Product designers that have no idea of reality

[soldar]

This is a good reminder that just because you don't know why something works the way it does doesn't mean the engineers were high, mmkay?

I agree with this but it also doesn't mean the engineers always get it right.

And sometimes things which may be justified from a technical point of view can be annoying to the consumer.

And I realize many things change to satisfy the public at large even though they may be annoying to me in particular. The manufacturers are looking for the large market share, not outliers.

But then how much hot water gets wasted? (In the form of hot water in the pipes that cools off.) It may or may not be saving you money in the end. Remember that a modern washer uses extremely little hot water in the wash phase (like around 10l for a medium size load). Unless the washer is right next to the hot water heater, there might be that much just in the pipes...

Not a consideration in my case although I acknowledge that it might be relevant in most cases.

The enzymes in modern detergents don't need high temperatures, and in fact some of the enzymes are deactivated by heat. The detergents are, in fact, designed to do different things at different temperatures, so it's actually desirable for the wash to heat slowly.

This is all very well but we have turned doing a load of washing into a high-tech process where I have lost control whereas thirty years ago it was simpler and I had total control.

Now I give my clothes to the washer and I lose control of what happens. I cannot add clothes, I cannot speed up the process, I cannot do anything but submit to the higher authority of the washer and humbly collect my clothes when the washer is ready to return them.

I used to be able to have much more control over my washer and I liked it that way. Again, this is just me; I realize the big market consumers may prefer the way things are going now.

When I have a very small load of maybe just some underwear I will just do it manually in one of those big plastic paint buckets rather than use the washer. In fact, I have been thinking of inventing some way to hang the bucket and have a small motor shake it a bit. Maybe I should open a thread to discuss this

[wraper]

Now I give my clothes to the washer and I lose control of what happens. I cannot add clothes, I cannot speed up the process, I cannot do anything but submit to the higher authority of the washer and humbly collect my clothes when the washer is ready to return them.

I used to be able to have much more control over my washer and I liked it that way. Again, this is just me; I realize the big market consumers may prefer the way things are going now.

When I have a very small load of maybe just some underwear I will just do it manually in one of those big plastic paint buckets rather than use the washer. In fact, I have been thinking of inventing some way to hang the bucket and have a small motor shake it a bit. Maybe I should open a thread to discuss this

You should buy one as on the video. The fact is that when manually doing your very small load you'll most likely spend more water than modern washing machine.

https://youtu.be/ouri6W7dgvM

[onesixright]

I’d love to know though, why oh why, when the water is filling, does it have to turn the water supply on and off FOURTEEN TIMES???

What’s the time frame in which this occurs?


Sent from my X using Tapatalk

[Circlotron]

I’d love to know though, why oh why, when the water is filling, does it have to turn the water supply on and off FOURTEEN TIMES???

What’s the time frame in which this occurs?

Felt like about 3 minutes from start to finish. I'll try to remember to time it next time.

[onesixright]

I’d love to know though, why oh why, when the water is filling, does it have to turn the water supply on and off FOURTEEN TIMES???

What’s the time frame in which this occurs?

Felt like about 3 minutes from start to finish. I'll try to remember to time it next time.

Yeah, I feel it would be important. If its during the complete cycle is not that bad. But if only a few minutes 

[soldar]

You should buy one as on the video. The fact is that when manually doing your very small load you'll most likely spend more water than modern washing machine.

Yes, I have considered a mini clothes washer and I might get one some day. It seems interesting but I always have a feeling that it is the kind of thing which cannot be repaired and has to be thrown away as soon as it fails.

For now, for very small loads the bucket works for me. I would just add some jiggling to it but other than that I do not mind filling and emptying by hand. To give it some movement with little energy I let it hang while I hold the handle in my hand and I give it a swirling motion. It takes very little energy and I have been thinking how I could duplicate it with a small motor.

[gildasd]

Water hammer arrestors are a good idea. When renovating I would install a blind, vertical section of pipe to act as hammer arrestor.

