Author Topic: [No]Should I design an inverter?  (Read 14639 times)

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Offline blueskullTopic starter

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[No]Should I design an inverter?
« on: June 25, 2016, 01:56:04 am »
I've been suffering from power outages for a while thanks to the power company does nothing on maintaining their wires.
I bought a Black and Decker 500W inverter just in case. Well, I had a chance to use it, as we had another power outage yesterday evening. To my surprise, it can not even power 2 22'' monitors, let along the computer.
I searched on Amazon for some good deals, and this time I was focusing on higher quality pure sine wave ones. Unfortunately, none of the low power ones look well built -- I do not want to waste money on a well build 2kW+ system, I just want to get a high quality 500~600W one.
Also, most cheap inverters use input ground as HV bus ground, that poses some safety hazard. I want one with its neutral wire connected to ground, or the HV subsystem completely isolated.

So, should I spend some time on building a super high efficiency 600W inverter? I do have the technology to build a 96%+ efficiency one, but that will cost me some time, at least a week, 2 hours per day. Do you think it's worth it?

New design thread started https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/weekend-project-pure-sine-wave-inverter/ .
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 09:54:44 pm by blueskull »
 

Offline Rerouter

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2016, 02:08:31 am »
How about something like this?

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slaa602/slaa602.pdf

Only painful part in my head would be the magnetics, as those tend to be expensive for those power levels,
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2016, 02:11:32 am »
Check to make sure the inverter you have is not a fake? A real 500W inverter should have no problem running most home electronics.
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Offline MK14

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2016, 02:15:05 am »
I've been suffering from power outages for a while thanks to the power company does nothing on maintaining their wires.
I bought a Black and Decker 500W inverter just in case. Well, I had a chance to use it, as we had another power outage yesterday evening. To my surprise, it can not even power 2 22'' monitors, let along the computer.
I searched on Amazon for some good deals, and this time I was focusing on higher quality pure sine wave ones. Unfortunately, none of the low power ones look well built -- I do not want to waste money on a well build 2kW+ system, I just want to get a high quality 500~600W one.
Also, most cheap inverters use input ground as HV bus ground, that poses some safety hazard. I want one with its neutral wire connected to ground, or the HV subsystem completely isolated.

So, should I spend some time on building a super high efficiency 600W inverter? I do have the technology to build a 96%+ efficiency one, but that will cost me some time, at least a week, 2 hours per day. Do you think it's worth it?

Obviously you used it in "500 Watt" mode ?

NOT in "100 Watt" mode, via the car lighter input thingy and/or socket ?

tl;dr
It is limited to 100W, depending on how you connect it up (apparently).
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2016, 02:37:55 am »
I will only consider sine wave inverters for continuous use. Modified sine is a mess.

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Offline MK14

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2016, 02:43:59 am »
I wouldn't plug an inverter with 400w potential load (a high end pc and 2 monitors) in my cigarette socket. I'm not an idiot.
I checked the battery, which is also fine. I even turned off AC and started the engine.
The car, FYI, is a carefully and periodically maintained 2013 Accord.

Ok, sorry if you thought I was being rude.

You might be very surprised, if you knew some of the silly mistakes, apparently well educated electronics engineers and similar can make.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2016, 02:50:59 am »
Forget about crap Home Depot B&D inverters and the like. A quality 600W PSW inverter can be bought for less than $200.

Should you design and build one? It depends on how much your time is worth or whether doing it is a worthwhile project in itself.
 
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2016, 03:55:36 am »
If you only want to run electronics, just have it output 170V or so DC.
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2016, 04:47:36 am »
There's a big push for HVDC power distribution in the data center for efficiency reasons. Apart from reduced losses at the source, it also reduces losses at the load. That's especially true for loads with PFC.

