I gather, correct me if you think I am wrong?

*1 So they were friends.
*2 So did her machines that she provided to Wallgreens.

*3 That's aright then, because the author of this article met her in person and he is her friend and he thinks it is okay for entrepreneurs to get away with his sort of stuff and the courts make an exception.

*4 As I recall from a documentary in 2020 and employee interviews; it was not incredibly "advanced", from what I see it just had a motherboard in it (from what I see), robotic arms to handle the glass tubes and stuff to spin the liquid and blood but they complained of it being unsafe where the glass use to break easily. Also I remember them saying that they were being built after they got a deal from Wallgreens.

Joke: Bullshit buzzword *This technology... robots, arms and needles never existed before and can only be developed by her or someone like here, like it is magical inside nevermind how it works and change things for the sake of it had they got their way and continued operating.

*5 So because the author thinks she is "heroic" that makes her innocent.

*6 Is he saying, the witnesses who came forward, Erika Cheung, who made a deal with prosecutors to testify because she was being harassed by Holmes Lawyer Bois after she left the company, is all wrong and are effectively lying and so is Tyler Shultz?

*7 What about career criminals who were only setting out what they do in their minds?

*8 So he means she made it *look* like a better place though that turtle neck and image and her cliams. No she didn't she was living off of Theranos that paid for her lifestyle, her health and legal fee's before Fortress Investments put a CFO there in 2017 who put a stop to it and cut her off then she had a fit. Not very heroic was it?

She is heroic for her efforts, for all the challenges she has faced and pitfalls she has overcome to bring * this technology to us to change our world. It is not our proudest moment as a country when we take down one who has tried to do so much for us

Heroic? her efforts? I thought she was only successful because her backers believed her claims and invested money into her company.

*9 He compares her as being successful and the blood testing work. As I can understand she didn't give the world anything but a lab mockup of her vision, a blood testing machines that didn't work (despite being told many years earlier why it was not practical to do it at the present time by her own college) and she went ahead and then later lied that it worked properly when it didn't.

*10 How can he compare to her other entrepreneurs?
Did they sell knowingly inaccurate blood testing services to the public.

*11 I see so he and his partner backed the project.

*12 They may do but from what i gather they did no checks and just happen to believe and invest in her.

She puts on an image of Steve Jobs with that black turtle neck, but did he deceive investors? I read something that after his comeback to Apple employers were afraid of using the lifts incase he met and sacked them if he found they had something to do with his redundancy. At least he came up with something valuable with his operating system before running out of money.

companies like Skype, Baidu, Robinhood, Tesla, SpaceX, Hotmail, and many others that were not so successful ,

Not successful? Well didn't Microsoft buy out Skype, and Hotmail renamed to Outlook to go with their Office 365 package. Doesn't mean they failed. So because Elizabeth Holmes put out a good image is he saying that automatically means she is successful and her blood testing machines worked?

I don't see anything wrong in someone spending a lifetime studying and pursuing something even if it may never work but for anyone to justify what she did was acceptable with what she put her staff through and the blood testing and I think this article came out of his backside.

What do you think?

[Nominal Animal]

So because Elizabeth Holmes put out a good image is he saying that automatically means she is successful and her blood testing machines worked?

No, he is saying that in this day and age, content and actions do not matter, only appearances and emotions matter.  He is saying that because Elizabeth Holmes put out a good image and claimed to mean well, being a young attractive female, it does not matter whether her blood testing machines worked or not: she should be considered successful and good anyway.

[SiliconWizard]

So because Elizabeth Holmes put out a good image is he saying that automatically means she is successful and her blood testing machines worked?

No, he is saying that in this day and age, content and actions do not matter, only appearances and emotions matter.  He is saying that because Elizabeth Holmes put out a good image and claimed to mean well, being a young attractive female, it does not matter whether her blood testing machines worked or not: she should be considered successful and good anyway.

Add to that the fact that it's been seen as a virtue to praise women entrepreneurs.

She's taken advantage of all that while deceiving people, and it's bad. But I'll still persist in saying that those who have fallen for this due to the above reasons are every bit as responsible as she is.

[fourfathom]

So because Elizabeth Holmes put out a good image is he saying that automatically means she is successful and her blood testing machines worked?

No, he is saying that in this day and age, content and actions do not matter, only appearances and emotions matter.  He is saying that because Elizabeth Holmes put out a good image and claimed to mean well, being a young attractive female, it does not matter whether her blood testing machines worked or not: she should be considered successful and good anyway.

What he is saying is "Don't sue me for losing the money you invested in my VC fund, because you knew it was risky when you signed up."  And it's a bunch of self-serving rationalization.  Basically "crap".

Plus what Nominal points out.

[MrMobodies]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/theranos-elizabeth-holmes-jail-appeal-b2317981.html

News World Americas US Crime News
Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes will be jailed this month after judge denies plea for bail during appeal
Holmes must self-report to a prison camp on 27 April to begin her 11.25-year sentence
Graeme Massie, Los Angeles, Tuesday 11 April 2023 19:23

Ex-Theranos executive headed to prison after losing appeal

Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes will be jailed by the end of the month after a judge refused her request to remain out of prison while she appeals her conviction.

Holmes must self-report to a prison camp on 27 April to begin the 11.25-year sentence she was handed after a jury convicted her on multiple counts of defrauding investors in her blood-testing start-up. The former Silicon Valley darling was found guilty last November on three charges of wire fraud and one conspiracy charge. A jury was told how she had duped investors with false claims that her California company’s technology could diagnose diseases with only a few drops of blood.

Her lawyers had asked US District Judge Edward Davila to allow Holmes to remain on house arrest while she appeals the conviction to the 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals. They argued that she was not a threat to her community or a flight risk as she has two young children, reported Reuters. But prosecutors told the judge that she was a flight risk given her means to leave the US and her long prison sentence.

The federal government has previously claimed that Holmes booked a one-way flight to Mexico following her conviction and that she does present a flight risk. Her attorneys argued that she and her partner Billy Evans were planning to attend a wedding and hoped she would be acquitted. “Booking international travel plans for a criminal defendant in anticipation of a complete defence victory is a bold move, and the failure to promptly cancel those plans after a guilty verdict is a perilously careless oversight,” the judge wrote.

The judge ruled that even if her appeal was successful it would not result in a new trial or reverse all of the convictions against her.

He has previously turned down multiple requests from Holmes for a new trial.

Holmes started Theranos after dropping out of Stanford University, but the company collapsed in 2018 after it was revealed that its technology did not work.

Joke: She'll be jailed in her luxury camp.

[EEVblog]

Joke: She'll be jailed in her luxury camp.

This is the place the judge recommended:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Prison_Camp,_Bryan
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-04-12/theranos-elizabeth-holmes-loses-bid-to-stay-out-of-prison/102211402
Minimum security for non-violent offenders, frequency family visit, etc, pretty cushy. She can plan future schemes with the other fraud inmates.
https://au.finance.yahoo.com/video/district-judge-proposes-elizabeth-holmes-212308010.html

[floobydust]

That jail has many other scammers just like her. She can buy friends.  Over 11 year sentence there?

Psychopaths I've known have extremely low EQ.
You know, the thing thing inside that says "let's run a multi-billion dollar scam" is a bad idea.
You know, the thing thing inside that says "you're charged with a felony, let me book plane tickets" is a bad idea.
They are totally baffled by human emotions and feel nothing much, so they learn to fake emotional responses in order to fit in.
Her lawyers are surely making extra money by playing her, appeals galore. Because she doesn't really "get" what will not work, babies included.
She seems very afraid of jail.

[james_s]

Well if she does show up again with another scam, I'm going to have difficulty feeling sorry for any of the victims. Everyone should know what they're dealing with by now.

[EEVblog]

She seems very afraid of jail.

I wonder if she'll keep the fake deep voice? 

[EEVblog]

https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/bry/
The prison handbook she'll get:
https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/bry/bry_ao_handbook.pdf?v=1.0.0

[tom66]

Well if she does show up again with another scam, I'm going to have difficulty feeling sorry for any of the victims. Everyone should know what they're dealing with by now.

Yes, at this point, surely no one can fall for her scam again. Right?!

Then again, I'm reminded of the famous preacher Peter Popoff, who the late James Randi exposed as having had his wife radio information to his earpiece during his "miracle cure" sessions, managed to make a reappearance.  And he's bigger than ever.

So maybe, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, doesn't always apply.

[MrMobodies]

https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/bry/bry_ao_handbook.pdf?v=1.0.0

Western Union Quick Collect Program
Inmates' families and friends may also send inmates funds through Western Union's Quick Collect
Program. All funds sent via Western Union's Quick Collect will be posted to the inmate's account
within two to four hours, when those funds are sent between 7:00 a.m. and 9:00 p.m. EST (seven
days per week, including holidays). Funds received after 9:00 pm EST will be posted by 7:00 am
EST the following morning. Funds sent to an inmate through the Quick Collect Program may be
sent via one of the following ways:
1) At an agent location with cash: The inmate's family or friends must complete a Quick Collect
Form. To find the nearest agent, they may call 1-800-325-6000 or go to www.westernunion.com.
2) By phone using a credit/debit card: The inmate's family or friends may simply call 1-800-634-
3422 and press option 2.
3) ONLINE using a credit/debit card: The inmate's family and friends may go to
www.westernunion.com and select "Quick Collect".
For each Western Union Quick Collect transaction, the following information must be provided:
1) Valid Inmate Eight-Digit Register Number (entered with no spaces or dashes) followed
immediately by Inmate’s Last Name
2) Committed Inmate Full Name entered on Attention Line
3) Code City: FBOP, DC

She'll have lots of funds available from her new family.

TRULINCS
The Trust Fund Limited Inmate Computer System (TRULINCS) is the inmate computer network
that provides inmates access to multiple services. At no time do the inmates have any access to
the Internet.

Inmate’s access dedicated TRULINCS workstations installed in various housing units and
common areas to perform various functions using their register number, Phone Access Code
(PAC), and Commissary Personal Identification Number (PIN). Inmate access to these
workstations varies depending on the institution.
Account Transactions – This service allows inmates to search and view their Commissary,
telephone, and TRULINCS account transactions, as well as, view their Media List.
Bulletin Board – This service is used to supplement the use of inmate bulletin boards within the
institution for disseminating information to the inmate population.
Contact List - This service is used by inmates to manage their email address list, telephone list,
and postal mailing list. Inmates also mark for print postal mailing labels within this service.
If an email address is entered for a contact, TRULINCS sends a system generated message to the
contact directing them to www.corrlinks.com to accept or reject email contact with the inmate
prior to receiving any messages from the inmate.

Equipped with equipment.

Inmate Attire: Inmates will be properly dressed when engaging in a video session. At a
minimum, inmates are required to be in un-altered local proper government issued clothing
(Khakis, Greens, Jump Suit, etc.). Altered, ripped, torn, frayed, unbuttoned, or any other form of
apparel of a suggestive or revealing nature is prohibited. No hats other than approved Religious
articles or non-prescription sunglasses are permitted during video sessions.
TRULINCS Video Service Fact Sheet

Maybe she could be star of the show.

OPEN HOUSE HOURS
*Note: Special Holiday schedules may necessitate time changes for some events.
Commissary
Monday – Thursday 6:30 A.M. - 7:30 A.M.
10:30 A.M. - 12:30 A.M.
2:00 P.M. - 3:15 P.M.
Short Line Sales (Tuesday and Thursday only) 1:00 P.M. - 2:00 P.M.
Trust Fund/Inmate Services
Open House is conducted Monday, and Wednesday 11:15 P.M. - 12:00 P.M.
Located at the Trust Fund Specialist Office in the Visiting Room.
Services provided include: V-Pin, PAC numbers,
TRULINCS pin numbers, Trust Fund related account inquiries.

Laundry
Institution 6:30 A.M. - 8:00 A.M.
Monday – Friday
*Clothing Exchange* Monday and Friday Only
Linens & Pillowcases Every Wednesday
Blankets Every Wednesday (Unit Rotation)
**Hygiene items will be issued to indigent inmates every Wednesday between 6:30 am and 8:00 am.
Records Office and Mailroom Open House
Tuesday and Thursday 11:30 A.M. - 12:30 P.M.
(excluding the day following a Federal holiday)
Mail Call in Units
Monday – Friday 6:00 P.M. and 9:00 P.M
No mail call on Federal Holidays

Lights-Out
Monday – Friday 10:30 P.M.
Weekends/Federal holidays 11:30 P.M.

Visiting Hours 18
Saturday and Sunday - 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m.
(All visitors must arrive by 3:00 P.M. for processing)
Federal Holidays - 8:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m.
(All visitors must arrive by 1:00 P.M. for processing)

*Study, Game, and Laundry Rooms and Television Operating Hours
Sunday – Thursday 6:00 A.M. - 9:30 P.M.
Friday, Saturday, and evenings
prior to Federal holidays 6:00 A.M. - 11:30 P.M

Food Service Meal Times
Monday thru Friday
Breakfast: 6:30 am – 7:15 am
Lunch: 10:30 am – 11:30 am
Dinner: 4:30 pm – 5:30 pm (start time depends on what time the 4:05 pm count clears)
Weekend / Holidays
Breakfast: 7:00 am – 8:00 am
Lunch: 10:30 am – 11:30 am (start time depends on what time the 10:00 am count clears)
Dinner: 4:30 pm – 5:30 pm (start time depends on what time the 4:05 pm count clears)

Study, game and laundry for 5 days a week over 13 hours a day.
Lots of things to do.

Wellness Programs
Wellness programs include screening, assessments, goal setting, fitness/nutrition prescriptions and
counseling.

So they look after their prisoners very well.

Escorted Trip
Escorted trips provide approved inmates with staff escorted trips into the community for such
purposes as receiving medical treatment not otherwise available, for visiting a critically ill member
of the inmate’s immediate family, or for participating in programs or work related functions.
Additionally, bedside visits and funeral trips may be authorized for inmates with custody levels
below maximum. **All expenses will be borne by the inmate, except for the first eight hours of
each day that the employee is on duty. There are occasions based on a determination that the
perceived danger to BOP staff during the proposed visit is too great, or the security concerns about
the individual inmate outweigh the need to visit the community.

Very compassionate for a prisoners to go on trips.
Sounds to me very cosy for a prison but of course she may not appreciate it for the living expectations and lifestyle she is used to.
 

Psychology Services
Psychology Services departments in all BOP institutions offer basic mental health care to
inmates. This care may include screening, assessment and treatment of mental health or drug
abuse problems, individual and/or group counseling, psycho-educational classes, self-help and
supportive services, or referral to Health Services for medical treatment of a mental illness.

Hopefully they will work on her before she leaves.

[SiliconWizard]

Well if she does show up again with another scam, I'm going to have difficulty feeling sorry for any of the victims. Everyone should know what they're dealing with by now.

I do not feel sorry for any of the current ones already (except the patients that would have been misled by a false test result, but certainly not the investors), but I think I've been clear about it all along.

[floobydust]

[...] Hopefully they will work on her before she leaves.

