Author Topic: Tesla Cybertruck  (Read 14460 times)

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Offline schmitt triggerTopic starter

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Tesla Cybertruck
« on: December 02, 2023, 05:09:16 pm »
A little bit long video but worthwhile to watch it complete.
I never knew before how revolutionary the Cybertruck’s engineering was. A true game changer.
And I believe that it illustrates how come the stumbling attempts at electrification from the established automakers have not been successful.

https://youtu.be/L6WDq0V5oBg?si=mNWUvEV9UpD0pKS-
 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2023, 05:24:14 pm »
It also has revolutionary results when hitting pedestrians or other vehicles, those sharp stainless steel edges will do marvels.
Can't even figure out how they got it approved.
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Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2023, 05:25:18 pm »
Gamechanging what aspects exactly?
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2023, 05:30:36 pm »
What is so special about it? Not got enough signal to watch a YT vid where I am at the moment.
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Offline Neilm

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2023, 06:59:52 pm »
I'm most surprised they got permission to do stear by wire, so there is no reason it couldn't be made RHD with only a little effort
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2023, 09:44:39 pm »
The driver can't see where the car ends in front, and does not have a rear window as soon as he closes the tonneau cover over the entire back. Oh, and he can't see through the upper right quadrant of the windshield when it rains, because the wiper doesn't go there. Revolutionary...

And because it is not enough to have to rely on front and rear cameras for visibility, you can remove the side mirrors too for coolness. And to make really sure it looks smart, the car does not have door handles either. Good luck to the firefighters who want to force the doors open and pull you out after a crash!

The whole design seems as impractical as it did at first glance. Drawn by an 8-year old or by a comic book writer -- or maybe by Elon himself, who seems a good fit for both roles.
 
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Offline CJay

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2023, 10:01:57 pm »
The driver can't see where the car ends in front, and does not have a rear window as soon as he closes the tonneau cover over the entire back. Oh, and he can't see through the upper right quadrant of the windshield when it rains, because the wiper doesn't go there. Revolutionary...

And because it is not enough to have to rely on front and rear cameras for visibility, you can remove the side mirrors too for coolness. And to make really sure it looks smart, the car does not have door handles either. Good luck to the firefighters who want to force the doors open and pull you out after a crash!

The whole design seems as impractical as it did at first glance. Drawn by an 8-year old or by a comic book writer -- or maybe by Elon himself, who seems a good fit for both roles.

 
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Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2023, 10:23:55 pm »
Did Elon ever heard of crumble zone? (Or whatever it's called)
Modern cars intentionally crush badly to reduce the G forces... But look how harsh a crash is!
It starts crushing nicely... but then hits the rock-hard, rigid chasis and the occupants go ballistic, the vehicle even bounces back and hits them harder.
Sharp corners, strong chassis... Else from electronics, this car technology is like 1970!
Also, I suspect all those test where made without the full weight of the batteries? Go figure!

You'll come out as tomato sauce!

« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 10:31:49 pm by DavidAlfa »
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Offline Benta

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2023, 10:39:06 pm »
It's just an extension of Musk's personality. Smash everyone else out of the way using armour, sharp edges and no consideration for others.
Very fitting.
.
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2023, 10:46:13 pm »
The driver can't see where the car ends in front, and does not have a rear window as soon as he closes the tonneau cover over the entire back. Oh, and he can't see through the upper right quadrant of the windshield when it rains, because the wiper doesn't go there. Revolutionary...
Welcome to the world of oversized pickup trucks and SUV where driver cannot see shit right in front of them. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/americas-cars-trucks-are-getting-bigger-are-front-blind-zones-children-rcna52109 Cybertruck actually is not that bad in this regard and also has a rear and front cameras. EDIT: misunderstood what you mean, yes you cannot see where its front ends but it also reduces blind zone on the front.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 11:52:56 pm by wraper »
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2023, 11:04:47 pm »
Hey, looks like tesla can build cars without panel gaps! All it takes for it to be the prototype car that journalists are reviewing.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2023, 11:07:29 pm »
Did Elon ever heard of crumble zone? (Or whatever it's called)
Modern cars intentionally crush badly to reduce the G forces... But look how harsh a crash is! It starts crushing nicely... but then hits the rock-hard, rigid chasis and the occupants go ballistic, the vehicle even bounces back and hits them harder.
Cabin must keep its shape.
Quote
Sharp corners, strong chassis... Else from electronics, this car technology is like 1970!
It's like nothing else in body construction and mechanical part of things. Utterly nonsensical argument.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 11:09:16 pm by wraper »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2023, 11:13:06 pm »
Elon bad. Did I sum it up correctly?
 
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Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2023, 11:15:33 pm »
You're both real boring, sometimes I wonder if you're trolls.
Cabin blah blah blah... *Car must be safe!!*. Compared to other cars, you won't survive a crash in that.
There's almost no crushing zone, you get a real hard stop, really fast.
You've been served facts, you answer like woketards. Ohh Elon bad?
We'll I don't know him personally, but that truck looks like a really expensive coffin and a meat grinder for anyone getting too close.
So this product he made is BAD.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 11:21:22 pm by DavidAlfa »
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Offline HalFET

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2023, 11:21:37 pm »
It also has revolutionary results when hitting pedestrians or other vehicles, those sharp stainless steel edges will do marvels.
Can't even figure out how they got it approved.

There's a reason it ain't being released in Europe.
 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2023, 11:22:53 pm »
Yeah that's due stainless steel springiness, makes it complicated to get pressed into the desired shape, it always bounces back a little bit.
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2023, 11:24:59 pm »
Did Elon ever heard of crumble zone? (Or whatever it's called)
Modern cars intentionally crush badly to reduce the G forces... But look how harsh a crash is!

You mean like this?



The Cybertruck looks more like this result (FF to 0:46)

« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 11:29:50 pm by bdunham7 »
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2023, 11:27:38 pm »
That comparation makes no sense.
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2023, 11:36:17 pm »
That comparation makes no sense.

No?  The first shows a vehicle doing a lot of crumpling and absorbing a lot of energy so that there is almost no rebound.  The second one of the XC90 shows a lot less crumpling and a lot of rebound, just like the Cybertruck.  One of the two vehicles has an exemplary safety record and excellent crash test ratings--guess which one?  If you think the Ford comparison is unfair or irrelevant, just ignore it--I know it's a different test, I was just looking for an example of too much crumpling being obviously counterproductive.  Tell me what differences you see between the general crash appearance of the Tesla and the Volvo.

Here's a video of a full-frontal crash demonstrating 'too much' crumple zone.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 11:39:15 pm by bdunham7 »
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2023, 11:38:45 pm »
Could you elaborate on that?

It's matter of fact that 2000s cars performed awfully.
Also, full frontal crash is the least of the problems, it's the partial collision what makes things really messy (Usual deadly crash when you step into the opposite lane), concentrating all the force in a small area.
(Which is happening to that 2001 truck, not in the Volvo, so not a fair comparison).
European test does exactly that:
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 12:34:41 am by DavidAlfa »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2023, 11:47:36 pm »
The problem is that you can not say anything sensible based on the video footage. You need to have the data for the impact on the crash-test dummies.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 12:10:23 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2023, 11:56:56 pm »
Tesla is too hard everywhere. Easy, ain't it?

First, I'm just not seeing that.  Second, with modern restraint and airbag technology, making the cabin stronger and preventing intrusion is more important then crumpling.  I don't see a clear problem with how the Tesla is performing in the video and I was pointing out that it is reasonably similar to the Volvo.  We also don't know the speed and exact barrier type, it's just a video.  Perhaps it will crumple more at higher speeds, just like the Volvo will.  I've seen them virtually crushed back to the firewall without bending up the passenger compartment much.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2023, 12:00:49 am »
Also so much tech... and no curtain airbags whatsoever?
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Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2023, 12:07:05 am »
Also so much tech... and no curtain airbags whatsoever?
FFS, haven't you heard about airbags deploying as needed? Also pause the very same video you posted at 0:12-0:18.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 12:09:16 am by wraper »
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2023, 12:12:36 am »
The problem is that you can say anything sensible based on the video footage. You need to have the data for the impact on the crash-test dummies.

That sounds reasonable, everyone likes data, right?  But lack of cabin deformation and intrusion is the real key (as proven in real life) and you can see that on a video pretty clearly.  Not all crashes will be the same and the dummy might be lucky or unlucky in a particular test, just like sometimes you see someone emerging unscathed from a crash where the car is ripped to pieces.  But statistically, you don't want cars that look like this in crashes:

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g35863519/watch-these-12-vehicles-score-poor-ratings-during-iihs-crash-testing/

I'm not a fan of Elon, Tesla or the Cybertruck but I wouldn't say that it is likely to be unsafe (in a crash, we'll see about that 4-wheel steer-by-wire system) or that it isn't an impressive design.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 12:22:36 am by bdunham7 »
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline .RC.

