US 50% China Semiconductor Tariff

[EEVblog]

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1790385220983677016

I just imposed a series of tariffs on goods made in China:
 
25% on steel and aluminum,
50% on semiconductors,
100% on EVs,
And 50% on solar panels.
 
China is determined to dominate these industries.
I'm determined to ensure America leads the world in them.

Don't make me lock this thread or delete posts because you want to talk politics.
If you want to talk about the practical aspects of this, without the politics, please do so, otherwise do not post in this thread.

My first question is how does this work with say Aliexpress or LCSC etc component orders?

[wraper]

Does he want to kill the remaining electronics production? It's literally forcing manufacturers to outsource the assemblies or full production abroad.

[5U4GB]

Seems a totally crazy thing to do, half the planet depends on the shopping list of stuff that's just been made vastly more expensive if you're in the US.  So its main effect seems to be to make US industry even less competitive globally than it already is.  As the previous poster said, the only thing I can see happening is it driving even more manufacturing and business out of the US.

Let's just hope that the usual suspects of governments that slavishly copy everything the US does just because the US did it don't copy this particular move.

[woofy]

Good luck with that one, seems very short sighted to me.
They may be able to wack a tariff on direct semiconductors from china, but any company needing a chinese device will find a way around it. Simply import through another country.
If the tariff is phrased as "of chinese origin", then define "chinese origin". Here in the UK "country of origin is defined as the last country that major work was performed on, so if a kit was produced in the UK that contained a chinese semiconductor, then the country of origin of that kit is the UK.
Then again, companies could just shift their manufacturing overseas.
It all depends on the exact wording.

[forrestc]

My first question is how does this work with say Aliexpress or LCSC etc component orders?

Tariffs are rarely actually applied to tiny orders when importing into the US.   So I'm guessing that a typical hobby-quantity order isn't going to be affected at all, especially since most aliexpress-type sellers intentionally are obtuse on their customs paperwork in order to avoid tariffs.   

For production-quantity orders, you do get charged for the import duty.  The existing tariff in the US is actually 25% on semiconductors and has been a few years now.  The biggest PITA is that distributors are very inconsistent with whether prices include tariff fees or not, so it can be difficult to compare the actual landed cost between suppliers of the same semiconductors.  My purchasing person now knows which suppliers include the tax upfront, which hide it as an 'addon', and which don't mention it at all until you get charged for it unexpectedly.  Suppliers in the last category have become suppliers of last resort for us.   We still get surprised now and again as parts shift manufacturing locations since sometimes the manufacturing site changes unexpectedly.

So, I guess the summary is:  If you aren't seeing any effect today, you're not going to see any when this takes effect, other than certain things manufactured in the US will likely get more expensive. 

Note that there are certain ways for products which are made in China to be reprocessed such that they are no longer considered to be made in China.  For example, if you take silicon from a chinese fab, and then do the leadframe and packaging in a second country, the semiconductor can be considered to be made in the other country.   I know this works the other way as well.  For example, Microchip Technology has fabs in the USA, but most of the packaging is in Thailand or the Philippines.  So when I buy a semiconductor from Microchip Technologies, it's almost always tagged with an origin in Thailand or the Philippines even though the silicon was most likely produced in a fab in the USA.

[tszaboo]

Does he want to kill the remaining electronics production? It's literally forcing manufacturers to outsource the assemblies or full production abroad.

It's easy. You have 50% VAT import tax on semiconductors, and normal import tax on PCBAs or products, then you assemble it abroad and import the PCBAs. Task failed successfully. Also, enjoy EU exporting their electronics with Chinese parts inside. And being more competitive in pricing (and honestly, usually also better quality).

[JPortici]

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1790385220983677016

I just imposed a series of tariffs on goods made in China:
 
25% on steel and aluminum,
50% on semiconductors,
100% on EVs,
And 50% on solar panels.
 
China is determined to dominate these industries.
I'm determined to ensure America leads the world in them.

Don't make me lock this thread or delete posts because you want to talk politics.
If you want to talk about the practical aspects of this, without the politics, please do so, otherwise do not post in this thread.

My first question is how does this work with say Aliexpress or LCSC etc component orders?

Italy/Europe to follow soon.

Italian automotive is likely going to become an assembly line for chinese products to bypass tariffs (stellantis dismembering and selling magneti marelli, then cutting Fiat production but keeping all that french garbage*, and all italian manufactoring capacity on hold, but there were talks months ago about letting chinese firms in to produce cars here, but only the final stage assembly)
Good for the low specialization workers, as tens of thousands of jobs may not be on the line after all, but bad because many design and engineering jobs have gone away and unlikely to come back. We still rock as OEM for most of the european brands, but the current state of things and expectations is disturbing.

But tariffs look like the only countermeasure from dumping.

*I consider PSA being equal quality than fiat, both are at heart cheap brands except they have many absurd design choices that can be explained as doing it different than anybody else just for the sake of it, and parts that were broken from design - see the Adblue fiasco.

[5U4GB]

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1790385220983677016

Oh, and don't forget the excuse for this, that the Chinese government is subsidising its own manufacturers and that's anti-competitive.  Something the US would never, ever do, and pay no attention to posts like this from the White House.  I mean the CHIPS Act alone is a $39 billion subsidy for US manufacturers, and that's just one of many.

[m k]

My first question is how does this work with say Aliexpress or LCSC etc component orders?

My guess is that US tries to implement EU system, where everything goes through customs, more or less.

It's easy if there is a semi automated procedure.
The one that doesn't obey will be kicked out completely, so no imports from or through them.
So the seller is obligated.

We have also a partially reversed VAT.
Means that buyer deducts VAT before paying.

[wraper]

Good luck with that one, seems very short sighted to me.
They may be able to wack a tariff on direct semiconductors from china, but any company needing a chinese device will find a way around it. Simply import through another country.

It does not work like that, it's about country of origin, not from where it's shipped. Sure it's unlikely anyone would bother with tiny quantities, but no way around it for any serious production (unless you want to risk being prosecuted).

[wraper]

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1790385220983677016

Oh, and don't forget the excuse for this, that the Chinese government is subsidising its own manufacturers and that's anti-competitive.  Something the US would never, ever do, and pay no attention to posts like this from the White House.  I mean the CHIPS Act alone is a $39 billion subsidy for US manufacturers, and that's just one of many.

So far seems to work about as well as $7.5 billion subsidy for EV chargers - 8 charging stations built in two years.

[wraper]

Does he want to kill the remaining electronics production? It's literally forcing manufacturers to outsource the assemblies or full production abroad.

It's easy. You have 50% VAT on semiconductors, and normal tax on PCBAs or products, then you assemble it abroad and import the PCBAs. Task failed successfully. Also, enjoy EU exporting their electronics with Chinese parts inside. And being more competitive in pricing (and honestly, usually also better quality).

VAT is deductible though, import tax generally is not.

[tautech]

Hypocrites.

Western multinationals thought nothing of shutting down local production and shipping it to the East.
Boards, Managers and shareholders got large profits from reduced BOM.
Tough luck for the local employees !

They made the East wealthy to where it could challenge the remaining West production.
Now they wanna penalise the East for the profits they have given the Western multinationals ?

Again Hypocrites and bloody shortsighted ones at that.

[ebastler]

Don't make me lock this thread or delete posts because you want to talk politics.
If you want to talk about the practical aspects of this, without the politics, please do so, otherwise do not post in this thread.

Hypocrites. [...]

 

[rsjsouza]

This looks like simple posturing from this misgovernment. US mainland manufacturing is the main target of such tax hike and import taxes on independent parts will only impact manufacturers that do local assembly. Given that larger corporations can shift manufacturing to Asia much easier than small companies, this will erode profit margin or the markets for the latter.

Also, in my experience of having lived in a country with hefty taxes, people will find a way to circumvent this. Just mount the part in a board and it ceases to be a "semiconductor" but instead "assembled goods". Create a bag of parts and, while crossing the border, it falls into a different tax category. And so on.

These tactics will hurt the local entrepreneurs and small manufacturing.

[S. Petrukhin]

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1790385220983677016

Oh, and don't forget the excuse for this, that the Chinese government is subsidising its own manufacturers and that's anti-competitive.  Something the US would never, ever do, and pay no attention to posts like this from the White House.  I mean the CHIPS Act alone is a $39 billion subsidy for US manufacturers, and that's just one of many.

Do you have documents confirming this, or is it your feeling?    After all, you can name any fictional reason and start acting.

China "subsidizes" with cheap production, hard work and difficult working conditions, which, I think, no one in the West will agree to.
In addition, it is not necessary to issue subsidies in cash, you can simply order a telescope with an initial cost of $400 million, and eventually pay $5 billion for it. For example. 
Or find a way to keep the defense industry busy...

I'm sorry, but from the outside, the policy of the West looks like nonsense or caring only about the money of the richest.
The greed of the Western rich gave production to China, Malaysia, Philippines, is easier to use slave labor there.
But the Chinese did not want to be just slaves. 

[SeanB]

Going to be a lot of US production moving south of the border to Mexico, and similarly to Canada, and only finished goods coming in, avoiding these surcharges. Also will be a whole lot of stuff that gets shipped to an intermediate country to get the paperwork washed, container in, washed container out, with the same seals still on it, and it did not even leave the ship.

[S. Petrukhin]

Going to be a lot of US production moving south of the border to Mexico, and similarly to Canada, and only finished goods coming in, avoiding these surcharges. Also will be a whole lot of stuff that gets shipped to an intermediate country to get the paperwork washed, container in, washed container out, with the same seals still on it, and it did not even leave the ship.

Someone will get a good business and win a lot of money that ordinary people will pay - that's how it works.
But you can't talk about politics - everyone is good with it, there are no culprits. 

[mendip_discovery]

Not surprising really.

The 100% on cars is going to hurt the sales of BYD which seems to be a fast growing business at the moment. Might give tesla a chance to catch up with sales again.

Its going to push up the prices of the 'made in America' stuff that uses Chinese parts.


But like most things most will just carry on like normal and pay for it as they don't have any other choices.

[ELS122]

>Asks geo-political question.
"Dont you get into politics"


It's not practical for any consumer, it's not practical for companies. It's practical for reviving domestic businesses which were driven out of the market because they couldn't compete with the pricing of the semiconductors build in china using essentially slave labor. And since all other countries that have infrastructure to allow for semiconductor manufacturing have more human rights and enforced minimum wages, they could never compete with the prices China can offer.
Tariffs would break this noncompetitive monopoly China has on cheap semiconductors, but for the consumer it would obviously mean higher prices.

[wraper]

Not surprising really.

The 100% on cars is going to hurt the sales of BYD which seems to be a fast growing business at the moment. Might give tesla a chance to catch up with sales again.

BYD sales were down 43% on 1Q 2024 so Tesla is ahead again

[S. Petrukhin]

BYD sales were down 43% on 1Q 2024 so Tesla is ahead again

Who is BYD?

[coppice]

Here in the UK "country of origin is defined as the last country that major work was performed on, so if a kit was produced in the UK that contained a chinese semiconductor, then the country of origin of that kit is the UK.

Country of origin is now pretty much a global term. Without some common standards for these terms each component would need to be produced specifically for it end user country. However, it leads to things like the Philippines and Malaysia appearing to be among the world's biggest semiconductor makers from their markings, because there are major packaging plants there. So, it ends up obscuring more than illuminating.

[tautech]

BYD sales were down 43% on 1Q 2024 so Tesla is ahead again

Who is BYD?

Build Your Dream, Asian EV manufacturer.
Like Polestar (Asian/Volvo joint venture) they are big over there and growing fast.

[mawyatt]

The Semiconductor Economic Field is quite unique & complex indeed.

1) What % of the chip cost is directly attributed to manual labor?

2) What % of the chip is attributed to NRE development cost?

3) What % to fab/facility cost?

4) What's the time line and direct cost to steal copy a competitors chip, when to break even?

5) When is it profitable to move a chip design to a new smaller feature process?

6) What benefits/subsidies do different fab/facilities location provide?

If one thinks about it, when is it economically $ viable for a Semi Company to build a new SOTA fab (>$25B today), how many acres of Silicon does it take to break even on this investment? What Harvard MBA would even consider this investment unless some "outside" investments (subsidies) were at stake.

These "investments" may not all be about $, these might include country security/wellbeing/future as well. Ever wonder what's behind the TSMC 2 fabs being built in Arizona???

Yes, the Semiconductor Economic Field is quite unique & complex indeed, where Economic entails more than just $

So the decision on this imposed tariff seems short-sided and ill advised indeed, but here in US we've come to expect such from the Washington Wizards (Wayne's World context, NOT) we've elected over the past half century  

Best,

[S. Petrukhin]

These "investments" may not all be about $, these might include country security/wellbeing/future as well. Ever wonder what's behind the TSMC 2 fabs being built in Arizona???

You might be surprised, but we in Russia are already feeling what you call "not only $". 
You're probably going to have the same thing.

It is very sad that humanity has fallen back to the construction of medieval castles... 

