Which country is the best for EE ?

[4a4ik]

Hello, if you had an opportunity to be born (or reborn) in a different country, to study and work as an electronics engineer, which would you choose, and why ?

I am studying for the bachelor degree in Latvia, after that I would like to get Master's Degree and work at the same time. But there aren't so much workplaces here at all. So I am thinking about moving to another country.

In general, I would like to know your thoughts about Electronic industry in different countries.
Where could an EE find the most and the best job opportunities (main question), living standards, education level, etc.

Thank you.

[EEVblog]

Australia has one of the highest living standards in the world and it consistently rated as having several of the worlds move livable cities:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_most_liveable_cities

[coppice]

Australia has one of the highest living standards in the world and it consistently rated as having several of the worlds move livable cities:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_most_liveable_cities

Maybe, but your electronics graduates leave in considerable numbers to find employment.

[Wytnucls]

I would rather live in Oz, but the best jobs would be in the US.

[EEVblog]

Maybe, but your electronics graduates leave in considerable numbers to find employment.

Care to cite a reference for that?
Australian youth are natural travelers, so even if true might have nothing to do with lack of jobs.
But yes, Australia is not the best place for engineering work.

[tom66]

Sydney is quite expensive to live in, from what I've heard.

Probably the best place (salary-wise) is somewhere in the USA, salaries after tax can be quite attractive, and living is quite cheap if you can find the right area. I worked out that take-home pay was ~£35,000/p.a. for a UK job and ~£47,000/p.a. for a US job. (This is with several years' experience in the field and good qualifications.)

You can be looking at working 50hr/week in most jobs and be expected to work on some Saturdays, compared to an average of 37hr/week in the UK: so from a time point of view, you're getting the same pay either way.

Also, it is hard to get permanent citizenship (there are only so many available per year per country) without that you can get a H1B which gives you up to 6 years plus one year outside of the US and then 3 more years of employment. After that, I don't think you can work at all (?) until/if you have full citizenship, though someone might have to correct me on that.

In the US, you also have to pay for health insurance and have a budget for any co-pay/excess necessary, which could be several thousand dollars more if you become ill (unlike the NHS, where maximum out of pocket costs are max £7/fortnight for prescription medicine.)

[coppice]

Maybe, but your electronics graduates leave in considerable numbers to find employment.

Care to cite a reference for that?
Australian youth are natural travelers, so even if true might have nothing to do with lack of jobs.
But yes, Australia is not the best place for engineering work.

Do I need to cite anything? You just answered your own question.

For the last 30 years, if you went to any English speaking place with an electronics industry you'll have found young Australian engineers. If you engaged them on why they left Australia part of the reason was to see the world, but a bigger part was a lack of opportunities back home. Most of those who expected to return to live permanently in Australia expected to be doing something other than electronics work there.

How many semiconductor companies, even big ones, have anything more than minimal representation in Australia? Australian designers are likely to be supported by an FAE in Singapore, Hong Kong, or increasingly China. There aren't enough customers to justify anything else. Australian universities seem to have some really first class engineering programs, and much of the electronics work in Australia is really ground breaking. There just isn't a great deal of it.

[dannyf]

Which country is the best for EE ?

Depending on your definition of "best".

Western countries offer you generally better standards of living. But as those countries increasingly transition from "making" to "consuming", employment opportunities dwindle or become more specialized.

How much willing are you to risk taking and what you value in life will be key drivers here.

[EEVblog]

Do I need to cite anything?

Yes, you've made a major claim.

You just answered your own question.

No, I didn't. I was pointing out that Australians in general have a big propensity to travel.
And that hence may (if fact I'm sure it will) naturally skew numbers for graduate engineers.

For the last 30 years, if you went to any English speaking place with an electronics industry you'll have found young Australian engineers. If you engaged them on why they left Australia part of the reason was to see the world, but a bigger part was a lack of opportunities back home. Most of those who expected to return to live permanently in Australia expected to be doing something other than electronics work there.

This is what I expected you to say, it's essentially your own personal experience.

Australian universities seem to have some really first class engineering programs, and much of the electronics work in Australia is really ground breaking. There just isn't a great deal of it.

I never claimed there was, in fact I said the opposite.
But there is work here if you want it. I have never known an electronics designer here leave because of the lack of work (my personal experience, no data).
Whether it's the work you are specifically after is another matter.

[zapta]

4a4ik, you need to tell us what your goals are, relaxed life? making money? working for top companies on advanced technologies? being an entrepreneur?

One thing I like here in Silicon Valley that on one hand you find in a radius of 15 miles or so many top technology companies and on the other hand a deep culture of startup and entrepreneurship.

Another place that intrigues me is Shenzhen. It seems to be a heaven for electronic enthusiasts.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hackers+in+shenzen

[Artlav]

What about South America?
I heard there is quite a bit of development in Chile, and the life quality appears to be pretty high as well.