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2023, 12:27:48 am »

It starts crushing nicely... but then hits the rock-hard, rigid chasis and the occupants go ballistic, the vehicle even bounces back and hits them harder.


That is all OK, because the batteries will then catch fire cooking the occupants who can not escape anyway.
 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2023, 12:32:45 am »
 :-DD :-DD True, better to die quickly!
Old car engineers thought exactly this. "Poor guy, with wife, kids, awful job, let's give him a quick escape!"
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 12:38:02 am by DavidAlfa »
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Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2023, 12:38:26 am »

It starts crushing nicely... but then hits the rock-hard, rigid chasis and the occupants go ballistic, the vehicle even bounces back and hits them harder.


That is all OK, because the batteries will then catch fire cooking the occupants who can not escape anyway.
Except EV catch fire way slower so chances of escaping are higher and it happens 10+ times rarer (per same number of units) than with ICE vehicles. You don't see ICE vehicles on fire in the news because it happens so often that it's too mundane. Also Cybertruck has manual door release, the same as other Tesla cars.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 12:40:33 am by wraper »
 
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Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2023, 12:41:55 am »
Door handles? Where? Only inside?
How do firefighters open it if you're injured or unconscious?

What I can't understand is Elon fanboys. Supporting him no matter what. You have to keep a neutral thinking.
So anyone saying anything bad about Elon? Here it comes, the Elon fanboys horde!
I liked Elon ideas when coming to the Tesla, home energy storage, Paypal... But Mars, Las Vegas's tunnels, Cybertruck, looks like he's losing it, he's just obsessed.
Imagine a beloved one getting hit at 10mph with a normal car full of plastic, hopefully some broken ribs but not live-changing injuries.
Now repeat with those cutting-sharp edges. Easily, 500% more chances of dying.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 12:55:30 am by DavidAlfa »
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Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2023, 01:10:58 am »
Door handles? Where? Only inside?
How do firefighters open it if you're injured or unconscious?
Break the window.
It may be a surprise for you but in modern cars doors get automatically locked when driving. So outer handle is absolutely useless unless it gets automatically unlocked after the accident, and it likely won't if crash was serious or car does not have post accident unlocking feature.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 01:15:24 am by wraper »
 
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Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2023, 01:20:12 am »
Are you refering to the - supposedly - bulletproof window?
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Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2023, 01:24:36 am »
Are you refering to the - supposedly - bulletproof window?
Windows are high strength but not bulletproof. You can certainly break them with right tools (some sharp pointy thing made of very hard material).
 

Offline Dan123456

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2023, 01:50:31 am »
Hey, looks like tesla can build cars without panel gaps! All it takes for it to be the prototype car that journalists are reviewing.

Nope! They can’t even do that!

I was watching this yesterday and at 7:30 he talks about the panel gaps all being different  :P

 

Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2023, 01:55:22 am »
Nope! They can’t even do that!

I was watching this yesterday and at 7:30 he talks about the panel gaps all being different  :P
On different prototypes though. Those that were given for rides were fine. As of how it will be on actual production cars is yet to be seen.
 

Offline Dan123456

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2023, 01:58:31 am »
Are you refering to the - supposedly - bulletproof window?

Errr… don’t you mean “thermonuclear bomb proof” according to musk  :P

In reality, I’ve thrown things at normal car windows harder than they through that baseball in their demo so am pretty sure it is just laminated glass  :P

Wow! The genus has reinvented laminated glass! Hmmmm I wonder if any of his other genius ideas are just existing works that have been stolen and relabelled?  :-DD
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 02:00:09 am by Dan123456 »
 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2023, 02:38:54 am »
This explains everything. He made the definitive people-shocking machine!
« Last Edit: December 11, 2023, 02:01:21 pm by DavidAlfa »
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Offline pickle9000

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2023, 04:26:10 am »
Not a fan of Musk but he certainly has good engineers at tesla. The most amazing thing is
the "blow it up and go" attitude. Outside of tesla is another story.
 

Offline schmitt triggerTopic starter

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2023, 04:41:47 am »
What is so special about it? Not got enough signal to watch a YT vid where I am at the moment.
I am no Elon Musk fanboy. But I do recognize that he can think outside the box, and risk failure.
Drive by wire, for instance, allowing to tailor the steering ratio depending to speed.
48 volt electrical systems is another. Over 20 years ago the limitations of 12 volts with ever increasing loads was recognized.  Mainstream auto makers didn’t want to commit to the change. Elon decided to implement it.
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2023, 04:45:19 am »
Over 20 years ago the limitations of 12 volts with ever increasing loads was recognized.  Mainstream auto makers didn’t want to commit to the change.

Which is interesting because 24/28V systems have been around forever on commercial vehicles.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2023, 08:39:38 am »

I am no Elon Musk fanboy. But I do recognize that he can think outside the box, and risk failure.
Drive by wire,.. 48 volt electrical systems is another... Elon decided to implement it.

Same.

Thinking outside the box, fail fast mentality, and actually getting stuff done are his strengths.

Getting engineers to solve problems instead of getting managers to use engineers to solve problems.

Giving engineers a working environment to do things the right way, and to spend their time on things that actually matter, rather than things that look good on a managers quarterly report.

Sure, it will be overhyped and maybe it will take 3x longer than expected but that's normal when breaking new ground.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 08:43:15 am by Psi »
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2023, 12:57:19 pm »
Hey, looks like tesla can build cars without panel gaps! All it takes for it to be the prototype car that journalists are reviewing.

Nope! They can’t even do that!

I was watching this yesterday and at 7:30 he talks about the panel gaps all being different  :P
Ok I stand corrected. Tesla cannot build a car with good panel gaps.
Something others figured out in the 60s.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2023, 01:18:14 pm »
Hey, looks like tesla can build cars without panel gaps! All it takes for it to be the prototype car that journalists are reviewing.

Nope! They can’t even do that!

I was watching this yesterday and at 7:30 he talks about the panel gaps all being different  :P
Ok I stand corrected. Tesla cannot build a car with good panel gaps.
Something others figured out in the 60s.
They can in China. The worst are from Freemont, California (what a surprise).
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2023, 01:38:46 pm »
Hey, looks like tesla can build cars without panel gaps! All it takes for it to be the prototype car that journalists are reviewing.

Nope! They can’t even do that!

I was watching this yesterday and at 7:30 he talks about the panel gaps all being different  :P
Ok I stand corrected. Tesla cannot build a car with good panel gaps.
Something others figured out in the 60s.

https://youtu.be/mIAYxWCXF8A?si=hIiCcfKGgaehH-Ge
 

Offline DavidAlfa

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2023, 01:41:37 pm »
And that was the old British car fame. Cars that could be bent by hand!
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Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2023, 03:50:45 pm »
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2023, 04:24:37 pm »
The more things change... (opens at 28:07)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3FUH9fVC_M?t=1696

Edit: I give up, no idea how you guys are getting the embedding or the timestamps to actually work properly.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 04:37:59 pm by KE5FX »
 

Offline rdl

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2023, 05:35:20 pm »
Isn't it just right click on the video and select "copy video URL at current time"?

https://youtu.be/F3FUH9fVC_M?t=1687

note the youtu.be not youtube
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2023, 05:41:45 pm »

Drive by wire, for instance, allowing to tailor the steering ratio depending to speed.


This has been tried before, and does not work. The reason should be obvious to anyone that's ever driven a vehicle. The closest to variable steering that actually works is the various 4WS systems the Japanese manufacturers used in the 1980s-1990s. Curiously they don't bother any more.
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Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2023, 05:41:59 pm »
Vehicle Safety tests are a little bit of an odd thing. They have changed many times over the years as better research comes out about accidents. Some manufacturers are very good at building to the required test, but how realistic that testing is makes me wonder. Motorcycle helmet testing and certification are much the same. So I won't diss the Tesla on that basis.

Though I am not sure how much the emergency services will like some of the bomb-proof glass etc that was rumoured to be on the vehicle but I am sure solutions will be found soon enough. Much like how criminals will find a way into them.

I think the steering by wire is interesting and I suspect part of the reason they are using it is because they have proven it to be safe. I remember issues about cars using electronics for the throttle and the fears that arose from it. So time will tell if its going to be an issue.

I will say though, I really think the Tesla is ugly and the kind of thing I drew as a kid using that Triangle thing we all had in stationary kits for school. But I don't have much taste, I drive a Defender 110.

Lots of new tech has lots of toys that are prone to failure. Plan obsolescence?

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Offline HalFET

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2023, 07:40:29 pm »
Door handles? Where? Only inside?
How do firefighters open it if you're injured or unconscious?
Break the window.
It may be a surprise for you but in modern cars doors get automatically locked when driving. So outer handle is absolutely useless unless it gets automatically unlocked after the accident, and it likely won't if crash was serious or car does not have post accident unlocking feature.
Most modern cars will detect when an accident is happening, and while for a human that's an incomprehensible short time, for the electronics, servos, and motors that's an eternity to still do things. Some modern cars will do things like activate the brakes, tilt seats away from the side, tension the seat-belts before there's even an impact, pull away the steering wheel column, etc. So I wouldn't be surprised if unlocking the doors and trunk is part of such a system.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2023, 07:54:32 pm »
I really hope it doesn't come to the UK/EU.

