Product designers that have no idea of reality

[Circlotron]

We recently got a new washing machine, an LG front loader. As with probably all modern washing machines, it is completely controlled by software. That means the designer can do things that were totally impractical in the old days. I’d love to know though, why oh why, when the water is filling, does it have to turn the water supply on and off FOURTEEN TIMES??? Some of those are only 1/2 sec duration. The pipes in our house are a bit noisy, but it was tolerable with the old machine. With this one though I had to fit a water hammer damper thing. The point is though, what are some appliance designers smoking?

[amyk]

To wear out the valves sooner so they can charge you more to replace them?

[floobydust]

It could be firmware for the steamer, or some trick to use less water with the sprayer being switched on and off for more coverage? There's even a tub clean error code.
There are so many error messages and the state-machine so complex now, you really need a PC to view logs and see the sensors and trouble codes.

LG does some pretty weird stuff to get tiny efficiency improvements, look at their fridge linear compressor and the zillion moving parts... and the class-action lawsuit coming because they bagged after 3 years, not covered under the 10-year warranty. Metal chips in the piping. I would not buy their stuff.

Water-hammer is tough on all appliances and taps, it's good you added a damper.

[Andrew McNamara]

Fisher and Paykel used to use the incoming water supply to cool the drive electronics, although they also had a proportional cold valve (probably PWM'ed), so they could command just a gentle flow for cooling. If you bypass the lid interlock on an older F&P smartdrive, you'd actually see them run a small amount of water into the drum for cooling purposes while doing their high-speed spin.

[Circlotron]

We had one of those. Often used to wonder why small amounts of water would be periodically admitted during the wash cycle. Had to open it up and replace one of the push buttons on one occasion. Then it became clear.

[ConKbot]

I refuse to even consider buying washing machines that have problems with mold and bacterial growth despite having relatively strong bleach water in it regularly. Leaving the door open should be the only thing it needs to be fine. Or have they managed to stop using a crap gasket/seal design on front loaders yet? 

[james_s]

Some of them admit the water in smaller pulses, adding a little at a time and allowing it to soak into the clothes and giving the machine time to use whatever method it uses to determine the amount of water necessary. The idea is to use the minimum amount of water required for the load of clothes that is in it.

You might try installing some water hammer arrestors at the water supply behind the machine.

[Rerouter]

My best guess is water pressure compensation. Cycle the valve. Give it a few seconds to soak into the clothes a little. Check the float switch state and continue until ready

Also a second recommendation for an arrestor. You dont want to have a pipe fail in the wall because the pressure spike blows a weak section. (Did this at my parents house when I turned off a tap too quickly)

[ataradov]

I may also depend on the way you add detergent.  Some machines use separate trays for different cycles and they use small portions of water to wash the detergent from the trays.

[ataradov]

Then it became clear.

So what was it?

[Circlotron]

Then it became clear.

So what was it?

That an occasional flow of water was being used to cool the motor drive heat sink on the F&P machine while running.

[Mr. Scram]

A lot of the modern features are the result of attempts to make the machine more efficient. It's not unlikely there's some benefit to adding water slowly and in a more controlled fashion from either a water or energy point of view.

[floobydust]

Less water but ~30X the wear on the fill solenoids and the tiny SOT-223 triacs, shortening the washing machine's trip to the landfill.
Washing machines are over $1,000 and you are paying $1 a load just for the machine alone.

I know many people who replace their washing machine due to the high repair cost.  xxx's dollars to replace a sensor, board, solenoid etc.
Detergent clogging a valve, lint in the pressure sensor tubing, a bad pushbutton switch on the front panel... the machine gets thrown out into landfill.
It's great for manufacturers to keep selling new products. But higher environmental costs given less water and energy but more dumpster traffic.

[Mr. Scram]

Less water but ~30X the wear on the fill solenoids and the tiny SOT-223 triacs, shortening the washing machine's trip to the landfill.
Washing machines are over $1,000 and you are paying $1 a load just for the machine alone.

I know many people who replace their washing machine due to the high repair cost.  xxx's dollars to replace a sensor, board, solenoid etc.
Detergent clogging a valve, lint in the pressure sensor tubing, a bad pushbutton switch on the front panel... the machine gets thrown out into landfill.
It's great for manufacturers to keep selling new products. But higher environmental costs given less water and energy but more dumpster traffic.

There seem to be vast differences between manufacturers in that regard. Most machines provide faster and less economical programs which omit many of the environmental tricks.

[GK]

Or designers restricted by moronic environmental legislation. 

I recently gutted and renovated all of my wet areas. My 40 yo Caroma loo went to the dump and I ended up (after some shopping around in disbelief) compromising on a fancy new all-ceramic dunny with a 4.5L (full flush) cistern, fully compliant with current water-saving legislation.

There was one other dunny with a 6.5L flush (very rare now) but to offset that so as to retain its water-conserving stars, it had the most stupidly small water-holding bowl down the bottom, with a s-bend having a cross-sectional area barely big enough to pass a golf ball through. I just could not believe what I was looking at on the showroom floor. Who or what is supposed to shit in that thing? A toddler or your pet cat? WTF?

Since installing my brand new dunny several weeks ago I have not managed ONE SINGLE shit that could be fully dissapeared with just a single full flush. I think that I haven't been getting enough fiber in my diet lately and I did a bit of doozy Saturday afternoon. That big man poo took SIX full flushes to get rid of, - that's 27 liters of water! My trusty old Caroma would have gobbled down that turd in a single flush without so much as a burp and less than one third the water usage.

In addition to the increased water usage my new, modern so-called "water-conserving" toilet brings in reality, is an another inconvenience that I could happily live without . Because the bowl is designed to hold maybe only half (if that) the volume of water that the old Caroma did, the circumference at the waters edge is much smaller. This means that every damn crap starts sliding down the inside of the bowl from above the water line, mandating a clean up afterwards with the toilet brush every fucking time. And guess what? When you have a toilet brush full of crap you have to flush AGAIN to clean the fucking thing and waste more water again.

Starkly in contrast with my old beloved Caroma it was possible to sometimes briefly question ones sanity, because you'd stand and glance down up after being positively sure that you've dumped your load, but there would be nothing visible in the bowl. A damn ghost shit! - not obstructed by a stupidly narrow bottom of the bowl it would literally make its own way at least partly through the s-bend under the momentum of its own initial velocity.

Hope I haven't ruined anyone's dinner.

[soldar]

My washer does the same and I hate it. Furthermore, I have a "on demand" water heater which cannot start and stop like that. So I have just bypassed the washer's valves and fill the washer manually at the start of the cycle. I fill it in one go and probably somewhat higher than the washer would fill itself. After the washing is finished the rinsing does not do that.

The only one thing I really like about this washer is that it spins really well and the clothes come out almost dry.

[SparkyFX]

does it have to turn the water supply on and off FOURTEEN TIMES??? Some of those are only 1/2 sec duration.

3x for the 3 detergent types or if it is interrupted intentionally 6x
probably 3x additional flushing in between for exchanging the water, + additional flushing if selected

Thats at least 10x for a relatively basic program on a simple, old one.
If the heater is too limited to heat it all up at once or it might choose to not let the temp drop every time, it might break these up into smaller amounts.

Doesn´t help with the water hammer though. Got mine directly behind a water tap and behind the supplied leak stop device, that might help with it.

[Zero999]

Or designers restricted by moronic environmental legislation. 

I recently gutted and renovated all of my wet areas. My 40 yo Caroma loo went to the dump and I ended up (after some shopping around in disbelief) compromising on a fancy new all-ceramic dunny with a 4.5L (full flush) cistern, fully compliant with current water-saving legislation.

There was one other dunny with a 6.5L flush (very rare now) but to offset that so as to retain its water-conserving stars, it had the most stupidly small water-holding bowl down the bottom, with a s-bend having a cross-sectional area barely big enough to pass a golf ball through. I just could not believe what I was looking at on the showroom floor. Who or what is supposed to shit in that thing? A toddler or your pet cat? WTF?

Since installing my brand new dunny several weeks ago I have not managed ONE SINGLE shit that could be fully dissapeared with just a single full flush. I think that I haven't been getting enough fiber in my diet lately and I did a bit of doozy Saturday afternoon. That big man poo took SIX full flushes to get rid of, - that's 27 liters of water! My trusty old Caroma would have gobbled down that turd in a single flush without so much as a burp and less than one third the water usage.

In addition to the increased water usage my new, modern so-called "water-conserving" toilet brings in reality, is an another inconvenience that I could happily live without . Because the bowl is designed to hold maybe only half (if that) the volume of water that the old Caroma did, the circumference at the waters edge is much smaller. This means that every damn crap starts sliding down the inside of the bowl from above the water line, mandating a clean up afterwards with the toilet brush every fucking time. And guess what? When you have a toilet brush full of crap you have to flush AGAIN to clean the fucking thing and waste more water again.

Starkly in contrast with my old beloved Caroma it was possible to sometimes briefly question ones sanity, because you'd stand and glance down up after being positively sure that you've dumped your load, but there would be nothing visible in the bowl. A damn ghost shit! - unobstructed by a stupidly narrow bottom of the bowl it would literally make its own way at least partly through the s-bend under the momentum of its own initial velocity.

Hope I haven't ruined anyone's dinner.

I agree. I've also noticed that the more modern supposedly water saving toilets, require more flushes to get rid of the same shit, than the older ones, thus wasting more water!

I have a dual flush one (a small flush for piss and a big one for crap) but unless I hold the big flush down for a good second, it won't get rid of even the smallest of turds and a big fat log requires more than one flush!

[SparkyFX]

Hope I haven't ruined anyone's dinner.

Reminds me of a classic post in a german forum ... with discussion about diet and all that in there as well. And then there was a TV show that showed the standardized simulation crap manufacturers use to test their toilets...! 

[soldar]

Regarding toilet flushing, it is not only the amount of water but how fast it is dumped in the bowl. I often use a bucket of water because no tank can empty as fast in the bowl as a bucket of water. It also saves some water waste as I often have reasons to dump water which can be put in a bucket and used for the toilet.

Also the drain pipe counts. In one home I have one toilet in the master bedroom which flushes like a dream but the two other toilets in the house, although same model, do not flush as well and I believe it is the drain pipe not being so clear and straight down. Again, a sudden bucket of water does wonders.

[soldar]

I agree. I've also noticed that the more modern supposedly water saving toilets, require more flushes to get rid of the same shit, than the older ones, thus wasting more water!

I have a dual flush one (a small flush for piss and a big one for crap) but unless I hold the big flush down for a good second, it won't get rid of even the smallest of turds and a big fat log requires more than one flush!

I clog toilets so often everywhere I go that my wife says I shit square (turds) and that is why they clog the round toilets.

[Kalvin]

Hope I haven't ruined anyone's dinner.

Tnx, too late and too much information But I do agree that the modern product design is too much of aesthetics and supposed environment friendly, than real-life functionality and usability.

[Circlotron]

To all those that have mentioned it, I do have these fitted. Water hammer is now not a problem, just the repeated on and off of the incoming water during first fill is annoying.

[tszaboo]

Yeah, I have a machine from LG which is like that. The worst thing was that it doesn't work with those "flood guard" inlets. BTW, it was installed by the webshop I ordered it from, so they just used their standard piping. So sometimes it just stopped with an error because the flood guard detected a flood, and cut the water supply.

[GlennSprigg]

As an 'aside'....  Most 'smart' computer controlled washing M/C's these days, allow you to use
your 'SmartPhone' to communicate with it via WiFi/Bluetooth, to observe the process, & faults.
They MAY even allow you to 'change' certain aspects of the operation! (?).
Some though, are locked into say 'Android' & not 'iPhones', and need the latest version O.S.

