How to deal with manipulative coworker

[pcprogrammer]

Nominal Animal…you and I have much in common !

Fraser

As do I and probably others on the forum too. Caring for the work and trying to do it perfect will bring you down in the end. Been there twice. The first time full on breakdown, the second time almost and I walked away from it. After that I tried to keep ahead of it, but it was not easy. It is housed in my DNA

[snarkysparky]

Always have visibility to your bosses boss.   And your bosses bosses boss.   If they know you and like your work you can gain much leverage on your immediate manager.

Been there ,  done that ..

[hans]

@tszaboo: so sorry to read about this. I remember your post from a few years back where you moved in hopes of a more suitable job. I sincerely hope you can find a work environment with the right people!

Hm..

Probably how I would handle this is a paper letter mailed to the CEO (or any high-up person that you know will listen).

In the letter you would outline the issue and what dishonest things this person has been doing.

The letter would end in your official resignation with a statement that you enjoy working there and would be very happy to come back but it's either him or you.
Tell them you will give them 1-2 month before you move on.

Then you take some time to do things around the house that you've been putting off, you look for new jobs etc..
But mostly you are waiting for bad stuff to happen at the company, due to you not being there, which proves to them you're more valuable than he is.  By quitting you regain control of the situation.

Either they will call, and you get your job back, or they don't and you move on.

Unless you're 100% certain you can fight for your own justice, this is far too confrontational IMO.
Yes it may feel good to "teach them a lesson", but it isn't going to convince anyone but add more fuel to the fire.

Besides, maybe that CEO jumps ships in a few years too, and you meet him/her at an awesome tech startup. What's the point of potentially burning that bridge with such a letter? I would just hand in a resignation with something along the lines of "my views don't align with the views of the company on how this project/team should be run" and perhaps if you feel like it: "feel that my side of the story is not heard and treatment has been biased". Just say you've found a new job.

Inform them to quit as soon as legal terms of the contract allow, say end of next month. Take all the holiday leave that is still left. Hopefully only work for 5 more days where you basically only commit your local git changes to repository with comments like "TODO:", and write e-mails informing your colleagues (in appropriate time) about your decision.
You may want to inform with your legal insurance on how to do this most efficiently. A company can deny some parts of holiday allowance, but not all since employees in NL are 'always' allowed to take IIRC 2 weeks of holidays in a row. Alternatively they can also become sick days, because don't let the stress of "I must finish everything in time" get grips of you. There are other things in life that matter more like your health. But I cannot give legal advice about this.

I've been in a toxic workplace before, and the biggest regret I had was to continue to work as hard to 'make the best of it', and finish the project that I had ownership of. Let's face it: the work environment sucks, so you're unlikely to change the colleagues and management decisions. Second, that project may be something to be proud of and carry some emotional attachment/investment down the line, but whether you shut the door in 5 days or 5 months from now: you won't be involved in the future of that project down the line.
Sure for a future work reference it may be nice to leave under the best terms, like working on documenting and handing over the project to colleagues. The last week I only worked on documentation of said project. But despite me working for another 2 months on the project, I still had to inform my manager that it was not ready for release yet. Because you know.. engineers and their time estimations.. Nonetheless I regret the most I  still trying to live up for the responsibility of this job even after I had handed in my resignation, because like I said.. after you shut the door it's not your problem anymore.

The workplace I worked in had a bully-style manager from another department that asked me to do many things ad-hoc. Many things where he could have given a shorter notice, or where I thought if he know his stuff (he was a highschool dropout, but his dad was up the ass of the big boss..) he would be less dependent. Meanwhile he was gaslighting and downright hurtful behind my back to other colleagues I didn't want to create a scene with this guy, but this also made me feel unheard, unappreciated and annoyed since my actual tasks were frequently disturbed. HR said they saw this guy's "limitations" but in the end this was also my problem. Well, luckily I had some screw-you money..

2 years down the line, I got a IM whether I was interested in working for them again. All the hints they gave about why were signs to me of what a 'braindrain' does to the company. In a span 3 years most of the development engineers had left (e.g. that braindrain already started when I was still around).

I thanked them sincerely,.

[rstofer]

Hm..

Probably how I would handle this is a paper letter mailed to the CEO (or any high-up person that you know will listen).

In the letter you would outline the issue and what dishonest things this person has been doing.

The letter would end in your official resignation with a statement that you enjoy working there and would be very happy to come back but it's either him or you.
Tell them you will give them 1-2 month before you move on.

Then you take some time to do things around the house that you've been putting off, you look for new jobs etc..
But mostly you are waiting for bad stuff to happen at the company, due to you not being there, which proves to them you're more valuable than he is.  By quitting you regain control of the situation.

