Kids And Happiness

[nctnico]

Quite frankly, if you don't want children, then there's something wrong with you: selfishness, autism, anxiety etc.

This must be the most sweeping statement in the whole thread! (And absolutely no offence taken.)

I hesitated to enter this thread, but I agree on this and do take offense against the selfishness remark, because that goes both ways. People who have kids do it for themselves just as much as people who do not want to have kids, do it for themselves.

As to nctnico his remark that people that do not want to have kids are idiots, I ask why?

Well, this was a tongue in cheek comment as the thread this thread has spawned from had ran it's course 

On a side note, something that can easily kill your happiness, just a couple of days ago in the Dutch news there was a story about how many young people kill themself which in the Netherlands is around 26 per month. That is an average first grade school class. And with young people they meant less then 30 years old.

But that is not a problem with/from having kids. That is modern society lacking cohesion and the (mental) toxicity of social media. But likely the number of kids dying from accidents and illnesses is much larger. It sucks massively but realistically the chance your own kid dies is very small. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many people around.

[pcprogrammer]

On a side note, something that can easily kill your happiness, just a couple of days ago in the Dutch news there was a story about how many young people kill themself which in the Netherlands is around 26 per month. That is an average first grade school class. And with young people they meant less then 30 years old.

But that is not a problem with/from having kids. That is modern society lacking cohesion and the (mental) toxicity of social media.

Yes that is the cause of this phenomenon*, but it would surely kill your happiness if one of your kids did this to themself.

* A totally different topic for sure and that is why I mentioned it as a side note.

[nctnico]

On a side note, something that can easily kill your happiness, just a couple of days ago in the Dutch news there was a story about how many young people kill themself which in the Netherlands is around 26 per month. That is an average first grade school class. And with young people they meant less then 30 years old.

But that is not a problem with/from having kids. That is modern society lacking cohesion and the (mental) toxicity of social media.

Yes that is the cause of this phenomenon*, but it would surely kill your happiness if one of your kids did this to themself.

I added the following to what you quoted: But likely the number of kids dying from accidents and illnesses is much larger. It sucks massively but realistically the chance your own kid dies is very small. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many people around.

[Zero999]

Quite frankly, if you don't want children, then there's something wrong with you: selfishness, autism, anxiety etc.

This must be the most sweeping statement in the whole thread! (And absolutely no offence taken.)

I hesitated to enter this thread, but I agree on this and do take offense against the selfishness remark, because that goes both ways. People who have kids do it for themselves just as much as people who do not want to have kids, do it for themselves.

I don't see why you're offended by the selfishness remark. We are all flawed. I admit I'm not perfect. I all to often lose my temper and have meltdowns, which I consider to be wrong and I'm working on it.

I generally find people who have children to be more selfless, compared to those who don't. People who have children are also more interested in having a better society, which prospers long after they're gone.

Perhaps wrong wasn't the right word, abnormal is probably a better term, but I perceive the lack of desire to procreate as a negative thing and I've met/know many people who fall into that group. The reasons listed in the last couple of replies are negative "I value my freedom and don't want to take responsibility"; indicates an element of selfishness and "I was bullied as a child, so dislike children" is indicative of an underlying mental health/emotional issue.

It might be the person can't help not wanting children, but it's still not positive. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to associate with someone like that. Again, no one is perfect. I always look at the person as a whole.

[jpanhalt]

... but I perceive the lack of desire to procreate as a negative thing and I've met/know many people who fall into that group.

A lot of people hate Elon Musk, but he definitely is not part of that group.  When his time is over, there will be a lot of little Musks in the World.

[Zero999]

... but I perceive the lack of desire to procreate as a negative thing and I've met/know many people who fall into that group.

A lot of people hate Elon Musk, but he definitely is not part of that group.  When his time is over, there will be a lot of little Musks in the World.

And a lot of people like Elon Musk.

Either way, Musk clearly cares about the future of society, after he's gone, whether one agrees with his vision or not, he will leave a lasting legacy.

[SteveThackery]

People who have children are also more interested in having a better society, which prospers long after they're gone.

Another sweeping generalisation.

[Smokey]

...

surprised no one has posted this yet...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/children-happiness-study-parents-stress-money-christoph-becker-at-heidelberg-university-a9068926.html

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6656342/

My quick take, just based on my own observations as someone who have struggled with mental health somewhat in the past:

Having kids might indeed increase stress and anxiety, the study is probably right in that. But what the study did not measure is, having kids also has effect of making you capable of dealing with that increased stress and anxiety. So the question is, how to measure stress? If you measured the end result, i.e., being capable of action, that gets better, even if you feel stressed. I get up every day, I get my job done. I feel very stressed every once in a while, but it passes faster than it used to, because the kid is constantly shifting the attention back to what needs to be done now, and interestingly, I don't see effects of more stress getting accumulated deep inside. Somehow, just having the kid is enough to automagically bleed off that stress. And it makes total sense, biologically, to have that kind of valve, activated by having the kid, and the necessity of managing the stress.