[GK]

But I do agree that the modern product design is too much of aesthetics and supposed environment friendly, than real-life functionality and usability.

The manufactures know this themselves - my model toilet (being a bit upmarket and pretentious) came with a disclaimer-ish sheet written by the marketing department explaining away the inconveniences of the stupid contemporary design. It actually stated that a toilet brush will need to be used a little more often due to the requirement to retain less water in the bowl and that "large stools" will occasionally require an additional flush; so understating the reality (in my case anyway  ) in addition to making clear that this is all due to stringent and "necessary" water-saving design legislation/standards which the manufacturer continuously strives to comply with, with the "utmost efficiency", or words to that effect (blah, blah, blah).

Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but I really don't feel like I'm living in a more civilized age when getting rid of a shit is turned into more of a chore than it needs to be. And with more water usage than ever; it's BS like this that can occasionally make one feel that the world is just getting dumber and dumber. Another modern bathroom appliance in that vein that comes to mind is the Dyson "Air Blade" hand pseudo-dryer, which is the exact opposite of what it's supposed to be. Honestly this thing has got to be the dumbest heap of shit ever. We have them at work, but fortunately paper hand towels are also provided because, well, some people with disability or some unduly short havn't a hope in hell of maneuvering their hands into the stupid thing.

I tried one once. I was immediately showered in the face with a light mist of water which didn't come from my hands, because I had shaken them beforehand and they just weren't that wet. This moronic contraption doesn't use heat, but is supposed to blow the water off your skin, but there is no where for this water to go. With heavy use water just pools up in the bottom of the V (and drips from there and additionally pools on the floor under the dryer). It was that water pooled in the V, collected from perhaps a dozen people before me, blown around, that was lightly misting my face. Absolutely f%$#ing disgusting! And the dumb heap of shit didn't properly dry my hands or even touch any water above my wrists as I simply couldn't lower my hands any further without risk of touching the disgusting thing.   
 

https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/04/dyson-dryers-hurl-60x-more-viruses-most-at-kid-face-height-than-other-dryers/

[james_s]

The toilets are like those idiotic stop/start systems in so many modern cars. They exist to exploit loopholes in the mandated efficiency testing. It doesn't matter if they offer any real world savings, they're engineered to pass the specific tests. I'm not against environmental regulations in general but sometimes they go too far and are not well thought through. The people writing the regulations are not engineers and don't understand how the devices they are regulating work.

[larrybl]

So glad I found this thread as I have the same issue. Bought a new manufactured home, and a new "Roper brand" washer and dryer last year. When the washer fills there is a hammering in the wall of the master bath. I talked with the company and this is not considered a warranty issue. They have replaced a defective toilet and corrected other issues as presented. I found this local for $12.95 and will try it (X 2) and see if this helps.

[wraper]

To wear out the valves sooner so they can charge you more to replace them?

Very likely they will last longer. IME valves usually fail not because of mechanical wear but because of deposits/contamination.

[wraper]

That an occasional flow of water was being used to cool the motor drive heat sink on the F&P machine while running.

How did you came up with such nonsense conclusion? Motor driver heatsink in LG is certainly not immersed in water and there is no such heat that would require this. Not to say they do not add water regularly enough to be of any help. Did you confuse dryer with motor driver? Otherwise I don't get it.

[rsjsouza]

I am a user of LG front load washer for 13 years now, working at least a couple of times per week for all this time without skipping a beat. I had noticed these short bursts as well and the water pressure is incredibly high where I live. In my case, the solution was similar: limit the water intake at the point of entry.

@GK, thanks for the laugh. Your depiction of details was quite funny.

[tooki]

We recently got a new washing machine, an LG front loader. As with probably all modern washing machines, it is completely controlled by software. That means the designer can do things that were totally impractical in the old days. I’d love to know though, why oh why, when the water is filling, does it have to turn the water supply on and off FOURTEEN TIMES??? Some of those are only 1/2 sec duration. The pipes in our house are a bit noisy, but it was tolerable with the old machine. With this one though I had to fit a water hammer damper thing. The point is though, what are some appliance designers smoking?

It's a) to fight stains and b) to save water.

A) because the first bit of water is to flush in the detergent and saturate the clothes with concentrated detergent to do a sort of stain-busting phase before adding the rest of the water.

B) is to minimize the total water used (since total water not only affects water usage, but dramatically affects energy usage, since heating the water is what's responsible for the lion's share of the energy use in washing clothes). By adding it little by little, giving the clothes the chance to tumble and absorb water, and monitoring how much the water level does (or doesn't) rise a few moments after adding water, the machine avoids adding more water than is needed to saturate the clothes.


P.S. This is a good reminder that just because you don't know why something works the way it does doesn't mean the engineers were high, mmkay?

[tooki]

My washer does the same and I hate it. Furthermore, I have a "on demand" water heater which cannot start and stop like that. So I have just bypassed the washer's valves and fill the washer manually at the start of the cycle. I fill it in one go and probably somewhat higher than the washer would fill itself. After the washing is finished the rinsing does not do that.

The only one thing I really like about this washer is that it spins really well and the clothes come out almost dry.

If, like most (all?) European washers, your washer has a built-in heater, then consider only using the cold water inlet and letting the washer do all the heating.

[soldar]

If, like most (all?) European washers, your washer has a built-in heater, then consider only using the cold water inlet and letting the washer do all the heating.

The cost of heating the water using electricity is much higher due to the stupidly high cost of electricity in Spain and I happen to have very cheap natural gas. Also, loading the washer with hot water means not having to wait for it to heat up.

[soldar]

Water hammer arrestors are a good idea. When renovating I would install a blind, vertical section of pipe to act as hammer arrestor.

Commercially available arrestors have a bladder to prevent the air from dissolving in the water but the amount of air is quite small. If you install a length of pipe you will have more air but it may eventually dissolve in the water if the water itself does not bring enough air with it in which case you would need to empty the water once in a while and let some more air in.

And the bladders end up failing as well. Nothing is eternal. At one time I had an upside-down clear glass bottle as a hammer arrestor so I could see the water level inside.

[Zero999]

If, like most (all?) European washers, your washer has a built-in heater, then consider only using the cold water inlet and letting the washer do all the heating.

The cost of heating the water using electricity is much higher due to the stupidly high cost of electricity in Spain and I happen to have very cheap natural gas. Also, loading the washer with hot water means not having to wait for it to heat up.

Older washing machines also used to have the option of taking water from the central heating system, if available. There would be two inlets: one hot and the other cold. Having a single cold feed is a step backwards efficiency wise, in places where the water is heated by natural gas or a heat pump. No doubt it's to cut cost, rather than save electricity.

A continuously variable valve should be used, rather than a digital one, so the flow rate can be adjusted to the optimum level, rather than hammering the pipes.

[wraper]

A continuously variable valve should be used, rather than a digital one, so the flow rate can be adjusted to the optimum level, rather than hammering the pipes.

And who is going to pay for that (no idea of reality)? Not to say it would mean dramatically reduced valve reliability, especially when water is not very clean.

[KL27x]

I had an automatic wet brush/vac carpet spot cleaner. You load it with water/detergent solution set it down, and press a button. The rest is fully automatic. It makes a bit of a racket when in operation...

... so obviously the designer had to use an even louder piezo buzzer to alert when the thing is done with its 5 minute cleaning cycle. The alert is, of course, at a piercing high frequency for cost/efficiency reasons. And it naturally repeats, indefinitely, until the user presses a button to confirm that the message was received. Else how would anyone know it was finished?

It doubles as an egg timer in a construction zone.

[dzseki]

Having a single cold feed is a step backwards efficiency wise, in places where the water is heated by natural gas or a heat pump. No doubt it's to cut cost, rather than save electricity.

Nobody gives a damn about that providing it gets the A+++++++ badge 

[soldar]

A continuously variable valve should be used, rather than a digital one, so the flow rate can be adjusted to the optimum level, rather than hammering the pipes.

Not going to happen. a solenoid valve is cheap, simple and dependable. It uses a very small solenoid and uses the pressure of the water itself to maintain the valve closed. I suppose you could complicate it with a damper but it is not worth the trouble. I suppose you could include a hammer arrestor in the washing machine itself. That would not be difficult.

[jmelson]

I’d love to know though, why oh why, when the water is filling, does it have to turn the water supply on and off FOURTEEN TIMES???

OK, our machine (not LG) has a bunch of dispensers that use water.  So, there is a main fill port, and then valves for the detergent dispenser, bleach dispenser and softener dispenser.  You pour a whole bunch of stuff into these dispensers, and it figures out how much water to run into those dispensers to add that product to the water.  It may switch around so as not to add too much bleach all at one time.

Jon

[floobydust]

It's a) to fight stains and b) to save water.
A) because the first bit of water is to flush in the detergent and saturate the clothes with concentrated detergent to do a sort of stain-busting phase before adding the rest of the water.
...
P.S. This is a good reminder that just because you don't know why something works the way it does doesn't mean the engineers were high, mmkay?

I don't agree - concentrated detergent is murder on dyes, nobody likes their clothes fading. Pre-soak does better.
Whatever is taking 14 squirts seems to be a primitive (cheap) way to dispense water and detergent in the washer.

The LG Wi-Fi app and connection the Google home or Alexa, I can't see the use.
Is this IoT gone stupid, or corporate datamining and analytics on your underwear?
Does my washing machine need to access my contacts and text messages? 
It's too bad the product development dollars don't go into making the appliance last longer.

[Alex Eisenhut]

I miss my old GE top loader with the Filter-Flo agitator and centrifugal clutch. That thing needed about half an Olympic swimming pool's worth of water to clean five towels and some underwear but everything was repairable.
But it weighed like 300 pounds or something like it, the transmission under the tub looked bigger than some car transmissions I've seen.

So when I moved I reluctantly left it behind. Now I have the same front-loader like everyone else, it also does that weird pulsing of the water.

You want weird firmware, try printing one page on a Brother MFC-9340CDW. The fan powers up and down up and down up and down and it sounds like the rollers start and stop a few times before finally printing a page, then the fan starts and stops a few more times before stopping for good.

Like, 

[james_s]

I'm not sure about the fan, but I'd bet the rollers starting and stopping multiple times is down to them using one motor to drive a bunch of different functions via solenoid clutches. Motors are relatively expensive but when building vast quantities of something plastic gears and mechanisms are cheap.

[Circlotron]

That an occasional flow of water was being used to cool the motor drive heat sink on the F&P machine while running.

How did you came up with such nonsense conclusion? Motor driver heatsink in LG is certainly not immersed in water and there is no such heat that would require this. Not to say they do not add water regularly enough to be of any help. Did you confuse dryer with motor driver? Otherwise I don't get it.

The water cooled heatsink was on a Fisher & Paykel Smart Drive 701 top loading machine, not the LG front loader. Had 6 IRF840 mosfets plus other stuff on an extruded heatsink that had a ~12mm hole along it's length. Water would pass from the solenoid valves through the length of this heatsink then do a right angle via a small rubber elbow and into the top of the bowl. Couldn't find a pic of the uncovered assembly, and my machine is long gone, but I did find the following pic. Note the valves are on the left and there is a connection passing through to the electronics. Of course, a leak would have spelled disaster...

[james_s]

I had an automatic wet brush/vac carpet spot cleaner. You load it with water/detergent solution set it down, and press a button. The rest is fully automatic. It makes a bit of a racket when in operation...

... so obviously the designer had to use an even louder piezo buzzer to alert when the thing is done with its 5 minute cleaning cycle. The alert is, of course, at a piercing high frequency for cost/efficiency reasons. And it naturally repeats, indefinitely, until the user presses a button to confirm that the message was received. Else how would anyone know it was finished?