Either they will call, and you get your job back, or they don't and you move on.

I still think the best way to handle it is to find another job and say NOTHING on the way out.  Believe me, management doesn't want to hear 'reasons' or 'excuses', they just want the problem (likely you) to go away so they can get back to doing something else.  In the end, it is a learning experience and next time things may not go so far off the rails.

Getting the 'do better' letter is you first and probably last warning.  Get out before you get fired.  Getting fired looks bad on a job application or resume.  Changing jobs after a while is far less of a concern.

ETA:

Never bad-mouth the company, before, during or after leaving.  If anybody asks, "It was a great place to work but I wanted a change."  That's all you should say - EVER!

[PlainName]

Getting fired looks bad on a job application or resume.

Yep, this is a biggy. Even if you have a cast iron excuse, no-one will read that and just see 'fired'.

[rstofer]

Getting fired looks bad on a job application or resume.

Yep, this is a biggy. Even if you have a cast iron excuse, no-one will read that and just see 'fired'.

In a small community of engineers, it may make you unemployable.  Word gets around!

[tggzzz]

It is a truism that it is very difficult to change the "culture" of a company - either for better or for worse.

If the company tolerates or even encourages bullying and the like, then it won't change until all the people in the company have changed. Why all? Because if 90% leave the remaining 10% will be under ridiculous pressure, and they will propagate bad behaviour to anybody that joins.

It works the other way as well, as "illustrated" in the attached SatireWire article ("Loyal Employees a Valuable Asset, So Now is a Good Time to Sell Them") which rapidly went around HP in the Princess Carly era (2001).

[rstofer]

Paul Simon's contribution in a slightly different context

https://youtu.be/ABXtWqmArUU

[nctnico]

Hm..

Probably how I would handle this is a paper letter mailed to the CEO (or any high-up person that you know will listen).

In the letter you would outline the issue and what dishonest things this person has been doing.

The letter would end in your official resignation with a statement that you enjoy working there and would be very happy to come back but it's either him or you.
Tell them you will give them 1-2 month before you move on.

Then you take some time to do things around the house that you've been putting off, you look for new jobs etc..
But mostly you are waiting for bad stuff to happen at the company, due to you not being there, which proves to them you're more valuable than he is.  By quitting you regain control of the situation.

Either they will call, and you get your job back, or they don't and you move on.

That won't work. No employer will give an employee that kind of power. Just quit and say/write you got a better job offer elsewhere.

BTW: CEO or any other person at management level won't care about problems between employees; they expect the lower management to deal with that.

[fourfathom]

Yes.  Find a new job then politely walk away.  Sending a letter to the CEO or your boss won't accomplishing anything useful.  Not useful to you, or to the company,  Your letter is not going to get them to "see the light" -- they should have already seen it by now.  Given what has happened already you do not owe them a thing.  Do what you must do in order to keep some self-respect, but you are no longer responsible for finishing the current project.  As Paul Simon said, "get yourself free".

[nvmR]

OP, we're cheering for you, be strong! Find something new that interests you, and leave. You'll be shocked after a while that it took you so long to leave.
Make sure to leave as cleanly as possible and legally. I overdo it, and feel that 100% of work that occurred at the company is the companies IP, so I have no ownership of it.

I video that really helped me understand what was to come when leaving was this one:


Good Luck!

[nctnico]

As a side note: My saying is that companies as an entity have the moral compass of a 4 year old child.

[tggzzz]

As a side note: My saying is that companies as an entity have the moral compass of a 4 year old child.

Not always true.

When I worked for HP, and before Princess Fiorina, there was a very strong moral compass inside HP. It was known as "The HP Way".

The way the HP Way" was propagated was interesting. It was partly written down, but new people - and more importantly new sites - became familiar with via osmositic absorbtion of numerous "Bill and Dave" stories which illustrated simple practical applications of the morals[1].

Princess Carly explicitly declared The HP Way dead, replacing it with the incomprehensible and unusable "Rules of the Garage".

No idea what the current culture is; I left HP two decades ago.

[1] One examples story: in the 70s a new HP minicomputer was "disappointing" customers. When this got to Dave's attention, he wrote a memo to the project manager, Paul Ely, saying simply "please ensure that when we release products they conform to the advertised performance". That, in HP terms, was a stingin rebuke. Ely's response was to frame the memo, and hang it on his office wall. Ely went on to have a good career within HP.

[Nominal Animal]

Nominal Animal…you and I have much in common !