These kind of people are simply missing a chip in their head, and no amount of "counseling" fixes that. The notion that humans are infinitely malleable and can change, is a New Age/psychology myth.
When they get out of prison, they really don't like the experience but have the same core behaviour. The incentive, what they've learned -  is to not get caught again.
I know this after picking up my buddy from prison, after the bank robbery didn't work out. He hates prison and the cops, but still a basic thug at heart and continues the same behaviours, weapons included.
What I found bizarre is coming out of prison after 4 years, took him to McDonalds and he was freaking out. Anyone that looked at or stared at him, he was convinced a fight was going to happen and he should probably kill them. FFS eat your burger I told him. (men's) prison culture can make a person (socially) worse, overreactive, more violent.

I don't see any inmates with such a long (11 year) sentence at that prison Holmes is going to. It will be interesting to see how much time she'll actually end up doing.

Martin Shkreli "Pharma Bro" was sentenced to 7 years, served 4. Launched his own cryptocurrency "got hacked", and he got in trouble for a drug discovery business... despite his pharma ban. Still the same core person.

[james_s]

Yeah there are aspects of people that are malleable, and some hardware faults can be reasonably managed with medications, but even with those you are really only managing the symptoms. The deeper stuff like cluster B personality disorders are a very low level flaw in the way the brain developed in early childhood, the amygdala is malformed and while they are capable of being taught coping mechanisms and they can learn how to appear "normal", you can't teach a person to feel empathy when the hardware for it is not connected. It's unfortunate that it isn't easier to identify, given the harm these people nearly inevitably do I think it would be nice if they could be permanently isolated away from the rest of society but that's wishful thinking.

[EEVblog]

I don't see any inmates with such a long (11 year) sentence at that prison Holmes is going to. It will be interesting to see how much time she'll actually end up doing.

She'll be out in 5 I wager.

[floobydust]

Think about it - go to uni for 5 years, work hard get a degree and be wagie working for the man for the rest of your life. Engineers are always to blame for the product being late, flog them and hire new ones.
OR run a big ticket scam, launder some of the loot and stash it away, and get out of jail in 5 years or less for the crime. Come out a multi-millionaire and set for life. Bubba was an unpleasant roommate but it paid off.
It's not a terrible choice for many. Where investor's money went at Theranos- I haven't seen the bulk of it accounted for. She's got wads of cash for lawyers.

With no screening of politicians or CEO's, psychopathy does incredible damage to countries, companies. Newer data pegs the prevalence at 8-12% of CEO's despite being 1% of the population. I think testing should be done, just as it is done by police, FBI.

[BravoV]

Remember, in the land of free, America, rich people do not get jailed. 

[EEVblog]

Where investor's money went at Theranos- I haven't seen the bulk of it accounted for. She's got wads of cash for lawyers.

They did have around 800 employees at one point, and in silicon valley. So huge wage cost base.
But if she had any brains at all knowing this was a scam, she would have squirreled away millions into trusts etc while she could.

[HighVoltage]

Where investor's money went at Theranos- I haven't seen the bulk of it accounted for. She's got wads of cash for lawyers.

They did have around 800 employees at one point, and in silicon valley. So huge wage cost base.
But if she had any brains at all knowing this was a scam, she would have squirreled away millions into trusts etc while she could.

1. I think it is clear from her perspective, she is the victim here.
2. Also, I am convinced that she still believes that this was not a scam and her "technology" worked.
"Squirreled away millions" ? I don't think so either. If my first two points are true in any way, she does not have the smart brains for money as well.

[MrMobodies]

I wonder if she'll keep the fake deep voice? 

What will the prison psychology department think the moment they hear her putting on that voice:
What is she up to?
Has she formed or joined a gang where they get brainwashed listening to her (where her voice gets deeper and deeper the more they get taken in by it) and then they start doing what she tells them to do and for what purpose?

[floobydust]

She could make money with it lol. That deep voice would be great for ChatGPT. @jessicard
"for those asking how I made it!
python, usb mic & usb speaker on a rasp pi.
code:
py speech recognition lib for audio, then @OpenAI’s whisper library for speech->text, then chatgpt, text->speech w/  @narakeet for voice ai, then play it through speaker with pydub playback"

Imagine celebrity, famous criminals, voices on your AI, now in the comfort of your living room.


Sunny Balwani got a 13 year sentence, he's also still free on bail. Using the same trick of filing appeals to delay the inevitable and for people to forget the severity of the crimes.

[Buriedcode]

Yeah there are aspects of people that are malleable, and some hardware faults can be reasonably managed with medications, but even with those you are really only managing the symptoms. The deeper stuff like cluster B personality disorders are a very low level flaw in the way the brain developed in early childhood, the amygdala is malformed and while they are capable of being taught coping mechanisms and they can learn how to appear "normal", you can't teach a person to feel empathy when the hardware for it is not connected. It's unfortunate that it isn't easier to identify, given the harm these people nearly inevitably do I think it would be nice if they could be permanently isolated away from the rest of society but that's wishful thinking.

Well thats psychopathy isn't it? And she clearly isn't a psychopath, perhaps a sociopath, but I'm not sure where you're going with all this.  And advocating for people being "isolated" is franky disturbing.

[coppice]

Well thats psychopathy isn't it? And she clearly isn't a psychopath, perhaps a sociopath, but I'm not sure where you're going with all this.

What makes that so clear?

[SiliconWizard]

And who cares?

[magic]

You can sort of begin to understand thought patterns of clusterfuck B types if you spend a few years living with one, but it's also likely you're crazy yourselft if you actually do that, don't ask me how I know

Psychiatry is quack science and hardly any solid understanding of how the brain works really exists as of yet. Maybe for the better - can't wait to see what happens when people start to seriously monkey with that stuff, beyond the level of just "here, take this drug and see what happens". A load of fun anticipated.


Elizabeth Holmes, like Hillary Clinton, was a gullible chick brainwashed by her environment to be more ambitious than she could realistically afford too. Also stupidly conformist and going along with the most unethical bullshit with little reservations. THB I can't even hate them, I just hate America. I agree with feminists that it's always the fault of men.

[james_s]

Well thats psychopathy isn't it? And she clearly isn't a psychopath, perhaps a sociopath, but I'm not sure where you're going with all this.  And advocating for people being "isolated" is franky disturbing.

If you'd dealt with people that have cluster B disorders you might not find the desire to isolate (or eliminate) them to be quite so disturbing, certainly dealing with them can be disturbing. Lack of empathy shows up in more than just psychopaths. I've known several people with BPD and NPD, they are snakes, maybe not deliberately but they are none the less. I hope for your sake that you don't have the misfortune to tangle with one, many people have dated borderlines and ended up with PTSD that required years of therapy to get over. Some people are simply broken, they cannot be repaired, they are incapable of being good people, they are often highly intelligent and very capable of faking it to get what they want, and have absolutely zero qualms about doing so. They are cold, calculating and manipulative.

[magic]

If you'd dealt with people that have cluster B disorders you might not find the desire to isolate (or eliminate) them to be quite so disturbing, certainly dealing with them can be disturbing. Lack of empathy shows up in more than just psychopaths.

Yeah, nerds come to mind

If you have empathy you will spot a psychopath or narcissist right away and recognize that exploiting the manic cycle of a borderliner rewards you with an anger cycle like night follows day.

[james_s]

If you have empathy you will spot a psychopath or narcissist right away and recognize that exploiting the manic cycle of a borderliner rewards you with an anger cycle like night follows day.

That's not true at all. It's very difficult to spot one, most are very good at hiding it, psychopaths in particular are notorious for being very charming and likable people. All of these disordered people tend to "mask" for a while, it can be several months of hanging out with them before the mask starts to slip and they show their true selves. Sooner or later yes, it's easy to spot one, but by then the damage has often been done.

[magic]

Well, I have heard it many times and I don't believe it.

All my serious interactions with toxic people were either being born into family I didn't get to choose or deciding to put up with them for the time being due to other considerations. Some of those decisions were poor in retrospect, but I approximately knew what I was getting myself into.

I never struggled with telling apart charming from sleazy, even the sort of sleazy that fooled some gullible people, or those who were simply lazy because it wasn't them who suffered from being enablers.

They slip more often than they think they do. Little shitty things they do or say to others, which perhaps don't mean too much in isolation, but quickly add up if one pays attention to detail. A lot can be learned from reactions of others who know the suspect for a long time, even if they aren't willing to talk openly.

Don't be afraid to be judgmental. The most manipulative narcissist and pathological liar I have ever seen (the sort of guy who lies so much and so elaborately that he sometimes gets lost and honestly believes shit he had fabricated a week prior) I hated since the moment I saw his artificially pleasing face the first time. Throw out all that liberal brainwashing and learn to trust your gut.

IME most victims and enablers are simply lazy, ignorant, willingly blind, acting out of desperation, or getting out-exploited by somebody they tried to exploit themselves. Whom I don't blame are those born into pathology, this can be sad indeed.

[Nominal Animal]

If you have empathy you will spot a psychopath or narcissist right away and recognize that exploiting the manic cycle of a borderliner rewards you with an anger cycle like night follows day.

That's not true at all. It's very difficult to spot one, most are very good at hiding it, psychopaths in particular are notorious for being very charming and likable people. All of these disordered people tend to "mask" for a while, it can be several months of hanging out with them before the mask starts to slip and they show their true selves. Sooner or later yes, it's easy to spot one, but by then the damage has often been done.

I fully agree with james_s here.

Also, it is much easier to detect a manipulator when they interact with someone else, and do not notice yourself.  That is, it is much, much easier to detect a manipulator when observing them without interacting with them directly.

[Nominal Animal]

IME most victims and enablers are simply lazy, ignorant, willingly blind, acting out of desperation, or getting out-exploited by somebody they tried to exploit themselves. Whom I don't blame are those born into pathology, this can be sad indeed.

I am easily manipulated in face-to-face.  I only realize it having happened afterwards, when I wind down (the same day).  I know a few others who are similar.  I do not know if this is cultural/upbringing, or something genetic, or what.

The main difference to me is whether one gets manipulated by the same person repeatedly; and most importantly, whether one admits having been manipulated.
In my experience, anyone and everyone can be fooled at least once, so I cannot and will not blame the victim for that.

But when the victim refuses to admit having been manipulated, especially if in the face of clear proof, my empathy tends to dry out quite quickly.  That attitude leads to pathological results.

getting out-exploited by somebody they tried to exploit themselves

Greed, like those actually answering to emails from Nigerian Princes looking to invest huge sums of money, is outside my empathy.
Just like Elizabeth Holmes' exploits.
I'd like both sides of such exploits to lose money.

The borderline to me is romance exploits: "I'm stuck in X, and need to borrow a few k$", etc.
On one hand, they're so well publicized that everyone should be aware of the pattern.  On the other hand, it is exactly their willingness to help those they perceive to be their close ones that is being exploited.

[SiliconWizard]

Well, I have heard it many times and I don't believe it.

It 100% depends on the person who is interacting with the "toxic"/manipulative one - usually the "narcissistic pervert" type.
Some people can easily spot them and avoid getting trapped, while others are totally unable to.
Also, whether the manipulative person is a close one or not matters a lot. It can be very hard to escape them if it's a close relationship with emotional ties.

Now when the only tie is a financial one, there is less excuse.

But all in alll, the same mechanism may be at play. You're letting the other person manipulate you in the hope of getting something valuable in return (be it affection, recognition, sex, money...), even if inconsciously.

We're always responsible of our own reactions and behaviors. But sometimes they are hard to control, and some people are very good at taking advantage of this.

[floobydust]

It's that the psychopaths aggressively claw their way to the top of a corporation, taking total control. They have an incessant need to be #1 in power and control.
Once you've got one as the boss, along with mortgage payments and bills to pay, family to support- you're gonna assume the position and take it.
Not all victims have choice or choose these bastards in their life. Newer research is over 12% of CEO's are psychopaths.

[james_s]

Frankly I'm surprised the estimate is as low as 12%.

That said, there are a lot of related conditions that show overlapping traits without necessarily being a full on psychopath. Narcissistic personality disorder is common and narcissistic traits are even more common.

[EEVblog]

getting out-exploited by somebody they tried to exploit themselves

Greed, like those actually answering to emails from Nigerian Princes looking to invest huge sums of money, is outside my empathy.
Just like Elizabeth Holmes' exploits.
I'd like both sides of such exploits to lose money.

In this case the investors were supposedly "sophisticated" investors. They should have done more due dilligence.
The odds of a 19/20yo student cracking a problem deemed impractical by everyone in the industry is borderline zero.
uBeam was exactly the same thing. Once that media hype train starts, it just gains momentum, until the wheels eventually fall off the billy cart.

[Nominal Animal]

getting out-exploited by somebody they tried to exploit themselves

Greed, like those actually answering to emails from Nigerian Princes looking to invest huge sums of money, is outside my empathy.
Just like Elizabeth Holmes' exploits.
I'd like both sides of such exploits to lose money.

In this case the investors were supposedly "sophisticated" investors. They should have done more due dilligence.
The odds of a 19/20yo student cracking a problem deemed impractical by everyone in the industry is borderline zero.
uBeam was exactly the same thing. Once that media hype train starts, it just gains momentum, until the wheels eventually fall off the billy cart.

Agreed.  I have no empathy towards those investors losing money either: they didn't do the job they get paid to do.  Any monkey can follow the hype and do whatever everyone else is doing.

[MrMobodies]

Here they go again:
https://news.sky.com/story/theranos-founder-elizabeth-holmes-appeals-against-unjust-conviction-for-blood-testing-scam-as-jail-date-approaches-12861645

Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes appeals against 'unjust' conviction for blood-testing scam as jail date approaches
Thursday 20 April 2023 10:51, UK

Elizabeth Holmes has launched an appeal against what her lawyers say is an "unjust" conviction over the Theranos scandal.
...
She has now filed an appeal against her conviction, arguing the case against her "parroted the public narrative" that she knowingly and intentionally misrepresented to investors the capabilities of Theranos technology.

* "Theranos' groundbreaking  developments received many patents. And in 2015 the U.S. Food & Drug Administration (FDA) approved an assay on Theranos' proprietary   technology," the filing continued.

** The lawyers also argued the government committed violations during its prosecution, which the judged "indulged" as he "abus[ed]    his discretion, according to the filing.

*** They argued key excluded testimony from Holmes' co-defendant, Sunny Balwani, implicated Balwani in running the company's finances.

The jury's guilty verdict for Holmes was "unjust"  , the lawyers wrote.

**** If they are not successful in getting a new trial, Holmes and her lawyers are also seeking a reduction to her sentence, which they called "severe" and erroneously decided.

"Theranos' groundbreaking developments received many patents. And in 2015 the U.S. Food & Drug Administration (FDA) approved an assay on Theranos' proprietary   technology," the filing continued.

* I thought that was only one test they approved. (So she is claiming that the technology "worked" because the FDA approved of a test.)

** I thought the judge was taken in by her and her legal team granting her access to some luxury prison with no barriers with outside visits and activities to keep them occupied all day long and services that look after their mental health.

*** So they try to divert the blame to Balwani. (It's not fair, the judge is biased, it's Balwani's fault etc)

Joke: **** Maybe it's time for the courts to recognize that she and her legal team are just taking the p*ss and whatever liberties they can get out of the system and just bang Elizabeth Holmes up in a normal prison like everybody else that is known to be unjust and unfair so she can really see what unjust and unfair is like.