Reminds me of my Roombas. Fantastic contraptions overall but they have the most irritating feature. If it gets stuck, the battery is low or there is some kind of fault, it sits there beeping loudly every 30 seconds or so for at least 10 minutes, it's maddening! As if I didn't notice that the thing had stopped, and then like it's some kind of emergency. It makes me want to yell at the thing to shut the @#&$ up! I'll get to it when I get to it!

[Sceptre]

The toilets are like those idiotic stop/start systems in so many modern cars.

Toto Drake II toilets work great!
Stop/start technology is absolutely brilliant - eliminating the needless idling at stop lights and in traffic jams is one of the greatest automotive advances of the past 50 years.

[vk6zgo]

The toilets are like those idiotic stop/start systems in so many modern cars.

Toto Drake II toilets work great!
Stop/start technology is absolutely brilliant - eliminating the needless idling at stop lights and in traffic jams is one of the greatest automotive advances of the past 50 years.

They had much of the concept "nutted out" back in the 1930s with the "Startex" ignition system, which was intended to restart your car if the engine stopped.

The reason for this was the then current rage for "freewheel" systems, which disengaged the clutch to "freewheel" down hills.

The problem was that some manufacturers actually turned the ignition off during this time, whereas in other cases, the engine, as it was not turning over in the classic "engine braking" mode, sometimes would not restart when the clutch re-engaged.
Startex would operate the starter briefly, whilst applying ignition to ensure the engine restarted.

If your car stalled in traffic, Startex would start it again, too.
It isn't a major step conceptually, to today's systems that turn off & back on on purpose.

"Freewheel" was discarded due to the safety aspects, & cars rarely stalled in traffic, so Startex was abandoned.

After that, it was pretty much "an idea looking for an application", the electromechanical stuff used to achieve it was complex, & it needed the advances which have taken place since to be really satisfactory.

[tooki]

If, like most (all?) European washers, your washer has a built-in heater, then consider only using the cold water inlet and letting the washer do all the heating.

The cost of heating the water using electricity is much higher due to the stupidly high cost of electricity in Spain and I happen to have very cheap natural gas.

But then how much hot water gets wasted? (In the form of hot water in the pipes that cools off.) It may or may not be saving you money in the end. Remember that a modern washer uses extremely little hot water in the wash phase (like around 10l for a medium size load). Unless the washer is right next to the hot water heater, there might be that much just in the pipes...

Also, loading the washer with hot water means not having to wait for it to heat up.

The enzymes in modern detergents don't need high temperatures, and in fact some of the enzymes are deactivated by heat. The detergents are, in fact, designed to do different things at different temperatures, so it's actually desirable for the wash to heat slowly.

[tooki]

It's a) to fight stains and b) to save water.
A) because the first bit of water is to flush in the detergent and saturate the clothes with concentrated detergent to do a sort of stain-busting phase before adding the rest of the water.
...
P.S. This is a good reminder that just because you don't know why something works the way it does doesn't mean the engineers were high, mmkay?

I don't agree - concentrated detergent is murder on dyes, nobody likes their clothes fading. Pre-soak does better.
Whatever is taking 14 squirts seems to be a primitive (cheap) way to dispense water and detergent in the washer.

There's nothing here for you to opine on, really: I wasn't weighing in on whether I agree with the reasons (though I do), but rather just enumerating them for the OP, who had no clue.

But as for detergent concentration: high concentration for literally 3-5 mins isn't going to kill the dyes. But it will help dissolve fats.

As for the multiple squirts of water, it's a simple and fairly reliable way to saturate the laundry without wasting water, and without needing really complex sensors. (A weight sensor alone won't work, since different fabrics have different absorbency, plus you have no way of knowing whether any laundry was put in wet, e.g. after a manual soaking or pretreatment.)

[soldar]

This is a good reminder that just because you don't know why something works the way it does doesn't mean the engineers were high, mmkay?

I agree with this but it also doesn't mean the engineers always get it right.

And sometimes things which may be justified from a technical point of view can be annoying to the consumer.

And I realize many things change to satisfy the public at large even though they may be annoying to me in particular. The manufacturers are looking for the large market share, not outliers.

But then how much hot water gets wasted? (In the form of hot water in the pipes that cools off.) It may or may not be saving you money in the end. Remember that a modern washer uses extremely little hot water in the wash phase (like around 10l for a medium size load). Unless the washer is right next to the hot water heater, there might be that much just in the pipes...

Not a consideration in my case although I acknowledge that it might be relevant in most cases.

The enzymes in modern detergents don't need high temperatures, and in fact some of the enzymes are deactivated by heat. The detergents are, in fact, designed to do different things at different temperatures, so it's actually desirable for the wash to heat slowly.

This is all very well but we have turned doing a load of washing into a high-tech process where I have lost control whereas thirty years ago it was simpler and I had total control.

Now I give my clothes to the washer and I lose control of what happens. I cannot add clothes, I cannot speed up the process, I cannot do anything but submit to the higher authority of the washer and humbly collect my clothes when the washer is ready to return them.

I used to be able to have much more control over my washer and I liked it that way. Again, this is just me; I realize the big market consumers may prefer the way things are going now.

When I have a very small load of maybe just some underwear I will just do it manually in one of those big plastic paint buckets rather than use the washer. In fact, I have been thinking of inventing some way to hang the bucket and have a small motor shake it a bit. Maybe I should open a thread to discuss this

[wraper]

Now I give my clothes to the washer and I lose control of what happens. I cannot add clothes, I cannot speed up the process, I cannot do anything but submit to the higher authority of the washer and humbly collect my clothes when the washer is ready to return them.

I used to be able to have much more control over my washer and I liked it that way. Again, this is just me; I realize the big market consumers may prefer the way things are going now.

When I have a very small load of maybe just some underwear I will just do it manually in one of those big plastic paint buckets rather than use the washer. In fact, I have been thinking of inventing some way to hang the bucket and have a small motor shake it a bit. Maybe I should open a thread to discuss this

You should buy one as on the video. The fact is that when manually doing your very small load you'll most likely spend more water than modern washing machine.

https://youtu.be/ouri6W7dgvM

[onesixright]

I’d love to know though, why oh why, when the water is filling, does it have to turn the water supply on and off FOURTEEN TIMES???

What’s the time frame in which this occurs?


Sent from my X using Tapatalk

[Circlotron]

I’d love to know though, why oh why, when the water is filling, does it have to turn the water supply on and off FOURTEEN TIMES???

What’s the time frame in which this occurs?

Felt like about 3 minutes from start to finish. I'll try to remember to time it next time.

[onesixright]

I’d love to know though, why oh why, when the water is filling, does it have to turn the water supply on and off FOURTEEN TIMES???

What’s the time frame in which this occurs?

Felt like about 3 minutes from start to finish. I'll try to remember to time it next time.

Yeah, I feel it would be important. If its during the complete cycle is not that bad. But if only a few minutes 

[soldar]

You should buy one as on the video. The fact is that when manually doing your very small load you'll most likely spend more water than modern washing machine.

Yes, I have considered a mini clothes washer and I might get one some day. It seems interesting but I always have a feeling that it is the kind of thing which cannot be repaired and has to be thrown away as soon as it fails.

For now, for very small loads the bucket works for me. I would just add some jiggling to it but other than that I do not mind filling and emptying by hand. To give it some movement with little energy I let it hang while I hold the handle in my hand and I give it a swirling motion. It takes very little energy and I have been thinking how I could duplicate it with a small motor.

[gildasd]

Water hammer arrestors are a good idea. When renovating I would install a blind, vertical section of pipe to act as hammer arrestor.

Commercially available arrestors have a bladder to prevent the air from dissolving in the water but the amount of air is quite small. If you install a length of pipe you will have more air but it may eventually dissolve in the water if the water itself does not bring enough air with it in which case you would need to empty the water once in a while and let some more air in.

And the bladders end up failing as well. Nothing is eternal. At one time I had an upside-down clear glass bottle as a hammer arrestor so I could see the water level inside.

Installing blind pipes is a bit of a no no especially if it can sustain an air pocket, because of Pontiac disease and all that.

[james_s]

Water hammer arrestors are a good idea. When renovating I would install a blind, vertical section of pipe to act as hammer arrestor.

Commercially available arrestors have a bladder to prevent the air from dissolving in the water but the amount of air is quite small. If you install a length of pipe you will have more air but it may eventually dissolve in the water if the water itself does not bring enough air with it in which case you would need to empty the water once in a while and let some more air in.

And the bladders end up failing as well. Nothing is eternal. At one time I had an upside-down clear glass bottle as a hammer arrestor so I could see the water level inside.

Installing blind pipes is a bit of a no no especially if it can sustain an air pocket, because of Pontiac disease and all that.

I've never heard of Pontiac disease, but blind pipe sections that hold an air pocket is the standard way it has been done in the US for years, at least with copper pipe. Typically you'll find a 9-12" capped stub behind the wall extending about a foot above the shutoff valves for the individual fixtures.

Now days I think most new construction is using pex pipe though where this is probably not necessary and given pex is not anti-microbial the way copper is it might cause problems.

[Stray Electron]

Less water but ~30X the wear on the fill solenoids and the tiny SOT-223 triacs, shortening the washing machine's trip to the landfill.
Washing machines are over $1,000 and you are paying $1 a load just for the machine alone.

I know many people who replace their washing machine due to the high repair cost.  xxx's dollars to replace a sensor, board, solenoid etc.
Detergent clogging a valve, lint in the pressure sensor tubing, a bad pushbutton switch on the front panel... the machine gets thrown out into landfill.
It's great for manufacturers to keep selling new products. But higher environmental costs given less water and energy but more dumpster traffic.

   Constantly failing electronic controls are exactly why I replaced my old washer a few years ago with one made by Speed Queen.  SQ still makes washers that use an electromechanical timer and plain electromechanical float switches and solenoid valves. Oh and it's top loader too so no problems with mold or mildew. 

[james_s]

I used top loaders for years but after I got a front loader about 10 years ago I'd never want to go back. I can fit more in it, I don't have to untangle things from the agitator, my clothes last longer, and it uses about half the energy per cycle according to my Kill A Watt. I'm not sure what I'd buy if I were shopping today though, there are a lot of fancy looking machines that are very cheaply built.

[Stray Electron]

Installing blind pipes is a bit of a no no especially if it can sustain an air pocket, because of Pontiac disease and all that.

  Pontiac disease is transferred by air borne water droplets or soil containing Legionella bacteria.  You're not going to get it from a sealed water system.

  When I work on the plumbing in my house, I replace the water pipe elbows nearest each faucet with a T fitting and install a blind vertical pipe about 18" long to act as an air chamber.  I have NO water hammering and I have far more plumbing than most since I have a water well with an in ground pump, a large solar hot water collector, automatic lawn sprinklers and many other solenoid operated valves in the plumbing system.

[wraper]

SQ still makes washers that use an electromechanical timer and plain electromechanical float switches and solenoid valves.

I find them even less reliable.

Oh and it's top loader too so no problems with mold or mildew.

How does it make any difference?

[floobydust]

"...a software bug was directing the {LG} washer to use so little water that it was unable to clean our laundry and left stains remaining" Consumers Reports flunked LG WM3170CW; after April 2015 there is new software. What's the latest rev? Where's the service manual? Where's my right to repair?
Fake LG warranty "10 years for the drum motor (stator, rotor, hall sensor)" and 1 year for all the rest.

Use of non-HE detergent apparently kills the drum bearings in any front-loading washer. Also the drum spider arms corrode and break on Whirlpool, Samsung, LG etc.
Replacing LG washing machine fill solenoids, Youtube videos 175K views.

