LG Battery BS

[EEVblog]

I think the commercial is right to warn the common public against the dangers of unprotected lithium cells / lithium cells from shady suppliers.

IMHO more like covering their ass in case of lawsuits. They can now show that we warned consumers not to use them.

Yes, it's just basic (but pathetic) arse covering with the proliferation of 18650 in consumer gadgets. Although LG don't sell them direct to the consumer, their cells will be used by suppliers and even marketed as such. Nothing at all to do with repair as Louis is focusing on.

[nctnico]

Although 20mR I see in the datasheet seems very low.

20m Ohm is not out of the ordinary for 18650 Li-ion cells. I've come across other Li-ion cells which have an internal resistance of less than 1m Ohm.

[ogden]

Yes, it's just basic (but pathetic) arse covering with the proliferation of 18650 in consumer gadgets.

In what sense pathetic? Much better than Samsung video in their battery safety page. Amazing that nobody here blames manufacturers of inherently unsafe vape devices.

Why just LG?

Samsung disclaimer:  "Samsung SDI’s RLIBC are not designed or manufactured for use in ANY vape or e-cigarette device.".

Sony disclaimer: "Sony has great concern for the safety of our consumers. We recently became aware that some people may use our cylindrical lithium-ion VTC battery cells ("Li-Ion Cells") in a way that Sony does not intend for them to be used: in eCigarettes and vape pens. Sony has not tested Li-Ion cells in eCigs and vape pens."

[edit] Speaking of pathetic arse covering - attach

[thm_w]

20m Ohm is not out of the ordinary for 18650 Li-ion cells. I've come across other Li-ion cells which have an internal resistance of less than 1m Ohm.

So the fact they they test with a 100mR shunt seems very relevant then. Lets say you have a 20mR cell:
Dead short test theoretically its dissipating: 882W in the battery
With 100mR added, its dissipating: 25W in the battery and 123W in the shunt

In the case of a 1mR cell that would be even worse.

[wraper]

Much better than Samsung video in their battery safety page.

Dunno why you think so. Maybe you judge by artistic value. Samsung video actually says about unprotected cells and explains why. LG video is simply scaremongering with little information.

[ogden]

Much better than Samsung video in their battery safety page.

Dunno why you think so. Maybe you judge by artistic value. Samsung video actually says about unprotected cells and explains why. LG video is simply scaremongering with little information.

Sufficiently enough information is said/shown after timer reaches 00:00 (quote): Handling bare cell places you at risk of severe injury. Consumers should never handle bare cell. Don't buy it, don't sell it.
[edit] Only necessary information to remember. Samsung video is too long and boring considering attention span of target audience

[wraper]

Only necessary information to remember. Samsung video is too long and boring considering attention span of target audience

Super ambiguous information which people won't trust and the reason why Louis made that video with zero understanding why that ad exists to begin with.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

-There's almost 2x more energy in an alkaline D cell (more than 20Wh) than in the best 18650 li-ion (less than 12Wh).
-Alkalines contain hydrogen that's flammable/explosive.

-Li-ion short circuit current is much higher due to its slightly lower internal resistance (*) and 2.5x higher V.
-Metallic lithium (in the anode) if in contact with (humid/moist) air oxidizes quite violently (catches fire/self ignites).

(*) It's the Li-Pos that have extremely low internal resistances, most canned 18650s are similar to alkaline D cells in that respect.

[EEVblog]

Yes, it's just basic (but pathetic) arse covering with the proliferation of 18650 in consumer gadgets.

In what sense pathetic? Much better than Samsung video in their battery safety page. Amazing that nobody here blames manufacturers of inherently unsafe vape devices.

Why just LG?

Samsung disclaimer:  "Samsung SDI’s RLIBC are not designed or manufactured for use in ANY vape or e-cigarette device.".

Sony disclaimer: "Sony has great concern for the safety of our consumers. We recently became aware that some people may use our cylindrical lithium-ion VTC battery cells ("Li-Ion Cells") in a way that Sony does not intend for them to be used: in eCigarettes and vape pens. Sony has not tested Li-Ion cells in eCigs and vape pens."

[edit] Speaking of pathetic arse covering - attach

Sony didn't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a highly produced scaremongering info-mercial that actually contains no real info.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

As for Rossmann, I don’t understand why people give him so much attention. He’s a whiny windbag with a chip on his shoulder.

Because he's right? (Right to Repair!)