So, I would say even to people prone to stress and anxiety, it's OK to have kids. You will very likely make it just fine, you are built that way.

It's a poor study, but even if taken at face value, it stills paints parenthood in a positive light. If one has children when they're young, then they have plenty of time to enjoy when they've grown up and then they might be lucky enough to have grandchildren.

You can't get your 20s and 30s back.  Many of us already consume that prime time working too much, which there is a general consensus is non-optimal.  Stacking the irrevocable responsibilities of kids for some hopefully deferred later happiness is a multiplier on top of working too much and a gamble and opportunity cost that I feel most people don't fully account for.  The world is full of wonderful and fulfilling experiences, of which having kids is just one of them.
Anecdote: I worked with a dude that started popping out kids at 19 with his highschool girlfriend.  While his friends were figuring out who they wanted to be and living their lives, he was changing diapers and wiping noses.  He tried to make up for it in his 40s after a divorce and his kids moved out, but it's not the same.

Note: I'm not saying anyone should or should not have kids.  But I am saying that everyone should do the life accounting and make sure you know as best you possibly can (impossible?) what you are getting yourself into (and likely giving up) and that you are willing to do that and play the odds of it not working out as you planned.  I also have the impression that for most people who have not been in close proximity to someone else responsible for an infant, they have no idea what that experience actually requires of them (which in my opinion is an experience under any other context most people would immediately turn down).

[nctnico]

I also have the impression that for most people who have not been in close proximity to someone else responsible for an infant, they have no idea what that experience actually requires of them (which in my opinion is an experience under any other context most people would immediately turn down).

If that where true, far less people would have pets. Nowadays you see quite a lot of people walking their dog in a strawler.   

And it might sound strange but every now and then I refer to kids as pets. It is not like a cat or dog never pukes or does a number 1 or 2 in places which are inappropriate or don't need any care. However, kids keep evolving and you can have a meaningful conversation with them and learn them new things continuously. And unlike cats or dogs, kids typically don't die before you do. Another big plus.

[EEVblog]

As to nctnico his remark that people that do not want to have kids are idiots, I ask why?

Leaving the "idiot" part aside.
There are many reasons to have kids, including but not limited to "feel good" stuff like the ability to essentially relive your youth again through their eyes. And a likely a third time through grand kids. The closest thing to time travel you'll get.
And knowing what you have passed on your genes, and raised your kids in your mold (somewhat), gives you something to be immensely proud of.
In your final years and on your death bed you aren't going to be remembering anything but the time spent with your kids (and partner).

And pragmatically, having someone who is likely to care for you when you are old and start having issues. Someone to be there to care for you. Especially if you lose your partner and are left alone. And having someone to pass on your estate and to, help out financially, and give income to if you are in business for example. Or to have them help you out financially if you are in that unfortunate position.
Sagan for example, is coincidentally today becoming an official part time employee of the EEVBlog and will be getting a wage. The tax department can suck it.
Sure you can do these thing for strangers or friends, or even other family members, but it's not remotely the same feeling.

As others have said, very few people who have kids regret it. But countless people (especially women) deeply regret not having kids. It's not even close, order and orders of magnitude difference.

But as always, YMMV, you do you.

[Smokey]

I also have the impression that for most people who have not been in close proximity to someone else responsible for an infant, they have no idea what that experience actually requires of them (which in my opinion is an experience under any other context most people would immediately turn down).

If that where true, far less people would have pets. Nowadays you see quite a lot of people walking their dog in a strawler.   

And it might sound strange but every now and then I refer to kids as pets. It is not like a cat or dog never pukes or does a number 1 or 2 in places which are inappropriate or don't need any care. Only kids keep evolving and you can have a meaningful conversation with them and learn them new things continuously. And unlike cats or dogs, kids typically don't die before you do. Another big plus.

pet babies are a totally different issue
it's also a lot easier to "rehome" a pet for whatever reason if you change your mind.
Do other countries have something like the "fire station child drop box"?

[Analog Kid]

People who have children are also more interested in having a better society, which prospers long after they're gone.

Another sweeping generalisation.

Yes, and one that I utterly reject.
This is exactly the kind of sweeping generalization I was referring to when I was dinged above by Dave for simply arguing against what I disagreed with; this is yet another example of someone who seems to think they know better than anyone else what's good for us.

