So you want to be an Electrical Engineer? Exam score distribution nightmare.

[EncomLab]

The grade distribution in my AC Circuits analysis class for our last test and final exam.  I think "bloodbath" about sums it up lol.  Though to be fair this prof did not allow us to use any notes or formula sheets and we are issued calculators by the school for exams so if you were not ready you were in trouble.

[jfri2]

That distribution looks pretty normal (for the engineering world at least) to me. A 13 person class too? That's pretty awesome - I didn't see class sizes that small until I got into upper level elective type classes.

[CatalinaWOW]

My school had a junior level control systems course.  Required for all EE degrees.  The average grade for several years running was a high D (acceptable for graduation as long as overall GPA was OK).  A significant fraction of the class failed and had to repeat to graduate.  The returnees did help bring the average up.  I escaped with a C and was very happy with it.  The follow on senior level course was not nearly as difficult.

[Hypernova]

I failed:
2nd year engineering math x1
2nd year electronics x2
3rd year Control Systems x2

This was all at Auckland Uni, barely made it out of there as they were all mandatory courses and you were only allowed three tries per course. C+'s were a cause for celebration and the only A I ever got was 4th year Project.

No one at work would believe me when I tell them that their "R&D Manager" is just a below average engineer.

[Seekonk]

I had a professor back before political correctness.  A student would ask a question.  He would stare at them for a minute and then say, You don't belong here. 

[Kleinstein]

The results look pretty normal. That is about what you have to expect. The only unusual is the small course. When you look at math classes results are often even way lower, at least in the beginning.

I remember a math test in university where only 1 out of about 80 of the computer science students had passed. The others had to repeat that test. According to the teachers this was not that far of expectations.

[Alex Eisenhut]

Here's another distribution which should concern you a lot more:

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/electrical-and-electronics-engineers.htm#tab-1

Job Outlook, 2014-24    0% (Little or no change)

Now take a look at how many students are in each university.

[EncomLab]

Alex I agree that number is concerning - though with IoT just starting to grow, a shift toward hardware automation strategies in industries other than manufacturing and some unknown pacing with new areas of embedded systems in things like self-driving cars- that number may be a low estimate. 

[Seekonk]

I had a professor back before political correctness.  A student would ask a question.  He would stare at them for a minute and then say, You don't belong here.

I'm not sure what to think. On the one hand, he comes across as a huge dick. On the other hand, if he saved the student a year of struggling and eventually failing, it might actually have been a good move. But I know some (most?) people are quite sensitive to this kind of remarks. I would feel really, really bad about myself.

Of course, from a didactic perspective, this is completely wrong; I don't think any student would feel comfortable asking a question after that. So in my opinion he's just a huge dick.

I did feel it was a little excessive for those students at the time.  But, what he said was true. These students had not done their homework reading and were not prepared for the class.  They wanted to be spoon fed everything.  They thought they were still in high school and only had to be smarter than the dumb kids that weren't going anywhere.  The questions were not of any quality.  I consider him one of my best teachers ever.  Can barely remember the others.  We all need to reflect if we are trying our best.

I think about the implications of having an engineer that only gets 75% of the answers right.  Actually, I see it every day.  It is absurd that in education we move people on after obtaining a minimal understanding, compounding learning in the next course. 

[EncomLab]

I think about the implications of having an engineer that only gets 75% of the answers right.  Actually, I see it every day.  It is absurd that in education we move people on after obtaining a minimal understanding, compounding learning in the next course. 

Though to be fair this prof did not allow us to use any notes or formula sheets and we are issued calculators by the school for exams so if you were not ready you were in trouble.

There was another section of the same class and the prof allowed a formula sheet for exams - which I still think is BS - but by the end of the semester I was proud to have made it through without it. 

[Jeroen3]

Nothing to worry about. An equivalent to AC analysis had about 70% redo rate during my embedded systems course. (including me)
They've now decided to merge embedded systems with electronics engineering, and pull it apart after the first year when everybody should have at least basic electronics knowledge.

Meanwhile, later on in the course, the digital signal processing course, created another so called bloodbath. (excluding me, for some reason)

Engineering studies see a lot of students leave halfway. Which is good in my opinion. If they were to adjust the grading to make a wider group pass. A lot of engineers would fail later in their job, which has larger personal financial complications than an unfinished study.

[CatalinaWOW]

I had a professor back before political correctness.  A student would ask a question.  He would stare at them for a minute and then say, You don't belong here.

I'm not sure what to think. On the one hand, he comes across as a huge dick. On the other hand, if he saved the student a year of struggling and eventually failing, it might actually have been a good move. But I know some (most?) people are quite sensitive to this kind of remarks. I would feel really, really bad about myself.

Of course, from a didactic perspective, this is completely wrong; I don't think any student would feel comfortable asking a question after that. So in my opinion he's just a huge dick.

I did feel it was a little excessive for those students at the time.  But, what he said was true. These students had not done their homework reading and were not prepared for the class.  They wanted to be spoon fed everything.  They thought they were still in high school and only had to be smarter than the dumb kids that weren't going anywhere.  The questions were not of any quality.  I consider him one of my best teachers ever.  Can barely remember the others.  We all need to reflect if we are trying our best.

I think about the implications of having an engineer that only gets 75% of the answers right.  Actually, I see it every day.  It is absurd that in education we move people on after obtaining a minimal understanding, compounding learning in the next course.

Engineers are supposed to produce 100%, in spite of the fact that almost none scored 100% on their tests.  How can that be?  They are different problems.  Working from memory with no resources is standard for tests.  It occurs occasionally in work environments, but it isn't the norm.  Working to a deadline is common to both situations, but exams are designed to take 100% of the allocated time, while properly bid engineering jobs usually only take about a third (1 shift) of the allocated time.  Leaving two thirds of the time for make up/catch up/learning and false starts.  Unfortunately a lot of that time gets used very often, and by the less foresighted among us, just before scheduled delivery.  And finally, do overs are more common in the real world than they are in school.  Model revs are almost standard, whereas it is a joyful occurrence to be able to retake a flubbed test.

One of the useful skills in an engineer is the ability to keep poking at a problem until it is well and truly solved.  It is possible that these really difficult classes help develop the persistence in the face of adversity that is needed to stick with the tough problems.