[rstofer]

The US .gov is pumping a lot of money into new onshore semiconductor plants including a new TSMC factory.  It seems reasonable to create a market for these plants by driving the price of offshore chips higher.

These new plants are considered vital to our national security.

To unerstand the scope of .gov involvement Google for 'us govt funding new semiconductor plants'.  Every hog is munching at this trough full of money.

[globoy]

As someone who both buys parts from China and who manages small scale foreign production runs of PCB assemblies I can say the following two things:

1. I already see my vendors preparing for this.  One production vendor has the ability for me to add the import duty to my orders and then they do the paperwork and pay the logistics company who manages the trip through customs.  The distributor LCSC is making sure I understand when I place orders that I may be required to pay import duties with a new notification.
2. This is going to be hard on people like me and make me less competitive.  The US board and assembly houses are still significantly more expensive and the cynic in me doesn't think that these import duties will cause them to reduce their prices.  On the contrary, they'll probably go up as they feel they have a more captive market.

I will, of course, be looking to see how companies work around this.

[soldar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_engineering
Ford Motor Company imported the Ford Transit from Spain as complete passenger vehicles, including rear seat, rear seat belts, and rear glass windows, in order to avoid a 25% tariff on cargo-duty vehicles, known as the Chicken tax, and instead pay the lower tariff of 2.5%. Once the vehicles arrived in the United States, Ford converted the Transit into its cargo van by removing the rear seats, rear seat belts, and sometimes replacing the rear glass with metal panels.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Transit_Connect
To circumvent the 25% "chicken tax" on imported light trucks, all examples have been imported as passenger vans, with cargo vans converted to the intended configuration after their importation.

[wraper]

The US .gov is pumping a lot of money into new onshore semiconductor plants including a new TSMC factory.  It seems reasonable to create a market for these plants by driving the price of offshore chips higher.

These new plants are considered vital to our national security.

To unerstand the scope of .gov involvement Google for 'us govt funding new semiconductor plants'.  Every hog is munching at this trough full of money.

Except most of semiconductors that will be hit by this tax won't even be produced there. Also CHIPS money comes with a lot of bullshit involved, so companies who started building those factories would be happy to pull out of that. https://thehill.com/opinion/4517470-dei-killed-the-chips-act/
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/28/phoenix-microchip-plant-biden-union-tsmc

[tautech]

The US .gov is pumping a lot of money into new onshore semiconductor plants including a new TSMC factory.  It seems reasonable to create a market for these plants by driving the price of offshore chips higher.

These new plants are considered vital to our national security.

To unerstand the scope of .gov involvement Google for 'us govt funding new semiconductor plants'.  Every hog is munching at this trough full of money.

Yeah but none of this is why it is being built.

mawyatt gave us clues to why with this:
6) What benefits/subsidies do different fab/facilities location provide?

Research where TSMC originates from and where its other fab plants are.
This is a 'you rub my back and we'll rub yours'


Then who earlier said the Asian manufacturers were subsidised.
Of course they are just as any other company worldwide generating export income for their country.

[mawyatt]

The US .gov is pumping a lot of money into new onshore semiconductor plants including a new TSMC factory.  It seems reasonable to create a market for these plants by driving the price of offshore chips higher.

These new plants are considered vital to our national security.

To unerstand the scope of .gov involvement Google for 'us govt funding new semiconductor plants'.  Every hog is munching at this trough full of money.

TSMC is building 2 SOTA fabs in Arizona, capable of 3nm feature CMOS, and planning on a 3rd fab!! TSMC will be investing more than $65B of their own $, so not all funded by USG as many believe!!

https://pr.tsmc.com/english/news/3122

The direct benefits of these fabs will the Apple and Nvidia, as their most advanced chips are in TSMC 3nm CMOS, Apples M4 chip as example.

Amazingly you can get the new Apple M4 3nm 25 Billion Transistor CMOS chip today in the new iPad!!!

These are direct in line day-to-day benefits of having a SOTA fab next door!!

Best

[S. Petrukhin]

These new plants are considered vital to our national security.

Who is attacking the US? Who is threatening?
Even if there is a threat, will you eat 3nm chips or the capitalization of companies?

[KE5FX]

These new plants are considered vital to our national security.

Who is attacking the US? Who is threatening?

No comment

[S. Petrukhin]

These new plants are considered vital to our national security.

Who is attacking the US? Who is threatening?

No comment

Why?

[coppice]

These new plants are considered vital to our national security.

Who is attacking the US? Who is threatening?

No comment

Why?

He could tell you, but then he'd have to kill you.

[S. Petrukhin]

These new plants are considered vital to our national security.

Who is attacking the US? Who is threatening?

No comment

Why?

He could tell you, but then he'd have to kill you.

Gentlemen to take their word for it? 

[themadhippy]

Coming soon,china imposes tarriffs on usa imports,closely followed by butt hurt  americans  complaining about how china increasing there tariffs have hit there business.China should  just stick 2 fingers up and cash in the near trillion dollars of debt  they  hold,28 days terms  or we send the bailiffs in.

[mawyatt]

These new plants are considered vital to our national security.

Who is attacking the US? Who is threatening?
Even if there is a threat, will you eat 3nm chips or the capitalization of companies?

The US is under constant "attack" 24/7/365, maybe not physical attacks with guns/tanks/cannons/missiles and such but more of Cyber, IP, Infrastructure type.

National Security involves much more than protecting one's Physical Borders, but IP Borders, Cyber Borders, Financial Borders and Infrastructure Borders as well.

It's well known that Advanced Technology Companies are prime targets for IP theft, and have been for a some time, even from so called "friends" (Remember the 1982 Hitiachi IBM technology theft case, which Hitachi pleaded guilty).

No Government could ever hope to develop the advanced chips we have at our fingertips today, they are far too complex and difficult for any government, even the prestigious DARPA were passed many decades ago in creating advanced CMOS semiconductor technology and general purpose processor chips. So governments are relying on commercial chips, often lots of them, to implement the various forms of "National Security" and protect all the various "Borders". Same goes for Advanced Technology companies which have their own internal structures to prevent IP leaks and theft, many with government "assistance".

Best,

[m k]

China should  just stick 2 fingers up and cash in the near trillion dollars of debt  they  hold,28 days terms  or we send the bailiffs in.

Biden can ask the Fed to mint few coins and be done with it.

[BrianHG]

I remember the US D-Ram tariffs for Japanese memory in the late 80s/early 90s.  Here in Canada, it was finally cheaper to ship in memory direct instead of getting it from US distributors.  It was a mess if you wanted to ship PCs from Canada to the USA.

[mawyatt]

I remember the US D-Ram tariffs for Japanese memory in the late 80s/early 90s.  Here in Canada, it was finally cheaper to ship in memory direct instead of getting it from US distributors.  It was a mess if you wanted to ship PCs from Canada to the USA.

Wasn't that when Japan was accused of "dumping" on the DRAM chips?

Best,

[BrianHG]

I remember the US D-Ram tariffs for Japanese memory in the late 80s/early 90s.  Here in Canada, it was finally cheaper to ship in memory direct instead of getting it from US distributors.  It was a mess if you wanted to ship PCs from Canada to the USA.

Wasn't that when Japan was accused of "dumping" on the DRAM chips?

Best,

Those were the 'political' words being used.  It might have been true, if so, it would have cost the manufactures and the Japanese government hundreds of millions.  And during that time, this would be a truly significant figure.

The Japanese, I believe at the time Fujitsu, switched to a new all CMOS process for their new 1mb drams while everyone else was still using partial bi-polar process which had too low yield.  The USA just couldn't compete with that cost efficiency.

[S. Petrukhin]

The US is under constant "attack" 24/7/365, maybe not physical attacks with guns/tanks/cannons/missiles and such but more of Cyber, IP, Infrastructure type.

National Security involves much more than protecting one's Physical Borders, but IP Borders, Cyber Borders, Financial Borders and Infrastructure Borders as well.

It's well known that Advanced Technology Companies are prime targets for IP theft, and have been for a some time, even from so called "friends" (Remember the 1982 Hitiachi IBM technology theft case, which Hitachi pleaded guilty).

No Government could ever hope to develop the advanced chips we have at our fingertips today, they are far too complex and difficult for any government, even the prestigious DARPA were passed many decades ago in creating advanced CMOS semiconductor technology and general purpose processor chips. So governments are relying on commercial chips, often lots of them, to implement the various forms of "National Security" and protect all the various "Borders". Same goes for Advanced Technology companies which have their own internal structures to prevent IP leaks and theft, many with government "assistance".

Thanks for the detailed answer! It is very interesting to get an opinion, not from the biased media.

I understand the anxiety about cyber attacks. I am not a country, but my home router was attacked so often that I refused the real IP.

But as for technology. Weren't American companies themselves looking for more favorable conditions in Asia and moving production there, refusing to pay americans a large salary? After all, they acted according to market laws - chose more favorable conditions.

I'm sorry, I have a lot of questions. If you think it's possible, please respond. I really want to understand what's going on.

Why are modern chips so important? Was life bad in America 30 years ago without them?
Why is there a threat of losing their production in Asia? Is there a lot of stealing?
Why didn't you want go to Mexico, for example?
Why does this threaten national security, and not a separate commercial company? Especially the one who does not know how to manage risks and does not know how to play a competent, far-sighted game in the market. He does not know how to protect himself from theft.
Why doesn't this threaten, for example, the open core, which is licensed to be produced by anyone who wants to? One successful USA company did not want to depend on Intel anymore and chose an open core - created own M1 processor.
Why is the protection of their companies in China causing a negative reaction?
Why is it important to be at the top and own the world, and not live quietly, enjoying the successes of others and buying the products of others?

Once again, I'm sorry for the many naive questions.
If you answer, there will be more understanding in the world, which is necessary for all of us.

[S. Petrukhin]

Wasn't that when Japan was accused of "dumping" on the DRAM chips?

What's wrong with being able to buy DRAM cheaper for yourself? You have a lot of money left for other needs. Isn't that how the market works? Isn't that how American companies sold cheap printers with expensive inks? Why is the similar behavior of other countries dangerous for the United States?

[ebastler]

Once again, I'm sorry for the many naive questions.
If you answer, there will be more understanding in the world, which is necessary for all of us.

If anybody is inclined to answer, may I suggest that this be done via PM. This thread is deep into the territory which, in his opening post, Dave had explicitly asked us to avoid.

[S. Petrukhin]

Once again, I'm sorry for the many naive questions.
If you answer, there will be more understanding in the world, which is necessary for all of us.

If anybody is inclined to answer, may I suggest that this be done via PM. This thread is deep into the territory which, in his opening post, Dave had explicitly asked us to avoid.

Of course! Welcome! My participation in the forum implies that you are free to write to me without any permissions.

[coppice]

I remember the US D-Ram tariffs for Japanese memory in the late 80s/early 90s.  Here in Canada, it was finally cheaper to ship in memory direct instead of getting it from US distributors.  It was a mess if you wanted to ship PCs from Canada to the USA.

That was a period when the US was accusing all sorts of people of dumping all sorts of things, many of them Japanese. Those accusations were based on US companies claiming how much various parts of the value chain cost them, with the implicit accusation that nobody could actually be cheaper than "the American way". This was really bogus in many cases, based on highly bloated US figures, especially for things like admin overheads.

[S. Petrukhin]

I remember the US D-Ram tariffs for Japanese memory in the late 80s/early 90s.  Here in Canada, it was finally cheaper to ship in memory direct instead of getting it from US distributors.  It was a mess if you wanted to ship PCs from Canada to the USA.

That was a period when the US was accusing all sorts of people of dumping all sorts of things, many of them Japanese. Those accusations were based on US companies claiming how much various parts of the value chain cost them, with the implicit accusation that nobody could actually be cheaper than "the American way". This was really bogus in many cases, based on highly bloated US figures, especially for things like admin overheads.

Not so long ago, one senator asked why a package of simple bushings costs $90 000 (!) for the US army, although there is a maximum of $100.

[S. Petrukhin]

If anybody is inclined to answer, may I suggest that this be done via PM. This thread is deep into the territory which, in his opening post, Dave had explicitly asked us to avoid.

You know what's the matter... This is not a political forum, there are sensible people, educated engineers - those who are able to have their own opinion, and not repeat politicians and propaganda. Therefore, this opinion is very interesting. The situation has divided us into different sides. Personally, I am interested in the opinion from the other side. Perhaps my opinion will be interesting too. We live on the same planet...

[bdunham7]

Does he want to kill the remaining electronics production? It's literally forcing manufacturers to outsource the assemblies or full production abroad.

Are they actually not going to apply the tariff to Chinese-made semiconductors incorporated into an assembled PCB or product?  That seems implausibly stupid.

Also, how many semiconductors are typically actually "Chinese-made" as opposed to being reexported from China?

[nctnico]

Wasn't that when Japan was accused of "dumping" on the DRAM chips?

What's wrong with being able to buy DRAM cheaper for yourself? You have a lot of money left for other needs. Isn't that how the market works? Isn't that how American companies sold cheap printers with expensive inks? Why is the similar behavior of other countries dangerous for the United States?

