Author Topic: Square Brackets in American English  (Read 17289 times)

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Offline MarvinTheMartian

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2016, 08:23:58 am »
(I often wonder if some people ever proofread what they've typed before hitting 'post'. :-// )
I only did that once or twice when I first started posting - then there was the doh!  :palm: moment and now I preview every time to correct silly errors or to add something I just thought of after I previewed it.

Quote from: Wilfred
Perhaps this video will shed further light...
Very illuminating (and funny).  :-DD
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2016, 09:45:40 am »
I've always considered American English as "lazy". Not saying American's are lazy but their language and spelling is very phonetic. AU/UK English can be confusing at first, but once the rules are known, it actually makes sense... most of the time. I also happen to speak Finnish and English is a hell of a lot harder ;-)

Although I beg to ask, why the hell don't Americans adopt the metric system?!? It makes so much more mathematical sense.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 09:47:37 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline elgonzo

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2016, 10:03:13 am »
[...]Although I beg to ask, why the hell don't Americans adopt the metric system?!? It makes so much more mathematical sense.
And while we are at it, lets switch to a decimal timekeeping system. The current mish-mash of a sexagesimal and duodecimal system is bonkers. Vive la révolution! ;)
(See, i managed to use some square brackets while completely ignoring the topic of this thread.)
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 10:11:31 am by elgonzo »
 

Offline mathsquid

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2016, 11:38:23 am »
And while we are at it, lets switch to a decimal timekeeping system. The current mish-mash of a sexagesimal and duodecimal system is bonkers. Vive la révolution! ;)

Here are some clocks you can use.  I took these pics a few years ago at the Musée des Arts et Métiers in Paris, which is the coolest museum I've ever been to.  Most people on this forum would probably really enjoy it.  They have lots of computing history there, including Napier's bones, pascal's mechanical computing devices, many vintage computers from the 1970s and 1980s (including the only Apple Lisa that I've ever seen), and a Cray that they won't let you sit on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musée_des_Arts_et_Métiers
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2016, 12:54:21 pm »
(Background: I'm an American living in Switzerland, and studied linguistics alongside IT at university.)

I agree, English 'adopts' words from lots of languages. This can make things more confusing for non-English speakers because the meanings may also have changed, and as you say, it is also a dynamic not a static system.
Every language borrows from other languages. For example, look at how upset the French and German speaking worlds are that English words keep infiltrating their vocabulary! What's weird about it is that is that they blame us English speakers for it, even though they're the ones voluntarily using our words! We didn't ask, never mind force, them to use them! :P

I suppose everybody thinks that the 'version' of English they were taught is the 'true' one and measure everybody else against this 'truth'!  |O

It used to bother me that Americans had corrupted the English language but as I get older, I can appreciate the logic of many of the changes they have made (still rubs me the wrong way though ::)).
With regards to spoken language, which drives language change vastly more than written language:

The problem is that everyone assumes their dialect/accent is the one that remained true, while the others became corrupted. But in fact, any time a language divides (whether through geographical or social separation), every branch keeps evolving away from the common ancestor. No descendant is any more "correct" than the other, because the original common ancestral form is always lost (except in artificially maintained dialects, like liturgical language). So when American English branched off (which is actually hard to pinpoint, since there were centuries of ongoing immigration from different parts of the British isles, each wave bringing a different dialect from a different point in its own evolution), it evolved away from the original British — but so did British English! In fact, among scholars of English linguistics, it's widely accepted that as of now, American English has actually retained more historical forms than British English!

Another thing to bear in mind is that a lot of modern American pronunciation — such as the heavy rhotic "r" sound — is borrowed directly from Irish English, particularly Dubliner, thanks to the huge numbers of Irish immigrants in the 19th century. To this day, many Irishmen sound extremely similar to Americans. (To the point that they are often assumed to be American when outside Ireland, according to such an Irish friend of mine.)

I've always considered American English as "lazy". Not saying American's are lazy but their language and spelling is very phonetic. AU/UK English can be confusing at first, but once the rules are known, it actually makes sense... most of the time. I also happen to speak Finnish and English is a hell of a lot harder ;-)
But it's not lazy. English spelling and pronunciation were both in flux when they split apart, and that flux has never stopped.

But again, it's often American English that retains the historical form. For example, the British often accuse Americans of being lazy for not pronouncing differently the "a" in "can"("can") and "can't" (Am: "can", Br. "cahnt"). But in fact, British English originally used the same "a" in both, and only began distinguishing the vowel long after American English separated from it.

