Mandated "Advanced Driver Distraction Warning" in the EU

[SteveThackery]

Great list - thanks.

I disagree with only a few, although I would say that some are just logical developments of existing technology. Of course, that could be a debate in itself.

Active and semi-active suspension is old hat and predates 2004 by a long way. Reversing cameras are also old hat - you can't have either of those! 😁

Yes to lane keep assistance, automatic parking, and actually I think there is a whole new category here: autonomous functions, where the car can take over the steering and braking. Little or none of that before 2004. And, of course, LED headlamps - I'd forgotten about those.

The new speed limit recognition is an interesting one - there are many reports of poor performance, and it is a pretty challenging target, I would say.

I enjoy watching the automatic headlights on my sis-in-law's BMW.  When you come up close to the car in front, the headlights diverge, leaving a darker spot in the middle so you don't dazzle the driver. It's fun watching the auto-dip function on an open road as a car in the distance comes towards you. First, the right hand (in the UK) headlight diverges to the right so it doesn't dazzle the oncoming driver. As the car gets closer the headlight moves further and further to the right. Once it can move no further it extinguishes the main beam and switches to a dipped beam, at which point it motors back to the normal forward-facing position.

When you are driving along a twisting country lane it's fascinating to watch the beams - they are constantly moving around in response to the road ahead, the driver inputs and the car's attitude. Fantastic technology, I think, but devastatingly expensive to fix, I expect.

Thanks for joining in the game, @tom66! 👍👍👍

[tom66]

Active and semi-active suspension is old hat and predates 2004 by a long way.

I'd say the technology has developed considerably since, with suspension systems being integrated into the ESP system, actively improving the stability of the car whilst making it more pleasurable to drive.

Reversing cameras are also old hat - you can't have either of those! 😁

Well, perhaps, but not in anywhere near the form we have nowadays.  The Audi I've got on loan right now shows the backup lines curving with the steering wheel, and also can show you two different ranges for the backup camera (I think it's just a sensor crop selection, but it clearly has a high resolution sensor to be able to do this).  Plus it actually works at night, unlike the one I had on a Golf a while back.  So, call it an evolution, I guess.

The new speed limit recognition is an interesting one - there are many reports of poor performance, and it is a pretty challenging target, I would say. 

I think I'd rather have it than not - but you take it like an additional form of information.  Usually when I drive I have Google Maps telling me the limit, the car, and my own eyes.  If 2/3 agree, I'll take that as the limit.  If disagreement is present from all three, the eyes win - but caution abound in case I missed a change.   This is only in cases where a change in limit might be missed.  It's normally not an issue, but useful to have.

When the speed limit information prevents a car from accelerating, or sets the ACC, I have a problem with it.

When you are driving along a twisting country lane it's fascinating to watch the beams - they are constantly moving around in response to the road ahead, the driver inputs and the car's attitude. Fantastic technology, I think, but devastatingly expensive to fix, I expect.

The systems with actuators in the headlights are no doubt very expensive but the modern approach is an LED pixel array, a common resolution is 32 x 32 "pixels", which can literally block out the oncoming vehicle whilst illuminating the rest of the space.  In this case, they actually cost only a little bit more than regular headlamps.  I could see matrix LED headlamps becoming standard in the next decade, at least on anything above the base model.   It only requires the LKAS camera to provide information on where oncoming vehicles are, so it's essentially a slightly more complex LED array plus a bit of software.  I'd be surprised if it costs more than 100 euros to add to a car when you already have the camera.

The really high end cars can literally use the headlamps like DLP projectors (might be actually using a DLP chip inside each headlamp).  I'd argue this is far beyond what is actually needed, and is mostly a vanity feature.    https://youtu.be/watch?v=hDJi240E_ZA

[tooki]

Reversing cameras are also old hat - you can't have either of those! 😁

Well, perhaps, but not in anywhere near the form we have nowadays.  The Audi I've got on loan right now shows the backup lines curving with the steering wheel, and also can show you two different ranges for the backup camera (I think it's just a sensor crop selection, but it clearly has a high resolution sensor to be able to do this).  Plus it actually works at night, unlike the one I had on a Golf a while back.  So, call it an evolution, I guess.

Ones that work at night and the curving backup lines have been around for a LONG time. Those are not new features to in any way. So we definitely had them in the form we know today. It was just in luxury cars at first, like most features in cars. They eventually trickle down to the mass market.