The problem is more complicated than that. The price of goods is rarely related to the actual manufacturing costs. Price of commodity goods is often driven by supply, demand and companies trying to get into a market by artificially lower prices. The latter means selling at such a loss that the competition can't match the price and goes bankcrupt (or moves to making different products). Once the competition is out, the prices are jacked up to recover the losses. This is exactly what China is being accused off; selling products at unhealthy low prices in order to corner the market later on.

[coppercone2]

they better make people get off their ass and start making chips here

maybe more basic fabs. that would actually be cool, because it would make equipment and stuff cheaper if they had more local manufacturers doing 'basic' stuff. Like when the small scale local 74 series plant does PM and lists some old equipment. and it means high tech jobs without the ridiculous vetting process, because its no longer ivy league, just advanced technology. When they only make the 'worlds hardest' chips then its a super exclusive snoot club. this means you will get more trained people that have industry experiance to actually push technology forward because it will be easy to hire people for better jobs when they get some experience making basic stuff like diodes etc, not just a 1 off in a lab but small assembly lines and real business skills etc. And it might mean local jobs so you don't need to dedicate your life to moving to a specific expensive ass place like SV to get that dream job of working with UV or whatever, and the stress level should be lower because its not the super most cutting edge secret stuff.

[S. Petrukhin]

The problem is more complicated than that. The price of goods is rarely related to the actual manufacturing costs. Price of commodity goods is often driven by supply, demand and companies trying to get into a market by artificially lower prices. The latter means selling at such a loss that the competition can't match the price and goes bankcrupt (or moves to making different products). Once the competition is out, the prices are jacked up to recover the losses. This is exactly what China is being accused off; selling products at unhealthy low prices in order to corner the market later on.

It is likely that there is a problem to determine dumping or a competitor has a better organization.
In Japan, as far as I know, deflation and prices have been declining for a long time. After all, we are talking about the Japanese DRAM.

[SiliconWizard]

The likely short-term outcome (and who knows about the longer term) is further inflation (which is already not good) and a number of companies getting out of business.

When I first read this Tweet, I thought it was just a fake. It looked like a joke.

The question I asked in another thread recently (and which some have also raised here) remains: what about products *containing* chinese semiconductors, but said semiconductors not imported directly? We need to know.

Also, I'm all for rebuilding some lost industry in the West, but that should be done with some planning and intelligence, not in such a brutal way that looks like a joke. Just a thought.

[nctnico]

Also, I'm all for rebuilding some lost industry in the West

You don't want that at all. Just think about how the price of a product is build up. On average, 70% of the price of a mass produced product is earned in the sales process (wholesale and shops). Manufacturing earns like 5% to 10% of the retail price of a product. It is not interesting. The best way to make money is doing the design and sales. Leave manufacturing to low wage countries. Look at Apple for example. It makes no sense to do manufacting in 'the West' because people won't be able to make a living from doing manufacturing jobs. Anyone promising/wishing to bring manufacturing back to the the west is living in a pipe dream. Car manufacturing is the next thing to go away.

[thm_w]

Digikey just added 3Peak recently: https://www.digikey.ca/en/supplier-centers/3peak
As a random example, for their LMV358 you'd have to bring the price up ~56% to match TI's price. So thats oddly appropriate. Some of their other parts though are still competitive even with the increase (eg TI charges a lot more for motor drivers).

>Asks geo-political question.
"Dont you get into politics"

No geopolitical question was actually asked, the topic is highly political but that does not mean it is impossible to discuss only certain aspects of it.
If its not possible for certain people, then they lack self control.

The question I asked in another thread recently (and which some have also raised here) remains: what about products *containing* chinese semiconductors, but said semiconductors not imported directly? We need to know.

Its the same as before, if you get it assembled somewhere else you can probably get around the tariffs. Vietnam is a common one.

"Barnette also notes that some companies have workarounds by ordering from countries exempt from tariffs. Even if the components come from prohibited countries, if they’re packaged and labeled in a different country, the tariffs can be subverted. “There may be some price increases but not significant,” Barnette says."
https://www.securityinfowatch.com/integrators/article/55040548/pricing-impact-of-tariff-hike-on-semiconductors-may-be-small
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/19/10.16

[S. Petrukhin]

Leave manufacturing to low wage countries.

Do you think these countries will agree to be slave labor for a long time? Isn't this the consequence with China now?

[SiliconWizard]

Leave manufacturing to low wage countries.

Do you think these countries will agree to be slave labor for a long time? Isn't this the consequence with China now?

It's obvious, even any moral consideration aside, that it's not sustainable anyway.

[nctnico]

Leave manufacturing to low wage countries.

Do you think these countries will agree to be slave labor for a long time? Isn't this the consequence with China now?

No, but there is a long list of next low wage countries in Asia, South America and Africa. Mexico for example, is the low wage country of choice of US based companies if they want to keep production close. But political stability in Mexico is an issue due to drugs related violence (which in turn is due to the huge market for drugs in the US).

[S. Petrukhin]

No, but there is a long list of next low wage countries in Asia, South America and Africa.

Are you imagine a mobile CHIP or car factory that tours different countries? 
Obviously, not only the labor force affects, but also the availability of resources, their price, taxes, climatic conditions and transport...

If you don't like Mexico, there's Canada nearby.  There is no crime on a tangible scale.
And in America itself, if you look, a lot of people are willing to earn less, but steadily. Government support in the form of health insurance, for example, can help this, etc. Most likely it will be so.

I don't think everything is bad and lost in the USA.  There are traditions of quality present, the peaks of technology, etc.
For example, I will buy an expensive Milwaukee instrument - it justifies its price.
There is more confidence in the products produced in the USA. But there is a big risk of political decisions.

When America returns to leadership as a model of a good life, not politics, everything will be fine. 

[coppice]

Digikey just added 3Peak recently: https://www.digikey.ca/en/supplier-centers/3peak
As a random example, for their LMV358 you'd have to bring the price up ~56% to match TI's price. So thats oddly appropriate. Some of their other parts though are still competitive even with the increase (eg TI charges a lot more for motor drivers).

You can't judge prices by what Digilkey lists. They are a small volume, high service distributor. Their prices can be almost random, depending on numerous factors. Try talking seriously to a vendor, or their main distributors, about a production volume purchase and prices will look very difference.

[S. Petrukhin]

You can't judge prices by what Digilkey lists. They are a small volume, high service distributor.

Many people have said this here: bigwigs of the business will not suffer, they will find a solution or concessions.
There will be difficulties for medium and small companies to which manufacturers will not open door.

[EEVblog]

BYD sales were down 43% on 1Q 2024 so Tesla is ahead again

Who is BYD?

Build Your Dream, Asian EV manufacturer.
Like Polestar (Asian/Volvo joint venture) they are big over there and growing fast.

BYD EV's are reasonably popular here in oz, you see a quite a few of them around Sydney.

[thm_w]

Digikey just added 3Peak recently: https://www.digikey.ca/en/supplier-centers/3peak
As a random example, for their LMV358 you'd have to bring the price up ~56% to match TI's price. So thats oddly appropriate. Some of their other parts though are still competitive even with the increase (eg TI charges a lot more for motor drivers).

You can't judge prices by what Digilkey lists. They are a small volume, high service distributor. Their prices can be almost random, depending on numerous factors. Try talking seriously to a vendor, or their main distributors, about a production volume purchase and prices will look very difference.

No they are not a good reflection of mass production runs in most cases, but many small companies with less than reel volumes source directly from digikey.

And if you look at the 3peak stuff they have quantities quoted up to 75,000pc: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/3peak/TPM8837C-DF4R/22229148
You really think the price will come down much less than 9c per chip?

[tautech]

BYD sales were down 43% on 1Q 2024 so Tesla is ahead again

Who is BYD?

Build Your Dream, Asian EV manufacturer.
Like Polestar (Asian/Volvo joint venture) they are big over there and growing fast.

BYD EV's are reasonably popular here in oz, you see a quite a few of them around Sydney.

Quite a few here too but many more Tesla's.
The more discerning EV buyers are waking to Polestar which offers more than Tesla in comparable models.

[Bud]

If you don't like Mexico, there's Canada nearby. 

Labor is expensive in Canada.

I don't think everything is bad and lost in the USA.  There are traditions of quality present, the peaks of technology, etc.
For example, I will buy an expensive Milwaukee instrument - it justifies its price.
There is more confidence in the products produced in the USA.

Milwaukee tools are made in China   

[themadhippy]

Do you think these countries will agree to be slave labor for a long time?

Is it slave labor if the staff are being paid  more than the countrys minimum wage

[tautech]

I just imposed a series of tariffs on goods made in China:
 
25% on steel and aluminum,
50% on semiconductors,
100% on EVs,
And 50% on solar panels.
 
China is determined to dominate these industries.
I'm determined to ensure America leads the world in them.

This will be interesting how this will help the US reach emission targets from the Paris Accord.

Add that China already has a good amount of the worlds Lithium resources already tied up.
 

[BrianHG]

If you don't like Mexico, there's Canada nearby. 

Labor is expensive in Canada.

It's still ~50% cheaper than in the USA.  And in some cities, we have access to a very high talent pool in engineering and art.

[BillyO]

I have to wonder where this benefits giant American companies like TI and Intel that have a large portion of their manufacturing in China.  Or other giant American companies (pick any 20 or 30 you like) that have designed products around components only made by Chinese companies.  Does this affect only components manufactured in China and not Chinese designed components manufactured elsewhere?  What about Taiwan, or is it only mainland China?  Where does this leave Hong Kong and Macau?  What about components only partially built in China then finished elsewhere?

How in Wan Haung Lo's name are they going to put together a reasonable way to police this and not put American companies over a barrel?

Seems like a bunch of addle-minded politicians and bureaucrats got together and secluded themselves from anyone that could bring a modicum of rationality to this, in order to invent an announcement that might appeal to certain fence-sitting voters.

But seriously, wouldn't something like this be done only after long discussion with the affected parties within the US?

[BillyO]

Fair enough.  A lot of what you say has merit.  Tough love sometimes makes sense.  However, it's usually phased in after other approaches have been tried and failed.  This, and I'm only talking about the tariff on semi-conductors, seems a little sudden.  I can see and fully understand reasons for putting tariffs on products where you have an industry in that vertical to protect/build but to just turn around and pull the rug out from everyone seems a little more like a stunt than a "let's pull our socks up" initiative.  There were reasons the whole semiconductor business was globalized.  I don't see that those reasons have disappeared.  In fact, the supply chain events you speak of were precisely due to the fact that the globalization was allowed to get skewed over time.  Mostly due to corporate greed.

Anyway, I don't see it happening here in Canada.  We don't have a semiconductor industry to protect.  Of course history shows us the US has more power over us than we have over ourselves so I maybe indulging in wishful thinking there.

[forrestc]

The question I asked in another thread recently (and which some have also raised here) remains: what about products *containing* chinese semiconductors, but said semiconductors not imported directly? We need to know.

The US does not tax based on percentage of content.   If I manufacture in Canada, I can use all of the semiconductors from China I want in my Canada-manufactured product and ship it to the US tariff-free (assuming Canada itself doesn't have a similar tariff).

There are of course rules designed to prevent people from gaming the system - i.e. I can't buy a completed product and relabel it in Canada and call it now Canada origin.   That's the only place percentage of content comes into the picture - figuring out what the real country of origin is.

[EEVblog]

If anybody is inclined to answer, may I suggest that this be done via PM. This thread is deep into the territory which, in his opening post, Dave had explicitly asked us to avoid.

You know what's the matter... This is not a political forum, there are sensible people, educated engineers - those who are able to have their own opinion, and not repeat politicians and propaganda. Therefore, this opinion is very interesting. The situation has divided us into different sides. Personally, I am interested in the opinion from the other side. Perhaps my opinion will be interesting too. We live on the same planet...

Please do not encourage political discussion. Those who cannot help themselves, please depart this thread.

[S. Petrukhin]

Do you think these countries will agree to be slave labor for a long time?

Is it slave labor if the staff are being paid  more than the countrys minimum wage

30 years ago it could have been happiness, but now the whole world is transparent and desires are growing.

[S. Petrukhin]

Milwaukee tools are made in China   

A disaster! What is produced in the USA then? 

But this tells us that top-level quality is possible in China, only organization and knowledge are needed.

It seems that the packaging on my instrument contained Made in the USA...

[BillyO]

A disaster! What is produced in the USA then? 

Like most western countries IP and a few boutique products.

[S. Petrukhin]

If you don't think this is a risk to business, try investing in Russia at the moment and see how that works out.

Perhaps you don't know - Russia still supplies a lot of important goods to the US and EU and buys, by the way, too. 
American and Europian companies are present in Russia and make profit.
The companies, that left, sold (did not lose) their property.

Behaving rudely, stealing, and violating obligations with political decisions are not methods that we like. 
Reputation is still important to us. Other partners appreciate this.