In that 1984 commercial Apple was the beautiful woman but nowadays, Tim is the bad guy on the big screen. You'll change your mind wrt that company you love so much. It took me 29 years no more no less.

[Bud]

It was Jobs who introduced that tradition of appearance in a sloppy outfit  in front of a gigantic screen with a single word displayed, wasnt it.

[amyk]

Well... these are the results for testing new cells according to the UN38.3 regulations. These regulations also have requirements for the battery management systems.

BMS has nothing to do with those tests, which basically say that you can abuse the cells that much, and it may damage them, and they might even set fire to something else (something that can happen with any high-energy cell) but they should still not explode nor ignite themselves. If LG's cells don't pass those tests then they have some serious explaining to do.

Amazing that nobody here blames manufacturers of inherently unsafe vape devices.

If those vapes all used C or D cells, would companies like Energizer or Duracell write such disclaimers or produce fearmongering videos about it? LG brought it on themselves by trying to tightly control what should really be none of their business. Safety warnings and instructions for handling, yes. "stay away from our batteries", no.

Observe that Samsung and Sony's disclaimers are more level-headed and specifically targeted towards vapes, and that's likely only because of the threat of lawsuits mentioned before. Unlike LG, they still want you to buy their products.

[ogden]

Sony didn't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a highly produced scaremongering info-mercial that actually contains no real info.

If you think that message "Our _bare_ cells are not for consumer use" is not real info - fine. Let me ask: as an EE do you think that everything is fine with bare 18650 cells and products like vape devices that are designed to exclusively use such?

Observe that Samsung and Sony's disclaimers are more level-headed and specifically targeted towards vapes, and that's likely only because of the threat of lawsuits mentioned before. Unlike LG, they still want you to buy their products.

Right. 
Sony quote: "The Sony Li-Ion Cells are sold to manufacturers and meant to power products like power tools that contain certain safety precautions and mechanisms which meet our quality standards.".
Samsung quote: "DO NOT charge individual, cylindrical Lithium-Ion Batteries if you are a consumer or end-user."

[nctnico]

Well... these are the results for testing new cells according to the UN38.3 regulations. These regulations also have requirements for the battery management systems.

BMS has nothing to do with those tests, which basically say that you can abuse the cells that much, and it may damage them

Did you actually read the UN38.3? If you did you'd know that the BMS is an integral part of battery pack safety testing. Testing whether the cells withstand physical abuse is just one part of it.

[Siwastaja]

In other words, according to the datasheet, their cells should not be exploding or catching fire when subjected to those abuses, and those that do are defective....

Yes, the modern cell-level safety features are quite remarkable; in fact, I have "verified" all of the listed conditions on a few cells, and I haven't been able to produce a fire on a good-brand 18650 cell, ever. Including over-charging a cell with 30V, 10A supply for an hour or so. A bit of electrolyte smell is all I get.

However, there is something you miss: it's the rate of risk going up, as the layers of safety are being bypassed. These cell-level safety layers are good, but not perfectly reliable. They only exist for the worst case (BMS failure, mechanical failure of external case), and need to be cheap on production level. If you have thousands of cells being abused outside normal specifications, some may catastrophically fail, even if the datasheet specifies it shouldn't happen. You may also hit some strange combination of corner cases which isn't covered by the few standardized tests; the cell might comply to the standards, and still fail catastrophically, using a modified test with different parameters.

I'm against scaremongering, quite the opposite, I want to say, do whatever you want, the brand cells are quite robust against abuse. Just be aware that you are doing something not originally intended to be that way. Do it on purpose, understand there is a risk, however small, and be safe.

Also understand that a manufacturer needs to take a strong stance for such non-intended purpose, for legal reasons. Another option would be to provide protected cells and give consumer support for them; clearly, it's outside their core business.

Of course, producing an expensive PR video seems stupid at least, but companies do such things, maybe don't take it too seriously, keep using the cells as you wish.

[Cyberdragon]

Sony didn't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a highly produced scaremongering info-mercial that actually contains no real info.

If you think that message "Our _bare_ cells are not for consumer use" is not real info - fine. Let me ask: as an EE do you think that everything is fine with bare 18650 cells and products like vape devices that are designed to exclusively use such?

Observe that Samsung and Sony's disclaimers are more level-headed and specifically targeted towards vapes, and that's likely only because of the threat of lawsuits mentioned before. Unlike LG, they still want you to buy their products.