We have enough problems with people driving ridiculously oversized vehicles and killing pedestrians and cyclists in avoidable accidents.  Not to mention small roads, cramped car parks... seeing someone maneuver this around a normal multistory car park would be a sight.

The SUV was a cursed invention, I really wish it had never been a thing.  Massive trucks like these as personal vehicles is just taking that to the next, most ridiculous level.
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2023, 07:56:37 pm »
Door handles? Where? Only inside?
How do firefighters open it if you're injured or unconscious?
Break the window.
It may be a surprise for you but in modern cars doors get automatically locked when driving. So outer handle is absolutely useless unless it gets automatically unlocked after the accident, and it likely won't if crash was serious or car does not have post accident unlocking feature.
Most modern cars will detect when an accident is happening, and while for a human that's an incomprehensible short time, for the electronics, servos, and motors that's an eternity to still do things. Some modern cars will do things like activate the brakes, tilt seats away from the side, tension the seat-belts before there's even an impact, pull away the steering wheel column, etc. So I wouldn't be surprised if unlocking the doors and trunk is part of such a system.

I think it was Jaguar that showed a hood that lifted when it detected a collision, to comply with the pedestrian safety regulations requiring a minimum of 3 inches of space between the hood and hard points like engine and suspension

Locked doors might be a way to make sure the doors don't open during an accident compromising the passenger compartment, if so you wouldn't want them unlocking until after the accident



 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2023, 08:00:10 pm »
I really hope it doesn't come to the UK/EU.

We have enough problems with people driving ridiculously oversized vehicles and killing pedestrians and cyclists in avoidable accidents.  Not to mention small roads, cramped car parks... seeing someone maneuver this around a normal multistory car park would be a sight.

The SUV was a cursed invention, I really wish it had never been a thing.  Massive trucks like these as personal vehicles is just taking that to the next, most ridiculous level.

hasn't "Pedestrian Detection and Collision Mitigation Systems" with automatic braking not become mandatory yet?, I know it's been proposed so it won't be long
 
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Offline Benta

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2023, 08:32:25 pm »

Drive by wire, for instance, allowing to tailor the steering ratio depending to speed.


This has been tried before, and does not work. The reason should be obvious to anyone that's ever driven a vehicle. The closest to variable steering that actually works is the various 4WS systems the Japanese manufacturers used in the 1980s-1990s. Curiously they don't bother any more.

Strange statement and wrong.
My 2005 BMW 330i (E90) had active steering and it worked perfectly, I enjoyed it. The 5-series had it even earlier. It's a standard option not only offered by BMW (I think, didn't check other brands).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_steering
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 08:36:33 pm by Benta »
 

Offline Benta

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2023, 08:52:29 pm »
I really hope it doesn't come to the UK/EU.

We have enough problems with people driving ridiculously oversized vehicles and killing pedestrians and cyclists in avoidable accidents.  Not to mention small roads, cramped car parks... seeing someone maneuver this around a normal multistory car park would be a sight.

The SUV was a cursed invention, I really wish it had never been a thing.  Massive trucks like these as personal vehicles is just taking that to the next, most ridiculous level.

Well, you Brits brought the SUV over here with the Range Rover, the ultimate accessory for suburban housewives.

In the US, the parking slots/lots are big enough.
 

Offline andre_teprom

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2023, 09:03:39 pm »
I checked out that video, and you're right, it's pretty mind-blowing how innovative the Cybertruck's engineering is. Tesla definitely shook things up in the automotive world. It's like they rewrote the rules. Traditional automakers do seem to be lagging behind in the EV game.
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Offline tom66

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2023, 09:05:18 pm »

Drive by wire, for instance, allowing to tailor the steering ratio depending to speed.


This has been tried before, and does not work. The reason should be obvious to anyone that's ever driven a vehicle. The closest to variable steering that actually works is the various 4WS systems the Japanese manufacturers used in the 1980s-1990s. Curiously they don't bother any more.

It's literally used by Nissan in some of their vehicles.  There's a redundant clutch which activates if power is lost or there is a fault with the system providing a mechanical override, but in normal use the steering is entirely electronic.  Combined with variable resistance on the wheel you could create quite a realistic feel whilst gaining the benefits of truly adaptive steering.  That said, I can't quite get over the idea of having no mechanical linkage, I don't trust the redundant system quite enough.  And ordinary electric power steering is perfectly sufficient IMO, I've never thought that this would improve things, just make them more expensive if anything went wrong!



hasn't "Pedestrian Detection and Collision Mitigation Systems" with automatic braking not become mandatory yet?, I know it's been proposed so it won't be long

Yes, these systems exist, I am pretty sure my car has this system:
https://youtu.be/watch?v=0P7M8PvG0Pc&t=2m37s

However such systems are not infallable, they cannot detect all pedestrians, cyclists etc.  Adding more mass will always mean any accident that does happen is more severe. The focus should be on reducing vehicle size and weight where possible.  Especially on reducing bonnet height, as that strongly defines the severity of an accident:  if you hit a pedestrian with a lower-down car like a Golf, they're much more likely to impact their head on the windscreen, which is less likely to be fatal than with an SUV where head impacts tend to be on bodywork.

Obviously, some people need larger vehicles, such as those with wheelchairs, elderly/infirm people, and those who use their vehicle as part of their profession.  But SUVs (and trucks) are primarily marketed towards people as a vanity purchase*, and the average occupancy of an SUV barely exceeds that of a smaller car. Cybertruck is even worse, though the statistic in the US for pickup trucks is something like only 30% of people use their pickup bed more than once per year, it's crazy.

*Like for instance, the ridiculous SUV ads like these: https://youtu.be/watch?v=0ITLWCfxmLc  ... yeah, the majority of the time, this vehicle is gonna be sitting in traffic, like the rest of us.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2023, 09:08:48 pm »
I think the steering by wire is interesting and I suspect part of the reason they are using it is because they have proven it to be safe. I remember issues about cars using electronics for the throttle and the fears that arose from it. So time will tell if its going to be an issue.
I'm curious to know what sort of redundancy features that has. I presume there's already a lot of redundancy for the self driving feature, so the only real addition would be redundant sensors for the driver input. There's already at least 2 battery systems (3 if the main one is a pair of 400V sections) so that's solved for power redundancy.
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Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2023, 09:21:57 pm »

Drive by wire, for instance, allowing to tailor the steering ratio depending to speed.


This has been tried before, and does not work. The reason should be obvious to anyone that's ever driven a vehicle. The closest to variable steering that actually works is the various 4WS systems the Japanese manufacturers used in the 1980s-1990s. Curiously they don't bother any more.

Strange statement and wrong.
My 2005 BMW 330i (E90) had active steering and it worked perfectly, I enjoyed it. The 5-series had it even earlier. It's a standard option not only offered by BMW (I think, didn't check other brands).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_steering
Steer by wire is not the same as active steering at all.  Also Cybertuck turns both front and rear wheels. Rear wheels actually turn in different direction depending on speed.
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2023, 09:25:15 pm »

Drive by wire, for instance, allowing to tailor the steering ratio depending to speed.


This has been tried before, and does not work. The reason should be obvious to anyone that's ever driven a vehicle. The closest to variable steering that actually works is the various 4WS systems the Japanese manufacturers used in the 1980s-1990s. Curiously they don't bother any more.

Strange statement and wrong.
My 2005 BMW 330i (E90) had active steering and it worked perfectly, I enjoyed it. The 5-series had it even earlier. It's a standard option not only offered by BMW (I think, didn't check other brands).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_steering
Steer by wire is not the same as active steering at all.  Also Cybertuck turns both front and rear wheels. Rear wheels actually turn in different direction depending on speed.

Honda Prelude had four wheel steering 35 years ago
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2023, 09:37:24 pm »
Steer by wire is not the same as active steering at all.  Also Cybertuck turns both front and rear wheels. Rear wheels actually turn in different direction depending on speed.

Honda Prelude had four wheel steering 35 years ago
Did it do the same as what I wrote? At low speed Cybertruck rear wheels turn up to 10o in opposite direction from front wheels. At high speed they turn up to 2o in the same direction as front wheels.
 

Offline Benta

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2023, 09:41:33 pm »

Drive by wire, for instance, allowing to tailor the steering ratio depending to speed.


This has been tried before, and does not work. The reason should be obvious to anyone that's ever driven a vehicle. The closest to variable steering that actually works is the various 4WS systems the Japanese manufacturers used in the 1980s-1990s. Curiously they don't bother any more.

