Model Trains

[andy3055]

Are there any model train enthusiasts on here who model on mostly HO and/or N scale?

TIA.
Andy

[TomKatt]

I always wanted to build one of those N scale coffee table layouts.  But I think Mr Rogers must have got to me when I was young because ended up going G scale outside the patio.

[xrunner]

Here's the one I made over about three years - N scale. I don't have it anymore because I had to use the room for other things. All custom designed and custom LED lighting. Might make another smaller one though.

[MarkF]

Here is my HO railroad in progress.
Just finished laying all the track on 10'x7' benchwork.
It uses a custom control hardware based on old DC blocks.  However, my throttle is a mix of PWM for slow speed, then transitioning to DC for high speed.  I also designed a custom wireless controller around the nRF24L01+ transceivers.  The wireless throttle controls both speed and track turnout switching.  My current testing has three simultaneous controllers with seven locomotives.  Massive congestion on the railway!

My first iteration of the custom throttle was based on the my Apple ][ computer.  Majorly insufficient for the task!

I used AnyRail to do the track design.


UPDATE: (Photo montage added):

[andy3055]

Xr's N scale looks amazing! Mark looks like you are really getting into great control systems that I can only dream of. I got into an N scale High Sierra quite accidentally and now starting on an HO 10x4 layout. I need to dispose the N scale as I don't have so much space and at 70+ it is harder to deal with. Besides,  I have this collection of HO stuff from when I was 30+ in boxes. If I don't get them rolling now, it is going to be too late for me. I am almost done with the tracks. The board is occupying half of a small office room! I have to crawl under it to get to the other side. Made it in a way that I can pull the whole thing forward to do it. Please update as you make progress as it is very enjoyable to read about your work. Thanks.

[andy3055]

Here is a picture.

[pcprogrammer]

Trains do fascinate me, but have to many hobbies already 

I do have some FischerTechnik trains that came with auctions I won on EvilBay, but that is just not the real thing.

Just saw this video in my youtube recommended list. You might already know it, if not maybe you will enjoy it too.

[MarkF]

Andy,
  DCC is probably the way to go on a new layout.  But, it is sooo darn expensive.
Ya, being in my mid-60s, the crawling under the layout to do the wiring beat me up.  "Help, I can't get up!"   

  I started my design back in the 80s before DCC existed.  Then, the options were DC, rectified AC or PWM for off the shelf controllers.

  For a good source of information, you might enjoy Charlie's Youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMjSsrcmA4BNeAnh2NxYp0Q/videos

  And this channel for doing scenery:
https://www.youtube.com/@boomerdioramas/videos

[andy3055]

Thanks,
The best I have seen so far are the Miniatur Wunderland (https://www.miniatur-wunderland.com/)in Hamburg and the Berlin Loxx (https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g187323-d1857829-Reviews-LOXX_Miniatur_World-Berlin.html).

Hamburg one is many floors and has details that you will not see in many places. Airports, volcanoes, etc. etc. Even the road scenes are motorized.

The Berlin one is a model of the city of Berlin. There is one particular thing in that where there is a tiny screen with "people" watching John Kennedy addressing them with the speaker yelling: Ich bin ein Berliner. Fantastic layouts.

[andy3055]

Yes, Mark. DCC is too expensive. The cheapest I came across is the recent(?) offering by NCE with a power cab for just over $200, but one has to spend over $20.00 each for the decoders for each loco. It is out of my range. When retired and on SS, every $ counts!

It will be DC for now, at least.

[tggzzz]

Thanks,
The best I have seen so far are the Miniatur Wunderland (https://www.miniatur-wunderland.com/)in Hamburg and the Berlin Loxx (https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g187323-d1857829-Reviews-LOXX_Miniatur_World-Berlin.html).

You really really ought to see https://pendonmuseum.com/

I first heard about it in the late 60s; the volunteers are still improving it piece by piece. Unique and more remarkable than the official website indicates.

[andy3055]

Yes, that looks great too. Next time in England.. if I go again! Thanks for the tip.

[fourtytwo42]

Is this a show off your other hobbies thread  My contribution is a modest OO gauge L shaped country terminus (no space for a continuous run) that is 12' x 10' overall. Due to advancing years I gave up on N gauge (too fiddly) and duck-unders (to hard on the knees). No DCC here for cost reasons although I don't really see any advantage for single operator end-2-end layouts anyway (sparks controversy)  Your layout at least has a continuous run andy3055 something I miss.

[MarkF]

The San Diego Model Railroad Museum in Balboa Park operates the Cabrillo Southwestern O Scale layout and the San Diego and Arizona Eastern HO layout.  A must see if you're in San Diego.  I thought there was a N Scale layout also when I visited there in the late 1980's but their web site doesn't mention it.  Back then the layouts where not behind glass and you where able to talk directly with the operators.

[andy3055]

Is this a show off your other hobbies thread  My contribution is a modest OO gauge L shaped country terminus (no space for a continuous run) that is 12' x 10' overall. Due to advancing years I gave up on N gauge (too fiddly) and duck-unders (to hard on the knees). No DCC here for cost reasons although I don't really see any advantage for single operator end-2-end layouts anyway (sparks controversy)  Your layout at least has a continuous run andy3055 something I miss.
(Attachment Link)

Same issues here. Space is a major problem for me too. Only issue I will have is pausing some to let others go by.  Using switches is a pain but cheaper.  Thanks.

[Ranayna]

Wasn't there also a Video by Dave about an Indiana Jones themed model railroad he saved?
I wonder what happened to it.

[andy3055]

I have been to San Diego about 3 years back. They were not even properly operating because it was still being built. Paid the money and was out in 15 minutes! May be it is better now. Parking there is a nightmare though.

I regularly watch Sam's trains a UK youtuber who does some nice evaluating and other crazy stuff that are enjoyable.
Also, Dan's Model railways in UK who does a lot of restorations. Then there is  Marklin if Sweden who does a lot on the diorama work.

[andy3055]

Wasn't there also a Video by Dave about an Indiana Jones themed model railroad he saved?
I wonder what happened to it.

I have not come across that  yet.

[Ranayna]

Found one of the videos:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-910-indiana-jones-train-set-update/msg1002846/#msg1002846

Dammit, 2016... i would not have though it was that long ago

[andy3055]

You did some overtime to find that! I wonder if Dave is still into the trains.

[TomKatt]

Slightly OT - has anyone noticed the price of track going way up?  Granted, my G scale track has a lot more copper in it than smaller HO / N scale, but I almost cannot afford to buy new these days.

[kittmaster]

lots of work and effort, I did this when I was a kid. Miss it. Even with the house I have today, to much other EE junk in the way to support such a hobby...still love to see others designs...

[MarkF]

This past year I bought a HO turnout and a few locomotives.
The turnout was $25 USD and the non-DCC locomotives I bought ranged from $70 to $160.  You can pack on another $50 to $100 for DCC and sound fitted versions.

No more $30 locomotives and $4 freight cars.   

Sorry Andy to hear about the San Diego train museum.  It's been over 30 years since I was there and thought there was more to it back then,  I remember the HO layout being huge with a small N scale in the shadows.  Don't remember the O scale layout at all.  I wonder when they put up all that glass?  That really detracts from the experience.
I want to go dig out my pictures.  I'll post a few if I find them.

[andy3055]

Yes, all the track and loco prices are way up. It is not affordable any more. This may be the reason why most people are not in this hobby as in those days.

San Diego must have moved the location.  If it was there 30 years back, why would they be building it just a few years back? That may be why it was still in construction when I saw it.
Close to my house,  in Walnut Creek, there is a sizable and good looking layout done by a MR society. It looks good and admission is only a couple of bucks.

[andy3055]

The problem with most of us that we put things away for " when we have time or retired." In my case, as I retired in late 2017, I had a major surgery and am still not in good shape. Limited movement,  continued aches and pains below the knees keep me withdrawn most of the time. I started recently as I was inspired by an old friend with whom I lost contact for 40 odd years! Hopefully,  my granddaughters will enjoy this. Too bad no grandsons.

[TomKatt]

The problem with most of us that we put things away for " when we have time or retired." In my case, as I retired in late 2017, I had a major surgery and am still not in good shape. Limited movement,  continued aches and pains below the knees keep me withdrawn most of the time. I started recently as I was inspired by an old friend with whom I lost contact for 40 odd years! Hopefully,  my granddaughters will enjoy this. Too bad no grandsons.

Thankfully, our society seems to be breaking down the gender barriers for science / tech interests.   There are no girls in our family (other than mom lol), but I have a suspicion that tech interests flow through our dna no matter X or Y chromosomes 

Certainly, these are the types of things that are great to share with younger generations   

[MarkF]

Gee Andy.  I'm pretty much in the same situation.  I retired in 2016 when I found out that I had cancer.  Surgery and chemo have left me with having a difficult time getting around and neuropathy in my hands and feet.  When doing the wiring under the layout, I barely was able to crawl out from underneath and get back on my feet.  Doing anything with small things, tweezers and shaky hands takes forever.

Just two old timers here, swapping lies and comparing canes!   

[pcprogrammer]

Just two old timers here, swapping lies and comparing canes!   

