The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices

[tooki]

"The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices."  -  that's your explanation right there, it's all about the money...

Except that this assumption is simply not true. Lightning cables, whether Apple or third party, whether high quality or el cheap, cost about the same as equivalent USB-C cables.

[SilverSolder]

"The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices."  -  that's your explanation right there, it's all about the money...

Except that this assumption is simply not true. Lightning cables, whether Apple or third party, whether high quality or el cheap, cost about the same as equivalent USB-C cables.

The key is,  who is selling them? 

Third parties cannot just start selling products covered by Apple intellectual property...   (in principle, they cannot sell USB things without paying their dues either).

[tom66]

They pay a licencing fee to use the Lightning crypto chip, it's about 2% of the retail price (used to be $4 so that explains the discrepancy in prices historically).

I'm not sure how much the actual chip costs, presumably they're supplied by one or more third parties.

[SilverSolder]

They pay a licencing fee to use the Lightning crypto chip, it's about 2% of the retail price (used to be $4 so that explains the discrepancy in prices historically).

I'm not sure how much the actual chip costs, presumably they're supplied by one or more third parties.

2% of the retail price means something like 10% of the profit margin, assuming 20% margin on retail.   Nice work if you can get it?

[Sherlock Holmes]

What's Apple's problem anyway, why are they playing victim?

Aaaand I can already see we’ll be dealing with a reality-avoiding Apple hater.

USB-C (USB 3) handles up to 640 Mbps, Apple's (effectively USB 2) is 480 Mbps.

You need to read up on USB-C anew.

USB-C can, but does not have to be, USB 3, and USB 3 can be up to 20Gbps. USB-C can also be USB 4 (40Gbps), Thunderbolt 3 or 4 (also 40Gbps), or just USB 2 (480Mbps).

iPad pro already uses USB-C, USB offers greater power delivery.

Correct. As an iPad Pro owner, I’d love to see iPhone move to USB-C so I can once again use the same cables for my phone, tablet, and earbuds.

The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices.

Utter nonsense. Lightning cables don’t cost any more than the old Dock connector cables it replaced, nor any more than the USB-C cables that are replacing Lightning.

Apple are and always have been about presentation rather than functionality, external design rather than internal.

And there we have it, more reality-avoiding Apple hatred. The reason Apple has been so spectacularly successful is that beneath the style, there is real substance. Their products work well — really well — and that’s why people buy them. And that’s always been the reason people buy them.

We could argue this all day, but making assumptions about me is no substitute for facts. Even if I was a "reality avoiding Apple hater" that wouldn't invalidate my statements, even statements from a prejudiced person can be true.

For the record I don't "hate" Apple, I do however regard them as technologically not very innovative and have done for many decades. Steve Jobs was technologically vacuous, always prattling on about appearance and styling, an so on. If that stupid cable is an example of their innovation skills, then I'm afraid that I am going to be underwhelmed.

[tooki]

We could argue this all day, but making assumptions about me is no substitute for facts. Even if I was a "reality avoiding Apple hater" that wouldn't invalidate my statements, even statements from a prejudiced person can be true.

That’s true. But this isn’t such a case, since almost all of your claims are provably factually incorrect. I went through them one by one.

[tooki]

"The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices."  -  that's your explanation right there, it's all about the money...

Except that this assumption is simply not true. Lightning cables, whether Apple or third party, whether high quality or el cheap, cost about the same as equivalent USB-C cables.

The key is,  who is selling them? 

How so?

As I said: in every category of cable (original, quality third party, and el-cheapo third party), Lightning cables are sold at comparable cost to USB-C.

Third parties cannot just start selling products covered by Apple intellectual property...   (in principle, they cannot sell USB things without paying their dues either).

Quality cable manufacturers license them (IIRC this also means they source the Lightning plugs from Apple, which makes them available under the MFi program), as do many (but definitely not all) budget cable companies. The others simply use clone plugs and either leave off the MFi logos, or use the logos fraudulently.

But the upshot is: for any given quality level of cable, you basically have your choice of Lightning or USB-C at the same (or extremely similar) price. There’s absolutely no substance to the claims of Lightning cables having “stupid prices” compared to USB-C.

For example, Apple 1m cables cost $19, whether USB-A to Lightning, USB-C to Lightning, or USB-C to USB-C.