Now if you're planning on making it capable of driving motors, do it right by making it a full fledged VFD. Doing a V/Hz soft start really helps start motor loads, just beware there may be patent issues if you're planning on selling it. Scaling down the voltage/frequency reduces the power usage of motor loads and can easily extend battery runtime by a significant amount.
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2016, 05:12:30 am »
I think the patent (if it exists) specifically focuses on standalone single phase inverters that use the V/Hz ramp up to ease starting of motor loads. Vector (a brand of cheap but decent inverters) once implemented it but no longer do, while Samlex (one of the premium brands of inverters) has been offering it for a long time. I have a 400W Vector that I reverse engineered and the soft start feature is just a ramp up to 120v/60Hz in about half a second. A simple RC circuit is what controls the ramp up and costs very little to implement. In a higher end inverter with digital control, the ramp up is merely a few lines of code that costs virtually nothing to implement.
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Offline Seekonk

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2016, 12:55:00 pm »
Check out the 8010 boards on ebay for about $7. A complete sine wave driver board, just add FETS for H bridge or transformer.  Just about plug and play.  See http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148953.0.html for an example of use.  There are several threads there related to this.
 

Offline station240

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2016, 05:37:35 pm »
If you can build a 500W 96%+ efficiency inverter then go for it.
Vampire current draw, and efficiency do seem to be common problems with store bought ones.
Hence you either reduce the life of the battery (risk of overdischarge), or just get less runtime.
 
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2016, 05:48:18 pm »
A good part of the idle current is due to the output filter. (Same effect happens in some audio amplifiers, often to an even greater extent.) That can be reduced with a lower loss inductor (will increase cost and size), but why when the simple way out is to just output DC if you're running electronics? For motors, it can make more sense to run them off PoL inverters (VFDs) that can vary the frequency a much wider range than a general purpose inverter can.
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Offline ez24

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2016, 06:58:13 pm »
Does China have Home Depots? (your flag says China)  Would love to see some pics of one.  I wonder if they look like our Ikea.
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2016, 06:58:44 pm »
Try changing the polarity of the input? A few PSUs need the DC polarity one way for them to start.

Transformer isolation doesn't work very well at the extreme duty cycles often found in inverter applications.
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Offline diyaudio

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2016, 08:26:02 pm »
I've been suffering from power outages for a while thanks to the power company does nothing on maintaining their wires.
I bought a Black and Decker 500W inverter just in case. Well, I had a chance to use it, as we had another power outage yesterday evening. To my surprise, it can not even power 2 22'' monitors, let along the computer.
I searched on Amazon for some good deals, and this time I was focusing on higher quality pure sine wave ones. Unfortunately, none of the low power ones look well built -- I do not want to waste money on a well build 2kW+ system, I just want to get a high quality 500~600W one.
Also, most cheap inverters use input ground as HV bus ground, that poses some safety hazard. I want one with its neutral wire connected to ground, or the HV subsystem completely isolated.

So, should I spend some time on building a super high efficiency 600W inverter? I do have the technology to build a 96%+ efficiency one, but that will cost me some time, at least a week, 2 hours per day. Do you think it's worth it?

600W, x1 EPCOS etd54 + simple SG3525A + fets, pcb.
however R&D time is the most expensive aspect especially winding those dam transformers manually and getting the control loop control stable. at that power level, its worth trying for.   
   
 

Offline bitslice

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2016, 01:16:16 am »
Does China have Home Depots? (your flag says China)  Would love to see some pics of one.  I wonder if they look like our Ikea.

I live in the US.

Which isn't super helpful when other people are trying to evaluate your options...

btw, derate any inverter by 5 to get the actual output. Yo marketing.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2016, 01:58:17 am »
It could have been the inrush current from startup that shut it down - not the average current.
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2016, 02:30:09 am »
btw, derate any inverter by 5 to get the actual output. Yo marketing.

It depends on the brand. My Outback inverter meets it specs without breaking a sweat.

Like most things. You get what you pay for.

Any good inverter will have a brief max power output far above it's rated output to account for motor or compressor startups, etc.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 02:31:58 am by mtdoc »
 

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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2016, 12:33:27 pm »
How can you not like this solution?  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pure-Sine-Wave-Inverter-Driver-board-EGS002-EG8010-IR2110-Driver-Module-/171460635650?hash=item27ebd9ac02:g:iuIAAOSwfcVUKkIe

http://www.lz2gl.com/data/power-inverter-3kw/eg8010_datasheet_en.pdf

The module manual:
http://www.egmicro.com/download/EGS002_manual_en.pdf

WTF? Why is the Neutral line being driven, and without filtering?  [reads datasheet...] Oh, I see. Urrgh. That's completely unacceptable.