There are many old timers here on the forum. 
Not that I'm that old (59) but having fibromyalgia (also known under Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) sometimes makes me feel very old. Today I had to put some firewood into the basement. After 6 wheelbarrows I was exhausted and sore all over.

So I can certainly relate with you guys.

[andy3055]

Mark,
I hope your cancer is in remission. I had a fistula inside the spinal tube. It was pressing against the spinal cord and I was almost getting paralyzed. If only it was detected earlier it would have been much better.  Now I have also pneuropathy in my feet due to nerve damage! At least now I can still get about. But achiy lower extremes are so depressing.
 
PCP, I know a family friend who has the same and she is constantly in pain.

I believe in karma ant I am paying for something I have done in the past for sure. 

Anyway, how does one operate or automate signals on a dc system?

[andy3055]

Just noted that I hit 1k posts!

[EEVblog]

Are there any model train enthusiasts on here who model on mostly HO and/or N scale?

I have an N scale layout here in the lab


and of course the famous Indiana Jones HO layout:

[pcprogrammer]

Just noted that I hit 1k posts!

Now you can participate in the lounge conversations 

PCP, I know a family friend who has the same and she is constantly in pain.

Hope she can still manage like I do. The pain is there, but shallow enough to not be a problem. It is a shitty disease though.

But this is about trains, so I pulled the box with my stuff out and made some pictures. Most of the stuff is disassembled, but one locomotive looks like it should. Only the motor is taken out of it.

[fourtytwo42]

Anyway, how does one operate or automate signals on a dc system?

There are so many ways of doing that you wouldn't believe!
Some sense resistance across the tracks easy up to 10K & beyond so not just loco's but also suitably modified trucks. These days it can be accomplished with two diodes & 3 transistors, decades ago i used high resistance relays and high voltage bias supplies (ouch).
Another method is reed switches/magnets or optical sensors and a latching circuit (relay or logic) BUT as not continuous things can get mixed up!
I guess those are the basic alternatives but I have heard of peeps using RFID for example.
I have had huge layouts where maintaining the electronics & software took all my time so I have retired into a strictly manual signal box, just one processor to do point servo's & signal interlocking).
Congrats on the 1000 posts 

[MarkF]

Adding signals to a model railroad has got to be the most difficult part of any layout. 
I found some good resources in the past to understand prototypical (i.e. real world railroad) signals are done:

 This first video is over 2 hours long but well worth wading through.
   

This second video has follow-up videos you can find yourself.
   

Andy, I don't know how you did you wiring, but if you want to run more than one locomotive at a time you need to break-up the track into blocks when doing DC operation (i.e. non-DCC).  On my layout, I divided the track between each turnout giving me 14 blocks.  Each power driver board has a current sense circuit and returns an occupancy signal when a locomotive is in that block.  The problem with this is that I can't tell where the end of the train is (but is fixable) and at first glance I should have more divisions.  There's no point going into more detail since your layout is not this complex.

   

There is an automatic signal system out there that does not require you to have divide the track into blocks.  It is independent of track power and is based on detection time.  This may be a 'good enough' simulation in order to provide a little eye-candy:

  https://blocksignalling.co.uk/Signal-Modules
 

There is also this manual cheapo approach which provides signals but requires the operator to manual change switches to operate the lights.  A full time job on its own, let alone operating the trains and turnouts.
   

[andy3055]

Thanks everyone. Dave should also clean the wheels so that they have good contacts with the track. Nice to know you do dabble in this. Sagen seems thrilled with it.
I also had everything boxed up and only now I got this going.
My layout hast 8 blocks. 4 on each track. Llike you say, I have to keep a close eye on where I stop them because they stop on their own only after over shooting to the next block.  I thought of putting some labels where the insulted joiners are. Thanks for the info on the signals. A lot to study.
Getting the track installed is one thing all these other stuff takes a lot of doing. I have to service all my locos as the Lubricants have dried out!

[MarkF]

I have 15 turnouts on my layout and needed a way to identify them via the wireless throttles.
At first a 3D printed little sign posts (they're about 1" tall) but couldn't see the id from all angles.
Now I printed little cubes (3/8" square) to put at each turnout blade to mimic the turnout motor mechanical box.

Maybe I should take the time to draw something more realistic to the mechanical mechanism.

I painted the letters on one to make it easier to read but I like the more subtle non-painted version.
What does everyone think?

I also printed some tunnel portals.
The stone one I downloaded from Thingiverse the others I designed from pictures.

[andy3055]

Those look great. I don't have a 3D printer and that is something I would not have much of a use for also. I am thinking of making some sort of inconspicuous things to indicate the position of the insulated joiners so that I can stop in advance without overshooting.

[MarkF]

Those look great. I don't have a 3D printer and that is something I would not have much of a use for also. I am thinking of making some sort of inconspicuous things to indicate the position of the insulated joiners so that I can stop in advance without overshooting.

I thought the same way before I got my printer.
You would be surprised what you can find to print.  I've found all kinds of things I never thought of from: mini-blind replacement parts to a rusted out coffee maker bottom to a tool holder for my desk to a cable hanger for all my bench hookup wires to enclosures for electronic projects plus much more.

[xrunner]

Those look great. I don't have a 3D printer and that is something I would not have much of a use for also. I am thinking of making some sort of inconspicuous things to indicate the position of the insulated joiners so that I can stop in advance without overshooting.

I got my 3D printer about halfway through this last layout. Now I would not even consider building a new layout without a 3D printer. There is so much you can find to print and save all that money on buying those expensive building kits plus designing your own simple things or complicated if you want. 

[tggzzz]

Those look great. I don't have a 3D printer and that is something I would not have much of a use for also.

Similar views here. 3D printing is a useful tool, but fettling with printers is not for me!

I use OpenSCAD since it suits my thinking and design processes.  I've had things made in PLA, nylon, SLA, and brass.

Use Shapeways web site to see the characteristics of many materials, and upload the .STL file to find the cost.

DirtyPCBS makes notably low-cost SLA prints.

[EEVblog]

Those look great. I don't have a 3D printer and that is something I would not have much of a use for also. I am thinking of making some sort of inconspicuous things to indicate the position of the insulated joiners so that I can stop in advance without overshooting.

I got my 3D printer about halfway through this last layout. Now I would not even consider building a new layout without a 3D printer. There is so much you can find to print and save all that money on buying those expensive building kits plus designing your own simple things or complicated if you want. 

Yes, I want to get back to my Indiana Jones train set and I think that 3D printing the stuff I need (and then painting) is the way forward.

[andy3055]

Stop it guys! Don't make me buy another piece of hardware 

By the time I get one of them and learn to use it properly,  it will be many moons. I also like making stuff with balsa wood for the scenery stuff. I can understand why you guys like it but I can't afford one at this juncture in my life. When you are on a fixed income,  lot of stuff has to be limited!

[andy3055]

I forgot about the turnouts. Why the hell can't these guys make decent turnouts? Everyone has to be individually tweaked by adjusting the moving parts and filing off the stationary parts. Some locos go through but others won't.  Especially steamers with little weight on the pony wheels in front tend to jump off the tracks within the turnouts.
What are your thoughts?

[fourtytwo42]

Well the problem is we have these fine scale people and then we have old timers like us with old stock and them and fine scale track don't play together well    So for me I make sure I use course scale track and check the back to back measurements of every bit of stock especially when first acquired as often it's completely wrong. If you happen across something like Bachmann split chassis steamers they have axle stubs pressed into plastic that are famous (to me at least) for being out of gauge and often need correcting.

[tszaboo]

I've been trying to get back into the hobby. My father had a TT size system when I was a kid (well ,he has it now but it's all rusted). And I've bought a bit of Piko H0 kit last year. I've also designed and built a Raspberry Pi Pico based DCC turnout controller, and designed a voice decoder based on the RP2040.
I kinda have a working software for it, it can decode DCC messages, but not interpret them yet. I'm also considering whether or not I have to rewrite the protocol reception from circuitpython to C because I have performance issues with it. But the proof of concept was able to play MP3 and wav, and turn a DC motor.

[MarkF]

I forgot about the turnouts. Why the hell can't these guys make decent turnouts? Everyone has to be individually tweaked by adjusting the moving parts and filing off the stationary parts. Some locos go through but others won't.  Especially steamers with little weight on the pony wheels in front tend to jump off the tracks within the turnouts.
What are your thoughts?

I've used Peco code 100 electro-frog turnouts and flex-track without much trouble.  I wired the frog through Tortoise Slow Motion Switch machines so I'm not relying solely on the blade contact.  I have not had to file or adjust the turnouts in any way.  Using the smaller code 83, 75 or 70 size would probably be more fiddly.  I don't like the height of the prefab cork roadbed so I bought 3mm cork sheets and cut it to fit.

You have to be careful with the smaller height rails (especially code 70) because the flanges on the wheels may be too large and actually hit the rail ties causing a derailment.

The only rolling stock I'm having problems with are some ore cars on Shinohara Wye's I bought years ago.  I think it's a problem with the cars and not the track because the rest of the 50+ rolling stock runs fine.