[CatalinaWOW]

Reversing cameras are also old hat - you can't have either of those! 😁

Well, perhaps, but not in anywhere near the form we have nowadays.  The Audi I've got on loan right now shows the backup lines curving with the steering wheel, and also can show you two different ranges for the backup camera (I think it's just a sensor crop selection, but it clearly has a high resolution sensor to be able to do this).  Plus it actually works at night, unlike the one I had on a Golf a while back.  So, call it an evolution, I guess.

Ones that work at night and the curving backup lines have been around for a LONG time. Those are not new features to in any way. So we definitely had them in the form we know today. It was just in luxury cars at first, like most features in cars. They eventually trickle down to the mass market.

I think it is fair to use wide availability as the standard of measure.  Making it cheap and reliable enough to use everywhere requires innovation and sometimes legislation.  Examples of features that were available on one or two models far earlier than their widespread adoption include:

Disc brakes - first available in the 1930s, widespread adoption in the late fifties and full usage not until nineties.
Fuel injection - first available in the 1930s, widespread adoption in the late eighties to early nineties
Power windows - first available in the fifties, universal by the eighties.
Automatic transmissions - first available in the thirties, widespread adoption in fifties and full penetration at the turn of the century.
Moving map navigation systems - available in the forties to fifties, widespread in the nineties.

Other things have taken one basic idea and incrementally improved it over the years until the end result is hardly the same category.  Cruise control for example.  It started somewhere around a hundred years ago as a simple screw lock on the throttle.  Then sometime around the fifties it became a full servo system around speed.  Another fifty years and adaptive cruise control starts appearing, adding distance to the car ahead to the servo loop.  Now several models add lane following though it is generally requires hands touching the steering wheel periodically and is limited to well marked major highways.    Some models even through in lane changing to maintain speed on similar roads.    In a case like this where to you draw the line and say a new feature has been introduced?  Something more than a bell and whistle on the existing capability.

[SteveThackery]

The systems with actuators in the headlights are no doubt very expensive but the modern approach is an LED pixel array, a common resolution is 32 x 32 "pixels", which can literally block out the oncoming vehicle whilst illuminating the rest of the space. 

I learned that even this system is old hat! The latest systems use a powerful laser aimed at a phosphor surface, which glows brighter than an LED can and provides even more precise control of the projected beam.

[mtwieg]

Adaptive driving beam (ADB) is pretty interesting. Here in the US it's extremely rare due to domestic laws, but I was surprised to find out it's apparently common in the EU.

When you are driving along a twisting country lane it's fascinating to watch the beams - they are constantly moving around in response to the road ahead, the driver inputs and the car's attitude. Fantastic technology, I think, but devastatingly expensive to fix, I expect.

The systems with actuators in the headlights are no doubt very expensive but the modern approach is an LED pixel array, a common resolution is 32 x 32 "pixels", which can literally block out the oncoming vehicle whilst illuminating the rest of the space.  In this case, they actually cost only a little bit more than regular headlamps.

By "headlamp" are you referring to the actual LEDs themselves, or the entire headlight assembly? My understanding is that for ADB headlights, individual components in the headlight assembly can't be repaired or replaced, the entire assembly must be replaced. This goes for headlights based on moving lamps/mirrors, or "matrix LED" types. Google suggests that the cost of these assemblies are orders of magnitude greater than a replaceable bulb or COB (like >$2000USD per assembly). And that repair has to come with some sort of calibration routine which can only be done with specialized tools and software from the OEM...

[langwadt]

Adaptive driving beam (ADB) is pretty interesting. Here in the US it's extremely rare due to domestic laws, but I was surprised to find out it's apparently common in the EU.

When you are driving along a twisting country lane it's fascinating to watch the beams - they are constantly moving around in response to the road ahead, the driver inputs and the car's attitude. Fantastic technology, I think, but devastatingly expensive to fix, I expect.

The systems with actuators in the headlights are no doubt very expensive but the modern approach is an LED pixel array, a common resolution is 32 x 32 "pixels", which can literally block out the oncoming vehicle whilst illuminating the rest of the space.  In this case, they actually cost only a little bit more than regular headlamps.

