Kids And Happiness

[Zero999]

Which is obviously a problem when some people and countries start de-humanizing others they do not agree with saying things like "These aren't people; these are animals". We know how some people mistreat animals so we should understand where this is going.

All animals are sentient creatures.
Indisputable fact. End of story.

Even jellyfish and oysters? You do realise that not all animals possesses the capacity to experience emotions. Some exhibit basic reflexes.

[Analog Kid]

Which is obviously a problem when some people and countries start de-humanizing others they do not agree with saying things like "These aren't people; these are animals". We know how some people mistreat animals so we should understand where this is going.

All animals are sentient creatures.
Indisputable fact. End of story.

Even jellyfish and oysters? You do realise that not all animals possesses the capacity to experience emotions. Some exhibit basic reflexes.

Possibly even bacteria. Anything that has the "life force".
It's only our own inbuilt prejudices that prevent us from acknowledging this.
We only see cute cuddly creatures as possibly possessing sentience. And sometimes not even them.

[Zero999]

Which is obviously a problem when some people and countries start de-humanizing others they do not agree with saying things like "These aren't people; these are animals". We know how some people mistreat animals so we should understand where this is going.

All animals are sentient creatures.
Indisputable fact. End of story.

Even jellyfish and oysters? You do realise that not all animals possesses the capacity to experience emotions. Some exhibit basic reflexes.

Possibly even bacteria. Anything that has the "life force".
It's only our own inbuilt prejudices that prevent us from acknowledging this.
We only see cute cuddly creatures as possibly possessing sentience. And sometimes not even them.

I remember a debate about plants feeling pain, but I think that was debunked awhile ago.

And no, it's nothing to do with cuddly or cute creatures. There is plenty of evidence that less than cute animals can suffer and learn from pain.

[Analog Kid]

And no, it's nothing to do with cuddly or cute creatures. There is plenty of evidence that less than cute animals can suffer and learn from pain.

So maybe there's hope for you after all.

[Zero999]

And no, it's nothing to do with cuddly or cute creatures. There is plenty of evidence that less than cute animals can suffer and learn from pain.

So maybe there's hope for you after all.

Good, I'm glad you think so.

Perhaps there isn't much for yourself. Just think about all the innocent bacteria your immune system destroys every day. lol

[Analog Kid]

And no, it's nothing to do with cuddly or cute creatures. There is plenty of evidence that less than cute animals can suffer and learn from pain.

So maybe there's hope for you after all.

Good, I'm glad you think so.

Perhaps there isn't much for yourself. Just think about all the innocent bacteria your immune system destroys every day. lol

Yes, living is one huge compromise, isn't it?

[soldar]

Forgive me but I have not read the entire thread as it is quite long.

Is there a consensus about when it is acceptable to strangle other people's children who are uncontrolled and bothering me? I am thinking of places likes restaurants.

[Cyclotron]

Forgive me but I have not read the entire thread as it is quite long.

Is there a consensus about when it is acceptable to strangle other people's children who are uncontrolled and bothering me? I am thinking of places likes restaurants.

I reserve the strangulation for the parents of the children. I have no problem saying something to the parents of a child who is misbehaving.

[paulca]

[Analog Kid]

Forgive me but I have not read the entire thread as it is quite long.

Is there a consensus about when it is acceptable to strangle other people's children who are uncontrolled and bothering me? I am thinking of places likes restaurants.

I reserve the strangulation for the parents of the children. I have no problem saying something to the parents of a child who is misbehaving.

I also have no problem saying something to parents who are obviously abusing their child in public.
Doesn't happen very often, denks Gott, but it does happen.

[pcprogrammer]

How about this one: https://www.nu.nl/binnenland/6383846/kinderen-10-en-11-richten-doelbewust-ravage-aan-in-ziekenhuis-schiedam.html

Two boys 10 and 11 years of age intentionally wreak havoc in a hospital. They went to the hospital carrying spray paint and several tools like garden scissors, to deliberately cause damage.

Due to being younger then 12 years old they can not be prosecuted by law. 

The police had  "serious conversations" with the parents, so they would most likely not be happy campers.

The same old question comes up, what is wrong with people?

[Siwastaja]

The same old question comes up, what is wrong with people?

8 billion people on this planet. Most people are relatively decent, but it's media's job to highlight bad news because that generates clicks and revenue stream.

[pcprogrammer]

The same old question comes up, what is wrong with people?

8 billion people on this planet. Most people are relatively decent, but it's media's job to highlight bad news because that generates clicks and revenue stream.

Of course, but it did not enter our minds as youngsters to go to a hospital and tear up the place. Sure we misbehaved too, but this?

And yes, maybe it is only due to the media highlighting these kinds of things more, but to me it feels as if it is actually getting worse.

[Cyclotron]

The same old question comes up, what is wrong with people?

