US 50% China Semiconductor Tariff

[BillyO]

We live in a global globe.

What?  The earth's not flat?

But on the rest of it I think you are 100% right.  No country has the skill or the will to address and service a market, no matter what that market is, like China.

[floobydust]

Nobody here knows what IC's are affected. Distributors haven't said a peep. Surprise! Your input costs have jumped up... I think it's too fresh or new when I searched  el speedy gov't.
HST 8542.31.0001 "Electronic integrated circuits: processors and controllers" is on Tariffs List 2, 2018... source
Long read about the Section 301 tariffs, for anyone interested in digging in: 05.13.2024 Four Year Review of China Tech Transfer Section 301 (Final) rev.pdf

No, a few of you keep ranting on about politics when it is not the purpose of this thread. Even after being reminded multiple times.

What is the purpose of the thread, Mr. Policeman? Again- tariffs, sanctions are political and affect EE's, the industry. Any discussion avoiding that is impossible.

Did you know Canada used to make appliances, IC's, resistors, capacitors, radio, TV etc. and we've joined Detroit in having a wasteland of nothing. We whore our natural resources and that keeps the country afloat, along with borrowing towards our massive national debt.

Economists go on about how great free trade is, as stupid as they are- it's all unicorns and rainbows, such nice trade - but no consideration of the effects of trade wars, outsourcing etc.
If you expect love for a foreign country subsidizing/dumping products, I don't feel it. I watch the mass extinctions in manufacturing here and it's not letting up.

[SiliconWizard]

We live in a global globe.

What?  The earth's not flat?

It's all about the curvature. What do you consider flat?

[m k]

I am of the opinion that when another country is buying a lot of stuff from your country it is not advisable to shoot at your customers.

Up to a point, it seems.

But you must still start your analyze from a point where shooter is acting rationally.
It's just rationality you don't understand, yet.

My understanding is still lacking, longer term existence is on possibility.

E,
so it's a war of money and wellbeing.
At some point the thing must flip from positive to negative and away from competition.
So there are measurements of some kind, hopefully.

US trade deficit or debt are clearly not around their limits yet.
US poverty rate is steady, but maybe time is not long enough.
EU central bank has an inflation rate limit that is more like a noose.

One of our earlier PMs has The Prince that has many underlinings.
Maybe that's a common thing, maybe it all is very pragmatic and it's just not obvious enough.

[tszaboo]

Tariffs ain't gonna move anything back the the USA, it might get a few votes and the illusion of taking action, but it's a clown car move without a long-term strategy.

It doesn't have to move anything back to the USA for it to be effective.  Just encouraging the moving of manfacturing to Mexico, Argentina, India, Costa Rica, Korea, Malaysia or the Phillipines is sufficient to meet at least some of their goals.  I don't think anyone is under the illusion that an economy where fast food workers get $20+ is going to be cost effective at semiconductor manufacturing.

I don't think semiconductor fabrication is that labor intensive. You have factories by TI, AD and others in the states. I think labor costs are estimated 20% of total costs, so with a 50% increase in your product price (with import tax), you can pay 250% more for workers and still be competitive. So why aren't you? Why does an opamp cost 5 dollars from Linear Technology? It's not the labor costs, not the machine costs, same machines. Not the NRE, that was paid back more than a decade ago. Maybe it has to do with the bottom line, and the fact that the Chinese are willing to work with smaller margins to gain market.
Now, I totally agree, that you will probably not get back Flash memories and SOC manufacturing back, where margins are minimal, and that's what this is aimed at.

[JeremyC]

What is the purpose of the thread, Mr. Policeman? Again- tariffs, sanctions are political and affect EE's, the industry. Any discussion avoiding that is impossible.

Did you know Canada used to make appliances, IC's, resistors, capacitors, radio, TV etc. and we've joined Detroit in having a wasteland of nothing. We whore our natural resources and that keeps the country afloat, along with borrowing towards our massive national debt.

Economists go on about how great free trade is, as stupid as they are- it's all unicorns and rainbows, such nice trade - but no consideration of the effects of trade wars, outsourcing etc.
If you expect love for a foreign country subsidizing/dumping products, I don't feel it. I watch the mass extinctions in manufacturing here and it's not letting up.

@floobydust
“What is the purpose of the thread, Mr. Policeman? Again- tariffs, sanctions are political and affect EE's, the industry. Any discussion avoiding that is impossible.”

Of course, I fully agree.

I’m not trying to discredit country like China for not having smart/educated people but most of their technology have been obtain by using their scientist knowledgeable since 1948 to reverse engineering and stilling inventions created by truly motivated people in countries with healthy capitalism oriented system and not thief directed by systems with marxism's utopia. Why people in china aka “People's Republic of China” can not communicate with rest of the world without government interception? ...come on, it’s dictatorship! Taiwan it’s last place who maintain the TRUE Chines culture.
It recalls the USSR who was glorifying “we are all the members of this globe” … and behind the scene there were preparing taking the entire world and sacrificing own alliance.