Of course there are other reasons.  When I was in grad school the math courses were taught out of the math department.  The instructors and professors resented the fact that more than half of the class attendance were engineers and physicists, not math people.  They tried really hard to weed out the "impure ones".  And developed even more resentment when the "impure ones" did better than those who were pure math types.  Probably was because the math had practical applications even though it was esoteric stuff.

[timb]

I had a professor back before political correctness.  A student would ask a question.  He would stare at them for a minute and then say, You don't belong here.

I'm not sure what to think. On the one hand, he comes across as a huge dick. On the other hand, if he saved the student a year of struggling and eventually failing, it might actually have been a good move. But I know some (most?) people are quite sensitive to this kind of remarks. I would feel really, really bad about myself.

Of course, from a didactic perspective, this is completely wrong; I don't think any student would feel comfortable asking a question after that. So in my opinion he's just a huge dick.

I did feel it was a little excessive for those students at the time.  But, what he said was true. These students had not done their homework reading and were not prepared for the class.  They wanted to be spoon fed everything.  They thought they were still in high school and only had to be smarter than the dumb kids that weren't going anywhere.  The questions were not of any quality.  I consider him one of my best teachers ever.  Can barely remember the others.  We all need to reflect if we are trying our best.

I think about the implications of having an engineer that only gets 75% of the answers right.  Actually, I see it every day.  It is absurd that in education we move people on after obtaining a minimal understanding, compounding learning in the next course.

Engineers are supposed to produce 100%, in spite of the fact that almost none scored 100% on their tests.  How can that be?  They are different problems.  Working from memory with no resources is standard for tests.  It occurs occasionally in work environments, but it isn't the norm.

See, that's the problem I have with tests like this. It rewards people that are poor problem solvers, but have exceptional memories and punishes people who might be exceptional problem solvers but have poor memory.

My memory isn't the best and I rely heavily on lab books full of formulas and information. I can do the work; I understand the concepts, I'm just not good at memorizing large amounts of data!

And like you said, in a work environment you'll have access to any amount of information you need. So why shouldn't I be able to use that when I take a test?

[EncomLab]

My memory isn't the best and I rely heavily on lab books full of formulas and information. I can do the work; I understand the concepts, I'm just not good at memorizing large amounts of data!

This is a conversation I had with several of my fellow students - basically "yes theory is important, but outside of class I'm using Multisim, Eagle, and Google on the PC along with apps like ElectroDroid and EveryCircuit on my phone to actually build things and solve problems."  The CAD guys are not starting out on drafting tables, the Civil guys are doing everything by GPS and digital theodolites and here we are hand working Thevenin problems from memory - how does this really prepare us for industry?  You guys that are actually out there working - when is the last time your boss had you Thevenize a circuit and show all your conversions from polar to rectangular or he would dock your pay?

[timb]

I'll give you a perfect example... Recently I get a speeding ticket (even though I wasn't speeding) and instead of just paying the fine, I went to court. After presenting my evidence to the judge, he gave me the option of taking a Driver Improvement course and having the ticket dismissed. Great!

So, I found out I could do the course online. Sweet, right? Yeah... You can do the course, but you have to go to a testing location for the final test. So this course was full of these really specific statistics, like the exact number of drunk drivers killed in a specific year. When I say exact, I mean exact, not rounded down, like 1,567 instead of 1500. These were actually questions on the test!

Then there's questions like, "how many feet does it take to stop from 55mph, on asphalt with overinflated tires in the rain." I'm not making this shit up. It was crazy.

10 hours worth of material, with little nuggets like that buried inside.

So, I studied the best I could, tried to memorize as much as I could, and went to take the test...

Apparently The UPS Store does proctored testing for a bunch of companies, including the one I did the Driver Improvement course through, so I drove an hour to the closest location, the guy logs into the system and wanders off. I start the test (which isn't timed), go through and get all the relevant questions out of the way ("What color is a stop sign?", "Who has the right of way at a 4-way intersection?", "What do you do when parking on a hill?", etc.) and completely draw a blank on most of the statistical questions...

Then I realized, nobody is actually watching me. The guy at the counter is dealing with a line of customers and probably doesn't give a shit anyway... So, I pulled out my phone, loaded up the course material and just looked up the answers that way!

The worst part is, some of the questions didn't even have the correct answer (it was multiple choice)! Or either the course material was wrong...

Anyway, I have the hardest time memorizing random data like that. In this case, it was pointless information that doesn't help me as a driver and that I'll never actually use. I don't need to know the exact distance it takes to stop a car (which isn't even accurate as that depends on multiple factors including type of vehicle, type of tire, road conditions and so forth).

Ughhhh... So, so stupid! At least I passed.

[CatalinaWOW]

I'll give you a perfect example... Recently I get a speeding ticket (even though I wasn't speeding) and instead of just paying the fine, I went to court. After presenting my evidence to the judge, he gave me the option of taking a Driver Improvement course and having the ticket dismissed. Great!

So, I found out I could do the course online. Sweet, right? Yeah... You can do the course, but you have to go to a testing location for the final test. So this course was full of these really specific statistics, like the exact number of drunk drivers killed in a specific year. When I say exact, I mean exact, not rounded down, like 1,567 instead of 1500. These were actually questions on the test!

Then there's questions like, "how many feet does it take to stop from 55mph, on asphalt with overinflated tires in the rain." I'm not making this shit up. It was crazy.

10 hours worth of material, with little nuggets like that buried inside.

So, I studied the best I could, tried to memorize as much as I could, and went to take the test...

Apparently The UPS Store does proctored testing for a bunch of companies, including the one I did the Driver Improvement course through, so I drove an hour to the closest location, the guy logs into the system and wanders off. I start the test (which isn't timed), go through and get all the relevant questions out of the way ("What color is a stop sign?", "Who has the right of way at a 4-way intersection?", "What do you do when parking on a hill?", etc.) and completely draw a blank on most of the statistical questions...

Then I realized, nobody is actually watching me. The guy at the counter is dealing with a line of customers and probably doesn't give a shit anyway... So, I pulled out my phone, loaded up the course material and just looked up the answers that way!

The worst part is, some of the questions didn't even have the correct answer (it was multiple choice)! Or either the course material was wrong...