8 billion people on this planet. Most people are relatively decent, but it's media's job to highlight bad news because that generates clicks and revenue stream.

Humans are predisposed to focus on these types of things due to Negativity Bias
https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/negativity-bias

Every generation sees the world as getting worse over its lifespan. When I talk to friends about how low crime is (historic lows) they are gobsmacked by this and immediately do not believe it.

The same negativity is amplified by social media. Negativity biases dominate our society, and it is due to the media's need to make money.
The "algorithm" knows how to push your buttons and leverage your negativity bias because clicks = money.

[paulca]

The "algorithm" knows how to push your buttons and leverage your negativity bias because clicks = money.

Same reason world leaders are pushing the same buttons right now then.

[Siwastaja]

Of course, but it did not enter our minds as youngsters to go to a hospital and tear up the place. Sure we misbehaved too, but this?

And yes, maybe it is only due to the media highlighting these kinds of things more, but to me it feels as if it is actually getting worse.

Today's youngsters being worse than before has been felt since ancient times. Luckily it is not true, it is in your head, generally.

Our brain has this derivator circuitry which looks at apparent changes in things. It is followed by a comparator which triggers an alarm on negative/dangerous things. This is very useful circuitry for survival: simple derivative is an easy way to do edge case detection (avoiding complicated analysis of "what is normal") and alarms are useful for survival. Positive signals take a much longer and complicated path in your brain.

Problem is, people forget easily things not related to them directly. So now you read a news article of vandalism at a hospital. But you forgot already that you read some other article about some other equally serious incident 5 years ago. Just like you will not remember this hospital vandalism article in 2030 anymore. Now with that reference point disappearing, your brain tries to apply the derivative. It will be biased towards negative because the "good old" reference level is lifted but "current" level is not. Now any noise in the system will be generating those alerts.

This is what happens when you feed your brain, wired for your own personal survival, data from mainstream media which is not close enough to yourself to be that interesting.

Also when one gets older, the time delta for the derivative increases. That, coupled with forgetting, makes the derivative less useful. The whole mechanism is most useful for young, active people who have to face risks e.g. fight against beasts for food and survival.

Try to exercise your brain. I'm not going to say "think positive". But try to remember old negative things. Old news you don't instinctively take into account anymore. If I do that, I will see, for example, that school shootings have stopped in Finland! What great news!

[Cyclotron]

The "algorithm" knows how to push your buttons and leverage your negativity bias because clicks = money.

Same reason world leaders are pushing the same buttons right now then.

Right, of course. Politicians have always been in the business of using negativity bias to get elected and gain power. What a strange world it would be for a politician to announce they wanted your vote because things are great and they'd like your support to change that.

Even the politician in office can't really stay in office because "hey, look how great things are."

[Marco]

Negativity Bias

Though it has no wikipedia page, progress bias is prevalent too.

Up till now we've just stumbled from metastability to metastability, around half the time you'd be right to say kids were getting worse by most metrics except IQ. Though arguably recently even for IQ.

[Electrodynamic]

Negativity Bias

Though it has no wikipedia page, progress bias is prevalent too.

Up till now we've just stumbled from metastability to metastability, around half the time you'd be right to say kids were getting worse by most metrics except IQ. Though arguably recently even for IQ.

I talk with a lot of kids on a one to one basis about what they think.

Unfortunately the common consensus is "why bother". Why bother trying when the system is rigged against them and the older generation seems intent on destroying the planet and their future.

I understand their perspective and as a boomer in my day liars and people who grope or abuse women were shunned and sent to prison not elected as leaders. Any person lying or cheating and gaslighting people was outcast not worshiped. People who read the bible tended to follow it's lessons not do the opposite and attack any criticism. Kids get really confused when all the adults are telling them one thing then doing the opposite. They have lost faith and trust in the system we created and now seem intent on destroying. 

In my day I got a fair wage and could afford to have kids and buy a house. Today corporations are buying all the houses above market value as a write off to avoid taxes and renting them. These same psychotic people are crying minimum wage is too high. What do you think is going to happen when wages drop as rent and house prices triple?. Not rocket science.

So I think it's nonsense to say our kids are lazy and not that smart. They seem to understand exactly what's going on and aren't buying into the BS. Do you know what they are saying behind closed doors?, they think most adults have lost their morals and are consumed by greed. They are not wrong in my opinion.

[soldar]

Of course, but it did not enter our minds as youngsters to go to a hospital and tear up the place. Sure we misbehaved too, but this?

And yes, maybe it is only due to the media highlighting these kinds of things more, but to me it feels as if it is actually getting worse.

Today's youngsters being worse than before has been felt since ancient times. Luckily it is not true, it is in your head, generally.