One final thing about spoken language: One thing that bugs me, as a linguist, is that people compare their country's "best" English (like RP in England) to another country's most distinctive dialects (like hillbilly American English, or Appalachian vernacular, as linguists call it, or urban black English, African American Vernacular English to scholars). You rarely hear the English comparing their strong regional dialects to standard American. (Perhaps because there's a huge cultural asymmetry: the British openly look down on Americans, whereas Americans consider anything British to be noble and upscale.) In linguistics, it being a science, we seek to describe and study language as it is used, not to pass judgement or prescribe how it should be used. But that viewpoint is, of course, irrelevant in the real world.

As for spelling, English orthography was completely unstandardized on both sides of the Atlantic until comparatively recently. Remember, the British began colonizing North America not long after William Shakespeare's death. Shakespearean spelling is no closer to modern British than it is to American, and far more different than modern British and American spellings are from each other!!

A major reason why English spelling is unusually complex is that English rarely re-spells words when the pronunciation changes. English has had several major "vowel shifts" (with many regional accents emerging precisely because they didn't adopt particular shifts, or had minor ones of their own) where pronunciation changed across the board, along with many slow changes in consonant pronunciation. Any time a new word was coined (regardless of how), its spelling reflected the pronunciation of the time when it was coined, but then it remains more or less etched in stone. And that's how we end up with the same vowel having 5 different pronunciations or more! (In contrast, many languages have official standards bodies which routinely update the official spellings and grammar.)

What I will absolutely grant you, and I say this as a well educated American with years of professional writing experience, is that Americans are getting far inferior language education in school. Combined with Americans' overall distrust of expertise (they confuse it with aristocracy!), and aspiration to mediocrity, it's resulted in a population that rarely uses English in a masterful way. :(

Although I beg to ask, why the hell don't Americans adopt the metric system?!? It makes so much more mathematical sense.
In many areas, we have. Soda comes in 2 liter bottles (food products have been labeled in both imperial and metric for decades, and nominal package sizes have been little by little switching to metric). Photographic and movie film is measured in millimeters. The American auto industry is mostly finished switching to metric. Pharmaceuticals have been metric for ages. Science is nearly exclusively conducted in metric.

Where the US has remained stubborn in everyday use is in distances (the 1970s effort to switch highway signage to metric was aborted after just a few years, though our speedometers retain both miles and km scales), temperatures (I have to say I appreciate the somewhat higher resolution of Fahrenheit, when it comes to everyday things like weather or body temperature, where having 80% more degrees in the same number of digits is handy. The 32? zero offset is maddening, though!), weights, and to a lesser extent volume.

And of course, I always love to point out to people — often to resulting indignation — that there's no country in the world that is 100% metric, either! For example, small pipe fittings (like shower and hose connections) around the world are nearly universally in inches. Automobile tire ("tyre" for some :P) sizes are a bizarre mix of both imperial and metric (210/75R15, for example, means the tread is 210mm wide, the sidewall is 75% of 210mm, so 157.5mm, on a 15 inch rim). We're all familiar with 0.1" lead spacing on DIPs, even if that's going away little by little. And whenever we buy a printer, its resolution is nominally specified and engineered in DPI (dots per inch)*. Similarly, display and TV sizes are always advertised in inches, other than jurisdictions that have outlawed that (but the nominal "size class" is still always defined in inches, as evidenced in the model numbers.)

*Indeed, one of the few devices I've ever seen with a nominally metric resolution is Wacom graphics tablets, which are clearly nominally engineered in lines per mm. For example, their current top models are advertised as 5080 lines per inch, which is precisely 2000 lines per mm. The other is some imagesetters for making offset lithography plates.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 12:59:23 pm by tooki »
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2016, 02:28:12 pm »
(Background: I'm an American living in Switzerland, and studied linguistics alongside IT at university.)

I agree, English 'adopts' words from lots of languages. This can make things more confusing for non-English speakers because the meanings may also have changed, and as you say, it is also a dynamic not a static system.
Every language borrows from other languages. For example, look at how upset the French and German speaking worlds are that English words keep infiltrating their vocabulary! What's weird about it is that is that they blame us English speakers for it, even though they're the ones voluntarily using our words! We didn't ask, never mind force, them to use them! :P

I suppose everybody thinks that the 'version' of English they were taught is the 'true' one and measure everybody else against this 'truth'!  |O

It used to bother me that Americans had corrupted the English language but as I get older, I can appreciate the logic of many of the changes they have made (still rubs me the wrong way though ::)).
With regards to spoken language, which drives language change vastly more than written language:

The problem is that everyone assumes their dialect/accent is the one that remained true, while the others became corrupted. But in fact, any time a language divides (whether through geographical or social separation), every branch keeps evolving away from the common ancestor. No descendant is any more "correct" than the other, because the original common ancestral form is always lost (except in artificially maintained dialects, like liturgical language). So when American English branched off (which is actually hard to pinpoint, since there were centuries of ongoing immigration from different parts of the British isles, each wave bringing a different dialect from a different point in its own evolution), it evolved away from the original British — but so did British English! In fact, among scholars of English linguistics, it's widely accepted that as of now, American English has actually retained more historical forms than British English!

