Author Topic: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.  (Read 47125 times)

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Offline cdev

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Offline JoeO

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #176 on: January 06, 2018, 04:23:27 am »
Anyone thinking that all of this seem a bit complicated and weird, it should be pointed out that nowadays, the encryption on a laptop (some of it I guess) can be broken from recording and analyzing the noise patterns coming from the laptop when measuring the sound with a recording device close by. Pretty obscure stuff.
Do you have a link? I think that's the kind of side channel attack that gets a fair bit of attention in regards to mitigation. Of course, an infected laptop could send out intentional sounds or signals that can be used to break encryption. That's a given, but you need to have a foothold already and in those cases you generally have more effective methods to extract data.
I think this is the link you are looking for:
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/10/how-soviets-used-ibm-selectric-keyloggers-to-spy-on-us-diplomats/
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Offline JoeO

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #177 on: January 06, 2018, 04:27:27 am »
The ironic thing is that while this is may cause a brief hit to Intel's rep, in the end it probably means selling a whole bunch of new chips. 

And new computer sales for Apple, HP, Dell,  etc, etc. which means new sales for storage, memory and other peripheral makers...

Based on the stocks reaction today, I think the market may be coming to realize this.

Maybe they can just make all computers disposable with a 1 year shelf life - that'll  keep the tech market pumping... ::)
I think that right now, no one will be buying Intel laptops or desktops.  Why buy a defective product?
As soon as the bugs are fixed in the hardware sales will resume.

This could also mean there will be great sales on Intel Ls and Ds now until the defective stock is cleared out.
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #178 on: January 06, 2018, 04:45:12 am »
I think that right now, no one will be buying Intel laptops or desktops.  Why buy a defective product?
As soon as the bugs are fixed in the hardware sales will resume.

This could also mean there will be great sales on Intel Ls and Ds now until the defective stock is cleared out.
The same might apply to AMD and even ARM. The coming months or even years might be a nightmare for all of them, as a lot of people are going to wait for new silicon to arrive and that could be a matter of years. No easy fixes here, you need an actual change of architecture, albeit not the whole architecture. Almost all hardware currently out there, and certainly Intel hardware, has suddenly lost a significant part of its value. As soon as fixed processors arrive, why knows what happens. They might be considered scrap and the prices for the new stuff might go through the roof. You don't really want to replace all of your infrastructure, but you also don't really want to be the one to explain why you're still running outdated hardware. The only real difference with software patches is that this costs a lot more money.

That'd actually be a fairly horrific scenario, if Intel and AMD get rewarded for having serious issues in the hardware.
 

Offline timb

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #179 on: January 06, 2018, 04:55:57 am »
If the new CPU is sufficiently powerful you could do dynamic translation between x86 and the new architecture, or even outright emulate the x86 for legacy code. The former method could run with only a 10-15% drop in performance for most applications. Anything performance oriented would obviously be recompiled for the new architecture relatively quickly.

So, I don’t think legacy applications are what’s keeping x86 around.

In fact, Apple has undergone this very transition. Twice. They went M68k -> PPC -> x86. It was done both time by incorporating a dynamic translation engine into the OS, along with implementing fat binaries for new software (which would contain both PPC and x86 machine code in the same binary, allowing them to natively execute on either architecture). This worked pretty well for them both times.

(Technically there was a third major transition as well, the one between Mac OS Classic and Mac OS X. They literally replaced the entire OS with one that was completely different. The only bridge between them, software wise, was the Carbon API, created specifically for the purpose. Non-Carbon apps could still be run in OS X via the Classic Environment, which ran a full install of Mac OS 9 in what was, in essence, a bare metal virtual machine. OS/2 used a similar concept. Frankly Microsoft should have used this approach with NT and gotten rid of all the old Windows 9x/3.11 cruft altogether.)
The difference is that Microsoft is used much more in professional and corporate settings. Keeping things ultra backwards compatible is part of why they have the market share that they do. Their corporate customers don't like rocking the boat in major way. There's a reason that most of the changes made to Windows 10 can be turned off in the Enterprise and Server editions.

You can’t really get more backward compatible than running the entire legacy OS in a virtual machine though. In fact, with current versions of Windows, when you try to run a legacy application don’t you essentially download an entire copy of XP that runs in a VM?