Anyway, I have the hardest time memorizing random data like that. In this case, it was pointless information that doesn't help me as a driver and that I'll never actually use. I don't need to know the exact distance it takes to stop a car (which isn't even accurate as that depends on multiple factors including type of vehicle, type of tire, road conditions and so forth).

Ughhhh... So, so stupid! At least I passed.

What timb did was what engineers are supposed to do.  He found a creative solution to a problem.  There are other solutions this problem in addition to his and deep memorization.   They all have weaknesses and strengths.  A really good engineer thinks of several and then selects the one with the best balance of features.

[jimdeane]

I had a professor back before political correctness.  A student would ask a question.  He would stare at them for a minute and then say, You don't belong here.

"I'm here to learn things I don't yet know.  You're here to teach people things they need to know.  Maybe one of us doesn't belong here, but it sure as hell isn't me."

[rrinker]

 This has nothing on my Signals and Systems course. It's been 30 years and I still hold a bit of a grudge. It seems the math department decided to experiment with adjustments in the curriculum. This was the level when you start doing matrix math and other advanced stuff - taken the semester before the S & S course for EE's. They decided to cut Fourier Transforms and related subjects for half of the math sections. Step ahead to next semester, in S&S, now half the students have seen Fourier Transforms before, the other half have not. Test results reflected this - EVERY exam had a double bell curve (yay boobies...  ). Easily correlated to the half of the class that was doing FT for the first time and the half that was seeing it for the second time. Professor would always say that because of the upper average, no scaling could be offered. As a result, half the class (I was one of those 'lucky' ones) failed that class and had to pay and retake it over the summer in order to stay on track. Second time around, no problem getting an A, but because of an 'experiment' by the math department, it cost me for the class plus the less time I had to work at my summer job.

[TheDane]

The grade distribution in my AC Circuits analysis class for our last test and final exam.  I think "bloodbath" about sums it up lol.  Though to be fair this prof did not allow us to use any notes or formula sheets and we are issued calculators by the school for exams so if you were not ready you were in trouble.

Hope you passed 

When I did my B.Sc.E.E we had a math exam where we could not use anything! (No notes, books, calculators, etc.)
Pen and paper only. This was about 15 years ago. It was announced, so it didn't come as a surprise - the calculations themselves were relative 'simple' - but the math wasn't.

[Towger]

I have seen the same with computer science.  Started with about mid 50s in the class and dwindled down to 12 at the end. The bulk dropped out after the 1st year. Again it could be split into groups, those with experience, real interest or worked hard.

I don't think it is still this way but in one of the main Irish collages Computer Science was run by the maths department.  They produced graduates who were brilliant at maths, but they had next to no computer experience. Admittedly this was about 20 years ago before everyone had a PC at home.  We had a couple of these fellows and just watching them find the on switch was interesting. 

[djacobow]

I've been trying to point this out to potential EEs for awhile. In the West, this career path is in decline because it is tied to manufacturing and because a lot of "design" work can be done with people of limited capability. (See "maker" movement.)

If you are good, you probably will always have work, but the overall reduction in demand for EE skills will hurt your earning prospects.

I'm going to encourage my kids to look elsewhere, even though daddy loves being an EE.

[basinstreetdesign]

When I entered university I was in a class of about 1000.  During the first week one of the profs said that by graduation time 2/3 of us would be gone for various reasons.  He said to look at the two people left and right of you.  If at least one of them doesn't look stupid, to start worrying.  He was pretty bang on that statistic.  It was only those who took the courses seriously who got through.

Yeah, I can believe the grade distribution the OP quotes.

Perhaps the driving test had the same intent.  It wasn't about the questions but about taking the material seriously.

Another time when a junior engineer started bugging me to make a tricky scope measurement for him I gave him a task.  I told him to study every control and function of that scope and in a couple of days I would test him on how to use it.  I never tested him.  My purpose was just to get him to learn his tools so he wouldn't be asking others to do his job for him.

[hans]

Isn't 50% failure of introductory/weed out (math) classes pretty common?

I've had a Calculus A exam a few weeks ago and just over half of ~300 students passed. Scoring out of 10: Average was 5,6, but median however was 6,1. Pass was a 5,5. Considering you get the first point for free.. I'm amazed that almost 30 students didn't past a 2,0.

The test wasn't that hard. In summary it was some integration stuff and geometric gradients. This stuff is used over and over again in each subsequent courses like vector calculus, fourier, laplace and signal theory.

It's amazing to see how fast the class shrunk after test results came in. Half of the material is not taught in colleges because of time. The rest is self study, which admittedly took a lot of time. Some students have decided to skip colleges for that reason and rather self study everything anyway. Some of them are quite bright people and get better grades than some who go to every class.

[..]

Engineers are supposed to produce 100%, in spite of the fact that almost none scored 100% on their tests.  How can that be?  They are different problems.  Working from memory with no resources is standard for tests.  It occurs occasionally in work environments, but it isn't the norm.  Working to a deadline is common to both situations, but exams are designed to take 100% of the allocated time, while properly bid engineering jobs usually only take about a third (1 shift) of the allocated time.  Leaving two thirds of the time for make up/catch up/learning and false starts.  Unfortunately a lot of that time gets used very often, and by the less foresighted among us, just before scheduled delivery.  And finally, do overs are more common in the real world than they are in school.  Model revs are almost standard, whereas it is a joyful occurrence to be able to retake a flubbed test.

One of the useful skills in an engineer is the ability to keep poking at a problem until it is well and truly solved.  It is possible that these really difficult classes help develop the persistence in the face of adversity that is needed to stick with the tough problems.

Of course there are other reasons.  When I was in grad school the math courses were taught out of the math department.  The instructors and professors resented the fact that more than half of the class attendance were engineers and physicists, not math people.  They tried really hard to weed out the "impure ones".  And developed even more resentment when the "impure ones" did better than those who were pure math types.  Probably was because the math had practical applications even though it was esoteric stuff.

Indeed this is pretty common. But in college, at least initially, there are different approaches. I also get all my courses right now from mathematicians. These are much more purists towards solving theoratical questions. One example; they rather not have solution manuals for their courses. How do you otherwise check your answer is correct is their reasoning?

