Author Topic: How to deal with manipulative coworker  (Read 12477 times)

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Offline fourfathom

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2022, 06:27:05 pm »
Is a better job so hard to find?  From here it sounds like an unpleasant, dead-end environment.
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Offline rstofer

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2022, 06:28:38 pm »
By giving you formal notification, the company is building a case to fire you for cause which they are documenting with the letter.  I don't know how many letters it takes to fire someone for cause but you're on the way.  Don't be surprised if you get other letters in the near future.

Make no mistake, your time at the company is short.  You will be leaving, you might as well make the next move.

If you are the only party to receive a 'do better' letter, the company is already taking sides and you lost.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2022, 06:46:05 pm »
Your resignation letter should read like the following with no additions:

Quote
Please accept my resignation effective <insert date here>

Sign and date but do NOT offer up reasons or excuses.  If possible, decline any meetings with Employee Relations other than those required to transfer any retirement amounts.  Sign acknowledgements of NDAs still in effect, don't agree to Non-Competes (they're not allowed in California, I don't know about elsewhere)
Non competes for employees are very tricky to put in place & enforce in the NL. You really need help from a lawyer to figure out if you are actually bound to any non-compete you may have signed. If there isn't a specific monetary amount specified, then even a valid non-compete agreement is worth next to nothing anyway. Your former employer would need to go to court and prove that they are suffering damages before any claim can be made.

@tszaboo: I agree with the assesment of others that it is time to look for a new job in a different company. The relationship with your current employer just isn't working and there is no shame or error in that. Maybe even consider moving to a different part of the country. The culture varies a lot within the Netherlands depending on the area you are in. I have also worked at companies where I didn't fit in with the 'locals' 100%.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 06:51:21 pm by nctnico »
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Offline tszabooTopic starter

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2022, 10:09:07 pm »
Is a better job so hard to find?  From here it sounds like an unpleasant, dead-end environment.
Oh, I started looking. But I also like to keep my options open. That's why I'm not burning bridges. I also notified upper management, that I'm not satisfied with their resolution of the problem. No threats or anything that's pointless.
And yes, being a foreigner, it makes finding a job harder. It's not to criticize the locals, it's just a fact.

By giving you formal notification, the company is building a case to fire you for cause which they are documenting with the letter.  I don't know how many letters it takes to fire someone for cause but you're on the way.  Don't be surprised if you get other letters in the near future.

Make no mistake, your time at the company is short.  You will be leaving, you might as well make the next move.

If you are the only party to receive a 'do better' letter, the company is already taking sides and you lost.

I'm aware, they were very clear about that.
It's only a scaremongering tactics, as I said the opportunity cost would be too much for the company to let me go.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2022, 10:17:47 pm »
Is a better job so hard to find?  From here it sounds like an unpleasant, dead-end environment.
Oh, I started looking. But I also like to keep my options open. That's why I'm not burning bridges. I also notified upper management, that I'm not satisfied with their resolution of the problem. No threats or anything that's pointless.
That is a good idea. If you happen to find another job, just say you got a very good offer somewhere else and thus resign. Keep things positive. Maybe someday your current employer may come to their senses and asks you back.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2022, 10:24:26 pm »
It's only a scaremongering tactics, as I said the opportunity cost would be too much for the company to let me go.

I've seen cases where people were confident that they wouldn't be fired because they believed that a complete fucking disaster would ensue if they were.  And, they were fired and while a complete fucking disaster did ensue (in one case, major disaster with fireballs and wreckage and people killed due to the incompetence of the replacement) they weren't asked back, the companies still exist and the managers that did the firing are still there, or were for as long as I paid attention.   
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Offline olkipukki

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2022, 10:49:07 pm »
How to deal with manipulative coworker

In general, you don't, especially if a management on same side with a coworker, with some exceptions:
- you're patiently waiting a huge bonus
- you need to sell vested shares
- promotion is just about and you will move away from all these nonsense
- you can move/transfer to another department/team

Everything else might lead to self-destruction, alcoholism, mental breakdown, drugs etc.

As already mentioned, it's better find a new job while working rather than sitting on a bench and awaiting to be called.
Take a holiday, polish your CV, apply for open vacancies as much as you can  - I would say more productive compared to wasting time on internal battling in a company

I don't want to do that without plan B.