Our brain has this derivator circuitry which looks at apparent changes in things. It is followed by a comparator which triggers an alarm on negative/dangerous things. This is very useful circuitry for survival: simple derivative is an easy way to do edge case detection (avoiding complicated analysis of "what is normal") and alarms are useful for survival. Positive signals take a much longer and complicated path in your brain.

Problem is, people forget easily things not related to them directly. So now you read a news article of vandalism at a hospital. But you forgot already that you read some other article about some other equally serious incident 5 years ago. Just like you will not remember this hospital vandalism article in 2030 anymore. Now with that reference point disappearing, your brain tries to apply the derivative. It will be biased towards negative because the "good old" reference level is lifted but "current" level is not. Now any noise in the system will be generating those alerts.

This is what happens when you feed your brain, wired for your own personal survival, data from mainstream media which is not close enough to yourself to be that interesting.

Also when one gets older, the time delta for the derivative increases. That, coupled with forgetting, makes the derivative less useful. The whole mechanism is most useful for young, active people who have to face risks e.g. fight against beasts for food and survival.

Try to exercise your brain. I'm not going to say "think positive". But try to remember old negative things. Old news you don't instinctively take into account anymore. If I do that, I will see, for example, that school shootings have stopped in Finland! What great news!

I disagree with the central point of your post. There are times in history when things DO get worse. The Great Depression was one such time. And it also depends on time and place. A Jew in 1940 Germany was very correct when he thought things were getting worse. By the beginning of 1945 it was most Germans who were correct in thinking things were getting worse.

Things in China in 1975 were definitely much worse than things in China in 2025.  Things in Paris in 1925 were definitely much better than in 1945. Sometimes things get better and sometimes they get worse. For the "Great Generation", who fought WWII, things definitely got better after the war. Their children, the "baby boomers", definitely had an easier time getting started in life than their grandchildren today.

The way I see it and feel it Western culture and values and countries are most definitely getting worse *in some ways*, not all, but some. As a society we are moving towards anarchy. Anything goes, anything is good, everything is acceptable. We are losing the rules and values and discipline which made us great.

In 1960 there were rules accepted by all of society. A 12 year old child up to mischief would be told off by any adult and the child would respectfully apologize.  Today an adult telling off a child which not his, can end up stabbed by said child, accused of child molesting, or worse.

And I do not blame any generation in particular. We are all equally responsible. But that is how empires end up falling. The Romans could not imagine their empire would disappear but it happened.

[soldar]

I talk with a lot of kids on a one to one basis about what they think.

Unfortunately the common consensus is "why bother". Why bother trying when the system is rigged against them and the older generation seems intent on destroying the planet and their future.

I understand their perspective and as a boomer in my day liars and people who grope or abuse women were shunned and sent to prison not elected as leaders. Any person lying or cheating and gaslighting people was outcast not worshiped. People who read the bible tended to follow it's lessons not do the opposite and attack any criticism. Kids get really confused when all the adults are telling them one thing then doing the opposite. They have lost faith and trust in the system we created and now seem intent on destroying. 

In my day I got a fair wage and could afford to have kids and buy a house. Today corporations are buying all the houses above market value as a write off to avoid taxes and renting them. These same psychotic people are crying minimum wage is too high. What do you think is going to happen when wages drop as rent and house prices triple?. Not rocket science.

So I think it's nonsense to say our kids are lazy and not that smart. They seem to understand exactly what's going on and aren't buying into the BS. Do you know what they are saying behind closed doors?, they think most adults have lost their morals and are consumed by greed. They are not wrong in my opinion.

While I agree that, in rich countries, kids today have more difficult than their grandfathers I disagree with the rest of your post. The Great generation was brought up in the Great depression and fought WWII.  And then came back home and rebuilt their countries. Compared to that today's young have it easy but they have grown up spoiled. That is in rich countries but there are many more young people in other countries who are willing to put in the work and the effort and they will end up wiping us out of the way.

[Cyclotron]

Negativity Bias

Though it has no wikipedia page, progress bias is prevalent too.

Up till now we've just stumbled from metastability to metastability, around half the time you'd be right to say kids were getting worse by most metrics except IQ. Though arguably recently even for IQ.

Progress bias does exist, but it's not in the same logical set as the discussed Negativity bias. One is generalized, and the other is typically task or goal-specific. Dunning-Kruger is a concept more akin to Negativity bias vs Progress bias. In fact, Dunning-Kruger explains some of the negativity as a lack of knowledge, which is deeply rooted in Negativity bias.

While I agree that, in rich countries, kids today have more difficult than their grandfathers I disagree with the rest of your post. The Great generation was brought up in the Great depression and fought WWII.  And then came back home and rebuilt their countries. Compared to that today's young have it easy but they have grown up spoiled. That is in rich countries but there are many more young people in other countries who are willing to put in the work and the effort and they will end up wiping us out of the way.