People, just wake up !

[soldar]

I’m not trying to discredit country like China for not having smart/educated people but most of their technology have been obtain by using their scientist knowledgeable since 1948 to reverse engineering and stilling inventions created by truly motivated people in countries with healthy capitalism oriented system and not thief directed by systems with marxism's utopia. Why people in china aka “People's Republic of China” can not communicate with rest of the world without government interception? ...come on, it’s dictatorship! Taiwan it’s last place who maintain the TRUE Chines culture.
It recalls the USSR who was glorifying “we are all the members of this globe” … and behind the scene there were preparing taking the entire world and sacrificing own alliance.

People, just wake up !

Simplistic BS. You would do well in doing a bit of reading.

[vad]

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1790385220983677016

I just imposed a series of tariffs on goods made in China:
 
25% on steel and aluminum,
50% on semiconductors,
100% on EVs,
And 50% on solar panels.
 
China is determined to dominate these industries.
I'm determined to ensure America leads the world in them.

Don't make me lock this thread or delete posts because you want to talk politics.
If you want to talk about the practical aspects of this, without the politics, please do so, otherwise do not post in this thread.

My first question is how does this work with say Aliexpress or LCSC etc component orders?

The tariffs on Chinese semiconductors are not new. The tariff will go up from the current 25% to 50% next year. Here is what ChatGPT says about it:

The United States currently imposes tariffs on semiconductors imported from China under Section 301 of the Trade Act of 1974. As part of recent policy updates, the Biden administration has decided to increase these tariffs. Initially set at 25%, the tariff on Chinese semiconductors is set to rise to 50% by 2025. This decision follows a comprehensive review of the tariffs originally imposed during the Trump administration, which were meant to address unfair trade practices by China, such as forced technology transfers and intellectual property theft

I do not think there will be any change in the process of ordering hobby-volume quantities from LCSC or AliExpress.

P.S. The measure has bipartisan support and should not cause political divide in the US.

[vad]

BYD sales were down 43% on 1Q 2024 so Tesla is ahead again

Who is BYD?

The largest EV manufacturer in the world, selling 3 million EVs in 2023 (1.6M BEVs and 1.4M PHEVs), compared to the 1.8M sold by Tesla.

[JeremyC]

I’m not trying to discredit country like China for not having smart/educated people but most of their technology have been obtain by using their scientist knowledgeable since 1948 to reverse engineering and stilling inventions created by truly motivated people in countries with healthy capitalism oriented system and not thief directed by systems with marxism's utopia. Why people in china aka “People's Republic of China” can not communicate with rest of the world without government interception? ...come on, it’s dictatorship! Taiwan it’s last place who maintain the TRUE Chines culture.
It recalls the USSR who was glorifying “we are all the members of this globe” … and behind the scene there were preparing taking the entire world and sacrificing own alliance.

People, just wake up !

Simplistic BS. You would do well in doing a bit of reading.

It depends what you’re calling “readings” ...communism writings? . I read enough, including marx’s kapital… to understand that any form of “communism” it’s only excuse to obtain a dictatorship.

I’m not trying to insult anyone, but any form of socialism/communism it’s utopia.
From my observation Germany and Sweden are the prime examples…

[DimitriP]

BYD sales were down 43% on 1Q 2024 so Tesla is ahead again

Who is BYD?

The largest EV manufacturer in the world, selling 3 million EVs in 2023 (1.6M BEVs and 1.4M PHEVs), compared to the 1.8M sold by Tesla.

Tesla sells more cars to more countries.

TL;DR below (feel free to skip it)


Fun facts: Tesla sells a "larger" number of vehicles in China than BYD sells in Europe
https://tridenstechnology.com/byd-sales-statistics/

Tesla also sold more vehicles in a single european country than BYD in all of EU combined.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/tesla-sales-by-country

And for reference....Jupiter is the largest planet in our solar system.
https://phys.org/news/2022-09-smallest-planet-pluto-closer-sizes.html
and no one is planning on moving there. Nothing against Jupiter per se, humans are partial to breathing.

[vad]

BYD sales were down 43% on 1Q 2024 so Tesla is ahead again

Who is BYD?

The largest EV manufacturer in the world, selling 3 million EVs in 2023 (1.6M BEVs and 1.4M PHEVs), compared to the 1.8M sold by Tesla.

Tesla sells more cars to more countries.

More than which company? Tesla sold 1.8 million EVs worldwide in 2023, while BYD sold 3 million EVs in the same period.

[DimitriP]

BYD sales were down 43% on 1Q 2024 so Tesla is ahead again

Who is BYD?

The largest EV manufacturer in the world, selling 3 million EVs in 2023 (1.6M BEVs and 1.4M PHEVs), compared to the 1.8M sold by Tesla.

Tesla sells more cars to more countries.