Keeping things ultra backwards compatible is also the reason Windows became a security nightmare. All for the benefit of a minority of their customers.
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #180 on: January 06, 2018, 05:07:02 am »
You can’t really get more backward compatible than running the entire legacy OS in a virtual machine though. In fact, with current versions of Windows, when you try to run a legacy application don’t you essentially download an entire copy of XP that runs in a VM?

Keeping things ultra backwards compatible is also the reason Windows became a security nightmare. All for the benefit of a minority of their customers.
I think you'd be surprised how much of the world is dependent on things like these. There's plenty of banks and similar critical institutions that run much older software, stuck together with tape and prayers of greybeards, which absolutely critical to the well being of entire nations.

It's also not just single machines. It's entire networks and how they interact. There practically never is a point where you throw it all in the bin and start from fresh. You are always building on the choices and mistakes from the past, trying to patch just enough holes to keep things afloat. As I've stated before, the ideas our current software is based on are inherently dated, but the attacks levelled against them are not. The average hardware and software in the field cannot be anything else than behind the curve.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #181 on: January 06, 2018, 06:12:23 am »
This is a colorful image but it doesn't sound very realistic.

>stuck together with tape and prayers of greybeards, which absolutely critical to the well being of entire nations.

Huge sums of money are transferred in and out of stocks in countries in microseconds.

Huge fortunes can be made and countries future earnings for decades lost in less time than it takes to wash one's hands of the crime.
I don't think I have much to gain from trying to convince you, though I will point out I was pretty much spot on last time you doubted me in this thread. Considering all the, let's call them theories you subscribe to, it both surprises and amuses me you've picked this one to question.

Obviously, stock trading isn't quite the same as the banking system, and the fact that an old and crumbling highway handles huge amounts of traffic isn't reason to relax and sit back. I'd say it's quite the opposite.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #182 on: January 06, 2018, 06:19:08 am »
Oh, what the hey, I'll throw another one in the hat. I think Reuters can be considered a trustworthy source, right?

“Some of the software I wrote for banks in the 1970s is still being used,” said Hinshaw."

"He says banks have a mistaken view of technology. “Banks in the last century all held the view: ‘If ain’t broken, don’t touch it.’ So they had all these core processing systems for deposit accounts and payments that, once built, were never touched again. They were just maintained. This made sense in the past, because building core processing systems cost a lot of money, in terms of development and hardware. “Over the years, the systems were cemented in place by new developments around them, such as ATMs and callcentres. By the time the internet came around, the cement was so thick that internet banking was just added making the cement more like granite rock.”

"The risk is “not so much that an individual may have retired,” Andrew Starrs, group technology officer at consulting firm Accenture PLC, said. “He may have expired, so there is no option to get him or her to come back.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-banks-cobol/banks-scramble-to-fix-old-systems-as-it-cowboys-ride-into-sunset-idUSKBN17C0D8
http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240212567/Big-banks-legacy-IT-systems-could-kill-them
 

Offline Decoman

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #183 on: January 06, 2018, 06:19:16 am »
Microsoft seem to have a support page for an update, but then they write this below:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4072698/windows-server-guidance-to-protect-against-the-speculative-execution

Q1: I wasn’t offered the Windows security updates that were released on January 3, 2018. What should I do?

A1: To help avoid adversely affecting customer devices, the Windows security updates that were released on January 3, 2018, have not been offered to all customers. For details, see Microsoft Knowledge Base Article 4072699.


Edit: I am not 100% sure but I think I saw something on twitter having indicating that your antivirus software might be problematic re. new updates. Unsure.
Edit2: Ah, maybe related to the following link from Microsoft:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4072699 ("Important: Windows security updates released January 3, 2018, and antivirus software")
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 07:35:01 am by Decoman »
 

Offline Decoman

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #184 on: January 06, 2018, 06:33:49 am »
Linus Torvald called it out:"Why is this all done without any configuration options? A *competent* CPU engineer would fix this by making sure speculation doesn't happen across protection domains. Maybe even a L1 I$ that is keyed by CPL. https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/1/3/797