You can freely come to Russia and make business here, you will only have problems sending money to home, I think, who created this obstacle you know.

Investments are continuing, there are those who want.

[S. Petrukhin]

A disaster! What is produced in the USA then? 

Like most western countries IP and a few boutique products.

How can we find jobs for 300 million people? Do they bake big macs for each other and that's it? 

[JeremyC]

Is it slave labor if the staff are being paid  more than the countrys minimum wage

You should check these links:
https://www.state.gov/forced-labor-in-chinas-xinjiang-region/
https://nlpc.org/current-projects/report-more-suppliers-for-apple-discovered-using-slave-labor/
https://www.democracynow.org/2020/1/9/inside_chinas_push_to_turn_muslim

[bdunham7]

Milwaukee tools are made in China   

I don't think he's referring to Milwaukee power tools.

https://milwaukeeinstruments.com/

[BillyO]

How can we find jobs for 300 million people? Do they bake big macs for each other and that's it? 

There is a lot of that, but the good jobs are in developing and selling technology to the high-end service industries like health care, banking, infrastructure, transportation and recreation.

[S. Petrukhin]

Milwaukee tools are made in China   

I don't think he's referring to Milwaukee power tools.
https://milwaukeeinstruments.com/

That's right, I meant a hand tool - pliers, screwdrivers, etc.

[S. Petrukhin]

How can we find jobs for 300 million people? Do they bake big macs for each other and that's it? 

There is a lot of that, but the good jobs are in developing and selling technology to the high-end service industries like health care, banking, infrastructure, transportation and recreation.

Probably, military production is still huge and does not use the services of China? 

[BillyO]

Probably, military production is still huge and does not use the services of China? 

For sure.  Like Russia, the US like their military.

[S. Petrukhin]

You should check these links:

And they also eat the bad guys in China. 

My communication with the Chinese gives me the idea that they are too carried away by the race for a "beautiful life" and voluntarily work a lot.
Most often I heard the fear of easily losing job because there is queue of others outside the door.
But I couldn't talk to ordinary Chinese, my social circle is managers and engineers.

When I was young, I could also work 14-16 hours for extra profit. 

[S. Petrukhin]

For sure.  Like Russia, the US like their military.

It's obvious. But in Russia, military production is state-owned, there are no private individuals who directly make huge profits.
In the USA, these are commercial companies that can go and buy in China (roughly speaking).
I understand that there are localization requirements, but businesses can always find loopholes.

By the way, let me remind you that there is not a single Russian military base near NATO countries.
And the Chinese military bases are also somehow unnoticeable. 

[BillyO]

By the way, let me remind you that there is not a single Russian military base near NATO countries.
And the Chinese military bases are also somehow unnoticeable. 

Of course not.  No one would assume that.

[CaptainBucko]

Tariff's can be a complex area, so understanding the impact can be difficult.
In many situations, tariff's apply to consumption in the country applying the tariff. So for items manufactured with tariffed goods, the manufacturer can claim exemption (or repayment) for goods exported.

Country of Origin also matters - and that can be incredibly difficult area in itself. Country of Origin is technically defined by the location of the last substantial transformation or value adding, but when multiple countries are involved, and with pre-existing IP, it gets really complicated. For example, consider a company called ABC who manufactures a new model of operational amplifier. You need to consider:
   - How much IP came from pre-existing IP (earlier designs) and where it was developed?
   - Where the R&D occurred?
   - Where testing occurs
   and finally, where manufacturing occurs.
So just because the item is manufactured in China, does not mean the Country of Origin is China.

[S. Petrukhin]

So just because the item is manufactured in China, does not mean the Country of Origin is China.

If China refuses to produce, do you charge the tape with technical documentation into installation machine?
Legal subtleties are not amplified high-frequency signal. Isn't it?

[ELS122]

The US is under constant "attack" 24/7/365, maybe not physical attacks with guns/tanks/cannons/missiles and such but more of Cyber, IP, Infrastructure type.

National Security involves much more than protecting one's Physical Borders, but IP Borders, Cyber Borders, Financial Borders and Infrastructure Borders as well.

It's well known that Advanced Technology Companies are prime targets for IP theft, and have been for a some time, even from so called "friends" (Remember the 1982 Hitiachi IBM technology theft case, which Hitachi pleaded guilty).

No Government could ever hope to develop the advanced chips we have at our fingertips today, they are far too complex and difficult for any government, even the prestigious DARPA were passed many decades ago in creating advanced CMOS semiconductor technology and general purpose processor chips. So governments are relying on commercial chips, often lots of them, to implement the various forms of "National Security" and protect all the various "Borders". Same goes for Advanced Technology companies which have their own internal structures to prevent IP leaks and theft, many with government "assistance".

Thanks for the detailed answer! It is very interesting to get an opinion, not from the biased media.

I understand the anxiety about cyber attacks. I am not a country, but my home router was attacked so often that I refused the real IP.

But as for technology. Weren't American companies themselves looking for more favorable conditions in Asia and moving production there, refusing to pay americans a large salary? After all, they acted according to market laws - chose more favorable conditions.

I'm sorry, I have a lot of questions. If you think it's possible, please respond. I really want to understand what's going on.

Why are modern chips so important? Was life bad in America 30 years ago without them?
Why is there a threat of losing their production in Asia? Is there a lot of stealing?
Why didn't you want go to Mexico, for example?
Why does this threaten national security, and not a separate commercial company? Especially the one who does not know how to manage risks and does not know how to play a competent, far-sighted game in the market. He does not know how to protect himself from theft.
Why doesn't this threaten, for example, the open core, which is licensed to be produced by anyone who wants to? One successful USA company did not want to depend on Intel anymore and chose an open core - created own M1 processor.
Why is the protection of their companies in China causing a negative reaction?
Why is it important to be at the top and own the world, and not live quietly, enjoying the successes of others and buying the products of others?

Once again, I'm sorry for the many naive questions.
If you answer, there will be more understanding in the world, which is necessary for all of us.

30 years ago those chips were made in the US, instead of China... created jobs, boosted the US economy... The IC designs were later stolen by china and built in sweat shops, then sold to US companies at such low prices that the US companies were driven out of business.
This is not the only market that china has overtaken this way. And when you hurt the market in any country, it's a national security threat for that country. Because less market dominance leads to a weaker country.
China itself does very little in terms of RnD when it comes to IC's. Most of the designs are still mostly designed in the US, then outsourced to Taiwan, and sometimes those designs get stolen.
Also since pretty much every single chip comes from China and Taiwan, if and when china invades taiwan they would have total market dominance. And could crash markets worldwide.
So tariffs like this give back competitiveness to companies outside of china, giving incentive to build those factories. Reducing market dominance in china.
And the reason why the market dominance of china is a problem is because they're hostile against the free world. No one is worried about Taiwan having such market dominance because Taiwan doesn't take over markets in other countries and repeat the dream of world domination.
If people would just sit back and enjoy the success of someone else, then someone else without that mentality would take over everything. You can't just sit back and let monopolies grow forever

[ELS122]

Also, I'm all for rebuilding some lost industry in the West

You don't want that at all. Just think about how the price of a product is build up. On average, 70% of the price of a mass produced product is earned in the sales process (wholesale and shops). Manufacturing earns like 5% to 10% of the retail price of a product. It is not interesting. The best way to make money is doing the design and sales. Leave manufacturing to low wage countries. Look at Apple for example. It makes no sense to do manufacting in 'the West' because people won't be able to make a living from doing manufacturing jobs. Anyone promising/wishing to bring manufacturing back to the the west is living in a pipe dream. Car manufacturing is the next thing to go away.

Well unchaining the economy from other countries is more reliable.
What would happen to all those companies if china for example declares war, they'd put sanctions on the US, semiconductors wouldn't get to US companies anymore, all those companies would instantly go under. And it would take years to build the infrastructure required to keep producing tech. Which wouldnt be a problem if tariffs were already imposed which incentivized semiconductor fabs to be build in the US.

[S. Petrukhin]

30 years ago those chips were made in the US, instead of China... created jobs, boosted the US economy... The IC designs were later stolen by china and built in sweat shops, then sold to US companies at such low prices that the US companies were driven out of business.
This is not the only market that china has overtaken this way. And when you hurt the market in any country, it's a national security threat for that country. Because less market dominance leads to a weaker country.
China itself does very little in terms of RnD when it comes to IC's. Most of the designs are still mostly designed in the US, then outsourced to Taiwan, and sometimes those designs get stolen.
Also since pretty much every single chip comes from China and Taiwan, if and when china invades taiwan they would have total market dominance. And could crash markets worldwide.
So tariffs like this give back competitiveness to companies outside of china, giving incentive to build those factories. Reducing market dominance in china.
And the reason why the market dominance of china is a problem is because they're hostile against the free world. No one is worried about Taiwan having such market dominance because Taiwan doesn't take over markets in other countries and repeat the dream of world domination.
If people would just sit back and enjoy the success of someone else, then someone else without that mentality would take over everything. You can't just sit back and let monopolies grow forever

I sometimes watch CNN, etc., you worked in vain to retell. 

The most amazing thing is that you don't notice the obvious contradictions.

The Chinese stole, sold to American companies and American companies went bankrupt (apparently, different American companies are meant).
Do you have any questions about those companies that bought cheap from the Chinese and they caused enormous damage to self country?

Did the Chinese steal the machines and equipment too? Were they taken out by barges? At night? Has anyone seen it? 

You're talking about market dominance and that's national security. And why don't you want to be dominated?

The Chinese do not tell us about world domination. They just sell what we need and buy what they need.
They do not impose anything, they do not dictate how we live and what is good.
I'm sorry, but personally you and American politicians are talking about dominance. 
It may be strange, but many don't like it. You have to understand - you don't want to be dominated. 

[S. Petrukhin]

What would happen to all those companies if china for example declares war, they'd put sanctions on the US

Are you not concerned about the fate of other countries for which the US has imposed sanctions?
For example, Cuba neighboring? There are no people, there's only the country and it's not a pity?
Or what?

[ELS122]

Do you have any questions about those companies that bought cheap from the Chinese and they caused enormous damage to self country?

Publicly traded companies have the responsibility to be the most profitable to investors, they are incentivized to ignore any ethical decisions.
And if the nation those companies reside in don't protect it's own markets from foreign deals that undercut anything that can be offered domestically, those companies would obviously take the foreign deals which are cheaper.
So it is the job of the government to protect it's own markets from other nations that undercut them, by imposing tariffs for example.

[S. Petrukhin]

Do you have any questions about those companies that bought cheap from the Chinese and they caused enormous damage to self country?

Publicly traded companies have the responsibility to be the most profitable to investors, they are incentivized to ignore any ethical decisions.
And if the nation those companies reside in don't protect it's own markets from foreign deals that undercut anything that can be offered domestically, those companies would obviously take the foreign deals which are cheaper.
So it is the job of the government to protect it's own markets from other nations that undercut them, by imposing tariffs for example.

This is the first time I've seen such logic...    It's mind-blowing!

Well, unscrupulous companies sold their country for money - the law did not prohibit it.
Then the question to the authorities is: why was no law to protect the country?

And most importantly, if your country is easy to sell and money is the main thing, why are you worried about such a country?
Buy another country... 

[ELS122]

Do you have any questions about those companies that bought cheap from the Chinese and they caused enormous damage to self country?

Publicly traded companies have the responsibility to be the most profitable to investors, they are incentivized to ignore any ethical decisions.
And if the nation those companies reside in don't protect it's own markets from foreign deals that undercut anything that can be offered domestically, those companies would obviously take the foreign deals which are cheaper.
So it is the job of the government to protect it's own markets from other nations that undercut them, by imposing tariffs for example.

This is the first time I've seen such logic...    It's mind-blowing!

Well, unscrupulous companies sold their country for money - the law did not prohibit it.
Then the question to the authorities is: why was no law to protect the country?

And most importantly, if your country is easy to sell and money is the main thing, why are you worried about such a country?
Buy another country... 

That is how every public company works.
A law protecting domestic markets would invoke sanctions or tariffs on imports.
I already explained this to you

[tautech]

Well, unscrupulous companies sold their country for money - the law did not prohibit it.
Then the question to the authorities is: why was no law to protect the country?

This ^^
Because the lawmakers of the time had no public conscience.

The ghost towns in the US are proof of that, now skeletons of their previous selves.
Decades later and we now try to clean up the mess initially created by greedy corporates and inept lawmakers.

[EEVblog]

30 years ago those chips were made in the US, instead of China... created jobs, boosted the US economy... The IC designs were later stolen by china and built in sweat shops, then sold to US companies at such low prices that the US companies were driven out of business.
This is not the only market that china has overtaken this way. And when you hurt the market in any country, it's a national security threat for that country. Because less market dominance leads to a weaker country.
China itself does very little in terms of RnD when it comes to IC's. Most of the designs are still mostly designed in the US, then outsourced to Taiwan, and sometimes those designs get stolen.
Also since pretty much every single chip comes from China and Taiwan, if and when china invades taiwan they would have total market dominance. And could crash markets worldwide.
So tariffs like this give back competitiveness to companies outside of china, giving incentive to build those factories. Reducing market dominance in china.
And the reason why the market dominance of china is a problem is because they're hostile against the free world. No one is worried about Taiwan having such market dominance because Taiwan doesn't take over markets in other countries and repeat the dream of world domination.
If people would just sit back and enjoy the success of someone else, then someone else without that mentality would take over everything. You can't just sit back and let monopolies grow forever

I sometimes watch CNN, etc., you worked in vain to retell. 