[magic]

In this case the investors were supposedly "sophisticated" investors. They should have done more due dilligence.
The odds of a 19/20yo student cracking a problem deemed impractical by everyone in the industry is borderline zero.
uBeam was exactly the same thing. Once that media hype train starts, it just gains momentum, until the wheels eventually fall off the billy cart.

Agreed.  I have no empathy towards those investors losing money either: they didn't do the job they get paid to do.

You need to learn more about how "just doing the job you are paid to do" perpetuates systemic bias and is antithetical to American Dream™ and Social Justice™.
Also, insert something about Progress™, Disruption™ and Paradigm Shift™ here.


Besides, if you think about it honestly, Facebook is complete shit and its beginnings were even more retarded and yet those who invested in it are billionaires

[Ed.Kloonk]

Well, to be fair there is(was!) so much money floating around in silicon valley that, like bad gamblers, it's only the big wins that you hear about. The dirty secret is they hedge in just about anything that has a heartbeat and if it's a dud it becomes a tax write-off against the big wins.

These duped investors rely on their successful reputation and spend a lot of PR dollars on protecting that image. The prosecution's instance that these people help throw her under the bus is not helpful to them. They don't care about the punishment, they just want the story to go away.

That said, with the high profile of the case, the media will portray any justice as a injustice. 

[Kjelt]

The odds of a 19/20yo student cracking a problem deemed impractical by everyone in the industry is borderline zero.

I don't know, IMO it depends on the person.
The human brain attains peak processing power and memory around age 18.
The chance that brilliant uniquely out of the box thinking, not being influenced with school programmed or academic boxing of how you should think and what is impossible has in the past lead to new ways of thinking and new theories from young persons. Mathematicians, physicists enough that really peaked in their late teens early twenties.

https://irisreading.com/at-what-age-is-your-brain-the-sharpest-4-tips-to-sustain-it-over-time/

[mendip_discovery]

To the ones running the funds it's a risk they take but it's often not with thier money. The money comes from savings, pensions etc etc. So when money like this gets squandered away and stolen by people it's not the ones at the top who suffer it's the ones lower down who get told that thier pension hasn't performed as well as expected and you will now have to keep on working.

At the end of the day she was convicted of a crime and that crime comes with a punishment. One which she is trying to use her finances to wriggle out of having to do. Would she have had children if it wasnt a stalling technique? The legal system can be a rather odd one at time, get caught stealing so you can feed your family, prison! Steal billions and its 1 year of house arrest but you can live in the 5 million pound mansion you bought with the money you stole. The UK has powers that allow them to recover the money but so far it's not worked out too well, it happens just takes so long to prove that most of the time they just drop it.

[MrMobodies]

At the end of the day she was convicted of a crime and that crime comes with a punishment. One which she is trying to use her finances to wriggle out of having to do.

Joke: If successful of getting out of her sentence that could be a Theranos groundbreaking development and put all the blame on Balwani who put $13 million of his savings as a loan in it as well.

https://news.crunchbase.com/health-wellness-biotech/sunny-balwani-theranos-trial/#:~:text=He helped run CommerceBid.com,was a secret, kind of.

He helped run CommerceBid.com, which was acquired for around $228 million in cash and stock in 1999.
...
Balwani received shares of the company, which he sold for more than $40 million
...
He loaned Holmes $13 million in the early days of Theranos.

https://nypost.com/2023/04/19/elizabeth-holmes-asks-judge-to-reduce-11-year-sentence/

Elizabeth Holmes asks judge to reduce 11-year sentence before heading to prison
By Ariel Zilber, April 19, 2023 12:21pm

Elizabeth Holmes’ attorneys are demanding that the disgraced Theranos founder be given a new trial or have her prison sentence reduced because they were prevented from presenting “compelling evidence.”

I thought they delayed things by demanding the prosecutors for documents they had wait for and now they are saying they were prevented from presenting their evidence despite the time they had.

— claimed that they were prevented from bringing up exculpatory statements from another convicted fraudster, Ramesh “Sunny” Balwani, her former boyfriend who was also president of Theranos.

“Balwani’s testimony is compelling evidence corroborating Holmes’s defense that she did not intend to defraud investors with the financial projections or conspire with Balwani to do so,” the attorneys wrote in the court filing.

I see, "Balwani did it, defrauded investors, point the blame on Ramesh Balwani instead for a lesser sentence."

If it is so unfair and unjust, maybe they should offer her a choice, that luxury fence-less prison or a normal prison.

[EEVblog]

Tomorrow is the day, right?

[coppice]

Tomorrow is the day, right?

For most valid values of "tomorrow" it is definitely a day.

[MrMobodies]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11999945/Elizabeth-Holmes-seen-fianc-son-newborn-daughter-Invicta-ahead-prison-sentence.html

By ALAN BUTTERFIELD, IN SAN DIEGO, FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

PUBLISHED: 16:16, 25 April 2023 | UPDATED: 19:57, 25 April 2023

DailyMail.com found Holmes and Evans, 31, with their children spending their last few days together as family this week before she starts her sentence next Thursday.

A source in the neighborhood told DailyMail.com that Elizabeth has been putting a brave face on as she hopes against hope that a last-ditch bid will keep her out of prison – at least in the immediate future.

'She is very stoic on the outside, pretending like she doesn't have a care in the world, but on the inside she's got to be miserable,' said the insider.

Got to be joking. They call that "a brave face" whist trying to avoid not only a normal tough prison but the sentence altogether.
It doesn't take "a brave face" to go to court it takes money which many may not have and her new family has plenty of it.
Is she not representing herself in court? I thought it is the lawyers that are fighting for her not herself.

I'd like to see what brave face she'd have in a normal prison sentence.

[MrMobodies]

What a joke:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12012999/Elizabeth-Holmes-seen-spending-time-family-avoids-prison-tomorrow.html

EXCLUSIVE: Last minute reprieve! Elizabeth Holmes is seen walking barefoot on the beach with her husband and beloved babies as she AVOIDS reporting to prison tomorrow after court grants her appeal

EXCLUSIVE: Last minute reprieve! Elizabeth Holmes is seen walking barefoot on the beach with her husband and beloved babies as she AVOIDS reporting to prison tomorrow after court grants her appeal
Elizabeth Holmes, 39, has managed to avoid reporting to prison Thursday after her motion to remain free while her appeal is processed was granted today  DailyMail.com photos show the fraudster had been savoring her final moments with partner Billy Evans and their two children William, 2, and newborn Invicta Holmes was scheduled to leave her $9m beachside home for a federal lock-up most likely in Bryan, Texas on Thursday, before getting a last-minute reprieve
By ALAN BUTTERFIELD IN SAN DIEGO and KAREN RUIZ FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

PUBLISHED: 18:58, 26 April 2023 | UPDATED: 19:30, 26 April 2023

Elizabeth Holmes has managed to temporarily avoid prison after being granted a last-minute reprieve just a day before she was scheduled to start her 11-year sentence.  The convicted fraudster, who has been holding out hope that her jail stint will be delayed after making several attempts to overturn her conviction, finally scored a legal victory Wednesday when the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals agreed to stay her prison reporting date.

Holmes's lawyers filed a motion late Tuesday challenging District Court Judge Edward Davila's April 11 decision to deny her release while she appeals her guilty verdict, citing 'numerous, inexplicable errors' in the ruling.  The 11th-hour move means the Theranos founder will remain free on bail while the court considers her case.

Up until now, the mom-of-two had been putting on a brave face ahead of her sentence, going about her daily life as if nothing is bothering her. She and partner Billy Evans were seen doing everything they can to ensure that life goes on as normally as possible right up to the time she must swap her designer duds for a prison jumpsuit.

Holmes was scheduled to leave her $9million beachside home in San Diego and  give herself up to federal authorities by 2 pm Thursday to begin her sentence at a federal lock-up most likely 1,800 miles away in Bryan, Texas.  DailyMail.com caught up with the couple in the SoCal city on Tuesday afternoon as they walked their kids barefoot near their home.  Hotel heir Evans carried son William, 2, while Holmes carefully snuggled tiny Invicta, the daughter she gave birth to in February.

Perhaps showing her state of mind, the couple named the little girl after the Latin word for invincible. It can also mean unconquered. Holmes had previously asked Judge Edward Davila to delay her prison-start date until after all appeals have been exhausted, but those attempts had been denied up until Wednesday, when the Ninth Court of Appeals approved her motion.  The legal tactic deployed by Holmes mirrored a move made last month by her former lover and subordinate, Ramesh 'Sunny' Balwani, to avoid a prison reporting date of March 16. After the Ninth Circuit rejected his appeal three weeks later, Davila set a new reporting date of April 20.

* She is however facing potentially even more bad news with a new class action suit filed against Theranos and Walgreens Wednesday.

Evans is expected to move into a new $3million townhouse that is across the street from the ocean once she begins her prison sentence  As DailyMail.com reported Tuesday, Holmes and her multi-millionaire partner Billy had been spending as much time as possible with their kids before she is locked up for 11 years.

On Friday, the two were seen with an unidentified woman crossing the street from their beachfront mansion to the San Diego townhouse Billy and their two toddlers are planning on living in after she reports to prison. Elizabeth wore designer camo colored yoga pants, beige shirt and a straw hat.  Holmes's face was red except for around her eyes, it looked like had a sunburn.

Despite her unfortunate circumstances, she looked like she didn't have a worry in the world and even cracked a smile when at one point her friend showed her a picture on a cell phone. Evans had a bag slung across his shoulders, wearing blue jeans, T-shirt and carried a pink baby bouncer for their newborn. The unidentified friend had on a pink sun dress and straw hat.  The following day, the pair was seen during a grocery shopping trip at Whole Foods, this time without their children.

About an hour before, Elizabeth and Billy made their way over to the townhouse Elizabeth is not going to be living at, her parents were seen pushing their grandson, baby William in a blue toy cart across the street.  If by some minor miracle her current appeal is granted, and she can remain out on bail while her appeals are going through the court Elizabeth will join them. As previously reported by DailyMail.com, Billy is planning on raising their kids in a newly purchased $3million townhouse that is across the street from the ocean.

His parents bought the home for $3.25million last year just a month after Holmes had been convicted of four counts of wire fraud and conspiracy.  The townhouse has 1700 sq ft, 2 bedrooms, 3 bathrooms, two car garage in a gated community.  The background has sweeping views of the famous Del Mar racetrack.  Over the past several days, Billy's parents have been seen at the townhouse, moving in items and rearranging the furniture inside. Elizabeth has been seen at the townhouse on a number of occasions but is believed to have yet spend a night there.

The former Theranos CEO and her partner are seen leaving federal court in San Jose on March 17. She was convicted of four counts of wire fraud and conspiracy. Evans is from San Diego, he is heir to the Evans Hotel Group which manages three luxury hotels in the city, including the luxury five-star Lodge at Torrey Pines. He alone is reportedly worth $10million.

He has a younger brother, Rex who graduated from Cornell University, and younger sister, Gracie, who graduated from USC. Stanford dropout Holmes founded Theranos, when she was still a teenager in 2003, claiming she could revolutionize blood testing. Ten years later the value of the company shot up when it formed a partnership with Walgreens to offer in-store blood collection centers. By 2014 the company was said to be worth $9billion and Forbes ranked Holmes as the youngest self-made billionaire in the world.

But the following year an exhaustive investigation by the Wall Street Journal claimed Theranos's system provided false reports and revealed the company had been using commercially available machines from other companies for most of its testing, and Holmes was banned from operating a blood-testing service for two years. Lawsuits started flooding in and Theranos collapsed in scandal, eventually shuttering in 2018.

* Like that is going to make any difference to the leniency they are showing her here.

Past this point I think she could  continue stay out of prison and whilst that is happening she'd have a third child and go at everything else to stay out. It looks to me that they might even squash the conviction by the look of things.

[Nominal Animal]

newborn Invicta Holmes

She named her get-out-of-jail newborn daughter Invicta?

[SiliconWizard]

 

[Nominal Animal]

I wonder if Elizabeth Holmes' lawyer talked her out of naming her get-out-of-jail baby Filia Deae Super Leges Hominis, settling for Invicta.

[TimFox]

Presumably, "Invicta" is meant to be the female form of "Invictus", the famous poem by William Ernest Henley.

[MrMobodies]

newborn Invicta Holmes

She named her get-out-of-jail newborn daughter Invicta?

Making a joke of the system and I wonder what her third child will be called.

She also brought a pet dog she took to Theranos before she moved and named it after some other dog that apparently did a 600 mile journey in 1925.

SCAMS FEB. 21, 2019
Don’t Believe Anything Elizabeth Holmes Tells You About Her Dog
By Amanda Arnold@aMandolinz

After Elizabeth Holmes’s blood empire shuttered, but before she was hit with criminal fraud charges, the disgraced Theranos founder tried to get away with one last scam: convincing people that her dog, who pooped wherever he pleased, was a wolf.

In the fall of 2017 — while Theranos was under investigation by the FBI, the Department of Justice, and the Securities and Exchange Commission for fraud — Vanity Fair reports that Holmes flew first-class across the U.S. to adopt a 9-week-old Siberian husky. Before she even officially adopted him, she knew she would name him Balto, after the world-famous sled dog that made a dangerous 600-mile journey in 1925, bearing medicine to save an entire village from diphtheria, who is known for his perseverance in the face of adversity. (She apparently felt that this represented Theranos’ journey, which, okay.)

To Holmes, however, her Balto was no regular dog: Upon discovering that a small part of Siberian huskies’ genomes trace back to an ancient wolf, Holmes decided that her puppy, too, was actually a wolf. She would reportedly repeat this thoroughly unsubstantiated claim to anyone who asked her about Balto’s breed — something she apparently still does to this day.

But during his short time at Theranos headquarters, Balto did act like a wild animal. Per Vanity Fair, the headstrong dog would defiantly march through Theranos’ labs alongside Holmes, contaminating samples with his hair left and right. He also reportedly had regular habit of pooping and peeing all over the Theranos headquarters, which he’d shamelessly do in front of guests and in the middle of board meetings.

Balto may not technically be a wolf, but he sure lives like one.

https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2019/elizabeth-holmes-and-the-name-of-her-dog-or-maybe-her-wolf/

For Holmes, the dog represented the journey that lay ahead for Theranos. As she explained to colleagues at the company’s headquarters in Palo Alto.

Palto Alto... Balto... how creative.

3rd pass
1: Reappeal sentence.
2: Delay the court even more by asking the prosecutors for things that they have to wait for like documents.
3  Ask for sentence to be quashed.
4: Have another baby (2)
    Goto 1:

I saw a video on youtube once some years ago when someone was sentenced in court. They started criticizing the judge and jury but all they did was increased the sentence. With Elizabeth Holmes it seems the opposite, they seem to tolerate accusations made against themselves and all they do, give her reprieve from her sentence.

I think Holmes and her new family is effectively running the court putting the judge and jurors in "their places" where they want them them to be.

[AlbertL]

A last-minute reprieve, just as I expected.  She'll never serve a day in prison - and she knows it. 

[EEVblog]

A last-mnute reprieve, just as I expected.  She'll never serve a day in prison - and she knows it.

Yep:
https://au.news.yahoo.com/elizabeth-holmes-delays-start-prison-215255273.html

[james_s]

I'm pretty confident her life will fall apart anyway. I give her relationship a year, 2 max, untreated personality disordered people are unable to maintain longterm relationships. With any luck maybe she'll be hit by a bus.