You already have Plan B - your current job, get to work on Plan A :)
 

Offline olkipukki

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2022, 10:58:07 pm »
I also notified upper management, that I'm not satisfied with their resolution of the problem.
I would call it 'the issue' not "the problem"
 

It's only a scaremongering tactics, as I said the opportunity cost would be too much for the company to let me go.
If you don't have financial interest in a company and share their profits/dividends, it should be less your worry.
You can use it as a leverage for short-period of time (such as "quiet qutting"), but one away or another they will solve it easy by hiring 2-3 persons if no satisfied candidate on a market at the given time.

 

Offline rstofer

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2022, 12:11:07 am »
Is a better job so hard to find?  From here it sounds like an unpleasant, dead-end environment.
Oh, I started looking. But I also like to keep my options open. That's why I'm not burning bridges. I also notified upper management, that I'm not satisfied with their resolution of the problem. No threats or anything that's pointless.
And yes, being a foreigner, it makes finding a job harder. It's not to criticize the locals, it's just a fact.

By giving you formal notification, the company is building a case to fire you for cause which they are documenting with the letter.  I don't know how many letters it takes to fire someone for cause but you're on the way.  Don't be surprised if you get other letters in the near future.

Make no mistake, your time at the company is short.  You will be leaving, you might as well make the next move.

If you are the only party to receive a 'do better' letter, the company is already taking sides and you lost.

I'm aware, they were very clear about that.
It's only a scaremongering tactics, as I said the opportunity cost would be too much for the company to let me go.

At some point, the company will reach the conclusion that the cost of non-action exceeds the benefit.  Hopefully you will have another job lined up.  No employee is irreplaceable, there is just a period of adjustment and that may be less painful than maintaining the status quo.
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2022, 05:55:25 am »
I will repeat what has already been said because it's so important:  No one is irreplaceable.  Always remember this.
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2022, 07:19:35 am »
Is a better job so hard to find?  From here it sounds like an unpleasant, dead-end environment.
Oh, I started looking. But I also like to keep my options open. That's why I'm not burning bridges. I also notified upper management, that I'm not satisfied with their resolution of the problem. No threats or anything that's pointless.
That is a good idea. If you happen to find another job, just say you got a very good offer somewhere else and thus resign. Keep things positive. Maybe someday your current employer may come to their senses and asks you back.

Or you may later encounter a current coworker in a different company. It is a surprisingly small world.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2022, 02:14:08 pm »
I will repeat what has already been said because it's so important:  No one is irreplaceable.  Always remember this.

I'll disagree a bit because I've seen this sort of drama unfold more than once.  Well-run companies will actively avoid situations where they become too dependent on key employees for ordinary functions.  An employee cannot make themselves 'irreplaceable' by being the only one that knows the keycode for the forklift or something silly like that.  But in some small and medium sized companies, an employee can easily become important enough that they cannot be fired without significantly affecting the operation of the company.  A small business owner--say Joe's Pet Food and Dogwash--may employ one very good dogwasher that is known and loved by customers and dogs alike.  The result of that employee leaving may be that the business becomes just Joe's Pet Food, or even goes out of business entirely.  Being irreplaceable doesn't mean that you can't be fired, but rather that in some cases there are consequences that cannot be mitigated.  Small businesses are often run by stubborn, angry people that might otherwise be unemployable. 

Being irreplaceable won't keep you from being fired.  Oddly, being a 'top performer', especially in areas like sales, often makes that person almost immune from firing even though they often achieve that top performance at the expense of other employees and the company itself.
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Offline james_s

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2022, 05:05:24 pm »
I've seen cases where people were confident that they wouldn't be fired because they believed that a complete fucking disaster would ensue if they were.  And, they were fired and while a complete fucking disaster did ensue (in one case, major disaster with fireballs and wreckage and people killed due to the incompetence of the replacement) they weren't asked back, the companies still exist and the managers that did the firing are still there, or were for as long as I paid attention.   