Anker, a top quality third party, charges $14.99 for their entry level 6’ cable, whether USB-A to Lightning or USB-C to USB-C, and $17.99 for USB-C to Lightning.

And on AliExpress, any of those cable types can be had from about $1 upwards, in whatever quality that gets you…

This is my point: Apple isn’t getting rich off of cables, at least, no more so than anyone else is.

[Sherlock Holmes]

What's Apple's problem anyway, why are they playing victim?

Aaaand I can already see we’ll be dealing with a reality-avoiding Apple hater.

How you interpret what I said is your concern, Apple's complaining reflects the company's concerns not customer or consumers or the environment. Their eagerness to exploit the impoverished labor markets in China is sufficient to establish that. Claiming that a single vendor with a monopoly on an interconnection technology is "good for consumers" is untrue.

USB-C (USB 3) handles up to 640 Mbps, Apple's (effectively USB 2) is 480 Mbps.

You need to read up on USB-C anew.

USB-C can, but does not have to be, USB 3, and USB 3 can be up to 20Gbps. USB-C can also be USB 4 (40Gbps), Thunderbolt 3 or 4 (also 40Gbps), or just USB 2 (480Mbps).

I'd meant to type MB/sec not Mb/sec. The point though is that based on a quantitative comparison the old "lightning" cable/connector/system is technically inferior.

iPad pro already uses USB-C, USB offers greater power delivery.

Correct. As an iPad Pro owner, I’d love to see iPhone move to USB-C so I can once again use the same cables for my phone, tablet, and earbuds.

Well thanks to the EU you won't have long to wait.

The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices.

Utter nonsense. Lightning cables don’t cost any more than the old Dock connector cables it replaced, nor any more than the USB-C cables that are replacing Lightning.

A 1m long lightening/USB cable costs 19 USD on the Apple store, a 0.5m lightning to USB also costs the same. A high quality braid covered 1m USB to USB-C connector costs 4.5 dollars, the price for a pair being around 9 dollars, there are a huge number of suppliers to choose from (aka "good for consumers").

The only nonsense I can see here, is the claim by Apple that paying four times more for a short cable is good for consumers.

Apple are and always have been about presentation rather than functionality, external design rather than internal.

And there we have it, more reality-avoiding Apple hatred. The reason Apple has been so spectacularly successful is that beneath the style, there is real substance. Their products work well — really well — and that’s why people buy them. And that’s always been the reason people buy them.

Even if I did "hate" Apple, what of it?

You'll need to explain what you mean wen you refer to me as "reality avoiding", I disagree with you, is that what you mean? People buy things for a host of reasons, in Apple's case presentation is a large part of their appeal and always has been. Steve Jobs is on record as emphasizing time and again how products should look over how they should perform. He was never a technology oriented individual, pioneer or innovator.

[Sherlock Holmes]

"The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices."  -  that's your explanation right there, it's all about the money...

Except that this assumption is simply not true. Lightning cables, whether Apple or third party, whether high quality or el cheap, cost about the same as equivalent USB-C cables.

The key is,  who is selling them? 

How so?

As I said: in every category of cable (original, quality third party, and el-cheapo third party), Lightning cables are sold at comparable cost to USB-C.

May I?

Apple’s 1m USB-C to Lightning Cable, which allows faster charging for compatible iPhones and iPads, has been reduced in price. When the cable debuted, the original price was $25 for the 1m version, and $35 for the 2m version.

and

It appears that last month, Apple quietly dropped the price of the 1m USB-C to Lighting Cable by $6, going from $25 to $19. This change comes amid rumors that new iPhones will drop the USB-A-equipped Lightning to USB Cables in favor of USB-C cables that are able to facilitate faster charging.

Taken from here.

[Monkeh]

A 1m long lightening/USB cable costs 19 USD on the Apple store, a 0.5m lightning to USB also costs the same. A high quality braid covered 1m USB to USB-C connector costs 4.5 dollars, the price for a pair being around 9 dollars, there are a huge number of suppliers to choose from (aka "good for consumers").

Made by.. wait, who are they? Shenzhen Wuyishi Technology Co.,Ltd? Will they be around next month?

Let's look at a USB-A to USB-C from a reputable name, shall we? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07213D35X

Yes, that one has all the signals present, so you don't have to play 'guess what this cable does'..