[magic]

Not even sure what's more entertaining, the adventures of our American friends or all the salty dudes here

 

[mendip_discovery]

Not even sure what's more entertaining, the adventures of our American friends or all the salty dudes here

 

I would say given the money involved and the fact she has a $9 million mansion left over from it I guess it would get some annoyed. From what I gather white collar crime in America is fairly lenient so there is a chance she could get away with no jail time. I wonder if some of the saltiness is down to the "rich elite" getting away with stuff because the can afford people to get them out of trouble.

I'm just annoyed that a someone has been convicted of a crime and now they are trying to play the victim to get out of serving the punishment. This partly as I have that luck to be the kind of person who gets screwed over one lot of things but I just grumble about it and carry on.

[BravoV]

Happy judge ...   

[MrMobodies]

It is so far unclear when that ruling will come.

I think they made it unclear by slowing it down so much with the lawyers, Elizabeth and the children and demanding prosecutors for things that delay it.

But under the 9th US Circuit appeals court rules, Holmes' surrender has been automatically delayed until the court decides on her latest bid.

So it was inevitable.

I wonder what other things she could get out of the court of appeals.

I'm pretty confident her life will fall apart anyway. I give her relationship a year, 2 max, untreated personality disordered people are unable to maintain longterm relationships. With any luck maybe she'll be hit by a bus.

So maybe it is not a matter of how luxury a prison is but how long she can adhere to the routine.

[james_s]

I would say given the money involved and the fact she has a $9 million mansion left over from it I guess it would get some annoyed. From what I gather white collar crime in America is fairly lenient so there is a chance she could get away with no jail time. I wonder if some of the saltiness is down to the "rich elite" getting away with stuff because the can afford people to get them out of trouble.

I'm just annoyed that a someone has been convicted of a crime and now they are trying to play the victim to get out of serving the punishment. This partly as I have that luck to be the kind of person who gets screwed over one lot of things but I just grumble about it and carry on.

I'm salty about people getting away with crime in general. Over the past decade or so there has been a big push toward being soft on crime, and the result has not surprisingly been a massive increase in crime. Of course the stats lie because part of that softness is not even prosecuting many property crimes, and on top of that people know nothing will happen anyway so a lot of times they don't even report a crime. If a crime doesn't get reported or prosecuted then it didn't happen as far as crime stats go. It really feels like the criminals have all the rights and the victims are just supposed to suck it up and write off the losses as a cost of living.

[SiliconWizard]

I'm just annoyed that a someone has been convicted of a crime and now they are trying to play the victim to get out of serving the punishment.

Uh, they all try to get out of it at some point. Who wouldn't? Are you expecting all criminals to suddenly see the light and accept their punishment as a way to their redemption?

I agree with james_s in that she shouldn't get away with it, if just because it never leads to anything good for society in the long run.

But I still don't feel sorry for the alleged victims among the investors, they just asked for it.

[BBBbbb]

I'm pretty confident her life will fall apart anyway. I give her relationship a year, 2 max, untreated personality disordered people are unable to maintain longterm relationships. With any luck maybe she'll be hit by a bus.

This sounds like a dose of copium with the fact that the rules are simply not the same for the rich.
Her life falling apart would still mean being better off than the average person, especially when you're unable of empathy like she seems to be.

[magic]

I'm angry when Americans work their asses off for their magnate class so that they can spend the money on meddling in foreign politics just because they can.
I'm angry when Americans enable lunatics like Bush and Obama to start conflicts all over the world, lose them, and leave it to others to clean up the mess.

Americans eating their own is justice being served. Doubly so if it's the rich. Triply so if it only benefits a silly chick who won't get anything out of it other than a comfy mansion. Good for her.


But somehow everybody in the world watches American TV and gets upset about shit that's supposed to upset Americans?
I laugh at their self-imposed first world problems from behind the Atlantic

[james_s]

This sounds like a dose of copium with the fact that the rules are simply not the same for the rich.
Her life falling apart would still mean being better off than the average person, especially when you're unable of empathy like she seems to be.

As the saying goes, money can't buy happiness. I can't say for sure, but I strongly suspect she has BPD or NPD, and both of these disorders cause intense misery for the person that has them, along with people that have the misfortune to be around them. Her outward persona is overcompensating for the intense void within, self loathing and a feeling of worthlessness. They are miserable, insecure and empty and no amount of money or success changes this. The inability to perceive empathy contributes to repeated failed personal relationships, both romantic and friends/family, and usually they have no idea why, they believe they are completely sane and the whole world has it in for them.

[coppice]

As the saying goes, money can't buy happiness.

but poverty sure buys a lot of misery.

[james_s]

As the saying goes, money can't buy happiness.

but poverty sure buys a lot of misery.

Sure, but once you have enough money to cover your basic needs there are diminishing returns to having more money.

[magic]

As the saying goes, money can't buy happiness. I can't say for sure, but I strongly suspect she has BPD or NPD, and both of these disorders cause intense misery for the person that has them, along with people that have the misfortune to be around them. Her outward persona is overcompensating for the intense void within, self loathing and a feeling of worthlessness. They are miserable, insecure and empty and no amount of money or success changes this. The inability to perceive empathy contributes to repeated failed personal relationships, both romantic and friends/family, and usually they have no idea why, they believe they are completely sane and the whole world has it in for them.

A mostly fair characterization, and the reason why getting angry at crazy chicks is waste of time. They see your anger (so much for lack of empathy), they don't know that they are crazy, they think that you are

They are like automatons with no plan, no pragmatism, no goals other than one: trying to fit in and do whatever they think people expect of them and what would make them cool and popular. Faced with conflicting or changing expectations they simply get frustrated, rarely stop to rethink what they are doing and what it is (if any) that they really want to achieve. (The answer is acceptance, I guess). Showing lack of acceptance to them makes no meaningful difference, it's their baseline existence.

Their nature makes them chameleons, displaying the colors of the society they are in. Have an issue with a crazy chick? Maybe you also have one with her family, neighbors, coworkers, investors... or perhas a whole country which makes it a point to systematically ignore all sorts of craziness in the name of absolute egalitarianism

[Kjelt]

I'm salty about people getting away with crime in general. Over the past decade or so there has been a big push toward being soft on crime, and the result has not surprisingly been a massive increase in crime. 

Here in the Netherlands the criminal judicial system is a factor five overloaded. Not enough prosecutors, judges etc so every case below a certain thresshold is dropped.
Unbelievable since civil law is just continuing.
So no trials for multi time shoplifters, burglars but long trials for "famous" *puke* tv personalities , singers against social media people, fight divorces etc. 

[temperance]

@ Kjelt,

describing the judicial system as overloaded is an expression used by some to hide the fact that the system is not funded properly and in some instances corrupt and as such just other demonstration of government incompetence? That's what I'm seeing here in Belgium.

multi time shoplifters, burglars,... and the like are just small problems, a side effect of something deeper (a culture problem). The real problem starts somewhere in Germany passes trough Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Antwerp, Brugge, Gent...

[Kjelt]

Could be part of the issue but money does not solve all the problems.
AFAIK finding enough suitable people is an issue , just as protecting everyone.
It has become a mocro maffia jungle here and the next generation young "carreer" criminals have absolutely no conscious.

[temperance]

AFAIK finding enough suitable people is an issue , just as protecting everyone.

Here in Belgium, prosecutors use computers running windows 98 which can not be network anymore because of security reasons... From some friends over in the Netherlands I'm hearing the same stories.

It's like this:
you, are guilty until proven innocent when it comes to paying your taxes. Governments calculated that investing money into systems to squeeze some money out of people is a valuable thing.
Some criminal is by definition innocent until proven guilty and it costs money to chase them. Money laundering brings money so why do something about it?

[Kjelt]

I wouldn't go that far.
Old computer systems, yes every municipal had their own system. 
On country level, the tax laws in our country are so spaghetti obfuscated complicated during the last 30 years by politicians who ad hoc introduced band aid laws to fix a problem, that two 100+ million€ IT projects all failed because they could not be written down in the requirements and every person had a different interpretation. That is a big mess.
The last I heard is that two new tax change laws have been postponed because it was impossible to execute. The software can not handle it, the lack of civil servants could not handle it.
Time for a reset of the entire tax system if you ask me.

[james_s]

multi time shoplifters, burglars,... and the like are just small problems, a side effect of something deeper (a culture problem). The real problem starts somewhere in Germany passes trough Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Antwerp, Brugge, Gent...

They may be small problems in isolation, but when you have dozens or hundreds or thousands of them the impact on society gets substantial, and when you let them get away with it that emboldens more people to commit these crimes safe in the knowledge that they won't be prosecuted for it. There is a cost to society too, enough thefts can cause a store to lay off employees or even go out of business entirely. If people are getting their stuff stolen they feel less safe and secure, and a fundamental need of anyone is to feel safe. There are places I won't go because I don't want to risk having my car broken into by someone looking for valuables or loose change, neither of which are there but that doesn't stop them from smashing a window to rifle through things. Car breakins are rampant because again they are rarely ever prosecuted and now that has reached a point where many people don't even bother to report it. It's a classic example of how you have got to attack small problems promptly before they turn into big problems.

[temperance]

I stated something different: I stated that small crimes are a side effect of something deeper.

There are places I won't go because I don't want to risk having my car broken into by someone looking for valuables or loose change, neither of which are there but that doesn't stop them from smashing a window to rifle through things.

In many cases those small criminals are looking for valuables to trade for something they are addicted to. It doesn't help to remove those from the streets if you don't solve the root cause of the problem. But solving this seems very difficult because of the money going round. I've seen a documentary here where some of them claim to earn around 3..7K every week. A lot of people seem to like such incomes a lot.

Money and appearance matters more to some people than anything else.

As an example. One of my friends is a school teacher. She recently told me a story about children attending school without having anything to eat with them (where I live, schools don't provide lunch). In such case, schools provide a lunch and the parents in question receive a bill (something between €70...100 / year) which those parents refuse to pay. The interesting part is that parents who drop of their children at school with an empty lunch box usually drive around in very expensive cars and the larger the car the emptier the lunch box. There is even a case where the school received a letter from a lawyer office to dispute the bill in question because dear mother works in a lawyer office and thinks she can do whatever she like to. For many others the school has to revert to a debt collector...

I don't know what to think about that. But something is very wrong.

[james_s]

In many cases those small criminals are looking for valuables to trade for something they are addicted to. It doesn't help to remove those from the streets if you don't solve the root cause of the problem. But solving this seems very difficult because of the money going round. I've seen a documentary here where some of them claim to earn around 3..7K every week. A lot of people seem to like such incomes a lot.

Of course they are, and sure it helps, they used to aggressively charge and jail junkies and property crime was much lower. It's very hard to get rid of the dealers for the reasons you state, but the dealers are for the most part only supplying a demand, and you can reduce the demand by locking up the people that can't make sensible choices for themselves, and force them into addiction treatment. Personally I think they should all be picked up and given the option to go to treatment or go to jail. Instead they just get released to return to living on the street committing more crimes, if they are picked up at all. My rights and my property are more important than those of someone that refuses to live by the rules and refrain from victimizing others.

[SilverSolder]

In many cases those small criminals are looking for valuables to trade for something they are addicted to. It doesn't help to remove those from the streets if you don't solve the root cause of the problem. But solving this seems very difficult because of the money going round. I've seen a documentary here where some of them claim to earn around 3..7K every week. A lot of people seem to like such incomes a lot.

Of course they are, and sure it helps, they used to aggressively charge and jail junkies and property crime was much lower. It's very hard to get rid of the dealers for the reasons you state, but the dealers are for the most part only supplying a demand, and you can reduce the demand by locking up the people that can't make sensible choices for themselves, and force them into addiction treatment. Personally I think they should all be picked up and given the option to go to treatment or go to jail. Instead they just get released to return to living on the street committing more crimes, if they are picked up at all. My rights and my property are more important than those of someone that refuses to live by the rules and refrain from victimizing others.

Part of the "social contract" is that the State deals with criminals, in return for citizens not taking the law into their own hands.  When that breaks down, we get something like Brazil?

[coppice]

Part of the "social contract" is that the State deals with criminals, in return for citizens not taking the law into their own hands.

If its a contract, why was I never asked to agree to and sign a copy? Its an imposition, not a contract.

[james_s]

If its a contract, why was I never asked to agree to and sign a copy? Its an imposition, not a contract.

You would rather it be up to the individual to administer justice? Personally I think it's good to have that be centralized and consistent, but if the government is not going to do their job then individuals ought to be allowed to do it for them.

[coppice]

If its a contract, why was I never asked to agree to and sign a copy? Its an imposition, not a contract.

You would rather it be up to the individual to administer justice? Personally I think it's good to have that be centralized and consistent, but if the government is not going to do their job then individuals ought to be allowed to do it for them.

I didn't say the imposition was not necessary for an orderly society, but calling it a contract in any way shape or form is bogus. A contract is an agreement between two consenting parties.

[Nominal Animal]

Part of the "social contract" is that the State deals with criminals, in return for citizens not taking the law into their own hands.

If its a contract, why was I never asked to agree to and sign a copy? Its an imposition, not a contract.

"Social contract" is a theory or model for how a community/governance works, originating from Jean-Jacques Rousseau's 1762 book The Social Contract.

The basis for calling it a contract is the explicit, implicit, or tacit agreement at exchanging some personal freedoms for protection and maintenance of social order.  Using current international law, license (from population to their states/governance) would be more apt, but the term is already over a quarter of a millenium old; and "social license" would be too easy to misunderstand (as something the state/governance allows for the populace).

[james_s]

I suppose if one doesn't agree to the "contract", the alternative is to either leave and settle elsewhere under terms that you find more agreeable, or overthrow the government and replace it with something else. It's a contract between the government and society overall, not you the individual.

[coppice]

Part of the "social contract" is that the State deals with criminals, in return for citizens not taking the law into their own hands.

If its a contract, why was I never asked to agree to and sign a copy? Its an imposition, not a contract.

"Social contract" is a theory or model for how a community/governance works, originating from Jean-Jacques Rousseau's 1762 book The Social Contract.

The basis for calling it a contract is the explicit, implicit, or tacit agreement at exchanging some personal freedoms for protection and maintenance of social order.  Using current international law, license (from population to their states/governance) would be more apt, but the term is already over a quarter of a millenium old; and "social license" would be too easy to misunderstand (as something the state/governance allows for the populace).

I know where it comes from. Manipulative language sickens me. I don't know if the terms used in the original language are any less bogus and manipulative, but calling it a contract in English is really bogus. Its an autocratically imposed order, not a contract. It dates from the time of monarchies with serious power, and was explicitly an imposed order where those imposing it didn't give a damn about individual or group agreement with it. Nothing much has changed, but its imposed by an oligopoly these days, so its very slightly broader than just the monarch.

[Nominal Animal]

Part of the "social contract" is that the State deals with criminals, in return for citizens not taking the law into their own hands.

If its a contract, why was I never asked to agree to and sign a copy? Its an imposition, not a contract.

"Social contract" is a theory or model for how a community/governance works, originating from Jean-Jacques Rousseau's 1762 book The Social Contract.