Anyhow, not to beat that dead horse any further.
I'd just like to say that I definitely do not want kids, haven't really ever wanted them and have no regrets about that.
And yet I really do like kids; other people's kids, that is.
You see, it's possible for both things here to be true. There's not one well-defined path here, no matter how good an amateur psychologist or sociologist you think you may be. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

I used to live across the street from a daycare center. I really enjoyed hearing the kids out on the playlot, especially those excited shrieks that only kids of a certain age emit; music to my ears.

I'm not even bothered much by crying kids at close quarters.
I only draw the line at that annoying kid sitting behind you on the plane or bus who insists on coming up behind and bothering you. But you know what? I could even live with that.

After all, what are kids? They're the future.

[thm_w]

It might be the person can't help not wanting children, but it's still not positive. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to associate with someone like that. Again, no one is perfect. I always look at the person as a whole.

And telling/forcing them to have children is not going to make them happier, its going to do the opposite, as in study linked above, which is why this thread started in the first place. Your point is tangential.

I could lecture a good percent of the people about poor diet and exercise, call them idiots for not running 10km per day or something. Hell that has far more universal evidence relating to happiness than parenthood. But what chance does calling you an idiot for not doing x have on changing your mind? Again, its egocentric, which is not a positive trait either.

[EEVblog]

People who have children are also more interested in having a better society, which prospers long after they're gone.

Another sweeping generalisation.

Yes, and one that I utterly reject.

You can reject it all you like, but technically he's correct.
If you truly care about the future of human society, your country, or whatever, and you are capable of having kids but you chose not to, then from the point of view of "doing something about it", you don't care as much as someone who has kids and actually contributes to the continuance of human society.
That's pretty obvious. A societies future is doomed without people having kids. A county is doomed without having kids. A culture is doomed without having kids.

Sure, you can contribute in other ways, but ultimately, the main thing that matters for a society is that there are people who follow on and continue that society. I bolded the key point, "after you are gone".
You could for example, build a great company or thing that helps society, and that's great, and the be applauded. But if there is no one left after you are gone because everyone decided not to have kids, it will ultimately mean nothing.
Most people on average contribute very little to the progress of a society, it's sheer statistics. But the best impact you can make, if you do "care about making a better society after you are gone", if by having kids to ensure that the society continues.

I'm not sure how that view would be in any way controversial, it's just a simple fact.

I'd just like to say that I definitely do not want kids, haven't really ever wanted them and have no regrets about that.
And yet I really do like kids; other people's kids, that is.
You see, it's possible for both things here to be true.

No one was saying that.

After all, what are kids? They're the future.

A future which you chose not to contribute to.
And once again, that's fine, you do you.
All the others are saying is that it's really cool to be part of the group that does contribute to that future.

[Analog Kid]

A societies future is doomed without people having kids. A county is doomed without having kids. A culture is doomed without having kids.

Yes, but goddamnit, talk about missing the fucking point!
You're implying--not stating but implying--that that means that everyone in a society must reproduce in order to assure the success of that society.

Which is, of course, utter nonsense.

And really, this has implications well beyond just me complaining about what I think is a gross error on your part.
This smells a lot like many dystopian schemes that are based on things like fertility, genetic selection and eugenics. Things like, say, The Handmaid's Tale. Attempts to strictly control reproductive behavior with the stated goal of "perfecting society".

[Analog Kid]

After all, what are kids? They're the future.

A future which you chose not to contribute to.
And once again, that's fine, you do you.
All the others are saying is that it's really cool to be part of the group that does contribute to that future.

No.
Some of the others are saying (or at least implying) that if you don't contribute to that future you're some kind of antisocial asshole.

[thm_w]

As others have said, very few people who have kids regret it. But countless people (especially women) deeply regret not having kids. It's not even close, order and orders of magnitude difference.

But as always, YMMV, you do you.

To put some hard numbers on this beyond "very few", its anywhere from 8-20% of parents that regretted having children (germany, poland, and US studies). So the "orders of magnitude" claim is incorrect.

Nailing down the "regret not having" percent is difficult as the data often contains people who wanted to have children but were unable to (health, financial, etc. reasons). People who *chose* not to have children for the most part do not regret it.
I completely agree that if you want to, then do not put it off.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8294566/
https://www.dw.com/en/poll-regrets-german-parents-increasingly-have-a-few/a-19440574
www.psypost.org/new-study-confirms-many-adults-opt-for-child-free-life-without-regret/

[EEVblog]

A societies future is doomed without people having kids. A county is doomed without having kids. A culture is doomed without having kids.

Yes, but goddamnit, talk about missing the fucking point!
You're implying--not stating but implying--that that means that everyone in a society must reproduce in order to assure the success of that society.