Commercially available arrestors have a bladder to prevent the air from dissolving in the water but the amount of air is quite small. If you install a length of pipe you will have more air but it may eventually dissolve in the water if the water itself does not bring enough air with it in which case you would need to empty the water once in a while and let some more air in.

And the bladders end up failing as well. Nothing is eternal. At one time I had an upside-down clear glass bottle as a hammer arrestor so I could see the water level inside.

Installing blind pipes is a bit of a no no especially if it can sustain an air pocket, because of Pontiac disease and all that.

[james_s]

Water hammer arrestors are a good idea. When renovating I would install a blind, vertical section of pipe to act as hammer arrestor.

Commercially available arrestors have a bladder to prevent the air from dissolving in the water but the amount of air is quite small. If you install a length of pipe you will have more air but it may eventually dissolve in the water if the water itself does not bring enough air with it in which case you would need to empty the water once in a while and let some more air in.

And the bladders end up failing as well. Nothing is eternal. At one time I had an upside-down clear glass bottle as a hammer arrestor so I could see the water level inside.

Installing blind pipes is a bit of a no no especially if it can sustain an air pocket, because of Pontiac disease and all that.

I've never heard of Pontiac disease, but blind pipe sections that hold an air pocket is the standard way it has been done in the US for years, at least with copper pipe. Typically you'll find a 9-12" capped stub behind the wall extending about a foot above the shutoff valves for the individual fixtures.

Now days I think most new construction is using pex pipe though where this is probably not necessary and given pex is not anti-microbial the way copper is it might cause problems.

[Stray Electron]

Less water but ~30X the wear on the fill solenoids and the tiny SOT-223 triacs, shortening the washing machine's trip to the landfill.
Washing machines are over $1,000 and you are paying $1 a load just for the machine alone.

I know many people who replace their washing machine due to the high repair cost.  xxx's dollars to replace a sensor, board, solenoid etc.
Detergent clogging a valve, lint in the pressure sensor tubing, a bad pushbutton switch on the front panel... the machine gets thrown out into landfill.
It's great for manufacturers to keep selling new products. But higher environmental costs given less water and energy but more dumpster traffic.

   Constantly failing electronic controls are exactly why I replaced my old washer a few years ago with one made by Speed Queen.  SQ still makes washers that use an electromechanical timer and plain electromechanical float switches and solenoid valves. Oh and it's top loader too so no problems with mold or mildew. 

[james_s]

I used top loaders for years but after I got a front loader about 10 years ago I'd never want to go back. I can fit more in it, I don't have to untangle things from the agitator, my clothes last longer, and it uses about half the energy per cycle according to my Kill A Watt. I'm not sure what I'd buy if I were shopping today though, there are a lot of fancy looking machines that are very cheaply built.

[Stray Electron]

Installing blind pipes is a bit of a no no especially if it can sustain an air pocket, because of Pontiac disease and all that.

  Pontiac disease is transferred by air borne water droplets or soil containing Legionella bacteria.  You're not going to get it from a sealed water system.

  When I work on the plumbing in my house, I replace the water pipe elbows nearest each faucet with a T fitting and install a blind vertical pipe about 18" long to act as an air chamber.  I have NO water hammering and I have far more plumbing than most since I have a water well with an in ground pump, a large solar hot water collector, automatic lawn sprinklers and many other solenoid operated valves in the plumbing system.

[wraper]

SQ still makes washers that use an electromechanical timer and plain electromechanical float switches and solenoid valves.

I find them even less reliable.

Oh and it's top loader too so no problems with mold or mildew.

How does it make any difference?

[floobydust]

"...a software bug was directing the {LG} washer to use so little water that it was unable to clean our laundry and left stains remaining" Consumers Reports flunked LG WM3170CW; after April 2015 there is new software. What's the latest rev? Where's the service manual? Where's my right to repair?
Fake LG warranty "10 years for the drum motor (stator, rotor, hall sensor)" and 1 year for all the rest.

Use of non-HE detergent apparently kills the drum bearings in any front-loading washer. Also the drum spider arms corrode and break on Whirlpool, Samsung, LG etc.
Replacing LG washing machine fill solenoids, Youtube videos 175K views.