The basis for calling it a contract is the explicit, implicit, or tacit agreement at exchanging some personal freedoms for protection and maintenance of social order.  Using current international law, license (from population to their states/governance) would be more apt, but the term is already over a quarter of a millenium old; and "social license" would be too easy to misunderstand (as something the state/governance allows for the populace).

I know where it comes from. Manipulative language sickens me. I don't know if the terms used in the original language are any less bogus and manipulative, but calling it a contract in English is really bogus. Its an autocratically imposed order, not a contract. It dates from the time of monarchies with serious power, and was explicitly an imposed order where those imposing it didn't give a damn about individual or group agreement with it. Nothing much has changed, but its imposed by an oligopoly these days, so its very slightly broader than just the monarch.

I'm not sure it is manipulative language, because a contract based on tacit agreement is still a contract.

If you do not agree to something, you can contact your favourite politician to change that, or become a politician to change that.  You could claim that 'social contract' is not a real contract, because it isn't drawn up by both parties, and one is imposed upon you when you become of age or move to a new country.  Yet, most contracts private individuals daily execute are exactly like that, with changes to the contract difficult to initiate.  Whether that is right or wrong is irrelevant, because it is necessary for a relatively stable society to work in practice.  If every single contract is negotiated separately, the society will be frozen in red tape.

With the Western type of justice and governance, the same rules ought to apply to everyone, equally.  This means that the negotiation power of a single individual wrt. the social contract is minimal, because any change would affect everyone else too.  I don't mind subjecting myself to laws I don't exactly agree with, as long as the majority agrees the law is valid/proper/useful.

What I really hate, is when laws are selectively applied, like seems to be the case here with Elizabeth Holmes.

[Ed.Kloonk]

With the Western type of justice and governance, the same rules ought to apply to everyone, equally.  This means that the negotiation power of a single individual wrt. the social contract is minimal, because any change would affect everyone else too.  I don't mind subjecting myself to laws I don't exactly agree with, as long as the majority agrees the law is valid/proper/useful.

What I really hate, is when laws are selectively applied, like seems to be the case here with Elizabeth Holmes.

The laws do contain penalties, sometimes quite specific sometimes very vague. The prosecutor and defence lawyer can argue with each other if they think there is a precedent where a penalty was either too harsh or lenient. And the judge is supposed to examine the individual situation of the perp in order to settle on a spot within the range brought by both parties.

[coppice]

I'm not sure it is manipulative language, because a contract based on tacit agreement is still a contract.

If I do business with someone, they usually have a set of rules for the transaction that I am expected to follow. That is reasonably described as a contract. Most of the time we don't bother to read all the rules, but they are something we can choose to accept or go elsewhere. This is tacit agreement. If I object to aspects of a "social contract" I have no choices. Its compulsion, plain and simple. I might be able to leave the country, but for most people that's not an option. Unless you are content to spend the rest of your life on the oceans, or sneak in somewhere as an illegal immigrant, you can only leave one place if another will accept you. As I said before, most of the rules in most western countries are OK by me, but call them what they are.

[Sal Ammoniac]

Now, it seems, she's making a play for sympathy: https://news.yahoo.com/liz-holmes-wants-forget-elizabeth-140939820.html

[magic]

That's not how it works. She has to cut her boobs first, then every American will be bending over backwards to forget her name

[james_s]

Now, it seems, she's making a play for sympathy: https://news.yahoo.com/liz-holmes-wants-forget-elizabeth-140939820.html

She's just trying to create a new persona, just like the fake voice was part of a different persona. I think it's very likely she has BPD, she exhibits a lot of the symptoms, they tend to be chameleons.

[floobydust]

What's interesting in all this, is the research proving that prison time is basically ineffective. As far as "negative reinforcement" it does not deter as much as we think.
There are countless recidivism papers, most research results are behind paywalls unfortunately. There is also a mix of offender stats for druggies and violent types. Females re-offend less than males.

"Relative risk statistics at one year indicated that psychopaths were approximately three times more likely to recidivate—or four times more likely to violently recidivate—than were non-psychopaths."
2018 Prison population forecast and
Annual recidivism report 2014 cohort

"Psychopathy, as measured by the Levenson Self-Report Scale (LSRP; Levenson et al., 1995), consists of 3-facets: the interpersonal, affective, and behavioral facets.
The interpersonal facet of psychopathy includes symptoms of grandiosity, conning and manipulative behaviors, superficial charm, social dominance, and selfishness (Sellbom, 2011).
The affective facet is characterized by callousness, lack of empathy, and a lack of remorse (Sellbom, 2011).
The behavioral facet measures boredom susceptibility and unstable, angry, impulsive attitudes and behaviors (Garofalo et al., 2019; Thomson et al., 2020a). Research has demonstrated that the interpersonal facet is related to low agreeableness and higher levels of narcissism and moral disengagement (Garofalo et al., 2019). The affective facet is related to a lack of empathy, guilt, and morality, low agreeableness and conscientiousness, and higher levels of cold-heartedness (Garofalo et al., 2019). The behavioral facet is related to chronic antisocial behavior, emotion dysregulation, and impulsivity (Christian and Sellbom, 2016).
Gun Violence and Psychopathy Among Female Offenders

So she doesn't have to go to prison at all, it won't help anyway

[james_s]

The point of prison isn't to help the prisoner, it's to punish them, and to help the rest of society by keeping the offender out of circulation. A huge majority of the prison population has personality disorders and other psychological problems that can't be fixed, you can't teach a person to feel empathy, but you can keep them away from the rest of us.

[EEVblog]

Now, it seems, she's making a play for sympathy: https://news.yahoo.com/liz-holmes-wants-forget-elizabeth-140939820.html

[magic]

So she doesn't have to go to prison at all, it won't help anyway

Exactly. The whole point of insanity is gaining power over others while resisting their power over you. At least the healthy insanity; of course you can be unhealthy insane and end up a hobo on the other hand.

People seem to forget that the goal of life is not living up to the unrealistic expectations of Asperger's types and enlightenment philosophers

[HighVoltage]

She will most likely never go to prison.
Mother twice or not, any normal person would have been in prison a long time ago.
Maybe she is protected because she knows too much ?


Criminal Elizabeth Holmes Deemed 'DEVOTED MOTHER' In NYT Fluff Piece: Rising Reacts

[John B]

Don't be too hard on her. She had to look behind the couch and crack open the piggy bank to find enough coin to pay an international media outlet for a fluff piece.

[.RC.]

Oh come on. White, quite attractive, smart and wealthy.   

Whether you like it or not she has already ticked most of the important boxes, she is on a winner.

[Kjelt]

Oh come on. White, quite attractive, smart and wealthy.   

There is your main point, if someone has committed a crime, being a white collar crime or not, all profits from that crime should be taken back by the government to refund the victims.
The only thing that really works is to take away everything from criminals, because otherwise it keeps on being worthwhile to commit such crimes.

[floobydust]

She's got money stashed away somewhere, a net worth of $4.5B down to zero? Yeah right. Wealthy people game the legal system, first by using an armada of lawyers. Otherwise- she did piss off investors government and big business so I thought her legal bias would be against her, but no.

Talking with a engineering peer, he thinks these criminals "need to go to the chair". I thought that's a bit harsh. "no, just put them in the electric chair, throw the switch!"

That's when I looked at prison stats and find it's pretty much useless, and expensive:
"Fifty studies dating from 1958 involving 336,052 offenders produced 325 correlations between recidivism and (a) length of time in prison and recidivism or (b) serving a prison sentence vs. receiving a community-based sanction. The data was analysed using quantitative methods (i.e., meta-analysis) to determine whether prison reduced criminal behaviour or recidivism."
"The results were as follows: under both of the above conditions, prison produced slight increases in recidivism. Secondly, there was some tendency for lower risk offenders to be more negatively affected by the prison experience."
"The essential conclusions reached from this study were:
1. Prisons should not be used with the expectation of reducing criminal behaviour.
2. On the basis of the present results, excessive use of incarceration has enormous cost implications.
3. In order to determine who is being adversely affected by prison, it is incumbent upon prison officials to implement repeated, comprehensive assessments of offenders' attitudes, values, and behaviours while incarcerated.
4. The primary justification of prison should be to incapacitate offenders (particularly, those of a chronic, higher risk nature) for reasonable periods and to exact retribution.

source: https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/ffcts-prsn-sntncs-rcdvsm/index-en.aspx

[rdl]

I don't see how locking her up makes sense. This was a "white-collar" crime. Make the punishment fit. Take her house and as much of her money as needed to equal the crime.

[rdl]

Yes, I know that's not how the laws work, I'm just saying how I think they should work in situations like this.

[floobydust]

Take away all her money, her house, leave the babies starving etc. - it's just more incentive for her to scam again. She's going to do it anyway.
Martin Shkreli is still at it, banned from Twitter over his start up Dr. Gupta medical chatbot.
It's been said, punishing these people for who they are, doesn't change them.

[james_s]

Nothing will change them, the hardware required to feel empathy is not hooked up and no amount of software tinkering can fix that. That's why you keep them locked up as long as possible to limit the amount of damage they can do.

[SiliconWizard]

I don't see how locking her up makes sense. This was a "white-collar" crime. Make the punishment fit. Take her house and as much of her money as needed to equal the crime.

I don't agree with this. I don't think the punishment should fit anything. It should just be proportional to the law offense and damage done.
Damage should be paid, which may take up a sizeable chunk of what she has, if not most of it, anyway.

A jail sentence is not just to isolate dangerous people. It's a fundamental deprivation of freedom, something that is historically considered the ultimate punishment, after death.
People that have committed serious enough crimes should be sentenced to jail. The point is not whether it actually solves anything and makes people better. The point is that it's a strong symbol that shows a given society won't let you get away with crimes, whatever they are.

It's interesting to witness that more and more people now see freedom as non-essential which leads to the deprivation of freedom not seen as much of a punishment in itself anymore. Would be a whole other topic. But yeah.

For others, deprivation of freedom is actually a lot worse than losing money.

Just a thought.

[EEVblog]

She's going in! 
https://www.reuters.com/legal/court-denies-elizabeth-holmes-request-remain-free-while-appealing-conviction-2023-05-17/

[SiliconWizard]

Who's next?

[james_s]

She's going in! 
https://www.reuters.com/legal/court-denies-elizabeth-holmes-request-remain-free-while-appealing-conviction-2023-05-17/

[AlbertL]

Wow, I wasn't expecting that!  Good job.

[floobydust]

"U.S. District Judge Edward Davila concluded that even if Holmes won her appeal to challenge the Theranos technology evidence, it wouldn't result in a reversal or a new trial of all the counts she was found guilty of."

Uh you ain't innocent lol

[SiliconWizard]

No one's innocent.

[PlainName]

She's going in! 
https://www.reuters.com/legal/court-denies-elizabeth-holmes-request-remain-free-while-appealing-conviction-2023-05-17/

She ain't there yet.

Don't know why they don't just put her straight away - it is past her due date, after all. Instead, she is still out while they arrange another date with destiny, and while her legal people dream up another gotcha.

[Ed.Kloonk]

and while her legal people dream up another gotcha.

More moves than Fred Astaire.

[EEVblog]

She ain't there yet.
Don't know why they don't just put her straight away - it is past her due date, after all. Instead, she is still out while they arrange another date with destiny, and while her legal people dream up another gotcha.

Yeah, it's just a stupid waste of everyone time. Appeal failed, "bailiff, take the accused into custody." Call the van.

[rsjsouza]

Perhaps to give time for her to get pregnant again? 

With such corruption in the justice system in certain areas of US, I wouldn't be surprised the defense team is stonewalling the decision or trying to get some sort of deal.

As we say in Brasil: To my friends, anything. To my enemies, the heavy hand of the law!

[Sal Ammoniac]

Her only option now is an appeal to the Supreme Court, and it’s extremely unlikely they’d agree to hear the case.

[floobydust]

Her 3 mo. old daughter's name Invicta, Latin for “invincible,” or “undefeated” 
The second ruling "U.S. District Judge Edward Davila ordered Holmes to pay $452 million in restitution to the victims of her crimes. " {I think it's joint with Balwani}
She's also gotta pay now, might have money problems paying the armada of lawyers.

[tom66]

Her 3 mo. old daughter's name Invicta, Latin for “invincible,” or “undefeated” 
The second ruling "U.S. District Judge Edward Davila ordered Holmes to pay $452 million in restitution to the victims of her crimes. " {I think it's joint with Balwani}
She's also gotta pay now, might have money problems paying the armada of lawyers.

Jointly liable as well.  So they both have to pay, if one can't pay the other has to cover the full amount.  Realistically though she will have zero assets.  She is staying freely in her partner's house, so they can't touch that, she will be paying lawyers on contingency, legal fees probably secured against the house too, I doubt she owns more than her phone and her clothes.  So what do they do?

Also, I'd really hope this outcome causes VCs to take a step back and investigate more thoroughly before throwing money into obvious scams, see also: uBeam.

[magic]

I doubt she owns more than her phone and her clothes.  So what do they do?

I  know what I would do

[Bud]

I take "victims of her crime" are those idiots who rushed to buy shares back then?

[AVGresponding]

I take "victims of her crime" are those idiots who rushed to buy shares back then?

Maybe the patients that were given false hope?

[mendip_discovery]

I take "victims of her crime" are those idiots who rushed to buy shares back then?

Ok man of much hindsight what made them idots to invest in a new exciting firm that was working on a product that may well have changed the way people get diagnosed for illnesses if it had worked, oh and if you invest early enough you could make millions. Just look at how some of the biggest companies started and they had just as weak ideas about how they would make money, from an American firm selling electric cars to one wanting to rent videos and dvds via the post.

[Bud]

I take "victims of her crime" are those idiots who rushed to buy shares back then?

Maybe the patients that were given false hope?

Based on the Reuters article

The victims’ losses occurred at the moment they exchanged their money for Theranos shares,” the judge said.

[helius]

Ok man of much hindsight what made them idots to invest in a new exciting firm that was working on a product that may well have changed the way people get diagnosed for illnesses if it had worked, oh and if you invest early enough you could make millions.

Theranos's (sounds like Thanos) investors were so-called "qualified investors", not average Joes. That means they bear the responsibility to do their own due diligence on investments they make. Holmes committed fraud by deceiving investors, public customers, and affiliates like Walgreens about her company's technology. But the investors were not innocents.

Just look at how some of the biggest companies started and they had just as weak ideas about how they would make money, from an American firm selling electric cars to one wanting to rent videos and dvds via the post.

Neither of those were "weak ideas". A long path to profitability is not a bad or fraudulent business model.

[.RC.]

Holmes committed fraud by deceiving investors, public customers, and affiliates like Walgreens about her company's technology.

Sounds like all the hallmarks of a great career in politics.   

But it is ludicrous the way one person tells a heap of lies to get money out of people, and that is OK.   Yet others get the book thrown at them. There is no consistency seemingly anywhere in the world when it comes to fraud convictions.

[PlainName]

I take "victims of her crime" are those idiots who rushed to buy shares back then?

Maybe the patients that were given false hope?

Based on the Reuters article

The victims’ losses occurred at the moment they exchanged their money for Theranos shares,” the judge said.

I think the judge is saying they were scammed from the off. Like if you buy a new car that turns out to be a cut'n'shut job, you lost your money at the moment you handed it over. As opposed to it being possibly OK and  then greed took over down the line to make an otherwise OK deal worthless.

