Flying Tesla Roadster

[langwadt]

yeh, hydrogen cars is a long dead horse that afaict only Toyota keeps beating, I can only assume it because the government is paying them for it

That's a decent head-in-sand view of it. If it were dead, then why are so many going after it?

This is one of many going after H.

A new consortium called MatH2 has been launched to unlock material technology barriers to hydrogen adoption.
Widespread adoption of hydrogen is currently hampered by storage, transport and infrastructure challenges, due to its low density and effects on metals.
The MatH2 consortium aims to address the industry’s urgent need to validate safe, hydrogen compatible materials, by creating a new portfolio of affordable materials and components that withstand hydrogen and other chemicals key to the hydrogen economy, and technologies to enable them.
Established by WISE, a programme led by Finnish technology group Wärtsilä, MatH2 is uniquely placed to unlock Finland’s full hydrogen potential, estimated at up to €34 billion by 2035

solar roadways, gravity batteries with concrete blocks, etc. etc.

[Cyclotron]

yeh, hydrogen cars is a long dead horse that afaict only Toyota keeps beating, I can only assume it because the government is paying them for it

That's a decent head-in-sand view of it. If it were dead, then why are so many going after it?

This is one of many going after H.

A new consortium called MatH2 has been launched to unlock material technology barriers to hydrogen adoption.
Widespread adoption of hydrogen is currently hampered by storage, transport and infrastructure challenges, due to its low density and effects on metals.
The MatH2 consortium aims to address the industry’s urgent need to validate safe, hydrogen compatible materials, by creating a new portfolio of affordable materials and components that withstand hydrogen and other chemicals key to the hydrogen economy, and technologies to enable them.
Established by WISE, a programme led by Finnish technology group Wärtsilä, MatH2 is uniquely placed to unlock Finland’s full hydrogen potential, estimated at up to €34 billion by 2035

solar roadways, gravity batteries with concrete blocks, etc. etc.

It seems pretty obvious to me that Randy222 is using an LLM to argue for him. I wouldn't waste your time. Bad-faith arguments from LLMs are just as bad as his own.     

He wrote the first two sentences, then pasted the LLM response. The problem is, he didn't read what MatH2 is about, and I don't think he would understand it. Just more Randy222 trolling.

Multi-partner consortia like MatH2 frequently turn into academic "paper mills" that produce thick reports, unlock the next round of government grant funding, and deliver zero commercial products. Randy222's LLM response has no connection to the BEV market or to his completely wrong belief that hydrogen will swoop in and take over.

[Randy222]

3. Hydrogen fuel cells require platinum, which is often recycled from scrap vehicles, and Japan's recycling industry here is among the best in the world.  Also, it is an industry that Japan has invested heavily into, and is not one China has made much headway in.

Yeah, but not all H power needs platinum.

https://www.swri.org/markets/automotive-transportation/automotive/hydrogen-powered-vehicles/hydrogen-internal-combustion-engine-2-h2-ice2-consortium

[Randy222]

Multi-partner consortia like MatH2 frequently turn into academic "paper mills" that produce thick reports, unlock the next round of government grant funding, and deliver zero commercial products. Randy222's LLM response has no connection to the BEV market or to his completely wrong belief that hydrogen will swoop in and take over.

The anti-H crowd is strong, yet a bit ignorant of the facts.

I could list 2dozen sites that show just how much R&D is going on with H, you'll just say it's some BS paper mill.

What's wrong with this one?
https://hydrogencouncil.com/


And this BMW push to H is also just fake? Nah, the dev vehicle later turned into a fleet.
https://www.bmwgroup.com/en/news/general/2019/bmw-i-hydrogen-next.html

Wholly shit, BMW uses H tech stack built by Toyota !!!   

Since the summer of 2015, the BMW Group’s research wing has been testing a small fleet of prototype BMW 5 Series GT hydrogen fuel cell vehicles powered by a jointly developed drive system with a Toyota fuel cell stack.

[Analog Kid]

And this BMW push to H is also just fake?
https://www.bmwgroup.com/en/news/general/2019/bmw-i-hydrogen-next.html

I wonder about the timeliness of that undertaking:

With the unveiling of the BMW i Hydrogen NEXT at the 2019 Frankfurt Motor Show (IAA), the BMW Group is demonstrating its ability to complement its electrified vehicle portfolio with the deployment of hydrogen-powered fuel cell technology.

In 2022, the BMW Group is planning to present the next generation of hydrogen fuel cell electric drive systems in a small-series vehicle based on the current BMW X5. The BMW i Hydrogen NEXT provides an initial glimpse of what this model has in store. The BMW Group would start offering fuel cell vehicles for customers in 2025 at the earliest, but the timing very much depends on market requirements and overall conditions.

Since 2025 is the latest date mentioned here, one wonders what the state of this project is today.
Anybody know?

[Randy222]

Since 2025 is the latest date mentioned here, one wonders what the state of this project is today.
Anybody know?

Persistently strong, is the answer. H dev/innovation keeps moving fwd, because the dev folks are trying to solve a big problem. Batt EVs do not solve the problem.

[Cyclotron]

Multi-partner consortia like MatH2 frequently turn into academic "paper mills" that produce thick reports, unlock the next round of government grant funding, and deliver zero commercial products. Randy222's LLM response has no connection to the BEV market or to his completely wrong belief that hydrogen will swoop in and take over.

The anti-H crowd is strong, yet a bit ignorant of the facts.

I could list 2dozen sites that show just how much R&D is going on with H, you'll just say it's some BS paper mill.

What's wrong with this one?
https://hydrogencouncil.com/


And this BMW push to H is also just fake? Nah, the dev vehicle later turned into a fleet.
https://www.bmwgroup.com/en/news/general/2019/bmw-i-hydrogen-next.html

Wholly shit, BMW uses H tech stack built by Toyota !!!   

Since the summer of 2015, the BMW Group’s research wing has been testing a small fleet of prototype BMW 5 Series GT hydrogen fuel cell vehicles powered by a jointly developed drive system with a Toyota fuel cell stack.

Troll....

[mikeselectricstuff]

3. Hydrogen fuel cells require platinum, which is often recycled from scrap vehicles, and Japan's recycling industry here is among the best in the world.  Also, it is an industry that Japan has invested heavily into, and is not one China has made much headway in.

Yeah, but not all H power needs platinum.

https://www.swri.org/markets/automotive-transportation/automotive/hydrogen-powered-vehicles/hydrogen-internal-combustion-engine-2-h2-ice2-consortium

H2 combustion is even more wasteful than ICE, and you still  have Nox emissions to deal with

[mikeselectricstuff]

Some more perspective on H2 :

[mikeselectricstuff]

The only case where hydrogen might be better would be rare instances of truckers that share a cab and rotate driving roles whilst the other rests.  AFAIK, this is only common in places like the USA where a premium might be paid for next day delivery.  In most of Europe, cargo like that goes by air.

And for those cases, operating from fixed locations with dedicated infrastructure, battery swapping is probably a better option.

[nctnico]

3. Hydrogen fuel cells require platinum, which is often recycled from scrap vehicles, and Japan's recycling industry here is among the best in the world.  Also, it is an industry that Japan has invested heavily into, and is not one China has made much headway in.

But the amount of platinum is on par with the amount needed for a catalytic converter commonly found on gasoline cars.

Anyway, people still argueing against hydrogen cars are argueing against what is already been set in motion.    Even battery technology is gearing up! Sodium batteries last for about 10k cycles. If you are going to use these in a BEV with a range of 500km, the batteries are only worn for about 10% after 500k km. That is 25 to 30 years of using a BEV domestically (commuting / holiday trips). Most cars end up on the scrap heap long before that. That is a huge waste of materials and far from cost effective. OTOH, sodium batteries are ideal for hybrids and fuel cell based cars which benefit precisely from the advantages of Sodium batteries. So why didn't battery manufacturers optimise for better density which would bring much more advantage to a BEV ?

[EEVblog]

yeh, hydrogen cars is a long dead horse that afaict only Toyota keeps beating, I can only assume it because the government is paying them for it

That's a decent head-in-sand view of it. If it were dead, then why are so many going after it?

Because you can get free government and sucker investment money because it's "novel".
Same reason why Solar Roadways has been going 18 years.
People follow incentives.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I could list 2dozen sites that show just how much R&D is going on with H, you'll just say it's some BS paper mill.

You can do all the R&D you like, but can't beat the laws of physics. H
ydrogen has yet to prove any level of real-world practicality & overcome fundamental physical limitations, despite having been trying tried for at least as long as the EV industry. 

What's wrong with this one?
https://hydrogencouncil.com/

Let's see...
"Steering members" : multiple gas suppliers, a couple of oil companies, a few legacy auto makers, a major supplier of platinum...
All people you'd expect to try to push their own interests regardless of actual practicality.
If you want something actually useful to do with hydrogen, use it to decarbonise steelmaking.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Anyway, people still argueing against hydrogen cars are argueing against what is already been set in motion.

Setting in motion how exactly? Like Nikola pushing their truck down a hill?

Even battery technology is gearing up! Sodium batteries last for about 10k cycles. If you are going to use these in a BEV with a range of 500km, the batteries are only worn for about 10% after 500k km. That is 25 to 30 years of using a BEV domestically (commuting / holiday trips). Most cars end up on the scrap heap long before that. That is a huge waste of materials and far from cost effective. OTOH, sodium batteries are ideal for hybrids and fuel cell based cars which benefit precisely from the advantages of Sodium batteries.

Using any kind of battery in a vehicle that also either burns hydrocarbons or uses a laughably inefficient fuel source has to be a bigger waste of resources overall.
500k km batteries aren't going to end up on a scrapheap

So why didn't battery manufacturers optimise for better density which would bring much more advantage to a BEV ?

Because at least at the moment, cost is by far the most important thing to optimise for.
Density is already pretty much there, and will become less important as infrastructure continues to improve, reducing the need for long range.

[Cyclotron]

3. Hydrogen fuel cells require platinum, which is often recycled from scrap vehicles, and Japan's recycling industry here is among the best in the world.  Also, it is an industry that Japan has invested heavily into, and is not one China has made much headway in.

But the amount of platinum is on par with the amount needed for a catalytic converter commonly found on gasoline cars.

Anyway, people still argueing against hydrogen cars are argueing against what is already been set in motion.    Even battery technology is gearing up! Sodium batteries last for about 10k cycles. If you are going to use these in a BEV with a range of 500km, the batteries are only worn for about 10% after 500k km. That is 25 to 30 years of using a BEV domestically (commuting / holiday trips). Most cars end up on the scrap heap long before that. That is a huge waste of materials and far from cost effective. OTOH, sodium batteries are ideal for hybrids and fuel cell based cars which benefit precisely from the advantages of Sodium batteries. So why didn't battery manufacturers optimise for better density which would bring much more advantage to a BEV ?

No one is arguing against hydrogen fuel cell technology.  I'm waiting for the people that try to sell a hydrogen fuel cell car to the 16k people in California that bought most of the Mirai and are suing Toyota over it.  Seems like the early adopters aborted.

There's no infrastructure. The literal pipe dream is converting NG infrastructure, expecting something substantial in Europe by 2040-ish. In the US and CA, there aren't even plans, and the best estimates for when that might even be considered stretch into 2050 and 2060.  So folks can come by my grave, shake their fingers at me, and say, "I told you so."

Now that backbone that Europe is building with connections, maybe starting in 2040-ish?  Yeah, it's not for EVs; it's meant to supply energy to heavy industry, and nobody here in this thread is arguing that this isn't happening or will happen.

As agreed, heavy transport has a chance of succeeding. For hydrogen to replace the BEV, it will have to get its butt in gear. Batteries keep evolving; the technology demonstrated in the Roasters2 is one example.  Where is all of the research money going for passenger cars?  Why have we had nearly 20 years of hydrogen promises, and all we have is a class-action lawsuit?

If you know something I don't or can't find, fill me in.

[mikeselectricstuff]

sodium batteries are ideal for hybrids and fuel cell based cars which benefit precisely from the advantages of Sodium batteries.

The lower cost of sodium is an even bigger benefit for BEVs, as the cost saving isn't diluted by the cost of the fuel cell or hybrid stuff.
AIUI one issue with sodium is a wider voltage range over discharge, but if necessary this can be dealt with by inverter architecture at relatively low additional cost, more than outweighed by the reduced battery cost.

[jonovid]

reckless driving then & now!

[Psi]

For hydrogen to actually take over from battery EVs there would need to be a one-in-100-year physics/chemistry discovery that suddenly made hydrogen way cheaper and easier to store/roll-out compared to the battery EVs we have now.

About the only thing I can think of would be somehow finding a way to store hydrogen in some weird liquid hydride form that is stable at atmospheric pressure but able to release H2 on demand when asked to. That way you could roll it out to existing gas stations with some modifications.  It would also obviously need to have way lower cost per mile than ICE and Battery EVs.

Believe in that if you want, or better yet, put it on polymarket so the rest of us can make money.