I could go on and on but appliances are over-dependent on the embedded system to generate features and sell points. The complexity is so great that service and repair is difficult and these machines are disposable now.

[soldar]

Installing blind pipes is a bit of a no no especially if it can sustain an air pocket, because of Pontiac disease and all that.

I had never heard of "Pontiac disease" and now I find out it is the same thing as legionella. As others have already said, installing blind risers is standard in many countries and you cannot get legionella from it. At least I have never heard of a case.

The main problem with blind risers is that the air can dissolve in the water. I do not have that problem because my water brings enough air with it but it could happen. They also sell devices with a bladder in them but they are (obviously) more expensive and the bladders fail after some years.

[soldar]

I bought a clothes washer in 1972 with electro-mechanical timer, obviously. With a few repairs it lasted for decades and I finally had to replace it when I could not find replacement for the bellows (front loader). The rubber bellows had cracked at the bottom and water would leak. It lasted a good 40 years with a few repairs I did myself but finally no replacement bellows meant it could no longer be repaired. It is now in my garage. I rotated the bellows so the crack is at the top and it can drip a bit but I can still use it in the garage if I want to. The timer, the valves, everything is working fine.

The new washer spins better, faster and quieter. The old one jumps in the air when it starts spinning. Other than that any of the two work fine for me.

The old one is easier to repair as it is simpler. The day the electronics in the new one dies I'll probably have to dump the whole thing. And probably revert to the old one.

[GreyWoolfe]

We had a poor experience with a front loader that used to make Mrs GreyWoolfe grind her teeth.  Now we have a Maytag commercial top loader and dryer that work much better and no mold smell and no IoT idiocy. 

To give it some movement with little energy I let it hang while I hold the handle in my hand and I give it a swirling motion. It takes very little energy and I have been thinking how I could duplicate it with a small motor.

Here you go, already invented and it becomes a multitasker!!!!

[tooki]

This is a good reminder that just because you don't know why something works the way it does doesn't mean the engineers were high, mmkay?

I agree with this but it also doesn't mean the engineers always get it right.

And sometimes things which may be justified from a technical point of view can be annoying to the consumer.

And I realize many things change to satisfy the public at large even though they may be annoying to me in particular. The manufacturers are looking for the large market share, not outliers.

But then how much hot water gets wasted? (In the form of hot water in the pipes that cools off.) It may or may not be saving you money in the end. Remember that a modern washer uses extremely little hot water in the wash phase (like around 10l for a medium size load). Unless the washer is right next to the hot water heater, there might be that much just in the pipes...

Not a consideration in my case although I acknowledge that it might be relevant in most cases.

The enzymes in modern detergents don't need high temperatures, and in fact some of the enzymes are deactivated by heat. The detergents are, in fact, designed to do different things at different temperatures, so it's actually desirable for the wash to heat slowly.

This is all very well but we have turned doing a load of washing into a high-tech process where I have lost control whereas thirty years ago it was simpler and I had total control.

Now I give my clothes to the washer and I lose control of what happens. I cannot add clothes, I cannot speed up the process, I cannot do anything but submit to the higher authority of the washer and humbly collect my clothes when the washer is ready to return them.

I used to be able to have much more control over my washer and I liked it that way. Again, this is just me; I realize the big market consumers may prefer the way things are going now.

When I have a very small load of maybe just some underwear I will just do it manually in one of those big plastic paint buckets rather than use the washer. In fact, I have been thinking of inventing some way to hang the bucket and have a small motor shake it a bit. Maybe I should open a thread to discuss this

Sounds to me like you need to try some modern washers. The Siemens machine in my apartment lets me add clothes at any time, speed up (at higher energy cost) the cycle, or slow it down and save energy, and has cycles to support washing just a single item or two.

[soldar]

Sounds to me like you need to try some modern washers. The Siemens machine in my apartment lets me add clothes at any time, speed up (at higher energy cost) the cycle, or slow it down and save energy, and has cycles to support washing just a single item or two.