[SiliconWizard]

But it is ludicrous the way one person tells a heap of lies to get money out of people, and that is OK.   Yet others get the book thrown at them. There is no consistency seemingly anywhere in the world when it comes to fraud convictions.

You just need to know the right people and have them by the balls.
She didn't.

[Sal Ammoniac]

May 30th at 2:00pm -- that's when she's been ordered to report to prison.

[MrMobodies]

She's going in! 
https://www.reuters.com/legal/court-denies-elizabeth-holmes-request-remain-free-while-appealing-conviction-2023-05-17/

Excellent just when I thought nothing would happen.

Holmes, who rose to fame after claiming Theranos' small machines could run an array of diagnostic tests

Joke: Maybe the shareholders should have run their own "diagnostic tests" on her from the beginning before paying their way in.

[HighVoltage]

During the trial she was on the witness stand.
Did she keep her deep voice or did it fall back to "normal" ?
I don't think there are any videos of her from inside the courtroom.

[MrMobodies]

Her 3 mo. old daughter's name Invicta, Latin for “invincible,” or “undefeated” 

and the dog she use to have at Palto Alto Theranos... Balto she named after a dog in some novel.

https://slate.com/business/2023/05/elizabeth-homes-nyt-profile-balto-dog-mountain-lion-history.html#:~:text=“In the waning days of,home by a mountain lion.

Part of the rolling had to do with a dog story. “In the waning days of Theranos,” Chozick writes, “Ms. Holmes got a dog, a Siberian husky named Balto.” Apparently, in 2022, Balto met with a bad end, being “carried away” from the front porch of their home by a mountain lion.

I'd thought she'd be protective of her dog.


Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes' legal challenges denied, expected to report to prison
ABC News, 14.4M subscribers, Up: 288 Down: 3

23K views  5 hours ago  #news #elizabethholmes #theranos
The Theranos founder was denied a last-minute bid to avoid starting her sentence.

Youtube transcript:

2:21 and there are so many patients out there
also the whistleblowers who spent years
living in fear about the consequences of
telling the truth that prison in Bryan
Texas by the way where homes is set to
report is about 100 miles Northwest of
Houston where she grew up

Another surprise I see. So she isn't just going to a place far away but somewhere she was once familiar with.

[SiliconWizard]

 

[james_s]

https://slate.com/business/2023/05/elizabeth-homes-nyt-profile-balto-dog-mountain-lion-history.html#:~:text=“In the waning days of,home by a mountain lion.

Part of the rolling had to do with a dog story. “In the waning days of Theranos,” Chozick writes, “Ms. Holmes got a dog, a Siberian husky named Balto.” Apparently, in 2022, Balto met with a bad end, being “carried away” from the front porch of their home by a mountain lion.

I'd thought she'd be protective of her dog.

It's hard to blame somebody for that incident. If I had a big dog like that, I don't think it would occur to me to worry about it being dragged off and eaten by a mountain lion, that doesn't exactly happen every day. There are big cats in the wilderness areas around me but I've never personally seen one.

[MrMobodies]

https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/jen-shah-elizabeth-holmes-both-063811404.html

Jen Shah and Elizabeth Holmes, both convicted of fraud, can take business skills classes at the Texas prison where they'll serve their sentences

Hannah Getahun, Sat, 20 May 2023, 7:38 am BST·2-min read
The Texas women's prison offers business skill classes to all inmates.

Both Holmes and Shah have been convicted of fraud relating to their business practices. Elizabeth Holmes is set to begin her 11-year sentence for fraud related to her failed blood-testing business at a prison camp in Texas that, ironically, offers business classes to inmates, according to an inmate orientation handbook.

Holmes was convicted in November 2022 of three charges of wire fraud and one conspiracy to commit wire fraud charge after a jury found she defrauded investors in her health tech company Theranos. On Tuesday a judge denied Holmes's request to stay out of prison while she appealed her conviction. She was later assigned to serve out her sentence at the Federal Prison Camp, a women's prison in Bryan, Texas for those convicted of white-collar crimes, according to the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

It's the same prison where Jen Shah, one of the stars of "The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City," is three months into her 6 ½ year sentence after being found guilty on a charge of conspiracy to commit wire fraud in connection with a telemarketing scam that targeted elderly victims. According to the prison's handbook, all inmates are required to hold a job for a minimum of 90 days. The inmates are given opportunities to take tests that determine if they are particularly skilled in fields like business or clerical work.

Based on those skills, prison leadership then assigns the inmates jobs at a factory, where they make cents an hour to hone those skills. These inmates will have to shadow a more experienced worker to learn how to operate machinery or complete data entry assignments. However, the handbook states that inmates — including the former billionaire businesswoman — cannot start or conduct their own business while at the Federal Prison Camp.

Holmes will also spend her time in prison making her bed at early hours, enduring multiple headcounts a day, keeping her cell clean by mopping the floors, taking out the trash, and facing random shakedowns for contraband. [b* ]Her timetable will be strictly controlled[/b], and she will only be allowed to move about the prison at certain times. It's not all bad though: the prison offers wellness classes, arts and crafts, and leisure programs.

Criminal defense lawyer Alan Ellis told Bloomberg in November that, compared to other prisons FPC Bryan was "heaven." "If you have to go it's a good place to go," Ellis told Bloomberg. A lawyer for Holmes and representatives for Shah did not immediately respond to Insider's requests for comment. Read the original article on Business Insider

* Joke: to her liking maybe.
I was told by a friend from the security industry that if someone has a criminal record for certain things like fraud and burglary they won't be able go into occupations to learn about things like burglar alarms and access control but that was over ten years ago and maybe things have changed.

Why does she need to learn about business skills? From the amount of people and high profile ones she conned into business and the manipulation in keeping it going doesn't she have excellent business skills but not a care in he world? but herself especially for the blood testing victim.

Maybe in her case shouldn't they swap the business skills with the psychology assessments.

Psychology Services
Psychology Services departments in all BOP institutions offer basic mental health care to
inmates. This care may include screening, assessment and treatment of mental health or drug
abuse problems, individual and/or group counseling, psycho-educational classes, self-help and
supportive services, or referral to Health Services for medical treatment of a mental illness.

Oh I see, it is for drug abuse not treating psychopaths or people like Elizabeth Holmes unless she is seeking the "mental illness" component that she was claiming to have some years ago.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/elizabeth-holmes-to-seek-mental-diseaseinsanity/

[EEVblog]

https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/jen-shah-elizabeth-holmes-both-063811404.html

Jen Shah and Elizabeth Holmes, both convicted of fraud, can take business skills classes at the Texas prison where they'll serve their sentences

Hannah Getahun, Sat, 20 May 2023, 7:38 am BST·2-min read
The Texas women's prison offers business skill classes to all inmates.

She'll be teaching it.
Reminds me of this scene from Back to School:

[SiliconWizard]

11 years is a pretty long time.

[EEVblog]

11 years is a pretty long time.

She'll be out in 5.

[Bud]

And then she'll write a book.

[floobydust]

What about the $452M restitution?
"Compliance with the Order of Restitution automatically becomes a condition of the offender's probation or supervised release."

[EEVblog]

What about the $452M restitution?
"Compliance with the Order of Restitution automatically becomes a condition of the offender's probation or supervised release."

She'll already have that figured out through various secret trust funds. She'll be able to live a sweet life when remaining technically unable to pay it.

[james_s]

She'll already have that figured out through various secret trust funds. She'll be able to live a sweet life when remaining technically unable to pay it.

Or she'll engage in another large scale fraud in attempt to build back up her previous opulent lifestyle, not having the sense to realize that she will be caught even more easily the next time around and the whole thing will repeat again.

[MrMobodies]

... with the help of her inmates she taught at business class.

[SiliconWizard]

Maybe she can start a company selling solar roadways?

[MrMobodies]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12134393/What-life-prison-like-disgraced-Theranos-tech-mogul-Elizabeth-Holmes.html

'*You have to play your cards right' What life for disgraced Theranos tech mogul Elizabeth Holmes will be like in federal prison as she reports for her 11-year sentence this week

By JAMES GORDON FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
PUBLISHED: 00:28, 29 May 2023 | UPDATED: 02:26, 29 May 2023

Jen Shah, a star of Bravo's 'Real Housewives of Salt Lake City' is serving time in Bryan prison for her role in a telemarketing scam.
...
New inmates normally spend their first three months working in the kitchen, which is considered one of the most demanding jobs in the prison. The job pays 12 cents an hour.

Various other roles exist such as groundskeepers, clerks and * telemarketers in the call center all operated by the Bureau of Prisons.

Telemarketer scammer can continue to operate as a telemarketer in prison.

It reminds in the UK some years ago in a documentary on how inmates still manage run their enterprise from inside the prison through various means such as mobile phone smuggling and the effort they go to but in that prison no effort. A telemarketer, who can't be trusted can still continue to do telemarketing and with Elizabeth Holmes she can be involved in business classes whether she'll be learning of teaching it.

*Playing their cards right?
It seems to me the "right" cards are already provided to them in that prison on a gold platter except for their wages.

Judge Edward Davila recommended Holmes be placed at the Bryan camp to make family visits easier as she grew up in Houston, although the Bureau of Prisons has not publicly disclosed where she will be held.

Another card Elizabeth Homes is holding is the children to be near to family or some place she is familiar with.

SirMongo, los angeles, United States, 4 hours ago

From the description, sounds like a fancy prep school.

UP: 306 DOWN: 16

Joke: Could be right when Elizabeth Holmes and Jen Shah shows them the ropes to their business model and they then go out and do similar after their sentence.

[EEVblog]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12134393/What-life-prison-like-disgraced-Theranos-tech-mogul-Elizabeth-Holmes.html

'*You have to play your cards right' What life for disgraced Theranos tech mogul Elizabeth Holmes will be like in federal prison as she reports for her 11-year sentence this week

By JAMES GORDON FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
PUBLISHED: 00:28, 29 May 2023 | UPDATED: 02:26, 29 May 2023

Jen Shah, a star of Bravo's 'Real Housewives of Salt Lake City' is serving time in Bryan prison for her role in a telemarketing scam.
...
New inmates normally spend their first three months working in the kitchen, which is considered one of the most demanding jobs in the prison. The job pays 12 cents an hour.

Various other roles exist such as groundskeepers, clerks and * telemarketers in the call center all operated by the Bureau of Prisons.

Telemarketer scammer can continue to operate as a telemarketer in prison.

I don't know whether to  or  :'(

[floobydust]

Tomorrow she's going to prison... "Inmates Await Theranos Founder: ‘I Want to Be Her Friend’ 
I think she's going to have problems getting along with non-invincibles.

Her deep throaty voice could make a good AI voice, or she could be a call-center favorite 

[Sal Ammoniac]

She’s in.

The perp walk:

[MrMobodies]

From all of her pictures of her enjoying her time with her new family but when it comes to court she claimed mental illness. I know people with mental illness in far worse condition than that where they are trapped. In the photo she don't look trapped to me and seems to get around nice and easily.

Her deep throaty voice could make a good AI voice, or she could be a call-center favorite 

Joke: In business classes I think that could be part of her training to the other inmates to learn that deep voice before they become her business partner and go straight off to the tele marketing department.

[MrMobodies]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12140717/Elizabeth-Holmes-reports-prison-Texas-begin-11-year-sentence-Theranos-fraud.html

Theranos fraudster Elizabeth Holmes arrives with a smile as she reports to Texas prison in jeans and cashmere sweater to begin 11-year sentence
Married mom-of-two Elizabeth Holmes, 39, arrived at the federal facility in Bryan, Texas, on Tuesday, wearing a casual beige sweater and blue jeans

She reported at the jail to begin her 11-year prison sentence for conning the science and tech world out of millions with her startup, Theranos
By CLAUDIA AORAHA and ALAN BUTTERFIELD IN SAN DIEGO FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

PUBLISHED: 18:46, 30 May 2023 | UPDATED: 21:41, 30 May 2023

Married mother-of-two Holmes laughed and smiled while talking to her handlers as she walked into the minimum-security federal women's prison camp - which is 100 miles northwest of her hometown, Houston.

Looks to me like it's one big joke to her.


It looks like this isn't punishment she is having a field day.

Dailymail comment

lisar, aspanaway, United States, 5 minutes ago
Every arriving prisoner individually greeted by a "handler"? If so that's fine, if not it's preferential treatment on the taxpayer's dime.

Insult to the taxpayer?

Her new residence is hardly Alcatraz   and the minimum security prison has instead been dubbed 'Club Fed', where inmates aren't even required to sleep in cells.

So maybe they should stop calling it a prison.

[EEVblog]

Her new residence is hardly Alcatraz   and the minimum security prison has instead been dubbed 'Club Fed', where inmates aren't even required to sleep in cells.

So maybe they should stop calling it a prison.

I'm surprised it's not called a "Correctional Facility" which is a term we use here. But even our ones are actually prisons with cells. She will sleep in an open room bunked with 3 others.

[floobydust]

From living in a $9M oceanside mansion at $13,500/mo rent... to this place?! I say she's gonna find her kryptonite in prison.

[EEVblog]

From living in a $9M oceanside mansion at $13,500/mo rent... to this place?! I say she's gonna find her kryptonite in prison.

I doubt that smile is going to last long, even if it's as cushy as prison gets.

[SiliconWizard]

Looks like the thread is turning into a tabloid.
The "stolen" pictures? really?

[EEVblog]

The "stolen" pictures? really?

I'm despeately waiting for the mug shot of inmate 24965-111 

[MrMobodies]

I'm surprised it's not called a "Correctional Facility" which is a term we use here. But even our ones are actually prisons with cells. She will sleep in an open room bunked with 3 others.

If it was called a correctional facility what would that correct in these people?
I don't think it would correct anything.
More like a "fancy prep school".

Non violent = minimum security prison.

Security so minimum:
Business fraudster allowed to take part in business classes in prison.
Telemarketing scammer still allowed to work as a telemarketer in prison.

[Kjelt]

Still it takes away the most important aspect of life: freedom.
Freedom of movement, but don't forget freedom of choice as what to eat, what to watch, what to spent time on etc. etc. Even in a cell with a toilet, tv, etc. you will suffer from the loss of choice, or loss of control over your body and live.

[MrMobodies]

That's interesting, I wonder what the toilet facilities are like in there.

Are they allowed to go anytime they like with privacy or do they "slop out" in front of everybody like they do in some prisons in England from their cell.

I can't find seem to find anything about the toilets in that prison.

[EEVblog]

That's interesting, I wonder what the toilet facilities are like in there.
Are they allowed to go anytime they like with privacy or do they "slop out" in front of everybody like they do in some prisons in England from their cell.
I can't find seem to find anything about the toilets in that prison.

https://www.kten.com/story/49002678/what-elizabeth-holmes-life-in-prison-could-look-like

But according to Mark MacDougall, a longtime white-collar defense lawyer and former federal prosecutor, the prison won’t be a walk in the park for Holmes.
“I think people who talk about ‘Camp Fed’ have never actually been inside a federal correctional institution,” MacDougall told CNN. “It’s not a place where people would want to spend time if they could be somewhere else.”
FPC Bryan will likely be heavily populated with white-collar offenders, according MacDougall. Housing at FPC Bryan typically consists of dormitory-style arrangements featuring a four-bunk cubicle and communal bath facilities, he said.
“There’s no privacy,” he said.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/federal-prison-camp-bryan-texas-elizabeth-theranos-b2348743.html

[.RC.]