I also soldered the feeder wires onto the bottom of each rail before laying the track.  Pointing each wire to the center of the track only requires one hole to be drilled on the centerline of the track.  After ballasting, the wires will not be seen.  (Refer to Charlie's Chadwick Railway for this technique.  Also, how he wires his turnouts which is slightly different if you're not doing DCC.)

[MarkF]

I've been trying to get back into the hobby. My father had a TT size system when I was a kid (well ,he has it now but it's all rusted). And I've bought a bit of Piko H0 kit last year. I've also designed and built a Raspberry Pi Pico based DCC turnout controller, and designed a voice decoder based on the RP2040.
I kinda have a working software for it, it can decode DCC messages, but not interpret them yet. I'm also considering whether or not I have to rewrite the protocol reception from circuitpython to C because I have performance issues with it. But the proof of concept was able to play MP3 and wav, and turn a DC motor.

Very interesting concept.

You do know they now make slow motion turnout machines with DCC controllers built-in?
Cobalt:
  https://www.dccconcepts.com/product-category/the-cobalt-collection/cobalt-point-motors/cobalt-ip-digital/
Tortoise:
  http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/Smail.htm

[andy3055]

I use code 100 track and turnouts.  I try to use Peco flex track for longer curves and straights. Those are ok. The issue is on the turnouts. I have different brands of them and they all behave differently.
My locos are either Fleishmann or Hornby. In general the wheel spacing is ok but I need to check them anyway. They don't slip like Bachmann. I think those are the worst designs. I think it is a matter of testing each loco at each turnout. Painful thing to do.

[andy3055]

Yes, the slow "tortice" turnout motors are great to watch as they move the points. Only issue is you got to mount them under the table and that involves a bit of work.

Just finished most of the tweaking of my tracks. It is not perfect but usable in that two of the steam locos I have go through without de-railing. In the process, I have been servicing those locos as they are being tested. These have been in storage for 30+ years and need some lubrication. I need to do some buildings, stations etc. before the girls come on the 25th  Can't afford to disappoint them. Want to add some trees as well. Lot of stuff to do.

Please keep writing with ideas guys. Thanks.

[MarkF]

If you want to use slow motion switch machines, you really need to drill the hole for the wire to throw the switch BEFORE laying the turnout.  Don't know how you would drill it after.  And yes it's a bunch of work but you're layout looks small enough that you could turn it up on it's side to mount them.  Also, use one of the switch contacts to power the frog as a secondary power enforcement.


How to make trees and bushes....

 

 

 

[andy3055]

That is one big advantage to using those motor driven switches. You can easily activate the signal lights from those.

The trees are great. I have seen some that look real when you go "down" to looking at that level! Some people do amazing things.

[tszaboo]

I've been trying to get back into the hobby. My father had a TT size system when I was a kid (well ,he has it now but it's all rusted). And I've bought a bit of Piko H0 kit last year. I've also designed and built a Raspberry Pi Pico based DCC turnout controller, and designed a voice decoder based on the RP2040.
I kinda have a working software for it, it can decode DCC messages, but not interpret them yet. I'm also considering whether or not I have to rewrite the protocol reception from circuitpython to C because I have performance issues with it. But the proof of concept was able to play MP3 and wav, and turn a DC motor.

Very interesting concept.

You do know they now make slow motion turnout machines with DCC controllers built-in?
Cobalt:
  https://www.dccconcepts.com/product-category/the-cobalt-collection/cobalt-point-motors/cobalt-ip-digital/
Tortoise:
  http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/Smail.htm

They are servo driven, I don't have a built track to use it. Otherwise I would probably DIY a servo for it.
Honestly, I've been even toying with the idea of making my own solenoid for it, since the bought ones are 25 EUR each.

[andy3055]

My collection of stuff did not have any RC turnouts and those are damn expensive.  I ended up getting some off eBay. They are different makes and I have to tweak them. Lucky I have the time, if not, it would be frustrating. One other thing is that older track seems to have a slight height difference from modern code 100 track.
Mark: For HO, what is the best wheel spacing you have found? I have one of those digital calipers with me.

[MarkF]

Andy:
  Here is the standard for HO wheel spacing
    https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/s-4.2_2019.01.04.pdf

  NMRA Standards and Recommended Practices documentation (everything you want to know and more)
    https://www.nmra.org/index-nmra-standards-and-recommended-practices

tszaboo:
  The TORTOISE™ Slow Motion Switch Machines and Cobalt Point Motors are not servos.  They are stall motors.  You feed them 12 DCV and they run until the gearing reaches the stop where the motor stall (reversing the voltage to goto the other end).

  Servo motors can be used to move turnouts.  mpeterll's youtube channel has an example of using servo motors but he says they are not still available.  I don't know what servo controllers might be available.
    https://youtu.be/Dcf1QiQL4YY?t=352

[andy3055]

Thanks, Mark.  That is great info.

Now, another question. I have used Moly grease on the axles of the locos and it is supposed to be plastic safe. Only time will tell! That stuff is dark grey in color. I have seen some You-tubers using silicone grease. which is white or colorless. That looks much better in color.

What do you guys use?

[MarkF]

Thanks, Mark.  That is great info.

Now, another question. I have used Moly grease on the axles of the locos and it is supposed to be plastic safe. Only time will tell! That stuff is dark grey in color. I have seen some You-tubers using silicone grease. which is white or colorless. That looks much better in color.

What do you guys use?

I can't help you on this one.  I haven't reworked any of my locos. 
Even my old locos don't seem to need anything done to them.  'Knock on wood!"

However, I would stay away from anything automotive as it is probably too thick and heavy.  You might try the model railroad sites. For example:  https://midwestmodelrr.com/assembly/lubricants/

LABELLE #106 Grease for the gearbox seems to be popular from a web search:
  https://labelle-lubricants.com/shop/labelle-106-grease-with-ptfe/

[andy3055]

Thanks again,  Mark. Since all my locos were not in use for so long, all the lubricants applied at the time of manufacturing has dried up. I am servicing them before I start to run them as sourcing parts like gears for these will be very hard.

[MarkF]

Labelle's how-to video is very instructional and I highly recommend it.
  Skip ahead to time 8:30 for HO scales.

 

[andy3055]

Thanks Mark. That is a wealth of info!

[pcprogrammer]

Slightly off topic, but worth the watch. Someone has been very creative in making this train system.

[andy3055]

That is amazing! In the 60s Meccano was the thing that was very popular. It is still in many ways. It is a lot of work and one can go crazy with ideas.

[pcprogrammer]

That is amazing! In the 60s Meccano was the thing that was very popular. It is still in many ways. It is a lot of work and one can go crazy with ideas.

Sorry for the really of topic, but each his hobby 

Very true. That is what I have at the moment with FisherTechnik. I'm working on some machine to pick boxes from a storage racks. Want it to be able to get a box, move it elsewhere and dump the content, a bit like what is shown in that video.

The first setup I made was becoming to heavy and impractical. So I'm taking it apart again but will use some of the idea's in a new setup. But that is for me the fun of it at the moment. Just try to build things and see if it will work as imagined.

The picture shows the build. It has four axes of movement. The pillar can rotate and has an up and down part.

[andy3055]

That is some serious work! I think Meccano has come a very long way and added a lot of stuff. Those days there were only so many things you could build with a set you bought. There were not many variations/options in each set.

[themadhippy]

think Meccano has come a very long way and added a lot of stuff. Those days there were only so many things you could build with a set you bought. There were not many variations/options in each set.

I'd say the total opposite is true,look at the sets available today,most are for 1 off models,then compare to  what was available in the 50's through to the 70's

[pcprogrammer]

think Meccano has come a very long way and added a lot of stuff. Those days there were only so many things you could build with a set you bought. There were not many variations/options in each set.

I'd say the total opposite is true,look at the sets available today,most are for 1 off models,then compare to  what was available in the 50's through to the 70's

You see this same thing with Lego (technic) and FischerTechnik. More and more parts are made specific for the models in the set and are less universally usable. But that is not to say that one can not spend many and many hours having fun with building stuff. 

[andy3055]

That is the point.  They have refined the parts and added things to the assortment.
But getting back to the  trains, here is a tunnel under construction 
Sorry, forgot to rotate.

[pcprogrammer]

It is a burger tunnel 

Love the little tree in front of it 

[andy3055]

I have to get the brick for the portal printed
More to come. Anybody got ideas about or against using PWM type speed controls on these small brushed DC motors? Someone on YouTube had mentioned that they are too hard on them and shortens the life span. Any ideas? Come to think of it, DCC controllers are not pure DC as far as I know.

[pcprogrammer]

I have to get the brick for the portal printed

Based on the initial setup I expected some paper mache type of construction. 

Anybody got ideas about or against using PWM type speed controls on these small brushed DC motors? Someone on YouTube had mentioned that they are too hard on them and shortens the life span. Any ideas? Come to think of it, DCC controllers are not pure DC as far as I know.

Not an expert, but I don't see why it would be a problem. RC servo's also use some form of PWM to control them. Only issue I had with the brushed motors in such servo's was the wear of the brushes due to going back and forth for tiny movements to often. Talking about cheap (3$) servo's where the motors did not have real carbon brushes but fingers instead.