I could go on and on but appliances are over-dependent on the embedded system to generate features and sell points. The complexity is so great that service and repair is difficult and these machines are disposable now.

[soldar]

Installing blind pipes is a bit of a no no especially if it can sustain an air pocket, because of Pontiac disease and all that.

I had never heard of "Pontiac disease" and now I find out it is the same thing as legionella. As others have already said, installing blind risers is standard in many countries and you cannot get legionella from it. At least I have never heard of a case.

The main problem with blind risers is that the air can dissolve in the water. I do not have that problem because my water brings enough air with it but it could happen. They also sell devices with a bladder in them but they are (obviously) more expensive and the bladders fail after some years.

[soldar]

I bought a clothes washer in 1972 with electro-mechanical timer, obviously. With a few repairs it lasted for decades and I finally had to replace it when I could not find replacement for the bellows (front loader). The rubber bellows had cracked at the bottom and water would leak. It lasted a good 40 years with a few repairs I did myself but finally no replacement bellows meant it could no longer be repaired. It is now in my garage. I rotated the bellows so the crack is at the top and it can drip a bit but I can still use it in the garage if I want to. The timer, the valves, everything is working fine.

The new washer spins better, faster and quieter. The old one jumps in the air when it starts spinning. Other than that any of the two work fine for me.

The old one is easier to repair as it is simpler. The day the electronics in the new one dies I'll probably have to dump the whole thing. And probably revert to the old one.

[GreyWoolfe]

We had a poor experience with a front loader that used to make Mrs GreyWoolfe grind her teeth.  Now we have a Maytag commercial top loader and dryer that work much better and no mold smell and no IoT idiocy. 

To give it some movement with little energy I let it hang while I hold the handle in my hand and I give it a swirling motion. It takes very little energy and I have been thinking how I could duplicate it with a small motor.

Here you go, already invented and it becomes a multitasker!!!!

[tooki]

This is a good reminder that just because you don't know why something works the way it does doesn't mean the engineers were high, mmkay?

I agree with this but it also doesn't mean the engineers always get it right.

And sometimes things which may be justified from a technical point of view can be annoying to the consumer.

And I realize many things change to satisfy the public at large even though they may be annoying to me in particular. The manufacturers are looking for the large market share, not outliers.

But then how much hot water gets wasted? (In the form of hot water in the pipes that cools off.) It may or may not be saving you money in the end. Remember that a modern washer uses extremely little hot water in the wash phase (like around 10l for a medium size load). Unless the washer is right next to the hot water heater, there might be that much just in the pipes...

Not a consideration in my case although I acknowledge that it might be relevant in most cases.

The enzymes in modern detergents don't need high temperatures, and in fact some of the enzymes are deactivated by heat. The detergents are, in fact, designed to do different things at different temperatures, so it's actually desirable for the wash to heat slowly.

This is all very well but we have turned doing a load of washing into a high-tech process where I have lost control whereas thirty years ago it was simpler and I had total control.

Now I give my clothes to the washer and I lose control of what happens. I cannot add clothes, I cannot speed up the process, I cannot do anything but submit to the higher authority of the washer and humbly collect my clothes when the washer is ready to return them.

I used to be able to have much more control over my washer and I liked it that way. Again, this is just me; I realize the big market consumers may prefer the way things are going now.

When I have a very small load of maybe just some underwear I will just do it manually in one of those big plastic paint buckets rather than use the washer. In fact, I have been thinking of inventing some way to hang the bucket and have a small motor shake it a bit. Maybe I should open a thread to discuss this

Sounds to me like you need to try some modern washers. The Siemens machine in my apartment lets me add clothes at any time, speed up (at higher energy cost) the cycle, or slow it down and save energy, and has cycles to support washing just a single item or two.

[soldar]

Sounds to me like you need to try some modern washers. The Siemens machine in my apartment lets me add clothes at any time, speed up (at higher energy cost) the cycle, or slow it down and save energy, and has cycles to support washing just a single item or two.

Yes, like politicians, first they create the problem which did not exist before, and later they resolve the problem that they themselves created.

[langwadt]

Now I give my clothes to the washer and I lose control of what happens. I cannot add clothes, I cannot speed up the process, I cannot do anything but submit to the higher authority of the washer and humbly collect my clothes when the washer is ready to return them.

I used to be able to have much more control over my washer and I liked it that way. Again, this is just me; I realize the big market consumers may prefer the way things are going now.

When I have a very small load of maybe just some underwear I will just do it manually in one of those big plastic paint buckets rather than use the washer. In fact, I have been thinking of inventing some way to hang the bucket and have a small motor shake it a bit. Maybe I should open a thread to discuss this

You should buy one as on the video. The fact is that when manually doing your very small load you'll most likely spend more water than modern washing machine.

https://youtu.be/ouri6W7dgvM

https://i.redd.it/cecjw83edez21.gif

[Stray Electron]

SQ still makes washers that use an electromechanical timer and plain electromechanical float switches and solenoid valves.

I find them even less reliable.

Oh and it's top loader too so no problems with mold or mildew.

How does it make any difference?

 1)  I don't. I've never had to replace or repair one but I guess it depends on how clean your incoming water is. Also the chlorine level in the water could be a problem.  Since I'm on a well, I do have some fine sand in the water but I have replaceable element water filer on the water line coming into the house and a second one on the cold water inlet to the washer (it gets double filtered).

2)  Top loader means that the water drain is in the bottom of the tub and it drains better than a side loader. I've never heard of a top loader having mold or mildew or odor problems but those are common in side loaders.

[wraper]

2)  Top loader means that the water drain is in the bottom of the tub and it drains better than a side loader. I've never heard of a top loader having mold or mildew or odor problems but those are common in side loaders.

And where do you think front loaders have water drain located, on top?  Googling shows enough of top loader pictures with mold.

[edy]

2)  Top loader means that the water drain is in the bottom of the tub and it drains better than a side loader. I've never heard of a top loader having mold or mildew or odor problems but those are common in side loaders.

And where do you think front loaders have water drain located, on top?  Googling shows enough of top loader pictures with mold.

I think the issue with side-loaders is that mold develops in the GASKET that lines the door, as it has a whole bunch of little grooves and drain holes and water gets in that gasket. That happened to my machine even though we took meticulous care of it, and it ended up being the subject of a class-action lawsuit (https://www.consumerreports.org/washing-machines/settlement-in-front-loader-mold-case/) which of course was settled in the USA but never was applied to anyone in Canada (we are always getting screwed this way). Top-loaders wouldn't have that door gasket issue.

[free_electron]

this moldy gasket problem is weird to me. In europe almost all machines are front loaders, and they never have issues with mold.

[tooki]

Sounds to me like you need to try some modern washers. The Siemens machine in my apartment lets me add clothes at any time, speed up (at higher energy cost) the cycle, or slow it down and save energy, and has cycles to support washing just a single item or two.

Yes, like politicians, first they create the problem which did not exist before, and later they resolve the problem that they themselves created.

What are you babbling about? The appliance makers never wanted the strict efficiency standards, that was entirely the politicians’ doing.

Besides, you totally missed the point: YOUR washer might not give you those options, but there definitely are models that do, and this is nothing new.

[james_s]

I could go on and on but appliances are over-dependent on the embedded system to generate features and sell points. The complexity is so great that service and repair is difficult and these machines are disposable now.

That's similar to everything and it all comes down to cost. Look up what a good quality washing machine cost in say 1975, then look up what the average wage was back then. I suspect you'll find that a basic washer and dryer cost more back then than a top of the line set does today when adjusted for inflation. Major appliances were a major investment in the past, they were made to last and most people kept a set for 20+ years.

People are addicted to cheap crap, the average person doesn't look at the long term, they just see what it costs now, and what fancy features it touts. It's a race to the bottom that affects all of us because everyone starts cutting corners to compete.

[soldar]

2)  Top loader means that the water drain is in the bottom of the tub and it drains better than a side loader. I've never heard of a top loader having mold or mildew or odor problems but those are common in side loaders.

I have never, ever had mold problems on any washer of any type. And, just FYI, all washers have the drain in the bottom because that is the way gravity works. Everywhere.

Washers are conceptually very simple and basic.

[soldar]

I think the issue with side-loaders is that mold develops in the GASKET that lines the door, as it has a whole bunch of little grooves and drain holes and water gets in that gasket. That happened to my machine even though we took meticulous care of it, and it ended up being the subject of a class-action lawsuit

I am assuming by "side-loader" you mean "front loader" because I have never heard the term "side loader".

I have never had any problem with mold in the bellows. The bellows has a drain tube and water should not accumulate there unless the tube is plugged. In any case, suppose you have a bellows with no drain or plugged drain, all you need to do is dry it with a cloth after using the washer, or spray a bit of bleach, or ... I dunno, it seems we are getting to the point where consumers are so stupid they will have trouble finding and wiping their own butts.

[soldar]

What are you babbling about?

Yo Momma.

[tooki]

What are you babbling about?

Yo Momma.

What are you, twelve?

[JVR]

Or designers restricted by moronic environmental legislation. 

I recently gutted and renovated all of my wet areas. My 40 yo Caroma loo went to the dump and I ended up (after some shopping around in disbelief) compromising on a fancy new all-ceramic dunny with a 4.5L (full flush) cistern, fully compliant with current water-saving legislation.

There was one other dunny with a 6.5L flush (very rare now) but to offset that so as to retain its water-conserving stars, it had the most stupidly small water-holding bowl down the bottom, with a s-bend having a cross-sectional area barely big enough to pass a golf ball through. I just could not believe what I was looking at on the showroom floor. Who or what is supposed to shit in that thing? A toddler or your pet cat? WTF?

Since installing my brand new dunny several weeks ago I have not managed ONE SINGLE shit that could be fully dissapeared with just a single full flush. I think that I haven't been getting enough fiber in my diet lately and I did a bit of doozy Saturday afternoon. That big man poo took SIX full flushes to get rid of, - that's 27 liters of water! My trusty old Caroma would have gobbled down that turd in a single flush without so much as a burp and less than one third the water usage.

In addition to the increased water usage my new, modern so-called "water-conserving" toilet brings in reality, is an another inconvenience that I could happily live without . Because the bowl is designed to hold maybe only half (if that) the volume of water that the old Caroma did, the circumference at the waters edge is much smaller. This means that every damn crap starts sliding down the inside of the bowl from above the water line, mandating a clean up afterwards with the toilet brush every fucking time. And guess what? When you have a toilet brush full of crap you have to flush AGAIN to clean the fucking thing and waste more water again.

Starkly in contrast with my old beloved Caroma it was possible to sometimes briefly question ones sanity, because you'd stand and glance down up after being positively sure that you've dumped your load, but there would be nothing visible in the bowl. A damn ghost shit! - not obstructed by a stupidly narrow bottom of the bowl it would literally make its own way at least partly through the s-bend under the momentum of its own initial velocity.

Hope I haven't ruined anyone's dinner.

Not all heroes wear capes. There is an immeasurable bond between a man and his favorite shitter in the house.

[james_s]

This all makes me glad I have the original 1979 toilets in my house, I'll be taking good care of them because I don't want to deal with the hassle of modern ones. Sure would be nice if efficiency regulations looked at real world use rather than some manufactured test that is relatively easy to design around.

[wraper]

There was one other dunny with a 6.5L flush (very rare now) but to offset that so as to retain its water-conserving stars, it had the most stupidly small water-holding bowl down the bottom, with a s-bend having a cross-sectional area barely big enough to pass a golf ball through. I just could not believe what I was looking at on the showroom floor. Who or what is supposed to shit in that thing? A toddler or your pet cat? WTF?