Would not be surprised if the "mental illness" card is played and much time is spent in prison hospital or elsewhere.  You can be sure she will have friends in high places that will have influence for her holiday.

[wilfred]

“The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons.”
― Fyodor Dostoevsky

It can be very expensive to treat prisoners like animals. Unless you can afford to incarcerate them forever they will eventually be released.

[.RC.]

It can be very expensive to treat prisoners like animals. Unless you can afford to incarcerate them forever they will eventually be released.

The Edo people on Rubicun III did not have that problem. 

[EEVblog]

Apparently she's in "isolation"
https://nypost.com/2023/06/03/theranos-elizabeth-holmes-seen-for-first-time-in-texas-prison/

[coppice]

Apparently she's in "isolation"

Yeah, we knew that all along. Totally divorced from reality.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Looks like no jail bird I've ever seen.

 

[MrMobodies]

They keep on saying that she is "disgraced".

Is that what she is wearing in prison?
With a watch and a ring.

That don't look very disgraced to me but more like she just works there.

“You’re in the shower and the guard [could] come in there to see what you’re up to,” Espejo told The Post.

Good and I expect they do that everywhere else and not just the showers alone.

[EEVblog]

They keep on saying that she is "disgraced".
Is that what she is wearing in prison?
With a watch and a ring.
That don't look very disgraced to me but more like she just works there.

Welcome to Club Fed.

[floobydust]

Bryan Inmate Admission & Orientation Handbook pg. 9: Family and friends can send inmates money towards their "deposit fund".
So what's the point of the cheezy $0.12-$0.40/hour inmate wage?  Just to discriminate against truly poor people I guess?

edit: Muh caviar I guess she could pull some strings 

[.RC.]

“You’re in the shower and the guard [could] come in there to see what you’re up to,” Espejo told The Post.

Sounds like a movie I am told you used to buy via mail order.

[tom66]

Would not be surprised if the "mental illness" card is played and much time is spent in prison hospital or elsewhere.  You can be sure she will have friends in high places that will have influence for her holiday.

I thought most of her friends had abandoned her, after she scammed many of them for millions of dollars over Theranos and then lied through her teeth about it.

[MrMobodies]

pg. 9: Family and friends can send inmates money towards their "deposit fund".
So what's the point of the cheezy $0.12-$0.40/hour inmate wage?  Just to discriminate against truly poor people I guess?

Looks like a very big watch to me.

https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/bry/BRY_commlist_032119.pdf

MP3 PLAYER $88.40

What if that watch she is wearing has an MP3 player in it?

edit: Muh caviar I guess she could pull some strings 

Maybe the same strings that helped her avoid going into a normal prison because "she is not violent".

[TimFox]

The 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."  (emphasis added)

[floobydust]

You think she should be hammering on the rock pile?  This seems to be a cushy prison with a few micro-punishments.
Oh the torture, prison-price gouging for pop $6.40, coffee $9.30 for Tasters Choice, hair colour, Oil of Olay, makeup can be bought. Caviar is not listed.
That's almost 25 hours work for a pop at med. rate. Why can you buy Men's Degree Deodorant? Must be for the conjugal visits.

[Sal Ammoniac]

You think she should be hammering on the rock pile?

Yes.

[james_s]

You think she should be hammering on the rock pile?

Yes.

I think nonviolent offenders like this should be put to work doing something useful for the community. Bring back chain gangs of a sort, except have them scrubbing graffiti off of downtown areas and picking up trash along the highway. Maybe hire them out as yard crews pulling weeds. Forcing someone like Holmes with a taste for luxury to perform menial dirty jobs in view of all the random people like that is probably worse punishment than sitting in prison, and it actually does something of value for the rest of society.

[EEVblog]

The 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."  (emphasis added)

12 cents an hour covers that nicely 

[EEVblog]

Still it takes away the most important aspect of life: freedom.
Freedom of movement, but don't forget freedom of choice as what to eat, what to watch, what to spent time on etc. etc. Even in a cell with a toilet, tv, etc. you will suffer from the loss of choice, or loss of control over your body and live.

I wonder how long it takes to sink in that 11 years is a long freaking time?
Although isn't hear appeal still technically continuing?

[MrMobodies]

Maybe that field day of hers won't last long and she'll sink in prison at some point.

Would not be surprised if the "mental illness" card is played and much time is spent in prison hospital or elsewhere.  You can be sure she will have friends in high places that will have influence for her holiday.

So if she becomes violence she can claim "mental illness" to prevent her from going into a normal prison.
I am waiting to see what influence she may have over than prison.

I thought most of her friends had abandoned her, after she scammed many of them for millions of dollars over Theranos and then lied through her teeth about it.

Lied beyond her teeth through her lawyers, David Boies, who got taken by it and I remember according to documentaries and interviews I saw a couple of years ago of him buying some kind of shares in her company as part payment for defending what came out of her mouth and also George Shultz in an interview said something about Boies acting like an animal with the way he attacked his grandson, Tyler Shultz in front of him at the time when Elizabeth Holmes was claiming to him that the blood testing machines were being tested in the military right now.

Speaking of "mental illness" I wonder how she'd look with genuine nervous breakdown in there.

Forcing someone like Holmes with a taste for luxury to perform menial dirty jobs in view of all the random people like that is probably worse punishment than sitting in prison, and it actually does something of value for the rest of society.

Instead of all that prison psychology/counseling/wellbeing nonsense that may change her for the best when she experiences what the other half maybe forced to do.

[SiliconWizard]

What you gonna do when you get out of jail?
I'm gonna have some fun

[floobydust]

She's in 5 days, had her first prison visit, 7 hours long with husband and family at a lovely picnic grounds.
Her vegan diet is likely out, love those prison beef tacos and hot dogs lol. There is no punishment, it's just inconvenience... for a long time. The ma and pa investors that are broke now, they're hurting worse.

Goodbye "green juice" smoothies, all the rage with CEO's, pop stars and Silicon Valley. I've never known a vegan living off them that isn't a nutbar. I think vegans don't get enough protein and tryptophan- which the brain requires, and they get a bit mental.

[MrMobodies]

The ma and pa investors that are broke now, they're hurting worse.

I wonder if the blood testing victims who believed their results that suggested that were sick or their illness returned got hurt much worse than that for a bit. According to the documentary I saw that they went for tests at other clinics/labs that put them in the clear but I remembered some of them complaining about the costs of the tests.

Joke: It looks like the investors won't be able to rest as they are now stuck with their horrifying Theranos result that is permanent as Elizabeth Holmes and Sunny Balwani may never pay the restitution.

Daily Mail comment:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12092549/Theranos-fraudster-Elizabeth-Holmes-ordered-repay-Rupert-Murdoch-entire-125-MILLION-invested.html

Rammed Earth, Malibu, United States, 5 days ago

I'm convinced she uses a form of hypnosis on people around her. She lowers her voice and speaks monotone, using certain eye movements that can be effective on vulnerable people. Her partner is much younger and very immature. His parents were trying to do an intervention to get him away from her early in the relationship and then suddenly they flipped and became her boosters. I think she used hypnosis on the whole bunch of them.

I like the explanation but I wonder is that what she learn't somewhere at Harvard before she dropped out and I don't mean the medical school.

I'd am looking forward to see what happens when she uses this "hypnosis" of her's on the guards and inmates.

[TimFox]

Prison hypnosis:  was there a Hammer horror movie with that plot element?

[magic]

Hypnosis

The Victimhood Olympics continues...

[MrMobodies]

Still it takes away the most important aspect of life: freedom.
Freedom of movement, but don't forget freedom of choice as what to eat, what to watch, what to spent time on etc. etc. Even in a cell with a toilet, tv, etc. you will suffer from the loss of choice, or loss of control over your body and live.

https://nypost.com/2023/06/08/theranos-fraudster-elizabeth-holmes-cries-during-first-prison-visit-with-husband-billy-evans-parents/

Distraught Theranos fraudster Elizabeth Holmes was spotted crying throughout a seven-hour reunion with her family last weekend – less than a week after she reported to federal prison in Texas to begin serving her 11-year sentence.

An emotional Holmes, 39, was photographed sitting at a picnic table and walking the grounds in her prison-issued uniform during the meeting with her husband, William Evans, and her parents, Christian and Noel, at Federal Prison Camp Bryan near Houston last Saturday.

Holmes was “visibly shaken” and “crying during much of the visit,” according to the Daily Mail, which first obtained photos of the visit.


One picture showed Holmes walking alongside Evans and clinging to one of his fingers – an embrace that appeared to violate the prison’s policy against prolonged physical contact.

The report said that Evans and Holmes’ mother “appeared equally upset” during the trip, while her father was more “stoic.”

Holmes is allowed one visit per week.

I didn't know there would be a loss of touch too seeing how lenient that prison is.

[SiliconWizard]

Hypnosis

The Victimhood Olympics continues...

Great stuff!
I found more fun to think about the whole prison part of the story as the chapter of a movie with the song I hinted earlier as soundtrack. If anyone gets the reference (to the song!)

[MrMobodies]

[EEVblog]

Still it takes away the most important aspect of life: freedom.
Freedom of movement, but don't forget freedom of choice as what to eat, what to watch, what to spent time on etc. etc. Even in a cell with a toilet, tv, etc. you will suffer from the loss of choice, or loss of control over your body and live.

https://nypost.com/2023/06/08/theranos-fraudster-elizabeth-holmes-cries-during-first-prison-visit-with-husband-billy-evans-parents/

Wow, 7 hour outing in the nice gardens with your family. Doing it tough.

[MrMobodies]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12191137/Elizabeth-Holmes-attorneys-say-afford-250-month-restitution-payments.html

Theranos fraudster Elizabeth Holmes says she can't afford $250-a-month restitution payments to pay back $452 MILLION she scammed when she's released from Texas prison in 11 years
Holmes' attorneys said she has 'limited financial resources' and should not be put on a restitution payment schedule

By SOPHIE MANN FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
PUBLISHED: 20:24, 13 June 2023 | UPDATED: 03:07, 14 June 2023

An attorney for Holmes argued before a judge she has 'limited financial resources' and should not be made to pay $250 a month in restitution once she is released.

Theranos fraudster Elizabeth Holmes has said she will not be able to afford $250-per-month in restitution payments when she's released from prison in 11 years.
...
Federal prosecutors say there was a clerical error in a court filing that resulted in no official post-prison payment schedule for Holmes.

The judge ordered Balwani to pay $25 quarterly while in prison, and at least $1,000, or at least 10 percent of his earnings, once he is released.

Holmes' legal team have not objected to $25 quarterly payments while she serves her time, but say prosecutors should not assume the failure of the judge to assign a post-prison payment schedule was a mistake.

Her lawyers, on Monday, sought to reject the correction proposed by prosecutors, arguing that the court had 'substantial evidence showing Ms. Holmes' limited financial resources and has appropriately treated Ms. Holmes and Mr. Balwani differently in sentencing.' In a lengthy New York Times profile last month, Holmes said she was unable to pay her legal bills, let alone restitution.

Rubbish. I thought that was what what her new family is for, giving her money and support.

That would be interesting to see how she'll pay her legal bill at the end of it.

Correct me if you think I am wrong. I don't know much about legal aid in America and whether Elzabeth Holmes is being represented by a free court appointed lawyer or is paying for one.

If she is paying for it say some fancy "star" lawyer, why would they defend her knowing that she can't afford them unless they were appointed?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aid_in_the_United_States

Legal aid in the United States
Legal aid in the United States is the provision of assistance to people who are unable to afford legal representation and access to the court system in the United States. In the US, legal aid provisions are different for criminal law and civil law. Criminal legal aid with legal representation is guaranteed to defendants under criminal prosecution (related to the charges) who cannot afford to hire an attorney. Civil legal aid is not guaranteed under federal law, but is provided by a variety of public interest law firms and community legal clinics for free (pro bono) or at reduced cost.[1] Other forms of civil legal aid are available through federally-funded legal services, pro bono lawyers, and private volunteers

https://www.lawfuel.com/law-star-kevin-downey-elizabeth-holmes-lawyer/

Law Star Kevin Downey – Elizabeth Holmes’ Lawyer
/ Law Stars - LawFuel's Leading Lawyers Profiles / January 5, 2022

Kevin Downey, a partner at the Washington law firm Williams & Connolly, is the lead lawyer for Holmes. Robert Leach, an assistant United States attorney for the Northern District of California, will lead the prosecution for the government, along with other prosecutors from the U.S. attorney’s office.

Holmes, a Stanford University dropout who founded Theranos in 2003 and raised $945 million from investors, was indicted on fraud charges in 2018. Her case has been plagued for years by delays: first over process, then the pandemic and finally, Ms. Holmes’s giving birth to a baby in August. She faced her high profile trial during the latter states of 2021 when she was found guilty on some of the charges levelled against her.

Education: Harvard Law School, J.D., magna cum laude, 1991; Editor, Harvard Law Review Dartmouth College, A.B., magna cum laude, 1988; Phi Beta Kappa
Career:

Served in a clerkship to Judge Edward R. Becker, United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, 1991 – 1992

Honors/Awards Recognized for years for excellence in the practice of law by Chambers USA, Best Lawyers in America, Legal 500, Benchmark Litigation, Super Lawyers, and Washingtonian Magazine. Most recently he was in the “Top 100 Trial Lawyers in America,” Benchmark Litigation, 2021-2022

Personal – Kevin Downey grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. He graduated magna cum laude from Dartmouth College in 1988 where he was elected to Phi Beta Kappa. He received his J.D., magna cum laude, from Harvard Law School, where he served as an Editor of the Harvard Law Review.
...
Professional –
The Elizabeth Holmes fraud trial placed Kevin Downey in the headlines, but he has been used to handling a variety of high profile civil and criminal law trials in the course of his career, most of which has been spent with the prestigious DC law firm Williams & Connolly, which he joined in 2000 and serves on the firm’s executive committee.

He has represented several Fortune 100 companies and some of the nation’s largest law firms in the course of his career. He has also represented dozens of corporate executives over many years and in relation to a variety of cases and claims, including the current and former CEOs of several Fortune 25 companies. He has also represented current and former government officials, including Cabinet members and has served as lead counsel and tried cases in federal and state courts and agencies across the country, as well as matters in arbitration.

His legal work has also seen him represent clients who are subject to investigation by committees of both Houses of the United States Congress.  The Holmes trial, which saw the jury return four counts of guilty out of 11 charges, certainly placed him in the headlines and although not by any means a flamboyant publicity-seeker, Kevin Downey has cemented his reputation as one of the country’s leading trial attorneys.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/08/technology/elizabeth-holmes-theranos-trial-defense.html#:~:text=Kevin Downey, a partner at,from the U.S. attorney's office.

Neama Rahmani, a former federal prosecutor and the president of the West Coast Trial Lawyers, said the pace of Ms. Holmes’s trial was sluggish. It is unusual to wait more than a week between the end of testimony and the start of closing arguments, he said.