Sorry, was the 'high quality braid' an important factor? Okay: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GN0M6NE

[Sherlock Holmes]

A 1m long lightening/USB cable costs 19 USD on the Apple store, a 0.5m lightning to USB also costs the same. A high quality braid covered 1m USB to USB-C connector costs 4.5 dollars, the price for a pair being around 9 dollars, there are a huge number of suppliers to choose from (aka "good for consumers").

Made by.. wait, who are they? Shenzhen Wuyishi Technology Co.,Ltd? Will they be around next month?

Let's look at a USB-A to USB-C from a reputable name, shall we? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07213D35X

Yes, that one has all the signals present, so you don't have to play 'guess what this cable does'..

Sorry, was the 'high quality braid' an important factor? Okay: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GN0M6NE

From Wikipedia: Anker Innovations

Anker Innovations Co., Ltd,[a] commonly known as Anker, is a Chinese electronics manufacturer based in Changsha, Hunan, China. The company's product range includes phone chargers, power banks, earbuds, headphones, speakers, data hubs, charging cables, torches, screen protectors, etc.

But there's more:

Purchased a cable from Anker in November 2021. Requested a replacement from Anker and they are refusing to send. Now I just want a refund and I'll buy a cable from a different company that honors their warranty.

and

The company makes cables for various phones. I provided proof of purchase and showed how their cables were defective. The cables, individually, don’t last more than 30-90 days. The pins on the lighting port connector corrode or some how burn off. I provided this in photo proof and the company asked me to cut the cables in half, without written guarantee they would replace them. Looking at ******’s reviews they seem to have a track record of poor customer service and product quality. I’d like the bbb to look into if they ask every customer to do this or is this only done on a case by case basis. This is a very odd thing to ask; seeing as no other iPhone cable I’ve had to warranty asked me to further destroy them; possibly voiding any warranty due to damage caused by me rather than defect

etc, etc, etc, from here: Better Business Bureau.

Note the corrosion complaint. I've seen that on cable's supplied by Apple, after some time there's a visible indication of wear, oxidation or corrosion and one can plug the device in expecting it to charge but it doesn't it just sits there until one grabs it in a hurry only to find it has no power, this is a problem with the Apple cables too, basically they're a joke.

[Monkeh]

Ah, a couple of bad reviews, problems with the connector type we're not discussing, and oh yes they're Chinese so let's pretend they're all the same, because casual racism is a good argument.

[Nominal Animal]

Ah, a couple of bad reviews, problems with the connector type we're not discussing, and oh yes they're Chinese so let's pretend they're all the same, because casual racism is a good argument.

Also, Anker's PowerLine II cables happen to be certified by Apple, and very well received (CNN review of another cable in the same PowerLine II product series that Monkeh linked to).

It doesn't mean all Anker cables are excellent, it only means they definitely can make excellent cables, and that PowerLine II in particular (due to Apple's MFi certification and review success) is likely a good choice.

[tooki]

What's Apple's problem anyway, why are they playing victim?

Aaaand I can already see we’ll be dealing with a reality-avoiding Apple hater.

How you interpret what I said is your concern, Apple's complaining reflects the company's concerns not customer or consumers or the environment. Their eagerness to exploit the impoverished labor markets in China is sufficient to establish that.

And here we go again with the ridiculously biased talk. Please, name an IT company that doesn’t buy cables in China.

There is always room for improvement in working conditions, but to shit on Apple for that is the height of hypocrisy, since no other major IT company even comes close to doing what Apple does in terms of enforcement. They routinely audit their suppliers (all the way down the supply chain) and dismiss ones that remain noncompliant with Apple’s terms, which go significantly beyond what local laws require.

Claiming that a single vendor with a monopoly on an interconnection technology is "good for consumers" is untrue.

Nobody has made that claim, including Apple. (Since lightning is not a “monopoly”, in that you can easily buy non-Apple lightning cables and accessories.)

USB-C (USB 3) handles up to 640 Mbps, Apple's (effectively USB 2) is 480 Mbps.

You need to read up on USB-C anew.

USB-C can, but does not have to be, USB 3, and USB 3 can be up to 20Gbps. USB-C can also be USB 4 (40Gbps), Thunderbolt 3 or 4 (also 40Gbps), or just USB 2 (480Mbps).

I'd meant to type MB/sec not Mb/sec. The point though is that based on a quantitative comparison the old "lightning" cable/connector/system is technically inferior.