Dunno if it's the same design but in one hotel I've used toilet with a tiniest hole I've ever seen. That was the best shit flushing toilet I've ever used as well. It used very little water and basically pulled all of the shit similar to vacuum toilets. Very counter intuitive. I think working principle should be similar to this:

[soldar]

Dunno if it's the same design but in one hotel I've used toilet with a tiniest hole I've ever seen. That was the best shit flushing flushing toilet I've ever used as well. It used very little water and basically pulled all of the shit similar to vacuum toilets. Very counter intuitive. I think working principle should be similar to this:

Search for  - pressure assisted toilet - .

A jet of water in the lower part ensures waste is flushed. They are very effective although more expensive.

[gildasd]

Installing blind pipes is a bit of a no no especially if it can sustain an air pocket, because of Pontiac disease and all that.

  Pontiac disease is transferred by air borne water droplets or soil containing Legionella bacteria.  You're not going to get it from a sealed water system.

  When I work on the plumbing in my house, I replace the water pipe elbows nearest each faucet with a T fitting and install a blind vertical pipe about 18" long to act as an air chamber.  I have NO water hammering and I have far more plumbing than most since I have a water well with an in ground pump, a large solar hot water collector, automatic lawn sprinklers and many other solenoid operated valves in the plumbing system.

If a biofilm is left to form (a place with stagnant water/air mix is perfect) and in the right temperature range, then Pontiac is a real threat. Copper is better than steel or plastic, but not a perfect solution. It can form in a closed system, actually that is the biggest threat in my line of work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Legionnaires%27_disease_outbreaks
Normal range of chlorine cannot destroy Legionella, only "clean" the places where it can grow.
A shower is prefect place to have suspended droplets and breathing...

Gent, where I live, there have been 3 deaths in the last month due to Legionella and the source has yet to be identified.

On ships, we do a test every week and monitor our sanitary water constantly. It is already a pretty shit disease with access to a hospital, offshore it can be a death sentence.

So be careful, use membrane anti knock systems if possible, and be very wary of water drained from heating systems.

[soldar]

I have never, ever heard of a case of legionellosis caused by vertical risers. Never. If you have some cites I would be interested.

Legionella thrives in very specific conditions and one is warm temperatures. Hot tubs, cooling towers, etc.

But just because water is in contact with air is not a cause for concern. Many homes have a water tank to store water and I have never heard of problems with legionella for that reason.  If the water is treated and stored correctly it should not be a concern.

Water in risers is not stagnant. I have never seen any warning specific to avoiding blind risers for this reason. I would be interested in reading about specific cases where this happened.

Not even open water tanks used just for water storage.

[gildasd]

I have never, ever heard of a case of legionellosis caused by vertical risers. Never. If you have some cites I would be interested.

Legionella thrives in very specific conditions and one is warm temperatures. Hot tubs, cooling towers, etc.

But just because water is in contact with air is not a cause for concern. Many homes have a water tank to store water and I have never heard of problems with legionella for that reason.  If the water is treated and stored correctly it should not be a concern.

Water in risers is not stagnant. I have never seen any warning specific to avoiding blind risers for this reason. I would be interested in reading about specific cases where this happened.

Not even open water tanks used just for water storage.

I only know that when a boat gets checked, finding a short dead end pipe such as you described in the sanitary water system would be a big issue. I’ll find the rules later today.

[james_s]

I think a boat is probably a lot different than a house in that respect. Marine environments are by nature very humid and often teaming with aquatic life. You've got stagnant water from varying sources sitting in holding tanks and most of the time the plumbing is not copper.

[gildasd]

FOund an US source for “dead leg” piping for shore systems:

https://www.safeplumbing.org/advocacy/health-safety/legionella

Ships are less at risk:
-Monitoring of water in pipes and tanks (active and total chlorine, temp)
-Circulating (loop) sanitary systems at constant temp.
-Weekly purging of unused showers and faucets.
-Periodic washing of shower heads.
-Water to water cooling ...
-UV filter of the water in the hot loop.
-only people who can pass the fitness test (I don’t do cruise ships, different regs) can be onboard.

But the consequences are much more dire due to intensive care being harder to access.

There is usually a little bit of aluminium and copper in the water from anodes in the water heater and in the hydrophone.

[Zero999]

If, like most (all?) European washers, your washer has a built-in heater, then consider only using the cold water inlet and letting the washer do all the heating.

The cost of heating the water using electricity is much higher due to the stupidly high cost of electricity in Spain and I happen to have very cheap natural gas.

But then how much hot water gets wasted? (In the form of hot water in the pipes that cools off.) It may or may not be saving you money in the end. Remember that a modern washer uses extremely little hot water in the wash phase (like around 10l for a medium size load). Unless the washer is right next to the hot water heater, there might be that much just in the pipes...

Whether that's true, depends on where the machine is installed. In the UK, most machines are installed in the kitchen, quite often next to the boiler, so it would be more efficient to use a hot water feed. The person who installs the machine should make the decision as to whether hot or cold water feed is most efficient, not the manufacturer.

[wraper]

Whether that's true, depends on where the machine is installed. In the UK, most machines are installed in the kitchen, quite often next to the boiler, so it would be more efficient to use a hot water feed. The person who installs the machine should make the decision as to whether hot or cold water feed is most efficient, not the manufacturer.

If you want a machine which accepts hot water, there are such models, with both hot and cold water inputs. According to you, all washing machines should have stupid extras 90% of people would not care about or cannot make good use of (say no natural gas water heater) and which won't make washing any better. I'll ask again, who is going to pay for that? Especially considering most of the models are ridiculously cheap nowadays. Also considering that most of the clothes are recommended to be washed at 30-40^oC, hot water input usually makes little sense.

[Zero999]

Whether that's true, depends on where the machine is installed. In the UK, most machines are installed in the kitchen, quite often next to the boiler, so it would be more efficient to use a hot water feed. The person who installs the machine should make the decision as to whether hot or cold water feed is most efficient, not the manufacturer.

If you want a machine which accepts hot water, there are such models, with both hot and cold water inputs. According to you, all washing machines should have stupid extras 90% of people would not care about or cannot make good use of (say no natural gas water heater) and which won't make washing any better. I'll ask again, who is going to pay for that? Especially considering most of the models are ridiculously cheap nowadays. Also considering that most of the clothes are recommended to be washed at 30-40^oC, hot water input usually makes little sense.

1) You're putting words into my mouth.

2) Most people have a natural gas heater in the UK.

3) Yes, that's part of the problem: things are too cheap and poorly made.

4) I also use the 30 to 40 degree cycle, but don't see the problem with using natural gas to heat the water.

[wraper]

Whether that's true, depends on where the machine is installed. In the UK, most machines are installed in the kitchen, quite often next to the boiler, so it would be more efficient to use a hot water feed. The person who installs the machine should make the decision as to whether hot or cold water feed is most efficient, not the manufacturer.

If you want a machine which accepts hot water, there are such models, with both hot and cold water inputs. According to you, all washing machines should have stupid extras 90% of people would not care about or cannot make good use of (say no natural gas water heater) and which won't make washing any better. I'll ask again, who is going to pay for that? Especially considering most of the models are ridiculously cheap nowadays. Also considering that most of the clothes are recommended to be washed at 30-40^oC, hot water input usually makes little sense.

1) You're putting words into my mouth.

2) Most people have a natural gas heater in the UK.

3) Yes, that's part of the problem: things are too cheap and poorly made.

4) I also use the 30 to 40 degree cycle, but don't see the problem with using natural gas to heat the water.

Then freaking don't complain, pay more and buy a model with additional hot water input which requires additional valve. That would also require 2 water outlets available. BTW my washing machine have "HOT" punched on the back side but no input installed.

[Zero999]

Then freaking don't complain, pay more and buy a model with additional hot water input which requires additional valve. That would also require 2 water outlets available. BTW my washing machine have "HOT" punched on the back side but no input installed.

I won't. The next time I buy a washing machine, hot feed will be on my wish list, especially if I have set up a thermal solar panel for hot water. I'll happily pay a little more for lower running costs.

[soldar]

Then freaking don't complain, pay more and buy a model with additional hot water input which requires additional valve.

Lighten up Francis. We're just talking here. No need to start anything.

When I had the old washer, which filled the tub in one go, I had hot and cold valves at the wall and mixed to the single hose. I could fill the washer at any temperature and then close the hot water and leave the cold for rinsing. But now, with the new washer which fills in spurts, I cannot do this so I bypass the washer's valve control and fill in one go. The washer does not seem to mind or know.

Maybe future washers will allow the user to programs these things.

[wraper]

But now, with the new washer which fills in spurts, I cannot do this so I bypass the washer's valve control and fill in one go. The washer does not seem to mind or know.

Maybe future washers will allow the user to programs these things.

Seems you have nothing more productive to spend your time on.

[wraper]

the average electricity price for Spanish households was 23.83 euro cents per kWh

5 euro cents more than in Latvia but we have much lower salaries. still I don't know anyone who would waste their time doing such cheap ass exercise.

The average gross monthly salary by region in Spain. The gross monthly average salary of spanish workers in 2017 was 1.889 euros

[soldar]

Seems you have nothing more productive to spend your time on.

Do you really want to discuss electricity rates in Spain? It is not as simple as you think. In any case, it takes the washer less than five minutes to fill up while I am doing something else in the kitchen so it takes up none of my time. Zero.

I don't know what crawled up your ass that you have such a bad attitude today. Lighten up man. We're discussing clothes washers. That's all.

Jeez.

[tooki]

If, like most (all?) European washers, your washer has a built-in heater, then consider only using the cold water inlet and letting the washer do all the heating.

The cost of heating the water using electricity is much higher due to the stupidly high cost of electricity in Spain and I happen to have very cheap natural gas.

But then how much hot water gets wasted? (In the form of hot water in the pipes that cools off.) It may or may not be saving you money in the end. Remember that a modern washer uses extremely little hot water in the wash phase (like around 10l for a medium size load). Unless the washer is right next to the hot water heater, there might be that much just in the pipes...

Whether that's true, depends on where the machine is installed. In the UK, most machines are installed in the kitchen, quite often next to the boiler, so it would be more efficient to use a hot water feed. The person who installs the machine should make the decision as to whether hot or cold water feed is most efficient, not the manufacturer.

I feel like I addressed distance to the boiler in my comment...

As for the decision: yes, it’s a decision the homeowner should make under advice of a plumber or installer, including purchasing a machine with a hot water inlet if needed. (The low end Siemens that came with my apartment does not, while the Miele machines recently purchased by a friend and my mom do. The friend, however, doesn’t use the hot inlet, since his hot water heater is electric, and thus it’s more efficient to just use cold, while my mom doesn’t use the hot inlet because her laundry room has no hot water feed to begin with.)

[Red Squirrel]

We recently got a new washing machine, an LG front loader. As with probably all modern washing machines, it is completely controlled by software. That means the designer can do things that were totally impractical in the old days. I’d love to know though, why oh why, when the water is filling, does it have to turn the water supply on and off FOURTEEN TIMES??? Some of those are only 1/2 sec duration. The pipes in our house are a bit noisy, but it was tolerable with the old machine. With this one though I had to fit a water hammer damper thing. The point is though, what are some appliance designers smoking?