The control systems sold by fischertechnik for their models also use PWM to control the speed. No issues there. The motors are also brushed types.

[fourtytwo42]

Anybody got ideas about or against using PWM type speed controls on these small brushed DC motors? Someone on YouTube had mentioned that they are too hard on them and shortens the life span. Any ideas? Come to think of it, DCC controllers are not pure DC as far as I know.

I found some of them quite vicious, not just the motors heating but also the wheel treads micro-pitting. Presently I am using fairly pure DC with a bit of 100hZ sine wave in it for slow running. In OO/HO I have nothing like the pickup problems I had in N-gauge EXCEPT some x-6-x steam chassis that have rubber tires on the center drivers and pickups only on the outer drivers, these are completely useless and stall frequently so I ensure I don't buy any more of those. I am running tank loco's so no tender pickups but the good makes have pickups on ALL drivers plus at least the leading or trailing bogie, those loco's have no pickup problems at all.
If you want to go PWM I would make sure to get a recommendation from someone personally, exhibition operators are a good source IMOP.

[dave j]

More to come. Anybody got ideas about or against using PWM type speed controls on these small brushed DC motors? Someone on YouTube had mentioned that they are too hard on them and shortens the life span. Any ideas? Come to think of it, DCC controllers are not pure DC as far as I know.

I found this page with reviews of various model railway controllers and discussion of heating issues. It includes oscilloscope traces showing their PWM waveforms. The site also has his own designs for several model railway controllers.

[andy3055]

Thanks.  I haven't checked it yet but seems like he went from PWM to analog in his designs.

[MarkF]

Anybody got ideas about or against using PWM type speed controls on these small brushed DC motors? Someone on YouTube had mentioned that they are too hard on them and shortens the life span. Any ideas? Come to think of it, DCC controllers are not pure DC as far as I know.

Now this is a tough one...

The evolution of model railroad controllers from DC was to increase the start and slow speed motor response.  They began primarily trying rectified AC and then moved to PWM.  There were a host of other waveforms tried.  I believe today that all DCC decoders use PWM to drive the motors.  Some DCC decoders are now also using the back-EMF for speed feedback in order to adjust the motor's response.

PWM for motor control can cause excessive heating in the motor coils and increase erosion of the brushes.  I remember when PWM first started being used that there was a big concern about overheating the motors.  The actual effects of PWM on motors is a mix of many factors.  Here are some resources on the theory:

Controlling Brushed DC Motors Using PWM

Sumida Crossing - DCC Motor Control - PWM

My understanding is that any motor deterioration due to PWM can be reduced by increasing the PWM frequency.  I believe the first controllers used a PWM frequency in the 60 Hz range (some tied to mains AC freq).  DCC controllers seem to be at 16 KHz (top of human hearing) and maybe higher for the newest using back-EMF sensing.

There doesn't appear to be a definitive answer as to how big the impact is to the motor lifespan.  However, PWM with H-bridges is pretty much the accepted way of controlling small motors.  The design of PWM for motor control has come a long way.


I keep seeing servo motors popping up in this discussion.  Servo motors are a completely different animal.  You send a PWM signal to the servo to specify its desired position.  But, that is the end of PWM.  Servo motors have a angular feedback mechanism from which a comparator drives the motor with a DC voltage in the forward or reverse direction until the angles match.

[andy3055]

Thanks Mark. That is  a great explanation. Probably the newer motors in those DCC ready locos are designed for the purpose. I think at this time it is best to stick to the older analog controllers as these old motors are hard to replace. Especially for Hornby and Fleishmann, parts are very hard to find.
Thanks again for your input.

[MarkF]

Be aware that a lot of those old analog throttles actually injected pulses as shown in the link davej provided.

If you're up to building something here's a hacked together throttle from online circuits.  Since it's rectified AC, you would get the slow speed start characteristics without the ill effects of the sharp edges of a PWM waveform.  It would be a nice compromise.

(Select R1 to set the maximum track voltage.)

[andy3055]

This is great! I think I have the parts in hand to build one. Thank again.

[pcprogrammer]

I keep seeing servo motors popping up in this discussion.  Servo motors are a completely different animal.  You send a PWM signal to the servo to specify its desired position.  But, that is the end of PWM.  Servo motors have a angular feedback mechanism from which a comparator drives the motor with a DC voltage in the forward or reverse direction until the angles match.

The more modern servo controllers also use PWM internally to control the motor. This at a much higher frequency then the external PWM signal.

[RoGeorge]

With all the 3D printers (optical ones), would make sense to buy only generic wheels platforms, with/without motor, then to have (free) downloadable models, for various wagons and locomotives shapes.  That will require painting after 3D printing, but that's not unusual in modeling.

I bet the printing resin + platform wheels would cost less than the ready made wagons or locomotives, wouldn't it?

[MarkF]

This is great! I think I have the parts in hand to build one. Thank again.

Depending on the voltage of the power pack, you may need to add a resistor between the pot and the diode to limit the max track voltage to 12V.  I would try to limit the max track voltage between 12V and 12.5V  You could safely go as high as 14V, but I would not.

With all the 3D printers (optical ones), would make sense to buy only generic wheels platforms, with/without motor, then to have (free) downloadable models, for various wagons and locomotives shapes.  That will require painting after 3D printing, but that's not unusual in modeling.

I bet the printing resin + platform wheels would cost less than the ready made wagons or locomotives, wouldn't it?

I don't have a resin printer, but that would be a real chore to print you're own rolling stock.  By that, I mean doing a CAD design for them.  I haven't seen any models that have been made.  Although, there are structures and other small items for can download.  The actual material would be cheaper.  But, I don't know if resin printers can duplicate the fine details and again the time required to do a CAD design would probably not make the savings worth while.

As far as wheels, most people will swap out plastic wheels for all metal ones.  And the better rolling stock already come with metal wheels.

I have been struggling to print a searchlight signal head with my Creality CR-10.  The small size seems to be right at the limit for creating the detail needed.  They are something a resin printer could probably do but I don't have any experience with their capabilities.

[RoGeorge]

I don't have a resin printer, but so far my understanding is that the level of details and smoothness of the prints is much better than in the filament prints.

About the 3D models, it's enough to draw it once.  Another source of models can be made by scanning the real thing with a laser scanner, in a rail station or in a museum.  There is yet another way to reconstruct a 3D model by using many pictures taken from different angles.  Then, there might be technical drawings in archives.  None of these is perfect, but I guess will require less work than making a model from scratch.

In time, more and more CAD models for trains will accumulate.  After all, it doesn't has to be collector's items or copyrighted models, can be fantasy wagons and locomotives that never existed before. 

All is needed is to be enough enthusiasts, and to bring them together in a forum or some similar online place.  There, they can talk to each other, share pics and videos with miniature landscapes and trains, exchange between them info, models and hardware, etc.

[andy3055]

Unless one has a ready "market," I think the effort to create rolling stock from scratch and painting will not be worth as I see it. Even with commercially available stuff the details and painting is not all that perfect.

[MarkF]

Andy,

Since you expressed interest in the AC Fullwave throttle a few posts back, I spent a little time today laying out a PCB that I might build to see how my locomotives respond.  Here are the gerber files if you would like to have a PCB built.

You can remotely mount the pot and run wires to a DPDT switch instead of the relay.

[andy3055]

Mark,
Thanks for that. Is that the same circuit you suggested earlier? Since it is just a few parts, I was planning to use a veroboard but I realized that I don't have the Darlington transistor. I have to order one. I have the rest of the parts. If you do put it together before me, please let me know how it performs.
At the moment I have an old Bachmann controller which to my horror was giving out 20 volt spikes. I have my daughter and her family coming over on Saturday for a week and I just got the basics working for the little girls. 

[MarkF]

Yes.  It should be the same circuit unless I messed up somewhere.

Except, I used a 2N2222 instead of the 2N3904 because I'm have a bunch of 2N2222.

[MarkF]

I found another video on making pine trees that is simple to do.  Enjoy.

[andy3055]

Thanks  Mark. I will check on that circuit once I get hold of the Darlington transistor.
There is a YouTuber in Canada who does some nice work with cheaply available stuff rather than buying from  Walthers etc. I will try to find his page and post it.

[andy3055]

Check this out. He has a few more on creating trees etc.
https://youtu.be/v0rvFaI8fzU

[MarkF]

Check this out. He has a few more on creating trees etc.
https://youtu.be/v0rvFaI8fzU

There is a YouTuber in Canada who does some nice work with cheaply available stuff rather than buying from  Walthers etc. I will try to find his page and post it.

Thanks Andy.  I forgot that I had seen him before. 

Were you talking about Boomer's Youtube channel ?  He indicates that he is in Canada now but he use to work in Hollywood creating models for the movies.  He is very good and explains a lot of insight on the thought process behind the work.  I especially liked his series on scratch building a dinner. 
   

I follow quit a lot of Youtube channels.  Part of my morning routine.   
Here are a few more channels that have been very instructive:
   https://www.youtube.com/@THEBENNETTRAILROAD/featured
   https://www.youtube.com/@ThePixelDepotLLC/featured
   https://www.youtube.com/@EverardJunction/featured

I am just now getting started on the scenery and putting together the last two buildings that have been waiting in a box for 25 years.   
I'm going back to my older buildings to add LED lighting.  I'm also working on moving the mountains and tunnels from my Anyrail design software to layout to see what looks right.  That's why the 3D printed tunnel portals sitting around in some of the pictures I posted.