Nobody has claimed otherwise. USB-C didn’t exist when Lightning came out, and there was absolutely no reason for a phone to need USB 3.0 at that time.

Lightning was invented because the USB connectors that existed at the time did not meet the needs Apple had for the iPhone.

It’s been a full 10 years since it came out. Of course technology has moved on, DUH!

A 1m long lightening/USB cable costs 19 USD on the Apple store, a 0.5m lightning to USB also costs the same. A high quality braid covered 1m USB to USB-C connector costs 4.5 dollars, the price for a pair being around 9 dollars, there are a huge number of suppliers to choose from (aka "good for consumers").

The only nonsense I can see here, is the claim by Apple that paying four times more for a short cable is good for consumers.

Irrelevant, since Apple is not the only vendor of Lightning cables. You can buy third party Lightning cables in EVERY price category from $1 garbage to $100 Monster Cable-esque nude virgins voodoo woo-woo BS.

My original point, which remains true, is that the claim that Lightning cables are “stupid expensive” is bullshit. I’ve proven it, others here have proven it.

Even if I did "hate" Apple, what of it?

Experience has taught me that Apple haters do not care about reality, and simply ignore and avoid anything that contradicts the anti-Apple narrative in their minds. Consequently, they have to employ dishonest arguments to “prove” their beliefs.

And you know what? You’ve proven me right once again. You’ve a) ignored my point, b) continue to bring apples-to-oranges comparisons that prove absolutely nothing, and c) bring in more irrelevant anti-Apple arguments (regardless of veracity) that have nothing to do with the question at hand.

Absolutely predictable, and quite maddening because your beliefs aren’t founded in facts, but in faith that Apple is evil, so facts don't sway you.

[tooki]

A 1m long lightening/USB cable costs 19 USD on the Apple store, a 0.5m lightning to USB also costs the same. A high quality braid covered 1m USB to USB-C connector costs 4.5 dollars, the price for a pair being around 9 dollars, there are a huge number of suppliers to choose from (aka "good for consumers").

Made by.. wait, who are they? Shenzhen Wuyishi Technology Co.,Ltd? Will they be around next month?

Let's look at a USB-A to USB-C from a reputable name, shall we? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07213D35X

Yes, that one has all the signals present, so you don't have to play 'guess what this cable does'..

Sorry, was the 'high quality braid' an important factor? Okay: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GN0M6NE

From Wikipedia: Anker Innovations

Anker Innovations Co., Ltd,[a] commonly known as Anker, is a Chinese electronics manufacturer based in Changsha, Hunan, China. The company's product range includes phone chargers, power banks, earbuds, headphones, speakers, data hubs, charging cables, torches, screen protectors, etc.

But there's more:

Purchased a cable from Anker in November 2021. Requested a replacement from Anker and they are refusing to send. Now I just want a refund and I'll buy a cable from a different company that honors their warranty.

and

The company makes cables for various phones. I provided proof of purchase and showed how their cables were defective. The cables, individually, don’t last more than 30-90 days. The pins on the lighting port connector corrode or some how burn off. I provided this in photo proof and the company asked me to cut the cables in half, without written guarantee they would replace them. Looking at ******’s reviews they seem to have a track record of poor customer service and product quality. I’d like the bbb to look into if they ask every customer to do this or is this only done on a case by case basis. This is a very odd thing to ask; seeing as no other iPhone cable I’ve had to warranty asked me to further destroy them; possibly voiding any warranty due to damage caused by me rather than defect

etc, etc, etc, from here: Better Business Bureau.

Note the corrosion complaint. I've seen that on cable's supplied by Apple, after some time there's a visible indication of wear, oxidation or corrosion and one can plug the device in expecting it to charge but it doesn't it just sits there until one grabs it in a hurry only to find it has no power, this is a problem with the Apple cables too, basically they're a joke.

So what? Anker is a company with a stellar reputation. That doesn’t mean 100% of customers will be happy, since that’s literally impossible.

That first linked Anker cable has a 4.5 star rating on 5700 reviews. That’s a pretty damned good sign that the rating isn’t an aberration.

And it’s a great example that Chinese companies can make great products if they choose to.