Yes, like politicians, first they create the problem which did not exist before, and later they resolve the problem that they themselves created.

[langwadt]

Now I give my clothes to the washer and I lose control of what happens. I cannot add clothes, I cannot speed up the process, I cannot do anything but submit to the higher authority of the washer and humbly collect my clothes when the washer is ready to return them.

I used to be able to have much more control over my washer and I liked it that way. Again, this is just me; I realize the big market consumers may prefer the way things are going now.

When I have a very small load of maybe just some underwear I will just do it manually in one of those big plastic paint buckets rather than use the washer. In fact, I have been thinking of inventing some way to hang the bucket and have a small motor shake it a bit. Maybe I should open a thread to discuss this

You should buy one as on the video. The fact is that when manually doing your very small load you'll most likely spend more water than modern washing machine.

https://youtu.be/ouri6W7dgvM

https://i.redd.it/cecjw83edez21.gif

[Stray Electron]

SQ still makes washers that use an electromechanical timer and plain electromechanical float switches and solenoid valves.

I find them even less reliable.

Oh and it's top loader too so no problems with mold or mildew.

How does it make any difference?

 1)  I don't. I've never had to replace or repair one but I guess it depends on how clean your incoming water is. Also the chlorine level in the water could be a problem.  Since I'm on a well, I do have some fine sand in the water but I have replaceable element water filer on the water line coming into the house and a second one on the cold water inlet to the washer (it gets double filtered).

2)  Top loader means that the water drain is in the bottom of the tub and it drains better than a side loader. I've never heard of a top loader having mold or mildew or odor problems but those are common in side loaders.

[wraper]

2)  Top loader means that the water drain is in the bottom of the tub and it drains better than a side loader. I've never heard of a top loader having mold or mildew or odor problems but those are common in side loaders.

And where do you think front loaders have water drain located, on top?  Googling shows enough of top loader pictures with mold.

[edy]

2)  Top loader means that the water drain is in the bottom of the tub and it drains better than a side loader. I've never heard of a top loader having mold or mildew or odor problems but those are common in side loaders.

And where do you think front loaders have water drain located, on top?  Googling shows enough of top loader pictures with mold.

I think the issue with side-loaders is that mold develops in the GASKET that lines the door, as it has a whole bunch of little grooves and drain holes and water gets in that gasket. That happened to my machine even though we took meticulous care of it, and it ended up being the subject of a class-action lawsuit (https://www.consumerreports.org/washing-machines/settlement-in-front-loader-mold-case/) which of course was settled in the USA but never was applied to anyone in Canada (we are always getting screwed this way). Top-loaders wouldn't have that door gasket issue.

[free_electron]

this moldy gasket problem is weird to me. In europe almost all machines are front loaders, and they never have issues with mold.

[tooki]

Sounds to me like you need to try some modern washers. The Siemens machine in my apartment lets me add clothes at any time, speed up (at higher energy cost) the cycle, or slow it down and save energy, and has cycles to support washing just a single item or two.

Yes, like politicians, first they create the problem which did not exist before, and later they resolve the problem that they themselves created.

What are you babbling about? The appliance makers never wanted the strict efficiency standards, that was entirely the politicians’ doing.

Besides, you totally missed the point: YOUR washer might not give you those options, but there definitely are models that do, and this is nothing new.

[james_s]

I could go on and on but appliances are over-dependent on the embedded system to generate features and sell points. The complexity is so great that service and repair is difficult and these machines are disposable now.

That's similar to everything and it all comes down to cost. Look up what a good quality washing machine cost in say 1975, then look up what the average wage was back then. I suspect you'll find that a basic washer and dryer cost more back then than a top of the line set does today when adjusted for inflation. Major appliances were a major investment in the past, they were made to last and most people kept a set for 20+ years.

People are addicted to cheap crap, the average person doesn't look at the long term, they just see what it costs now, and what fancy features it touts. It's a race to the bottom that affects all of us because everyone starts cutting corners to compete.