Strange statement and wrong.
My 2005 BMW 330i (E90) had active steering and it worked perfectly, I enjoyed it. The 5-series had it even earlier. It's a standard option not only offered by BMW (I think, didn't check other brands).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_steering
Steer by wire is not the same as active steering at all.  Also Cybertuck turns both front and rear wheels. Rear wheels actually turn in different direction depending on speed.
I never said it was. Please read what I responded to. Which was:
"The closest to variable steering that actually works is the various 4WS systems..." which is nonsense.
Drive-by-wire is something else (and something I'd never want, but that's a different subject).
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2023, 09:45:49 pm »
Did it do the same as what I wrote? At low speed Cybertruck rear wheels turn up to 10o in opposite direction from front wheels. At high speed they turn up to 2o in the same direction as front wheels.

Yes, the Prelude 4WS went both ways.  It was also completely mechanical and didn't have 10 degrees of authority (I think it was 5 or 6), but yes it shortened the turning radius in parking lots as well as improved lane change maneuvers.  My Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 also had 4WS, but it only worked same-direction and at higher speeds.
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Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2023, 09:53:09 pm »
I found a video where it does some weird oscillation on rear wheels when changing steering direction.

 

Offline HalFET

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2023, 09:58:37 pm »
I really hope it doesn't come to the UK/EU.

We have enough problems with people driving ridiculously oversized vehicles and killing pedestrians and cyclists in avoidable accidents.  Not to mention small roads, cramped car parks... seeing someone maneuver this around a normal multistory car park would be a sight.

The SUV was a cursed invention, I really wish it had never been a thing.  Massive trucks like these as personal vehicles is just taking that to the next, most ridiculous level.

hasn't "Pedestrian Detection and Collision Mitigation Systems" with automatic braking not become mandatory yet?, I know it's been proposed so it won't be long

In most of Europe, yes, I believe that was part of the same package that made a reverse camera mandatory.
 

Offline Dan123456

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2023, 02:19:39 am »
Steer by wire is not the same as active steering at all.  Also Cybertuck turns both front and rear wheels. Rear wheels actually turn in different direction depending on speed.

Honda Prelude had four wheel steering 35 years ago
Did it do the same as what I wrote? At low speed Cybertruck rear wheels turn up to 10o in opposite direction from front wheels. At high speed they turn up to 2o in the same direction as front wheels.

The R32 Nissan skyline has rear wheel steering apparently up to 10 degrees. And it was released in 1989.

“Nissan were great advocates of four-wheel steering and started with hydraulic HICAS systems which could turn the rear wheels up to 10 degrees in either direction.”

https://www.carthrottle.com/news/ins-and-outs-four-wheel-steering
 

Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2023, 10:38:38 am »
Windows are high strength but not bulletproof. You can certainly break them with right tools (some sharp pointy thing made of very hard material).

soooo... if a cybertruck is crashed and locked and you need to get someone unconscious out of it, you can hit it with another cybertruck!
 
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Offline Benta

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2023, 09:35:07 pm »
It won't come to the EU (or UK, Switzerland etc.).
It's simply too heavy (3.5 tons), which requires that the driver needs a license for driving trucks.
When driving a truck, you're not allowed private use or transport of passengers, so your friend or wife needs to be an employee.
Also the speed limit for trucks is 80 km/h (50 mph).

I can't think of a more unattractive packet for a potential buyer, ignoring the price.
 

Online magic

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2023, 09:39:20 pm »
You have never seen a truck in your life, have you?
3.5t is the maximum gross weight for normal license.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2023, 09:57:04 pm »
It won't come to the EU (or UK, Switzerland etc.).
It's simply too heavy (3.5 tons), which requires that the driver needs a license for driving trucks.
When driving a truck, you're not allowed private use or transport of passengers, so your friend or wife needs to be an employee.
Also the speed limit for trucks is 80 km/h (50 mph).

I can't think of a more unattractive packet for a potential buyer, ignoring the price.
B category drivers license allows maximum authorised mass up to 3.5 metric tons. Cybertruck in Cyberbeast version weights 3.1 ton and regular AWD weights 3 tons. In theory they could pass it as 3.5 ton maximum mass if artificially limit its payload spec. Also EU is in process of bumping the limit to 4250kg for alternatively-fuelled vehicles which would bring it below the limit as is.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2023, 10:51:04 pm »
Beyond the weight, it's hard to really see a market for this in Europe. Time will tell.
But the weight itself raises questions (especially considering that the EU is going to raise the bar, as wraper mentioned) in terms of efficiency.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2023, 11:23:29 pm »
Here's a video of a full-frontal crash demonstrating 'too much' crumple zone.


I actually had one of those. If you read the development story on them they were an immensely strong and durable car. Built to tolerate some of the worst Australian outback roads. Some time ago I did a bit of searching regarding that video. That particular car had several hundred kilograms of sandbags in the boot as well as a number of cuts to the bodywork in strategic places to ensure it folded up in a dramatic way, which it did. Rest assured, proper version of that car were nothing like in that video.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #72 on: December 08, 2023, 11:45:23 pm »
I actually had one of those. If you read the development story on them they were an immensely strong and durable car. Built to tolerate some of the worst Australian outback roads. Some time ago I did a bit of searching regarding that video. That particular car had several hundred kilograms of sandbags in the boot as well as a number of cuts to the bodywork in strategic places to ensure it folded up in a dramatic way, which it did. Rest assured, proper version of that car were nothing like in that video.
The only thing I could find is mention of 300kg of sandbags, nothing about altered body whatsoever.
 

Offline Benta

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #73 on: December 09, 2023, 01:00:07 am »
You have never seen a truck in your life, have you?
3.5t is the maximum gross weight for normal license.
Are you unable to read? Otherwise your comments makes zero sense.
 

Offline Benta

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2023, 01:02:53 am »
Also EU is in process of bumping the limit to 4250kg for alternatively-fuelled vehicles which would bring it below the limit as is.
Interesting, I hadn't heard of that one.
Can you provide a link?
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2023, 01:17:59 am »
« Last Edit: December 09, 2023, 01:21:19 am by wraper »
 
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Offline Benta

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #76 on: December 09, 2023, 01:31:04 am »
Thanks @wraper
I'll continue enjoying my '97 MX-5 (950 kg) and '20 ditto (1060 kg). Makes much more sense to me than lugging around 4 ton.
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #77 on: December 09, 2023, 08:40:01 am »
Here's a video of a full-frontal crash demonstrating 'too much' crumple zone.


I actually had one of those. If you read the development story on them they were an immensely strong and durable car. Built to tolerate some of the worst Australian outback roads. Some time ago I did a bit of searching regarding that video. That particular car had several hundred kilograms of sandbags in the boot as well as a number of cuts to the bodywork in strategic places to ensure it folded up in a dramatic way, which it did. Rest assured, proper version of that car were nothing like in that video.

That reminds my when the American safety people went after the Suzuki Jimmy/Samurai they were found to have modified parameters until they got the results they wanted so that the new popular lightweight 4x4 wouldn't remain popular in the US.

Yes the uk licence allows for 3.5t vehicles on a normal licence. I am interested to see how this plans out when more load carrying vehicles go EV as carrying capacity is rather important.
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #78 on: December 09, 2023, 10:42:42 am »
My comment about the drive-by-wire steering was meant to be specifically about the variable speed part of it. Sorry I wasn't more clear. This isn't a new thing; it's been used by many manufacturers for at least a couple of decades now. I simply remain unconvinced that it's a good thing; I want a predictable response when I turn the wheel, not one that the vehicle chooses based on vehicle speed.
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Offline langwadt

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #79 on: December 09, 2023, 05:18:17 pm »
My comment about the drive-by-wire steering was meant to be specifically about the variable speed part of it. Sorry I wasn't more clear. This isn't a new thing; it's been used by many manufacturers for at least a couple of decades now. I simply remain unconvinced that it's a good thing; I want a predictable response when I turn the wheel, not one that the vehicle chooses based on vehicle speed.

making it a predictable fine response at speed and not having to turn the wheel a million times in the parking lot is the purpose
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #80 on: December 09, 2023, 09:39:26 pm »
Yep. Of course not everyone has the same idea of what predictable is. Which makes sense as we don't all expect the same behavior based on our experience and preferences.
So a better word than "predictable" here, for describing a calculator-assisted steering, would be "standardized". IMO.
If you're used to a given vehicle, even one without any steering assistance whatsoever, then its behavior will be entirely predictable to you, unless something breaks. So it's more like giving vehicles a more "standard" behavior that's more approachable for most drivers.


 

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2023, 12:26:35 am »

It starts crushing nicely... but then hits the rock-hard, rigid chasis and the occupants go ballistic, the vehicle even bounces back and hits them harder.


That is all OK, because the batteries will then catch fire cooking the occupants who can not escape anyway.
Except EV catch fire way slower so chances of escaping are higher and it happens 10+ times rarer (per same number of units) than with ICE vehicles. You don't see ICE vehicles on fire in the news because it happens so often that it's too mundane. Also Cybertruck has manual door release, the same as other Tesla cars.