Your aperture is too narrow to yield any significant value or insight. For instance, there were plenty of spoiled youth in the roaring 20s.
They too lived through the Great Depression and suffered WWII. The soldier who went to war in 1939 may have lived about 10 years in solid, spectacularly spoiled fashion before the depression began in 1929.

Until some strife were to require the testing of "today's young," it's simply not possible to gauge how they might perform, good or bad.

We can make some measurements, though. We can say that today's youth, Gen-Z and Millennials, are far more educated than at any time in the past.
In fact, they are the most educated generation in history, and women outpace men in higher education. That's never happened before.

We have the least famine in history. Century-level record lows on both violent and property crime.

While it may not seem like it on a micro scale, we are still in the "Long Peace".

 There are far more people today with higher education degrees than ever before in history, and a vast diversity of them. By one measure, that's "better". 

[SteveThackery]

I disagree with the central point of your post. There are times in history when things DO get worse.

Indeed they do! The whole of history is filled with the rise and fall of empires and civilisations: the Babylonian empire, Ancient Greeks, Roman Empire, the Mayan civilisation and the Aztecs and Incas, Spanish Empire, British Empire.

This cycle of things getting better, and then falling apart, is well established. Rapid expansion; administrative, economic or diminishing resources; internal conflict; loss of social values and cohesion; external pressures; invasion (sometimes); loss of cultural and societal identity.

Spain ruled half the world; look at it now. Britain ruled well over half the world; look at it now (fat, lazy, entitled, unable to fix our roads, even). Ancient Greece outshone the world in science, philosophy, education, mathematics, art, and they invented democracy. Wow! Look at Greece now - effectively a third world country with the good fortune of a beautiful climate and dependent on tourism.

Britain - where I live - is clearly in decline. Why should it be any different from all those historical precedents? In fact, I think the West as a whole will probably decline in the 21st century.

So no, I don't believe each generation thinks the next generation is worse, except in the usual "grumpy old man" way. During the 19th century the wealth of the British population rose precipitously (albeit far less precipitously for the working classes), and there was a great optimism about the future through most of the mid-Victorian era. Science and technology were racing forwards at a rate unheard of, ships, roads, railways..... and money! The future seemed bright. Things began to change in the late Victoria years: economic pressure from Germany and the USA; growing awareness of social injustices; and anxieties around moral decline.

And now, it is very hard to find someone of any age in Britain who is optimistic about the future, especially if they are educated enough to look to Britain's history. And they are right to be pessimistic; there is no chance that Britain can buck the rise-and-fall fate of every civilisation in history.

I think the USA is about a hundred years behind the UK in its cycle, so by the end of this century I suspect it will be facing a downhill future.

[soldar]

While I agree that, in rich countries, kids today have more difficult than their grandfathers I disagree with the rest of your post. The Great generation was brought up in the Great depression and fought WWII.  And then came back home and rebuilt their countries. Compared to that today's young have it easy but they have grown up spoiled. That is in rich countries but there are many more young people in other countries who are willing to put in the work and the effort and they will end up wiping us out of the way. 

Your aperture is too narrow to yield any significant value or insight. For instance, there were plenty of spoiled youth in the roaring 20s.
They too lived through the Great Depression and suffered WWII. The soldier who went to war in 1939 may have lived about 10 years in solid, spectacularly spoiled fashion before the depression began in 1929.

Until some strife were to require the testing of "today's young," it's simply not possible to gauge how they might perform, good or bad.

We can make some measurements, though. We can say that today's youth, Gen-Z and Millennials, are far more educated than at any time in the past.
In fact, they are the most educated generation in history, and women outpace men in higher education. That's never happened before.

We have the least famine in history. Century-level record lows on both violent and property crime.

While it may not seem like it on a micro scale, we are still in the "Long Peace".

There are far more people today with higher education degrees than ever before in history, and a vast diversity of them. By one measure, that's "better".

Several comments:

Different parts of the world are in different situations and different parts of the cycle. I believe today the economy of the USA is better off than the economy of Europe and all indications are that difference will continue to grow.

I believe more education is not a sign of better or worse. In Europe, fifty years ago, a youngster out of high school could get a better pay (adjusted for inflation) than today an engineer just out of college. There were plenty of jobs and they paid enough to afford housing, a car, raise a family. Today that is a dream not accessible to most young people.

There was a lot of jobs in industry but they have all disappeared. And I am not of the ones who say we should bring industry back but we have failed to adapt to the change, to the new times.

I do not know about crime stats in the USA but crime stats today in Spain, and I believe Europe as a whole, are way higher than they were 50 years ago. Unemployment is also way higher. Standard of living (housing, car ownership, etc.) is way down.

Europe today is a mess because it is completely disorganized. I do not see things getting better in Europe.