-
I'd argue there can be no reason with faith if you're using the definition of the word that applies to religion.
Reason is based on axioms. Choose different axioms and you will end up with different conclusions. One possible axiom is 'deity X exists'.
Don't get too concern on how other people choose to model the world, just make sure they don't force it on you.
Axiom - another word worth looking up.
Axioms are things with are self evidently true. Axioms aren't 'chosen' and if they conflict such that they lead to different results, then something wasn't axiomatic to start with.
And "diety x exists" is, by definition, not an axiom.
'Self evidence' is a subjective choice. -
You obviously don't know what the word means.
Giving credit to the Jewish lobby for being a fantastically successful group hardly qualifies, but sometimes when all you have is a hammer - everything looks like a nail.
That Jews, thanks to the devout work of a "Jewish lobby", monopolize American foreign policy, is an anti-Semitic claim, just as that homosexuals, thanks to the devout work of a "homosexual lobby", monopolize the Democratic Party, is a homophobic claim. If you either make or staunchly defend such claims, either out of a combination of stupidity and ignorance or actual malevolence, you run the risk of being called or labeled a bigot regardless. Even though it shouldn't need to be said, I'll point out that I'm not drawing any parallels between the persecution of Jews and the persecution of homosexuals here anyway.
No compliments are intended for any minority group accused of conspiracy to invoke their own monopoly. More so than without you are really digging the hole for yourself that little bit deeper every time you blurt out the term "Jewish lobby" without being specific about exactly what group of people you mean and exactly what they have supposedly been so "fantastically successful" at, to borrow Dawkins bombastic words. An implied "Jewish lobby", as generally representative of an entire, diverse, minority-section of society (and by logical deduction an impressive feat of collusion, conspiracy and back-handed organization) successful at monopolizing American foreign affairs policy? Ha! don't make me laugh.
Orac, author of the "Respectful Insolence" blog didn't actually go as far as he or she could have in his or her factual statement that: "The implication (or outright statement) that Jews somehow control American foreign policy (or have undue power) is a staple of anti-Semitic and Holocaust denial websites everywhere."
The idea of a malevolent, behind-the-scenes conspiracy between Jews to monopolize and control society to their own ends to the detriment of everyone else as been at the very root of anti-Semitism probably since the very first anti-Jewish pogroms; eventually elevated beyond the status of the Christ-killing accusation by the Russian historical fabrication known as the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and ultimately paving the way to Kristallnacht and the final solution.
Though there is an element of truth in that people of Jewish descent often cut above their own weight in society, compared to non-Jews. One of the first things that becomes apparent, to anyone engaging in even a cursory study of Jewish history, is the relative diversity of ideology amongst even small populations of Jews. I don't believe that this is due to any superiority of a Jewish "race", but merely the fact that, being in a rather specific way a "stateless" people, and not bound to the dictates of established, state-sponsored ecclesiastical authorities, there was a great deal more freedom for diversity and exploration amongst Jews in all matters intellectual. Jews excelled markedly in academia, commerce, political thought. For example when Nazi Germany enacted the Nuremberg laws and revoked the citizenship of all Jewish citizens in the mid '30s, the academic and other institutions of higher learning lost on the order of 1/3 of their brains overnight. The comparative intellectual freedom amongst Jews and the fruits it bore were both a blessing and a curse; a curse because it made the deranged accusations of antisemitism so much easier to stick.
To the simpleton the successful Jew was always an object of suspicion and contempt - not simply the product of effort and his or her comparative intellectual freedom, but a connivance between Jews to artificially elevate themselves in society above non Jews.
-
Dear GK:
--Well said.
"If you had had a nickel for every nickel that he has, you would have a lot of nickels."
Albert Einstein 1879 - 1955
Best Regards
Clear Ether -
There is certainly a ludicrously powerful pro-Israel lobby in American politics:
"It’s almost politically suicidal ... for a member of Congress who wants to seek re-election to take any stand that might be interpreted as anti-policy of the conservative Israeli government."
That was Morris Amitay, former AIPAC director.
As has been observed, Dawkins' mistake was to equate being Jewish with support for Israel. He should perhaps have been more aware of this considering that Stephen Fry, a prominent fellow British atheist, is a member of Jews for Justice for Palestinians, a UK-based group which opposes the current Israeli policy towards the Palestinian territories.
-
Greetings EEVBees:
--Professor Dawkins is indeed respected for his writings on evolution. And yes he does do a rather good job of driving back the philistines, albeit sometimes with the jaw bone of an ass. When I was 10 years old, I had a chemistry set and a microscope and lived with my grandmother, a school teacher who was not a believer. She was often affiliated with Methodist Church social scenes for the fellowship and also because she was a professional singer at weddings, funerals and what have you. So I was not taught faith, but I was taught respect and to keep my mouth shut. When I moved to Florida I began to encounter Baptist Bible Beaters at school, and was forced to ask them things like: "Do you really think the sun stood still when Joshua lay siege to Jericho". My debate opponents were usually to young to have learned humility or how to fake it, and would tell me I was going to Hell, and I would say, so do you believe that the sun goes around the earth, like the Bible says, or are you a goddamned atheist? I am quite familiar with the kind of folks that Dawkins chooses to engage with.
--When people say that the Jews have too much power, I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop. You know, Jewish Banking Cabals and the like. Suppose I said, in this blog that the Homosexual Lobby has too much power or that Women have too much power. Can you imagine my being allowed to get away with it?
--So when I debate the arguably antisemite Jew Baiters, in this blog, I fondly recall debating the Buckle of the Bible Belt Baptist Bible Beaters of my boyhood. Shalom.
PS I love Stephen Fry, but disagree with him about many things.
"No burden is so heavy for a man to bear as a succession of happy days."