I want to see compartmentalized software and hardware. I for one do not trust Linus and  I do not want to the type of idea that Linus Torvald is said to have said here by having lots of configuration options. I am no expert, but I would think that with optional parameters, an accidental, or, ill-willed toggle of an option can make an adversary easily abuse your computer. Why not just remove that possibility of abusing built in parameters by making sensibly sized modular code? It seems obvious that software ought to be more monolithic, such that the piece of software is compiled to your needs, but also that one ought to be able to authenticate and recognize if a piece of software is:

1) properly coded (not a single instance of there being an omission of a ; character in the code for example, NOR, a single instance of there being a superfluous character in the code)
2) has the features you want and nothing more (at least as per the official guide)
3) Is secure against tampering (presumably, something that could be verified by means of some kind of authentication)

Afaik, one example of parameters being known to have been abused, is the fall back option of export ciphers using something called 'Dual EC DRBG', in which this patently flawed piece of crypto ended up being used by some, for "secuirty". The 'Dual Elliptic Curve Deterministic Random Bit Generator)' is also known as being a standard that was pushed by NIST, apparently after having been paid some millions of dollars by NSA, where one is now speculating that NSA paid NIST to have a vulnerability/backdoor built into computers/software.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_EC_DRBG

If there is something I've learned about cryptography, it is that there are certain things you must not have in your implemented cipher code design for sake of security, things like: a seed number acting as as hidden initialization vector for some piece of crypto math, hidden patterns, hardcoded numbers, dynamic numbers that reflect the date and mimicking other known data values, "home brewed crypto ciphers", and ofc, any other "up your sleeve" type of math/numbers. So far, the ideal is afaik one way functions, in which an error in just 1 bit is enough to transmute a cipher text into a seemingly random stream of 0's and 1's, and using prime numbers is afaik one way to do this to avoid trivial factorization of numbers, when also scaled to take into account what kind of computing power is required to scramble an encrypted message sufficiently, to not be decrypted in the next 10-20-50-100 years.

I think that at the very least, a secure method of communicating between a website is required, and even better if there are other ideas to authenticate valid webpages, code and software supposed to having been downloaded from a trusted supplier.

I personally think it would be a nice idea, if only naively here, to get to have software (code) turned into hardware, which you then can put checkers on with hardware only (something that just works and isn't subject to a never ending cycle of re-occurring updates), and that you can view/review with your own eyes by taking the hardware out and looking at it. I imagine some kind of thin circuit plate that can be inspected (at least for the critical parts, for sake of compartmentalization of running software on hardware, as opposed to building it all into some obscure package like a damn cpu). Maybe something that could also bridge hobby electronics with regular people I imagine. :) Imagine having to now worry about hidden unseen connections in a transparent circuit board (as if one initially trusted to be able to see all the wiring paths in copper on the circuit board, and now having to worry about transparent copper or subtle doping with graphite material).


As long as severed flaws like Heartbleed happening (iirc someone being able to dump the server memory because of a flaw in the code used for networking protocols), there is imo no good point pointing a finger at how users are too dumb to manage their computer. I think it should be obvious that the industry is shit and "science" and "math" isn't there in the world as some existing and neutral party to it all to help out (and after all, the implementation of code and things has to be good and flawless, and as Bruce Scheier have said, "you are the product" (think: corporations stealing and abusing your personal data). Ofc, I don't fully trust that guy either to be this neutral party, who I personally think of as being either too naive, and who apparently thinks that nation state espionage is just ok on a general basis, being on the record for having opined a broad sweeping statement that point out that the NSA is doing a job that he expects of them to do (or something to that effect, I don't have a quotation ready at hand), who by now should knowing well that NSA and the like is involved in shady stuff and also involved in killing people with drones on the other side of the Earth. And as I think I pointed out some other time here on the forums earlier, that guy met with congress in a hearing and simply agreed to the very general notion that innovation is very important but without explaining what it meant (and iirc the subtext for that piece of discussion was that the congress panel in that hearing had stated a problem of not wanting to create rules and regulations that would be at odds with 'innovation' (whatever that could mean, I thought of it as potentially wanting to avoid putting regulations for mass surveillance software/hardware and the way the internet allows for mass surveillance).
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 07:31:15 am by Decoman »
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #185 on: January 06, 2018, 07:51:08 am »
they arent called "INTEL" for nothing!!
hell, they arent even designed in the west - think about that for a second!!!
i'm pretty sure that breaks rules relating to military procurement.  :palm:
Ah! A hit right on the head of the nail!

