Vaccine

[JohnnyMalaria]

I suppose a reasonable alternative is let people refuse to be vaccinated, but hold them legally liable if it can be shown that they transmitted the virus to somebody else who later got seriously ill or died. Charging them with negligent homicide seems reasonable to me in the case of someone dying, or sue for lost wages, medical expenses, etc. When a person makes selfish choices based on ignorance and misinformation that end up resulting in harm to others there should be consequences and it should hurt.

Would you be willing to accept the same punishment if within a year 40% of vaccinated develop autoimmune diseases?

What's your basis for suggesting "40% of vaccinated develop autoimmune diseases"? Is that a Kennedy BS thing?

[Zero999]

I suppose a reasonable alternative is let people refuse to be vaccinated, but hold them legally liable if it can be shown that they transmitted the virus to somebody else who later got seriously ill or died. Charging them with negligent homicide seems reasonable to me in the case of someone dying, or sue for lost wages, medical expenses, etc. When a person makes selfish choices based on ignorance and misinformation that end up resulting in harm to others there should be consequences and it should hurt.

Would you be willing to accept the same punishment if within a year 40% of vaccinated develop autoimmune diseases?

How many vaccines have had that higher risk of autoimmune diseases, after a year?

As far as I'm aware, chronic health conditions due to vaccines tend to occur within the first couple of weeks of the dose, not spring up years later. The most risky vaccines are those which contain, attenuated, live virus, which isn't the case for any of the currently approved COVID-19 vaccines.

[radar_macgyver]

One possible "market driven" approach would be for insurance premiums to go *way* up for people who choose to not be vaccinated (as opposed to people who can't for various medical reasons). That will very quickly incentivize the "muh freedoms" folks. The underwriters will have this info, so I'd be surprised if they aren't doing it already.

[tom66]

The US government should do another stimulus check but not available to those who have not been vaccinated (& do not have a genuine medical reason from a real doctor certifying their inability to have such a vaccine.)

Watch how many people would drop their objections to being vaccinated when $600 or $1200 is on the table.   

[coppice]

I suppose a reasonable alternative is let people refuse to be vaccinated, but hold them legally liable if it can be shown that they transmitted the virus to somebody else who later got seriously ill or died. Charging them with negligent homicide seems reasonable to me in the case of someone dying, or sue for lost wages, medical expenses, etc. When a person makes selfish choices based on ignorance and misinformation that end up resulting in harm to others there should be consequences and it should hurt.

Would you be willing to accept the same punishment if within a year 40% of vaccinated develop autoimmune diseases?

How many vaccines have had that higher risk of autoimmune diseases, after a year?

As far as I'm aware, chronic health conditions due to vaccines tend to occur within the first couple of weeks of the dose, not spring up years later. The most risky vaccines are those which contain, attenuated, live virus, which isn't the case for any of the currently approved COVID-19 vaccines.

There have never been mass deployments of the types of vaccine most people are getting for covid, so we have no idea what to expect a year from now.

[DrG]

The US government should do another stimulus check but not available to those who have not been vaccinated (& do not have a genuine medical reason from a real doctor certifying their inability to have such a vaccine.)

Watch how many people would drop their objections to being vaccinated when $600 or $1200 is on the table.   

I have been following the developments in the US concerning CoVid vaccination with great interest. First, I have to say, as good as it is getting in the US, I know full well what the numbers look like in India, Brazil, Columbia and many other places. It is, as we all know, a global pandemic which is far from under control.

I am very proud of what we have done here in just ~4 months - millions of shots administered daily (I think we got over 4 million in one day as the peak). We have done a hell of great job so far and we are continuing and I am very proud of that effort.

In a sense, we have an embarrassment of riches with how much vaccine we have right now. Most of the country is within just a few miles from a place to get vaccinated and there are efforts to drive people and even pay for taxi cabs. There is enough for everyone in the US.

Many programs are aimed at addressing hesitancy.

The general process is to let people voice their hesitancy and ask questions. Outright and without ridicule or shame. There are answers to many of those questions and I like this approach the best.

