Mandated "Advanced Driver Distraction Warning" in the EU

[thm_w]

Bought a new Hyundai Tucson hybrid in Canada with Advanced Driver Distraction Warning (ADDW) not long ago which is a real pain in the ass. It has a camera on the steering column and if we look away to long it starts beeping then automatically starts braking which is BS. The dealer claimed it could be disabled but I have yet to find where the setting is.

https://www.hyundai-forums.com/threads/driver-attention-warning.718297/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic#post-6312721
It does sound like a very poorly implemented system, that does not mean all other manufacturers are the same.

And besides the fun, there can be moments where having more acceleration makes a vehicle safer.  For instance, if you emerge out of a junction here, do you prefer a car that can get to the speed limit (70 mph) in ~13 seconds, or one that can do it in ~6 seconds?  The quicker you accelerate, the less of a danger you are to other traffic travelling at mainline speed.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/6AeMu2Ew8REwqfkU7

The solution to that would be to limit speed and acceleration when you are near an obstacle or around people.
Its a common occurrence here for high end SUVs to drive through restaurant/shop windows because they hit reverse instead of forward. Zero reason to have full power available when in a parking lot.

[tom66]

The solution to that would be to limit speed and acceleration when you are near an obstacle or around people.
Its a common occurrence here for high end SUVs to drive through restaurant/shop windows because they hit reverse instead of forward. Zero reason to have full power available when in a parking lot.

Perhaps that will become available eventually.  Certainly something like a Tesla Autopilot seems to be context sensitive and understand what type of acceleration is appropriate.  But computationally it's a hard problem to solve.  Merely having a database of GPS regions isn't enough - there will be errors and it won't be kept up to date.  And, sometimes there are moments where it's not appropriate to accelerate promptly like if a road has been turned into a busy market on every Sunday but it's a normal road every other day of the week. 

I think if we're able to solve that problem then self-driving is not far away, so arguably it isn't even needed.

[Berni]

At some point the line has to be drawn for protecting people from stupidity.
The driver is responsible for the car and will always be able to cause damage or harm when used wrong enough.

Not that i wish people to get hurt, but at some point a stricter safety protocol starts getting in the way of responsible users just to protect some small fraction of idiots. There is the saying "make something fool proof and someone else will make a better fool" so it is just an arms race of how safe you can make something against how wrong someone might try to use it (and eventually defeat your safety).

That's how we went from car user manuals explaining how to tune the ignition timing and idle rpm, onto these days explaining not to drink the contents of the battery.

[grx]

Definitely.

Also remember friends, no camera is immune to a small patch of masking tape, especially in YOUR car.

[Jeroen3]

If you block this camera, or the camera looking to the road, it will beep at you continuously.
This is already the case in mercedes.

[sparkydonkey]

a bit similar to the general topic of this thread..

I forgot what car it was but once Magnum P.I. (yes that tv series from USA) tried to use what looked like a 1980-1990's kind of hatchback car.  it had some kind of dashboard voice that kept chirping about seatbelt being off then he got out of the car for it to then chirp "hatch is open" etc .. up to till he finally found the fusebox under the hood and disconnected the power to that annoying voice box

[langwadt]

a bit similar to the general topic of this thread..

I forgot what car it was but once Magnum P.I. (yes that tv series from USA) tried to use what looked like a 1980-1990's kind of hatchback car.  it had some kind of dashboard voice that kept chirping about seatbelt being off then he got out of the car for it to then chirp "hatch is open" etc .. up to till he finally found the fusebox under the hood and disconnected the power to that annoying voice box

marginally related, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_255

crashed right after takeoff because they forgot  flaps and slats, the alarm system that should have alerted them had no power

anonymous pilots said that sometimes pilots would pull the breaker for the alarm because it keep sounding while taxiing 

[grx]

well a public transport vehicle has very different role than a private car. responsibilities, reliability expectations, etc. monitoring systems are entirely normal here.

If you block this camera, or the camera looking to the road, it will beep at you continuously.
This is already the case in mercedes.

I trust the creativity of people. Unless the raw data stream from the camera is digitally signed, it can be replaced by a static image injected from a device. A bit of scotch tape on the beeper will also go a long way.

For me a car is a movable extension of my home. it's a motor on wheels with a protective case for the occupants. I want to have full control on it and no one is allowed to access it unless I authorize it.

All this modern fuss is entirely optional and thats basically abuse from manufacturers that want to believe that a car is a smartphone. But nope. Not in my world.

[SteveThackery]

All this modern fuss is entirely optional and thats basically abuse from manufacturers that want to believe that a car is a smartphone. But nope. Not in my world.

But doesn't that mean that you are forever stuck with buying increasingly older cars?

[grx]

That is a big problem for me, yes, I know, and I have no solution for now.

My car is 10 years old for now, but I'm quite afraid of what I will get for the next one.

[KE5FX]

But doesn't that mean that you are forever stuck with buying increasingly older cars?