Funny I have the exact same complaint about my machine which is a simpler mechanical one. I usually use Tide coldwater so keep the cold water on but if I do want to use hot water it will sound like a jack hammer near the end of the fill cycle because it won't stop altering between hot and cold.  I guess it's trying to regulate to an exact temperature, but it's not like that is SUPER important, it should just try to stay within a range.   They should also just use rotary valves instead of solonoids.  Could be controlled by a servo.  Actually that's always been my complain in general, devices that have mechanical valves are so hard on the plumbing because of how violent they turn the water on and off.  Would be nice if they had a softer way of doing it.    I have water hammer arrestors but it's still not enough.  When I do set the laundry to use hot water I can actually see all the pipes in the kitchen shaking every time it switches.  I secured all the pipes in the basement so it just transfers the energy somewhere else, where they are more loose, like the hoses going to the faucets.

[Circlotron]

If only washing machine manufacturers spent 2 cents more and used slow closing solenoid valves.
https://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKER/menuitem.3444cc72d5a899e995cc8cd0427ad1ca/?vgnextoid=4405e5054faa7410VgnVCM100000200c1dacRCRD&vgnextcat=2-Way+On%2FOff+Solenoid+Valves+%E2%80%93+Anti-Water+Hammer%2FSlow+Closing&markethierarchy=c0086b0bf10a4510VgnVCM100000e6651dacRCRD&segment=c0086b0bf10a4510VgnVCM100000e6651dacRCRD&vgnextfmt=FR&requestci=c0086b0bf10a4510VgnVCM100000e6651dacRCRD

[wraper]

If only washing machine manufacturers spent 2 cents more and used slow closing solenoid valves.
https://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKER/menuitem.3444cc72d5a899e995cc8cd0427ad1ca/?vgnextoid=4405e5054faa7410VgnVCM100000200c1dacRCRD&vgnextcat=2-Way+On%2FOff+Solenoid+Valves+%E2%80%93+Anti-Water+Hammer%2FSlow+Closing&markethierarchy=c0086b0bf10a4510VgnVCM100000e6651dacRCRD&segment=c0086b0bf10a4510VgnVCM100000e6651dacRCRD&vgnextfmt=FR&requestci=c0086b0bf10a4510VgnVCM100000e6651dacRCRD

2 cents? Do you have a a little clue how much such valves cost? Like non expensive washing machine. And valve on the photo $400+.

[soldar]

If only washing machine manufacturers spent 2 cents more and used slow closing solenoid valves.

Those valves are very expensive.

Solenoid valves used in home appliances are simple, cheap and reliable, require almost no energy to open and will close if there is a power failure. It is the pressure of the liquid which keeps the valve closed. It is very ingenious.

The water hammer problem can be solved with arrestors and you could add a pressure relief valve which would let a small amount of water through (like a zener).

[Circlotron]

If only washing machine manufacturers spent 2 cents more and used slow closing solenoid valves.
https://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKER/menuitem.3444cc72d5a899e995cc8cd0427ad1ca/?vgnextoid=4405e5054faa7410VgnVCM100000200c1dacRCRD&vgnextcat=2-Way+On%2FOff+Solenoid+Valves+%E2%80%93+Anti-Water+Hammer%2FSlow+Closing&markethierarchy=c0086b0bf10a4510VgnVCM100000e6651dacRCRD&segment=c0086b0bf10a4510VgnVCM100000e6651dacRCRD&vgnextfmt=FR&requestci=c0086b0bf10a4510VgnVCM100000e6651dacRCRD

2 cents? Do you have a a little clue how much such valves cost? Like non expensive washing machine. And valve on the photo $400+.

The idea was to show that such valves exist, not to suggest that that particular one was a suitable choice. I’m sure it wouldn’t be too difficult for a valve manufacturer to come up with a part that has some kind of damping dashpot to slow the closing, at a cost not that much greater than what is currently used in most machines. Wouldn’t have to be the last word in perfection, just something that takes the edge off the sudden closure.

[soldar]

The idea was to show that such valves exist, not to suggest that that particular one was a suitable choice. I’m sure it wouldn’t be too difficult for a valve manufacturer to come up with a part that has some kind of damping dashpot to slow the closing, at a cost not that much greater than what is currently used in most machines. Wouldn’t have to be the last word in perfection, just something that takes the edge off the sudden closure.

You are sure it wouldn’t be too difficult? If you can provide a better mousetrap valve which is as reliable and cheap to manufacture you can make a lot of money!  Valve manufacturers want to hear from you!

[Red Squirrel]

If only washing machine manufacturers spent 2 cents more and used slow closing solenoid valves.

Those valves are very expensive.

Solenoid valves used in home appliances are simple, cheap and reliable, require almost no energy to open and will close if there is a power failure. It is the pressure of the liquid which keeps the valve closed. It is very ingenious.

The water hammer problem can be solved with arrestors and you could add a pressure relief valve which would let a small amount of water through (like a zener).

I find even with water hammer arrestors it's just not enough.  I installed the biggest ones I could find and I still get lot of water hammer from the washing machine opening and closing those valves 40 times.   IMO what they should do is have servo controlled gate valves, and then solonoid valves too.  Solonoid valves open when the gate valve is closed, then they slowly dial in to the right temperature, instead of going on/off like a maniac.  It would be less hard on the plumbing and on itself. 

[soldar]

I find even with water hammer arrestors it's just not enough.  I installed the biggest ones I could find and I still get lot of water hammer from the washing machine opening and closing those valves 40 times.   IMO what they should do is have servo controlled gate valves, and then solonoid valves too.  Solonoid valves open when the gate valve is closed, then they slowly dial in to the right temperature, instead of going on/off like a maniac.  It would be less hard on the plumbing and on itself.

Combining valves makes no sense.

As for arrestors being not enough I guess it all depends on your pipes, how long they are etc.  With sufficient space you can make your own arrestors as big as you like for little or nothing. You could also put a safety valve which would let some water through when the pressure exceeds the setpoint. These things are not difficult or expensive to do.

Another thing that would help is closing the valve to the washer half way so that the water flows slower into the washer. That will diminish the speed of the water through the pipes and the water hammer effect.

[Dundarave]

I find even with water hammer arrestors it's just not enough.

I’ve found that excessive water pressure contributes to the problem, and in-home pressure regulators (usually by the water shut-off valve) are notorious for allowing excess pressure due to grit or other contaminant on the valve seat.

Try connecting a pressure gauge to a hose bib with all the house taps turned off: IIRC, it should be around 60 psi. Higher pressure will absolutely make water hammer issues worse.

Leaky toilet tank valves are another symptom of higher-than-normal pressure, and actually serve to moderate it to some extent, but not enough to stop water hammer.

[floobydust]

A proportional valve and actuator is very expensive.
These cheapola solenoid/pintle valves, they could use a high/low flow instead. Or just build-in the water hammer arrestor, or use PWM or DC.
Sediment is another problem in valves, you get sand or rust particles sticking them open.

Intermittent sensors, clogs from detergent, corrosion etc. all make these machines malfunction. They seriously need an event log.

An open-source washing machine would be interesting to price. Something you can troubleshoot and repair, without intentional obsolescence or software stupidity.

[soldar]

I’ve found that excessive water pressure contributes to the problem, and in-home pressure regulators (usually by the water shut-off valve) are notorious for allowing excess pressure due to grit or other contaminant on the valve seat.

High water pressure makes for high water speed. All you need to do to slow the water down is close down partially the shutoff valve so that the water flows slower into the washer.

In any case it is good to avoid excessively high water pressure because it increases the likelihood of problems so, yes, if your water pressure is too high a pressure regulator is a good idea. I would say somewhere between 30 and 60 PSI. The lowest which works for you. On demand water heaters need higher pressure to work well than tank heaters.

[Red Squirrel]

I find even with water hammer arrestors it's just not enough.  I installed the biggest ones I could find and I still get lot of water hammer from the washing machine opening and closing those valves 40 times.   IMO what they should do is have servo controlled gate valves, and then solonoid valves too.  Solonoid valves open when the gate valve is closed, then they slowly dial in to the right temperature, instead of going on/off like a maniac.  It would be less hard on the plumbing and on itself.

Combining valves makes no sense.

It would be for safety, since the servo controlled valves like I suggest would stay open if there is a fault such as a power outage.  The solenoid ones would shut off. They would just stay on for the entire cycle.

And yeah my pressure is fairly high last I checked, it's surprisingly under 100 though. Think it was like 80ish when I checked a while back I forget.  Some places in town get way above 100 psi.  My sister had to get a pressure regulator installed at her house since all her toilets etc were always having issues.   

[james_s]

Maybe a pressure regulator right at the washing machine would be a good alternative. I've never had any issues at all with water hammer in my house, and there are ways of dealing with it at the point of use that don't require adding complexity to everyone's machines to accommodate the few who need it.

[soldar]

At the washing machine all you need is to restrict the flow with the shutoff valve. No need for a pressure regulator.

You can also install a commercial water flow restrictor or just install a blind washer with a small hole drilled in it.

100 PSI is way too high for my taste and I would bring it down. The least leak or accident can turn into a major thing. I would prefer half that or even less.

I have a pump in the basement in this house and I have it set to about 3 Kg (45 PSI) in the basement which means somewhat less two floors up and everything works fine.

[Circlotron]

The truly dedicated among us that use a top loading machine would install a toilet cistern on the wall above the machine. Slow shutoff on the cistern means no water hammer, and could refill the machine straight from the cistern outlet pipe in about five seconds flat!

[james_s]

100 psi would be great for some things, but that would really make me nervous with white goods. A lot of the new ones have valves made of plastic which I think is a really stupid idea. Even without that you've got rubber hoses connecting them to the wall and those can burst and make a real mess.

[soldar]

100 psi would be great for some things, but that would really make me nervous with white goods. A lot of the new ones have valves made of plastic which I think is a really stupid idea. Even without that you've got rubber hoses connecting them to the wall and those can burst and make a real mess.

All the washer valves I have ever seen were made of plastic and worked fine. I suppose you could make a really low quality valve but a good one can be made of plastic and last longer than the washer. . Same thing with rubber hoses inside and outside the washer. If they are good quality they should last forever.

Still, 100 PSI is unnecessarily high and is (1) more likely to cause a failure somewhere and (2) dump a lot more water when a failure happens. 

Regarding the problem with water hammer I would start by reducing the water flow by partially closing the valve at the wall or inserting a flow restrictor. That should ameliorate the problem very substantially.

[james_s]

The plastic valve in my friend's dishwasher broke and flooded the kitchen, thankfully he was home and heard water running down the stairs and was able to shut it off before it became a major mess. When I was a kid we lived in an apartment that had plastic plumbing and one night the plastic shutoff valve under the bathroom sink blew apart and would have caused a major flood had I not been awake still and found the shutoff valve for the whole unit. I've also had plastic heater control valves in cars break, in my own car I had to call for a ride and my brother's car the engine overheated and warped the cylinder head before he noticed. I've had car radiators with plastic end tanks fail catastrophically too. I just don't trust plastic with pressurized water, it's not even that the lifespan is insufficient but that the failure mode is catastrophic bursting without warning.

[floobydust]

Washing machine fill solenoids are one assembly now. Water hammer would not be nice to the plastic seams.
Water leaks are not considered dangerous though.

Imagine your stove turning on when you are not home - they are under embedded MCU control. Hopefully you have nothing on the stove top...
Appliance (electronics) does burn up due to bad soldering, relays and also arcs on the PCB due to mains transients. Stoves, dishwasher, fridge etc.  Always check the consumer recalls.

[cvanc]

To all those that have mentioned it, I do have these fitted. Water hammer is now not a problem, just the repeated on and off of the incoming water during first fill is annoying.

Don't those have to be vertical in order to stay filled with air?  If they're not filed with air they won't reduce hammer.

[Red Squirrel]

To all those that have mentioned it, I do have these fitted. Water hammer is now not a problem, just the repeated on and off of the incoming water during first fill is annoying.