One program was to offer a $25 Savings Bond (it is worth $25 when it hits maturity).

Then, one state decided to hold a lottery - 1 free ticket with your vaccine. This created some uproar. I read about how they calculated the benefit and while I don't claim to have critically evaluated the math and the assumptions, the basic idea is that you would save money given XXX folks who would otherwise hesitate, producing YYY cases and ZZZ  hospitalizations, each costing $!$!$!$. Put that way, I like that program also.

Several states followed suit and we have seen announcements of the first vaccine millionaires.

We also saw a spike in vaccination after the new CDC guidance for vaccinated people (no masks most of the time). Didn't try to verify the voracity of the claim though.

I don't see the need (or value) in vilifying those who are hesitating or outright refuse to get vaccinated. I will  however, support many policies that involve " if (vaccinated) then XXX ", but that is not the same as forcing someone to get vaccinated. When I go out in public, I am having my picture taken...nobody is forcing me to have my picture taken, but if I want to go out to public places, I will have my picture taken. This concept is not new.

I can respect those who are hesitant, but I want to have a civil discussion with them. If someone makes any kind of suggestion about the CoVid vaccine causing 40% of those people to develop auto-immune disorders, I want to hear the evidence because I don't believe it exists at all. Even if one does not say it outright, but brings it up, in this context, I want to know their thinking and their fears because maybe it can be changed, or maybe not.

BTW: The first doses of the mRNA vaccines were given to humans well over a year ago https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/experimental-coronavirus-vaccine-safe-produces-immune-response#:~:text=Scientists%20began%20Phase%201%20trials,in%20mid%2DMarch.. I have not heard of any of them contracting an auto-immune disease as a result - has anyone heard such a thing?

[Miti]

Oy vey! 
I can feel the hostility just for stating that I’d like to have the rights over my body respected.
No, the 40% doesn’t come from Kennedy BS or from any other “debunked” source of misinformation. I just asked what if, I completely made it up. You can fill the dots with whatever figure makes you comfortable. Again, I don’t want to get into any debate. All the information is there, you just need to have an open mind.

Edit: Some material for your study
https://pace.coe.int/en/files/29004/html     Read section 7.3 and 7.5
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code

[DrG]

Oy vey! 
I can feel the hostility just for stating that I’d like to have the rights over my body respected.
No, the 40% doesn’t come from Kennedy BS or from any other “debunked” source of misinformation. I just asked what if, I completely made it up. You can fill the dots with whatever figure makes you comfortable. Again, I don’t want to get into any debate. All the information is there, you just need to have an open mind.

Edit: Some material for your study
https://pace.coe.int/en/files/29004/html     Read section 7.3 and 7.5
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code

I get that you say that you don't want to debate. You said that twice in the last few days of posts. The first time you said it was when you said you were "out". But, you came back with that 40% business, when you know better and I'm glad that you admitted that you just made it up - why you made it up, I don't know. I'm not sure, but I doubt too many in this thread thought that you were serious but, yeah, you could have been citing some source - I have heard worse.

Now, you again said that you don't want to debate, but you edited your post to add study materials and with the cryptic X-files like quote that " All the information is there, you just need to have an open mind." - ok, it's not exactly "the truth is out there", but it reminded me of that.

I believe that you don't want to debate, but I think you want to be heard and that you're concerned that your "position" will incur a lot of hostility. Well, you don't have to answer and I have no reason to be hostile to you, but I have two questions that I would like you to answer, so that I can better understand your position on the CoVid vaccine.

You stated previously, "Funny that you mention the tetanus shot. I've got mild IBS from it. When I was a child I stepped on a rusty nail and the doctor gave me a tetanus shot. Soon after, my guts went crazy for few days. It never went away completely to this day. It got more tolerable, but never went away." My question is; Can you seriously consider that there may be other reasons for lifetime (since then) IBS other than the tetanus shot that you received as a child? IOW: are you sure that the tetanus shot is the cause?