The most amazing thing is that you don't notice the obvious contradictions.

The Chinese stole, sold to American companies and American companies went bankrupt (apparently, different American companies are meant).
Do you have any questions about those companies that bought cheap from the Chinese and they caused enormous damage to self country?

Did the Chinese steal the machines and equipment too? Were they taken out by barges? At night? Has anyone seen it? 

You're talking about market dominance and that's national security. And why don't you want to be dominated?

The Chinese do not tell us about world domination. They just sell what we need and buy what they need.
They do not impose anything, they do not dictate how we live and what is good.
I'm sorry, but personally you and American politicians are talking about dominance. 
It may be strange, but many don't like it. You have to understand - you don't want to be dominated. 

S. Petrukhin, I'm going to politely ask you not to post in this thread again.
You are clearly incapable of not turning this political. I can see where this will go.

[S. Petrukhin]

S. Petrukhin, I'm going to politely ask you not to post in this thread again.
You are clearly incapable of not turning this political. I can see where this will go.

 

[soldar]

30 years ago those chips were made in the US, instead of China... created jobs, boosted the US economy... The IC designs were later stolen by china and built in sweat shops, then sold to US companies at such low prices that the US companies were driven out of business.
This is not the only market that china has overtaken this way. And when you hurt the market in any country, it's a national security threat for that country. Because less market dominance leads to a weaker country.
China itself does very little in terms of RnD when it comes to IC's. Most of the designs are still mostly designed in the US, then outsourced to Taiwan, and sometimes those designs get stolen.
Also since pretty much every single chip comes from China and Taiwan, if and when china invades taiwan they would have total market dominance. And could crash markets worldwide.
So tariffs like this give back competitiveness to companies outside of china, giving incentive to build those factories. Reducing market dominance in china.
And the reason why the market dominance of china is a problem is because they're hostile against the free world. No one is worried about Taiwan having such market dominance because Taiwan doesn't take over markets in other countries and repeat the dream of world domination.
If people would just sit back and enjoy the success of someone else, then someone else without that mentality would take over everything. You can't just sit back and let monopolies grow forever

This post is 100% political so I will not give it the reply it deserves. It is 100% BS.

[2N3055]

Quite frankly, whole topic IS political. Others also made political comments.

As for practical side, these are not sanctions (yet?). So everything is still available, but more expensive.
Fact is that even with tariffs, it is still less expensive for many things to get them from China.
So all that will change is price increase for end consumer..
Which will end up in less sales, (because of political reasons) purchasing power of consumers in USA is not able to follow price increase.

This kind of interventionism is simply form of monopolism. When you cannot compete (because you are not capable to actually make better products at lower prices then competition) you punish your own people by forcing them to buy your inferior, expensive products.
It is policy that short term benefits some manufacturers that sell "have to have" products, and hurts everybody else...

Investing in industry and production capacity that would really be competitive is the right way to do it.
But that would need changes in society....

[ELS122]

Quite frankly, whole topic IS political. Others also made political comments.

As for practical side, these are not sanctions (yet?). So everything is still available, but more expensive.
Fact is that even with tariffs, it is still less expensive for many things to get them from China.
So all that will change is price increase for end consumer..
Which will end up in less sales, (because of political reasons) purchasing power of consumers in USA is not able to follow price increase.

This kind of interventionism is simply form of monopolism. When you cannot compete (because you are not capable to actually make better products at lower prices then competition) you punish your own people by forcing them to buy your inferior, expensive products.
It is policy that short term benefits some manufacturers that sell "have to have" products, and hurts everybody else...

Investing in industry and production capacity that would really be competitive is the right way to do it.
But that would need changes in society....

Well I'm for putting whatever the tariffs are on china until other companies from other nations (and domestic) can compete. I wouldn't trade job outsourcing, infrastructure weakening, and reliance on a foreign adversary, just for a 50$ phone...
I dont see how putting tariffs on a dominant market is monopolism. And if you want to say it's just an excuse for more taxes, Then why would they put 100% tariffs on BYD? If it was just to tax goods and not to build infrastructure they wouldnt ban selling BYD cars.

[ELS122]

Good luck with that one, seems very short sighted to me.
They may be able to wack a tariff on direct semiconductors from china, but any company needing a chinese device will find a way around it. Simply import through another country.
If the tariff is phrased as "of chinese origin", then define "chinese origin". Here in the UK "country of origin is defined as the last country that major work was performed on, so if a kit was produced in the UK that contained a chinese semiconductor, then the country of origin of that kit is the UK.
Then again, companies could just shift their manufacturing overseas.
It all depends on the exact wording.

Sanction/tariff circumvention is illegal. Unfortunately it's not actively enforced.

[2N3055]

Quite frankly, whole topic IS political. Others also made political comments.

As for practical side, these are not sanctions (yet?). So everything is still available, but more expensive.
Fact is that even with tariffs, it is still less expensive for many things to get them from China.
So all that will change is price increase for end consumer..
Which will end up in less sales, (because of political reasons) purchasing power of consumers in USA is not able to follow price increase.

This kind of interventionism is simply form of monopolism. When you cannot compete (because you are not capable to actually make better products at lower prices then competition) you punish your own people by forcing them to buy your inferior, expensive products.
It is policy that short term benefits some manufacturers that sell "have to have" products, and hurts everybody else...

Investing in industry and production capacity that would really be competitive is the right way to do it.
But that would need changes in society....

Well I'm for putting whatever the tariffs are on china until other companies from other nations (and domestic) can compete. I wouldn't trade job outsourcing, infrastructure weakening, and reliance on a foreign adversary, just for a 50$ phone...
I dont see how putting tariffs on a dominant market is monopolism. And if you want to say it's just an excuse for more taxes, Then why would they put 100% tariffs on BYD? If it was just to tax goods and not to build infrastructure they wouldnt ban selling BYD cars.

You should read a book or two and educate yourself from sources other than Murica propaganda before writing on geopolitical issues.

Short version? USA companies are greedy and workforce is spoiled in comparison to the rest of the world. So same thing cost 3x times more.  Same thing with EU.

Chinese (or any other nation) are not the reason for that. Problem is at home...

[soldar]

Well I'm for putting whatever the tariffs are on china until other companies from other nations (and domestic) can compete. I wouldn't trade job outsourcing, infrastructure weakening, and reliance on a foreign adversary, just for a 50$ phone...
I dont see how putting tariffs on a dominant market is monopolism. And if you want to say it's just an excuse for more taxes, Then why would they put 100% tariffs on BYD? If it was just to tax goods and not to build infrastructure they wouldnt ban selling BYD cars.

You should read a book or two and educate yourself from sources other than Murica propaganda before writing on geopolitical issues.

Short version? USA companies are greedy and workforce is spoiled in comparison to the rest of the world. So same thing cost 3x times more.  Same thing with EU.

Chinese (or any other nation) are not the reason for that. Problem is at home...

I agree. no country became rich by protectionism. The only result of protectionism is that the people pay higher prices for inferior products.

Countries need to be competitive. That is how countries got rich. By exporting. And countries that tried to stop those imports with tariffs only got poorer, not richer.

[ELS122]

Chinese (or any other nation) are not the reason for that. Problem is at home...

Yeah in the way that there were little to no tariffs on chinease imports.
little no no incentive to produce things domestically.
cheap products subsidized by the government to export, built in sweat shops for insanely low prices, creates an noncompetitive market.
Look at how huawei dominated the market by stealing intellectual property from US companies, and further subsidized by the CCP was pushing out every other brand off the market. Until sanctions were put on huawei. No one can compete in a market like that because of the law, and how chinease companies aren't subject to US laws.

I dont see how saying there should be tariffs on a nation that dominates a market by exploiting slave labor and espionage is propaganda...
Are you saying that other countries should adopt those practices to regain market competitiveness?

[ELS122]

Well I'm for putting whatever the tariffs are on china until other companies from other nations (and domestic) can compete. I wouldn't trade job outsourcing, infrastructure weakening, and reliance on a foreign adversary, just for a 50$ phone...
I dont see how putting tariffs on a dominant market is monopolism. And if you want to say it's just an excuse for more taxes, Then why would they put 100% tariffs on BYD? If it was just to tax goods and not to build infrastructure they wouldnt ban selling BYD cars.

You should read a book or two and educate yourself from sources other than Murica propaganda before writing on geopolitical issues.

Short version? USA companies are greedy and workforce is spoiled in comparison to the rest of the world. So same thing cost 3x times more.  Same thing with EU.

Chinese (or any other nation) are not the reason for that. Problem is at home...

I agree. no country became rich by protectionism. The only result of protectionism is that the people pay higher prices for inferior products.

Countries need to be competitive. That is how countries got rich. By exporting. And countries that tried to stop those imports with tariffs only got poorer, not richer.

Not a country, but every major company exploited protectionism to gain their market share. If for example Sony, Nintendo, etc. didn't use patents to forbid the trade of copied products of theirs, they wouldn't exist.
A country cant be competitive by buying everything. Exporting isnt the same word as importing

[2N3055]

Chinese (or any other nation) are not the reason for that. Problem is at home...

Yeah in the way that there were little to no tariffs on chinease imports.
little no no incentive to produce things domestically.
cheap products subsidized by the government to export, built in sweat shops for insanely low prices, creates an noncompetitive market.
Look at how huawei dominated the market by stealing intellectual property from US companies, and further subsidized by the CCP was pushing out every other brand off the market. Until sanctions were put on huawei. No one can compete in a market like that because of the law, and how chinease companies aren't subject to US laws.

I dont see how saying there should be tariffs on a nation that dominates a market by exploiting slave labor and espionage is propaganda...
Are you saying that other countries should adopt those practices to regain market competitiveness?

I'm not going to dissect all the wrong things you just said.
I'm not going to try to change the way you think.
Your life direction, your beliefs, your moral compass are your own.
Who am I to argue with your worldview.. You do you.. Good luck and all the best.

Have a nice day.

[ELS122]

Chinese (or any other nation) are not the reason for that. Problem is at home...

Yeah in the way that there were little to no tariffs on chinease imports.
little no no incentive to produce things domestically.
cheap products subsidized by the government to export, built in sweat shops for insanely low prices, creates an noncompetitive market.
Look at how huawei dominated the market by stealing intellectual property from US companies, and further subsidized by the CCP was pushing out every other brand off the market. Until sanctions were put on huawei. No one can compete in a market like that because of the law, and how chinease companies aren't subject to US laws.

I dont see how saying there should be tariffs on a nation that dominates a market by exploiting slave labor and espionage is propaganda...
Are you saying that other countries should adopt those practices to regain market competitiveness?

I'm not going to dissect all the wrong things you just said.
I'm not going to try to change the way you think.
Your life direction, your beliefs, your moral compass are your own.
Who am I to argue with your worldview.. You do you.. Good luck and all the best.

Have a nice day.

Only character attacks on this hivemind I mean forum, no discussion or learning. Got it!

[m k]

So society vs individual or market vs company.

Passenger cars are clearly items that are very important.
All kind of protection happenings through the decades.

Investing needs time but BYD is now.

I remember when Nokia went to US, Motorola sued and import was halted.
Argument was that keypad used Motorola patents.
Keypads were bought from Motorola but delay was still there.

Follow the money is still valid.
One longer term example is US trade deficit since Reagan.
One other is poverty, rate is steady.

Tariffs are not needed, just don't buy.

I guess US customers have different world view.
Maybe they can't really see as far as over the border.
When small country politicians are keeping up the importance of export.

[2N3055]

Only character attacks on this hivemind I mean forum, no discussion or learning. Got it!

Like I said, buddy, if you cannot see that what you just said to us is exactly what is wrong with you, I can't help you.
Still, I wish you all the best. I have no ill will against you.

[EEVblog]

Only character attacks on this hivemind I mean forum, no discussion or learning. Got it!

ELS122 please leave this thread.

[EEVblog]

Like I said, buddy, if you cannot see that what you just said to us is exactly what is wrong with you, I can't help you.
Still, I wish you all the best. I have no ill will against you.

2N3055 please leave this thread.

[BillyO]

Just got a notification from DigiKey:

Hello,

On May 1, 2024, Mornsun was placed on a United States sanctions list. DigiKey is committed to complying with all applicable laws and regulations, and has taken appropriate action.

We have suspended all dealings with Mornsun, and immediately blocked all shipments of Mornsun product to customers while continuing to assess the situation. As our customer, we value your partnership and apologize for any inconvenience this has caused.

