Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...

[8086]

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/44889

Firstly, I would urge you to not sign. But I would like to know your thoughts.

Here's mine:

The government needs to ensure that the title of ‘Engineer’ is legally protected as it is in many other countries around the world, including Germany, France, USA and Canada. The title needs to be legally protected for Professional Engineers.
Protecting the title will:
-Increase the salaries of Engineers

Why? How? As far as I'm aware, engineers are already paid according to experience and qualifications. What will protecting the title change? I suspect the answer is 'nothing''

-Increase the respect society will have for Engineers

Again, why? And what does the 'respect' of 'society' have to do with engineering? It's more like the people supporting this want themselves to be the 'special ones', and have a protected title so that they can look down on the 'plebs' without one.

-Increase the number of youngsters wanting to pursue careers in Engineering

By protecting the title? Ludicrous suggestion. It won't change anything regarding the rate that children get interested in engineering.

-Increase the reputation of British Engineers once more

I wasn't aware that engineers had a bad reputation. It's more that the 'special ones' are annoyed at being grouped with the 'technicians', and don't feel quite as 'special' as they could if they had their very own title.

Society misunderstands what an Engineer actually does; they do NOT fix coffee machines and boilers.

As I just said - "we're more special than you!" It reeks of elitism - something that we do not need if we are to move forward as a society.

And, for full disclosure, I am someone who would supposedly benefit from protecting the title. But they want it for the wrong, and just plain incorrect reasons.

[Bored@Work]

Sounds really like they list all the wrong reasons. And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

[xrunner]

Do you want the trash men calling themselves "Sanitation Engineers"? 

[8086]

And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

[free_electron]

I fully agree the title 'engineer' should be protected.

It needs to be a reserved title for the person that is in charge of an engine ,as in steam-engine, running on parallel tracks.

Any other usage should be prohibited.
Let's protect our historic heritage !

[Bored@Work]

If you have a limit, or lets say a hurdle, you can raise or otherwise adjust the bar later. If you have no hurdle, well, you have nothing. And latest when it comes to safety issues you'd like to have some hurdle.

[8086]

What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

[Fsck]

Do you want the trash men calling themselves "Sanitation Engineers"? 

Along with Network Engineers and Software Engineers (the computer scientists).

P.Eng = Engineer, I'd agree with but I don't exactly know how that works in the UK. Same as how ScD/DSc or PhD = Dr. Or how lawyers, dentists, medical doctors are Dr in a professional setting.

[Corporate666]

And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.

In the USA, the term "engineer" is abused to high heaven.  We have sales engineers (salesman), operations engineers (secretary), quality engineers (quality control inspector), and more.  Engineers are supposed to be people who design important things and the title, IMO, should match the qualification of the individual.

Your argument can be turned around equally... is the inability to use the title "engineer" holding otherwise sharp, qualified individuals back in their career?  I don't think so.

IMO, the title should be protected.

[KJDS]

I really don't care how "engineer" gets used.

I don't think that having to jump over a hurdle when young will make any difference to any safety case. I do know that processes put in place to keep insurance companies happy have made a far bigger effect on industry practice than anything else I've seen related to risk management.

[edavid]

We have this regulation in the US, and it accomplishes nothing.   Engineers who are not PEs call themselves lower-case engineers, and the world goes on.

Also, the PE organizations don't really do anything if someone who is not a PE uses the title.  For example, there's an eBay seller who operates the "Registered Professional Engineer" store.  Guess what, he's not registered.

[Bored@Work]

I fully agree the title 'engineer' should be protected.

It needs to be a reserved title for the person that is in charge of an engine ,as in steam-engine, running on parallel tracks.

Any other usage should be prohibited.
Let's protect our historic heritage

Heritage? You call that a heritage? Pah! Latin ingenium - innate talent; ingeniarius - fortress master, engineer. Roman engineers were engineering stuff long before some grease monkey in the ashes of Provincia Britannia got his Latin wrong.

[Bored@Work]

What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

Our world is full of technical stuff that is highly dangerous, yet we use it daily and rarely anything happens. I like to see this stuff developed by people who have a clue. While some hurdle will not keep all idiots away, it will keep some idiots away, which is a start.

[8086]

And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.

There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

[KJDS]

What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

Our world is full of technical stuff that is highly dangerous, yet we use it daily and rarely anything happens. I like to see this stuff developed by people who have a clue. While some hurdle will not keep all idiots away, it will keep some idiots away, which is a start.