The second question has to do with something in the "study materials" - the French politician's recommended guidance from the meeting or whatever it is (and BTW: I recommend that others read the entire paper as it is NOT an anti-vax document - typical Political-Speak yes, but most definitely not anti-vax). If you think I am just screwing with you, then just don't respond. But, I did take the time to read your study materials (I was already familiar with the historical one to some degree and just browsed it) and they are both political statements and obviously not evidentiary in a scientific sense.

Specifically," 7.3.2 ensure that no one is discriminated against for not having been vaccinated, due to possible health risks or not wanting to be vaccinated".

It has been announced that the University of Western Ontario, in your flag country, is mandating CoVid vaccination IF you want to be living in residence https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-university-of-western-ontario-to-require-covid-19-vaccinations-for/ It is requirement.  Now, it does state that "Students who forgo a vaccine for reasons protected under the Human Rights Code may apply for an accommodation, the university said." Further, I looked into that code http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/ontario-human-rights-code and it does appear that it is at least possible that the residence could be considered protected ground, but since one could argue that you are choosing to go there to live, maybe you would not be exempt. I really don't know.

My second question is, do you feel that action (by the University) discriminates against you, assuming for the sake of argument, that you wanted to attend in residence but did not want to get vaccinated - IOW does that violate your body rights? [you have stated - "I’d like to have the rights over my body respected."], even if such exemption is normally granted - is it still a violation to require you apply for an exemption?

[dietert1]

I got my first dose and don't understand all the fuss. Isn't protective vaccination something we learned as children? Everybody knows the difference between a cold and a flu, but they can't understand Covid19 is a flu that kills 10x more? What? My wife keeps asking people whether they got vaccinated, it's fun. Better talk to somebody real.

On German TV they had an interview (!) with somebody who was introduced as a medical doctor and presented a serious face when explaining that Covid19 and vaccination was invented to decimate world population. The more ridiculous it becomes, the more attention. German TV had our minister of health saying: "Finally we will be able to vaccinate 1 million doses per week". Per week or per day - it doesn't matter. Remember Trump: "Probably 200 000 will die. If only 100 000 die, we have done a good job." Few people can have the medical treatment he received when infected without protection.

Regards, Dieter

[jfiresto]

... German TV had our minister of health saying: "Finally we will be able to vaccinate 1 million doses per week"....

Are you sure that was the number? I would expect far more wishful thinking from Mr. Spahn. I am not quite 60 and still waiting for a vaccination offer. If the politicians have their way, the 12–18 years will be next then everyone else.

[Gyro]

Oy vey! 
I can feel the hostility just for stating that I’d like to have the rights over my body respected.
No, the 40% doesn’t come from Kennedy BS or from any other “debunked” source of misinformation. I just asked what if, I completely made it up. You can fill the dots with whatever figure makes you comfortable. Again, I don’t want to get into any debate. All the information is there, you just need to have an open mind.

Edit: Some material for your study
https://pace.coe.int/en/files/29004/html     Read section 7.3 and 7.5
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code

In a global pandemic of a disease with significant mortality and long term damage, it is about populations and death tolls rather than individuals.

For the 'free choicer's (aka anti-Vaxers  - as to the best of my knowledge NO government is forcibly administering vaccines!). It should be though of as a duty to the rest of the population in order to minimise the overall death toll.

You are not (as far as I know), a front line health worker who has to spend long hours day after day sweating in claustrophobic PPE, or risking your life daily treating infectious patients with inadequate PPE and facing the trauma of daily deaths and grieving families. Worse still is the plight of health workers with no facilities, having to mak 'who dies, who lives' decisions and watching patients dying like stranded fish due to lack of oxygen. (For the record, I'm not a front line health worker either, but I have several in the family).

People seem to have forgotten the meaning of duty. Putting yourself at (in this case, miniscule risk) in order to benefit others. After what the emergency workers of the world are going though. It seems a little selfish not to be prepared to take a couple of pin pricks and maybe a few Paracetamol. Yes sure, you have a tiny risk of death or side effects, but you can console yourself that you didn't die of the much higher risks of Covid, a car crash or falling down the stairs! There is very little that is less treatable than death!