[andy3055]

OMG! These guys are great at modeling. If you look at them "in the scale," it is like you are in the scene.
Great links.
Thanks for the message.

[andy3055]

Andy,

Since you expressed interest in the AC Fullwave throttle a few posts back, I spent a little time today laying out a PCB that I might build to see how my locomotives respond.  Here are the gerber files if you would like to have a PCB built.

You can remotely mount the pot and run wires to a DPDT switch instead of the relay.

Mark,

What is the value of R1 in this circuit?

[MarkF]

The value of R1 depends on the AC transformer that you use.
For a 9V AC transformer, it would be 0Ω (i.e. no resistor).
For a 12V AC transformer, I believe I calculated something around 150Ω.
It is just to bring down the maximum track voltage.

It's a basic voltage divider circuit:
   

You can use an online calculator to get a value. However, the actual track voltage will be two diode drops (V_BE = 1.4V) lower because of the darlington.
   https://ohmslawcalculator.com/voltage-divider-calculator

Or just put a meter on the output and try some values in the 0Ω to 200Ω range trying the limit the track voltage down close to 12V.  Definitively, keeping it below 14V.


Note:
  If you don't use R1 and you're using a 12VAC transformer, the track voltage will be about 15.5V.  Which IMHO is a little too high for a 12V motor.

Note 2:
  I'm forgetting about all the diode drops at the front end.  So, the voltage will be a little lower.  Just leave R1 out and check the output voltage.  Then adjust R1 accordingly.

[andy3055]

Got it, thanks.

[joeqsmith]

I know, necroposting...   Years ago a I was loaned the book Hackers written by Steven Levy.  It documents some of the early history of computers, starting at MIT.  The term hacking had a different meaning back then, so don't expect the book to be about what we call hacking today.   

The book starts out talking about the model railroad club at MIT and how they were using some of the telephone switch gear to automate the trains.
https://classes.visitsteve.com/hacking/wp-content/Steven-Levy-Hackers-ch1+2.pdf

When I was a child, I played a lot with my old train sets.  I was at a dumpsite an found some sort of electric timer.  Basically a motor with a complex rotary switch attached to it.  I took it apart to sort out how it worked and used it to automate my trains.

I still have a few bits from my old trains that survived.  I remember my dad taking me to an old farm house where a lady showed us her husbands old train sets.  My dad bought them for me.  Shortly after we got home, a person contacted my dad about wanting to buy some of the passenger cars.   My dad sold them off before I had a chance to play with them.  Most likely a good thing if they were collectable (I was rough on my toys).   

Sorry but I have no photos of the old setup.   Imagine an 8-12 year old playing with plaster, paper mache  and spray paint.  You pretty much have it.  Nothing like what the adults put together today.

[andy3055]

Building up the scenery is beyond even most of the adults let alone the young kids. In my case, the stuff was collected for over 40+ years. It is hard at this age to work on these due to the usual aches and pains. I want to complete a fairly basic system I can use to impress the two granddaughters. Pity, there is no grandson.  I sometimes wonder what would happen to all this stuff as my age progresses. 

[joeqsmith]

A friend's GF's dad who had passed away had a large collection of trains.  I met her mom and she let me see it.  It was a large HO scale layout that took up most of their basement.  My guess is it gave her mom comfort or, she didn't want to deal with liquidating it.   I don't have enough parts that survived my childhood to make the cleanup more than taking a box to the recycle bin.   The few parts I have are in rough shape and I doubt would have much value to anyone besides me.

Saw a website where they had restored some of the old cars.  Stripping rust, prime, bodywork...  It was like a car restoration complete with new graphics.   I've looked for used parts to see if I could repair some of mine.  It may be fun to get it running.  Maybe just an oval...

[andy3055]

What scale are your trains?

[joeqsmith]

Mine were mostly O gauge.  I had I think an old S gauge that was a steam bullet.  Similar to this one,  but from what I remember it was a dull silver painted finish. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/235307468024

I tore one of my engines apart.  This is a Marx 999.  The wheel bearings are all shot.  My childhood custom paint job was in poor condition, not just that I had no skills to be painting at that age, but it had a lot of chips and such.  Chemical stripper....   

I have no idea on the age.  I didn't think I could put a price on my childhood memories, but this site suggest the very common one is worth about $20.    

https://dfarq.homeip.net/marx-999-locomotive-variations/

[MarkF]

My first layout (the test track) was just two ovals. 
One inside the other with a crossover between them.

When my bother and I were kids, our father built a O scale layout
with Lionel trains.  They flew off the rails and onto the floor
most of the time.  When my father passed 15 years ago, we divided
them between us.  He had them running for my nephew for a while.

The new O scale locomotives with sound are all fancy now (electronically).
I don't know anything about them.

[MarkF]

I have no idea on the age.  I didn't think I could put a price on my childhood memories, but this site suggest the very common one is worth about $20.    

I would say more like $120 in pieces.

You can't even get a HO scale box car for $20 now days.
Last year I paid $160 for a non-DCC HO locomotive.

[MarkF]

When I was in high school, my father took me to someone who built
a 1/4 scale steam engine in his garage.  He had two flat cars with seats
and a 12" wide track in his back yard for his grandchildren to ride in.

[joeqsmith]

Looks like there are places selling brush and spring kits for it.  Nothing for bearings.  There is a used, untested motor assembly for one.  Bearings may be in just as poor conditions.   

I had a mixture of Lionel, American Flyer and Marx.  Some were tinplate, tinplate and plastic, others plastic.  As a kid, we would drag race them, play smash up derby, pull contests.   I blame TV for aiding in my lack of judgement.  Then again, I did have a lot of fun with them.   

Here are a few of this engine for less than $30 with shipping:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166468063702
https://www.ebay.com/itm/266540159396
https://www.ebay.com/itm/276196210593

Maybe they will reach $100. 

I had an engine that took some sort of liquid and would blow smoke and had a speaker in the tinder.  I think that was a Lionel.  Guessing plastic as it must have been in very poor condition and was pitched after losing too many battles.   

   

[joeqsmith]

When I was in high school, my father took me to someone who built
a 1/4 scale steam engine in his garage.  He had two flat cars with seats
and a 12" wide track in his back yard for his grandchildren to ride in.

Nice.  There was a small gauge train where I grew up that gave rides to the public.  I think it was part of a business.  I remember getting to ride it but it's long gone.  Too bad.

[andre_teprom]

I used to be big into model trains, and HO scale was my jam. Spent countless hours building layouts and tinkering with tiny details.

[tggzzz]

When I was in high school, my father took me to someone who built
a 1/4 scale steam engine in his garage.  He had two flat cars with seats
and a 12" wide track in his back yard for his grandchildren to ride in.

Nice.  There was a small gauge train where I grew up that gave rides to the public.  I think it was part of a business.  I remember getting to ride it but it's long gone.  Too bad.

15" gauge, 13.5 miles long?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romney,_Hythe_and_Dymchurch_Railway
https://www.rhdr.org.uk/

[joeqsmith]

When I was in high school, my father took me to someone who built
a 1/4 scale steam engine in his garage.  He had two flat cars with seats
and a 12" wide track in his back yard for his grandchildren to ride in.

Nice.  There was a small gauge train where I grew up that gave rides to the public.  I think it was part of a business.  I remember getting to ride it but it's long gone.  Too bad.

15" gauge, 13.5 miles long?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romney,_Hythe_and_Dymchurch_Railway
https://www.rhdr.org.uk/

I would have been maybe 5 years old and the tracks seemed huge.  So no idea on the gauge but I think it looked something like a modern diesel. 

Appears I had painted this engine at least three times.   Black and red.  Black and white.  Some sort of brown....      Shown with what is left of the original black after chemical stripping all the layers. 

***
Also shown after primer.

[tggzzz]

When I was in high school, my father took me to someone who built
a 1/4 scale steam engine in his garage.  He had two flat cars with seats
and a 12" wide track in his back yard for his grandchildren to ride in.

Nice.  There was a small gauge train where I grew up that gave rides to the public.  I think it was part of a business.  I remember getting to ride it but it's long gone.  Too bad.

15" gauge, 13.5 miles long?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romney,_Hythe_and_Dymchurch_Railway
https://www.rhdr.org.uk/

I would have been maybe 5 years old and the tracks seemed huge.  So no idea on the gauge but I think it looked something like a modern diesel. 

This one scared my 3yo when it drew away from the platform.

[joeqsmith]

Very nice looking setup.  I wonder now days if you could buy a kit to build one.  My grandfather used to build some stationary hot air and steam engines for a hobby.  He had made a few locomotives but I think they were smaller.   He would make the parts from wood, then make sand castings of them.  Thinking a bit of a lost art today.

I used some semi-gloss VHT paint on it.  The camera flash makes it look way more glossy than it is.  I noticed when stripping the paint that there was a flaw in the casting.  That's not paint stuffed in there but metal.  The experts may be able to figure out when it was made by this.   