There are far better ways to put hurdles in the way than restricting the use of "Engineer"

[8086]

What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

Our world is full of technical stuff that is highly dangerous, yet we use it daily and rarely anything happens. I like to see this stuff developed by people who have a clue. While some hurdle will not keep all idiots away, it will keep some idiots away, which is a start.

It's already developed by people with the necessary skills. What would protecting a title change?

[Fsck]

And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.

There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

Anything signed Dr ___ is by a PhD.

An MD will sign Mr/Mrs/Ms _____ MD <bunch of acronyms>

[8086]

And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.

There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

Anything signed Dr ___ is by a PhD.

An MD will sign Mr/Mrs/Ms _____ MD <bunch of acronyms>

In the UK, MDs are usually Dr. and surgeons/consultants are usually Mr.

[Bored@Work]

What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

Our world is full of technical stuff that is highly dangerous, yet we use it daily and rarely anything happens. I like to see this stuff developed by people who have a clue. While some hurdle will not keep all idiots away, it will keep some idiots away, which is a start.

It's already developed by people with the necessary skills. What would protecting a title change?

Oh come on, existing things get changed, new things get developed. And don't tell me you don't have legal qualification requirements in the UK when it comes to the development of dangerous stuff. Otherwise, next time an elevator door opens in front of you you better hope the control logic was not done by a self styled engineer with a blinking Arduino. Stepping into the elevator shaft because the cabin is not there is not funny.

[8086]

What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

Our world is full of technical stuff that is highly dangerous, yet we use it daily and rarely anything happens. I like to see this stuff developed by people who have a clue. While some hurdle will not keep all idiots away, it will keep some idiots away, which is a start.

It's already developed by people with the necessary skills. What would protecting a title change?

Oh come on, existing things get changed, new things get developed. And don't tell me you don't have legal qualification requirements in the UK when it comes to the development of dangerous stuff. Otherwise, next time an elevator door opens in front of you you better hope the control logic was not done by a self styled engineer with a blinking Arduino. Stepping into the elevator shaft because the cabin is not there is not funny.

Things like that already are covered by law and must be produced to certain standards and inspected by a competent person, which the person you describe would not be.

[Fsck]

And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.

There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

Anything signed Dr ___ is by a PhD.

An MD will sign Mr/Mrs/Ms _____ MD <bunch of acronyms>

In the UK, MDs are usually Dr. and surgeons/consultants are usually Mr.

Can they change the title on their passport/drivers license to Dr with an MD, DDS, PharmD, JD?
These are professional doctorates in Canada and cannot sign Dr or change their legal title to it.

Also, how the hell do you become a surgeon without an MD?

[8086]

And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.

There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

Anything signed Dr ___ is by a PhD.

An MD will sign Mr/Mrs/Ms _____ MD <bunch of acronyms>

In the UK, MDs are usually Dr. and surgeons/consultants are usually Mr.

Can they change the title on their passport/drivers license to Dr with an MD, DDS, PharmD, JD?
These are professional doctorates in Canada and cannot sign Dr or change their legal title to it.

Also, how the hell do you become a surgeon without an MD?

I don't know about drivers licences, but you can put it on your passport.

You don't become a surgeon without an MD, that's my point. If you were a Dr. Bob, PhD, you could tell someone you're a doctor and they wouldn't know if you were medical or not. The title doesn't really help.

[KJDS]

I know of a drunkard who hasn't seen the inside of a church more than a handful of times whose driving license states that he is an archbishop. You can put anything on the application form.

Surgeons in the UK prefer to be referred to as Mr even though they are MD, which isn't a PhD, due to historical reasons explained far better here

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1119265/

[Fsck]

Then, your country is the problem. Whoever deals with policy has screwed you guys over.

I also forgot about chiropractors, vets, optometrists and probably a whole bunch of other things for professional doctorates.

[IntegratedValve]

Maybe I don't understand but lets say there are two people, one with an EE degree who has 10 years experience since graduation in professional sales of electronics equipment. The other has a degree in math but with 10 years experience as an electronic circuit designer. Now who gets the title and who gets the job?

Some people here mix between "blinking Arduino" hobbyists and serious circuit designers. Do you know how famous this "blinking Arduino" in university graduation projects? Or are we talking here about a different age group?