I have also seen people fired, some for rather dubious reasons, that resulted in something that could be similarly described as "a complete fucking disaster", no fireballs or deaths but in at least one case a rather successful business tanked, one of their two locations closing permanently due to the total incompetence of the person brought in to replace the person that got fired. Incidentally they were fired for reporting something to HR on behalf of another employee who was being treated very poorly by the former owner. He sold the business he'd built to a corporate entity and was not adjusting well to being an employee who had to follow rules.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2022, 05:24:50 pm »
I will repeat what has already been said because it's so important:  No one is irreplaceable.  Always remember this.

Hard disagree.   Let's call this person 'Phil', not their real name, but I know them tangentially.  They left their company for a better offer.  It was a small firm - five engineers or so, another ten or so in various admin/production/etc roles.  They knew exactly how system X worked (a complex arrangement of hardware, embedded software, Linux and FPGAs in a three-SoC system), and hadn't properly documented it.  The project was abandoned - four years of work lost as a result - easily several hundred thousand pounds of economic impact to the company.  The result was the company had to hire contractors to implement the project in a different manner.   Like it or not, many engineers suck at documentation.  Some of that is out of fear that documentation will make it easier to replace them, but I think it's more because writing documentation well is *boring* and feels unproductive. 

Does the lack of replaceability guarantee immunity towards being fired?  Hell no, sometimes corporate leaders have no idea how significant certain members of a team can be.  Can it end up being a really bad move to sack someone who is integral to a project's completion?  Absolutely, and that can make them irreplaceable, and bosses that are aware of that will often let these employees get away with bloody murder, within the limits of HR.
 

Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2022, 05:32:28 pm »
Like it or not, many engineers suck at documentation.  Some of that is out of fear that documentation will make it easier to replace them, but I think it's more because writing documentation well is *boring* and feels unproductive. 

Making proper documentation is also a skill. And yes it is boring and not part of the things an engineer likes to do.

I don't know how it is nowadays, but managers used to think that it was just like opening a can and hopla 10 engineers pop out to replace the one that got fired.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 05:34:20 pm by pcprogrammer »
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2022, 05:38:42 pm »
I will repeat what has already been said because it's so important:  No one is irreplaceable.  Always remember this.

Hard disagree.
[...]
Does the lack of replaceability guarantee immunity towards being fired?  Hell no, sometimes corporate leaders have no idea how significant certain members of a team can be.

I was trying to say that anyone can be fired, regardless of their value to the company.  The firing may result in catastrophe, but managers may have other priorities, may not recognize the critical nature of the employee, or regardless of the likely consequences may have no other option.  So you can always be replaced.  Bad things may happen to the company, but that's no guarantee of anything.  Chaos reigns, people behave in unpredictable manner.  Not always, and not without consequences, but always be prepared for that quiet tap on the shoulder.
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2022, 11:45:50 pm »
Even people absolutely vital and critical for the business can be fired, because businesses are managed and run by imperfect humans.

One of the biggest tragedies of human enterprise is how laughably bad we are, statistically speaking, at management and leadership.  I know, I've done it myself; but also seen how it is done right.

Just because you know the business will crash if you are fired, does not mean you are immune from office politics, sociopath gaming, becoming a scapegoat for a higher up who just wants to retain their bonus as they will be leaving early next year anyway, and simply because someone does not like you.

Laws will not protect you, because if they really want to get rid of you no matter how important/useful/profitable worker you are, they will manufacture the paperwork to shield themselves.  You may think such paperwork is easily dismissed, but you forget: it is those exact same tactics that got them there in the first place.  They've got experience in such games.

The sooner you find a different job, the better.  Do not be like me, and burn yourself out and fall into depression, because you think you can "win them over" or "show them".  You can't, because they are only interested in their own short-term personal gains: the hell with the company, business, and everyone else.
In the end, very few humans are actually rational and logical; most do run on pure short-term planning and instict and emotions.
 
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Offline EEVblog_Fan

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2022, 04:08:01 am »
  If you have a manipulative co worker now in your current job, and you want to get rid of it in your happy life....... there are no guaratees that your next job, if you decided to 'back out' will be all peaceful and serene, so my advice for you is ask yourself, can you continue working with this devil? If not, then get the hell out there and find a new job!
 

Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2022, 05:10:16 am »
By the looks of it it is not a question of if tszaboo is willing to continue to work for the devil. It looks more like the devil does not want to work with him because the devil is either threatened by tszaboo his skills or just does not like tszaboo for what ever reason.