This thread is interesting. But if someone (or several cooperatively) were going to do an open-source mains inverter design, rather then just jumping into schematics a better initial stage would be a thread discussing design objectives.
Because there's a lot of potential to do something really useful, considering the various reasons why there doesn't seem to be an open source 'power independence' inverter system already.

For example, the design could ignore:
 - patent restrictions.
 - government policy prohibiting true grid-tied/grid-free/no-dropout transitioning systems, able to do 'quiet grid load profiling'. ie injecting power into the local side of a grid-tied system, to reduce consumption from the grid, while looking like a standard power-consuming household. For when you have some local power source, but don't want to announce it to anyone, and it's illegal in your area to actually disconnect completely from the grid. Or you do still need grid power sometimes.
 - government prohibitions of building-cluster or small community private distributed power sharing systems.

Also including:
 - Ability to disconnect (main contactor) from the grid and reconnect, without transients and dropouts. Means your local inverter has to be able to accurately sync up to and waveform-match the grid before reconnecting, and smoothly shoulder all your local  load before disconnecting.

 - Basic inverter module (of say 1KW) able to be paralleled up for higher power and redundancy.
 - Ability to run one, two or three banks of inverters, phase locked correctly to provider single or three phase power for machine tools. (or 2 phases if needed for some reason.)

 - Flexible power origin and storage management subsystems. Solar panels, battery banks, local DC LV household bus, etc.
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2016, 12:33:49 am »
http://www.lz2gl.com/data/power-inverter-3kw/eg8010_datasheet_en.pdf

The module manual:
http://www.egmicro.com/download/EGS002_manual_en.pdf

WTF? Why is the Neutral line being driven, and without filtering?  [reads datasheet...] Oh, I see. Urrgh. That's completely unacceptable.

Why? I can see unipolar much more cost effective than bipolar solutions, and has potentially lower loss and size. The reason I use bipolar is because I want better THD, and GaN devices simply introduces so low loss that it won't hurt.

Because in their reference design, the Neutral line has an unfiltered non-sinusoidal HV signal on it. This means it can't be used with standard home wiring since a) not safe, and b) lots of EMI radiation. Oh, and no DC isolation between AC mains and battery system.

Quote
This thread is interesting. But if someone (or several cooperatively) were going to do an open-source mains inverter design, rather then just jumping into schematics a better initial stage would be a thread discussing design objectives.
Because there's a lot of potential to do something really useful, considering the various reasons why there doesn't seem to be an open source 'power independence' inverter system already.

This design is not intended for extension or expansion. This is just a pinched decision as well as a showcase of wide band gap devices.

Sorry, I am aware you just need a quick fix. I should have made it clearer I wasn't criticizing your efforts. Just commenting that it could be useful if this forum also did a wider scope inverter design process, with an initial 'decide on objectives' stage.

Quote
For example, the design could ignore:
 - patent restrictions.
 - government policy prohibiting true grid-tied/grid-free/no-dropout transitioning systems, able to do 'quiet grid load profiling'. ie injecting power into the local side of a grid-tied system, to reduce consumption from the grid, while looking like a standard power-consuming household. For when you have some local power source, but don't want to announce it to anyone, and it's illegal in your area to actually disconnect completely from the grid. Or you do still need grid power sometimes.
 - government prohibitions of building-cluster or small community private distributed power sharing systems.

From you various post and our PM, it seems like you are very anti-government. Be my guest to start whatever anti government designs, I'm not in. I would like to keep my visa.
You're right, I am. Though substitute 'corporate & financial-elites fascism' for 'government'. Government operating under the thumb of the financial powers is just one face of that evil. Not unique to any country.
Being critical of such things is not an unusual position these days, and for good reason.
I do understand your position on this, and on the other matter. Yours is also a widely held view. A little cowardly, and in general people ignoring wrongs and saying nothing enables the excesses of the power-hungry bastards, but it's your choice. (One you may ultimately regret, I think.)