ICE cars bursting into flames after accidents was so rare in earlier years that we used to sneer at Hollywood movies showing that happening.
Wrecked cars commonly looked like a giant had stepped on them like we might on a tin can, but no sign of fire.
These days, it is so common that it is almost routine.

It seems nobody has connected the dots!

My theory is it is because of the presence of pressurised fuel pipes plus high-capacity fuel pumps.
With old cars, an accident usually stopped the fuel pump so the supply of fuel to help start a fire was much reduced.


Then there are Jeeps, which don't even need the accident, but go "woompf" just sitting in a driveway.

I only ever saw two cars spontaneously "just start to burn" in the old days.
One was my old Austin Tasman, & the other was a early 1980s Peugeot.
In each case, it was a quite gentle, slow process, with plenty of time to remove yourself & valuables from the vehicle.

 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #82 on: December 10, 2023, 12:36:50 am »

Drive by wire, for instance, allowing to tailor the steering ratio depending to speed.


This has been tried before, and does not work. The reason should be obvious to anyone that's ever driven a vehicle. The closest to variable steering that actually works is the various 4WS systems the Japanese manufacturers used in the 1980s-1990s. Curiously they don't bother any more.

It's literally used by Nissan in some of their vehicles.  There's a redundant clutch which activates if power is lost or there is a fault with the system providing a mechanical override, but in normal use the steering is entirely electronic.  Combined with variable resistance on the wheel you could create quite a realistic feel whilst gaining the benefits of truly adaptive steering.  That said, I can't quite get over the idea of having no mechanical linkage, I don't trust the redundant system quite enough.  And ordinary electric power steering is perfectly sufficient IMO, I've never thought that this would improve things, just make them more expensive if anything went wrong!



hasn't "Pedestrian Detection and Collision Mitigation Systems" with automatic braking not become mandatory yet?, I know it's been proposed so it won't be long

Yes, these systems exist, I am pretty sure my car has this system:
https://youtu.be/watch?v=0P7M8PvG0Pc&t=2m37s

However such systems are not infallable, they cannot detect all pedestrians, cyclists etc.  Adding more mass will always mean any accident that does happen is more severe. The focus should be on reducing vehicle size and weight where possible.  Especially on reducing bonnet height, as that strongly defines the severity of an accident:  if you hit a pedestrian with a lower-down car like a Golf, they're much more likely to impact their head on the windscreen, which is less likely to be fatal than with an SUV where head impacts tend to be on bodywork.

Obviously, some people need larger vehicles, such as those with wheelchairs, elderly/infirm people, and those who use their vehicle as part of their profession.  But SUVs (and trucks) are primarily marketed towards people as a vanity purchase*, and the average occupancy of an SUV barely exceeds that of a smaller car. Cybertruck is even worse, though the statistic in the US for pickup trucks is something like only 30% of people use their pickup bed more than once per year, it's crazy.

*Like for instance, the ridiculous SUV ads like these: https://youtu.be/watch?v=0ITLWCfxmLc  ... yeah, the majority of the time, this vehicle is gonna be sitting in traffic, like the rest of us.
4 wheel steering, the authentic ultimate version:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JXD9c3DZw8o
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #83 on: December 10, 2023, 01:33:49 am »
4 wheel steering, the authentic ultimate version:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JXD9c3DZw8o
That's just yet another concept though. You can implement all sorts of weird shit on those because it does not need to actually work IRL or have sensible cost.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #84 on: December 10, 2023, 01:38:22 am »
Here's a video of a full-frontal crash demonstrating 'too much' crumple zone.


I actually had one of those. If you read the development story on them they were an immensely strong and durable car. Built to tolerate some of the worst Australian outback roads. Some time ago I did a bit of searching regarding that video. That particular car had several hundred kilograms of sandbags in the boot as well as a number of cuts to the bodywork in strategic places to ensure it folded up in a dramatic way, which it did. Rest assured, proper version of that car were nothing like in that video.

Anyone of a reasonable age who lives in Australia would have seen many Holden Commodores of that model which had been involved in real accidents.
In a front-end impact like that, the front crumple zones operated as designed, with the passenger compartment remaining largely intact, obviously depending upon the severity of the accident.

Over time, for some inconceivable reason, there was a concerted effort by some to denigrate anything Australian made, but this is the first time I have seen such a blatantly fake video about Commodores.

GMH made plenty of stuff ups like any manufacturer, especially after GM in Detroit started reducing the autonomy of its subsidiary companies around the World.

That went well, didn't it Vauxhall?

 

Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #85 on: December 10, 2023, 01:42:14 am »
ICE cars bursting into flames after accidents was so rare in earlier years that we used to sneer at Hollywood movies showing that happening.
Wrecked cars commonly looked like a giant had stepped on them like we might on a tin can, but no sign of fire.
These days, it is so common that it is almost routine.
They always burned in flames, of course only some percentage of crashes result in fire. They just very rarely explode like in movies. I've seen burning ICE car myself and it didn't even crash, just cough flames under the hood when driving near my home.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #86 on: December 10, 2023, 02:23:06 am »
ICE cars bursting into flames after accidents was so rare in earlier years that we used to sneer at Hollywood movies showing that happening.
Wrecked cars commonly looked like a giant had stepped on them like we might on a tin can, but no sign of fire.
These days, it is so common that it is almost routine.
They always burned in flames, of course only some percentage of crashes result in fire. They just very rarely explode like in movies. I've seen burning ICE car myself and it didn't even crash, just cough flames under the hood when driving near my home.

My main point was that cars burning up after accidents was rarely seen, whereas it is much more common now.
It is very evident when you have been around as long as me.

The engine fires I have seen were slow burning, looking much more like an oil fire from leaky rocker cover gaskets.

In the case of my Austin, it was literally that, causing the noise deadener on the firewall becoming saturated, plus Leyland Australia choosing to place the exhaust manifold very close to the firewall when they were determining the best way to fit an "East West" 6cyl engine in the space normally occupied by a four.
 

Offline Dan123456

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #87 on: December 10, 2023, 02:52:48 am »
My main point was that cars burning up after accidents was rarely seen, whereas it is much more common now.

I do wonder if this is due to cars having significantly more electrical systems than they used to.

The vast majority of fires I have seen are due to electrical faults. Especially when some peanut has decided to wire up their on stereo or light bar etc. incorrectly.

Don’t get me wrong, rubber / plastic fuel lines breaking is definitely a thing and oil can catch fire (although usually not easily).

I just wonder what proportion of the ICE fires these days actually has nothing to do with the fuel.
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #88 on: December 10, 2023, 09:12:48 am »
Quote
My main point was that cars burning up after accidents was rarely seen, whereas it is much more common now.
It is very evident when you have been around as long as me.

Seen is the keyword. These days we have video recording on our phones and the ability to share it with others. This has caused people to think things happen more than they used to. I got off facebook partly as it was feeding into my anxiety, seeing video of stuff being stolen to video from disasters around the world.

There is going to be a certain amount of sh*t stirring going on with Tesla as if does have parts of the car industry worried as it's gone from a nothing to somthing very quickly and caught a lot of people out. They changed tactics as electric cars were marketed at eco friendly loons/nerds and Tesla changed that and made it ok to own a car becuase it was fast and innovative. I can't afford to get into it so I am not overly interested but I am still hesitant at times as some people just love to spread the word of the new Steve Jobs without thinking is this actually a good idea for the rest of us.

This has been my Sunday morning rambling, I will now go find a cup of Tea and try and do somthing productive. Oooh eBay...
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #89 on: December 10, 2023, 09:54:12 am »
4 wheel steering, the authentic ultimate version:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JXD9c3DZw8o
That's just yet another concept though. You can implement all sorts of weird shit on those because it does not need to actually work IRL or have sensible cost.

