Kids And Happiness

[Analog Kid]

Just because you feel a certain way about something doesn't automatically mean that I should as well.

If you take every opinion someone has and imply that they think you must have that opinion as well, well, you're just gonna waste a lot of your life arguing with people forever.

100%

Also,
- If you dismiss everything someone says simply because you strongly disagree with a specific view they have,
- Or, you constantly argue against every point someone makes (regardless of if you agree with it or not) simply because you don't want to support someone who has a view you disagree with.

Then all you're doing is stalling any progress in the world, and often making things worse by rallying people to believe lies that were only invented to cancel people.  Everyone has good things to contribute no matter how much you might disagree with them in other specific areas, and everyone is wrong about something in a way they do not realize, everyone!

Well, since we're on this now (and I got us into this mess), let me clarify:

Yes, 100%, it's counterproductive and pretty silly to argue against every opinion you disagree with.
That's not my point at all.

I'm talking about people who make assertions (like the one I used in my example) that imply that you ought to adopt that position or else you're wrong. It's not quite the same thing as just disagreeing with or arguing with everybody, which I agree is ridiculous.

In my example, I posted that I would like to see a certain feature implemented on this forum.
The response was basically "I'd probably never use that" (paraphrasing).

OK: why the hell even post that reply if you're not implying that the feature isn't worth implementing because you don't think it's worthwhile?

It'd be one thing if this were, say, a committee meeting where people were discussing whether or not to implement that feature; that would be a perfectly appropriate comment to make in such a discussion.

But I've seen that elsewhere, lots of places, where the implied meaning is "I disagree with you and that puts you in the wrong; you ought to adopt my viewpoint, which is the correct one."

I think that's as far as I care to prolong this discussion.

[Psi]

To be clear, I wasn't aiming what I said at anyone specific, it was just a general statement I wanted to make after reading Dave's comment.

[EEVblog]

I'm talking about people who make assertions (like the one I used in my example) that imply that you ought to adopt that position or else you're wrong.

You're doing it again 

[Analog Kid]

I'm talking about people who make assertions (like the one I used in my example) that imply that you ought to adopt that position or else you're wrong.

You're doing it again 

Doing what again?
You act as if people don't actually do that.
They do.

[Halcyon]

Can we all just agree that kids are gross and move on? 

[EEVblog]

I'm talking about people who make assertions (like the one I used in my example) that imply that you ought to adopt that position or else you're wrong.

You're doing it again 

Doing what again?
You act as if people don't actually do that.
They do.

LOL, you don't have to imply that they are implying that.

[EEVblog]

Can we all just agree that kids are gross and move on? 

Girls are icky, they have girl germs!

[Cyclotron]

Can we all just agree that kids are gross and move on? 

I agree with that for sure. I threatened to put a decontamination tent outside my house for years. Every flipping virus and bacteria that the nose pickers got into around school came in my front door after school.

But they get past that and sometimes grow up into people I can debate with.

[Xena E]

Kids early (kid, actually), then you can grow up with them!
❤️
(And you never know when you may need a spare kidney)
🤔 ... 🤣

[Siwastaja]

Just because you feel a certain way about something doesn't automatically mean that I should as well.

Of course. While I don't fully agree with them, there is a tiny grain of truth still in what Dave and nctnico are saying - many who "do not want to have kids" actually change their minds, some unfortunately too late, some still in time, and it is way more common to change your mind that way (no kids -> yes kids) than the other way around, and this bias in direction is pretty interesting, I think it shows we humans have built-in "yes kids" attitude, which, if you think about it, makes total sense biologically. So in most cases, the biologically "obvious" is true.

So chances are actually pretty high that many "no kids to me" people are not actually that way "deep inside". Maybe they think that way because surrounding attitudes are affecting them? Maybe they have some personal reasons which they could work with instead of just accepting as something unchanging? That's why people like Dave and nctnico try to "convert" you. They are saying, "You will like it, even if you don't believe it now. Don't waste time because it is easier the earlier you do it."

I'm not trying to convert anyone, however. But I'm seeing their point. It makes logically a lot more sense than trying to convert you to like broccoli, or some certain deity they happen to believe in.

Then again I'm sure there are many who truly, genuinely, will never want kids and will be genuinely happier with that decision for their whole lives. But the group of those unhappy with that decision is, I believe, a lot larger than the group of people unhappy with the decision to have kids.

Especially women who unfortunately have this biological clock ticking faster than men. With our current standard (pushed by media) that we must party until 25yo, then we need to start thinking about taking studying seriously, then after graduating at 30yo we need to start thinking about "building a career", then at 35yo we should start thinking about finding the "final" partner, then at 40yo we should start about thinking actually settling down with them and consider having kids.... it's too late.