Don't those have to be vertical in order to stay filled with air?  If they're not filed with air they won't reduce hammer.

Hmmm interesting I never thought orientation really mattered but guess that makes sense.  I should try to change mine to the other way and see if it helps. Though I think there is a gasket and seal so not sure it really would matter?  But do wonder if those fail after a while.

[soldar]

Washing machine fill solenoids are one assembly now. 

They were one (plastic) assembly, like the one in your photo, in the first clothes washer I bought in 1972. The valves are still working fine after all these years. If designed correctly, and I believe they are, pressure within specified limit should never be a problem.  I believe problems with these valves more often come from dirt or deposits in the water.  If either of the pilot holes gets blocked you're SOL.

Given enough time, very probably, sooner or later, a solenoid valve is going to fail in this way. The question is whether it happens before the appliance is replaced. I guess in most cases the washer is replaced before the valve fails. I know of one case where a clothes washer valve failed and flooded an apartment. Maybe an alarm could be provided but, again, it costs money. Maybe it would be easier and cheaper to implement in today's washers which already have an "intelligent" control board.

Regarding water hammer arrestors, if they have a bladder the orientation does not really matter (that's what the bladder is for) but it is good practice to mount them vertically upwards because they will work with air even if the bladder fails.

[wraper]

When using with tap water, plastic valves should be more reliable. Tap water has a lot of impurities and deposits and corrosion in metal valves are guaranteed to happen, just like in metal pipes.

[soldar]

This video is not about solenoid valves but it still gives a very good idea of how ball valves are made.

[Circlotron]

To all those that have mentioned it, I do have these fitted. Water hammer is now not a problem, just the repeated on and off of the incoming water during first fill is annoying.

Don't those have to be vertical in order to stay filled with air?  If they're not filed with air they won't reduce hammer.

Hmmm interesting I never thought orientation really mattered but guess that makes sense.  I should try to change mine to the other way and see if it helps. Though I think there is a gasket and seal so not sure it really would matter?  But do wonder if those fail after a while.

[cvanc]

Oh wow, I had no idea those things had a piston in them.  I thought they were just a hollow air pocket.  I wonder if every brand is made that way?

In any case, if there's a piston inside, mounting angle should be irrelevant.

[soldar]

Oh wow, I had no idea those things had a piston in them.  I thought they were just a hollow air pocket.  I wonder if every brand is made that way?

In any case, if there's a piston inside, mounting angle should be irrelevant.

Smaller ones have pistons, larger ones have bladders. If they were only an air pocket they would just be a length of pipe and, yes, you can use just a vertical length of pipe but the air will end up dissolving in the water and disappearing. That is the purpose of the piston or bladder: to prevent the air from dissolving away.

Still it is better to mount them vertically because if it is mounted facing downwards water could leak around the rings and end up filling the chamber.

[richard.cs]

[ Image with piston ]

Oooh, interesting, I too had just assumed they were an overpriced pipe stub with no piston or bladder.

The next time I buy a washing machine, hot feed will be on my wish list, especially if I have set up a thermal solar panel for hot water.

When I looked at this before it seemed that most of the machines with a hot inlet only used it on 90 C and sometimes 60 C washes. i.e. they don't use a mix of hot and cold to get to lower temperatures, 30 C and 40 C washes always start from cold. This is irritating, the best solution seems to be to put a thermostatic mixing valve near the machine so you can feed 30 C or 40 C (whatever your preferred lowest wash temperature is) into the cold inlet and the machine just doesn't use its heating element except for hotter washes. Unfortunately it's not documented very well in the machine manuals.

You may still have the problem of low water volumes and long pipes*, if your hot water is not stored sufficiently close but is truly free (solar) then a circulating insulated hot loop might make sense, or even some kind of pre-purge. Whether you care about the hot water cooling in the pipes or not every litre of cold admitted to the machine from the pipes is a litre that needs to be electrically heated.

*My pretty typical UK house has about 4 m of 22 mm and 3 m of 15 mm between the hot water tank and the washing machine, about 1.8 L. Re-plumbing in narrow pipe may help.

[james_s]

Oh wow, I had no idea those things had a piston in them.  I thought they were just a hollow air pocket.  I wonder if every brand is made that way?

In any case, if there's a piston inside, mounting angle should be irrelevant.

I think it's almost guaranteed that if they are not mounted more or less vertically with the air pocket up, water will eventually leak past the seals and the air will escape. It looks like just a pair of O-rings on a plastic piston, I'd be surprised if they stayed functional for more than a year with the air pocket facing down.

[soldar]

Those with a piston are small, cheap and convenient but are not as effective because when they are installed the air inside is at atmospheric pressure and as soon as water pressure is applied the air compresses inside and the effective volume is reduced to a fraction of the original. Given the size you can imagine they are not too effective.

The larger ones have air bladders which can be precharged with air under pressure so the entire volume remains effective. The ones I have seen have a valve like a bicycle valve and can be pumped up and recharged. If course, they cannot be hidden inside walls but have to remain accessible.

[floobydust]

Washing machine fill solenoids are one assembly now. 

They were one (plastic) assembly, like the one in your photo, in the first clothes washer I bought in 1972. The valves are still working fine after all these years.

Um, you're still running a 1972 washing machine?

[soldar]

Um, you're still running a 1972 washing machine?

I believe I already mentioned it upthread. Yep. With a few hose repairs it has been working fine all these decades but finally I could not get a replacement for the front door rubber bellows which had cracked and leaked. I did buy a new computerized washer but the old one is down in the garage/basement and still works. I rotated the bellows half turn so now the crack is at the top and it hardly leaks. If I could get a replacement bellows it would be my primary washer as I have much more control with the electromechanical timer.

The one thing the new washer does much better is spin dry. It spins much faster and the clothes come out almost dry. The old washer jumps a foot up in the air when it starts spinning and then tries to jump all over the place.

Here is a pre-loaded water-hammer arrestor.
https://www.cimmspa.com/en-us/Products/Expansion-vessels-for-sanitary-water/category/with-anti-water-hammer-membrane/car

Another: https://www.nordinoxsrl.it/2512/2/1/urlbase.html

[james_s]

Um, you're still running a 1972 washing machine?

It's not *that* uncommon. My mom was using a late 70s washer and dryer until about 8 years ago. My grandmother had a mid-60s washer and dryer up until she replaced them in the early 2000's. I was actually disappointed that she did that, I could have fixed the washer easily and kept it going but she was always hesitant to ask me to take care of stuff. I had a hand me down early 80s set that I was using until I got my current front loader about 10 years ago. This stuff can be kept going almost indefinitely, at least the older machines could. The classic North American washers and dryers were made by only 2 or 3 companies and underneath the cosmetic changes most washers were one of two basic design. You can still get parts for 30-40 year old machines.

[soldar]

I am still using a Moulinex FM430 microwave oven which I guess is from about 1980. No rotating tray, no electronics. I inherited it from my mother about fifteen years ago and I already had a better one but I gave mine away to a friend and kept the older one. Still works although I think the newer ones heat faster because they are more efficient. No rotating tray means moving the load by hand every few minutes. They used to sell plastic rotating trays you could wind up but I cannot find them any more.

Where the cord enters the housing is very badly designed and it is impossible to replace the cord without major dismantling. The cord is damaged and I am expecting firworks any day but it has lasted like that for years now.

[floobydust]

When you look at the total cost of ownership, the 1972 washer is killing you on water and energy to heat the water, 30-45 gallons or twice that of a newer front loader.
But... the low repair costs and long lifetime also have a huge payback.

I'd have to check but it's like a car - most of your operating costs are for gasoline. Most of a washer's operating costs are the water/sewer/natural gas/electricity- all assuming it makes it to several years life without major repairs.

If it only lasts 5 years, or needs expensive repairs, you have been burned. Getting 10-20 years service life, the machine's cost is nothing and it ends up being the water's costs that dominate.

[soldar]

When you look at the total cost of ownership, the 1972 washer is killing you on water and energy to heat the water, 30-45 gallons or twice that of a newer front loader.

Nah. First of all the washer gets very little use. I do not do that many loads. Then, I am in a somewhat special case because I have free cold water and very low cost hot water. That is why I don't want to use the washer to heat the water.  And, in any case, I only heat the washing, not the rinsing.

Even if I paid for the water and the heating it would not amount to much.  I estimate 0.5 KWH for a load which is about 10 cents. Doing a load a week that would be like 5 EUR/year. So, even if I had to pay to heat the water and even pay for the water the cost is insignificant.

If you are buying a new washer or other appliance these are things to take into account but replacing an old washer or other appliance with the sole purpose of saving does not generally make sense.

Still, as I have said, I am already using a new washer because I could not find parts to repair the old one. But I still like using the old one for certain things because I have much greater control.

Another old thing I am using is a color TV I built from a kit in the late 1970s. At that time TVs in Spain were very heavily taxed as luxury goods but you could buy the parts without that tax and build it yourself. After 40 years the TV still works fine (with a digital tuner). The screen AR is 4:3 so most of the time the picture is letterboxed. The programming here is such garbage and interests me so little that I would not consider spending anything on a new TV.

[james_s]

The energy savings also comes in waves, it was not until maybe the last 10-15 years that high efficiency washers became common, prior to that they hadn't really changed much at all. Look inside a 1995 top load washer and you'd be hard pressed to tell it from a 1965 model. Anyway the vast majority of the energy cost is from the dyer and even a brand new dryer is virtually identical to one from 30-40+ years ago, they are either an electric element or a crude gas burner and a fan with a rotating drum. The best way to save energy on the dryer is for the washer to have a good spin cycle which most do if they're in good shape.

As far as water usage, I suppose saving water is rarely a bad idea, but the way the billing is done on mine there is virtually zero incentive. My water and sewer bill is typically around $220 every 2 months and of that maybe $20 is water consumption, the rest are fixed fees just for being connected. If I stopped using any water at all for washing clothes it might save me $2 a month, which on a $110 bill is just noise.

[wraper]

Anyway the vast majority of the energy cost is from the dyer and even a brand new dryer is virtually identical to one from 30-40+ years ago, they are either an electric element or a crude gas burner and a fan with a rotating drum. The best way to save energy on the dryer is for the washer to have a good spin cycle which most do if they're in good shape.

Besides simple condenser tumble dryers there are also dryers which use heat pump.

[james_s]

I've heard of those but never seen one in this part of the world. Go into any store that sells these things and you'll see a bunch of 4-6kW electric dryers and a few that burn natural gas.

[wraper]

I've heard of those but never seen one in this part of the world. Go into any store that sells these things and you'll see a bunch of 4-6kW electric dryers and a few that burn natural gas.

Should be American thing. Big cars, little care about efficiency.

[Dundarave]

I've heard of those but never seen one in this part of the world. Go into any store that sells these things and you'll see a bunch of 4-6kW electric dryers and a few that burn natural gas.

I think you'll find that things have changed:  I recently had to buy a new electric dryer, and almost bought a "ventless" one, i.e. a heat-pump version, by mistake as there were so many of the new type available, and I was unfamiliar with their existence. (in Vancouver, Canada).  I still like my dryers vented, and didn't want to have to deal with yet another water disposal/potential water leakage issue.

A quick look at the U.S. Home Depot site seems to have roughly 50 - 50 vented vs ventless dryers available for purchase.  They actually call them "vented" to differentiate them from the ventless ones they carry.

[Circlotron]

What is the air path for a heat pump type dryer?

1/ cool and dehumidify air (increase evaporative efficacy)
2/ reheat air
3/ dry clothes and exit

or

1/ heat air
2/ dry clothes
3/ cool and dehumidify air (recapture heat and trap moisture)

[Siwastaja]

What is the air path for a heat pump type dryer?