[andy3055]

Mine were mostly O gauge.  I had I think an old S gauge that was a steam bullet.  Similar to this one,  but from what I remember it was a dull silver painted finish. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/235307468024

I tore one of my engines apart.  This is a Marx 999.  The wheel bearings are all shot.  My childhood custom paint job was in poor condition, not just that I had no skills to be painting at that age, but it had a lot of chips and such.  Chemical stripper....   

I have no idea on the age.  I didn't think I could put a price on my childhood memories, but this site suggest the very common one is worth about $20.    

https://dfarq.homeip.net/marx-999-locomotive-variations/

That IS old alright!

[andy3055]

Very nice looking setup.  I wonder now days if you could buy a kit to build one.  My grandfather used to build some stationary hot air and steam engines for a hobby.  He had made a few locomotives but I think they were smaller.   He would make the parts from wood, then make sand castings of them.  Thinking a bit of a lost art today.

I used some semi-gloss VHT paint on it.  The camera flash makes it look way more glossy than it is.  I noticed when stripping the paint that there was a flaw in the casting.  That's not paint stuffed in there but metal.  The experts may be able to figure out when it was made by this.

That is a great paint job. What are going to do about the motor and the rest of the drive train?

[andy3055]

My HO layout is only 40-60% complete.

[joeqsmith]

Your setup is way nicer than anything I ever had.  My layout sat on top of three discarded doors (from a house), sitting on cinder blocks.   

That is a great paint job. What are going to do about the motor and the rest of the drive train?

It's also missing the number plate and head lamp lens in the front of the engine.  The drive wheel gears don't appear too worn but the larger one seems a bit sloppy.  The drive axles don't have any groves that I can detect with my thumbnail.  It seems the biggest problem is the bearings and a broken stud.  I may try and find another 999 as a donor that has the missing parts and gamble on it having better bearings and gearing.  I may get lucky and find one that wasn't abused as much as mine.    The bearings may have been a common size used in clocks.  Beyond that, I think machining new ones may be the only other option.   

I think all that paint saved the bell from rusting as the nickle looks new.     I took some steel wool to the wires and straightened the bends. 

[NiHaoMike]

Quinn Dunki is working on one powered by an actual miniature steam engine.

[andy3055]

Quinn Dunki is working on one powered by an actual miniature steam engine.

I hope you will find the parts for this. Like you said, you can always turn out the bearings.  But the small gears might be a challenge.

[joeqsmith]

Looks like the others I pointed out all sold cheap.  At least I'm destroying a national treasure.   

The parts engine arrived.  It looks like it sat in a damp area much of it's later years.   Bearings and gearing were tight, so I tore it all apart, cleaned and combined the two motors using the best parts with fresh grease and oil.    Ran it on the bench supply for a few minutes.  Runs smooth.   Need to machine up some screws to hold it together.   

Looks too nice compared to the other parts.  It's out of place. 

[andy3055]

Post a clip when it is all done.

[joeqsmith]

To make a clip of it running, I would need to get some track.  Mine is all in very rough condition.  Rust, bent rails, missing ties....   It's been sitting on the fireplace mantle for several years.  Surprised my wife hasn't tossed it yet as it's such an eye sore.     How rough?  Here is my American Flyer decoupler.     

[andy3055]

More paint jobs.

[joeqsmith]

    

I machined up two brass screws to hold it together and brushed them with some black.  I'm not sure what they looked like originally but mine had two wood screws with big, fat heads jammed in it from my youth.   

[andy3055]

Interesting design with the drive gear exposed. Is the a 2-4-0 or 2-4-2?

[joeqsmith]

That's a 2-4-2.  The one behind is another Marx, 4-6-2.  Mechanically, it is in good shape but cosmetically, I give it a 3 out of 10.  I believe my plastic Lionel that had the smoke and sound was a 2-4-2 as well.  I also has a couple of Lionel small pushers, a hand car, and a large diesel.  None of them survived my youth.   Hand car was pretty cool as it had a rubber man that went up and down as the car moved along.   

The diesel was very similar to this one:
https://picclick.com/Lionel-O-Scale-Santa-Fe-ATSF-8010-Switcher-394995016808.html#&gid=1&pid=1

I still have a few metal-plastic and plastic cars but most of the ones that survived are the old tin plate.   

[andy3055]

It is going to take a lot of efforts to get them into a decent looking setup. You must be retired 

[joeqsmith]

Not retired yet.    Better view of the two Marx engines.  Switch would normally have been red but shown with gray primer.  This one still works but is in very rough condition.   

[andy3055]

You should watch this channel:
https://m.youtube.com/@classicmodeltrains

[EEVblog]

I have done some other model railways videos:

[joeqsmith]

You should watch this channel:
https://m.youtube.com/@classicmodeltrains

Checked out some of his videos. 

This was a bad weekend for my old train.   I ended up rewinding the motor in the 999 Marx.  The motor was making poor power and drawing a lot of current.  I should have taken some photos.  They did not use tape around the laminates and the fiber insulators allowed the wire to directly contact the sharp corners.  Over the years it cut through the mag wire's insulation and shorted to the frame.    I used tape when I rewound it.   

So I had the original stator that wasn't shorted.  Of course it is riveted to the plate but one stud was broke.  So I took the dremel and was going to cut out the bad stud and machine a new one.  Of course, idiot cuts the stator.  So ground out the rivets then realized the two rivets holding the stator are different.   So I ended up saving the studs from the donor motor and re-riveting them to the frame.   I unwound the original stator after I damaged it and saw how the fiber plates were a much better design.   Looks like they had a quality issue. 

Now when I grab the drive wheels, I can feel it makes some really good torque.   Lot of work to save my boyhood engine that is only worth about $10.      

[andy3055]

Great videos, Dave. Thanks for posting them. In the area I live, there is just one rail club with a layout.  It is pretty decent but I haven't gone there for a long time.  Must make a visit with the grand kids when they come next weekend.

Joe, I would love to see a photo of the motor you are talking about. With a wound stator, is it like an old Marklin motor?

[joeqsmith]

Marked up a few photos from the internet for you to help explain.   I went a slightly smaller gauge and more turns.  Also higher temp wire.   To reattach the riveted posts, I used a punch to expand the brass. 

[andy3055]

Som of the old Marklin locos had AC motors with a woubd stator. Those had a complicated reversing arrangement. They were also 3 rail tracks. I think Marklin still produce the three rail tracks and locos but  they are DC/DCC, I think. Never seen one upclose to be sure.

[MarkF]

There is a video and a manufacture that makes new motors that fit inside where the old rotor goes.
I believe there were three different sizes.
For the life of me, I can't find the video or where you can buy the new motors.   

[andy3055]

Is it this one? He is in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/@HornsWhistlesWorkshop

[joeqsmith]

44 to 45 AWG.  Got a few more feet on there.  About 20' total.  Kapton on the bottom and top layers.   You can see where I ground out the studs to remove the stator and dimpled them with a punch to reattach.  Both studs are from the donor.   

Runs very smooth now with good control and a good amount of torque.  I removed the dead glass bulb and replaced with an LED.  A bit harsh.   

[joeqsmith]

Clip of it running, cycling the forward/reverse solenoid, finger dyno testing, overspeed.   And after all these years, I still treat it like a race car...

[NiHaoMike]

Som of the old Marklin locos had AC motors with a woubd stator. Those had a complicated reversing arrangement. They were also 3 rail tracks. I think Marklin still produce the three rail tracks and locos but  they are DC/DCC, I think. Never seen one upclose to be sure.

[MarkF]

Is it this one? He is in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/@HornsWhistlesWorkshop

I don't know if that's the exact site.  But, those are the motors I remember.
I do HO.  So, never bookmarked it.

[MarkF]

Som of the old Marklin locos had AC motors with a woubd stator. Those had a complicated reversing arrangement. They were also 3 rail tracks. I think Marklin still produce the three rail tracks and locos but  they are DC/DCC, I think. Never seen one upclose to be sure.

Thanks,
That is the refresher I was looking for a few days ago.
School is a little foggy. But,it's been 45 years ago.

[andy3055]

Great clips! That repair seems like almost new, the way it runs. These locos are very noisy. I wonder if they will improve with some Lubrication.

I once saw a diagram that shows how those locos are wired for forward/reverse. I wonder as to why those came with such complicated arrangements.

[joeqsmith]

Someone's video demonstrating the Lionel and Marx engines on both AC and DC.  BTW, I used DC for that clip showing it running.  The forward reversal solenoid toggles when you pulse the power to the engine. 

IMO, one of the more interesting motors I have is on an old Lionel banjo type signal crossing.   This thing uses a vibrator (solenoid) that pulls the motors rotor in and out.  They have a washer inside with three small rubber tits that are mounted on an angle.  This acts as a ratchet system and caused the rotor to turn.   Mine would need a new washer to run or I would  make a clip for you of it running.

I wonder if they will improve with some Lubrication.

I cleaned, polished and greased all the moving parts when putting it together so I don't think I can improve it.   Of course, the camera is only a few inches away when I made the clip.

[joeqsmith]

First post shows the banjo signal's motor with the washer I mentioned.   