And when management is in the corner of the devil there is no other way then out of the door.

Edit: fixed some typos.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 06:49:18 am by pcprogrammer »
 

Offline dastructhm

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2022, 05:57:16 am »
"How to ...     ." is giving an instruction.
"How do you ...     ?" is asking a question.
  ;)
dastructhm = data structures and algorithms
 
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Offline dastructhm

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2022, 06:02:49 am »
The only way to solve issue like this: Be the guy who can work with anyone.

It sounds easy or very difficult, but it's true. Friends come and go, but the enemies accumulate..

I recommend watching this video series:

https://youtu.be/SmeyzDEEieY?list=PLGs0VKk2DiYxoFT6TYPJgBu81B1pVtOmz
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 06:08:26 am by dastructhm »
dastructhm = data structures and algorithms
 
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Offline tszabooTopic starter

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2022, 08:57:17 am »
The only way to solve issue like this: Be the guy who can work with anyone.

It sounds easy or very difficult, but it's true. Friends come and go, but the enemies accumulate..
It sounds very difficult, when it's about things that I care about. That's probably the issue. I started caring, and trying to make the best of things.
Well, that's sorted now.

Does the lack of replaceability guarantee immunity towards being fired?  Hell no, sometimes corporate leaders have no idea how significant certain members of a team can be.  Can it end up being a really bad move to sack someone who is integral to a project's completion?  Absolutely, and that can make them irreplaceable, and bosses that are aware of that will often let these employees get away with bloody murder, within the limits of HR.
Yes, I've seen my boss do this with someone else. He could get away with not commiting his work to the version control, and bully others out of their job. It happened at a different branch, didn't have to work with him. But I had to tell my boss, if they ever put me on a team with him, I quit on the spot.

Like it or not, many engineers suck at documentation.  Some of that is out of fear that documentation will make it easier to replace them, but I think it's more because writing documentation well is *boring* and feels unproductive. 
That's actually the trick I have. We have to do a lot of documentation, and a niche electronics design practices for ATEX. I've been delivering constantly projects, without too much headache to management, and they see that. Because previously the documentation part of the project took several months to deliver, and they had to hire external consultants full time to do that.
Plus, I've seen them fire people without the due process, banking on the fact that they are foreigners, and don't know that there needs to be a court order for such a dismissal. They are not doing that with me, just trying to keep the status quo.

This is just me trying to rationalize the events. I'm not bulletproof. I have the screw you money Dave keeps talking about. It really is a good way to secure your life against situations like this. But I would say it actually has a drawbacks: Having the money makes you too confident.
It's a good insurance against abuse from your managers. It's not good when you have coworkers trying to abuse you, because they are just going to escalate the situation, and make your life annoying, without actually being an actual threat to you.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2022, 09:49:32 am »
I started caring, and trying to make the best of things.
That's very close to what broke me.  I am the type who can work with anyone.  Even if I vehemently disagree with you, and we seriously argue about something, I'll be happy to try and help you in other things.  I just am like that, a toolmaker, enabler; thing-oriented.  I have always cared too much about the work itself, and did not learn to just walk away until it was too late.

How to walk away from a bad job or bad job environment –– or hell, a bad environment! –– is something everyone should learn how to do.
 
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Offline Fraser

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2022, 11:06:59 am »
Nominal Animal…you and I have much in common !

Fraser
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Offline Psi

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Re: How to deal with manipulative coworker
« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2022, 11:29:42 am »
Hm..

Probably how I would handle this is a paper letter mailed to the CEO (or any high-up person that you know will listen).

In the letter you would outline the issue and what dishonest things this person has been doing.

The letter would end in your official resignation with a statement that you enjoy working there and would be very happy to come back but it's either him or you.
Tell them you will give them 1-2 month before you move on.

Then you take some time to do things around the house that you've been putting off, you look for new jobs etc..
But mostly you are waiting for bad stuff to happen at the company, due to you not being there, which proves to them you're more valuable than he is.  By quitting you regain control of the situation.

Either they will call, and you get your job back, or they don't and you move on.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 11:38:22 am by Psi »
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