Tear down of a javelin missle guide computer

[ElectronSurf]

How did he got access to one!?

[MT]

Well known Ukraine military personnel and others reselling whatever, even tanks.

Russian drones full of western electronics, geee!  

[tszaboo]

How did he got access to one!?

These have a 93% hit rate, which is impressive. It also means that 7% of them don't hit or they might be a dud. Or captured by the z, and then sold for vodka.

[tiggerlator]

Can certainly see why they cost so much to make.

[EPAIII]

How did he GET access to one?

Well, military weapons are designed to be shot toward the enemy. So, if you are going to use them as intended, you must expect that the enemy, as well as anyone who happens to come along, will pick up any that are not destroyed in that process.

I would be very surprised if the Russians did not have special squads roaming the battlefields grabbing whatever they can find. And likewise for the Ukrainians and even some US personnel. Heck, Ukrainian farmers are hauling Russian tanks behind their tractors, probably to turn them over to their army.

How did he got access to one!?

[Smokey]

I love that there are some form of DSUBs in there.  So much for not being good for "high vibration environments"

[BrianHG]

Well known Ukraine military personnel and others reselling whatever, even tanks.

Russian drones full of western electronics, geee!  

Sadly today, thanks to Huawei's new phone, even though their CPU/GPU is a few years behind, their China made silicon is already fast enough to perform the functions needed as a guidance computer for any drone.  Only the high speed far-IR camera's CCD would be the most difficult tech to come across.  Everything else can already be locally made in China. b Capabilities will only grow going forward.

[Psi]

Well, military weapons are designed to be shot toward the enemy. So, if you are going to use them as intended, you must expect that the enemy, as well as anyone who happens to come along, will pick up any that are not destroyed in that process.

I would be very surprised if the Russians did not have special squads roaming the battlefields grabbing whatever they can find. And likewise for the Ukrainians and even some US personnel. Heck, Ukrainian farmers are hauling Russian tanks behind their tractors, probably to turn them over to their army.

i'm kinda surprised they don't have a built in method to self destruct and destroy most of the internals if they fail to hit/detonate.
I guess they can't use the main charge for this purpose since, if it's a dud and off-course, an explosion that big might kill people that were not the target.
So it would require a smaller charge to just destory the internals without also setting off the main charge.  Probably quite complicated to get right and adds lot of weight.  You'd think it could automatically burnt-out most of the chips though, just using the battery,  to make sure it cant be repurposed.

[shapirus]

Well known Ukraine military personnel and others reselling whatever, even tanks.

Strong claims require strong evidence.

[fourtytwo42]

i'm kinda surprised they don't have a built in method to self destruct and destroy most of the internals if they fail to hit/detonate.
I guess they can't use the main charge for this purpose since, if it's a dud and off-course, an explosion that big might kill people that were not the target.
So it would require a smaller charge to just destory the internals without also setting off the main charge.  Probably quite complicated to get right and adds lot of weight.  You'd think it could automatically burnt-out most of the chips though, just using the battery,  to make sure it cant be repurposed.

I remember reading centemetric radar (HS2) was so secret in WWII that it carried self destruct charges BUT the anode block of the magnetron (solid copper) that was the essence of the secret was so hard to destroy the size of the charges would have endangered the bombers crew.

[jfiresto]

I would be very surprised if the Russians did not have special squads roaming the battlefields grabbing whatever they can find. And likewise for the Ukrainians and even some US personnel. Heck, Ukrainian farmers are hauling Russian tanks behind their tractors, probably to turn them over to their army....

That would not surprise me, but between the age of the design and the U.S. military's poor inventory control, anyone who needs them has probably already collected and parameterized enough good examples. A quick search for javelin missile "stolen" gave a Ukranian market price of $30K/unit.

[shapirus]

A quick search for javelin missile "stolen"...

...gives links to trash media citing "exclusive documents" and "our sources".

Don't consume garbage. Learn info-hygiene. https://researchguides.ben.edu/source-evaluation

[CatalinaWOW]

The interesting thing is that someone so clueless has access to one. To me that means that the big boys who can really meaningfully extract information from such hardware already have their fill.

[shapirus]

The interesting thing is that someone so clueless has access to one. To me that means that the big boys who can really meaningfully extract information from such hardware already have their fill.

That's obvious. As soon as you send a projectile of any kind towards the enemy, it ceases to be secret, and, as soon as it fails to explode (and sometimes even if it doesn't), its internals cease to be secret as well.

...besides, a number of these, probably a significant one, has been captured in battles. One can only guess where they go after that.