TBH for a math test this is a good approach. Most math questions work out to 1 answer; but 1 common writing error or minus sign here or there throws everything off. Having a system of checking your own answers on a test is great. If you solved a DE; fill in the solution into the original formula to check it. If you integrated.. find the derivative again and check it. etc.

In engineering the 'poking' is indeed very common. You can do ballpark figures, build it, test it and determine what is satisfactory for your application. And you can check your build model against a simulation and then research what is wrong.

[rrinker]

 That math fiasco I posted about was bad, but even worse was my electromagnetics course. Remember this is 30 years ago so there were a lot of limits on typesetting where equations and non-ASCII characters were involved. If you've take any electromagnets courses, you know that the various equations end up using nearly every Greek letter at some point (only a slight exaggeration). The professor for this class had a thick German accent (not a problem, my background is Pennsylvania Dutch and one entire side of my family had German accents, when they weren't actually speaking it - well, the bastardized version known as PA Dutch even though it has nothing to do with the Netherlands - mostly because the German word for German is Deutsch and the English would hear this as Dutch). He also had HORRIBLE handwriting - makes mine look like the ultimate in penmanship. This was a major problem trying to take notes from what he wrote on the board, it is very easy to mix up some of those Greek letters. And here's the best part - it did no good to look in the textbook. He wrote the thing. And the university published it internally. Remember those limitations I mentioned? Well, in the text, when there was need for an equation to be written, they left blank space and they were written in by hand - by the professor who's handwriting no one could read! That was a VERY tough class to get through. These days I'd just Google a particular topic and there's be nice clear representations of the equations. That wasn't an option 30 years ago.

[tszaboo]

The grade distribution in my AC Circuits analysis class for our last test and final exam.  I think "bloodbath" about sums it up lol.  Though to be fair this prof did not allow us to use any notes or formula sheets and we are issued calculators by the school for exams so if you were not ready you were in trouble.

Notes formula sheets and calculator...
The US education system is really pathetic.

[b_force]

What i find pathetic is most of the school and university systems in general.
It's still very old fashioned, conservative and the preparation for your working career is extremely poor and terrible. On top of that unnecessarily formal and strict.

Instead of useful practical courses and really getting and understanding the fundamentals, it's more being in a hobby club. Only missing the space and time for creativity.
Everybody who works in company knows time is money.
There is absolutely not a single boss who cares if you do your calculations by hand, on a calculator or even copy the whole bloody thing. As long as it works and it's rock solid.
Yet on some universities they are so picky about it.

Sorry guys, but it's putting energy and focus on the wrong things. What are you trying to prove by putting on these rediculous limitations?

I can also see this back with the interns I need to take care of. The general knowledge is poor, also they struggle with out of the box thinking or even just know how to think in solutions and possibilities.
Some of them can barely handle a soldering iron.

I only had two teachers at my school who understod this. During examens they didn't care if you took books, cheat sheets, calculators or whatever. Also the questions where focused on engineering and problem solving skills. The correct answer wasn't important, they way to your answer was! That's teaching engineering skills. Yet, so many people failed at these tests.

For the same reason my interns get a high mark if they can think of a solution that doesn't include any real electronics or math. For example that buying in a product is cheaper, more reliable and more efficient than just developing one ourselves.
Of course they need to come up with very good arguments. This is an example they don't teach you at school but is a very important way of thinking for a company.

[tszaboo]

Instead of useful practical courses and really getting and understanding the fundamentals, it's more being in a hobby club. Only missing the space and time for creativity.

University is not there to teach you things. You are there so they can sift the idiots from people, who have remotely the chance to become engineers. Especially West Europe gets it wrong. They dont even have an Electrical Engineer BSC degree, just Engineering science, where you learn bridge building and biochemistry, before making EE on MSC. Like it is some fairy tale, where the students need relaxation and support.
University is a stress test. You are supposed to just make it though, with minimal effort if possible. If you put too much effort in, you already failed. Because the (engineering) problem is: I dont have a degree, and I need it for my job.

[iaeen]

The grade distribution in my AC Circuits analysis class for our last test and final exam.  I think "bloodbath" about sums it up lol.  Though to be fair this prof did not allow us to use any notes or formula sheets and we are issued calculators by the school for exams so if you were not ready you were in trouble.

Notes formula sheets and calculator...
The US education system is really pathetic.

If this were a math exam, I would agree with you, but I believe engineering exams should be mostly open book. Engineering is about solving very complex real-world problems, and to do that you need reference materials (hundreds of empirically derived formulas, steam tables, spec sheets, characteristic curves, etc...). Professors can (and do) write their exams around this. You barely have enough time to find all the information you need to solve the problem; if you don't already know how to use the information, you're doomed.

[rrinker]

 This applies to the real world as well - my career path took me solidly into computer networking and server configuration despite my EE degree. There are all sorts of certification tests from various systems vendors but so many of them are nothing more than money makers - I refuse to buy in, and it's taken an awfully long time to stop being hassled by my bosses about it. Partly because the vendors will hold it over a partner's head that you need people who have passed these tests on staff - oh and it doesn't matter if one person has passed the tests for say 3 different products, you can only count that person for one of them. These tests are absolutely ridiculous, and no reference materials can be used. This is so utterly ridiculous I don't think it even needs explaining. In the real world, if I am confronted with an error code I don't know off the tp of my head, I look it up. If I'm having trouble recalling the exact syntax of a command I haven't used in months, I look it up. The best part - I've been working in particular with Microsoft Exchange since the beginning, and even Microsoft Mail prior to that. Hundreds upon hundreds of successful installs over the years. I did go and take the one exam, just to make my boss happy. And promptly failed it. Half the test asked questions about product features that we NEVER deployed for any clients, be they 10 person offices or 5000 employees big. Another time, years go, we got an emergency call to go to this new client. They had replaced pretty much the entire IT staff with new people and needed help installing an off the shelf backup program. Upon arrival, I sat down with the new head server admin, who had his cube walls plastered with every certification under the sun. A= in various forms, tons of Microsoft ones, etc. We discussed my background, at that point some 20 years in the industry. After which he says, in a very condescending tone "Oh, you're not an MCSE?" To which I WANTED to reply, no, and you are the prime example why - you have all those certs and you can't figure this out and need us to do it for you. I've run into so many people who have pieces of paper that sya they know this or that, but their actual skill level is that of someone who's never even seen the product before. I have a coworker like that who is at least improving with time - not sure why he even got into computers but most of the time he was used to triage incoming support calls because it was beyond his skill set to solve pretty much nothing. Out asic workstation work dried up completely - computers are so cheap no one seems to bother to fix them any more, they just get a new one. We had a second guy at this same level. They both tried to gain advanced certification, the first guy managed to pass all his tests, the second guy did not and was let go. Despite being certified, the first guy still isn't fully up to speed a year later. He handles some things, but almost always ends up asking one of us more experienced guys dozens of questions. In itself this is not bad, you won't learn anything if you don't ask, but often it's basic troubleshooting - this is where you need experience and not certifications, certification tests can't teach that stuff.