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/mpc-lionel-banjo-signal

[andy3055]

Things were much more complicated just a few years back!

[tszaboo]

Things were much more complicated just a few years back!

Oh really? Have you tried DCC?
Did you have decoders blow up just because the engine derails?
Figured out if two piece of equipment is compatible, or try to figure out something with severely lacking documentation?

[andy3055]

I have not used DCC. However, you got my post wrong. Enough said.

[joeqsmith]

Seems you could make it as high tech as you want.   Run the trains autonomous.  Forget powering them through the rails.  Maybe a short section of metal track that charges the super cap banks like some of the electric transit buses.  Use BLE interface to a PC.   GPS to track their location.  Maybe just use a virtual simulated train set.  With a 3D headset, you could ride the trains.  Maybe a rumble seat for that extra realism.   

[andy3055]

Actually,  there are train simulator programs already. It lets you select all sorts of locos and features for the given loco! Much like the flight simulator.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=train+simulator&sp=mAEA

[MarkF]

Here's a brief discussion of automation programs that are available for DCC and
a demo of Train Controller.  A little long winded in my opinion but worth a look.

Somewhere in one of his other videos he shows how to place track insulators so that
the train slows and stop at exact positions (like the end of a siding or at a platform).



IMHO the DCC equipment is very expensive.  The locomotives with decoders and sound are
a bout $50 more expensive.  Plus all the supporting DCC equipment under the layout.
Although, it does make running trains MUCH nicer.

Looking back, all my computer interface electronics is starting to add up too.  I started
designing it back on my Apple ][ when DCC wasn't around.  The Apple was just too slow
and the design was tabled for many years.  The design didn't really come into its own
until I started experimenting with PIC micro-controllers.

[MarkF]

For those interested, some recent photos
(Underside is only a small left hand corner of the layout)
(Sander belts are mock-up mountains)

[RoGeorge]

Meanwhile, people who don't have trains ...

[tszaboo]

Here's a brief discussion of automation programs that are available for DCC and
a demo of Train Controller.  A little long winded in my opinion but worth a look.

Somewhere in one of his other videos he shows how to place track insulators so that
the train slows and stop at exact positions (like the end of a siding or at a platform).



IMHO the DCC equipment is very expensive.  The locomotives with decoders and sound are
a bout $50 more expensive.  Plus all the supporting DCC equipment under the layout.
Although, it does make running trains MUCH nicer.

Looking back, all my computer interface electronics is starting to add up too.  I started
designing it back on my Apple ][ when DCC wasn't around.  The Apple was just too slow
and the design was tabled for many years.  The design didn't really come into its own
until I started experimenting with PIC micro-controllers.

DCC is the part that an EE can do themselves. There is DCC++ that you can run on an Arduino. I designed my own turnout decoders and I'm in the process of making decoders for the engines. For me it's part of the hobby, and it's more fun than stocking fake grass from the shop to some plywood.

[MarkF]

Yes.  But, I believe it is now called DCC-EX.

[joeqsmith]

DCC is the part that an EE can do themselves. There is DCC++ that you can run on an Arduino. I designed my own turnout decoders and I'm in the process of making decoders for the engines. For me it's part of the hobby, and it's more fun than stocking fake grass from the shop to some plywood.

Reading "Hackers" (book I previously linked) they talk about the two type of members in the MIT model railroad club.  Ones who enjoyed the art, the others, the engineering.   I had a book growing up on model trains where they showed removing the center pin (3 rail track) and running two wires to switch the rails.  I then expanded on this idea using that motor driven rotary switch I found in the dump. 

[joeqsmith]

Here's my first layout, consisting of three straight sections.   Don't let the simplicity fool you.   I had more track than connector pins.  I remember getting a box of nails that I had cut up to make my pins.  These nails are what is inside these rails.   Then note the soldering directly to the tracks.  This solder could have been anything.  Looks like cold joints.  From the lack of any burn marks, guessing I used my dads soldering gun.   This is how I was applying power to the different sections of track. 

[andy3055]

You will need a nice flat file to make those level with each other 

[joeqsmith]

Some screws and a block of wood.  My first test track in operation. 

[MathWizard]

I used to have electric trains as a kid. But I guess the big people most of them it all out at some point. I guess I could always buy some track and try to make a motor and some wireless control.

[joeqsmith]

Correcting the primary source of noise on the Marx 999.

[RoGeorge]

4K CABVIEW: Christmas Freight Train Driver Heading Home for Christmas
RailCowGirl



 

[andy3055]

That is one thing I like to do... ride in the cab! What fun 

[RoGeorge]

There is plenty of room to fit a webcam and a Wi-Fi transmitter in a model, so to watch the ride of a model train from the driver's seat. 

I wonder if model locomotives and wagons ever come with webcams, from factory. 

[lezginka_kabardinka]

LEGO trains are cheaper and more fun. Let’s be honest, they’re all toys. Good fun.

[tszaboo]

There is plenty of room to fit a webcam and a Wi-Fi transmitter in a model, so to watch the ride of a model train from the driver's seat. 

I wonder if model locomotives and wagons ever come with webcams, from factory.

They don't do that for control, because if you get a little bit of dust on the track, it will disconnect and get stuck for half a minute. DCC makes much more sense. You can do that for less important stuff. Also, consider that trains models nowadays are super accurate to the real life trains, so those lens would stick out.

[andy3055]

The little village at the left corner has people and greenery now. Two trains passing by near the tunnel

[joeqsmith]

Closeup of the two original primary drive gears from the motor I repaired.   

[.RC.]

Just a tiny bit of backlash in those gears*. 

*one looks to be a chain sprocket, the other an epicycloidal style gear.

[Whales]

This topic is gorgeous.  I don't have the space to ever make things like this, but I'm having fun vicariously.  Thankyou to everyone for the photos.

Anyone have a model train set with solar panels between the rails, lights turning purple, a house overflowing with test gear or wind turbines on the locos? 

[joeqsmith]

Just a tiny bit of backlash in those gears*. 

*one looks to be a chain sprocket, the other an epicycloidal style gear.

Indeed, it looks like a sprocket for my motorcycle.    The motor I salvaged the gears from were not worn to a sharp point but looks like the child who played with it had a lot of fun.

[andy3055]

That large gear looks worn-out.
No solar but LED lighting in some area. See picture.

[RoGeorge]

Majestic Journey: 4K Aerial Cinematics of the Bergen Line
RailCowGirl



 

[andy3055]

That is beautiful! On the ground, it must be very difficult to get about with all that snow. I have never been to such places other than to Berlin in the height of a winter.

BTW, the best layouts are in Berlin and Hamburg I think.

[tggzzz]

That is beautiful! On the ground, it must be very difficult to get about with all that snow. I have never been to such places other than to Berlin in the height of a winter.

BTW, the best layouts are in Berlin and Hamburg I think.

You need to see the Pendon Museum in Long Wittenham south of Oxford. https://pendonmuseum.com/ Construction started on the 50s, and it is nearing completion. I first heard about it in the 60s, in a railway modelling magazine.

Here's a 1958 cinema short on it, in a style typical of the era.

[andy3055]

Yes, these modelers are beyond imagination.  I wish I had their manual dexterity and was not so clumsy.

[tggzzz]

Yes, these modelers are beyond imagination.  I wish I had their manual dexterity and was not so clumsy.

Took daughter to Pendon Museum, and by chance it was an open day. They showed her how to make model cauliflowers. She was sufficiently inspired that we made a small farm scene together.

I think patience and imagination are more important than manual dexterity, since the latter is usually a matter of practice.

[andy3055]

Patience is  a rare commodity in my case 

[MarkF]

I see some posts of night photos.

I just finished retro-fitting interior lighting for my builds.  The lights for each build can be turned on/off from either the laptop or from a wireless throttle.



And a screen capture of the computer controller with touch screen.  Turnouts can be changed by touching the ID square beside the corresponding turnout.  Lights are switched by touching the asterisk on top of the building.



In addition, I 3D printed a bank of interlocking levers for my signal tower.  I did a few rounds of design and they are a still a little too big.  But, I don't know if I can print them any smaller.  Each lever is printed separate and glued to the base.  They are not a visible as I was hoping.

[Whales]

Interesting software.  Is it fully custom or something from the web you have added your layout and comms to?

> Each lever is printed separate and glued to the base.  They are not a visible as I was hoping.

Maybe it's because the windowframes are glowing so brightly, obscuring the levers.

[MarkF]

All the software (the laptop, the USB master control module in the computer interface, the wireless throttles, etc.) is written in C/C++ using a custom drawing libraries.  OpenGL library for the laptop and another custom graphics library for the OLED display in throttles for doing all the drawing.

Behind the scenes, I used Anyrail to design the track layout.  Anyrail can export the layout to an XML file.  I wrote another program to parse this XML file to allow me to draw the track over top of a background PNG also exported by Anyrail.  Not shown on the screen capture, each track power driver has built-in occupancy detection which is by drawing the corresponding block on the display in white.  Each track block is also drawn as red or green indicating direction (i.e. voltage polarity) if the throttle is turned up.  There are also throttle positions on the left for all 15 blocks.