Me and my partner, we wasted time really for no reason. Now me 41yo and the kid is 3yo. I would not undo the kid (of course, it is quite rare to feel that way), but if I could change something, we should have done it at very least 5 years earlier, even better 10 years. So I'm also one of those for whom it was the right thing to do but should have believed in that earlier. But oh well, one very healthy kid, I have nothing to complain really.

[Smokey]

surprised no one has posted this yet...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/children-happiness-study-parents-stress-money-christoph-becker-at-heidelberg-university-a9068926.html

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6656342/

[Siwastaja]

surprised no one has posted this yet...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/children-happiness-study-parents-stress-money-christoph-becker-at-heidelberg-university-a9068926.html

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6656342/

My quick take, just based on my own observations as someone who have struggled with mental health somewhat in the past:

Having kids might indeed increase stress and anxiety, the study is probably right in that. But what the study did not measure is, having kids also has effect of making you capable of dealing with that increased stress and anxiety. So the question is, how to measure stress? If you measured the end result, i.e., being capable of action, that gets better, even if you feel stressed. I get up every day, I get my job done. I feel very stressed every once in a while, but it passes faster than it used to, because the kid is constantly shifting the attention back to what needs to be done now, and interestingly, I don't see effects of more stress getting accumulated deep inside. Somehow, just having the kid is enough to automagically bleed off that stress. And it makes total sense, biologically, to have that kind of valve, activated by having the kid, and the necessity of managing the stress.

So, I would say even to people prone to stress and anxiety, it's OK to have kids. You will very likely make it just fine, you are built that way.

[Siwastaja]

It is better to have kids when you are young. Period. For as long as you have work, money will come in and it will dissapear no matter what. And people who don't want to have kids are idiots. There is nothing more rewarding in life.

The massive number of absolutely horrid parents in the world would seem to indicate that this isn't something we should universally want or consider better.

The number is "massive" only in the sense of, oh, we have 8 billion people on this planet. Fraction of "absolutely horrid" parents is totally negligible, I mean, in that you probably never have to deal with one, or people who had to survive "absolutely horrid parents", personally. Like, one in ten of thousand or something. I'm sure you are suffering from the "bad news" bias which easily happens if you follow the usual media. Think about, for example, how much press coverage someone like Josef Fritzl got, over many years. We Europeans at least will never forget about it (you might less coverage for that case but something similar of your own). But it is completely unrepresentative and meaningless when it comes to discussion about having kids.

What I see, instead, is that things are almost too well with parents to the point we are struggling with the medicalization of being normal and over-resourcing of public support services - while, sadly, at the same time, kids who indeed do have to deal with "absolutely horrid parents" are not always able to get help, but that is exactly because these conditions are so rare they are hard to identify and act properly even to professionals.

[EEVblog]

Then again I'm sure there are many who truly, genuinely, will never want kids and will be genuinely happier with that decision for their whole lives. But the group of those unhappy with that decision is, I believe, a lot larger than the group of people unhappy with the decision to have kids.

By many orders in magnitude in my experience.

Especially women who unfortunately have this biological clock ticking faster than men. With our current standard (pushed by media) that we must party until 25yo, then we need to start thinking about taking studying seriously, then after graduating at 30yo we need to start thinking about "building a career", then at 35yo we should start thinking about finding the "final" partner, then at 40yo we should start about thinking actually settling down with them and consider having kids.... it's too late.

Yes, a very very bad idea. And it's one of the major reasons that there is no replacement birthrate in practically any western country.

My wife's gynecologist was telling us how he constantly has 35+ women come in asking why they can't get pregnant. And he has to tell them that it's because you are late 30's, and you peaked about a decade ago. 

Even the OG feminists are now coming out saying they are sorry for preaching this. The internet of course is full of "I've left it too late" sob stories.

[nctnico]

Plenty of valid reasons not to want children. Genetic hereditary diseases, mental health, physical health (injury to mother or high chance of complications, short expected lifespan).
Saying that its rewarding to *you* I can get behind and appreciate, throwing out blanket statements that your feelings apply to everyone else is egocentric. It tells me you can't see through the eyes of others.

IMHO one of the problems of modern times: people overthinking things. A problem I spot is that children are always supposed to be born healthy and grow into adulthood. A long time ago I had a look at my family tree. What caught my eye is that my grandfather had 3 or 4 siblings which didn't make it past 6 years old. He had plenty of siblings left though. Modern medicine has made having healthy children the norm but it simply isn't how nature works. I know a couple who have 2 kids out of 12 pregnancies.

[asmi]

My wife's gynecologist was telling us how he constantly has 35+ women come in asking why they can't get pregnant. And he has to tell them that it's because you are late 30's, and you peaked about a decade ago. 

Not only it's harder to conceive with age, but also the higher is the chance of a baby to be born with birth defects. Ask me how do I know :'( Thankfully modern medicine makes wonders, and many babies which would not survive in the past, now can not only survive, but also live a relatively normal life once some correctional surgeries are done when they are still a baby (usually under 1 year old).