"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more - we had no awareness of the real situation... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward."
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By the way, not long after this article appeared:
20160502
http://www.womenofchina.cn/womenofchina/html1/news/china/1604/2230-1.htm
President Xi Jinping Asks Officials to Respect Intellectuals' Creativity, Criticism

that person I spoke to you about began posting again, and is OK. Ostensibly no connection between these events, but then if there was, it wouldn't be admitted.

Quote
Also including:
 - Ability to disconnect (main contactor) from the grid and reconnect, without transients and dropouts. Means your local inverter has to be able to accurately sync up to and waveform-match the grid before reconnecting, and smoothly shoulder all your local  load before disconnecting.

 - Basic inverter module (of say 1KW) able to be paralleled up for higher power and redundancy.
 - Ability to run one, two or three banks of inverters, phase locked correctly to provider single or three phase power for machine tools. (or 2 phases if needed for some reason.)

 - Flexible power origin and storage management subsystems. Solar panels, battery banks, local DC LV household bus, etc.

I'm originally designing for a module that is not much bigger than any other modules such like an ECU, sitting under the hood, and operate at automotive temperature.
Then I connect AC output wires through a socket mounted inside and in front of my car, while ON/OFF switch connected to main key switch.
This gives me a poor man's gasoline generator good up to 600W.
Sure, quite useful, especially given the crappy quality of cheaply available inverters. I have something much the same, for car camping. Couple of solar panels, a commercial panel-battery management unit, large 12V lead acid battery, and a small inverter. For remote car-camping, it's not a good idea to draw from the main car battery.
I can also use it at home during power outages, but since the cable Internet also goes down then, it doesn't help much.
One reason I keep an old fashioned wired phone land line. No net via it though.

But for home power, it annoys me that the standard grid-tied no-battery solar panel installation inverters seem to all be designed to deliberately be impossible to adapt to stand-alone battery storage operation. And systems that are designed to run in isolation with batteries, don't seem to have provision for agile grid connect/disconnect.
Seems like the official reasoning is "we will subsidize grid load reduction via solar, but certainly won't allow anything that might provide suburban households with an option to disconnect from the grid, either intermittently or permanently."

Btw, with your system don't forget that the car battery is grounded to the chassis. If your 120V AC output is not isolated, and somehow gets connected to other household wiring, you might end up with a dangerous voltage between your car body and ground.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 12:39:24 am by TerraHertz »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2016, 01:02:40 am »
Then I connect AC output wires through a socket mounted inside and in front of my car, while ON/OFF switch connected to main key switch.
This gives me a poor man's gasoline generator good up to 600W.
Why not just get a small generator set? An alternator in a car doesn't work very well at idle speeds.
A long time ago I equiped a car with a reasonable amount of computer equipment and used a 2kW pure sine wave inverter to turn 12V into 230V. Maybe the actual load was around 500W but even that made the new alternator smell (I had the car equiped with the most powerful alternator which fitted on that car). Still when running idle for longer periods the alternator just couldn't keep up and the voltage dropped below the inverter's threshold. Luckely I also included a UPS in the setup which then took over (there was more cleverness in this system BTW).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2016, 02:15:13 am »
It seems the market is flooded with cheap square wave inverters, would be nice to see more availability of pure sine high capacity inverters.

What would be neat is rackmount inverters where you can add modules to add more capacity.  Then it would feed say, a 100a transfer switch that goes to the main electrical panel.   You could then have solar system or other power source power the inverters, but if that system fails you can transfer to regular commercial AC.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Should I design an inverter?
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2016, 02:19:38 am »
But for home power, it annoys me that the standard grid-tied no-battery solar panel installation inverters seem to all be designed to deliberately be impossible to adapt to stand-alone battery storage operation. And systems that are designed to run in isolation with batteries, don't seem to have provision for agile grid connect/disconnect.

Not true at all.  Outback Power, Schneider Electric, Magnum, SMA, and others all sell such inverters.
 


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