How Important Is Math In Electrical Engineering Technology Degree?/job

[sarepairman2]

the age old battle between theorists and practicalists. 

keep in mind, the answers may be biased by what you paid (student loans) for.

[CatalinaWOW]

The battle is age old because both answers, taken in exclusion of the other, are wrong.  The very best practitioners of our art are capable of applying both types of answers to a wide range of problems.  Choosing the best approach in each case.

Anyone who is lacking skills from either side of the divide is crippled.  Perhaps not in a disabling manner, but crippled.

[Mastrofski]

In fact my department head told me he's only used calculus once in his career, and that was for a certification exam in our industry, and after that he's relied all on app notes and datasheets.

And here is the thing, app notes and datasheets don't appear by themselves. So behind them are people who really understand what they are doing and can create something original rather than simply copying typical circuit from the datasheet. If you want to be on the other side of the datasheet, then, well, you need to do math.

I get what you're saying but I don't think it has anything to do with originality. We come up with a fair amount of products where we end up piecing together circuit blocks that other people have developed in order to accomplish new tasks. That being said, I know a few of my colleagues have ended up at an international controls company and they do all of the S-Domain math because they need the mathematical model for their controls systems. It all depends on the industry and scope of a companies product line. If you don't have to reinvent the wheel, then why would you?

[jaxbird]

There seem to be a development where, at least in the US, where you pay to attend university, it basically means you pay for your degree. The university's best interest is that all students graduate and it's the same for the students, so unless you quit or fail really badly, you are likely to get your degree.

This does however mean a university degree doesn't hold much value anymore.

[sarepairman2]

The battle is age old because both answers, taken in exclusion of the other, are wrong.  The very best practitioners of our art are capable of applying both types of answers to a wide range of problems.  Choosing the best approach in each case.

Anyone who is lacking skills from either side of the divide is crippled.  Perhaps not in a disabling manner, but crippled.

or the very best practitioners are part of a team 

[ROBOT]

There seem to be a development where, at least in the US, where you pay to attend university, it basically means you pay for your degree. The university's best interest is that all students graduate and it's the same for the students, so unless you quit or fail really badly, you are likely to get your degree.

This does however mean a university degree doesn't hold much value anymore.

Unfortunately for some companies it is. I do about maybe 95% of the work of what the engineers at my current job do.

However to get the 2x increase in pay I need the piece of paper. There are some smaller companies I am aware of who have gone away with this and with enough experience they will give you an engineering title and appropriate pay. (maybe a bit less but still)

[D3f1ant]

How much bearing your qualification has depends very much where you work. I know of more than one extremely highly paid 'engineer' with almost no qualifications at all. They are highly paid because they are brilliant, 'school' just didn't work for them. I have let people with A+ qualifications go because they simply didn't have a good aptitude for engineering. Once your in the door, what you actually achieve will have a far greater bearing on your future than the piece of paper.

[tggzzz]

Engineers vs technicians is a dimwitted argument. It is as stupid as asking which is better, a doctor or a nurse.

When I'm in hospital I don't want a nurse choosing my treatment, nor do I want a doctor inserting a needle.  Horses for courses.

A nurse that thinks they can do everything a doctor does is dangerous. A doctor that thinks they are better than a nurse is an ignorant fool.

[IanB]

When I was young a short story ("Profession") by Isaac Asimov was sufficiently thought provoking that I still remember its basic point. It is now available on the web at http://www.abelard.org/asimov.php and that page's author notes "Isaac Asimov’s Profession is an allegorical description of the manner in which education currently functions in our primitive western societies. Although it may not have been Asimov's intention, I have included this story as a warning of the weakness of Western education."

It is worth a speed read, and is directly relevant to this discussion.

Good read. I think it's the first time I have read that story. I should probably go back through Asimov's work and see what else I haven't read yet.

[timb]

Engineers vs technicians is a dimwitted argument. It is as stupid as asking which is better, a doctor or a nurse.

When I'm in hospital I don't want a nurse choosing my treatment, nor do I want a doctor inserting a needle.  Horses for courses.

A nurse that thinks they can do everything a doctor does is dangerous. A doctor that thinks they are better than a nurse is an ignorant fool.

What about a Nurse Practitioner (aka Prescribing Nurse)?

[tggzzz]

Engineers vs technicians is a dimwitted argument. It is as stupid as asking which is better, a doctor or a nurse.

When I'm in hospital I don't want a nurse choosing my treatment, nor do I want a doctor inserting a needle.  Horses for courses.

A nurse that thinks they can do everything a doctor does is dangerous. A doctor that thinks they are better than a nurse is an ignorant fool.

What about a Nurse Practitioner (aka Prescribing Nurse)?

If they exist over here, I presume their options are carefully and explicitly limited. When I've been in hospital I've needed more than a routine medication.

But you knew that, and you know the point of the analogy.

[LabSpokane]

There seem to be a development where, at least in the US, where you pay to attend university, it basically means you pay for your degree. The university's best interest is that all students graduate and it's the same for the students, so unless you quit or fail really badly, you are likely to get your degree.

This does however mean a university degree doesn't hold much value anymore.

Unfortunately for some companies it is. I do about maybe 95% of the work of what the engineers at my current job do.

However to get the 2x increase in pay I need the piece of paper. There are some smaller companies I am aware of who have gone away with this and with enough experience they will give you an engineering title and appropriate pay. (maybe a bit less but still)

Just the fact that you consider an education to be no more than a "piece of paper" is everything I need to recommend that you not get the degree, particularly an engineering degree.

My only regret about getting my degrees is that I did not take even more courses and get my Ph.D. My 75 year old former boss is retired but still studies math and engineering.  In fact, everyone I respect in engineering is a perpetual student. There is no "piece of paper" and done in our field.

[photon]

When I was young a short story ("Profession") by Isaac Asimov was sufficiently thought provoking that I still remember its basic point. It is now available on the web at http://www.abelard.org/asimov.php and that page's author notes "Isaac Asimov’s Profession is an allegorical description of the manner in which education currently functions in our primitive western societies. Although it may not have been Asimov's intention, I have included this story as a warning of the weakness of Western education."

It is worth a speed read, and is directly relevant to this discussion.

Good read. I think it's the first time I have read that story. I should probably go back through Asimov's work and see what else I haven't read yet.

Yes, very fascinating science fiction.

For this discussion I'll add that we in this forum are using mathematics. Logic is the basis of science and a discipline inside mathematics. Though its use may be faulty in a post, we are all able to apply logic to a post and find any problems. This is what makes this forum interesting.

[coppice]

Yep, and many others can spend their entire career without using calculus once.

Even basic calculus? I just a hobbyist, I'm only 16 and I have had to use calculus multiple times for just basic hobby electronics. I mainly use it for optimization trying to get the minimum power dissipation from a component depending on other variables.

Even yesterday I wanted to calculate the power consumption of an ESP8266 over 15mins in a specific use case including all the transients. I had to use basic Riemann sums to work out the Charge then energy then average power consumption. I use it all the time.

 I'm surprised people can do real electronics work without it, never mind getting into the actually complicated stuff.

The problem is in any corporation spending 15 minutes on something like this likely be frowned upon by upper management. Especially with deadlines.

It's all about cost optimization. If you can get the design done without doing this the company makes more money!

Being able to approximate and over design is sometimes more cost effective. Especially on low volume stuff. What's the hourly overhead rate for a electrical engineer? $120+ an hour? If you spend 2 hours doing math you could spend an extra 5 cents on a component.  If your only making ~6000 boards.

Don't be silly. Who's going to buy your 6000 boards for a reasonable margin if you can't even tell potential customers their energy consumption. A lack of supporting information puts you in the bargain basement, where its desperately hard to break even, let alone see a profit.

You can measure that after the fact... For probably cheaper than calculating. Remember calculations can be wrong!

With a bursty local most power/energy measurements are far worse than predicted ones. You can't measure something like Aodhan145 is describing in one go. The only way you get any numbers for the maths is by measurement. Then you need to integrate them into a final result. Measurement and calculation complement each other.

[CatalinaWOW]

Science fiction explores a lot of things.  It may be a thousand monkey solution but the genre does come up with some real truths.  I've long forgotten the author and story name of one of my favorites, but the plot has stuck with me.  The gist of the story follows.  Sorry about the lengthy version, if I were a better author I might not have been an engineer.

A senator is on a Jovian moon for a celebration celebrating a theoretical breakthrough proving that force fields have a limitation on the product of strength and duration.  This is important because the inhabitants of Jupiter itself have discovered that life exists elsewhere in the solar system and are offended by the fact, promising to eliminate the problem.  The large size of Jupiter assures that its military capability will exceed anything the rest of the solar system can do, but without force fields strength of materials limitations will keep the Jovians trapped on the surface of their planet.  No pressure vessel can hold their surface atmospheric pressure in a vacuum.

At the celebration the theoreticians disparage technicians who have caused many explosions in laboratories experimenting with force fields, and touts his proof that force field pressure vessels are impossible.  Everyone pats each other on the back and the celebration breaks up.  The senators aid whisks him off for a ride home on a newly developed spaceship.

The senator quickly realizes that there is no visible hull to the space ship, the air is held in by a force field.  The technician owner, who is missing an arm from an explosion during force field experiments, disparages theoreticians saying they have no idea of practical work.  After his accident he quickly realized that the force field couldn't be left on too long, and devised a way to cycle it quickly, turning it off before it explodes, and turning it on before the air has a chance to expand meaningfully.

The message I take from this is that theory is very good about telling the limits and best application of known ways to do things.  It may or may not define the limits of what can be done.  And that neither technicians or theoreticians own all of the brains in the world.

[ROBOT]

There seem to be a development where, at least in the US, where you pay to attend university, it basically means you pay for your degree. The university's best interest is that all students graduate and it's the same for the students, so unless you quit or fail really badly, you are likely to get your degree.

This does however mean a university degree doesn't hold much value anymore.

Unfortunately for some companies it is. I do about maybe 95% of the work of what the engineers at my current job do.

However to get the 2x increase in pay I need the piece of paper. There are some smaller companies I am aware of who have gone away with this and with enough experience they will give you an engineering title and appropriate pay. (maybe a bit less but still)

Just the fact that you consider an education to be no more than a "piece of paper" is everything I need to recommend that you not get the degree, particularly an engineering degree.

My only regret about getting my degrees is that I did not take even more courses and get my Ph.D. My 75 year old former boss is retired but still studies math and engineering.  In fact, everyone I respect in engineering is a perpetual student. There is no "piece of paper" and done in our field.

Well you sir are a buzzkill.

[NiHaoMike]

One form of math that isn't taught in the basic university classes is how to effectively use fixed point arithmetic. That's of most relevance when dealing with embedded systems that generally don't have FPUs, but there are other reasons to use fixed point. In particular, look at how floating point has a lot of "traps for young players" so you'll know where you need to take action to avoid those, including sometimes by using fixed point.

And then there are bit level tricks that are very efficient to implement. Most obvious is shifting to multiply/divide by powers of 2.

[Brumby]

My view is this: Mathematics is a language - and how well you need know it will depend on where you will be using it.

It is well to appreciate there are levels of complexity (such as arithmetic - algebra - calculus) and to understand the capabilities of each.  However, one should also to have the ability to identify where to go when solving a problem - including 'out of the box', such as in the Edison anecdote.  Teamwork can be a mixed blessing here.

In short, I believe it is important to understand what mathematical processes are available and their fundamental operating principles - but not necessarily to have expertise in them.  As long as you understand the basics, you can develop the expertise.