Another thing to bear in mind is that a lot of modern American pronunciation — such as the heavy rhotic "r" sound — is borrowed directly from Irish English, particularly Dubliner, thanks to the huge numbers of Irish immigrants in the 19th century. To this day, many Irishmen sound extremely similar to Americans. (To the point that they are often assumed to be American when outside Ireland, according to such an Irish friend of mine.)

I've always considered American English as "lazy". Not saying American's are lazy but their language and spelling is very phonetic. AU/UK English can be confusing at first, but once the rules are known, it actually makes sense... most of the time.

An interesting thing is that in Western Australia,the word "derby" is pronounced similarly to the American way,whereas in the rest of the country it is "darby".

We also pronounce Albany,with the same "al" sound as in "pal".
"Easterners"  saying "Orlbany" freak West Oz folks out!

Quote
Quote
I also happen to speak Finnish and English is a hell of a lot harder ;-)
But it's not lazy. English spelling
and pronunciation were both in flux when they split apart, and that flux has never stopped.

But again, it's often American English that retains the historical form. For example, the British often accuse Americans of being lazy for not pronouncing differently the "a" in "can"("can") and "can't" (Am: "can", Br. "cahnt"). But in fact, British English originally used the same "a" in both, and only began distinguishing the vowel long after American English separated from it.

One final thing about spoken language: One thing that bugs me, as a linguist, is that people compare their country's "best" English (like RP in England) to another country's most distinctive dialects (like hillbilly American English, or Appalachian vernacular, as linguists call it, or urban black English, African American Vernacular English to scholars). You rarely hear the English comparing their strong regional dialects to standard American. (Perhaps because there's a huge cultural asymmetry: the British openly look down on Americans, whereas Americans consider anything British to be noble and upscale.)
In Australia,this is known as the "cultural cringe".
Quote
In linguistics, it being a science, we seek to describe and study language as it is used, not to pass judgement or prescribe how it should be used. But that viewpoint is, of course, irrelevant in the real world.

As for spelling, English orthography was completely unstandardized on both sides of the Atlantic until comparatively recently. Remember, the British began colonizing North America not long after William Shakespeare's death. Shakespearean spelling is no closer to modern British than it is to American, and far more different than modern British and American spellings are from each other!!

A major reason why English spelling is unusually complex is that English rarely re-spells words when the pronunciation changes. English has had several major "vowel shifts" (with many regional accents emerging precisely because they didn't adopt particular shifts, or had minor ones of their own) where pronunciation changed across the board, along with many slow changes in consonant pronunciation. Any time a new word was coined (regardless of how), its spelling reflected the pronunciation of the time when it was coined, but then it remains more or less etched in stone. And that's how we end up with the same vowel having 5 different pronunciations or more! (In contrast, many languages have official standards bodies which routinely update the official spellings and grammar.)

What I will absolutely grant you, and I say this as a well educated American with years of professional writing experience, is that Americans are getting far inferior language education in school. Combined with Americans' overall distrust of expertise (they confuse it with aristocracy!), and aspiration to mediocrity, it's resulted in a population that rarely uses English in a masterful way. :(

Although I beg to ask, why the hell don't Americans adopt the metric system?!? It makes so much more mathematical sense.
In many areas, we have. Soda comes in 2 liter bottles (food products have been labeled in both imperial and metric for decades, and nominal package sizes have been little by little switching to metric). Photographic and movie film is measured in millimeters. The American auto industry is mostly finished switching to metric. Pharmaceuticals have been metric for ages. Science is nearly exclusively conducted in metric.

Where the US has remained stubborn in everyday use is in distances (the 1970s effort to switch highway signage to metric was aborted after just a few years, though our speedometers retain both miles and km scales), temperatures (I have to say I appreciate the somewhat higher resolution of Fahrenheit, when it comes to everyday things like weather or body temperature, where having 80% more degrees in the same number of digits is handy. The 32? zero offset is maddening, though!), weights, and to a lesser extent volume.