By "headlamp" are you referring to the actual LEDs themselves, or the entire headlight assembly? My understanding is that for ADB headlights, individual components in the headlight assembly can't be repaired or replaced, the entire assembly must be replaced. This goes for headlights based on moving lamps/mirrors, or "matrix LED" types. Google suggests that the cost of these assemblies are orders of magnitude greater than a replaceable bulb or COB (like >$2000USD per assembly). And that repair has to come with some sort of calibration routine which can only be done with specialized tools and software from the OEM...

and being so expensive they are probably OTP locked to a certain car to avoid a market for stolen ones, so used might not be an option

[tom66]

The systems with actuators in the headlights are no doubt very expensive but the modern approach is an LED pixel array, a common resolution is 32 x 32 "pixels", which can literally block out the oncoming vehicle whilst illuminating the rest of the space. 

I learned that even this system is old hat! The latest systems use a powerful laser aimed at a phosphor surface, which glows brighter than an LED can and provides even more precise control of the projected beam.

There was certainly a time when laser headlights were big but as far as I know (besides some really high end cars) the standard offering now is LED matrix.  Laser headlights have significant complexities because you have to make them eye safe in the event of damage, a 10W blue laser pointing out of your car headlights would be literally a bad look.

[KE5FX]

That'll clear those douchebags out of the passing lane... 

[tom66]

By "headlamp" are you referring to the actual LEDs themselves, or the entire headlight assembly? My understanding is that for ADB headlights, individual components in the headlight assembly can't be repaired or replaced, the entire assembly must be replaced. This goes for headlights based on moving lamps/mirrors, or "matrix LED" types. Google suggests that the cost of these assemblies are orders of magnitude greater than a replaceable bulb or COB (like >$2000USD per assembly). And that repair has to come with some sort of calibration routine which can only be done with specialized tools and software from the OEM...

They are quite expensive new, but for both of my cars a replacement headlight (with or without matrix function) is around ~£200, which is hardly devastating in the event of random failure.

[Berni]

Would be nice to know on what car that is then.

It can sometimes cost 200 bucks just to fix a single xenon headlight if the driver electronics blow up. For the fancy new LED feature packed headlights it usually means changing the entire headlight and that tends to cost in the low thousands. Maybe if the car is old and popular enough you might be able to pick up a used headlight from a scrapped car and that might be a more sensible price.

[tom66]

Would be nice to know on what car that is then.

It can sometimes cost 200 bucks just to fix a single xenon headlight if the driver electronics blow up. For the fancy new LED feature packed headlights it usually means changing the entire headlight and that tends to cost in the low thousands. Maybe if the car is old and popular enough you might be able to pick up a used headlight from a scrapped car and that might be a more sensible price.

Both VW ID.3 and Polestar 2.
The cars are about 4-5 years old.

I think the reality is supply outdoes demand, there's enough wrecked cars out there that there are headlights going spare on used market, and not that many failure since broadly they are well designed.

[langwadt]

Would be nice to know on what car that is then.

It can sometimes cost 200 bucks just to fix a single xenon headlight if the driver electronics blow up. For the fancy new LED feature packed headlights it usually means changing the entire headlight and that tends to cost in the low thousands. Maybe if the car is old and popular enough you might be able to pick up a used headlight from a scrapped car and that might be a more sensible price.

Both VW ID.3 and Polestar 2.
The cars are about 4-5 years old.

I think the reality is supply outdoes demand, there's enough wrecked cars out there that there are headlights going spare on used market, and not that many failure since broadly they are well designed.

and you'll need someone with official ODIS/GeKo access to put it in a different car

[tom66]

and you'll need someone with official ODIS/GeKo access to put it in a different car

Haven't looked at the Polestar, but in the case of the ID.3 no, it's just plug and play.

https://www.vw-id3.com/vehicle_electrics_electrical_system_lights_lamps_switches_outside_led_matrix_headlight-1757.html#removing_and_installing_headlight

[langwadt]

and you'll need someone with official ODIS/GeKo access to put it in a different car

Haven't looked at the Polestar, but in the case of the ID.3 no, it's just plug and play.

https://www.vw-id3.com/vehicle_electrics_electrical_system_lights_lamps_switches_outside_led_matrix_headlight-1757.html#removing_and_installing_headlight

that is just the physical part, it will almost certainly trigger "component protection" and need to be married to the new VIN with official VW tools