[LaserSteve]

The first five minutes of the movie "idiocracy" is a documentary about the overthinking part.

 I'm single, too old, and no kids.  Not by choice.  I've spent 29 years as a caregiver to sick parents, no brothers, no sisters, and I am sort of the last one left with the family name.  Now I'm old and I wonder who will take care of me.  I do have my church family, and we do look after each other.  Take it from someone older but not wiser.

 Take a message from the old Ghost of Christmas Past:  Have kids, and have them early.   

 Having worked in College Education, I didn't exactly miss out, I had plenty of students and grad students to mentor. 

Steve

[Siwastaja]

My wife's gynecologist was telling us how he constantly has 35+ women come in asking why they can't get pregnant. And he has to tell them that it's because you are late 30's, and you peaked about a decade ago. 

Not only it's harder to conceive with age, but also the higher is the chance of a baby to be born with birth defects. Ask me how do I know :'( Thankfully modern medicine makes wonders, and many babies which would not survive in the past, now can not only survive, but also live a relatively normal life once some correctional surgeries are done when they are still a baby (usually under 1 year old).

Yeah. We were really pushing our luck at age 37, but we won against the odds and conceiving was instant and everything in pregnancy and birth like textbook no issues whatsoever. Want to say that to avoid scaremongering... I mean, if you are 37, heck, even 42, and thinking about making babies, you should be definitely doing that and not worrying about not doing it earlier, because that's something you can't fix anymore. The risk of birth defects etc. is still small, still extremely bad luck - and you can have bad luck in any aspect of your life (especially indispensable programmers should be careful near buses), fearing about it is the worst thing to waste your life with. And as you say, even this relatively small risk can be managed with modern day options.

[Cyclotron]

My wife's gynecologist was telling us how he constantly has 35+ women come in asking why they can't get pregnant. And he has to tell them that it's because you are late 30's, and you peaked about a decade ago. 

Not only it's harder to conceive with age, but also the higher is the chance of a baby to be born with birth defects. Ask me how do I know :'( Thankfully modern medicine makes wonders, and many babies which would not survive in the past, now can not only survive, but also live a relatively normal life once some correctional surgeries are done when they are still a baby (usually under 1 year old).

Yeah. We were really pushing our luck at age 37, but we won against the odds and conceiving was instant and everything in pregnancy and birth like textbook no issues whatsoever. Want to say that to avoid scaremongering... I mean, if you are 37, heck, even 42, and thinking about making babies, you should be definitely doing that and not worrying about not doing it earlier, because that's something you can't fix anymore. The risk of birth defects etc. is still small, still extremely bad luck - and you can have bad luck in any aspect of your life (especially indispensable programmers should be careful near buses), fearing about it is the worst thing to waste your life with. And as you say, even this relatively small risk can be managed with modern day options.

I think I was 35 when my first was born, so I agree. In hindsight, it would have been better to start earlier, but I wanted my career path well established for the "afford" it part, but as others have said, the money isn't the problem, I don't think.

[Zero999]

And people who don't want to have kids are idiots.

Whoa there, buddy: I represent that remark.

Don't want any kids here.
And it's not that I don't like kids; I do. Just don't want to be the one responsible for them.

I'm in the same boat. My partner and I never want children. We have enough of them in our lives through our family. Our careers and living life generally gives us all the fulfilment we desire. For us, children would only be a hinderance. We may get a dog one day, but that's TBD.

If having children is fulfilling to you and "completes" your life, more power to you, but it doesn't for us. Each to their own.

Quite frankly, if you don't want children, then there's something wrong with you: selfishness, autism, anxiety etc. Note that I'm childless myself at the age of 43 and admit there's something wrong with me, before anyone gets offended.

surprised no one has posted this yet...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/children-happiness-study-parents-stress-money-christoph-becker-at-heidelberg-university-a9068926.html

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6656342/

My quick take, just based on my own observations as someone who have struggled with mental health somewhat in the past:

Having kids might indeed increase stress and anxiety, the study is probably right in that. But what the study did not measure is, having kids also has effect of making you capable of dealing with that increased stress and anxiety. So the question is, how to measure stress? If you measured the end result, i.e., being capable of action, that gets better, even if you feel stressed. I get up every day, I get my job done. I feel very stressed every once in a while, but it passes faster than it used to, because the kid is constantly shifting the attention back to what needs to be done now, and interestingly, I don't see effects of more stress getting accumulated deep inside. Somehow, just having the kid is enough to automagically bleed off that stress. And it makes total sense, biologically, to have that kind of valve, activated by having the kid, and the necessity of managing the stress.

So, I would say even to people prone to stress and anxiety, it's OK to have kids. You will very likely make it just fine, you are built that way.