Max Planck 1858 - 1947
Best Regards
Clear Ether -
--When people say that the Jews have too much power, I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop. You know, Jewish Banking Cabals and the like. Suppose I said, in this blog that the Homosexual Lobby has too much power or that Women have too much power. Can you imagine my being allowed to get away with it?
Very good observation. Statements like that are often an indicator of something much deeper. -
May I remind those who are offended by something said in this thread, from the forum rules:
In a public forum you have no right NOT to be offended by something.
But of course, religious thread have a habit of being shut down on here, don't make me do that.
I think the original post is interesting because it highlights hate mail, something of which most content producers, or those who speak their mind eventually get.
I would read some of my hate mail, but all hateful email is simply deleted. Although there is probably plenty of fodder on youtube comments on some old videos. But I'm pretty proactive in deleting and banning the vile stuff these days.
-
Everyone just needs to lighten up.
-
In my experience running a website can even get you death threats! Over a decade ago I was involved in a website which listed companies. The person dealing with customer service got a death threat from someone who didn't want us to list his company.
We went to the police which reluctantly took notice but they also took action by visiting the offender. Later (long after we removed the address) he send an e-mail complaining we send the police after him 
In Dutch we have a saying which comes down to 'The Lord has strange lodgers' to note there are many strange people on this world. -
'The Lord has strange lodgers'
Amen to that!
-
In Dutch we have a saying which comes down to 'The Lord has strange lodgers' to note there are many strange people on this world.
Jim Morrison said the same thing:
-
Now you know where he got it from!
-
--So when I debate the arguably antisemite Jew Baiters, in this blog, I fondly recall debating the Buckle of the Bible Belt Baptist Bible Beaters of my boyhood. Shalom.
That's a fair association, I think.
-
What's worse than a religious nutter? An atheist nutter. They both get the big
.
The biggest religion in the world is Stuff. An evil religion, doomed to fail as the planet gets overpopulated with people demanding more of Stuff. People do anything to get more Stuff. They will work long hours, mothers will leave their kids with someone else... just to get more Stuff. Now the Chinese have discovered Stuff and have joined the West in worshipping Stuff, filling Stuff's offering plate with huge sums of money. People in the West will walk over their fellow man, just to get more Stuff. Stuff is the great deceiver. You will never be satisfied no matter how much Stuff you get.
"Stuff off", I hear you say?
Here endeth the lesson.
-
What's worse than a religious nutter? An atheist nutter. They both get the big
.
The biggest religion in the world is Stuff. An evil religion, doomed to fail as the planet gets overpopulated with people demanding more of Stuff. People do anything to get more Stuff. They will work long hours, mothers will leave their kids with someone else... just to get more Stuff. Now the Chinese have discovered Stuff and have joined the West in worshipping Stuff, filling Stuff's offering plate with huge sums of money. People in the West will walk over their fellow man, just to get more Stuff. Stuff is the great deceiver. You will never be satisfied no matter how much Stuff you get.
"Stuff off", I hear you say?
Here endeth the lesson.
Amen brother. Well said!
Says another imperfect soul fighting the allure of more stuff.. -
What's worse than a religious nutter? An atheist nutter. They both get the big
.
The biggest religion in the world is Stuff. An evil religion, doomed to fail as the planet gets overpopulated with people demanding more of Stuff. People do anything to get more Stuff. They will work long hours, mothers will leave their kids with someone else... just to get more Stuff. Now the Chinese have discovered Stuff and have joined the West in worshipping Stuff, filling Stuff's offering plate with huge sums of money. People in the West will walk over their fellow man, just to get more Stuff. Stuff is the great deceiver. You will never be satisfied no matter how much Stuff you get.
"Stuff off", I hear you say?
Here endeth the lesson.
I see that the church of less stuff uses FUD trying to convert the competition.
There is only one true church, the church of NOYB.
;-) -
PS I love Stephen Fry, but disagree with him about many things.
Well, geez, I don't know, if people like Stephen Fry gave up campaigning for a "free" Palestine, they might eventually run out of chicken cordon bleu over there:
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001114.html
Just contemplate the utter horror! OK, that was facile. I ignore that there is a war raging over there against that particularly virulent and nasty aggressor - you know, the one allied to the evil (only second in culpability) USA (now lets not bother to list its numerous other western allies). So nasty is that aggressor that the impoverished Palestinians have no other option but to have zero tolerance for traitors in their midst:
*** images removed by moderator ***
EDIT: Images "removed by moderator" found here (under "How moderate Muslims are treated" - click at your own discretion): http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/IslamicMilitancy.html
Now if these poor impoverished people treat their own kind this way, then one can only imagine what they desire for the aggressor, and since it appears to be the general consensus (amongst the Fry types) that it is the aggressor that forces them to behave this way, then it only follows that the aggressor must be that much worse, right?
I'm sure the Israelis treat traitors in their own midst much worse, and the public butchery and display of non-hardliners on the other side of the wall is a weekly affair just the same, but you know, that kind of shit would never ever make it to the papers due to cover-up and manipulation by that "Jewish-monopolized" USA.
PS
Strong serving of sarcasm in parts above (obviously).
-
What's worse than a religious nutter? An atheist nutter. They both get the big
I hoard you!.
The biggest religion in the world is Stuff. An evil religion, doomed to fail as the planet gets overpopulated with people demanding more of Stuff. People do anything to get more Stuff. They will work long hours, mothers will leave their kids with someone else... just to get more Stuff. Now the Chinese have discovered Stuff and have joined the West in worshipping Stuff, filling Stuff's offering plate with huge sums of money. People in the West will walk over their fellow man, just to get more Stuff. Stuff is the great deceiver. You will never be satisfied no matter how much Stuff you get.
"Stuff off", I hear you say?