More than which company? Tesla sold 1.8 million EVs worldwide in 2023, while BYD sold 3 million EVs in the same period.

BYD sold ~ 15K in Europe
Tesla sold  ~18K in Holland alone (included in the links you took  the time to exclude above )
( as for selective quoting of posts (ommiting information) ..it used to be frowned upon   )

[BillyO]

It's all about the curvature. What do you consider flat?

Not the earth, that's for sure.  Just that I've run into too many flat earthers recently.  What kind of brain damage do you need to develop the hubris  discredit all of human achievement and scientific advancement over that last 3 millennia with the only evidence being "I can't see nay curve".  Those people need help.

[vad]

BYD sold ~ 15K in Europe
Tesla sold  ~18K in Holland alone (included in the links you took  the time to exclude above )
( as for selective quoting of posts (ommiting information) ..it used to be frowned upon   )

Sounds like a logical fallacy.

PSA Group sold zero Peugeot vehicles in the USA. Aston Martin sells 1,000-2,000 cars annually in the US.

Does this make Aston Martin a larger carmaker than PSA Group (the maker of Peugeot, Citroën, and Opel)?

[.RC.]

Did you know Canada used to make appliances, IC's, resistors, capacitors, radio, TV etc. and we've joined Detroit in having a wasteland of nothing. We whore our natural resources and that keeps the country afloat, along with borrowing towards our massive national debt.

You spelled Australia wrong there, it is not spelt Canada.

[BillyO]

You spelled Australia wrong there, it is not spelt Canada.

Yeah, crikey!  It's not even spelled Canada either!

[floobydust]

Tariffs are just another tax, that revenue going to the US government.
Why else increase it for solar panels? USA is never going to manufacture solar, they've tried and it just wasted money. They need to admit defeat by superior china. Now at 80-85% of the world's polysilicon production, causing a glut right now and prices are dangerously low. You can't compete on this USA, blame it on Uyghur labour but ultimately cheap solar is needed world-wide.

"Australia’s hopes of building its own solar supply industry – dubbed as the Solar Sunshot – has received a boost with news that the US government is doubling its import tariffs on China solar cells." source

Australia spending $1B, too long 5 years to make a polysilicon plant so "we'll just buy that from china". It looks like the plan is 2 years before (trained kangaroos?) make solar panels there. Is this going to work?
Canada is too much a zombie nation to make anything, see we saved $1B by giving up lol.

[eTobey]

Not the earth, that's for sure.  Just that I've run into too many flat earthers recently.  What kind of brain damage do you need to develop the hubris  discredit all of human achievement and scientific advancement over that last 3 millennia with the only evidence being "I can't see nay curve".  Those people need help.

Seems like some people want to believe something, or want a leader. You can give them anything and they go with it. It even works with junkfood and other products.

This is why we have religions, dictators and bad food.

[soldar]

It depends what you’re calling “readings” ...communism writings? . I read enough, including marx’s kapital… to understand that any form of “communism” it’s only excuse to obtain a dictatorship.

I’m not trying to insult anyone, but any form of socialism/communism it’s utopia.
From my observation Germany and Sweden are the prime examples…

 I’m very sorry, but I told you I’m not allowed to argue unless you’ve paid.

[soldar]

You spelled Australia wrong there, it is not spelt Canada.

Yeah, crikey!  It's not even spelled Canada either!

In British English, both “spelt” and “spelled” are used, but “spelt” is a bit more common. So “spelled incorrectly” and “spelt incorrectly” are both accepted. In American English, “spelled” is standard, so the correct version is “spelled incorrectly.”

https://quillbot.com/blog/spelt-or-spelled/

[5U4GB]

You spelled Australia wrong there, it is not spelt Canada.

Yeah, crikey!  It's not even spelled Canada either!

I think he meant that spelt is produced in Canadia.  By Canadans.

[m k]

Maybe US has a crystal ball that predicts a flipping trade if left alone.
Or maybe there's a message that only Taiwan can do tariff free trade from Formosa.

I've heard that somewhere in central Europe garden fences are made from active solar panels.
Just a thought against protectionism.

I'd say that one core problem in USA is too powerful lobbies of old technology.
And new technology can't compensate, labor cost doesn't help either.

Military needs chips and high quality "raw" materials, for that old machinery is no good.
Maximal short term profitability is no good either, or it is, but only for current owner.

[BillyO]

I think he meant that spelt is produced in Canadia.  By Canadans.

It is, and it's spelt spelt here.  They are thinking of making a new cereal called Spelties because the tariff  on Wheaties is too high and our champions have nothing to eat for breakfast which has become breakslow due to malnutrition.

[soldar]

I think he meant that spelt is produced in Canadia.  By Canadans.

It is, and it's spelt spelt here.  They are thinking of making a new cereal called Spelties because the tariff  on Wheaties is too high and our champions have nothing to eat for breakfast which has become breakslow due to malnutrition.

You might have dreamt that