[tszaboo]

The interesting thing is that someone so clueless has access to one. To me that means that the big boys who can really meaningfully extract information from such hardware already have their fill.

That's obvious. As soon as you send a projectile of any kind towards the enemy, it ceases to be secret, and, as soon as it fails to explode (and sometimes even if it doesn't), its internals cease to be secret as well.

...besides, a number of these, probably a significant one, has been captured in battles. One can only guess where they go after that.

Even if the orks reverse engineer it, it's not like they can build anything like it. Their peak technological advancement is cope cages.
I hope you guys can get rid of them sooner rather than later.

[u666sa]

How did he got access to one!?

They sell anything west sends them.

A lot of these things were captured, they did serve some, but then got deemed unsafe due to expiration dates. They do love to fail on launch. Both these, and stinger missiles. Apparently they have expiration date and past this date they are not guaranteed to work.

[shapirus]

Even if the orks reverse engineer it, it's not like they can build anything like it. Their peak technological advancement is cope cages.

This is wishful thinking. Besides, they have technologically advanced allies that don't fear any "escalation" and provide them with whatever technology and ammunition they need.

I hope you guys can get rid of them sooner rather than later.

Easier said than done.

[jfiresto]

A quick search for javelin missile "stolen"...

...gives links to trash media citing "exclusive documents" and "our sources".

Don't consume garbage. Learn info-hygiene. https://researchguides.ben.edu/source-evaluation

Thank you for the suggestions. I think as undergraduates we were well trained in conducting research, but I could be wrong.

[u666sa]

Even if the orks reverse engineer it

Woooo. 
In post above, these missiles have expiration date. No the electronics. Chemical charges. Vast majority fail to launch. They do pose threat, but minor. Drones these days post a much higher threat. That's numero uno!

Number 2) there is no need to reverse engineer this old stuff. Russia has much better systems which have destroyed both Leopards and Challengers. So much so that you don't see those tanks on battle field, they keep them back, because sending them forward means only only one thing. Now the hunt is for Abrams, again, not a single Abrams was seen at the front line, they keeping them waaaay back!

Come on bro, it's over and done for, pretty much. Keep it nice. We here are from different places, some are from Australia, some are from Europe others are from Russia, yet others are from Ukraine. Keep the chat about electronics side of things without politics. Put your feelings aside, so to speak. Because one day this thing will be over. Moreover, there are plenty of places where you can talk about this thing, letting your wild side and your feelings loose... But, there are very few places where you can talk about electronics side of things, like the tear down of a missile guidance system for example. So let's keep it nice. No need to call people names. We are not orks. We are Russians, and that's my friend more than 100 nationalities living peacefully together, fighting side by side with common enemy. Something to admire.

Anyway, electronics do seem to be advance, but in practice these missiles had little effect. Major part to it is realiability of these missiles. This system can not be effective if you have high failure rate (again, probably due to expiration date). 

[jfiresto]

I understand another issue is that people are (were?) not getting enough time to learn the system which further lowers its success rate.

[CatalinaWOW]

Before I retired I worked in this industry.  One of the things I took from that experience is that these systems work amazingly well.  Fanboys of the various players in these games have many claims about whose work best, but the worst estimates by the opponents give terrible odds for survival if you are in something worth shooting at.  Don't let your children grow up to drive tanks or airplanes.

[tszaboo]

I understand another issue is that people are (were?) not getting enough time to learn the system which further lowers its success rate.

Early report, it has 93% hit rate, catapulting the T72 tower into low earth orbit. USA sent anywhere around 8000 of these, so you do the math.

Woooo.

I'll let someone else reply to this rambling.

[jfiresto]

Early report, it has 93% hit rate, catapulting the T72 tower into low earth orbit. USA sent anywhere around 8000 of these, so you do the math.

I tried to drill down to the original report but it is blocked for the EU.

As to insufficient training, from the Raytheon Missiles & Defense brochure, a feature of the Javelin is its need for: "Minimal training and certification requirements - only 72 hours of classroom training." Now should that have the usual meaning of 72 hours (9 full days) in the classroom or 3 days of class over 72 hours?

Either is what I believe a lawyer would call "an admission against interest" if you are thinking of the old joke about the difference between sales and marketing.

[u666sa]

Early report, it has 93% hit rate, catapulting the T72 tower into low earth orbit.

This is the result of your average hit.