Note the corrosion complaint. I've seen that on cable's supplied by Apple, after some time there's a visible indication of wear, oxidation or corrosion and one can plug the device in expecting it to charge but it doesn't it just sits there until one grabs it in a hurry only to find it has no power, this is a problem with the Apple cables too, basically they're a joke.

Yep, corrosion on that one pin, especially after exposure to moisture or sweat, is a known failure mode. It’s some kind of galvanic corrosion. Of course, we don’t really see if similar corrosion happens to micro-USB and USB-C plugs that are exposed to moisture, since their pins are not visible. Conversely, we also know that micro-USB and USB-C each have known failure modes of their own. That’s how engineering works, dude.

[tszaboo]

Oh no, the horror.

What are we gonna do? Use the SAME cable to charge your laptop and your phone?

[Monkeh]

But the resident expert told us they'd never do it. We must be seeing things.

[MadTux]

Maybe they realized soldering unobtainium SSD chips into $̶5̶̶k̶ $8K Macbook Pros and serializing every part inside an Iphone is more profitable than selling cables?

[Gyro]

Yep, the EU won...

iPhone 15: Apple forced to ditch lightning charger

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-66778528

Presumably it won't be worth their while creating a lightning connector version for other markets so it will probably kill it.

[OT warning]
In other news (I just spotted it while digging out yesterday's story) France has halted iPhone 12 sales today over excessive emissions, with a potential forced recall if they can't fix it (presumably within the limits of s/w). I guess the rest of the EU will probably follow suit. Sounds expensive for a 3 year old device... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-66795168
[/OT]

[tszaboo]

But the resident expert told us they'd never do it. We must be seeing things.

It's clearly photoshop.
And simultaneously it's an evil plot to reduce the number of chargers that are sold.

[bd139]

Not sure what all the fuss is about with Apple and USB-C. They've had USB-C on nearly everything other than the iPhone and the shit iPads for years. They even contributed to the USB-C standards in the first place. My Apple monitor plugs into my MacBook with USB-C. It's got USB-C holes all over it. Same with the iPad. This was coming, EU or not. Dunno why it took so long but it wasn't because they wanted to sell cables and accessories because 99% of people just buy the shit ones from wherever so they're not exactly getting huge revenue out of it and accessories. This wasn't really a win as such just a boring inevitability. One I'm glad of but you know, it's well, boring. Lots of people like to get upset about things though.

Ironically now I've got a large box of perfectly good lightning cables which will inevitably end up in the bin. Any thoughts on that?

[ataradov]

Any thoughts on that?

They would end up in a bin sooner or later no matter what. But now you will not have new cables that would have to go to the bin.

Practically, it probably does not matter, since I expect majority of people to have more cables than devices anyway.

It is good to have a universal standard.

[bd139]

It is good to have a universal standard.

It is indeed. I'm not convinced it's that universal or reliable standard though!

Case in point, I have £4000 worth of Dell Precision 7670 here that won't charge off USB-C at all in any capacity with any cable I have tried including proper expensive 100W charging cables. Charging it off a Dell dock works sometimes, at the cost of blowing up a £350 dock every 3 months. And it has three USB-C ports with different capabilities so you need to know and understand what they are before you choose what to plug your stuff into! Same is true with the Pixel 6A I was using. Sometimes it charges, sometimes it doesn't. Then there's the Dell P2423DE monitor which is, depending on the weather, sometimes a monitor and sometimes a USB hub depending on how many times you replug the USB-C feed. Also it's a bit of a gamble as to what transfer speed you're getting depending on a combination of the cable, vendors, software, planetary alignment etc. I'm not even going to start on the 300 seat office hotdesking with USB-C shit show we have at work...

The end game is if you buy all your devices from one vendor and use their cables, everything works as intended. Apple. Hmm.

Not very universal!

Of course the outcome here will be to introduce something called USB-D at some point in the future which will replace this fucked up mess with another one designed by committee. I await throwing away all our standardised cables again in the future.

There were no winners.

Edit: worth noting this is a better situation than we were in but it's still a shit show! 

[SiliconWizard]

Ironically now I've got a large box of perfectly good lightning cables which will inevitably end up in the bin. Any thoughts on that?

Yeah, that's "collateral damage" as they say.

[tszaboo]

Ironically now I've got a large box of perfectly good lightning cables which will inevitably end up in the bin. Any thoughts on that?

Use it to charge your perfectly good phone?  It's not like your phone changed it's port overnight.