1/ cool and dehumidify air (increase evaporative efficacy)
2/ reheat air
3/ dry clothes and exit

or

1/ heat air
2/ dry clothes
3/ cool and dehumidify air (recapture heat and trap moisture)

AFAIK it's usually a closed loop, so your two scenarios are equal.

1) Condenser heats up the air (resistive heaters can be used in addition, especially at the beginning of the cycle to bootstrap the heat required; after a while, the inefficiency of the heat pump provides the required heat)

2) Hot, dry air soaks up moisture from the clothes

3) Hot, wet air enters the evaporator coil, cools down, water condenses,

4) Cool, dry air enters the condenser coil, back to #1.

[langwadt]

I'd have to check but it's like a car - most of your operating costs are for gasoline.

I think more like maybe a third, major portion the first few years is depreciation, and if needed cost of financing

[tooki]

I've heard of those but never seen one in this part of the world. Go into any store that sells these things and you'll see a bunch of 4-6kW electric dryers and a few that burn natural gas.

I think you'll find that things have changed:  I recently had to buy a new electric dryer, and almost bought a "ventless" one, i.e. a heat-pump version, by mistake as there were so many of the new type available, and I was unfamiliar with their existence. (in Vancouver, Canada).  I still like my dryers vented, and didn't want to have to deal with yet another water disposal/potential water leakage issue.

A quick look at the U.S. Home Depot site seems to have roughly 50 - 50 vented vs ventless dryers available for purchase.  They actually call them "vented" to differentiate them from the ventless ones they carry.

First of all, Home Depot USA currently lists 229 vented dryers and 22 ventless ones; that’s hardly 50/50! (Are you sure you didn’t misread as ~220 of each?)

But more importantly, ventless (condensation) != heat pump.

Condensation dryers have existed for years, simply to make installation more flexible. (They can go anywhere with an outlet, with no need for a vent or even a drain, since they can use a condensate container.) They’re not really significantly different from vented dryers in terms of efficiency. Heat pump dryers, on the other hand, are a huge leap in efficiency.

A friend of mine in USA recently purchased a new washer and dryer, and (aside from its stellar reputation), he chose Miele because they’re one of only 3 vendors we could find that sell heat pump dryers in USA: Miele, Whirlpool, and Asko. Between them I’d be surprised if we could scrounge up 10 different models.

Here in Europe, the newer energy efficiency standards really only allow heat pump dryers. I’ve had one for 5 years and love it. It’s far gentler on the fabrics because it doesn’t use temperatures as high as conventional dryers do. (I’d guesstimate that on regular, it is at best as hot as a traditional dryer on delicate.)

[tooki]

What is the air path for a heat pump type dryer?

1/ cool and dehumidify air (increase evaporative efficacy)
2/ reheat air
3/ dry clothes and exit

or

1/ heat air
2/ dry clothes
3/ cool and dehumidify air (recapture heat and trap moisture)

AFAIK it's usually a closed loop, so your two scenarios are equal.

1) Condenser heats up the air (resistive heaters can be used in addition, especially at the beginning of the cycle to bootstrap the heat required; after a while, the inefficiency of the heat pump provides the required heat)

2) Hot, dry air soaks up moisture from the clothes

3) Hot, wet air enters the evaporator coil, cools down, water condenses,

4) Cool, dry air enters the condenser coil, back to #1.

I’m not even really sure they use much resistive heating at all. In some programs, my heat pump dryer heats very, very slowly, and small loads usually dry before ever getting hot, often barely even getting warm. Only the cottons program actually manages to get the clothes hot. This leads me to conclude that dehumidification of the process air is the dominant evaporation aid, not heat.

EDIT: Edited to qualify how different programs do it.

[bloguetronica]

My LG machine does the same. And as it opens and closes the valve repeatedly and quite violently, the plumbing complains. The pipes vibrate withing the walls, and I'm talking about brick and cement walls. They should have put an hydropneumatic dampener just before the valve to mitigate the water hammer effect.

Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço

[coppercone2]

if you are rotating a cracked gasket to keep something working, with a 'little' leaking being 'acceptable', you are being too cheap. Slip hazard alone is not worth it with a gasket that is already past due.

That's just too much man. Miserer level 10. Enjoy the melody new washing machines play when they are done rather then BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT... thunk... wake up in ambulance with head bandages 

I am really cheap but I still buy things like 3M brand grip tape on stairs (while keeping restorations cheap and maintaining old equipment).

[coppercone2]

My LG machine does the same. And as it opens and closes the valve repeatedly and quite violently, the plumbing complains. The pipes vibrate withing the walls, and I'm talking about brick and cement walls. They should have put an hydropneumatic dampener just before the valve to mitigate the water hammer effect.

Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço

Since there is a hose sticking out the back, you can do it yourself.

[eugenenine]

Imagine your stove turning on when you are not home - they are under embedded MCU control. Hopefully you have nothing on the stove top...
Appliance (electronics) does burn up due to bad soldering, relays and also arcs on the PCB due to mains transients. Stoves, dishwasher, fridge etc.  Always check the consumer recalls.

Our oven didn't turn its self on but it failed to turn off after use.  We had made a pizza and I kept hearing the relay click off and on even though the over was turned off.

[eugenenine]

Old plumbing books like the one my father has would show a short piece of capped opp pipe beside every tap, be it for sinks or washers, to dampen the water stopping from closing the valves.  I found it odd my 1995 house didn't have any.  It seems maybe the engineers of the washers counted on the damper already being there.

[NiHaoMike]

Condensation dryers have existed for years, simply to make installation more flexible. (They can go anywhere with an outlet, with no need for a vent or even a drain, since they can use a condensate container.) They’re not really significantly different from vented dryers in terms of efficiency. Heat pump dryers, on the other hand, are a huge leap in efficiency.

They are a lot more efficient than vented dryers in climates that need heating but not humidification. Heat pump does even better in all climates, of course.

Not sure if there are any on the market but a vented dryer can use a simple heat exchanger to dramatically increase efficiency.

[eugenenine]

if you are rotating a cracked gasket to keep something working, with a 'little' leaking being 'acceptable', you are being too cheap. Slip hazard alone is not worth it with a gasket that is already past due.

he's not being cheap, he said the gasket is no longer available for purchase

[soldar]

he's not being cheap, he said the gasket is no longer available for purchase

Thanks. Not only that but I said the washer has been replaced and I just didn't throw the old one out but I put it in the basement/garage where I can still use it when I prefer.

Regarding clothes drying, all you need to do is move to a place with dry air and high altitude above sea level like Madrid or, even better, Mexico city. I can spin the clothes, hang them up to dry and in an hour almost everything is dry except thick cotton like jeans which will take a bit longer. The dry air and low atmospheric pressure help speed up the drying.

[rsjsouza]

Regarding clothes drying, all you need to do is move to a place with dry air and high altitude above sea level like Madrid or, even better, Mexico city. I can spin the clothes, hang them up to dry and in an hour almost everything is dry except thick cotton like jeans which will take a bit longer. The dry air and low atmospheric pressure help speed up the drying.

Interesting you mention that... I have never used a clothes drier before moving to the US - in my home town the climate was so dry that, in the dry season, you could have towels dry in the shade in about 2-1/2 hours. If left in the sun the time was even lower.

[Red Squirrel]

Condensation dryers have existed for years, simply to make installation more flexible. (They can go anywhere with an outlet, with no need for a vent or even a drain, since they can use a condensate container.) They’re not really significantly different from vented dryers in terms of efficiency. Heat pump dryers, on the other hand, are a huge leap in efficiency.

They are a lot more efficient than vented dryers in climates that need heating but not humidification. Heat pump does even better in all climates, of course.

Not sure if there are any on the market but a vented dryer can use a simple heat exchanger to dramatically increase efficiency.

It's actually crossed my mind to setup some kind of HRV for the dryer.  The trick is trying to filter out the lint 100% otherwise the fins would get clogged.   I always feel it's wasteful pumping 3000w+ of heat outside when I could try to capture it and keep it inside.  Would not want to just pump it directly inside either as dryer exhaust does not exactly smell great.   

[tooki]

When I was a kid, our dryer was set up to vent into the house, using a pillowcase as a lint trap. The dryer was only used in winter, as in the summer they were hung out to dry on a clothesline. (No idea what you mean about the smell being bad; if your clothes are going into the dryer washed, then the smell is of your fabric softener.)

[eugenenine]

Its not the smell but the humidity, if you vent a dryer into your garage your going to have rusty tools.

Years ago I designed a "efficient" home.  It was circular and a big closet in the center held the water heater, furnace, etc and other appliances like the refrigerator had their backs to the center.  The heat from the refrigerator, stove/over and dryer were all channeled through the water heater and furnace to use that heat to heat the water and house.  Don;t know if it actually would have worked through as i'm not really a home designer but always wished i could try.

[Red Squirrel]

Dryer exhaust always seems to have a smell to it, not like dirty clothes smell, but just an odd dampness and burn smell.  I think it's just the humidity, or maybe the smell of the element or something.  Kinda like the dead skin cell smell when you first turn on the furnace after summer.   

[Zbig]

I'll see your washing machines and raise you this: a wall of urinals in my company's (and pretty much any other) office men's bathroom. Each urinal is nicely shielded with a "privacy partitions" on both sides for those more on the pee-shy side but then the guys' junk gets nicely reflected off of a perfecly polished chromed surface of the proximity sensor cover. And I was NOT trying to find that out!

[newbrain]

I'll see your washing machines and raise you this

Ok, if we are going to play this game I'll see your urinals (no, not literally, thanks) and raise you the dishwasher my grandfather bought in the 60es.

My grandfather was quite a smart guy (he's been the youngest in Italy to get a university engineering degree) and had very good practical skills.

I was never able to understand how he could buy a dishwasher where the water jets were stationary, and dishes were inserted in a rotating wire rack (carousel slide projector style).

Even forgetting the bad use of space, not to speak of the continuous maintenance due to leaks between the motor (placed under the racks) and washing compartment, every time it was used we could place bets on some dish or glassware breaking (the odds were about 1 out of 3)...

As much as I would like to add a picture, this abomination left no googlable traces 

[tooki]

I'll see your washing machines and raise you this

Ok, if we are going to play this game I'll see your urinals (no, not literally, thanks) and raise you the dishwasher my grandfather bought in the 60es.

My grandfather was quite a smart guy (he's been the youngest in Italy to get a university engineering degree) and had very good practical skills.

I was never able to understand how he could buy a dishwasher where the water jets were stationary, and dishes were inserted in a rotating wire rack (carousel slide projector style).

Even forgetting the bad use of space, not to speak of the continuous maintenance due to leaks between the motor (placed under the racks) and washing compartment, every time it was used we could place bets on some dish or glassware breaking (the odds were about 1 out of 3)...

As much as I would like to add a picture, this abomination left no googlable traces 

Rotary dishwashers are still made for commercial use, it seems. That term is googleable.

But I do recall having seen a picture of an old rotary dishwasher not too long ago, though I don’t know what context it was that I discovered it in!

[newbrain]

But I do recall having seen a picture of an old rotary dishwasher not too long ago, though I don’t know what context it was that I discovered it in!

Found them now, and yes, mostly professional ones.
Also here


From my experience, at least for home models, it was a horrible idea.
Maybe with safety belts and airbags...

[Circlotron]

Found them now, and yes, mostly professional ones.

Might make more sense in a commercial situation where you could load it up with many identical dishes of the one type that can stack together in a uniform manner.

[Mr. Scram]

If they're more popular in commercial environments I suspect expediency or effectiveness is somehow prioritised over resource or space efficiency.