[dietert1]

My wife spent two or three days online and making phone calls to finally get vaccination appointments for us. I always ended up in the "virtual waiting room", without the faintest idea what was the problem. Of course, after a year one month more or less doesn't really matter.
One problem i see is that people below age of 40 are under-represented in governments. Then comes this baby reaction: I am hungry. Nothing to eat now? Then i won't eat anymore. That's perfectly human - and up to each individual to overcome this frustration.

Regards, Dieter

[steve30]

Easiest thing for the anti's

#

Beware how you black and white label people.
There are huge numbers of people who are "pro vaccine" but hesitant to get an entirely new form of vaccine that still only has emergency approval status and is not yet fully approved.
I know many people like this personally, and I do not disparage them for it nor do I label them, because I know they aren't "anti-vaxxers".

I'm curious as to whether Dave has had a coronavirus vaccine or not.

Whilst I see very little benefit to it myself, I did ponder the possibility of having one just to disprove the conspiracy theorists who are adamant that it is part of some depopulation plan (yes, I know people who believe this).

Unfortunately healthcare is very poor in my country these days, and has become worse since the so-called pandemic. I think this so-called pandemic will be the final nail in the coffin for our health service.

My main concerns regarding the coronavirus vaccine are that firstly, I have a ridiculously small chance of getting the disease in the first place, and secondly, that if I get a vaccine, I will probably not be able to get medical help if I get any adverse reactions.

The counter argument to that is that I may need medical help if I get Covid-19, but I'm not satisfied that I'd get that either.

[jfiresto]

My wife spent two or three days online and making phone calls to finally get vaccination appointments for us. I always ended up in the "virtual waiting room", without the faintest idea what was the problem....

Your experiences are about what I had expected. Some neighbors have been urging me to scheme some way to get a vaccine, but until recently it seemed unethically early. The ethics of Germany's (and the EU's) Covid response are what bother me. The models other countries are following suggest giving everyone the same priority to get vaccinated, so soon, will result in many preventable deaths, but perhaps there are other factors I do not know about that are more important.

Recently I got on a couple promising waiting lists for unwanted AZ doses, but only discovered them by chance. Public health should not be a lottery or worse.

[Muttley Snickers]

At this point in time I have no interest at all in getting the vaccine due to existing and ongoing medical conditions, and I don't appreciate the conflicting and misguided information given by my treating specialists either. I do however appreciate that everybody's circumstances and responsibilities are different so the individual has to decide what is best for themselves, their family and also their community.

[dietert1]

Another psychological problem i had myself: Nowadays sponsors are everywhere (even in this forum) and we are busy keeping people away with their offers. As a freelancer who is used to pay for each and everything i felt a bit lost to accept the vaccine as a present. You always wonder: Who is the sponsor? Are they hiding their intentions?
In the end i assume the government is doing it because lockdowns cause huge damage and they want to stop that. I decided to join this effort and i want the protection, of course.
We may safely assume that all those critical voices have their sponsors, too.

Regards, Dieter

[Miti]

I'm curious as to whether Dave has had a coronavirus vaccine or not.

Knowing Dave, if he wanted us to know that, he'd make a 30 minute video and "Bob's your uncle", eh Dave? 

[EEVblog]

I'm curious as to whether Dave has had a coronavirus vaccine or not.

You'll have to forever continue to be curious.
I will not virtue signal my medical status, I refuse to be part of the social media circus on this.

[steve30]

I'm curious as to whether Dave has had a coronavirus vaccine or not.

You'll have to forever continue to be curious.
I will not virtue signal my medical status, I refuse to be part of the social media circus on this.

Well said.

To be honest, I think if you say you haven't had it, people will accuse you of being a selfish murderer. If you say you have had it, people will either moan about your impending Bill Gates-related death, or they'll go on about what an amazing hero you are for saving the lives of those around you.