“It’s one of the slowest trials I’ve ever heard of,” he said
....
Earlier in the trial, during testimony from 29 witnesses called by prosecutors, Ms. Holmes’s lawyers sought to poke holes and create confusion around the facts of the case. They attacked the credibility of investors, trying to show that they should have done better research on Theranos before investing to understand the risks and the details of its business. And * they tried to argue that patients who testified that they had received troubling blood test results * from Theranos were not qualified to interpret them.

Sounds very fancy to me. He seem like very "good" proactive lawyer at causing delays/"playing games" in court considering if they are not appointed and are representing her for free out of their own free will.

*Some went to other health centers to make sure according to a documentary I saw so they wouldn't interpret ir themselves. Sounds to me deliberately out of touch and pretty nasty.

So because they are deemed "not qualified" to interpret their own test results they have no right to be concerned and have retests at other clinics and contest the results if they are different.

[floobydust]

She's just playing broke. The $4.5B peak-worth of hers has some big breadcrumbs stashed away somewhere.
I read she's at $30M in legal fees. That last mansion was "rented" for $13,500/mo. She's got cash. Sometimes I wondering if she's bought this cushy "prison" as other people with far smaller crimes i.e. shoplifting are in the hard Fed prisons for the same sentence times. Makes no sense.
It would be worth following her money because that will have a crook's tale, as she's surely laundered it and bought favouritism.

People got false test results for cancer, herpes, HIV, miscarriages and of course the client database was deleted. All-round scumbag moves made by her and Balwani.

Psychopaths have command over dishing out extreme charm and charisma, which is used to manipulate people. Research papers called it "spellbound" and perhaps hypnotic might fit.
It's actually quite impressive if you've ever experienced it, up until the part where they want something from you, at your expense. Then you realize it's just them gaming.

[EEVblog]

She's just playing broke. The $4.5B peak-worth of hers has some big breadcrumbs stashed away somewhere.
I read she's at $30M in legal fees. That last mansion was "rented" for $13,500/mo. She's got cash.

I believe her husband is pretty wealthy?

[james_s]

She's just playing broke. The $4.5B peak-worth of hers has some big breadcrumbs stashed away somewhere.
I read she's at $30M in legal fees. That last mansion was "rented" for $13,500/mo. She's got cash.

I believe her husband is pretty wealthy?

I wonder what the terms of their marriage are? Maybe there is an ironclad prenup? It seems idiotic to marry into a situation where he could be liable for the costs of her legal troubles.

[SiliconWizard]

Still it takes away the most important aspect of life: freedom.
Freedom of movement, but don't forget freedom of choice as what to eat, what to watch, what to spent time on etc. etc. Even in a cell with a toilet, tv, etc. you will suffer from the loss of choice, or loss of control over your body and live.

https://nypost.com/2023/06/08/theranos-fraudster-elizabeth-holmes-cries-during-first-prison-visit-with-husband-billy-evans-parents/

Wow, 7 hour outing in the nice gardens with your family. Doing it tough.

Time isn't present in that dimension.

[MrMobodies]

I wonder what the terms of their marriage are? Maybe there is an ironclad prenup? It seems idiotic to marry into a situation where he could be liable for the costs of her legal troubles.
...
* Sometimes I wondering if she's bought this cushy "prison"

The $4.5B peak-worth of hers has some big breadcrumbs stashed away somewhere.

What if she enticed her new husband or *brought him over with the promise of many more millions hidden away somewhere where the legal fee's maybe nothing much compared to it.

[james_s]

What if she enticed her new husband or *brought him over with the promise of many more millions hidden away somewhere where the legal fee's maybe nothing much compared to it.

If he was dumb enough to fall for that then I don't feel sorry for him. I'm convinced that she has a cluster B personality disorder, she will discard him like a candy wrapper as soon as he is no longer useful to her.

[SiliconWizard]

Memories...



Fortune, which was a complicit in this whole debacle for many, many years, constantly pushing her to the front without ever questioning anything.

[TimFox]

Elizabeth Holmes says she cannot afford to pay back victims.
$250/month after eventual release for her share of $452m in restitution to 14 investors.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65905923

[Sal Ammoniac]

She's been in the can for less than two months and the government has already reduced her sentence by two years, making her new release date December 29, 2032.

[Black Phoenix]

Don't worry, before you realize you will read a news saying that it is next month.

[MrMobodies]

https://www.darkdaily.com/2024/02/09/federal-government-bans-elizabeth-holmes-from-participating-in-government-health-programs-for-90-years/

Federal Government Bans Elizabeth Holmes from Participating in Government Health Programs for 90 Years
Feb 9, 2024 —Kristin Althea O’Connor

Theranos founder and former CEO continues down the path she began by defrauding her investors and lying to clinical laboratory leaders about her technology’s capabilities

In the latest from the Elizabeth Holmes/Theranos scandal, the federal government has banned Holmes from participating in government health programs for 90 years, according to a statement from the US Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) Office of the Inspector General (OIG). Many clinical laboratory leaders may find this a fitting next chapter in her story.

As a result of the ban, Holmes is “barred from receiving payments from federal health programs for services or products, which significantly restricts her ability to work in the healthcare sector,” ARS Technica reported. So, Holmes, who is 39-years old, is basically banned for life. This is in addition to her 11-year prison sentence which was paired with $452,047,200 in restitution.

“The exclusion was announced by Inspector General Christi Grimm of the Department of Health and Human Services’ Office of Inspector General,” ARS Technica noted, adding that HHS-OIG also “excluded former Theranos President Ramesh “Sunny” Balwani from federal health programs for 90 years.” This is on top of the almost 13-year-long prison sentence he is serving for fraud.

“The Health and Human Services Department can exclude anyone convicted of certain felonies from Medicare, Medicaid, and Pentagon health programs,” STAT reported. 

Inspector General Christi Grimm “Accurate and dependable diagnostic testing technology is imperative to our public health infrastructure,” said in an HHS-OIG statement. “As technology evolves, so do our efforts to safeguard the health and safety of patients, and HHS-OIG will continue to use its exclusion authority to protect the public from bad actors.” Observant clinical laboratory leaders will recognize this as yet another episode in the Elizabeth Holmes/Theranos fraud saga they’ve been following for years. (Photo copyright: HHS-OIG.)

Why the Ban?

“The Office of Inspector General (OIG) for the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) cited Holmes’ 2022 conviction for fraud and conspiracy to commit wire fraud as the reason for her ban,” The Hill reported.

“False statements related to the reliability of these medical products can endanger the health of patients and sow distrust in our healthcare system,” Grimm stated in the HHS-OIG statement, which noted, “The statutory minimum for an exclusion based on convictions like Holmes’ is five years.

“When certain aggravating factors are present, a longer period of exclusion is justified,” the statement continued. “The length of Holmes’ exclusion is based on the application of several aggravating factors, including the length of time the acts were committed, incarceration, and the amount of restitution ordered to be paid.”

Rise and Fall of Elizabeth Holmes

Readers of Dark Daily’s e-briefs covering the Holmes/Theranos fraud saga will recall details on Holmes’ journey from mega success to her current state of incarceration for defrauding her investors. In November 2022, she was handed an 11-year prison sentence for not disclosing that Theranos’ innovative blood testing technology, Edison, was producing flawed and false results. Theranos had “raised hundreds of millions of dollars, named prominent former US officials to its board, and explored a partnership with the US military to use its tests on the battlefield,” STAT reported. To get Holmes physically into prison was a journey unto itself. At one point, evidence showed her as a potential flight risk. “In the same court filings, prosecutors said Holmes and her partner, William Evans, bought one-way tickets to Mexico in December 2021, a fact confirmed by her lawyers,” Dark Daily’s sister publication The Dark Report revealed in “Elizabeth Holmes’ Appeal Questions Competence of CLIA Lab Director.”

Drama around her move into prison continued. “The former CEO’s attorneys are making last-minute legal moves to delay her prison sentence while she appeals her guilty verdict,” Dark Daily reported. At the same time, Holmes appeared to be on a mission to revamp her public image.

“On May 7, The New York Times profiled Holmes in a massive, 5,000-word story that attempted to portray her as a flawed businessperson who now prefers a simpler life with her partner and two young children,” Dark Daily reported in “Former Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes Fights Prison Sentence While Claiming She Was ‘Not Being Authentic’ with Public Image.”

In the Times piece, Holmes talked about her plans to continue to pursue a life in healthcare. “In the story, Holmes contended that she still thinks about contributing to the clinical laboratory field. Holmes told The Times that she still works on healthcare-related inventions and will continue to do so if she reports to prison,” The Dark Report covered in “Elizabeth Holmes Still Wants ‘To Contribute’ in Healthcare.” In the meantime, her legal fees continued to mount beyond her ability to pay. “Holmes’ prior cadre of lawyers quit after she could not compensate them, The Times reported,” The Dark Report noted. “One pre-sentencing report by the government put her legal fees at more than $30 million,” according to The New York Times.

Apparently, this closes the latest chapter in the never-ending saga of Elizabeth Holmes’ fall from grace and ultimate conviction for defrauding her investors and lying to healthcare executives, pathologists, and clinical laboratory leaders.

Well that sounds like some good news but 90 years where she'd be retired or dead past 1/3 of it.
There is a term in England called a "whole life order" but that is just jail with no possibility of release.

[SiliconWizard]

Damn, 90 years is a long time. I like US justice.

[Kjelt]

Damn, 90 years is a long time. I like US justice.

In this case perhaps but overall they have to do better, worst wrongful conviction ratio in the western world.

[PlainName]

Unless you're happy for readers to think you just knocked that quote up in Word or something, and are prepared for the deluge of copies showing other favourite places are actually the worst, it's best to quote your source.

[ebastler]

In this case perhaps but overall they have to do better, worst wrongful conviction ratio in the western world.

You do understand the difference between "most wrongful convictions" and "most wrongful conviction research"? 
Whoever produced the Q&A you quoted apparently did not, and you seem to have misread it as well.

[floobydust]

It's not a flat legal system- expensive lawyers do better for their clients, getting them off the hook.

Even with convictions, the point I find interesting is that prison is largely ineffective. Recidivism statistics are abysmal for non-violent crimes. We've talked about it before, I forgot the conclusion.
"... About 68 percent of 405,000 prisoners released in 30 states in 2005 were arrested for a new crime within three years of their release from prison, and 77 percent were arrested within five years, and by year nine that number reaches 83 percent."

[tszaboo]

It's not a flat legal system- expensive lawyers do better for their clients, getting them off the hook.

Even with convictions, the point I find interesting is that prison is largely ineffective. Recidivism statistics are abysmal for non-violent crimes. We've talked about it before, I forgot the conclusion.
"... About 68 percent of 405,000 prisoners released in 30 states in 2005 were arrested for a new crime within three years of their release from prison, and 77 percent were arrested within five years, and by year nine that number reaches 83 percent."

Or that the sentence is too short:
https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-publications/research-publications/2022/20220621_Recidivsm-SentLength.pdf
And this study only goes to 10 years. There are countries in Europe where you get 25 years (not reduceable) for repeated (3) violent crime, by default, no consideration by the judge possible.
And somehow the homicide rate is 1/8th of the USA's.

[PlainName]

Doesn't the US suffer from excessive plea bargains? Someone might be innocent, but given the choice between coughing and taking a year, or being done for 20+ years in maximum security if you fight it, you gotta be real sure you're going to win. And have the funds to put your side.

[TimFox]

Doesn't the US suffer from excessive plea bargains? Someone might be innocent, but given the choice between coughing and taking a year, or being done for 20+ years in maximum security if you fight it, you gotta be real sure you're going to win. And have the funds to put your side.

How do you estimate that the number of plea bargains is excessive?
Often, in order to clear the docket, the prosecution offers a reduced sentence in the plea bargain offer, which the defendant is well-advised to accept.
How many other cases do you find in your research?

[coppice]

How do you estimate that the number of plea bargains is excessive?

Anything above zero is an abomination.

[nctnico]

Agreed. Any justice system should not try to push suspects into admitting something they didn't do just to get rid of the hassle, costs and/or endure the charade of a trial by jury. The OJ Simpson case was a complete circus act.

[PlainName]

Often, in order to clear the docket, the prosecution offers a reduced sentence in the plea bargain offer, which the defendant is well-advised to accept.

That would be OK-ish, in that there is a reason to plead guilty, if you are, and save everyone the hassle of a costly and time-consuming trial. But a plea bargain typically swaps a lesser charge for the on that would be made if the defendant is 'uncooperative'. (And who's to say the non-plea charge isn't OTT in order to force a plea, with the expectation that the original charge will never have to be proved?)

An example might be:

A prosecutor agrees to take the death penalty off the table as a penalty in a murder case if the defendant agrees to admit to the crime.

That's a pretty steep penalty for not admitting, isn't it? If you're guilty it's pretty good, but if you're innocent you're screwed albeit still alive. So the benefit of plea  bargains is all for the guilty and the innocent just get stuffed.

[SiliconWizard]

That's a pretty steep penalty for not admitting, isn't it? If you're guilty it's pretty good, but if you're innocent you're screwed albeit still alive. So the benefit of plea  bargains is all for the guilty and the innocent just get stuffed.

Yes, that in itself shows how wrong it is, as it can only benefit the guilty - and the underlying goal being not to benefit the guilty (or at least I hope not) but just to reduce the load on the judiciary system (and thus, its cost).

[TimFox]

Here is some actual information about plea bargaining in US Federal courts, seen from closer to the actual courtroom locations than some flags imply:
https://bja.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh186/files/media/document/pleabargainingresearchsummary.pdf
The authors of the summary are well aware of problems and inequity with the practice, where "the overwhelming majority (90 to 95
percent) of cases result in plea bargaining".

From the conclusion of the article:

"Plea bargaining is an inherent part of the criminal justice system. An official ban on
plea bargaining is therefore impractical. This has even been recognized by various scholars
and policymakers who argue that the system is in need of reform (Barkow, 2006; Bibas,
2001, 2004; Bohm, 2006; Bowen, 2009; Brown, 2005; Gorr, 2000; Guidorizzi, 1998;
Ma, 2002; Stuntz, 2004; Wright, 2005; Zacharias, 1998)"

[PlainName]

From the conclusion of the article:

"Plea bargaining is an inherent part of the criminal justice system. An official ban on
plea bargaining is therefore impractical. This has even been recognized by various scholars
and policymakers who argue that the system is in need of reform (Barkow, 2006; Bibas,
2001, 2004; Bohm, 2006; Bowen, 2009; Brown, 2005; Gorr, 2000; Guidorizzi, 1998;
Ma, 2002; Stuntz, 2004; Wright, 2005; Zacharias, 1998)"

And

"the overwhelming majority (90 to 95 percent) of cases result in plea bargaining"

That is terrible. What makes it so is that the research summary says straight out that prosecutors have too much discretion, that prosecutor "have been found to use threats that coerce defendants into accepting pleas to secure a conviction when the evidence in a case is insubstantial", that "those who go to trial are more likely to receive harsher sentences than those who accept a plea when comparable offenses are considered", etc.

The justification for glossing over the injustice is simply that they don't have time or resources to let everyone exercise their rights. That 90 to 95 percent of cases result in a plea suggests that 20 to 25 percent of those pleading guilty are actually innocent - the UK statistics say 78 to 83 depending on court, and even here not all those found guilty are actually so.

Just one innocent pleading guilty because they are coerced to do so is too many, don't you think?