 I like to say that a BS in a technical fieled like EE doesn't really teach you a whole lot of practical knowledge - it teaches you how to learn.

[trophosphere]

I was allowed to bring reference material into most of my EE classes during tests because the questions required you to actually understand the material instead of just doing a memory dump. The formulas I would need to use on a test would actually be a single step out of say the five steps needed to obtain a correct answer. I double majored in EE and biology so the contrast in how to study was very apparent.

To study for EE I would just do lots of problems and challenge myself by changing the values of given variables of a problem to get a new problem. To study for biology I would just memorize by saying stuff out loud and re-writing my notes. Back then, I could literally draw a single glucose molecule and then map out all the intermediate molecules (plus products) as it went through glycolosis and the Krebs cycle without even thinking. Organic chemistry seemed, in my opinion, to require a EE study habit to be successful in because the number of possible molecules from reactions would be near infinite. You just needed to know a couple of rules, practice them on a couple hundred problems, and then you would be fine.

[CatalinaWOW]

There is a lot to complain about in teaching methods, but attacking memorization is an attack on a key tool in every engineers toolbox.  While everything (almost) is a few key clicks away on google, you had to have memorized something to even know which key clicks to make.  And in almost every job there will be benefit from not having to google every step before doing it.  How many of you Google ohms law before calculating the current in a resistor?

Memorization speeds the work you do, and broadens the scope of the options you have available to solve a given problem.  Even if you have to Google to freshen up the details.  So the real argument is how much memorization is practical or optimal.  The answer is clearly not zero.

[b_force]

You have to memorize the basic principles and understand the bigger picture.
People don't learn that from solving endless useless overly weird equations which you'll never ever see in practice.

Like I said before, the focus on most schools and universities is old fashioned.
In the old days people thought it was good just to drill exact things in peoples heads, instead of teaching them how to understand and be creative with it.
You will find a billion very well written scientific articles about the fact that it is very far from true.

Instead of wasting time so people know strictly exact things by heart (which i find really useless), I rather teach them more something about thinking out of the box/working in a practical environment (aka companies, research centers, projects with a strict budget).
All nice and so on if you can do incredible difficult differential equations, if you don't know how to use them in practice it's a waste of energy and talent IMO.

[rrinker]

 It's very possible to craft an exam so that you can USE reference material, but you do have to actually KNOW something in order to correctly answer all of the questions in the time allotted. If you have to look up every little thing - you'll never make it, but if you just need to clarify something for some specific examples, you will be able to finish with accurate answers.

[KE5FX]

The grade distribution in my AC Circuits analysis class for our last test and final exam.  I think "bloodbath" about sums it up lol.  Though to be fair this prof did not allow us to use any notes or formula sheets and we are issued calculators by the school for exams so if you were not ready you were in trouble.

Notes formula sheets and calculator...
The US education system is really pathetic.

Hmph.  What have you guys engineered lately, besides unreasonably-large rabbits?

[basinstreetdesign]

When I was an undergrad there was a story going around about an engineering exam that was to be "open-book".  When pressed about just what was allowed to be taken into the exam room, the prof is supposed to have said "anything you can carry".  So one guy asked a friend of his who was a least two years further along in the course if he would help him.  The guy carried the friend into the exam room on his back.  The prof was stuck so allowed it.   The guy passed the course.

[vodka]

The grade distribution in my AC Circuits analysis class for our last test and final exam.  I think "bloodbath" about sums it up lol.  Though to be fair this prof did not allow us to use any notes or formula sheets and we are issued calculators by the school for exams so if you were not ready you were in trouble.

Bloodbath ? So, i was on  "Paths of Glory" when  i did Theory of circuit 2 , the percentatge of approved was among  1-3% for each exam. And the companions that passed of the exam their note didn't pass more of the 6.

It has to be said, the subject that were registred approximatly 150 students(50% news and 50% the repeaters ).
 

[KE5FX]

When I was an undergrad there was a story going around about an engineering exam that was to be "open-book".  When pressed about just what was allowed to be taken into the exam room, the prof is supposed to have said "anything you can carry".  So one guy asked a friend of his who was a least two years further along in the course if he would help him.  The guy carried the friend into the exam room on his back.  The prof was stuck so allowed it.   The guy passed the course.

Then there was the professor at CalTech who said the test-takers could refer to Feynman...

[Kjelt]

Talking now about the dutch situation, other countries might and probably differ.

You have to memorize the basic principles and understand the bigger picture.
People don't learn that from solving endless useless overly weird equations which you'll never ever see in practice.

Isn't that the difference between University (WO) and College (HBO). In the HBO you get a lot of equations but also the practical applications to use them.
At least this was the case 20 years ago.
University is more abstract and lacks the practical applications, also the teachers differ, on college a lot of the teachers have practical work experience,
on the university a lot of the teachers never left, did a PhD and became a professor, writing a lot of abstract papers with formula's.
A bit black/white but just to proof the point.

Instead of wasting time so people know strictly exact things by heart (which i find really useless), I rather teach them more something about thinking out of the box/working in a practical environment (aka companies, research centers, projects with a strict budget).

I agree partly, yes this is important but without a decent knowledge of the basics, those out of the box thinkers are creating perpetuum mobile, the ones you see here so often in crowd funding madness.
They do not understand the basics and are very creative, even creating products with out of the box thinking that produce energy out of nothing, we do not need those people now do we?

All nice and so on if you can do incredible difficult differential equations, if you don't know how to use them in practice it's a waste of energy and talent IMO.