As do I and probably others on the forum too. Caring for the work and trying to do it perfect will bring you down in the end. Been there twice. The first time full on breakdown, the second time almost and I walked away from it. After that I tried to keep ahead of it, but it was not easy. It is housed in my DNA

That's exactly the reason I'm voicing it out: people like us, including tszaboo, technically oriented people motivated by the work itself, are particularly susceptible to this; and this can easily destroy us.  I'm just waving a flag, saying "here lies a dangerous pitfall, beware", and describing what happened to myself to show that the pitfall has sharp spikes in it, illustrating how serious a danger it is.

As a side note: My saying is that companies as an entity have the moral compass of a 4 year old child.

Not always true.

When I worked for HP, and before Princess Fiorina, there was a very strong moral compass inside HP. It was known as "The HP Way".

It depends on the owners and stockholders, actually.  The purpose of a company is to make profit, and if the leadership puts anything before profit, stockholders may take them into court.  However, if the owners/stockholders tell the company to behave in a specific way, then the situation is different.

Thing is, how many Owners are there that put things like company morals ahead of their own profit?  Not many.  Some, yes; but not many.

[fourfathom]

Making a profit is not evil -- that's how we put food on the table.  And there is no good reason that a company has to behave in an evil manner in order to make a profit.  But sometimes they do, by pursuing short-term gain while ignoring long-term damage, or by allowing personal biases to destroy the work environment.  It's tough to run a company, and sometimes unpleasant decisions have to be made.  And you have to make choices based on uncertain factors, steering into a future that is unknowable.  And sometimes people are just stupid.

I guess I am saying that guessing at motivations is sort of useless.  Look at the facts of your situation and act on those facts.  How or why are not important.  You can control what you do, how you react.  Take charge of your life.  Don't be a victim.

[Ed.Kloonk]

You can control what you do, how you react.  Take charge of your life.  Don't be a victim.

 

Thank you. 

[tggzzz]

Nominal Animal…you and I have much in common !

As do I and probably others on the forum too. Caring for the work and trying to do it perfect will bring you down in the end. Been there twice. The first time full on breakdown, the second time almost and I walked away from it. After that I tried to keep ahead of it, but it was not easy. It is housed in my DNA

That's exactly the reason I'm voicing it out: people like us, including tszaboo, technically oriented people motivated by the work itself, are particularly susceptible to this; and this can easily destroy us.  I'm just waving a flag, saying "here lies a dangerous pitfall, beware", and describing what happened to myself to show that the pitfall has sharp spikes in it, illustrating how serious a danger it is.

As a side note: My saying is that companies as an entity have the moral compass of a 4 year old child.

Not always true.

When I worked for HP, and before Princess Fiorina, there was a very strong moral compass inside HP. It was known as "The HP Way".

It depends on the owners and stockholders, actually.  The purpose of a company is to make profit, and if the leadership puts anything before profit, stockholders may take them into court.  However, if the owners/stockholders tell the company to behave in a specific way, then the situation is different.

Thing is, how many Owners are there that put things like company morals ahead of their own profit?  Not many.  Some, yes; but not many.

HP was indeed a notable exception. That's how they made it into the somewhat famous book "In Search of Excellence".

Not a bad book, but it was amusing that it is 400 pages long - many of which note that the successful companies quickly get to the nub of an issue and deal with it

Making a profit is not evil -- that's how we put food on the table.  And there is no good reason that a company has to behave in an evil manner in order to make a profit.  But sometimes they do, by pursuing short-term gain while ignoring long-term damage, or by allowing personal biases to destroy the work environment.  It's tough to run a company, and sometimes unpleasant decisions have to be made.  And you have to make choices based on uncertain factors, steering into a future that is unknowable.  And sometimes people are just stupid.

Yes indeed.

HP explicitly took the attitude that they made a profit by ensuring their customers could use their equipment to make a profit. Before I joined HP, I experienced HP helping in my company ways that cost them some time/money, even though they were under no obligation whatsoever.

On at least one occasion when they had to shut a facility, the internal magazine publicised the problems that was causing for some long-term (decades) employees. They also noted how the employees could have helped themselves to retain employability (basically not doing the same thing for decades).

[Nominal Animal]

Making a profit is not evil -- that's how we put food on the table.  And there is no good reason that a company has to behave in an evil manner in order to make a profit.  But sometimes they do, by pursuing short-term gain while ignoring long-term damage, or by allowing personal biases to destroy the work environment.  It's tough to run a company, and sometimes unpleasant decisions have to be made.  And you have to make choices based on uncertain factors, steering into a future that is unknowable.  And sometimes people are just stupid.

Oh, I do absolutely agree.

Even psychopaths can be wonderful to work with, when they are on your side.  It's really the shortsightedness and stupid immediate gratification seeking that is harmful, really.  Aside from that, I do think there is a niche for every kind of human personality.

I guess I am saying that guessing at motivations is sort of useless.  Look at the facts of your situation and act on those facts.  How or why are not important.  You can control what you do, how you react.  Take charge of your life.  Don't be a victim.