Right. 
Sony quote: "The Sony Li-Ion Cells are sold to manufacturers and meant to power products like power tools that contain certain safety precautions and mechanisms which meet our quality standards.".
Samsung quote: "DO NOT charge individual, cylindrical Lithium-Ion Batteries if you are a consumer or end-user."

To the technical persion, "bare cell" does mean unprotected and people shouldn't use unprotected cells unless they absolutely know what they are doing. However, LG make 0 attempts to explain "bare cell" vs "protected cell" to the layman, whereas Samsung do. The proper, informative message should be "don't buy unprotected cells" not "don't buy batteries, batteries bad, batteries explode, OMG, SCARY!" which is exactly what they say when they don't provide any explanation. That blankets all other devices besides vapes which are perfectly safe, whereas other companies are targeting vapes.

You know what can provide a hell of alot more current and can fit in your pocket (well, if it's big enough)? Those damn car jump packs, the cheap ones of which do have unprotected battery power straight to the output (through some diodes). Where's the scaremongering on those, huh? Don't tell me Joe Public aren't dumb enough to blow them up.

Another option would be to provide protected cells and give consumer support for them; clearly, it's outside their core business.

What companies should do vs what companies actually do. Their "core buisiness" is "SOLDER IN ALL THE CELLS, EVERYTHING MUST BE DISPOSABLE!" They don't like stuff like powerbanks, lights, and other devices with replaceable cells because it stops them from selling cells to the companies that make tons of disposable crap.

[tooki]

I’m a bit baffled at the sheer number of people here who are anti-safety. LG isn’t stopping you from buying cells. But this might help an electrically ignorant person avoid injury.

I think, frankly, that you should be ashamed of yourselves.

[Cyberdragon]

I’m a bit baffled at the sheer number of people here who are anti-safety. LG isn’t stopping you from buying cells. But this might help an electrically ignorant person avoid injury.

I think, frankly, that you should be ashamed of yourselves.

An electrically ignorant person is gonna stick their finger in a light socket anyway. Mains is way more dangerous than batteries.

[tszaboo]

I'm going with IECEX and ATEX. It applies for equipment, which can go into a oil refinery for example.
They dont allow most Li-ion, because it is exothermic.
If the battery passes IEC 62133-2, IEC 60086-4 or UL 1642, then it is safe to use (there are other 3 criteria, but thats not the point). Most batteries dont pass these tests.
The "no explosion no fire" means the battery was probably leaking. I dont think average Joe should handle lithium batteries. For some cells, just dropping it on the floor can cause an internal short circuit, and setting itself on fire, or spit hidroflouric acid into your eyes. Over discharging can damage the internals, and it can burst into flames when charged again.

[nctnico]

In other words, according to the datasheet, their cells should not be exploding or catching fire when subjected to those abuses, and those that do are defective....

Yes, the modern cell-level safety features are quite remarkable; in fact, I have "verified" all of the listed conditions on a few cells, and I haven't been able to produce a fire on a good-brand 18650 cell, ever. Including over-charging a cell with 30V, 10A supply for an hour or so. A bit of electrolyte smell is all I get.

You have been lucky. Over here the TUV banished battery testing to (disposable) portable units outside the main building after a battery pack caught fire during an overcharging test (their technician connected it wrong so the BMS couldn't prevent it).

[mark03]

I’m a bit baffled at the sheer number of people here who are anti-safety. LG isn’t stopping you from buying cells.

Aren't they?  I mean, it sure sounds to me like they make some effort along those lines, and if the issue of unsafe vaping devices "blows up" (pun intended) sufficiently, it may become more difficult to buy them.  As a hobbyist who has legitimate uses for unprotected 18650s, that does concern me.

[Siwastaja]

20m Ohm is not out of the ordinary for 18650 Li-ion cells. I've come across other Li-ion cells which have an internal resistance of less than 1m Ohm.

To get into the range, a "typical" power-optimized 18650 cell (for example, Samsung INR18650-25R) is around 25 mOhm and an energy-optimized one (e.g., Samsung INR18650-29E) is around 40 mOhm. But, this is at room temperature. As the cell heats up, the resistance drops even further, so for worst-case analysis, the current and power dissipation can be higher.

Larger cells of similar technology naturally have lower resistance and a truly large cell (in 50+Ah range) can indeed be sub-1mOhm.

You have been lucky.

Exactly the point; me testing a few cells doesn't prove much. These safety layers are not supposed to always save the day in 100% of cases. The cells have to be inexpensive, lightweight, etc. It's risk management, not ultimate minimization. Most things we do carry a risk of some magnitude.