Yes but if you DO know how to use them in practice and can combine several domains of knowledge to solve a difficult problem it could be a winner.
I have such a colleague, if someone has a statistical or other difficult mathematical problem that needs to be written in code, he can do it in a snap, writing a simulation in his mathematical tools and if it looks like it works we transfer it in C and test it.

I think we need both, people that are creative but with their feet on the ground and good understanding of the principles and abstract people that can combine different sciences to solve real problems.

[b_force]

We do need both! I totally agree with that!
I am just trying to point out that the priorities can be much better.
During my career so far i've just seen it in practice so many times.
For the same reason a lot of start-up companies also fail for the fact that there is only theoretical knowledge. They lost connection with the real world.

As a freelancer I do some consultancy work from time to time. The first thing I do mostly is put people back on the ground again with both feet.
Which means, going back to the basics and essentials. My experience is that a lot of people overthink way to much. First make a simple schematic, drawing or idea (whatever is your personal preference) and think about some basic physics and formulas if it's achievable and/or has potential.

If i think back to those two teachers I was talking about, this is exactly what they ment.
A good engineer/scientist doesn't need a whole army of formulas, fancy jargon and strict definitions.

[senso]

The grade distribution in my AC Circuits analysis class for our last test and final exam.  I think "bloodbath" about sums it up lol.  Though to be fair this prof did not allow us to use any notes or formula sheets and we are issued calculators by the school for exams so if you were not ready you were in trouble.

Notes formula sheets and calculator...
The US education system is really pathetic.

With some luck where I was you would have 2 or 3 formulas at the end of the test that where useless in that test, they where there just to make you waste time if you didn't study.
And the only allowed things where a pen, nothing else, nothing more, if you wrote on pencil it wouldn't be graded, only pen, black or blue..
In one of the so called top 3 universities.
Watching other courses being allowed to take calculators filled to the brim with notes was depressing..

[EncomLab]

For the same reason a lot of start-up companies also fail for the fact that there is only theoretical knowledge. They lost connection with the real world.

I'm thankful to be at a Uni that still has a pretty open policy regarding lab access - if you pass demonstration testing you get a pass card granting access to both the EE and ME labs.  Our ME lab has CNC as well as manual equipment including 2 Bridgeport mills and 3 LeBlond lathes, welding equipment, an injection molding machine, 3D printers and tons (literally) of scrap materials available.  The dynamic among students is great and I learned a great deal by going "hands-on".  To your point about theory - even among middle and high school students a lot of the basics are being replaced by plug and play modules and Arduino/Pi boxes. My nephew thinks he is a cracking engineer because he plugged 3 prebuilt boards together, downloaded per-exisitng code and made a LCD screen display emoji.  He could not begin to explain why or how it works or even identify parts.

[free_electron]

i got a few nice ones

- one where i was off the bellcurve , cause my classmates had stolen the exam paper and made copies. everyone except me had studied the answers and everyone scored 95..98 % ( they had agreed to all make a mistake on 'different questions' ) Everyone gave 'uniform answers' ( they had collectively solved the exam and memorised the answers , so everyone essentially used the same techniques). my answers were completely different and i also was in the 95% ... needless to say eyebrows were seriously raised how come everyone essentially handed in identical answer sheets , except me ...

- one where i got 100% and the rest flunked with a zero. This started out interesting.. i was originally the only one who had flunked, everyone else passed. until i pointed out that you need to set the calculator in radians to do the calculation.. (phase shift on FM modulation) .. and the teacher admitted he had made a mistake when he originally explained the problem. He had done an example in class and in the textbook. During a single question short test we got that exact problem. Everyone came up with the same answer, except me ... mine was right ... i had not read the book  i already knew how to do that, so i didn't bother reading the book with the false procedure.

- graduation work presentation in front of the jury ( three teachers and two people from the industry , one from Philips (now NXP))

Teacher ( who was always picking on me ) : draw input curve of bipolar transistor.  I draw : 4 axes and draw curve  , mark arrows Vbe horizontal and  Ice vertical . Teacher : Incorrect. i look at curve ( i knew he was a nitpicker. he would ding you if an arrow was missing on a curve. or a dot at an intersection. ) nope all was there.

I stare at him and say "looks right to me"
He goes : no it's wrong. on your vertical axis it should say Ic ( collector current). I argue current flows between points, voltage stands between points so i mark from where it comes and where it goes.
He whines back : in this curve there is only collector current.
On which i whine back : there is a leakage current from collector to base as well. (Icb)
To which he bitches back : in your imagination.

then suddenly ... -cough- excuse me ..

We look in the direction of the 'excuse me' . Turns out to be the guy from philips, who is leaning slightly forward, looking at the teacher and states 'the student is right , we have that in our databooks'  ( of course i was right. i HAD those databooks ! That's from where i learned how those curves work in the first place. )

[suicidaleggroll]

After the first year of engineering, our class size was cut in half because so many people failed and immediately switched majors.

Even after graduation, when I went to take the FE exam, I overheard a group of people talking and one person mentioned it was his SEVENTH time to take the test, and he hoped he passed this time.  It made me wonder how he even graduated.

Engineering is not for everyone, but some people don't get the hint until it's way too late.

[obrien]

I'll give you a perfect example... Recently I get a speeding ticket (even though I wasn't speeding) and instead of just paying the fine, I went to court. After presenting my evidence to the judge, he gave me the option of taking a Driver Improvement course and having the ticket dismissed. Great!

So, I found out I could do the course online. Sweet, right? Yeah... You can do the course, but you have to go to a testing location for the final test. So this course was full of these really specific statistics, like the exact number of drunk drivers killed in a specific year. When I say exact, I mean exact, not rounded down, like 1,567 instead of 1500. These were actually questions on the test!

Then there's questions like, "how many feet does it take to stop from 55mph, on asphalt with overinflated tires in the rain." I'm not making this shit up. It was crazy.

10 hours worth of material, with little nuggets like that buried inside.

So, I studied the best I could, tried to memorize as much as I could, and went to take the test...

Apparently The UPS Store does proctored testing for a bunch of companies, including the one I did the Driver Improvement course through, so I drove an hour to the closest location, the guy logs into the system and wanders off. I start the test (which isn't timed), go through and get all the relevant questions out of the way ("What color is a stop sign?", "Who has the right of way at a 4-way intersection?", "What do you do when parking on a hill?", etc.) and completely draw a blank on most of the statistical questions...