And of course, I always love to point out to people — often to resulting indignation — that there's no country in the world that is 100% metric, either! For example, small pipe fittings (like shower and hose connections) around the world are nearly universally in inches.
Actually in Australia,pipe fittings are all sold in metric---more or less,as 13mm pipe fittings are really perfect matches for the old 1/2" pipe.
Quote

 Automobile tire ("tyre" for some :P) sizes are a bizarre mix of both imperial and metric (210/75R15, for example, means the tread is 210mm wide, the sidewall is 75% of 210mm, so 157.5mm, on a 15 inch rim). We're all familiar with 0.1" lead spacing on DIPs, even if that's going away little by little. And whenever we buy a printer, its resolution is nominally specified and engineered in DPI (dots per inch)*. Similarly, display and TV sizes are always advertised in inches, other than jurisdictions that have outlawed that (but the nominal "size class" is still always defined in inches, as evidenced in the model numbers.)

*Indeed, one of the few devices I've ever seen with a nominally metric resolution is Wacom graphics tablets, which are clearly nominally engineered in lines per mm. For example, their current top models are advertised as 5080 lines per inch, which is precisely 2000 lines per mm. The other is some imagesetters for making offset lithography plates.

There has been a sort of "re-Imperialisation by stealth" in Oz of late,as you can buy beer in "pints",& the hardware stores usually have a better range of "whitworth" bolts than metric ones---this latter is mainly due to the enormous output of cheap Imperial bolts from India.
 

Offline MarvinTheMartian

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2016, 10:07:40 pm »
(Background: I'm an American living in Switzerland, and studied linguistics alongside IT at university.)
Wow!

Thanks Tooki for that very comprehensive and enlightening response.   :-+

Very well thought out too, it explains a lot in a very clear fashion.  :popcorn:

I'm more enlightened as a result.  :-+

Australians sound pretty much the same across the land, unlike some other countries (eg UK, USA).

Except for those 'we're different from the rest of Oz' weirdos in Western Oz - eh vk6zgo?  :-DD     (only kidding  ;))
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2016, 02:13:52 am »
(Background: I'm an American living in Switzerland, and studied linguistics alongside IT at university.)
Wow!

Thanks Tooki for that very comprehensive and enlightening response.   :-+

Very well thought out too, it explains a lot in a very clear fashion.  :popcorn:

I'm more enlightened as a result.  :-+

Australians sound pretty much the same across the land, unlike some other countries (eg UK, USA).

Except for those 'we're different from the rest of Oz' weirdos in Western Oz - eh vk6zgo?  :-DD     (only kidding  ;))

And people from outback NSW----- who-----take-----twenty-----minutes----- to-----say----G-o-o-d-a-y--!--- ;D
 

Offline Bob F.

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2016, 02:17:36 pm »
WFIW, same usage in British English too.

WFIW[sic], same usage in British English too.

lol.
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Offline Tomorokoshi

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2016, 05:06:33 pm »
If one were discussing some options:

"Apple will do well here."

Hmm... what am I talking about?
"Apple [computer] will do well here [for some application]."

"Apple [fruit] will do well here [in this recipe]."

Now let's say we need to be more specific:
"Apple [Macintosh Pro] will do well here [for this application]."

"Apple [Macintosh] will do well here [for this particular pie recipe]."

Perhaps there are other computer options:
"Apple [Macintosh Pro] will do well here [for this graphics application]."

"Apple [][] will do well here [for this retro application]."

Even more specific:
"Apple [][] will do well here [for this retro application]."

"Apple [][ +] will do well here [for this retro application]."
 

Offline Tomorokoshi

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2016, 05:20:34 pm »
Every language borrows from other languages. For example, look at how upset the French and German speaking worlds are that English words keep infiltrating their vocabulary! What's weird about it is that is that they blame us English speakers for it, even though they're the ones voluntarily using our words! We didn't ask, never mind force, them to use them! :P
Japanese solves this problem in an elegant way: foreign (loan words) are often written in a phonetic-only script that is roughly similar to capital letters. This makes them immediately identifiable, and easily kept out of things that are expected to be written in "pure" Japanese, which itself is a combination of the old "Yamato" language and imported court Chinese from a long time ago. Even with that it's easy to distinguish between the Chinese source and the old Japanese source.