Even though Eurovision, for example, tries its best to teach the flock otherwise...


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Offline bd139

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #186 on: January 06, 2018, 08:03:38 am »
I thought Eurovision was a comedy. And intel but that’s another story.
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #187 on: January 06, 2018, 08:17:12 am »
Of course, Eurovision has always been a bad joke, promoting the --according to their nomenclature-- NWO; just see the grave outcome today...

As Intel has also become...

The question is, why have they decided to reveal that right now?


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Offline bd139

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #188 on: January 06, 2018, 09:14:46 am »
M’kay!
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #189 on: January 06, 2018, 10:21:49 am »
Linus Torvald called it out:

A *competent* CPU engineer would fix this by making sure speculation doesn't happen across protection domains. Maybe even a L1 I$ that is keyed by CPL.

That is easy to say in hindsight. I read a little bit about how the actual hack works and it isn't very straightforward. The way I understand it they make the CPU execute code using the branch prediction feature which accesses data to which the process shouldn't have access to. By calculating the time it takes it can be determined (bit by bit !) what data is at that address. The problem seems to be that the CPU checks the protection of the memory area AFTER the code has executed but BEFORE the result is marked as valid.
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Offline timb

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #190 on: January 06, 2018, 11:37:51 am »
You can’t really get more backward compatible than running the entire legacy OS in a virtual machine though. In fact, with current versions of Windows, when you try to run a legacy application don’t you essentially download an entire copy of XP that runs in a VM?

Keeping things ultra backwards compatible is also the reason Windows became a security nightmare. All for the benefit of a minority of their customers.
I think you'd be surprised how much of the world is dependent on things like these. There's plenty of banks and similar critical institutions that run much older software, stuck together with tape and prayers of greybeards, which absolutely critical to the well being of entire nations.

It's also not just single machines. It's entire networks and how they interact. There practically never is a point where you throw it all in the bin and start from fresh. You are always building on the choices and mistakes from the past, trying to patch just enough holes to keep things afloat. As I've stated before, the ideas our current software is based on are inherently dated, but the attacks levelled against them are not. The average hardware and software in the field cannot be anything else than behind the curve.

Oh, trust me, I know! I spent the first 12 years of my adult life in IT. I recognized what was coming and got out (switched to electrical engineering). Best move I ever made.

As of 5 years ago there were still bank ATMs running OS/2 Warp! I think they’re all gone by this point, however, some critical banking software is still based around OS/2, obviously it has to run in VM, but it’s still there; the kicker is that some of these OS/2 applications are in and of themselves virtualized environments, which were created in the 1990’s to run software originally created in the 1970’s! This is why I keep my money in my mattress.

The Financial Industry: Our Software is Turtles All the Way Down

Anyway, the article you quoted essentially proves the point I was trying to make. The banking industry is in the mess they’re in because they didn’t plan ahead and keep up with improvements in technology. Other industries are in a similar situation.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline Decoman

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #191 on: January 06, 2018, 11:52:49 am »
Twitter is really great for getting to learn about stuff, and so i have something like 100+ twitter accounts loaded from various people that I trawl through a few times a day. :) Sadly, I have now no longer have all the tabs loading in the background, so going through all of them and loading them one by one is ofc  much slower now as opposed to when I only had 50 twitter pages open.

Meanwhile on twitter:


I don't know that guy, nor if the paper he is referring to is legit so to speak, but it makes me wonder "oh, this sounds like it might be interesting".
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 11:57:04 am by Decoman »
 
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Offline MT

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #192 on: January 06, 2018, 10:21:25 pm »
As of 5 years ago there were still bank ATMs running OS/2 Warp! I think they’re all gone by this point, however, some critical banking software is still based around OS/2, obviously it has to run in VM, but it’s still there; the kicker is that some of these OS/2 applications are in and of themselves virtualized environments, which were created in the 1990’s to run software originally created in the 1970’s! This is why I keep my money in my mattress.

For heavens sake dude, dont tell people who know your physical IP location you have your Fiat money in your mattress! :palm:

Quote
The Financial Industry: Our Software is Turtles All the Way Down

Anyway, the article you quoted essentially proves the point I was trying to make. The banking industry is in the mess they’re in because they didn’t plan ahead and keep up with improvements in technology. Other industries are in a similar situation.