You're doing it again! 
No one said or implied any such thing.
The replacement rate for a society is around 2.1 kids, so for a society to maintain itself organically it must keep up this rate.
It doesn't mean everyone should be forced to have 2.1 kids 
Just stop this nonsense please.

Some people here are just saying kids are cool, and as it happens, a necessary part of keeping a society going. Someone has to do it, and given that there will always be people who can't have kids, or don't want to have kids, or *insert other reason here*, society has to make up for that by some having more than the average 2.1.

For the last time, if you don't want kids, fine, you do you.

And really, this has implications well beyond just me complaining about what I think is a gross error on your part.
This smells a lot like many dystopian schemes that are based on things like fertility, genetic selection and eugenics. Things like, say, The Handmaid's Tale. Attempts to strictly control reproductive behavior with the stated goal of "perfecting society".

[Psi]

Maybe we need a joke to lighten the mood.

(I'm sorry)

[abeyer]

Fraction of "absolutely horrid" parents is totally negligible, I mean, in that you probably never have to deal with one, or people who had to survive "absolutely horrid parents", personally. Like, one in ten of thousand or something. I'm sure you are suffering from the "bad news" bias which easily happens if you follow the usual media.

Absolutely not. Certainly I've heard even worse in the 'bad news' media... but even just among the circle of people I know well enough that they would want to share some of the less pleasant deatails of their lives, I know of all manner of drugs, neglect, abuse, abandonment, and just pathologically bad parenting

[abeyer]

To put some hard numbers on this beyond "very few", its anywhere from 8-20% of parents that regretted having children (germany, poland, and US studies). So the "orders of magnitude" claim is incorrect.

I also suspect that numbers there are likely underestimates, as there is so much social stigma to saying "I don't want my kids."

Also, looking at things like the number of fathers who divorce or have children unmarried and then have little or no contact with them would add considerably to those numbers.

[abeyer]

You're doing it again! 
No one said or implied any such thing.

Can't tell if you're deliberately trolling him or oblivious. (or both?)

[pcprogrammer]

Nailing down the "regret not having" percent is difficult as the data often contains people who wanted to have children but were unable to (health, financial, etc. reasons).

Unfortunately not a reason for many who basically can't afford to have kids to still have them. 

Dave his post here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/kids-and-happiness/msg6166147/#msg6166147 holds a big truth and I should have followed it, but here I am again. Yes there is no winner to be in this whole argument about kids and happiness. Only multiple groups with different opinions, that will never change their minds about the underlying subject, and that is ok.

To the future of society, sure a lot of people that have kids would want it to be a good one for those kids, but the question at the moment is if that will be the case, at least in the short term, and another question is, does it even matter in the long term.

Is the human race actually so great that it has to stay in existence for ever, especially looking at the greater scheme of the whole universe. What does it matter if we fade away and no evidence of our existence remains? (Who remembers the film "The meaning of life")

For this to be excepted we as a species have to step over our own ego for sure.

Our track record through the ages is not so great, and we do not seem to learn from it. Just look around you to see what is going on in the world at the moment.

On the subject of selfish, my offense taken is not about the selfish it self, it is about calling one side selfish, while it applies to both sides, and in fact it basically is a deep seated human trait. When it comes down to it we all are. Even doing good is practically always a selfish thing, why, because it makes YOU feel good.

I know I'm selfish, egocentric, and a loner. Always have been, one could say it is in my genes, and I'm fine with that. Trying to change ones character is a hard thing to do, and not many will succeed in doing that. And that is ok, as long as you do not harm others with it.

Do you harm anyone by not having kids, maybe, maybe not. Same for having kids. Don't forget that some of them grow up to become a serial killer. 

Yes I am the devils advocate.

[EEVblog]

You're doing it again! 
No one said or implied any such thing.

Can't tell if you're deliberately trolling him or oblivious. (or both?)

Not trolling, he just keeps accusing me of implying something I'm not.

[Siwastaja]

Unfortunately not a reason for many who basically can't afford to have kids to still have them. 

I think there are many valid reasons not to have kids, or regret having them, including "lack of freedom" (in the sense that kids require a lot of your presence and affecft where you can go), but "cannot financially afford to have kids" is one of the stupidest "reasons"/explanations.

Specifically, there is inverse relationship between average number of kids vs. gross product of nation. Poorest people have the most kids.

I can assure you, having kids costs nearly nothing. Many of those people who say they can't have kids due to financial reasons do have pets, and pets are more expensive really.

Some may want to do "look I'm rich" lifestyle statements through their kids, and that's OK, but that is a choice, you don't have to do that.

For us, feeding birds during winter is a bigger expense currently than our kid, and yes, she has food and warm clothes and some toys. This is really all the material a kid needs. And some best toys include a piece of wood bark she found herself, it's her "tree baby".