In everyday language one can get a collection of words within a single sentence that are:
1. Originally Chinese and written in kanji
2. Originally Japanese and written in kanji
3. Originally Japanese and written in hiragana (curvy) phonetics
4. Originally Japanese and written in katakana (squarish) phonetics
5. Originally foreign (English, etc.) and written in hiragana (curvy) phonetics
6. Originally foreign (English, etc.) and written in katakana (squarish) phonetics
7. Originally foreign (English, etc.) and written in roma-ji (English letters) as phonetics
8. Originally foreign (English, etc.) and written in English, etc. letters as the word itself
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2016, 05:25:57 pm »
On number 6, my Japanese colleague told me that that form is used for "foreign words and animal sounds".
Technically, "roma-ji" are Latin-alphabet letters.  Since no one would specify "English pronunciation" of vowels, the standard I learned was to pronounce vowels as in Italian (close to Latin).
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 05:27:28 pm by TimFox »
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2016, 05:52:59 pm »
Also [sic] when quoting someone verbatim. Usually used for ridicule  :-DD

Strictly its used for a literal quote, not a verbatim one. Literal being the same letters, verbatim the same words. The sic stands for sic erat scriptum - roughly "that's how they wrote it". It's most commonly used to indicate that what looks like an error is in fact an accurate quotation, that is, you have not editted the original for spelling or grammar. e.g. John wrote "He's to [sic] tall".

So although some reader's minds might infer ridicule it's not meant to imply ridicule.
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2016, 06:11:20 pm »
When posting about the spelling or grammar of others, one should always check one's own seven times before hitting "post".
... but irritating non-the-less!

That should be "none-the-less".  ;)

No doubt, the second I hit "post" on this there will be the resounding "BOOM!" of me shooting myself in the foot!
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2016, 06:38:53 pm »
I agree, English 'adopts' words from lots of languages.

We have not, we have pillaged. To say otherwise is to suggest that an Englishman would adopt a foreign, possibly even a French, word. Adopt! Take to his bosom and treat as his own something French!?!? He would not. He, however, might well plunder France for it's riches.

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Offline IanB

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2016, 07:01:50 pm »
No doubt, the second I hit "post" on this there will be the resounding "BOOM!" of me shooting myself in the foot!

He, however, might well plunder France for it's riches.

Yes, this is indeed a minefield!  ;D

(Actually, one might better say, "plunder France for her riches.")
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 07:03:23 pm by IanB »
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2016, 07:14:19 pm »
I agree, English 'adopts' words from lots of languages.

We have not, we have pillaged. To say otherwise is to suggest that an Englishman would adopt a foreign, possibly even a French, word. Adopt! Take to his bosom and treat as his own something French!?!? He would not. He, however, might well plunder France for it's riches.

"plunder France for it's [sic] riches"  -- should be "its".  "It's" is a contraction for "it is" .
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2016, 07:22:16 pm »
No doubt, the second I hit "post" on this there will be the resounding "BOOM!" of me shooting myself in the foot!

He, however, might well plunder France for it's riches.

Yes, this is indeed a minefield!  ;D

(Actually, one might better say, "plunder France for her riches.")

I think I'm fairly safe, I didn't screw up when I was writing about grammar, just when I was writing for comedic effect.

Treating France as feminine seems wrong to me in two ways. Firstly one would be giving in to the strange French notion that everyday nouns have gender. La belle France indeed! Ha! Secondly, and more seriously, I tend to think of France as masculine - they did give us Chauvinism  as a word after all.
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2016, 07:24:44 pm »
I agree, English 'adopts' words from lots of languages.

We have not, we have pillaged. To say otherwise is to suggest that an Englishman would adopt a foreign, possibly even a French, word. Adopt! Take to his bosom and treat as his own something French!?!? He would not. He, however, might well plunder France for it's riches.


"plunder France for it's [sic] riches"  -- should be "its".  "It's" is a contraction for "it is" .

Too slow Tim, too slow. Ian beat you by at least 10 minutes.
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2016, 08:14:53 pm »
Ian said something different.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2016, 08:39:38 pm »
Ian said something different.

Look again. There's a little red highlight in his quote block.
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Offline MarvinTheMartian

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2016, 10:32:06 pm »
... but irritating non-the-less!

That should be "none-the-less".  ;)

Doh!  :palm:

Missed that one (and I do proofread them before I post!  |O).
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2016, 10:36:14 pm »
... but irritating non-the-less!

That should be "none-the-less".  ;)

Doh!  :palm:

Missed that one (and I do proofread them before I post!  |O).

Murphy will always get you in the end.
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Offline MarvinTheMartian

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Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2016, 10:39:17 pm »
Murphy will always get you in the end.

Yeah, I HATE that guy!  ;) ;)
Reviving my old hobby after retiring! Know so little...only one thing to do...watch Dave's videos and keep reading the forum! ;-)
 

Offline vk6zgo

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  • Country: au
Re: Square Brackets in American English
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2016, 01:10:22 am »
The one that repeatedly pops up is "noone" for "no one".
I always think they are talking about this bloke:-

http://www.allmusic.com/artist/peter-noone-mn0000263225

Of course,it is obvious where the confusion comes in-----we do say "nowhere" & "nobody",after all! ;D
 


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