We're just entering an era where cars suck.  They happen every so often -- the 1970s come to mind -- and then they end. 

I plan to stick with what I have as long as possible.  Failing that, I'll refrain from buying any cars with ADAS features 'smarter' than basic active cruise control.  Until they really are capable of genuine self-driving... meaning none of this crap is my problem. 

Or until I'm too old to drive, whichever comes first.  I hesitate to speculate.

[SteveThackery]

That is a big problem for me, yes, I know, and I have no solution for now.

My car is 10 years old for now, but I'm quite afraid of what I will get for the next one.

I think the late '90s and early 2000s were the pinnacle of car manufacturing. Quality peaked, all the major features were in place. Since then we have seen slow and steady cost reductions with very little innovation until EVs became a significant market sector. The only significant advances I can think of that came after the period I mentioned were connectivity-related, such as Bluetooth integration between your phone and the car. There was some of that around the turn of the century, but it was crude and typically only worked with specific models of mobile phones.

My Lexus LS430 is 22 years old (2004) and has more features than many modern cars (excepting the crappy Bluetooth). I also have a 1953 Riley which has not a single semiconductor junction anywhere in the whole car. 😄

[UnijunctionTransistor]

But doesn't that mean that you are forever stuck with buying increasingly older cars?

We're just entering an era where cars suck.  They happen every so often -- the 1970s come to mind -- and then they end. 

Malaise Era rev 2.0

[tom66]

That is a big problem for me, yes, I know, and I have no solution for now.

My car is 10 years old for now, but I'm quite afraid of what I will get for the next one.

I think the late '90s and early 2000s were the pinnacle of car manufacturing. Quality peaked, all the major features were in place. Since then we have seen slow and steady cost reductions with very little innovation until EVs became a significant market sector. The only significant advances I can think of that came after the period I mentioned were connectivity-related, such as Bluetooth integration between your phone and the car. There was some of that around the turn of the century, but it was crude and typically only worked with specific models of mobile phones.

My Lexus LS430 is 22 years old (2004) and has more features than many modern cars (excepting the crappy Bluetooth). I also have a 1953 Riley which has not a single semiconductor junction anywhere in the whole car. 😄

I would make a similar argument for 2010's up to about 2018.  I had a Mk7 Golf GTE and still miss that car.  I wish VW took a platform like that and made an EV (with a decent-sized battery, so not e-Golf sorry).  The ID.3 is a nice car but the interior quality is crappy and the touchscreen/touch controls are terrible, real miss in the design there.

[SteveThackery]

I would make a similar argument for 2010's up to about 2018.

I think that date range would be hard to justify. In the world of automotive engineering, the sweet spot seems to be 1995 to 2005. By 2005 all the technology of any consequence was in place. Since 2005, almost nothing new has been implemented and all the development effort has gone into cost reduction.

Here is what was in place by 2004, when my car was built:

ABS
airbags
traction control
electronic engine management
closed-loop emission control
fuel injection
trip computers
climate control
infotainment systems (admittedly a bit primitive back in 2004)
built-in satnav
touchscreens
built-in mobile phone
cameras
radar systems
semi-active, variable height suspension systems
keyless entry
200,000 mile engine life
20+ year rust protection
voice control of car functions
active crash protection
and my favourite - soft-close doors

EDIT:
electric drivetrains
hybrid electric drivetrains

Your challenge is to come up with a similarly compelling list for 2004 to 2024. 😁

I'll start you off:

electronically-controlled handbrake with (thanks, @monkeh)
anti-rollback

[Monkeh]

Your challenge is to come up with a similarly compelling list for 2004 to 2024. 😁

Affordability.

I'll start you off:

electronically-controlled handbrake with anti-rollback

These are two different things, and the former is a negative.

[themadhippy]

surely the height of in-car technology has to go to the 1980's  maestro that told you to "please fasten your seatbelt" and  its futuristic digital dashboard.

[SteveThackery]

Affordability.

We're talking about technological advancements. But I've already said that the only significant change since the mid-2000s has been cost reduction.

electronically-controlled handbrake with anti-rollback

These are two different things, and the former is a negative.

Well, you can implement one without the other, but it's rarely done. Once you've got an electronic handbrake, anti-rollback is just a software tweak.

[Monkeh]

electronically-controlled handbrake with anti-rollback

These are two different things, and the former is a negative.

Well, you can implement one without the other, but it's rarely done. Once you've got an electronic handbrake, anti-rollback is just a software tweak.

Actually, you've got it quite the other way round. You could implement it with the parking brake, but you don't. Electronic parking brakes are motor driven - they take multiple seconds to engage and disengage. Meanwhile, the service brake, which is hydraulic, is already applied, and can be applied and released, in practical terms, instantaneously. The ABS module merely maintains brake pressure and releases it as you apply power to move off.