[DrG]

My wife spent two or three days online and making phone calls to finally get vaccination appointments for us. I always ended up in the "virtual waiting room", without the faintest idea what was the problem....

Your experiences are about what I had expected. Some neighbors have been urging me to scheme some way to get a vaccine, but until recently it seemed unethically early. The ethics of Germany's (and the EU's) Covid response are what bother me. The models other countries are following suggest giving everyone the same priority to get vaccinated, so soon, will result in many preventable deaths, but perhaps there are other factors I do not know about that are more important.

Recently I got on a couple promising waiting lists for unwanted AZ doses, but only discovered them by chance. Public health should not be a lottery or worse.

In the US, early on, there was much talk of "line jumping" by the "rich and powerful" and how to game the system. It became common knowledge that any opened bottles (the mRNA vaccine), would have to be administered or tossed on that day. People started hanging out at clinics just for that chance at the end of the day - clinics caught on quickly, but I suspect that the vaccine underground quietly continued.....I do know of one person who got a friend call at the end of the day that if they could be there in 10 min, they could get a shot.

Each state in the US decided how they wanted to prioritize distribution. It was frustrating in my state, but I never disagreed with the prioritization as it was clearly linked to chance of infection (e.g., medical treatment personnel) and chance of illness severity when infected (e.g., elderly). It was not a perfect system and there were legitimate issues - of course, those prioritization issue went away as supply increased. It is my hope and belief that those supply increases will occur worldwide and soon.

[DrG]

There is also the practical problem that there is no reliable (against forgery from web-supplied blank cards) way (currently in the USA) to prove that one is vaccinated, when given an opportunity to go where vaccination is required.  Right now, some baseball parks are establishing special sections for the vaccinated, and there may be many private venues (e.g., opera houses?) that will require vaccination of their customers.  The CDC card given me when I was vaccinated was designed for medical personnel to keep track of my shots (date and type), and are far from a secure passport.  Meanwhile, some States have passed regulations forbidding private companies from requiring vaccination of their clientele--the major cruiseship lines will not be able to use ports in Florida.

Concur. Fact is, I don't know of a single case where someone was forced to get a CoVid vaccine. It is always an if-then as I see it. The Feds here have made it clear that they will not be part of any kind of passport situation....and the states, as you note, are plenty happy to wade in, and on both sides https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/digital-transformation/vaccine-passports-10-states-with-bans-limitations-green-lights.html

From a business perspective going from 0% [lock down] to 25% [partial opening to 50% [lifting of restrictions], it must seem appealing, e.g., you could get to capacity quicker if you could only allowed vaccinated customers, at least in some instances.

The thing is, all that crap will go out the window once the infection numbers fall far enough...Nobody is requiring small pox vaccination, but they did. I still have my scar...I bet you do also...had a BS Occ health exam once and the PA was so young, he asked me what it was...I laughed...he was embarrassed.

Funny that every state in the US requires a drivers license to drive publicly. These are hard to fake (relatively), form a huge data base of identification, and are readily produced on demand, but we accept the need for that universally - I know I do.

I suppose the day will come (although we may not see it) where you are simply scanned for antibody status...oh boy...new toys

[langwadt]

My wife spent two or three days online and making phone calls to finally get vaccination appointments for us. I always ended up in the "virtual waiting room", without the faintest idea what was the problem....

Your experiences are about what I had expected. Some neighbors have been urging me to scheme some way to get a vaccine, but until recently it seemed unethically early. The ethics of Germany's (and the EU's) Covid response are what bother me. The models other countries are following suggest giving everyone the same priority to get vaccinated, so soon, will result in many preventable deaths, but perhaps there are other factors I do not know about that are more important.

Recently I got on a couple promising waiting lists for unwanted AZ doses, but only discovered them by chance. Public health should not be a lottery or worse.