Cost and mechanical complexity are probably why we don't really see it much any more. Torque vectoring seems to be the preferred method nowadays, along with boosted power assist at parking speeds.
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #90 on: December 10, 2023, 10:52:41 am »
Door handles? Where? Only inside?
How do firefighters open it if you're injured or unconscious?
Break the window.
It may be a surprise for you but in modern cars doors get automatically locked when driving. So outer handle is absolutely useless unless it gets automatically unlocked after the accident, and it likely won't if crash was serious or car does not have post accident unlocking feature.
Most modern cars will detect when an accident is happening, and while for a human that's an incomprehensible short time, for the electronics, servos, and motors that's an eternity to still do things. Some modern cars will do things like activate the brakes, tilt seats away from the side, tension the seat-belts before there's even an impact, pull away the steering wheel column, etc. So I wouldn't be surprised if unlocking the doors and trunk is part of such a system.
I think Teslas also blow a pyrofuse to isolate the battery pack in an accident
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Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #91 on: December 10, 2023, 12:05:14 pm »
Door handles? Where? Only inside?
How do firefighters open it if you're injured or unconscious?
Break the window.
It may be a surprise for you but in modern cars doors get automatically locked when driving. So outer handle is absolutely useless unless it gets automatically unlocked after the accident, and it likely won't if crash was serious or car does not have post accident unlocking feature.
Most modern cars will detect when an accident is happening, and while for a human that's an incomprehensible short time, for the electronics, servos, and motors that's an eternity to still do things. Some modern cars will do things like activate the brakes, tilt seats away from the side, tension the seat-belts before there's even an impact, pull away the steering wheel column, etc. So I wouldn't be surprised if unlocking the doors and trunk is part of such a system.
From what I found:
Quote
Model S unlocks all doors, the trunk, and extends all door handles.
Quote
It's also widely implemented. FCA has an accident response system that unlocks the power door locks as long as power remains intact for the split second it takes to unlock them. Volkswagen and Mercedes systems also unlock all the doors in the event of an accident. Ford and Lincoln's automatic door unlocking system is on a six second delay. This allows the doors to be locked for longer if there's a secondary crash, but then there's the question of power afterwards. Honda's system doesn't unlock any doors automatically. GM says that given a crash of "sufficient severity," the doors will unlock; they are also meant to never lock during or after airbag deployment.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #92 on: December 10, 2023, 05:05:29 pm »
4 wheel steering, the authentic ultimate version:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JXD9c3DZw8o

No need to overcomplicate it; just add a fifth wheel to pivot...
 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #93 on: December 11, 2023, 12:07:52 am »
Yeah that's due stainless steel springiness, makes it complicated to get pressed into the desired shape, it always bounces back a little bit.

https://www.justcars.com.au/news-and-reviews/feature-stainless-steel-fords/888032
 
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Offline langwadt

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #94 on: December 11, 2023, 12:14:56 am »
Yeah that's due stainless steel springiness, makes it complicated to get pressed into the desired shape, it always bounces back a little bit.

all steel has some spring back that has to be accounted for when bending and pressing
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #95 on: December 11, 2023, 03:12:04 am »
It's not even usual austenitic sheet stainless steel you'd think, and that wouldn't be bulletproof. It's a cold rolled martensitic high strength stuff.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2023, 03:14:19 am by wraper »
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #96 on: December 11, 2023, 06:37:34 am »
It's not even usual austenitic sheet stainless steel you'd think, and that wouldn't be bulletproof. It's a cold rolled martensitic high strength stuff.

It's big boy stainless steel.
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #97 on: December 11, 2023, 03:51:49 pm »
At about 24 minutes they start showing and discussing how the thing is built. They start showing electronics at 39 minutes. Power electronics at 43:10.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2023, 04:20:17 pm by wraper »
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #98 on: December 11, 2023, 05:21:43 pm »

Drive by wire, for instance, allowing to tailor the steering ratio depending to speed.

This has been tried before, and does not work
All the reviews I've seen seem to disagree, though seems more of  "fine once you get used to it" than "must-have feature"
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #99 on: December 11, 2023, 05:23:39 pm »
At about 24 minutes they start showing and discussing how the thing is built. They start showing electronics at 39 minutes. Power electronics at 43:10.


That power converter is impressive - 11kW bidirectional AC charging and 3kW DC/DC conversion on a pretty compact assembly.
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #100 on: December 11, 2023, 07:17:05 pm »
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #101 on: December 11, 2023, 07:50:30 pm »


Even if it was only to offend people like you, it's is an excellent reason to do it ;D

I'm 99% certain Cybertruck exists for trolling. The whole design looks like it's drawn by a 4-year old, and that's exactly the right thing to do, given the ages where all cars look the same. Besides, the whole safety discussion is irrelevant. They cater for the segment of psychopaths who classically drive vehicles with even worse visibility, significantly so if you look at the comparisons. I am never going to buy it, but I'm totally enjoying the fact it exists and the amount of butt pain it's creating. Plus it's an interesting and useful experiment in engineering which creates many useful results that can be later utilized in cars that make more sense. You don't want to do such experimental stuff in conventional shape, bought by conventional people who expect conventional behavior.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2023, 07:53:10 pm by Siwastaja »
 
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #102 on: December 12, 2023, 10:53:56 am »
You think I'm offended by it? No, I'm merely incredulous that anyone other than Musk and his equally deluded fanbois think that it's a good idea. I am metaphorically SMH, but it takes more than the comical antics of a few narcissistic fantasists to offend me.
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #103 on: December 12, 2023, 01:03:26 pm »
Well, if people are interested, buy it, so that it produces at least some revenue, allowing the business to run, then it seems like an excellent idea to me. If it fails to sell in high enough numbers, then it was worth trying. In either case, it clearly is a test subject for stuff like 4-wheel steering, using stainless steel, and probably much much more I don't know about as I haven't looked into it closely. It has been many decades with very little fresh innovation in automotive. I want that to stop that trend and celebrate everyone who has guts to do something unique, even if I don't personally want that thing.

Also don't project your own attitudes into others; the fact Elon Musk makes you emotional as some kind of anti-fanboy, doesn't mean that those who disagree with you are Elon Musk fanboys.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2023, 01:05:09 pm by Siwastaja »
 
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Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #104 on: December 13, 2023, 04:50:30 am »
https://youtu.be/9ll2_BDZpI4

Adding this to add some more to the discussion

 
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Offline georges80

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #105 on: December 13, 2023, 05:38:09 am »
Lots of videos that compare a direct hit into a solid wall (the cyber truck) and then videos of other pickups hitting partial structures. If you are going to compare apples to apples please do so, otherwise it's all clickbait.

I think the cyber truck is for 'special people', but having a son that works at T and has been involved in a bunch of crash testing (5 star stuff), he has a different knowledge of the tests and what is actually occurring in the tests and the actual crash data, G forces, internal structure etc etc.

He finds the armchair stuff quite amusing - the clickbait youtube stuff and a bunch of forum gossip is not engineering. Please do not assume that because Musk has certain personaility 'traits' that there aren't competent engineers that know what they are doing working on the products there.

And no, I'm not a fanboy and happily drive my ICE 4wd and will continue to do so.

Anyhow, carry on.

cheers,
george.
 
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #106 on: December 13, 2023, 11:13:45 am »
Well, if people are interested, buy it, so that it produces at least some revenue, allowing the business to run, then it seems like an excellent idea to me. If it fails to sell in high enough numbers, then it was worth trying. In either case, it clearly is a test subject for stuff like 4-wheel steering, using stainless steel, and probably much much more I don't know about as I haven't looked into it closely. It has been many decades with very little fresh innovation in automotive. I want that to stop that trend and celebrate everyone who has guts to do something unique, even if I don't personally want that thing.

Also don't project your own attitudes into others; the fact Elon Musk makes you emotional as some kind of anti-fanboy, doesn't mean that those who disagree with you are Elon Musk fanboys.

You're reading a little too much into my comments. Not much I can do about that; I'm not about to issue a long list of disclaimers with every post.

The main purpose and benefit of the Cybertruck seems to me to be to generate publicity for Musk.
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Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #107 on: December 14, 2023, 06:20:55 am »
Lots of videos that compare a direct hit into a solid wall (the cyber truck) and then videos of other pickups hitting partial structures. If you are going to compare apples to apples please do so, otherwise it's all clickbait.

I think the cyber truck is for 'special people', but having a son that works at T and has been involved in a bunch of crash testing (5 star stuff), he has a different knowledge of the tests and what is actually occurring in the tests and the actual crash data, G forces, internal structure etc etc.

He finds the armchair stuff quite amusing - the clickbait youtube stuff and a bunch of forum gossip is not engineering. Please do not assume that because Musk has certain personaility 'traits' that there aren't competent engineers that know what they are doing working on the products there.

And no, I'm not a fanboy and happily drive my ICE 4wd and will continue to do so.

Anyhow, carry on.

cheers,
george.

In the video I posted further on the timeline they have apples to apples test. Full wall Tesla Cybertruck Vs F150 Lightning. Results are similar. T bone test the Lightning lifts their left side to close 45⁰ while the Tesla stays mostly unmovable.

Jump to 1:50.

I'm not also a fanboy, I drive what suits my needs, not hype. I just wanted to add something more since I also saw the full frontal tests and a comparison of other trucks doing overlapping frontal test and it was not apple to apple. This one had the first apple to apple test, so I thought it would be relevant for the discussion.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2023, 06:24:30 am by Black Phoenix »
 

Offline MT

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #108 on: December 14, 2023, 03:47:59 pm »
Beyond the weight, it's hard to really see a market for this in Europe. Time will tell.
But the weight itself raises questions (especially considering that the EU is going to raise the bar, as wraper mentioned) in terms of efficiency.

There is a market alright, pompous woke transgender dentists , nasty stiff upper lip lawyers, dumb azz politicians who want to "politically signal"
they are indeed "imaginary" green while driving to airport to take private jet to Cop28 UAE and Davos WEF climatechange meeting etc.
There is always a "invented" market for dumb ass products, kitchen ice cream machines, instant bread baking machines from Philips are other famous devices.
 