[tom66]

Actually, you've got it quite the other way round. You could implement it with the parking brake, but you don't. Electronic parking brakes are motor driven - they take multiple seconds to engage and disengage. Meanwhile, the service brake, which is hydraulic, is already applied, and can be applied and released, in practical terms, instantaneously. The ABS module merely maintains brake pressure and releases it as you apply power to move off.

The reason cars use the service brake for hill hold is more to do with application of the required braking pressure to make the vehicle set off more gently.  The park brake is on or off, and if you release it, the motor has to apply torque immediately, which can result in rollback and wheelspin.  If you use the service brake, a control system can regulate the brake pressure and electric motor torque to eliminate rollback.

EPB on both of my EVs is instantaneous.  I wouldn't say several seconds, I'd say more like 200ms, at most.

[Monkeh]

EPB on both of my EVs is instantaneous.  I wouldn't say several seconds, I'd say more like 200ms, at most.

Is it, or is it covering with other mechanisms? Everything I've driven with one has been annoyingly slow, among other issues.

[CatalinaWOW]

I generally like the idea of these safety and driver assistance features.  But as several of the anecdotes mentioned in this thread point out, the concept and the implementation can vary widely.  I have two cars with these features and both irritate the hell out of me at times.  I live in a mountainous area and the roads are very twisty.  The column mounted cameras checking my alertness are often blocked by my forearms as I negotiate one corner after another.  Resulting in frequent buzzes and warnings that it can't see me and determine that I am awake.   Seems like the vehicle could monitor the fact that the steering and often the brake and throttle are being actively used and back off on the nattering.  The reality is a distraction that can't help driving safety.

[tom66]

EPB on both of my EVs is instantaneous.  I wouldn't say several seconds, I'd say more like 200ms, at most.

Is it, or is it covering with other mechanisms? Everything I've driven with one has been annoyingly slow, among other issues.

It's effectively instant as far as I am concerned.

Test setup would be car in park and shift to drive and press accelerator pedal, I can be moving in 1 second, maybe less.  Of course such a move is generally ill-advised, you should check your mirrors and blind spot before setting off as my driving instructor told me.  But in any case if it was an emergency situation I don't think the park brake will be the reason you could not drive off quickly.

The ID.3 is rear wheel drive and the park brake is on the rear too (two independent rear wheel actuators, this is for redundancy as it doesn't have a parking pawl).  So it couldn't drive if it wanted to, if the rear brake was still applied.  These motors unwind pretty quickly. 

[SteveThackery]

Electronic parking brakes are motor driven - they take multiple seconds to engage and disengage.

No they don't! But you are right and I made a mistake: anti-rollback is normally done by holding the brake fluid pressure. Thanks for correcting me.

But this is off topic. @tom66's (light-hearted) challenge is to come up with a list of post-2005 technical innovations comparable with my pre-2005 list. To remind you, I asserted that very little innovation in cars has happened in the past 20 years; it has mostly been about continuously driving down the costs.

If you're thinking of including EVs, then of course both full EVs and hybrid EVs predate 2005. I wasn't going to include EVs because in many ways they are a separate technology.

[tom66]

Post 2004 improvements? 

Let's see:

Anti-collision radar that can detect almost every type of forward collision event (requires LKAS camera)
Lane keep assistance (love it or hate it)
Speed limit recognition and sign warning
360 degree cameras (all around parking view)
Advanced suspension, e.g. active dampers that respond to road conditions and driver input
Vehicle-to-X technology (detect stopped vehicles well ahead of radar, integrate with traffic light timing, etc.)
SOS/integrated e-Call with crash detection and backup battery (calls emergency services in the event of a severe accident, now standard on all cars)
Side collision radar (blind spot assist) - introduced in 2005 by Volvo, standard in higher trims from 2010-ish
Automatic parking function incl. parallel and bay parking
Apple CarPlay/Android Auto (better than integrated satnav in my opinion)
LED headlamps  (love them or hate them)
Automatic headlights with dip/high beam assist (uses LKAS camera)
Matrix LED headlamps (uses LKAS camera)
Rear brake assist (stops car if you're reversing at low speed and sensors indicate a collision risk, standard on most cars now)
Reversing cameras (now standard on most cars, legal requirement in US/Canada)
Driver attention detection (with or without camera) (love it or hate it)

For EVs specifically:

Rapid charging that actually competes with petrol refill times
Larger batteries and range (Nissan Leaf 2012: 24kWh standard.  2026 Nissan Leaf  52kWh standard, 75kWh option.  2026 Nissan Micra EV has 40kWh standard and 52kWh option.  Launch price for Micra is 50% lower in real terms than the Leaf.)
Greater net efficiency due to aero optimisations, e.g. active louvers
Pre-cooling/pre-heating on demand e.g. via phone app (excellent in winter, also good in summer!)
Integration of EVs with power grid allowing for dynamic load control/virtual power plant concept
Vehicle to Load/Grid
Edit:  Heatpump instead of resistive heating, for e.g. Tesla Model 3 also heat pump from/to drive unit/battery as needed