Then I realized, nobody is actually watching me. The guy at the counter is dealing with a line of customers and probably doesn't give a shit anyway... So, I pulled out my phone, loaded up the course material and just looked up the answers that way!

The worst part is, some of the questions didn't even have the correct answer (it was multiple choice)! Or either the course material was wrong...

Anyway, I have the hardest time memorizing random data like that. In this case, it was pointless information that doesn't help me as a driver and that I'll never actually use. I don't need to know the exact distance it takes to stop a car (which isn't even accurate as that depends on multiple factors including type of vehicle, type of tire, road conditions and so forth).

Ughhhh... So, so stupid! At least I passed.

I think this is something typically American. When I went studying abroad there, we had to take an online test about alcohol. It used the imperial system, which I don't know. Instead of learning, I just tried clicking randomly until I passed the test.

This burocratic nonsense is such a waste of resources.

It is indeed very American thing. When we moved here I had to pass the test to get a drivers license, even though I have been driving for 10 years in Europe. That is quite normal, but the questions in the test were laughable, wrong by its nature and just expect you to memories some shit which you will never need. But it was easy. The driving test itself was complete joke - just drive around the block.

Even more funny was, that my wife had to take a "safety course" since she was under 25. Well the course could have been taken online, so she did it from home using internet and then, she did not have to take an actual theory test ( just driving). So on end of the day it was harder for me than for her. Funny

[rstofer]

I think this is something typically American. When I went studying abroad there, we had to take an online test about alcohol. It used the imperial system, which I don't know. Instead of learning, I just tried clicking randomly until I passed the test.

This burocratic nonsense is such a waste of resources.

It is indeed very American thing. When we moved here I had to pass the test to get a drivers license, even though I have been driving for 10 years in Europe. That is quite normal, but the questions in the test were laughable, wrong by its nature and just expect you to memories some shit which you will never need. But it was easy. The driving test itself was complete joke - just drive around the block.

Even more funny was, that my wife had to take a "safety course" since she was under 25. Well the course could have been taken online, so she did it from home using internet and then, she did not have to take an actual theory test ( just driving). So on end of the day it was harder for me than for her. Funny
[/quote]

And yet, when I lived in Singapore, all I had to do was show my California Drivers License to get an International Drivers License good in, at least, Singapore and Malaysia.  Fill out a form was all it took.

I got a speeding ticket a couple of years back.  It cost a little over $400 plus I had to take an 8 hour online Driver Training program.  The course took the full 8 hours because it deliberately slowed things down.  Part of the penalty - waste 8 hours on training.  I already knew how to speed - I didn't need retraining.  It's the getting caught thing that needed work.

I'm pretty sure this is going to be an expensive ticket:
http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/11/16/oklahoma-speeder-caught-at-208-mph.html

[obrien]

You got to drive in Singapore? wow I have not seen much people drive around there, it seemed supper expensive. But I have never actually lived there

[b_force]

After the first year of engineering, our class size was cut in half because so many people failed and immediately switched majors.

Even after graduation, when I went to take the FE exam, I overheard a group of people talking and one person mentioned it was his SEVENTH time to take the test, and he hoped he passed this time.  It made me wonder how he even graduated.

Engineering is not for everyone, but some people don't get the hint until it's way too late.

I know a lot of people who are the opposite.
They perfectly graduate in 4 or 6 years, sometimes even cum laude.
But the only thing they can is study well. They are not even close of being half decent engineers or scientists.
Sure they know every definition very well and precise, but if you ask about the context aka seeing the bigger picture they are completely clueless.

Reading all these (interesting) stories, i still make the same conclusion. Schools still teach you memorizing things, not understanding things. Big difference.


Btw, the American system to get a driver licence is the biggest comedy show ever invented. The price for it says it all, 75 bucks out of my head. In Europe you pay easily 2500 euro. Guess where I feel safer (and seen the obvious difference in person)?
Fun litle other fact, roundabouts with traffic light? Really?

[suicidaleggroll]

I know a lot of people who are the opposite.
They perfectly graduate in 4 or 6 years, sometimes even cum laude.
But the only thing they can is study well. They are not even close of being half decent engineers or scientists.
Sure they know every definition very well and precise, but if you ask about the context aka seeing the bigger picture they are completely clueless.

Reading all these (interesting) stories, i still make the same conclusion. Schools still teach you memorizing things, not understanding things. Big difference.

My engineering coursework had very little if any memorization.  That's not how engineering works in the real world, any school that teaches it that way is a waste of time IMO and would result in some pretty useless graduates.

Maybe that's why it took that one guy 7+ tries to pass the FE, all his school taught him to do was memorize.

[vealmike]

I had a professor back before political correctness.  A student would ask a question.  He would stare at them for a minute and then say, You don't belong here.

"Your job is to teach. Respectfully, it appears that you do not belong up there either."

[vodka]

After the first year of engineering, our class size was cut in half because so many people failed and immediately switched majors.

Even after graduation, when I went to take the FE exam, I overheard a group of people talking and one person mentioned it was his SEVENTH time to take the test, and he hoped he passed this time.  It made me wonder how he even graduated.

Engineering is not for everyone, but some people don't get the hint until it's way too late.

I know a lot of people who are the opposite.
They perfectly graduate in 4 or 6 years, sometimes even cum laude.
But the only thing they can is study well. They are not even close of being half decent engineers or scientists.
Sure they know every definition very well and precise, but if you ask about the context aka seeing the bigger picture they are completely clueless.

Reading all these (interesting) stories, i still make the same conclusion. Schools still teach you memorizing things, not understanding things. Big difference.


Btw, the American system to get a driver licence is the biggest comedy show ever invented. The price for it says it all, 75 bucks out of my head. In Europe you pay easily 2500 euro. Guess where I feel safer (and seen the obvious difference in person)?
Fun litle other fact, roundabouts with traffic light? Really?

I believe that you are messed with the terms. The 75 bucks will be the driver right exams , on Spain was 80-90€. I rememeber that on Usa , you can present to driver exam,on the same day( Theorical/Practices) for free(without Auto-school). Now , if you contracts a autoschool is aproximatly 1200€ more expensive(Theorical (400-800€ and the practise car 25-35€/practise).