In the US, early on, there was much talk of "line jumping" by the "rich and powerful" and how to game the system. It became common knowledge that any opened bottles (the mRNA vaccine), would have to be administered or tossed on that day. People started hanging out at clinics just for that chance at the end of the day - clinics caught on quickly, but I suspect that the vaccine underground quietly continued.....I do know of one person who got a friend call at the end of the day that if they could be there in 10 min, they could get a shot.

if the alternative was that it would get tossed, you'd need to have a weird sense of justice to object to someone getting it for being there

[gnuarm]

I'm curious as to whether Dave has had a coronavirus vaccine or not.

You'll have to forever continue to be curious.
I will not virtue signal my medical status, I refuse to be part of the social media circus on this.

"Virtue signal"?  Discussing an important issue in public and being honest about your actions is "virtue signalling"

I'm flying to Puerto Rico from the US mainland and I can either get tested for COVID, be quarantined for 14 days... or just provide a vaccine card (no virtue signals required). 

I can't say what perspective is provided by living in a country with single digit daily infection rates and virtually zero death rates from COVID, but many of us in the US take this disease very seriously and don't have a problem with taking appropriate actions to reduce the transmission rate as much as possible.  The problem we have in the US is that far too many think COVID is not a disease, but a political football and use terms like "virtue signalling" while resisting various efforts to contain the disease with the clear results we've seen over the last year.

[DrG]

My wife spent two or three days online and making phone calls to finally get vaccination appointments for us. I always ended up in the "virtual waiting room", without the faintest idea what was the problem....

Your experiences are about what I had expected. Some neighbors have been urging me to scheme some way to get a vaccine, but until recently it seemed unethically early. The ethics of Germany's (and the EU's) Covid response are what bother me. The models other countries are following suggest giving everyone the same priority to get vaccinated, so soon, will result in many preventable deaths, but perhaps there are other factors I do not know about that are more important.

Recently I got on a couple promising waiting lists for unwanted AZ doses, but only discovered them by chance. Public health should not be a lottery or worse.

In the US, early on, there was much talk of "line jumping" by the "rich and powerful" and how to game the system. It became common knowledge that any opened bottles (the mRNA vaccine), would have to be administered or tossed on that day. People started hanging out at clinics just for that chance at the end of the day - clinics caught on quickly, but I suspect that the vaccine underground quietly continued.....I do know of one person who got a friend call at the end of the day that if they could be there in 10 min, they could get a shot.

if the alternative was that it would get tossed, you'd need to have a weird sense of justice to object to someone getting it for being there

Absolutely agree with you and I did not object and I told her so at the time and have not changed my mind. I did not expect or demand some kind of equitable distribution policy for those few doses because it would be incredibly cumbersome and impractical, nor would I condone large crowds gathering at clinics to fight for those few doses. Nor would I accept any unethical behavior to "arrange" for bottles to be opened when they did not need to be (I don't know that something of that nature ever occurred).

Truth is, I did investigate the possibility at the time, but what I saw online for every clinic near me was basically a warning to not show up without an appointment or you would be asked to leave. She is in another state where, at the time, they were already administering at drug store chains and the like (a distinctly different situation).

[gnuarm]

At this point in time I have no interest at all in getting the vaccine due to existing and ongoing medical conditions, and I don't appreciate the conflicting and misguided information given by my treating specialists either. I do however appreciate that everybody's circumstances and responsibilities are different so the individual has to decide what is best for themselves, their family and also their community.

Existing medical conditions are a reasonable justification for not getting the vaccine, especially when weighed in the context of 100% chance of getting the vaccine (if you so choose) vs. the 1 in X chance of getting COVID depending on you circumstances.  It may well be that, for your circumstances, statistically you are better off without the vaccine.

I have a friend who is highly intelligent, educated and has even worked in the medical field running a blood bank.  Yet she decided that simply because the vaccine was developed rapidly (even though the speed did not reduce the testing, they simply minimized the time for each step) it should not be trusted.  The fact that there are a very small number of reported POTENTIALLY severe reactions to the vaccines compared to the approximately 1% death rate in our age group from contracting the disease was not as important as her unease.  So an emotional decision rather than a logical one.