There is absolutely nothing wrong or failing with the finical industry, they are better off then ever before, just look into the paradise and panama papers! ^-^
Its us, the involunteered screwed, the bankpenis in the rectum people who have a hard time!

The banks psychopath oligarchs secret agenda is to end all Fiat moneys and implement oligarch psychopath controlled bitcoins, thats a lot worse!
 

Offline station240

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #193 on: January 06, 2018, 10:22:06 pm »
Why the Raspberry PI isn't effected
Simple explanation of how the modern CPU pipelining works.
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/why-raspberry-pi-isnt-vulnerable-to-spectre-or-meltdown/
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #194 on: January 06, 2018, 10:33:04 pm »
The banks psychopath oligarchs secret agenda is to end all Fiat moneys and implement oligarch psychopath controlled bitcoins, thats a lot worse!

No more cash, only electronic transactions, no way to hide a penny, then they'll have got us by the balls. Game over.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 12:16:38 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #195 on: January 06, 2018, 11:28:19 pm »
Why the Raspberry PI isn't effected
Simple explanation of how the modern CPU pipelining works.
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/why-raspberry-pi-isnt-vulnerable-to-spectre-or-meltdown/
Yeah, and Arduino probably isn't affected either.  Or my Casio calculator.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #196 on: January 06, 2018, 11:33:07 pm »
This is by far the best two responses from the OpenBSD guys:

https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=151522749523849&w=2

https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=151521473321941&w=2

This is after Theo on numerous occasions pretty much said this was coming.

Also check this performance degradation report:

https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/forums/news/announcements/132642-epic-services-stability-update

Our nginx load balancers are running about 35% hotter as well. Looking at migration to more efficient bits of tech (HAproxy for example). Increasing capacity means $$$

Shit is indeed fucked.

Oh BTW don't believe all that shit about the banks in certain states. The main use of OS/2 was a TN3270 node while they ported front office stuff to other tech (mainly Java) which was a big job. It wasn't connected to the Internet and talked to branch AS/400 platforms which all talked to massive mainframes. The security abstraction was actually on the fully supported AS/400 platforms. Now it's all a combination of z-series, piles of front end caches (to support OLB), lots of windows servers (RBS/Natwest anyway) and JBoss (HSBC).

It doesn't matter if the tech is old. It is supported.

As for your fiat money, it's bits of paper and metal. It has no real value. Look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs and build a backup plan based on trading incremental steps up the ladder. If you want security, build an empire.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 11:41:41 pm by bd139 »
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #198 on: January 06, 2018, 11:53:28 pm »
Globalresearch.ca is "alternative news" aka bollocks. India's demonetisation was a big move to try and kill part of their black economy which was built on forgery of the 500/1000 Rs notes mainly. 99% of notes were returned and cashed. They are back again now, with new security features.

I don't think people have realised that most of these large organisations, banks and anything seen to be evil by conspiracy theorists have a few interesting attributes:

1. Incompetence. Any significant mass of humans (usually about 2 or above) can't step forward rationally together. This isn't some grand conspiracy.
2. There is no global elite controlling anything. Because they couldn't fucking agree on what to control (see 1).
3. Shit sticks together in lumps. Sometimes big lumps.
4. People like money. I like money. Money hangs around in banks. Sometimes you get stuck to the shit lump. I keep doing it.

 :palm:

(Source: have worked for retail and commercial banking outfits and it's a turdfest of incompetence and nothing more. If they had an agenda it's what sandwich to have from Pret or possibly what seat covering in their Nissan Qashqai that the dog is going to piss all over the day they get it)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 11:55:08 pm by bd139 »
 

Online wraper

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Re: Memory management bug in Intel CPUs threatens massive performance hits.
« Reply #199 on: January 06, 2018, 11:59:28 pm »
Why the Raspberry PI isn't effected
Simple explanation of how the modern CPU pipelining works.
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/why-raspberry-pi-isnt-vulnerable-to-spectre-or-meltdown/
Yeah, and Arduino probably isn't affected either.  Or my Casio calculator.
:palm:, but many other ARM CPUs ARE affected. Like one in my phone. Don't compare arduino with a device which basically is a PC, just lower performance. For example, BeagleBone Black which is similar to raspberry pi is affected by Spectre.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 12:04:04 am by wraper »
 


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