I was pointing out that Australians in general have a big propensity to travel.

Which is actually quite curious, since there are few places closer than a day's flight away.
Maybe it makes travel more meaningful?

[coppice]

Australian universities seem to have some really first class engineering programs, and much of the electronics work in Australia is really ground breaking. There just isn't a great deal of it.

I never claimed there was, in fact I said the opposite.
But there is work here if you want it. I have never known an electronics designer here leave because of the lack of work (my personal experience, no data).
Whether it's the work you are specifically after is another matter.

The original question was where is a good place for EE. Australia has many good qualities, but being good for EE clearly isn't one of them. You realise this yourself, so why are you so defensive? How many Australian engineers outside Australia have you asked about their reasons for leaving? I've talked with maybe 50 in the UK, most of whom left the country directly from college. Often not because they couldn't find any work, but because they couldn't find good work. I've talked with quite a few in the US. There they cite the US as the place with the most opportunities, but they also cite the job market in Australia as problematic. This is kinda funny, as every time I sit to eat at engineering events in the US, the topic of conversation always seems to get around to how all the American engineering jobs are migrating to Asia. There's definitely "the other man's grass is always greener" at work in these people's opinions.

[dannyf]

-There's definitely "the other man's grass is always greener" at work in these people's opinions-

The us benefits from having a much bigger and more diverse economy, a robust defense spending program, and a more risk taking and creative culture.

Over the long run, it wouldn't surprise me that ee jobs are indeed migrating to Asia, as the us becomes more European like.

[dannyf]

Australias issue is with small size vs Europe or us, its isolated geography, and its dependency.

When china coughs, Australia storms, as the saying gets going.

[4a4ik]

Is there anything good in Europe? I always hear about USA and Australia (EEVblog, amphour), but I don't really know what is happening inside the Europe, despite some good EE youtubers from the UK.

4a4ik, you need to tell us what your goals are, relaxed life? making money? working for top companies on advanced technologies? being an entrepreneur?

First of all I would like to hear what people think. Despite my personal goals.

I want to love what I do and still get enough money to survive (I don't know what I love specifically). I don't think many people can answer that properly. If I wanted to work in Intel or Nasa I would know what I need to do. But if I have a huge selection of choices, with such a small amount of experience in anything, it's just harder.

I am thinking about moving to another (English-speaking) country. Because Latvia is not a good place to stay, everybody is leaving, demographics are bad, my professors migrate or change jobs because there are fewer and fewer students each year. My family also hopes I will migrate somewhere. Because everywhere grass is greener...

I am Europe citizen, so I will try to move to the UK, and hope that I will find something there. If I don't find better options.
I hope I will be able to find some summer job there this year. (repair shop or soldering job)

I am in a situation when it's better for me to migrate to any country, but of course Europe is easier.

But still, I want to know your opinion, about all countries for electronic engineer to live/work in.

[dannyf]

Europe is a great place to go if you enjoy living off of others. For jobs, Germany is a good spot. The UK isn't bad either.

[Rigby]

Australia has one of the highest living standards in the world and it consistently rated as having several of the worlds move livable cities:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_most_liveable_cities

I lived in Sydney for two years and had the time of my life.  If I could get my family to move with me I'd move back today.

There's lots of jobs in Sydney, you just have to look.

[EEVblog]

I am Europe citizen, so I will try to move to the UK, and hope that I will find something there. If I don't find better options.
I hope I will be able to find some summer job there this year. (repair shop or soldering job)
I am in a situation when it's better for me to migrate to any country, but of course Europe is easier.
But still, I want to know your opinion, about all countries for electronic engineer to live/work in.

I've heard that Australia is not easy to get a work visa for, let alone immigrate.
Many of the interesting jobs in Oz require you to be an Australian citizen, and probably the same with other countries.
Also, you might not get the interesting work you are after if you are on work visa, as many companies, if they do hire you, expect you to leave, so they aren't less likely to give you any long term interesting work.
So yes, I'd pick somewhere that gives you the best opportunity to actually get interesting work as a citizen, not just the place with the most interesting work. So that probably means sticking with Europe. So England is a good choice IMO.

Also, large cities like London, Sydney, SanFrancisco etc are not cheap to live in, and also more competition for the best jobs. So some of the smaller cities and towns might have less work, but could also have less competition too?
e.g. small start-up's often start in the home town/city of the founder(s).

[EEVblog]

There's lots of jobs in Sydney, you just have to look.

Yes.
Also, Sydney residents (and Oz in general) are more reluctant to move for a job than people are in other countries. e.g. here your goal is to buy your house and look for work close to home. At least for the older and more experienced people. So many jobs in Sydney go unfilled because no one is willing to travel there (our public transport system generally sucks)
e.g. Altium always had a real hard time getting good people because of their location in Sydney.

It's just a culture thing. Just like how US students are expected to move out of home and go to a university anywhere in the country. it's the opposite here. