How Important Is Math In Electrical Engineering Technology Degree?/job

[tggzzz]

An engineer approaching a job will first determine what they do and don't need to understand and do to successfully complete the job. Frequently that will involve doing quick back-of-the-envelope calculations - which requires understanding their validity and limits. If quick calculations indicate some aspect is near the boundary of validity, then more accurate detailed calculations are required.

Yes, but the issue is with the type of math required.
In the majority of the cases it's relatively simple stuff.
Most practical electronics engineers won't be solving triple integrals.

A practical electronics engineer is likely going to need statistics more than calculus in their career for example.
To do all that requires a good familiarity and understand of mathmatics.

I agree statistics are important, and nowadays I will add queuing theory and proofs about what you can't guarantee in a distributed system. None of those were taught in my course, but (as you imply) because I had the maths background I picked them up relatively quickly when I needed them.

As for triple integrals, well such things can be extremely practical. In a different engineering field one of my father's last papers was using such maths to predict how fast water would drain out of a PWR where the reactor bottom had been breached. Keq question: could the control rods be inserted before meltdown? He did live to see Fukushima, although he had retired 20 years earlier.

Closer to electronics, control theory is full of calculus in one form or another.

So yes, calculus can be extremely important to practicing engineers.

[nctnico]

And let's not forget digital filters and control loops.

[lem_ix]

Engineers tend to solve their problems by simplifying the math surrounding them. Take your Maxwell's equations and try to turn on a led diode, it will be a problem. If instead you apply circuit theory models all those difficult equations go away. Problems starts when you don't know when/how to apply your approximations. You should know what kind of "math" approximation you can apply to the issue at hand. In some cases as previously mentioned you can't make any sort of approximation because everything matters.

[EEVblog]

So yes, calculus can be extremely important to practicing engineers.

Yep, and many others can spend their entire career without using calculus once.
As other have mentioned, it's very likely that the majority of practicing electronics design engineers (average across all disciplines) will rarely need to use advanced math in their jobs.
Some disciplines will use it daily, some will never use it, it's a broad spectrum, but probably not an even bell curve, it's slanted towards the not use end.

IME, probably the majority of graduates just "got by" on their advanced math and don't really understand it and can't really use it intuitively at the drop of a hat.
It's more about knowing how and when to use advanced than the mechanics of being able to actually solve the equations.
Of course the math nerds will say every opportunity is a potential use for advanced math  (and many textbooks are written with that slant, as Horrowitz & Hill like to argue)

[Aodhan145]

Yep, and many others can spend their entire career without using calculus once.

Even basic calculus? I just a hobbyist, I'm only 16 and I have had to use calculus multiple times for just basic hobby electronics. I mainly use it for optimization trying to get the minimum power dissipation from a component depending on other variables.

Even yesterday I wanted to calculate the power consumption of an ESP8266 over 15mins in a specific use case including all the transients. I had to use basic Riemann sums to work out the Charge then energy then average power consumption. I use it all the time.

 I'm surprised people can do real electronics work without it, never mind getting into the actually complicated stuff.

[Kalvin]

Engineering is more than math. Engineering is like problem solving which requires persistence, positive attitude to problem solving, ability to learn new techniques and ability to apply the theory to the real-world problems. A good engineer is a good problem solver with positive attitude who tries to find good/optimal/practical solution for the problems, which requires persistence, theoretical understanding of the basics, ability to learn new techniques, and ability to apply that knowledge to real-world problems. Math is problem solving, which requires persistence and positive attitude for problem solving, and ability to apply the learnt techniques to given problems.

Engineering, like so many other things in the life is a combination of ability and attitude. With a good attitude you can accomplish a lot. With a bad attitude, you will accomplish very little. You do not have to be an expert on everything, but you need to have a will to learn new things, to be able to communicate with the clients and fellow engineers, to be able to grasp the concepts from the experts which typically requires at least some theoretical knowledge, and to be able apply the concepts successfully to your work. It is all about attitude. Like problem solving and math.

[coppice]

I think that the maths bad focused because the teachers tend to teach it as when hadn't computer. So i believe that resolve  math mechanically haven't sense today.
The most logic would be teach the application of the maths at the labour or real world .

Maxlor . all the world have forgotten the stuff that have learnt at past, who say otherwise LIE.

There is a good argument to be made that colleges don't give enough time for numerical techniques, rather than analytical techniques. However, if you think the analyical knowledge can in any way be deprecated you are condeming yourself to failure if you intend to do anything mathematical. It is becoming a problem that so many graduates can't do much beyond string matlab functions together. It comes as quite a shock to many a fresh master's grad who declares in a meeting that something can't be done with the compute resources available, and someone who actually grasps the maths shows how the whole thing can be reduced to some simple computations.

[Mastrofski]

Having only internship experience under my belt, I can't speak with any authority on the career side of things, but I can speak to the education side(I just graduated yesterday, after all). Understanding the math is super important for the EE degree. You mentioned an EET degree(which I also have), and I'd say it's not as critical there. For my EET program, basic calculus was all I really needed, and that was all for setting up RLC circuits and analyzing those. For the actual EE program though, that got pretty hairy pretty quickly, especially in the signals and communications courses, where there's a lot of deriving and Fourier transforms going on. For that, you really need to understand all the underlying math.

I will say that I've been working my internship for about a year(part time), and I've never done any real math there. Occasionally I'll do Monte Carlo analysis to check out different parameters of my circuit (speaking to Dave's point on probability), but other than that it's mostly been basic ohm's law equations. In fact my department head told me he's only used calculus once in his career, and that was for a certification exam in our industry, and after that he's relied all on app notes and datasheets.

[Cerebus]

Yep, and many others can spend their entire career without using calculus once.

Even basic calculus? I just a hobbyist, I'm only 16 and I have had to use calculus multiple times for just basic hobby electronics. I mainly use it for optimization trying to get the minimum power dissipation from a component depending on other variables.

Even yesterday I wanted to calculate the power consumption of an ESP8266 over 15mins in a specific use case including all the transients. I had to use basic Riemann sums to work out the Charge then energy then average power consumption. I use it all the time.

 I'm surprised people can do real electronics work without it, never mind getting into the actually complicated stuff.

I suspect that quite a lot of people get by despite a lack of basic mathematical 'clue'. If you're comfortable with calculus some problems just beg for it to be used to reach a quick, simple solution. If you're not, you go around the houses to get to the same end via  collections of graphical methods, iterative suck-it-and-see methods (substituting values in SPICE until you get the right answer) and other ad-hoc approaches. They might, at the end of the day, work but they're not the quickest way to get to your destination.

Most engineering types try, where they can, to avoid the mathematics side of things. Just as most social scientists, life scientists and medics hate the statistics courses they are forced to take.  To see where this leads, look at the quality of statistical decision making in politics and the vacillating between which of fat or carbohydrates in your diet are supposedly going to kill you, or the drugs which are eventually shown to harm not heal people.

I would say, learn as much mathematics as you can. The more tools you have in your tool box, the more jobs you can tackle. But don't use your tools to explain things^*. I hate nothing more than an engineering textbook that is chock full of maths where prose should have been used. The worst thing about these is that they're written by engineers not mathematicians. Mathematicians learn to use maths as a first class language and it shows - the symbology in a well written mathematical text can be read out loud: "Given a function f of i, such that i is an integer and f has a one-to-one mapping to the integers then...". For the most part engineers don't, sadly, write their mathematics like that.

^*You don't explain how a bolt holds two sheets of steel together by talking about the spanner. I have a book on transformer design that gets into flinging partial differentials around before it has even explained what a turns ratio is.

[ROBOT]

Yep, and many others can spend their entire career without using calculus once.

Even basic calculus? I just a hobbyist, I'm only 16 and I have had to use calculus multiple times for just basic hobby electronics. I mainly use it for optimization trying to get the minimum power dissipation from a component depending on other variables.

Even yesterday I wanted to calculate the power consumption of an ESP8266 over 15mins in a specific use case including all the transients. I had to use basic Riemann sums to work out the Charge then energy then average power consumption. I use it all the time.

 I'm surprised people can do real electronics work without it, never mind getting into the actually complicated stuff.

The problem is in any corporation spending 15 minutes on something like this likely be frowned upon by upper management. Especially with deadlines.

It's all about cost optimization. If you can get the design done without doing this the company makes more money!

Being able to approximate and over design is sometimes more cost effective. Especially on low volume stuff. What's the hourly overhead rate for a electrical engineer? $120+ an hour? If you spend 2 hours doing math you could spend an extra 5 cents on a component.  If your only making ~6000 boards.

[Cerebus]

Yep, and many others can spend their entire career without using calculus once.

Even basic calculus? I just a hobbyist, I'm only 16 and I have had to use calculus multiple times for just basic hobby electronics. I mainly use it for optimization trying to get the minimum power dissipation from a component depending on other variables.

Even yesterday I wanted to calculate the power consumption of an ESP8266 over 15mins in a specific use case including all the transients. I had to use basic Riemann sums to work out the Charge then energy then average power consumption. I use it all the time.

 I'm surprised people can do real electronics work without it, never mind getting into the actually complicated stuff.

The problem is in any corporation spending 15 minutes on something like this likely be frowned upon by upper management. Especially with deadlines.

It's all about cost optimization. If you can get the design done without doing this the company makes more money!

Being able to approximate and over design is sometimes more cost effective. Especially on low volume stuff. What's the hourly overhead rate for a electrical engineer? $120+ an hour? If you spend 2 hours doing math you could spend an extra 5 cents on a component.  If your only making ~6000 boards.

Well, in your hypothetical case, the mathematical solution costs $240, the extra $0.05 per component costs $300. So, if arithmetic yields a better answer in 30 seconds, imagine how good an answer some proper applied mathematics might yield.

[wraper]

In fact my department head told me he's only used calculus once in his career, and that was for a certification exam in our industry, and after that he's relied all on app notes and datasheets.

And here is the thing, app notes and datasheets don't appear by themselves. So behind them are people who really understand what they are doing and can create something original rather than simply copying typical circuit from the datasheet. If you want to be on the other side of the datasheet, then, well, you need to do math.

[coppice]

Yep, and many others can spend their entire career without using calculus once.

Even basic calculus? I just a hobbyist, I'm only 16 and I have had to use calculus multiple times for just basic hobby electronics. I mainly use it for optimization trying to get the minimum power dissipation from a component depending on other variables.

Even yesterday I wanted to calculate the power consumption of an ESP8266 over 15mins in a specific use case including all the transients. I had to use basic Riemann sums to work out the Charge then energy then average power consumption. I use it all the time.

 I'm surprised people can do real electronics work without it, never mind getting into the actually complicated stuff.

With something as simple as Riemann sums, people are doing some basic calculus every day without even thinking of it as calculus. I just had to look up the term Riemann sum, as I don't think I've used that actual name in 40 years. I use calculus most days, though.

[coppice]

Yep, and many others can spend their entire career without using calculus once.

Even basic calculus? I just a hobbyist, I'm only 16 and I have had to use calculus multiple times for just basic hobby electronics. I mainly use it for optimization trying to get the minimum power dissipation from a component depending on other variables.

Even yesterday I wanted to calculate the power consumption of an ESP8266 over 15mins in a specific use case including all the transients. I had to use basic Riemann sums to work out the Charge then energy then average power consumption. I use it all the time.

 I'm surprised people can do real electronics work without it, never mind getting into the actually complicated stuff.

The problem is in any corporation spending 15 minutes on something like this likely be frowned upon by upper management. Especially with deadlines.

It's all about cost optimization. If you can get the design done without doing this the company makes more money!

Being able to approximate and over design is sometimes more cost effective. Especially on low volume stuff. What's the hourly overhead rate for a electrical engineer? $120+ an hour? If you spend 2 hours doing math you could spend an extra 5 cents on a component.  If your only making ~6000 boards.

Don't be silly. Who's going to buy your 6000 boards for a reasonable margin if you can't even tell potential customers their energy consumption. A lack of supporting information puts you in the bargain basement, where its desperately hard to break even, let alone see a profit.

[Cerebus]

With something as simple as Riemann sums, people are doing some basic calculus every day without even thinking of it as calculus. I just had to look up the term Riemann sum, as I don't think I've used that actual name in 40 years. I use calculus most days, though.

My first thought on seeing that name was "zeroes of the Riemann zeta function" and I wondered exactly how obstruse the maths this guy was using and what he was doing wasting his time on electronics when their was a Fields medal to collect.

[tggzzz]

In fact my department head told me he's only used calculus once in his career, and that was for a certification exam in our industry, and after that he's relied all on app notes and datasheets.

And here is the thing, app notes and datasheets don't appear by themselves. So behind them are people who really understand what they are doing and can create something original rather than simply copying typical circuit from the datasheet. If you want to be on the other side of the datasheet, then, well, you need to do math.

The key point there, to me, is "create something original". If you like analogies, it is like the difference between being an author writing a book and being an author writing publicity handouts. Both are, of course, necessary.

When I was young a short story ("Profession") by Isaac Asimov was sufficiently thought provoking that I still remember its basic point. It is now available on the web at http://www.abelard.org/asimov.php and that page's author notes "Isaac Asimov’s Profession is an allegorical description of the manner in which education currently functions in our primitive western societies. Although it may not have been Asimov's intention, I have included this story as a warning of the weakness of Western education."

It is worth a speed read, and is directly relevant to this discussion.

[LabSpokane]

Yep, and many others can spend their entire career without using calculus once.

Even basic calculus? I just a hobbyist, I'm only 16 and I have had to use calculus multiple times for just basic hobby electronics. I mainly use it for optimization trying to get the minimum power dissipation from a component depending on other variables.

Even yesterday I wanted to calculate the power consumption of an ESP8266 over 15mins in a specific use case including all the transients. I had to use basic Riemann sums to work out the Charge then energy then average power consumption. I use it all the time.

 I'm surprised people can do real electronics work without it, never mind getting into the actually complicated stuff.

The problem is in any corporation spending 15 minutes on something like this likely be frowned upon by upper management. Especially with deadlines.

It's all about cost optimization. If you can get the design done without doing this the company makes more money!

Being able to approximate and over design is sometimes more cost effective. Especially on low volume stuff. What's the hourly overhead rate for a electrical engineer? $120+ an hour? If you spend 2 hours doing math you could spend an extra 5 cents on a component.  If your only making ~6000 boards.

Different environments have different standards and challenges.

In my line if work, the cheapest part of our deliverables is the engineering. The most expensive thing we do is to deliver an engineering result without doing the engineering thoroughly and properly. 

[Kalvin]

It doesn't hurt if you are clever and know when to apply the right tool for the problem:

Edison once hired a math graduate to assist him. One day, he gave the assistant a light bulb and asked him to calculate its volume. The assistant determined the equation of a curve approximating the cross section of the bulb, then used calculus and his slide rule to find the volume of revolution. After many hours of calculating and checking his work, he presented his results to Edison.

“You’re off by at least 30%,” said Edison. “I just calculated the volume myself by taking the top off and filling the bulb with water.”

Source: https://mathjokes4mathyfolks.wordpress.com/2011/02/11/edisons-birthday/

There are many variations to this story, but the principle is the same.

[sarepairman2]

Yep, and many others can spend their entire career without using calculus once.

Even basic calculus? I just a hobbyist, I'm only 16 and I have had to use calculus multiple times for just basic hobby electronics. I mainly use it for optimization trying to get the minimum power dissipation from a component depending on other variables.

Even yesterday I wanted to calculate the power consumption of an ESP8266 over 15mins in a specific use case including all the transients. I had to use basic Riemann sums to work out the Charge then energy then average power consumption. I use it all the time.

 I'm surprised people can do real electronics work without it, never mind getting into the actually complicated stuff.

The problem is in any corporation spending 15 minutes on something like this likely be frowned upon by upper management. Especially with deadlines.

It's all about cost optimization. If you can get the design done without doing this the company makes more money!

Being able to approximate and over design is sometimes more cost effective. Especially on low volume stuff. What's the hourly overhead rate for a electrical engineer? $120+ an hour? If you spend 2 hours doing math you could spend an extra 5 cents on a component.  If your only making ~6000 boards.

Don't be silly. Who's going to buy your 6000 boards for a reasonable margin if you can't even tell potential customers their energy consumption. A lack of supporting information puts you in the bargain basement, where its desperately hard to break even, let alone see a profit.

the energy consumption of our boards is lower then our competitors. should you have a specific concern about board power consumption we can can get your numbers, so long we are sure that we will have your business. .... forever 

[Cerebus]

There are many variations to this story, but the principle is the same.

Yeah, Edison's English was terrible. He said calculate when he should have said measure. 

[ROBOT]

Yep, and many others can spend their entire career without using calculus once.

Even basic calculus? I just a hobbyist, I'm only 16 and I have had to use calculus multiple times for just basic hobby electronics. I mainly use it for optimization trying to get the minimum power dissipation from a component depending on other variables.

Even yesterday I wanted to calculate the power consumption of an ESP8266 over 15mins in a specific use case including all the transients. I had to use basic Riemann sums to work out the Charge then energy then average power consumption. I use it all the time.

 I'm surprised people can do real electronics work without it, never mind getting into the actually complicated stuff.

The problem is in any corporation spending 15 minutes on something like this likely be frowned upon by upper management. Especially with deadlines.

It's all about cost optimization. If you can get the design done without doing this the company makes more money!

Being able to approximate and over design is sometimes more cost effective. Especially on low volume stuff. What's the hourly overhead rate for a electrical engineer? $120+ an hour? If you spend 2 hours doing math you could spend an extra 5 cents on a component.  If your only making ~6000 boards.

Don't be silly. Who's going to buy your 6000 boards for a reasonable margin if you can't even tell potential customers their energy consumption. A lack of supporting information puts you in the bargain basement, where its desperately hard to break even, let alone see a profit.

You can measure that after the fact... For probably cheaper than calculating. Remember calculations can be wrong!

[tggzzz]

And let's not forget digital filters and control loops.

Just so. And most of RF and comms engineering. And when you get to antenna engineering and signal integrity engineering, you are back to using your "feel" for the maths to guide you in your use of the numerical tools.

Unless, of course, you believe that "evolution algorithms" are sufficient.

[tggzzz]

You can measure that after the fact... For probably cheaper than calculating. Remember calculations can be wrong!

Measurements can be wrong too.

As for "cheaper", that depends on the cost & time of producing the first board, and on how evolutionary/revolutionary the technology is.

[tggzzz]

Now how important is all this advanced graphing, matrices, factoring, simplifying, and systems of equations going to be on the job? I have never seen any of the EE's at my current job do any complex math. Just basic stuff calculated of datsheets.

Yep, that's the majority of electronics design jobs in my experience.

Quite probably, but for me the interesting jobs all required maths in one way or another - and I'd rather spend my life doing things that interest me.

IMNSHO the OP needs to be made aware that certain "classes" of job are based on certain "classes" of knowledge. It is up to the OP to decide which is best for him, but it is up to us to make him aware there will be long-term consequences of his decisions.

[wraper]

You can measure that after the fact... For probably cheaper than calculating. Remember calculations can be wrong!

The issue doing without calculating first, it may be 1000 iterations until you get something that kinda "works". Measuring after the fact is not faster or cheaper once you get into complex things. Also many things are very hard to almost impossible to measure, and even harder to understand in which way you need to tweak the design to achieve a desirable result. Good luck making something like antenna in modern mobile phones without very advanced math.
Or you designed a phone which works very well, but one little issue, current consumption is so high that battery lasts for half a day. Do you start designing from the scratch because there is no chance to do it with current chipset?