Analysis of this weapon -- https://topwar.ru/195237-jeffektivnost-ptrk-fgm-148-javelin.html
"During its operation, the FGM-148 Javelin ATGM performed generally well. In some situations it fully realized its potential and even went beyond its original functions, while in others the results of its application left much to be desired. An analysis of the situation shows that the effectiveness of this ATGM depends not only on technical features and characteristics, but also on a number of other factors - from operator training to target design."

"In general, despite all the limitations and problems, Javelin remains a modern and quite effective anti-tank missile system. Don't underestimate him or ignore the threat he poses. At the same time, placing unnecessary hopes on the complex and making it an object of worship is also not worth it. However, the Ukrainian approach with a “cult” and insufficient training of operators also has positive consequences. It reduces risk to our troops and makes demilitarization easier."

I'll let someone else reply to this rambling.

I guess we should show what you wrote to admin. Name calling is against rules, as far as I know. You should read them -- https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/forum-rules-please-read/

[vad]

Number 2) there is no need to reverse engineer this old stuff. Russia has much better systems which have destroyed both Leopards and Challengers. So much so that you don't see those tanks on battle field, they keep them back, because sending them forward means only only one thing. Now the hunt is for Abrams, again, not a single Abrams was seen at the front line, they keeping them waaaay back!

The only portable Russian-made ATGM mentioned on Wikipedia is the 9M133 Kornet. Unlike Javelin's top-attack fire-and-forget system, this Russian "analogovnet" relies on archaic laser beam-riding guidance.

That said, if you blindly shell the enemy territory with one million artillery rounds obtained from North Korea, you do have a good chance of accidentally hitting M1A1 Abrams tanks provided by the USA to Ukraine. It took the Biden administration more than a year to strip down the 31 tanks of tungsten armor and advanced electronics, making them an easy target for North Korea's analogovnet artillery rounds.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_man-portable_anti-tank_systems

[tszaboo]

This is the result of your average hit.

Keep on lying.
I didn't call you names, did I?

[EPAIII]

Yes, there are many routes where military equipment can make it's way to unauthorized persons.

Back in the 60s I worked at the US Army Missile Command in an office with over a dozen file cabinets that were stuffed with Confidential and Secret documents on then current, missile systems. Many military secrets were there. We went to great measures to insure it was all either being constantly watched by one of us or all the cabinets were locked, checked, and double checked, usually at the end of each day. But we had little doubt that the Russians already knew at least 95% of it. How did they get it? EVERY WAY they could.

Keeping military secrets secret is a very, very difficult task.

I would be very surprised if the Russians did not have special squads roaming the battlefields grabbing whatever they can find. And likewise for the Ukrainians and even some US personnel. Heck, Ukrainian farmers are hauling Russian tanks behind their tractors, probably to turn them over to their army....

That would not surprise me, but between the age of the design and the U.S. military's poor inventory control, anyone who needs them has probably already collected and parameterized enough good examples. A quick search for javelin missile "stolen" gave a Ukranian market price of $30K/unit.

[SiliconWizard]

Nice design anyway. That's one thing with military equipment - you can design reliable stuff and not have to bother with aiming for the lowest cheapest crap you can get away with.

[shapirus]

Nice design anyway. That's one thing with military equipment - you can design reliable stuff and not have to bother with aiming for the lowest cheapest crap you can get away with.

...unless your budget is limited and you need to manufacture extreme volumes of the device. Reducing the price per one good russian is essential.

[EEVblog]

I love that there are some form of DSUBs in there.  So much for not being good for "high vibration environments"

DSUB's were designed for the military and are extensively used in old military gear for internal connections.
You can see them in my B52 astrocompass teardown:
https://youtu.be/hzGaO4Kdz2Y?si=-r6GMKGZy3Z5xBlf&t=510

[nctnico]

I understand another issue is that people are (were?) not getting enough time to learn the system which further lowers its success rate.

Early report, it has 93% hit rate, catapulting the T72 tower into low earth orbit.

The latter is not due to the explosive charge in the missile but a stupid design of the tank. The munition isn’t stored in the turret of the T72 but in the body. Hit the body and all the munition goes off at once which blows the turret away. That is why you see people jumping from a T72 when they suspect there is somebody around with an anti-tank weapon. There is no chance of survival inside the T72.

[nctnico]

Nice design anyway. That's one thing with military equipment - you can design reliable stuff and not have to bother with aiming for the lowest cheapest crap you can get away with.

Somehow that seems to be no longer true. If you can make large volumes of simple weapons using Arduinos or RPis, you can be very effective. War is all about logistics and careful/effective use of resources.