Now for arriving to spend 2500€ , How many do practices do you ?

 

[free_electron]

That is quite normal, but the questions in the test were laughable, wrong by its nature and just expect you to memories some shit which you will never need. But it was easy. The driving test itself was complete joke - just drive around the block.

i remember my driving exam in North Carolina...

Question : What do you do when the carburetor is flooded... IT IS 2000 ... NOBODY has a carburetor in his car anymore. Bunch of rednecks ...

Practical test : Please perform a 3 point turn...
Me: i can make a u-turn here.
Examinator. no you can't it is too narrow.

I executed 3-point turn , then did a u-turn just to show it could be done.
instructor : you must be from europe. americans don't know what is the turning circle of their car.. or they show up in 'boat anchors' ...

[KE5FX]

I executed 3-point turn , then did a u-turn just to show it could be done.
instructor : you must be from europe. americans don't know how to use their handbrake.

[rrinker]

pffft, on snowy days I used to drive around the block without turning the steering wheel.

And that car was an automatic transmission and no hand brake, it was foot operated and had a separate release handle. WAY too easy with a nice hand brake lever. 

[JustMac]

pffft, on snowy days I used to drive around the block without turning the steering wheel.

And that car was an automatic transmission and no hand brake, it was foot operated and had a separate release handle. WAY too easy with a nice hand brake lever. 

And that was before it was called "drifting".  Somewhat seriously those of us who have had the "privilege" of driving in the snow have baked into our neurons how to handle a car when sliding and have it under control. A lesser form of WRC driving if you may.

While different countries try to educate their new drivers to the task of public driving, with varying degrees of difficulty, the reports I've read is that after few years "people" all tend forget the better stuff they were taught and gravitate towards the US mean of ... crap driving. 

No doubt the US will fix "our" problem via autonomous cars and finally outlaw actual drivers.

WRT engineering degrees and education ... the economy has changed so much since my graduation that it's hard to say what's right and not. Certainly rote memorization is out but then again there's something to be said for being able to add 582 + 128 in your head w/o a "calculator" in a moments time. Given the specialization in any engineering field these days, learning to be a good control systems engineer won't get you a job designing ASICs.

[suicidaleggroll]

And that was before it was called "drifting".  Somewhat seriously those of us who have had the "privilege" of driving in the snow have baked into our neurons how to handle a car when sliding and have it under control. A lesser form of WRC driving if you may.

On that note, the last few days in Boulder, CO have been pretty fun!  Rush hour not so much, but once everyone goes home and the roads open up it's a blast.

[tszaboo]

Btw, the American system to get a driver licence is the biggest comedy show ever invented. The price for it says it all, 75 bucks out of my head. In Europe you pay easily 2500 euro. Guess where I feel safer (and seen the obvious difference in person)?
Fun litle other fact, roundabouts with traffic light? Really?

Yes, and if you speak french, you fail at the test, if you use the turning signal for turning, instead of the horn. Also, they teach you how to park, by crashing into every car around you.

[rrinker]

 When I took my driver's license test - I did so in a station wagon, it was our only car. I could have easily done the 3 point turn with just one 'point' (only a very small car could possible U-turn in the space - it's not on the public street, it's a specially designed course), but they fail you if you don't do an exact 3 point turn. The REAL trick is at the end, as you are leaving the course. The instructor, a state police officer, will point to the right and say "park over there." Well, there is a stop sign at the exit to the course! Probably half the people that fail do so because they just follow the direction and drive right over to the parking area.

[b_force]

After the first year of engineering, our class size was cut in half because so many people failed and immediately switched majors.

Even after graduation, when I went to take the FE exam, I overheard a group of people talking and one person mentioned it was his SEVENTH time to take the test, and he hoped he passed this time.  It made me wonder how he even graduated.

Engineering is not for everyone, but some people don't get the hint until it's way too late.

I know a lot of people who are the opposite.
They perfectly graduate in 4 or 6 years, sometimes even cum laude.
But the only thing they can is study well. They are not even close of being half decent engineers or scientists.
Sure they know every definition very well and precise, but if you ask about the context aka seeing the bigger picture they are completely clueless.

Reading all these (interesting) stories, i still make the same conclusion. Schools still teach you memorizing things, not understanding things. Big difference.


Btw, the American system to get a driver licence is the biggest comedy show ever invented. The price for it says it all, 75 bucks out of my head. In Europe you pay easily 2500 euro. Guess where I feel safer (and seen the obvious difference in person)?
Fun litle other fact, roundabouts with traffic light? Really?

I believe that you are messed with the terms. The 75 bucks will be the driver right exams , on Spain was 80-90€. I rememeber that on Usa , you can present to driver exam,on the same day( Theorical/Practices) for free(without Auto-school). Now , if you contracts a autoschool is aproximatly 1200€ more expensive(Theorical (400-800€ and the practise car 25-35€/practise).

Now for arriving to spend 2500€ , How many do practices do you ?

Nowadays an average amount of (mandatory) lessons is about roughly 30-40, plus your theoretical exam and a one hour final practical exam, which is driving in real traffic in the city and the high way.
You're not really being tested if you can make only a 3 point turn, but more how you drive and anticipate with other traffic.
Also things like parallel parking, driving/turning backwards, driving away from an hill (we only have manual gearboxes) are standard parts of the final exam.
So as long as you drive safe, a little mistake in parallel parking won't let you fail.
Creating a dangerous situation certainly or obviously showing insecureness in general, will.

[free_electron]

i remember my driving exam in North Carolina...

Question : What do you do when the carburetor is flooded... IT IS 2000 ... NOBODY has a carburetor in his car anymore. Bunch of rednecks ...

When I took NC driver's license test, the theoretical test is done on a computer and the questions are all about road rules.

mine was done on computer as well. here is an interesting tidbit :

the machine picks a set of questions. you need to score a certain percentage. i don't remember the exact numbers but it is something like this :
you need 50 correct answers. you can only have 5 wrong. the machine picks a set of 100.
so .. if you do not know the answer : DO NOT GUESS !. simply skip the question. you have 'spare' questions. chances are you do know the answers to those. so you can actually 'game' the system a bit.