Online Marco

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #109 on: December 14, 2023, 04:46:43 pm »
At this point Elon is poison for virtue signallers of any sort except trolling nihilists who want to piss off all sides.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2023, 04:48:40 pm by Marco »
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #110 on: December 14, 2023, 05:24:43 pm »
Beyond the weight, it's hard to really see a market for this in Europe. Time will tell.
But the weight itself raises questions (especially considering that the EU is going to raise the bar, as wraper mentioned) in terms of efficiency.

There is a market alright, pompous woke transgender dentists , nasty stiff upper lip lawyers, dumb azz politicians who want to "politically signal"
they are indeed "imaginary" green while driving to airport to take private jet to Cop28 UAE and Davos WEF climatechange meeting etc.
There is always a "invented" market for dumb ass products, kitchen ice cream machines, instant bread baking machines from Philips are other famous devices.

doesn't all the wokes hate Elon now because he doesn't censor twitter/X how they want?

 

Offline vad

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #111 on: December 14, 2023, 10:44:13 pm »
Well, if people are interested, buy it, so that it produces at least some revenue, allowing the business to run, then it seems like an excellent idea to me. If it fails to sell in high enough numbers, then it was worth trying.
CyberTruck has been sold out for many years ahead. According to drive.com.au, it may take four to five years for Tesla to clear its pre-order backlog.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #112 on: December 14, 2023, 11:06:35 pm »
Beyond the weight, it's hard to really see a market for this in Europe. Time will tell.
But the weight itself raises questions (especially considering that the EU is going to raise the bar, as wraper mentioned) in terms of efficiency.

There is a market alright, pompous woke transgender dentists , nasty stiff upper lip lawyers, dumb azz politicians who want to "politically signal"
they are indeed "imaginary" green while driving to airport to take private jet to Cop28 UAE and Davos WEF climatechange meeting etc.
There is always a "invented" market for dumb ass products, kitchen ice cream machines, instant bread baking machines from Philips are other famous devices.

doesn't all the wokes hate Elon now because he doesn't censor twitter/X how they want?

Don't all the "anti-wokes" love Elon now because he censors twitter/x how they want?
They used to hate him!

I always thought he was a twat, so I am an "equal opportunity" nasty old man!
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #113 on: December 14, 2023, 11:23:57 pm »
Well, if people are interested, buy it, so that it produces at least some revenue, allowing the business to run, then it seems like an excellent idea to me. If it fails to sell in high enough numbers, then it was worth trying.
CyberTruck has been sold out for many years ahead. According to drive.com.au, it may take four to five years for Tesla to clear its pre-order backlog.

Would be interesting to see the typical "profile" of the buyers, if there is any.
 
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Offline Psi

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #114 on: December 15, 2023, 11:24:17 am »
I'm really not all that concerned about steer by wire.
It's really just a question about how redundantly it was implemented, the concept is fine and already used in so many other industries for things.

I've not looked at how its done in Cybertruck but if it has two independent motors, 2 independent steering wheel angle sensors and one system gets power from the 48V battery while the other gets power from an always-on feed from the primary battery. Then that would seem pretty robust to me. I guess the difficulty with only 2 systems is knowing which one is faulty and so which one needs to be disabled to reduce the risk of them both fighting each other.

As far as looks go, I think it looks quite cool.
But the only way I could ever see myself owning one would be to take on camping trips and only if I had money to burn.
It seems pretty impractical and way to big for everything else i might want a vehicle for.
Perhaps if Tesla come out with a smaller version of it it might make more sense to have as a utility vehicle in NZ. It's just too big otherwise.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2023, 11:30:45 am by Psi »
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Offline Bud

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #115 on: December 15, 2023, 01:26:11 pm »
CyberTruck has been sold out for many years ahead. According to drive.com.au, it may take four to five years for Tesla to clear its pre-order backlog.
Yes, I wonder how many of the buyers died and will die waiting for delivery.
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Offline vad

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #116 on: December 15, 2023, 07:53:40 pm »
CyberTruck has been sold out for many years ahead. According to drive.com.au, it may take four to five years for Tesla to clear its pre-order backlog.
Yes, I wonder how many of the buyers died and will die waiting for delivery.
Let's do a ballpark estimation…

With over 2 million pre-orders, mostly in the USA, and the death rate in the 25-64 age group at 529 deaths per year per 100,000 population in the US, assuming an average waiting time of 4 years, and assuming the majority of buyers are in the age 25-64 group and evenly distributed by age, the number of people who paid a $250 refundable deposit but would die waiting for the delivery is on the order of magnitude of 42,000.
 

Offline lezginka_kabardinka

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2023, 02:11:27 am »
2 million Tesla vehicles have been RECALLED. Google it.

EVs are just a pipe dream.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2023, 02:24:13 am »
2 million Tesla vehicles have been RECALLED. Google it.

EVs are just a pipe dream.
"Recall" = OTA firmware update to monitor drivers more strictly to prevent an abuse of autopilot. Also it has nothing to do with EV as such.  :palm:. BTW how many ICE cars were recalled due to potential airbag explosion? Last number I've seen was 67 million. But I doubt manufacturers/dealerships and vehicle owners in Russia really bothered to replace them. But I would not call ICE to be a dead due to that, especially because it actually has nothing to do with ICE.
EDIT: just googled that Russian АвтоВАЗ and УАЗ didn't even announce a recall despite using them too.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2023, 02:51:35 am by wraper »
 
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Offline Psi

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #119 on: December 17, 2023, 12:21:32 pm »
Hm.. A "recall" that's just an OTA update to add extra annoyances to the cars interface just to account for a small percentage of the population that's too stupid to use autopilot correctly without it.

Can't say I agree with this nanny state BS.

If a person cannot understand the simple concept that they are fully responsible for everything the car does while on autopilot then they probably shouldn't be on the road in the first place.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2023, 12:24:49 pm by Psi »
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Offline daqq

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #120 on: December 17, 2023, 12:45:08 pm »
Oh good, an oversized guillotine on wheels. Just what I always wanted.
Believe it or not, pointy haired people do exist!
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Online Marco

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #121 on: December 17, 2023, 04:19:33 pm »
Hm.. A "recall" that's just an OTA update to add extra annoyances to the cars interface just to account for a small percentage of the population that's too stupid to use autopilot correctly without it.

Too human, Tesla got off light for now. This might just save them from themselves. As I've said before, Tesla is just one dead policeman or emergency service worker away from total disaster. They are lucky it has been mostly occupants and poor people the media wasn't interested in which were killed up till now.

You can bring up statistics all you want, but if the pre-existing autopilot killed some EMT doing a rescue on the highway you wouldn't want to own Tesla stock. Suddenly most people would start agreeing with me that it is just too incompatible with human nature.
 

Offline schmitt triggerTopic starter

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #122 on: December 17, 2023, 04:46:55 pm »
One thing is certain about Tesla in general and Elon in particular: it elicits heated discussion and wide controversy. It is not a ho-hum automotive company like Fiat, General Motors or Nissan. Well other than that Goshn scandal.

This happens when you are a disruptive company. Have to give them credit at least for that much. 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2023, 04:48:26 pm by schmitt trigger »
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #123 on: December 17, 2023, 05:20:24 pm »
2 million Tesla vehicles have been RECALLED. Google it.

EVs are just a pipe dream.

Don't worry.  For every hydrocarbon molecule the West doesn't buy from you, China and India will buy a dozen. 

You might not like the price, though.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #124 on: December 17, 2023, 11:40:31 pm »
Hm.. A "recall" that's just an OTA update to add extra annoyances to the cars interface just to account for a small percentage of the population that's too stupid to use autopilot correctly without it.

Can't say I agree with this nanny state BS.

If a person cannot understand the simple concept that they are fully responsible for everything the car does while on autopilot then they probably shouldn't be on the road in the first place.
A great step forward would be not to call it "autopilot"!
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #125 on: December 17, 2023, 11:57:15 pm »
It has been many decades with very little fresh innovation in automotive.
True, but then again: what can you actually innovate where it comes to cars? Aerodynamics & safety have a single optimum shape so all cars look alike nowadays. On top of that, people gotten afraid of colors so all cars are black, grey or white. Sure, new things like touchscreens have been tried but failed. Radios got rotating knobs for the volume control back after up/down buttons where the 'hype du jour' for a few years in the early 2000s. At some point a product is as good as it gets. After all, what can you improve on a hammer?
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #126 on: December 18, 2023, 12:10:05 am »
Hm.. A "recall" that's just an OTA update to add extra annoyances to the cars interface just to account for a small percentage of the population that's too stupid to use autopilot correctly without it.

Can't say I agree with this nanny state BS.

If a person cannot understand the simple concept that they are fully responsible for everything the car does while on autopilot then they probably shouldn't be on the road in the first place.
A great step forward would be not to call it "autopilot"!