It's a poor study, but even if taken at face value, it stills paints parenthood in a positive light. If one has children when they're young, then they have plenty of time to enjoy when they've grown up and then they might be lucky enough to have grandchildren.

[asmi]

Yeah. We were really pushing our luck at age 37, but we won against the odds and conceiving was instant and everything in pregnancy and birth like textbook no issues whatsoever. Want to say that to avoid scaremongering... I mean, if you are 37, heck, even 42, and thinking about making babies, you should be definitely doing that and not worrying about not doing it earlier, because that's something you can't fix anymore. The risk of birth defects etc. is still small, still extremely bad luck - and you can have bad luck in any aspect of your life (especially indispensable programmers should be careful near buses), fearing about it is the worst thing to waste your life with. And as you say, even this relatively small risk can be managed with modern day options.

We weren't so lucky and our son ended up with a mild case of ToF, but now - two open heart surgeries later (each one was 11 hrs long!) - he is living a mostly normal life, the only thing is he is going to have to do periodical checkups by cardiologist as he grows as he might need a catheterization procedure to expand underdeveloped pulmonary artery every once on a while, and at some point close to adulthood he will need another heart surgery to install an "adult" version of a conduit. These kinds of surgeries have become a more-or-less routine with success rate in high 90's percent only a decade or so ago, before he would not have survived past first few days after birth. And more importantly this condition - once successfully corrected - does not impose any limitations on the kinds of activities he can do, so all doors are still open for him to do whatever he decides to do.

[Electrodynamic]

And it's not that I don't like kids; I do. Just don't want to be the one responsible for them.

Responsibility for the growth of another life is the ultimate reward in life.

I agree and getting married and having a couple kids was the best move I ever made. It teaches us responsibility, humility, giving to others, an open mind and many other important lessons imo.

I'm a bit on the redneck/conservative side so my family is always trying to domesticate me. It seems to be working and I'm learning. My lawn tractor still has a beer holder and a rifle rack but that's okay.

[jpanhalt]

Put me in the for kids group and my brother too.  We each have 4.  My first at 29, wife at 26.  We both had careers -- I took a few more years.  Our last was at wife = 40.  I still remember her words in the deliver suite, "I'm too old for this." 

It's tough to have two in diapers -- or in college --at the same time.  Any similarity between those two ages is completely coincidental.

[SteveThackery]

Quite frankly, if you don't want children, then there's something wrong with you: selfishness, autism, anxiety etc. Note that I'm childless myself at the age of 43 and admit there's something wrong with me, before anyone gets offended.

This must be the most sweeping statement in the whole thread! (And absolutely no offence taken.)

The statement of wrong. I can honestly and truly say that I simply never wanted kids. I don't like kids. I didn’t want the responsibility. I didn't want the obligations and the loss of freedom. I was so completely at ease with my instincts that I had a vasectomy at the age of 31 so that I could have sex with no risk of anyone being born. And I don't believe anyone who knows me would say there is something wrong with me. They might say I'm fat, ugly and disagreeable - with good reason - but those qualities haven't stopped millions of other people like me wanting, and having, babies.

By the way, I'm the eldest of three brothers. My youngest brother - who, unlike me, was a real hit with the ladies - was also childless. Only the middle brother has kids.

I honestly and truly think that, in this debate, we can only ever speak for ourselves. It seems profoundly wrong to make generalisations based upon our own opinions.

[pcprogrammer]

Quite frankly, if you don't want children, then there's something wrong with you: selfishness, autism, anxiety etc.

This must be the most sweeping statement in the whole thread! (And absolutely no offence taken.)

I hesitated to enter this thread, but I agree on this and do take offense against the selfishness remark, because that goes both ways. People who have kids do it for themselves just as much as people who do not want to have kids, do it for themselves.

As to nctnico his remark that people that do not want to have kids are idiots, I ask why?

I don't have any and am perfectly happy with that. I don't let my happiness be defined by others and certainly not by having kids. If it works for you and others that is fine, but don't go round calling people you don't even know idiots, just because it does not fit with your believes.

My reason not to have kids, probably because, as a youngster, I have been on the receiving end of bullies making me dislike humans and kids in particularly. At age 16 I already made up my mind and it has never changed since.

The old neanderthal instinct to have to spread your DNA has passed me by, and luckily my wife never had the maternal instinctive drive to start nesting either, so win win for me.

I honestly and truly think that, in this debate, we can only ever speak for ourselves. It seems profoundly wrong to make generalisations based upon our own opinions.

I fully agree with this. There is no general truth to either side. It is all based on personal preferences.

On a side note, something that can easily kill your happiness, just a couple of days ago in the Dutch news there was a story about how many young people kill themself which in the Netherlands is around 26 per month. That is an average first grade school class. And with young people they meant less then 30 years old.