Please know we will continue to support our customers with thousands of cross references and a broad range of power supply products from leading brands such as RECOM, Murata Power Solutions, MEAN WELL, and more. We encourage you to use our Cross Reference Tool or contact our Customer Support team today to help find other options for your needs:

I thought MEAN WELL was from China too??  Turns out it's from Taiwan.  I guess they are not on the list.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Just got a notification form DigiKey:

Hello,

On May 1, 2024, Mornsun was placed on a United States sanctions list. DigiKey is committed to complying with all applicable laws and regulations, and has taken appropriate action.

We have suspended all dealings with Mornsun, and immediately blocked all shipments of Mornsun product to customers while continuing to assess the situation. As our customer, we value your partnership and apologize for any inconvenience this has caused.

Please know we will continue to support our customers with thousands of cross references and a broad range of power supply products from leading brands such as RECOM, Murata Power Solutions, MEAN WELL, and more. We encourage you to use our Cross Reference Tool or contact our Customer Support team today to help find other options for your needs:

I thought MEAN WELL was from China too??  Turns out it's from Taiwan.  I guess they are not on the list.

Some MW PSUs are made in China

[BillyO]

Some MW PSUs are made in China

And in the USA, so that may have a bearing on it.  I wonder where the parts for the supplies made in the US come from?

[rstofer]

Has everyone forgotten the chip shortages during the COVID pandemic?  We need diversity of location in manufacturing and the end result of manufacturing must be profitable.  Tariffs just nudge decision making for manufacturers.  No single chip manufacturer is going to sink $60B in a domestic factory when they can buy chips from the far east at lower cost.  They need to be nudged a bit.

Just to create a fictional data point, domestic manufacturing of ICs must meet or exceed all military/governmental needs plus some percentage of civilian needs.  If this manufacturer is to be a publicly traded corporation, it must be profitable under all market conditions regardless of how this profit is created.  If they aren't profitable, they certainly won''t get my investment dollars.  There is somewhat more than 7 trillion dollars worth of 401(k) {privately funded retirement} money invested in these companies or $50 trillion dollars of market capitalization in the US alone.  And I expect every stock I hold to increase in value and that only comes from profits or predictable future profits.

Stock price is everything.  It drives the world!  No corporate decision is made without considering the impact on stock price.  That's why corporate executives get stock options.  If they help the company do well, they get some kind of bonus.  'Do well' means the stock price increases.

[BillyO]

Well, this was not a corporate decision.  I'm not sure how increasing costs is going to improve profitability.

[BillyO]

So here are some interesting stats:

The US exports $9.61B worth of integrated circuits to China and $5.34B to Chinese Taipei for a total of about $15B in exports to the Chinese.

The US imports only $2.62B worth of integrated circuits from China and $5.39 from Chinese Taipei for a total of about $8B of imports from the Chinese.

If Chinese Taipei is not included, the balance is even worse.  $9.61B vs. $2.62B 

So, in "protecting" the US IC industry by putting a 50% tariff on Chinese ICs, what if China reciprocates?  How does that spell a win for the US?

This move makes no sense whatsoever.

[jmelson]

I have been making LED regulator boards for a customer at PCBway.  We never got a tariff charge on any of them before.  Now, the last order we made got hit with a tariff of somewhere between 20 - 25%.  My customer had quite a shock about this.  We are now looking for a non-China assembly outfit.

Actually, PCBway just made the bare PCB and then assembled it from parts bought from Digi-Key.  We should only be paying tariff on the board and assembly service, not on the semiconductors on the board.  I don't know how you parse all that out, though.
Jon

[themadhippy]

This move makes no sense whatsoever.

It makes perfect sense to your typical YOU  S  AYE  chanting redneck

[bdunham7]

The US exports $9.61B worth of integrated circuits to China and $5.34B to Chinese Taipei for a total of about $15B in exports to the Chinese.

The US imports only $2.62B worth of integrated circuits from China and $5.39 from Chinese Taipei for a total of about $8B of imports from the Chinese.

Is that just raw components?  I too don't see the point of a protective tariff against a country that we're a net exporter to. 

As a practical matter, a 50% tariff on ultra-low cost lower tier semis isn't going to move the needle as the overall cost with the tariff is still too low for some US company to invest in additional low-grade fab capacity to produce them.  And if they are only applying the tariff to raw components,  then that's just one more reason to use JLPCB instead of an onshore company.

[rstofer]

Well, this was not a corporate decision.  I'm not sure how increasing costs is going to improve profitability.

It won't necessarily hurt profitability but it will increase retail prices and, perhaps, reduce demand.  Will it really matter if an iPhone costs $50 more?   $100 more?  Yes, people will hold onto their existing cell phone a little longer and, perhaps, delay buying their 6 year old the latest and greatest smart phone but maybe those 'nudges' in demand are acceptable.  There are arguments to be made that smart phones for kids is a really bad idea.  Just another 'nudge'.

Yes, tariffs lead to trade wars but, over time, it all works out.  If it doesn't then other measures can be applied.

I just ran into this site: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/full-year-gdp-growth

What we shouldn't do is demonize corporations for trying to increase profits by any means necessary.  In the end, it's about money and nobody in the US wants their lifestyle to 'regress to the mean'.

It has a LOT of econ charts and graphs along with explanations.

Interesting paper on China trade relations with US and what it cost in US jobs since 2001 (about 2 milliion):
https://www.rickscott.senate.gov/2023/1/sens-rick-scott-tom-cotton-colleagues-introduce-bill-to-end-china-s-permanent-normal-trade-status

There really is no way to separate politics and economics...

[BillyO]

Is that just raw components?

The report was from the OEC.  They specifically used the language "integrated circuits" rather than assembled or sub-assembled circuits consisting of integrated circuits.

Their definition is:

Integrated Circuits are a part of Electrical machinery and electronics. They include Monolithic integrated circuits, digital, Monolithic integrated circuits, except digital, Parts of electronic integrated circuits etc, Hybrid integrated circuits, and Electronic integrated circuits/microassemblies, nes.

[tszaboo]

The US exports $9.61B worth of integrated circuits to China and $5.34B to Chinese Taipei for a total of about $15B in exports to the Chinese.

The US imports only $2.62B worth of integrated circuits from China and $5.39 from Chinese Taipei for a total of about $8B of imports from the Chinese.

Is that just raw components?  I too don't see the point of a protective tariff against a country that we're a net exporter to. 

As a practical matter, a 50% tariff on ultra-low cost lower tier semis isn't going to move the needle as the overall cost with the tariff is still too low for some US company to invest in additional low-grade fab capacity to produce them.  And if they are only applying the tariff to raw components,  then that's just one more reason to use JLPCB instead of an onshore company.

Also true. I don't see companies switching from a "1 cent per piece in a reel" LDO to a Linear Technology one, that cost 3 dollar, just because you placed a 50% tariff on the 1 cent LDO.

[bdunham7]

It makes perfect sense to your typical YOU  S  AYE  chanting redneck

Dave asked us to keep politics out of it, although that's pretty difficult with a subject like tariffs that are inherently political in origin.  I'll try to respond to this here without getting bounced.

One doesn't have to be a nationalist redneck to recognize that there is a real danger in outsourcing or "offshoring" industries that we rely on for both economic and national security (defense) interests.  If those things are outsourced to a frenemy that we end up in a cold war with, it could take a few years to reestablish those industries locally or with a friendly ally.  This goes for rare earth minerals, semiconductors, steel, etc.  Consumer electronics and the like are much less important.  So I support the general ideas of policies that maintain at least a capability and a presence of all of those industries in the USA or a reliable ally.  I'd support doing this even if it comes at a significant cost of economic efficiency and would approve of a plan that resulted in permanent excess capacity, something economists abhor.

However, the semiconductor tariff that we're talking about here seems awkward and weird.  Fabs have been placed globally for years in places like Costa Rica, Malaysia, Korea (before its modern development) and so on.  AFAIK, China has yet to dominate this market and there's no immediate danger of them doing so--short of overrunning Taiwan and capturing TSMC.  Someone correct me if I'm misinformed about that.

[JeremyC]

However, the semiconductor tariff that we're talking about here seems awkward and weird.  Fabs have been placed globally for years in places like Costa Rica, Malaysia, Korea (before its modern development) and so on.  AFAIK, China has yet to dominate this market and there's no immediate danger of them doing so--short of overrunning Taiwan and capturing TSMC.  Someone correct me if I'm misinformed about that.

I'm not sure and I would be more careful with this statement...

[m k]

If Chinese Taipei is not included, the balance is even worse.  $9.61B vs. $2.62B 

So, in "protecting" the US IC industry by putting a 50% tariff on Chinese ICs, what if China reciprocates? 

It's possible that they sort of can't, no alternatives, but that's not how it goes.
Last I remember was so that China dropped some food imports and some US farmers became vocal.

Finally this hits China since it's so export oriented economy, I think.
But they will also adapt, maybe the final outcome is BYD made in USA, possibly a goal also.

[eTobey]

This is like putting salt on a wound, called "already struggeling world economy". Do they already have the capability to produce their own semiconductors to compensate?

In general tariffs are good for the own economy, but others might not like this, and answers this with their own.

[soldar]

However, the semiconductor tariff that we're talking about here seems awkward and weird.  Fabs have been placed globally for years in places like Costa Rica, Malaysia, Korea (before its modern development) and so on.  AFAIK, China has yet to dominate this market and there's no immediate danger of them doing so--short of overrunning Taiwan and capturing TSMC.  Someone correct me if I'm misinformed about that.

I'm not sure and I would be more careful with this statement...

There is a lot of fearmongering and a lot of ignorance.

China now is interested in trade and the best way to promote peace, always, is to promote trade, exchange, understanding.

The best way to create conditions for war is to block trade, exchange, understanding.

The thing is that countries enter spirals of fear. Oh, they have bad intentions, we better be hostile and prepare for the worst. Then the other side sees that and does the same and soon a spiral gets out of control and war ensues.

As long as the West trades with China, China is not interested in upsetting the boat. If the West paints China into a corner then we can expect bad things to happen. Putting pressure on any country or people with the justification that they might do bad things is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

"Cet animal est très méchant. Quand on l'attaque il se défend."
This animal is very vicious. When it is attacked it defends itself.
Quote from La Ménagerie, a burlesque song from 1868.

Trade, communication, exchange, understanding are the best things for peace and they are sorely lacking in today's world.

[soldar]

In general tariffs are good for the own economy, but others might not like this, and answers this with their own.

This is a commonly held opinion and I believe it is mistaken. Putting tariffs on a product means a few jobs will be subsidized in that sector by the rest of the country.  There is no gain.

Protectionist countries are countries where, if they exist at all, locally made things are absolute crap and where imported things are extremely expensive.

Protectionism is damaging for the country implementing it.

[coppercone2]

It makes perfect sense to your typical YOU  S  AYE  chanting redneck

Dave asked us to keep politics out of it, although that's pretty difficult with a subject like tariffs that are inherently political in origin.  I'll try to respond to this here without getting bounced.

One doesn't have to be a nationalist redneck to recognize that there is a real danger in outsourcing or "offshoring" industries that we rely on for both economic and national security (defense) interests.  If those things are outsourced to a frenemy that we end up in a cold war with, it could take a few years to reestablish those industries locally or with a friendly ally.  This goes for rare earth minerals, semiconductors, steel, etc.  Consumer electronics and the like are much less important.  So I support the general ideas of policies that maintain at least a capability and a presence of all of those industries in the USA or a reliable ally.  I'd support doing this even if it comes at a significant cost of economic efficiency and would approve of a plan that resulted in permanent excess capacity, something economists abhor.

However, the semiconductor tariff that we're talking about here seems awkward and weird.  Fabs have been placed globally for years in places like Costa Rica, Malaysia, Korea (before its modern development) and so on.  AFAIK, China has yet to dominate this market and there's no immediate danger of them doing so--short of overrunning Taiwan and capturing TSMC.  Someone correct me if I'm misinformed about that.

thats the wrong mindset. consumer electronics are super important. russia dedicated its electronics industry to defense. they got the good parts. consumers got 3rd rate crap. this caused massive discontent in the population. people like washers . It did little good for them to have better rocket engines when people could not get a color TV

you don't want your country to be a militarized low tech ghetto

also open industry makes the progress. secret programs stall out because they risk losing secrecy.

they need a plan to keep goods being made and not rely on the idea that people don't need it. i hope its there. especially with the low shelf life of current high end consumer product, we are basically on a subscription service before something breaks.

[floobydust]

However, the semiconductor tariff that we're talking about here seems awkward and weird.  Fabs have been placed globally for years in places like Costa Rica, Malaysia, Korea (before its modern development) and so on.  AFAIK, China has yet to dominate this market and there's no immediate danger of them doing so--short of overrunning Taiwan and capturing TSMC.  Someone correct me if I'm misinformed about that.

I'm not sure and I would be more careful with this statement...

There is a lot of fearmongering and a lot of ignorance.

China now is interested in trade and the best way to promote peace, always, is to promote trade, exchange, understanding.