The only think I did not write were the routines to read/write BMP, JPG and PNG pictures.  The terrain and structures on the screen captures is a PNG file exported from Anyrail.

I forgot about the analog PCB.  In total there are four programs:
  - The laptop master
  - A pic18f4620 in the USB-to-I/O interface using a FTDI FT245RL
  - A pic16f876 in the analog PCB to control each track block (PWM slow speed, DC medium/high speed, occupancy detect)
  - A pic18f2620 in the wireless throttles using a nRF24L01+ radio

As for the signal tower, the interior lighting is pretty bright.  I think the bigger problem is that the model came with the top half of the windows having shades painted on them.

[andy3055]

Lovely! You can do a lot in N scale with limited space. But it is too fiddly for me.

I toned down the lights in my layout and it looks much better now.

[MarkF]

Lovely! You can do a lot in N scale with limited space. But it is too fiddly for me.

I toned down the lights in my layout and it looks much better now.

If you're referring to my layout, it is HO scale (10ft x 7ft).

I have the LEDs set at about 25% of their full brightness.
They seem overly bright in total darkness but I hate to lower them much more.
I've toned them down twice so far.  I'm being to wish I had made them adjustable.

Maybe I'll come back to them.  Now, I need to move on to painting and ballasting the track.

[andy3055]

10x7 is a good size. I have space only for 9x4 usable area on a 10x4 board.  It has already taken half the room!
You can dull the LED surface if needed to reduce the brightness.

[MarkF]

10x7 is a good size. I have space only for 9x4 usable area on a 10x4 board.  It has already taken half the room!
You can dull the LED surface if needed to reduce the brightness.

In the small railroad maintenance buildings, I painted the LED lens with TAMIYA Clear Orange to get more of an oil lamp effect.  In the industrial buildings, I kept the warm white color.  I have some cool white LEDs I'm going to try to use for street/parking lot lights.  They're not very bright though.

If you look at the Signal Tower, the upstairs is 'warm white' while the downstairs has the 'TAMIYA clear orange'.

Warm white LEDs have become difficult to find.  Most of the LEDs (Mouser / Digikey) just say white without specifying color or temperature.  Their datasheets are just as bad.  The datasheet lists that different color temperatures are available, BUT the part number doesn't reflect any temperature selection.

[tszaboo]

Here is what I made. Turnout decoder for DCC.

[andy3055]

I am getting very jealous! 

[andy3055]

Here is what I made. Turnout decoder for DCC.

Make a bunch and sell them.

[MarkF]

I can't quite make out what it does.
I don't do DCC.  Just curious?

Does it just power the frog and diverging tracks? 
Does it throw the points?

Is that a MCU to decode the DCC?

[tszaboo]

Here is what I made. Turnout decoder for DCC.

Make a bunch and sell them.

I tried, there was very underwhelming response from everyone. I gave away a bunch to friends and family for now.

I can't quite make out what it does.
I don't do DCC.  Just curious?

Does it just power the frog and diverging tracks? 
Does it throw the points?

Is that a MCU to decode the DCC?

It drives the solenoid based turnout motors like these:

The whole frog thing... Most European brands as I understand have been making insulated frogs for decades now, so I honestly don't know which brands have this issue. Maybe older layouts.

[MarkF]

I believe most companies offer both insulated and electro- (metal) frogs.
My question would only apply to electro-frogs in which case the frog polarity
needs to change with the point positions.

The advantage of an electro-frog is to avoid loss of power going over the frog
for short locomotives or ones with only one set of pickups.

Most of my turnouts are Peco (who offers both types) with a few Shinohara.
The track is Peco flex track with brown ties.

[andy3055]

I believe most companies offer both insulated and electro- (metal) frogs.
My question would only apply to electro-frogs in which case the frog polarity
needs to change with the point positions.

The advantage of an electro-frog is to avoid loss of power going over the frog
for short locomotives or ones with only one set of pickups....
You should get a patent first. That is if it is a unique design.  Then, sell it to Atlas or Hornby or any other manufacturer.

[tszaboo]

I believe most companies offer both insulated and electro- (metal) frogs.
My question would only apply to electro-frogs in which case the frog polarity
needs to change with the point positions.

The advantage of an electro-frog is to avoid loss of power going over the frog
for short locomotives or ones with only one set of pickups.

Most of my turnouts are Peco (who offers both types) with a few Shinohara.
The track is Peco flex track with brown ties.

I'm familiar with the issue. I just don't see track layouts where the electro frogs are used. The Piko layout I have has isolated frog that actually makes a contract when you switch it. Marklin, Fleischmann and other Europena brands do the same as I understand. Peco, Atlas and other American brands do different things. So I wasn't going to add this functionality, as I tried to keep it simple and small.

You should get a patent first. That is if it is a unique design.  Then, sell it to Atlas or Hornby or any other manufacturer.

There isn't anything revolutionary about this, Marklin has turnouts that have the electronics built in, and as I understand Zimo accessory decoders for example can be programmed to do this. Al these companies have their internal engineering team, if they wanted something similar, they could do that easily. I mean it's a size of a loco DCC decoder with less functionality.

[joeqsmith]

My Lionel 2-6-2.  Like my old Marx, these are not worth a lot.  If you want to repair one, you may find a whole new engine is cheaper than that one part you need.      

I found two Lionel tinder cars in my stash but both were plastic in rough condition.  More so than my other bits.   

[andy3055]

The 3 rail system!

[joeqsmith]

Much newer plastic design from the 70s.   I don't recall how I melted it, but it doesn't look like a soldering iron mishap.  My trains had a rough life....

[joeqsmith]

Pull testing the Lionel 1666 after service.  The value in these trains is a reminder of a different time in my life.   When I handle these old relics, I wonder about the kids that came before me who had their fun with them. 

[andy3055]

If you use a fiberglass pen, you can clean the wheels very well.

[floobydust]

I wonder how much current the loco's use? Including the headlight and smoke generator.

O-scale train set I had, it was powered by a Louis Marx 1209 toy transformer. LV AC variac, no circuit breaker or fuse that I remember. It seems to have been a Marx train set, I'm not sure.
Made quite a few sparks on the tracks. Tried cleaning them with steel wool, uncle's idea. That lit up and started burning. Scared the shit out of me.
Then the figure-8 crossover shorted out intermittently and the track got red hot and smoked. The train set from hell lol. A manly model train, that's for sure.

Years later went N then HO and that was plastic baby in comparison.

[joeqsmith]

I had two different controllers.  One was a small cube.  It would run hot and smell.  If it was shorted, inside it had a thermal circuit breaker that would cycle.  First time I tripped it and lost all power, I was scared I had just ruined the train.

The other controller was older and much larger.  It had a light bulb for short circuit protection. 

Google search, looks like a lot more than I would have guessed.  Big layouts, lots of lamps....
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/what-is-a-good-estimate-of-the-max-amperage-that-would-support-most-o-gauge-trains

[tszaboo]

I wonder how much current the loco's use? Including the headlight and smoke generator.

O-scale train set I had, it was powered by a Louis Marx 1209 toy transformer. LV AC variac, no circuit breaker or fuse that I remember. It seems to have been a Marx train set, I'm not sure.
Made quite a few sparks on the tracks. Tried cleaning them with steel wool, uncle's idea. That lit up and started burning. Scared the shit out of me.
Then the figure-8 crossover shorted out intermittently and the track got red hot and smoked. The train set from hell lol. A manly model train, that's for sure.

Years later went N then HO and that was plastic baby in comparison.

H0 is typically less than 1A on full speed. I don't know the smoke generators because I'm not interested in old locos.

[andy3055]

Those older motors may be taking a bit more than that. Also, the moving parts are heavier than that of newer models, adding to the load.

[floobydust]

I had two different controllers.  One was a small cube.  It would run hot and smell.  If it was shorted, inside it had a thermal circuit breaker that would cycle.  First time I tripped it and lost all power, I was scared I had just ruined the train.

The other controller was older and much larger.  It had a light bulb for short circuit protection. 

Google search, looks like a lot more than I would have guessed.  Big layouts, lots of lamps....
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/what-is-a-good-estimate-of-the-max-amperage-that-would-support-most-o-gauge-trains

O-gauge is I think a brushed universal motor? No magnets that I can recall, and I thought AC.  In that thread they were saying up to 4A typical.

[joeqsmith]

Mine are brushed with wound stator and rotor (no permanent magnets).   I have been running them with a DC supply but the old controllers were 0-18VAC to run the motors.  In other words mine will run with AC or DC.  I did not measure the current when I was running them but can tell you that my supply was limited to 5A and they broke traction before folding back.  I started out testing with my 2A supply and it would fold back.   So for my engines, somewhere between there.   

[floobydust]

I noticed the old Lionels have no reverse? most were from the era before diodes and it's a mechanical thing to flip the field coil around, or add a bridge rectifier.
Or the third rail was used for that hmmm.

[joeqsmith]

All of mine had reverse.  Some had a bumper that would change the state of the switch (and rotate a little man on top) but most had the E-unit you show.  This includes all of the engines I have ran pull tests on. 

The two Marx engines have forward and reverse.  That Lionel has forward, neutral, reverse, neutral.  It can also be locked into the last state as your drawing shows.