In a personal example, when I was in High School, I was fascinated by calculus.  It appeared to me as an elegant and powerful tool and I developed my skills to be able to handle some insanely complicated formulae.  However, in the Higher School Certificate exams (final high school state exams) there was just one very simple question on calculus.  That really ticked me off, but I would suggest this experience is going to be typical in a workplace.  I haven't had need to use much calculus over the years and my skills have atrophied somewhat - but having had the knowledge, they could be resurrected if the need arises.


IMHO - what matters is not necessarily having the answer, but knowing where to go to get it - and quickly.  In the commercial world, time is the master.

[coppice]

One form of math that isn't taught in the basic university classes is how to effectively use fixed point arithmetic. That's of most relevance when dealing with embedded systems that generally don't have FPUs, but there are other reasons to use fixed point. In particular, look at how floating point has a lot of "traps for young players" so you'll know where you need to take action to avoid those, including sometimes by using fixed point.

And then there are bit level tricks that are very efficient to implement. Most obvious is shifting to multiply/divide by powers of 2.

In most places practical numerical methods, like fixed point arithmetic, don't even seem to be that well covered if you take things like the DSP options.

[Dave]

When I was young a short story ("Profession") by Isaac Asimov was sufficiently thought provoking that I still remember its basic point. It is now available on the web at http://www.abelard.org/asimov.php and that page's author notes "Isaac Asimov’s Profession is an allegorical description of the manner in which education currently functions in our primitive western societies. Although it may not have been Asimov's intention, I have included this story as a warning of the weakness of Western education."

It is worth a speed read, and is directly relevant to this discussion.

Thanks for posting this here, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

[LabSpokane]

There seem to be a development where, at least in the US, where you pay to attend university, it basically means you pay for your degree. The university's best interest is that all students graduate and it's the same for the students, so unless you quit or fail really badly, you are likely to get your degree.

This does however mean a university degree doesn't hold much value anymore.

Unfortunately for some companies it is. I do about maybe 95% of the work of what the engineers at my current job do.

However to get the 2x increase in pay I need the piece of paper. There are some smaller companies I am aware of who have gone away with this and with enough experience they will give you an engineering title and appropriate pay. (maybe a bit less but still)

Just the fact that you consider an education to be no more than a "piece of paper" is everything I need to recommend that you not get the degree, particularly an engineering degree.

My only regret about getting my degrees is that I did not take even more courses and get my Ph.D. My 75 year old former boss is retired but still studies math and engineering.  In fact, everyone I respect in engineering is a perpetual student. There is no "piece of paper" and done in our field.

Well you sir are a buzzkill.

The fact that you aren't looking forward to a lifetime of learning is a disappointing quality in a future engineer. 

[Tomorokoshi]

I too went for several years without using more than algebra and HEX conversions. However, over the last couple years some problems came up where although I didn't really understand the math, I knew it was there, so I studied up on it. I was able to go back and start to understand why someone would use, in this case, Laplace transforms, along with some other methods.

Going back to review and apply that information is "closing the loops" for several things I've been working on where the answer is achieved iteratively, without a strong analytical basis for why it's working.

Perhaps I'll be able to make use of it. If even a small improvement in efficiency or quality is possible, then so much the better.

[Red Squirrel]

I'm still a noob at electronics, and from reading it seems math definitely is something you need to know to be good at electronics, that will definitely be a stumbling block for me as math has always been my weakness. 

[tggzzz]

However to get the 2x increase in pay I need the piece of paper.

It is revealing that you consider a degree to be a "piece of paper". That indicates you very deeply misunderstand what a degree is.

If you want more money, change profession. Sorted.

[tggzzz]

When I was young a short story ("Profession") by Isaac Asimov was sufficiently thought provoking that I still remember its basic point. It is now available on the web at http://www.abelard.org/asimov.php and that page's author notes "Isaac Asimov’s Profession is an allegorical description of the manner in which education currently functions in our primitive western societies. Although it may not have been Asimov's intention, I have included this story as a warning of the weakness of Western education."

It is worth a speed read, and is directly relevant to this discussion.

Thanks for posting this here, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

You're welcome. I think I'll repost the link the next time this topic rears its head!