Well, "autopilot" may sound like it means "autonomous" for typical car drivers, but the word has been used in the transportation industry in other types of vehicles for a long time with not much ambiguity. It never meant that the pilot was not responsible and that the autopilot could be left on unattended. So the same should be for cars. But of course, marketing doesn't like that.

It should just be an extension of what's been around for several decades already, like speed regulators/"cruise control". Problem being that the more is automated, and the less the driver will be sollicited, so the less they'll be alert. The reason it works in professional transportation is that pilots are doing their job, they are not just "consumers" of a vehicle. Also, the fact they are rarely alone helps - there are always colleagues around if one person fails.
 
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #127 on: December 18, 2023, 05:24:07 am »
A great step forward would be not to call it "autopilot"!

I think the term is fine. Tesla's system is already more capable, relatively speaking, than what is classically meant by an "autopilot". (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot if unfamiliar with the term.) However, Tesla has clearly failed to communicate (quite obviously on purpose) what they have is not autonomous driving or even a prototype of it; "unofficially" overselling the feature is the problem, not the name which is really the most honest part of it IMHO.

True, but then again: what can you actually innovate where it comes to cars? Aerodynamics & safety have a single optimum shape so all cars look alike nowadays. On top of that, people gotten afraid of colors so all cars are black, grey or white. Sure, new things like touchscreens have been tried but failed. Radios got rotating knobs for the volume control back after up/down buttons where the 'hype du jour' for a few years in the early 2000s. At some point a product is as good as it gets. After all, what can you improve on a hammer?

There is more than a single dimension "objectively good" - "objectively bad". Cars appeal to emotions, and just doing something differently enough has value in itself. Sure, it's not for the majority, and that's fine. It's good to have choices. Another point is, thinking that we are at an optimum is prone to go wrong. Experimentation is needed to see what happens.

Optimizations often get stuck in local minimum we don't understand being local, unless we do random and sometimes weird perturbations. For example: despite being micro-optimized for aerodynamics, modern cars have worse aerodynamics than 20 years ago. And I don't mean the drag coefficient, that's only half of the equation; it has been optimized from decent to even better during last 30 years. But frontal area is the other half and it has been increasing with the SUV bullshit. Even non-SUVs have been turning into half-SUVs. And as always, I like having options, so SUVs, too, but I don't like every car being SUV-ish. Tesla Model3 is a fresh exception to this trend, which is also why it gets so excellent energy consumption numbers.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #128 on: December 18, 2023, 10:11:51 am »
It never meant that the pilot was not responsible and that the autopilot could be left on unattended.

I hate to say it, but the movie 'Airplane' is probably to blame for setting up an incorrect definition for the word autopilot long ago. Some people obviously took it seriously  :-DD
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #129 on: December 18, 2023, 11:10:40 am »
Hm.. A "recall" that's just an OTA update to add extra annoyances to the cars interface just to account for a small percentage of the population that's too stupid to use autopilot correctly without it.

Can't say I agree with this nanny state BS.

If a person cannot understand the simple concept that they are fully responsible for everything the car does while on autopilot then they probably shouldn't be on the road in the first place.
A great step forward would be not to call it "autopilot"!

Well, "autopilot" may sound like it means "autonomous" for typical car drivers, but the word has been used in the transportation industry in other types of vehicles for a long time with not much ambiguity. It never meant that the pilot was not responsible and that the autopilot could be left on unattended. So the same should be for cars. But of course, marketing doesn't like that.

It should just be an extension of what's been around for several decades already, like speed regulators/"cruise control". Problem being that the more is automated, and the less the driver will be sollicited, so the less they'll be alert. The reason it works in professional transportation is that pilots are doing their job, they are not just "consumers" of a vehicle. Also, the fact they are rarely alone helps - there are always colleagues around if one person fails.

The original autopilots used of things like DC3s were quite limited, but modern ones are quite a lot more capable.
Also, in the public mind, there is probably a lot of blurring between them & Automatic Landing Systems & the like.
A more descriptive name for what the Tesla ones do (& is used by other manufacturers) is "Driver Assist".
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #130 on: December 18, 2023, 12:55:48 pm »
Considering that becuase of America cars with cruise control had to come with a warning that you must remain in your seat, I remeber talked of a person putting cruise on and going to the back to make food and crashed as the assumed it would take care of that but I can't be sure that isnt just a dig at the American culture.

So I am surprised that Tesla has been allowed to use the term based on the common interpretation of it. But I have never looked at the manuals to see what it says. Though I see many videos of people going on about the self driving nature of these cars and that doesn't help with the muddy waters we are already in.

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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #131 on: December 18, 2023, 02:27:10 pm »
descriptive name for what the Tesla ones do (& is used by other manufacturers) is "Driver Assist".

Fair enough, but "driver assist" is something every manufacturer has and means stuff like adaptive cruise control and maybe keep-on-the-lane (no overtaking or anything). What Tesla has is in awkward position: significantly more advanced than most "driver assist" systems, but still way too far from true autonomous driving. It's hard for the marketing folks to honestly sell without either under- or overselling it.
 

Offline MT

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #132 on: December 18, 2023, 02:59:38 pm »
A great step forward would be not to call it "autopilot"!

I think the term is fine. Tesla's system is already more capable, relatively speaking, than what is classically meant by an "autopilot". (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot if unfamiliar with the term.) However, Tesla has clearly failed to communicate (quite obviously on purpose) what they have is not autonomous driving or even a prototype of it; "unofficially" overselling the feature is the problem, not the name which is really the most honest part of it IMHO.

A German court ruled that Tesla cannot talk about 'full potential for autonomous driving' or 'Autopilot' in its ads in the country.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33338288/germany-tesla-autonomous-driving-court-ruling/

Still Tesla German owners manual 2023 talks about auto pilot:
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/de_de/GUID-101D1BF5-52D2-469A-A57D-E7230BBEE94B.html

Tesla appealed but was overruled 2022:
https://teslamag.de/news/exklusiv-web-werbung-tesla-autopilot-fsd-option-deutschland-zulaessig-51722

Tesla forced to buyback cars:
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/autopilot-makes-tesla-buy-back-another-ev-in-germany-it-s-the-third-one-until-now-195163.html

A pilot are not requested by Boeing/Airbus to "always hold their hands on the steering" when autopilot is on. It is well known a jet these days can take off, fly and land all by it self with no intervention of a hominid or monkey.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2023, 03:08:30 pm by MT »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #133 on: December 18, 2023, 03:08:17 pm »
Stainless steel panel production.

 

Offline tom66

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #134 on: December 18, 2023, 03:10:01 pm »
Considering that becuase of America cars with cruise control had to come with a warning that you must remain in your seat, I remeber talked of a person putting cruise on and going to the back to make food and crashed as the assumed it would take care of that but I can't be sure that isnt just a dig at the American culture.

That's literally a skit in Anchorman 2...


One of the funniest moments in the film IMO.  The setup for the following carnage is perfect, even if the whole thing is entirely predictable.  But it's kinda low-brow comedy in general so... yeah, don't expect much more.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #135 on: December 18, 2023, 03:17:25 pm »
A pilot are not requested by Boeing/Airbus to "always hold their hands on the steering" when autopilot is on.
There are no rapidly appearing obstacles you need to rapidly steer around either. Must never be left unobserved as airplane autopilot may disengage or malfunction if sensors are not reading right.
Quote
It is well known a jet these days can take off, fly and land all by it self with no intervention of a hominid or monkey.
Again, must happen under human control and with parameters set first, involves a lot of human work. Won't happen by itself, you cannot just set destination airport and expect autopilot to take off and land.
 
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Offline MT

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #136 on: December 18, 2023, 03:35:03 pm »
There are no rapidly appearing obstacles you need to rapidly steer around either. Must never be left unobserved as airplane autopilot may disengage or malfunction if sensors are not reading right.
Ever heard of pilots and autopilots steering straight into mountains, ground and other aircrafts?

Quote
Again, must happen under human control and with parameters set first, involves a lot of human work. Won't happen by itself, you cannot just set destination airport and expect autopilot to take off and land.
It can, military have done it for decades and numerous times been very close to mid air collisions with regular passanger jets etc.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2023/02/26/pilotless-autonomous-self-flying-planes/

« Last Edit: December 18, 2023, 03:37:06 pm by MT »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Tesla Cybertruck
« Reply #137 on: December 18, 2023, 03:53:55 pm »
There are no rapidly appearing obstacles you need to rapidly steer around either. Must never be left unobserved as airplane autopilot may disengage or malfunction if sensors are not reading right.
Ever heard of pilots and autopilots steering straight into mountains, ground and other aircrafts?
Ever heard about straw man? Those are not rapidly appearing obstacles, and you cannot steer around them in a split second. They happen due to planning mistakes and other poorly made decisions rather than being unable to rapidly steer around. Flying a passenger or cargo airplane is a slow methodical process. If a pilot sees the need to steer rapidly, very likely it's already way too late.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2023, 03:55:47 pm by wraper »
 


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