Right!

But my point was more on the lines of trying to change others is a fool's errand.  It is always honorable to leave, to go somewhere else where ones own contributions can have a more positive effect.  This is important to understand and internalize: by staying, you are not doing anyone any favours –– except possibly enabling the manipulators to continue manipulating.

[pcprogrammer]

Aside from that, I do think there is a niche for every kind of human personality.

Yes, but for some that is a deep and dark hole in the ground

Sorry, has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but could not resist.

[nctnico]

Making a profit is not evil -- that's how we put food on the table.  And there is no good reason that a company has to behave in an evil manner in order to make a profit.  But sometimes they do, by pursuing short-term gain while ignoring long-term damage, or by allowing personal biases to destroy the work environment.  It's tough to run a company, and sometimes unpleasant decisions have to be made.  And you have to make choices based on uncertain factors, steering into a future that is unknowable.  And sometimes people are just stupid.

It is more dangerous than that. People feel less vulnerable for accountability when part of a group. This 'documentary' shows this effect in action:

[Psi]

Hm..

Probably how I would handle this is a paper letter mailed to the CEO (or any high-up person that you know will listen).

In the letter you would outline the issue and what dishonest things this person has been doing.

The letter would end in your official resignation with a statement that you enjoy working there and would be very happy to come back but it's either him or you.
Tell them you will give them 1-2 month before you move on.

Then you take some time to do things around the house that you've been putting off, you look for new jobs etc..
But mostly you are waiting for bad stuff to happen at the company, due to you not being there, which proves to them you're more valuable than he is.  By quitting you regain control of the situation.

Either they will call, and you get your job back, or they don't and you move on.

That won't work. No employer will give an employee that kind of power. Just quit and say/write you got a better job offer elsewhere.

BTW: CEO or any other person at management level won't care about problems between employees; they expect the lower management to deal with that.

That wasn't really the point, the point was to make it known at a higher level why you are leaving. It's not an ultimatum or power play, it's just
"Hey, you have a big problem and i'm leaving because of it"

This way, when all this persons lies are discovered and important things don't get done and the company starts losing money due to mistakes,  someone at a high-level in the company goes "hang on, someone told me about this guy 6 months go"

Babylon 5 Wisdom
"When others do a foolish thing, you should tell them it is a foolish thing. They can still continue to do it, but at least the truth is where it needs to be"

In this case the foolish thing is the company continue to employee the guy causing this problem.


I do accept that it does depend on the size of the company. Obviously the CEO in a huge multinational company is not the right person to send a letter to, but for a much smaller company the CEO maybe the correct person.

[hans]

But this again plays into feeling responsible for doing someone else's job (the CEO), or the company.

Just let it go.

[nctnico]

Hm..

Probably how I would handle this is a paper letter mailed to the CEO (or any high-up person that you know will listen).

In the letter you would outline the issue and what dishonest things this person has been doing.

The letter would end in your official resignation with a statement that you enjoy working there and would be very happy to come back but it's either him or you.
Tell them you will give them 1-2 month before you move on.

Then you take some time to do things around the house that you've been putting off, you look for new jobs etc..
But mostly you are waiting for bad stuff to happen at the company, due to you not being there, which proves to them you're more valuable than he is.  By quitting you regain control of the situation.

Either they will call, and you get your job back, or they don't and you move on.

That won't work. No employer will give an employee that kind of power. Just quit and say/write you got a better job offer elsewhere.

BTW: CEO or any other person at management level won't care about problems between employees; they expect the lower management to deal with that.

That wasn't really the point, the point was to make it known at a higher level why you are leaving. It's not an ultimatum or power play, it's just
"Hey, you have a big problem and i'm leaving because of it"

Watch the entire video nvmR posted a few messages earlier. It is really good advice and a good view on how the world works. IF management is keen on keeping people on-board, they would do a better job or maybe they are not interested in keeping certain people in the first place. Sending a letter to a CEO is counterproductive and results in people having a negative vibe about you. The notion of keeping YOU on board as something that is important to the company should come from other people, not yourself. And even then management can decide to make the company less dependant on a single person.

[fourfathom]

And even then management can decide to make the company less dependant on a single person.

Any company should already be doing this.  No matter how valuable, critical, and irreplaceable I am as an employee, and no matter how well I am treated, I can always be hit by a truck.

[mrbrown]

I know it's hard to leave your comfort zone, but just go find a new job, that shouldn't be too difficult these days for anyone in your line of work.

After 5 years of doing the same job it's never a bad idea to find something new, meet some new people to learn from, learn some new skills, regain motivation.

Stick your energy in something positive, way more rewarding.