The best way to create conditions for war is to block trade, exchange, understanding.

The thing is that countries enter spirals of fear. Oh, they have bad intentions, we better be hostile and prepare for the worst. Then the other side sees that and does the same and soon a spiral gets out of control and war ensues.

As long as the West trades with China, China is not interested in upsetting the boat. If the West paints China into a corner then we can expect bad things to happen. Putting pressure on any country or people with the justification that they might do bad things is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

"Cet animal est très méchant. Quand on l'attaque il se défend."
This animal is very vicious. When it is attacked it defends itself.
Quote from La Ménagerie, a burlesque song from 1868.

Trade, communication, exchange, understanding are the best things for peace and they are sorely lacking in today's world.

Ha! Such a nice view of the world, excellent propaganda!
china has been dumping products for many years. Manipulated their currency, massive overcapacity in manufacturing.

We all love the artificially low prices though.

At the same time it's basically economic warfare and has intentionally caused industries to go bust. There is a long-term goal.
The West's demise in manufacturing is its own fault, corporations love outsourcing and have zero commitment to doing anything local. There is no nationalism on Wall Street. We have higher labour costs, some responsibility to the environment- which china desecrates.

Trade wars are real and happening right now.

[tautech]

Trade wars are real and happening right now.

As has been the case for the last couple of 100 years.
The Opium wars was the start of it............

[floobydust]

Has anyone actually been able to find the list of the semiconductors with the new tariffs ?
I tried and it all seems to be based on HST codes.

Trade wars are real and happening right now.

As has been the case for the last couple of 100 years.
The Opium wars was the start of it............

OT- regarding the Opium Wars and 100 years of Humiliation, they're paying us back hundred fold manufacturing opioids and illicit street drugs. Why wouldn't they?

[thm_w]

Has anyone actually been able to find the list of the semiconductors with the new tariffs ?
I tried and it all seems to be based on HST codes.

Yes that is how tariffs work, HST code and COO. Those are required to be declared when exporting significant product.
One IC could be made/packaged in 3+ different countries.

https://www.tariffnumber.com/2024/85415900

[soldar]

Ha! Such a nice view of the world, excellent propaganda!
china has been dumping products for many years. Manipulated their currency, massive overcapacity in manufacturing.

We all love the artificially low prices though.

At the same time it's basically economic warfare and has intentionally caused industries to go bust. There is a long-term goal.
The West's demise in manufacturing is its own fault, corporations love outsourcing and have zero commitment to doing anything local. There is no nationalism on Wall Street. We have higher labour costs, some responsibility to the environment- which china desecrates.

Trade wars are real and happening right now.

Yes, there is a trade war and it is not China starting it. China is interested in free trade right now which is quite ironic if you think about it because a couple centuries ago it was Europeans going to Asia and demanding free trade. "Buy my stuff or else."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_Expedition

I am the opinion that trade, commerce, communication are good for the economy, good for peace, good for humanity.

I am of the opinion that when another country is buying a lot of stuff from your country it is not advisable to shoot at your customers.

Just my opinion.

[tautech]

Has anyone actually been able to find the list of the semiconductors with the new tariffs ?
I tried and it all seems to be based on HST codes.

Trade wars are real and happening right now.

As has been the case for the last couple of 100 years.
The Opium wars was the start of it............

OT- regarding the Opium Wars and 100 years of Humiliation, they're paying us back hundred fold manufacturing opioids and illicit street drugs. Why wouldn't they?

Hardly OT.
Instead about trade, wanted or not.

But as Bill pointed out, it's about the balance of trade which again is currently skewed but seemingly in the US's favor.
Why they then would want to place tariffs on products they seemingly need and in doing so increase costs of many products to their people and risk tit for tat reciprocal tariffs is beyond me. 

Instead OTT when just a few years back 10% tariff was placed on TE of China origin and now they wanna lump on more. 

[soldar]

OT- regarding the Opium Wars and 100 years of Humiliation, they're paying us back hundred fold manufacturing opioids and illicit street drugs. Why wouldn't they?

WTF are you talking about? China, Japan and other developed Asian countries are a million times stricter than western countries.

Really.

[JeremyC]

OT- regarding the Opium Wars and 100 years of Humiliation, they're paying us back hundred fold manufacturing opioids and illicit street drugs. Why wouldn't they?

WTF are you talking about? China, Japan and other developed Asian countries are a million times stricter than western countries.

Really.

Really? ...check links below:
https://www.npr.org/2024/04/16/1244964595/fentanyl-china-precursor-overdose
https://www.uscc.gov/sites/default/files/2021-08/Illicit_Fentanyl_from_China-An_Evolving_Global_Operation.pdf

[HuronKing]

OT- regarding the Opium Wars and 100 years of Humiliation, they're paying us back hundred fold manufacturing opioids and illicit street drugs. Why wouldn't they?

WTF are you talking about? China, Japan and other developed Asian countries are a million times stricter than western countries.

Really.

He means that those countries are supplying illicit drugs to Western countries as a means of undermining society. This is pretty well documented:
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/07/fentanyl-china-war-on-drugs-00005920

This article speaks directly to it:
https://www.economist.com/china/2018/12/15/the-west-once-flooded-china-with-opium-china-is-returning-the-favour

[floobydust]

Anyone remember the Foxxconn Wisconsin LCD plant? The one Trump tooted his horn about.
Finally it's realized it will never happen. No on-shoring of LCD panels, no "bring it back to 'merica". Despite Wisconsin taxpayers paying $500M for the land and infrastructure, the tax concessions etc. That on-shoring attempt is a massive failure. Microsoft is turning it into an AI+cloud campus, I think investing $3.3B.

OT- regarding the Opium Wars and 100 years of Humiliation, they're paying us back hundred fold manufacturing opioids and illicit street drugs. Why wouldn't they?

WTF are you talking about? China, Japan and other developed Asian countries are a million times stricter than western countries.

Really.

"Stricter?" Manufacturing opioids, precursors has been perfectly legal in china, many teapot pharmaceutical companies providing payback for the 100 Years of Humiliation. The State looks the other way. 2019 they added a bit of oversight but it's of course a farce. Fentanyl Flow to the United States

OT- regarding the Opium Wars and 100 years of Humiliation, they're paying us back hundred fold manufacturing opioids and illicit street drugs. Why wouldn't they?

Hardly OT.
Instead about trade, wanted or not. [...]

This thread is filled with hydrogen and a few other substances. It could of course explode soon.
We have the West doing poorly with local hi tech manufacturing, a lack of a plan, no nationalism and Wall Street/Corporate priority #1 is maximum profit regardless of the losses to a nation. china is superior in all that.
Don't forget Analog Devices acquired Linear Tech and shut down their fab in California, laid off staff and now outsources it. Do they give a fuck about America and on-shoring. No. It's all about profit. Would tariffs have inspired them to keep that USA fab alive? Then it's whining "there are no qualified people" because they were out of work thanks to you Mr. Big Co.
Tariffs ain't gonna move anything back the the USA, it might get a few votes and the illusion of taking action, but it's a clown car move without a long-term strategy.

[themadhippy]

He means that those countries are supplying illicit drugs to Western countries as a means of undermining society. :

And of course the  american opiate problem had nothing to do with the over prescription of opiate based medicine and then  cutting off the supply over night.

[BillyO]

Okay, can we get back to the effects of the tariffs mentioned in the OP please?  Otherwise Dave will shut down the discussion.

[tautech]

OT- regarding the Opium Wars and 100 years of Humiliation, they're paying us back hundred fold manufacturing opioids and illicit street drugs. Why wouldn't they?

Hardly OT.
Instead about trade, wanted or not. [...]

This thread is filled with hydrogen and a few other substances. It could of course explode soon.
We have the West doing poorly with local hi tech manufacturing, a lack of a plan, no nationalism and Wall Street/Corporate priority #1 is maximum profit regardless of the losses to a nation. china is superior in all that.
Don't forget Analog Devices acquired Linear Tech and shut down their fab in California, laid off staff and now outsources it. Do they give a fuck about America and on-shoring. No. It's all about profit. Would tariffs have inspired them to keep that USA fab alive? Then it's whining "there are no qualified people" because they were out of work thanks to you Mr. Big Co.
Tariffs ain't gonna move anything back the the USA, it might get a few votes and the illusion of taking action, but it's a clown car move without a long-term strategy.

Yup, very well put.

It seems just a few of us see the bigger picture.

[thm_w]

No, a few of you keep ranting on about politics when it is not the purpose of this thread. Even after being reminded multiple times.

[bdunham7]

Tariffs ain't gonna move anything back the the USA, it might get a few votes and the illusion of taking action, but it's a clown car move without a long-term strategy.

It doesn't have to move anything back to the USA for it to be effective.  Just encouraging the moving of manfacturing to Mexico, Argentina, India, Costa Rica, Korea, Malaysia or the Phillipines is sufficient to meet at least some of their goals.  I don't think anyone is under the illusion that an economy where fast food workers get $20+ is going to be cost effective at semiconductor manufacturing.

[schmitt trigger]

I am also of the opinion that tariffs,

• Follow the laws of unintended consequences, causing unforeseen market shifts, not always positive.
  
  
• People will always find loopholes to circumvent them.
  
  
• And lastly, tariffs tend to outlive its original raison d'être.
  
  There are many examples, but a particularly egregious one is the "Chicken Tax" applied to light trucks imported into the US.  60 years old and counting.
  
  
  

[soldar]

It doesn't have to move anything back to the USA for it to be effective.  Just encouraging the moving of manfacturing to Mexico, Argentina, India, Costa Rica, Korea, Malaysia or the Phillipines is sufficient to meet at least some of their goals.  I don't think anyone is under the illusion that an economy where fast food workers get $20+ is going to be cost effective at semiconductor manufacturing.

We live in a global globe. China and Chinese companies are expanding everywhere. They can easily build a factory in any other country. Chinese capital, Chinese management and maybe even Chinese workers. Or local workers, no matter. Now what?

[BillyO]

We live in a global globe.

What?  The earth's not flat?

But on the rest of it I think you are 100% right.  No country has the skill or the will to address and service a market, no matter what that market is, like China.

[floobydust]

Nobody here knows what IC's are affected. Distributors haven't said a peep. Surprise! Your input costs have jumped up... I think it's too fresh or new when I searched  el speedy gov't.
HST 8542.31.0001 "Electronic integrated circuits: processors and controllers" is on Tariffs List 2, 2018... source
Long read about the Section 301 tariffs, for anyone interested in digging in: 05.13.2024 Four Year Review of China Tech Transfer Section 301 (Final) rev.pdf

No, a few of you keep ranting on about politics when it is not the purpose of this thread. Even after being reminded multiple times.

What is the purpose of the thread, Mr. Policeman? Again- tariffs, sanctions are political and affect EE's, the industry. Any discussion avoiding that is impossible.

Did you know Canada used to make appliances, IC's, resistors, capacitors, radio, TV etc. and we've joined Detroit in having a wasteland of nothing. We whore our natural resources and that keeps the country afloat, along with borrowing towards our massive national debt.

Economists go on about how great free trade is, as stupid as they are- it's all unicorns and rainbows, such nice trade - but no consideration of the effects of trade wars, outsourcing etc.
If you expect love for a foreign country subsidizing/dumping products, I don't feel it. I watch the mass extinctions in manufacturing here and it's not letting up.

[SiliconWizard]

We live in a global globe.

What?  The earth's not flat?

It's all about the curvature. What do you consider flat?

[m k]

I am of the opinion that when another country is buying a lot of stuff from your country it is not advisable to shoot at your customers.

Up to a point, it seems.

But you must still start your analyze from a point where shooter is acting rationally.
It's just rationality you don't understand, yet.

My understanding is still lacking, longer term existence is on possibility.

E,
so it's a war of money and wellbeing.
At some point the thing must flip from positive to negative and away from competition.
So there are measurements of some kind, hopefully.

US trade deficit or debt are clearly not around their limits yet.
US poverty rate is steady, but maybe time is not long enough.
EU central bank has an inflation rate limit that is more like a noose.

One of our earlier PMs has The Prince that has many underlinings.
Maybe that's a common thing, maybe it all is very pragmatic and it's just not obvious enough.

[tszaboo]

Tariffs ain't gonna move anything back the the USA, it might get a few votes and the illusion of taking action, but it's a clown car move without a long-term strategy.

It doesn't have to move anything back to the USA for it to be effective.  Just encouraging the moving of manfacturing to Mexico, Argentina, India, Costa Rica, Korea, Malaysia or the Phillipines is sufficient to meet at least some of their goals.  I don't think anyone is under the illusion that an economy where fast food workers get $20+ is going to be cost effective at semiconductor manufacturing.

I don't think semiconductor fabrication is that labor intensive. You have factories by TI, AD and others in the states. I think labor costs are estimated 20% of total costs, so with a 50% increase in your product price (with import tax), you can pay 250% more for workers and still be competitive. So why aren't you? Why does an opamp cost 5 dollars from Linear Technology? It's not the labor costs, not the machine costs, same machines. Not the NRE, that was paid back more than a decade ago. Maybe it has to do with the bottom line, and the fact that the Chinese are willing to work with smaller margins to gain market.
Now, I totally agree, that you will probably not get back Flash memories and SOC manufacturing back, where margins are minimal, and that's what this is aimed at.

[JeremyC]

What is the purpose of the thread, Mr. Policeman? Again- tariffs, sanctions are political and affect EE's, the industry. Any discussion avoiding that is impossible.

Did you know Canada used to make appliances, IC's, resistors, capacitors, radio, TV etc. and we've joined Detroit in having a wasteland of nothing. We whore our natural resources and that keeps the country afloat, along with borrowing towards our massive national debt.

Economists go on about how great free trade is, as stupid as they are- it's all unicorns and rainbows, such nice trade - but no consideration of the effects of trade wars, outsourcing etc.
If you expect love for a foreign country subsidizing/dumping products, I don't feel it. I watch the mass extinctions in manufacturing here and it's not letting up.

@floobydust
“What is the purpose of the thread, Mr. Policeman? Again- tariffs, sanctions are political and affect EE's, the industry. Any discussion avoiding that is impossible.”

Of course, I fully agree.

I’m not trying to discredit country like China for not having smart/educated people but most of their technology have been obtain by using their scientist knowledgeable since 1948 to reverse engineering and stilling inventions created by truly motivated people in countries with healthy capitalism oriented system and not thief directed by systems with marxism's utopia. Why people in china aka “People's Republic of China” can not communicate with rest of the world without government interception? ...come on, it’s dictatorship! Taiwan it’s last place who maintain the TRUE Chines culture.
It recalls the USSR who was glorifying “we are all the members of this globe” … and behind the scene there were preparing taking the entire world and sacrificing own alliance.

People, just wake up !

[soldar]

I’m not trying to discredit country like China for not having smart/educated people but most of their technology have been obtain by using their scientist knowledgeable since 1948 to reverse engineering and stilling inventions created by truly motivated people in countries with healthy capitalism oriented system and not thief directed by systems with marxism's utopia. Why people in china aka “People's Republic of China” can not communicate with rest of the world without government interception? ...come on, it’s dictatorship! Taiwan it’s last place who maintain the TRUE Chines culture.
It recalls the USSR who was glorifying “we are all the members of this globe” … and behind the scene there were preparing taking the entire world and sacrificing own alliance.

People, just wake up !

Simplistic BS. You would do well in doing a bit of reading.

[vad]

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1790385220983677016

I just imposed a series of tariffs on goods made in China:
 
25% on steel and aluminum,
50% on semiconductors,
100% on EVs,
And 50% on solar panels.
 
China is determined to dominate these industries.
I'm determined to ensure America leads the world in them.

Don't make me lock this thread or delete posts because you want to talk politics.
If you want to talk about the practical aspects of this, without the politics, please do so, otherwise do not post in this thread.

My first question is how does this work with say Aliexpress or LCSC etc component orders?

The tariffs on Chinese semiconductors are not new. The tariff will go up from the current 25% to 50% next year. Here is what ChatGPT says about it:

The United States currently imposes tariffs on semiconductors imported from China under Section 301 of the Trade Act of 1974. As part of recent policy updates, the Biden administration has decided to increase these tariffs. Initially set at 25%, the tariff on Chinese semiconductors is set to rise to 50% by 2025. This decision follows a comprehensive review of the tariffs originally imposed during the Trump administration, which were meant to address unfair trade practices by China, such as forced technology transfers and intellectual property theft

I do not think there will be any change in the process of ordering hobby-volume quantities from LCSC or AliExpress.

P.S. The measure has bipartisan support and should not cause political divide in the US.

[vad]

BYD sales were down 43% on 1Q 2024 so Tesla is ahead again

Who is BYD?

The largest EV manufacturer in the world, selling 3 million EVs in 2023 (1.6M BEVs and 1.4M PHEVs), compared to the 1.8M sold by Tesla.

[JeremyC]

I’m not trying to discredit country like China for not having smart/educated people but most of their technology have been obtain by using their scientist knowledgeable since 1948 to reverse engineering and stilling inventions created by truly motivated people in countries with healthy capitalism oriented system and not thief directed by systems with marxism's utopia. Why people in china aka “People's Republic of China” can not communicate with rest of the world without government interception? ...come on, it’s dictatorship! Taiwan it’s last place who maintain the TRUE Chines culture.
It recalls the USSR who was glorifying “we are all the members of this globe” … and behind the scene there were preparing taking the entire world and sacrificing own alliance.

People, just wake up !

Simplistic BS. You would do well in doing a bit of reading.

It depends what you’re calling “readings” ...communism writings? . I read enough, including marx’s kapital… to understand that any form of “communism” it’s only excuse to obtain a dictatorship.

I’m not trying to insult anyone, but any form of socialism/communism it’s utopia.
From my observation Germany and Sweden are the prime examples…

[DimitriP]

BYD sales were down 43% on 1Q 2024 so Tesla is ahead again

Who is BYD?

The largest EV manufacturer in the world, selling 3 million EVs in 2023 (1.6M BEVs and 1.4M PHEVs), compared to the 1.8M sold by Tesla.

Tesla sells more cars to more countries.

TL;DR below (feel free to skip it)


Fun facts: Tesla sells a "larger" number of vehicles in China than BYD sells in Europe
https://tridenstechnology.com/byd-sales-statistics/

Tesla also sold more vehicles in a single european country than BYD in all of EU combined.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/tesla-sales-by-country

And for reference....Jupiter is the largest planet in our solar system.
https://phys.org/news/2022-09-smallest-planet-pluto-closer-sizes.html
and no one is planning on moving there. Nothing against Jupiter per se, humans are partial to breathing.

[vad]

BYD sales were down 43% on 1Q 2024 so Tesla is ahead again

Who is BYD?

The largest EV manufacturer in the world, selling 3 million EVs in 2023 (1.6M BEVs and 1.4M PHEVs), compared to the 1.8M sold by Tesla.

Tesla sells more cars to more countries.

More than which company? Tesla sold 1.8 million EVs worldwide in 2023, while BYD sold 3 million EVs in the same period.

[DimitriP]

BYD sales were down 43% on 1Q 2024 so Tesla is ahead again

Who is BYD?

The largest EV manufacturer in the world, selling 3 million EVs in 2023 (1.6M BEVs and 1.4M PHEVs), compared to the 1.8M sold by Tesla.

Tesla sells more cars to more countries.

More than which company? Tesla sold 1.8 million EVs worldwide in 2023, while BYD sold 3 million EVs in the same period.

BYD sold ~ 15K in Europe
Tesla sold  ~18K in Holland alone (included in the links you took  the time to exclude above )
( as for selective quoting of posts (ommiting information) ..it used to be frowned upon   )

[BillyO]

It's all about the curvature. What do you consider flat?

Not the earth, that's for sure.  Just that I've run into too many flat earthers recently.  What kind of brain damage do you need to develop the hubris  discredit all of human achievement and scientific advancement over that last 3 millennia with the only evidence being "I can't see nay curve".  Those people need help.

[vad]

BYD sold ~ 15K in Europe
Tesla sold  ~18K in Holland alone (included in the links you took  the time to exclude above )
( as for selective quoting of posts (ommiting information) ..it used to be frowned upon   )

Sounds like a logical fallacy.

PSA Group sold zero Peugeot vehicles in the USA. Aston Martin sells 1,000-2,000 cars annually in the US.

Does this make Aston Martin a larger carmaker than PSA Group (the maker of Peugeot, Citroën, and Opel)?

[.RC.]

Did you know Canada used to make appliances, IC's, resistors, capacitors, radio, TV etc. and we've joined Detroit in having a wasteland of nothing. We whore our natural resources and that keeps the country afloat, along with borrowing towards our massive national debt.

You spelled Australia wrong there, it is not spelt Canada.

[BillyO]

You spelled Australia wrong there, it is not spelt Canada.

Yeah, crikey!  It's not even spelled Canada either!

[floobydust]

Tariffs are just another tax, that revenue going to the US government.
Why else increase it for solar panels? USA is never going to manufacture solar, they've tried and it just wasted money. They need to admit defeat by superior china. Now at 80-85% of the world's polysilicon production, causing a glut right now and prices are dangerously low. You can't compete on this USA, blame it on Uyghur labour but ultimately cheap solar is needed world-wide.

"Australia’s hopes of building its own solar supply industry – dubbed as the Solar Sunshot – has received a boost with news that the US government is doubling its import tariffs on China solar cells." source

Australia spending $1B, too long 5 years to make a polysilicon plant so "we'll just buy that from china". It looks like the plan is 2 years before (trained kangaroos?) make solar panels there. Is this going to work?
Canada is too much a zombie nation to make anything, see we saved $1B by giving up lol.

[eTobey]

Not the earth, that's for sure.  Just that I've run into too many flat earthers recently.  What kind of brain damage do you need to develop the hubris  discredit all of human achievement and scientific advancement over that last 3 millennia with the only evidence being "I can't see nay curve".  Those people need help.

Seems like some people want to believe something, or want a leader. You can give them anything and they go with it. It even works with junkfood and other products.

This is why we have religions, dictators and bad food.

[soldar]

It depends what you’re calling “readings” ...communism writings? . I read enough, including marx’s kapital… to understand that any form of “communism” it’s only excuse to obtain a dictatorship.

I’m not trying to insult anyone, but any form of socialism/communism it’s utopia.
From my observation Germany and Sweden are the prime examples…

 I’m very sorry, but I told you I’m not allowed to argue unless you’ve paid.

[soldar]

You spelled Australia wrong there, it is not spelt Canada.

Yeah, crikey!  It's not even spelled Canada either!

In British English, both “spelt” and “spelled” are used, but “spelt” is a bit more common. So “spelled incorrectly” and “spelt incorrectly” are both accepted. In American English, “spelled” is standard, so the correct version is “spelled incorrectly.”

https://quillbot.com/blog/spelt-or-spelled/

[5U4GB]

You spelled Australia wrong there, it is not spelt Canada.

Yeah, crikey!  It's not even spelled Canada either!

I think he meant that spelt is produced in Canadia.  By Canadans.

[m k]

Maybe US has a crystal ball that predicts a flipping trade if left alone.
Or maybe there's a message that only Taiwan can do tariff free trade from Formosa.

I've heard that somewhere in central Europe garden fences are made from active solar panels.
Just a thought against protectionism.

I'd say that one core problem in USA is too powerful lobbies of old technology.
And new technology can't compensate, labor cost doesn't help either.

Military needs chips and high quality "raw" materials, for that old machinery is no good.
Maximal short term profitability is no good either, or it is, but only for current owner.

[BillyO]

I think he meant that spelt is produced in Canadia.  By Canadans.

It is, and it's spelt spelt here.  They are thinking of making a new cereal called Spelties because the tariff  on Wheaties is too high and our champions have nothing to eat for breakfast which has become breakslow due to malnutrition.

[soldar]

I think he meant that spelt is produced in Canadia.  By Canadans.

It is, and it's spelt spelt here.  They are thinking of making a new cereal called Spelties because the tariff  on Wheaties is too high and our champions have nothing to eat for breakfast which has become breakslow due to malnutrition.

You might have dreamt that

[vad]

Maybe US has a crystal ball that predicts a flipping trade if left alone.
Or maybe there's a message that only Taiwan can do tariff free trade from Formosa.

I've heard that somewhere in central Europe garden fences are made from active solar panels.
Just a thought against protectionism.

I'd say that one core problem in USA is too powerful lobbies of old technology.
And new technology can't compensate, labor cost doesn't help either.

Military needs chips and high quality "raw" materials, for that old machinery is no good.
Maximal short term profitability is no good either, or it is, but only for current owner.

The case of tariffs on solar panels is a curious one. On the one hand, the current administration has pushed forward radical green policies, such as the cancellation of the Keystone XL pipeline, a moratorium on oil and gas leasing on federal lands, and the introduction of ridiculous emissions standards. On the other hand, they seem to undermine their green agenda by increasing tariffs on solar panels from the main supplier countries. It looks like the administration is protecting local manufacturing because the solar panel tariffs apply not only to China but also to Malaysia, Thailand, and Vietnam - the main solar panel manufacturers.

[all_repair]

Back to semicon.  Digikey and mouser are selling outside US.  They would need to setup branch outside China, US or relocated to another place, to be competitive.

[forrestc]

Back to semicon.  Digikey and mouser are selling outside US.  They would need to setup branch outside China, US or relocated to another place, to be competitive.

Not necessarily.

The US has provisions for what is known as a Foreign Trade Zone. These are areas which are treated as being outside the US for customs purposes.  So an international distributor of goods can locate a warehouse on US soil and not have to pay dirty on any goods not being forwarded to the rest of the US.

In addition, the US will allow a company that initially paid tariffs on goods which were later exported without being used in the US to receive 99% of the duties paid back as a refund.  This is known as a duty drawback.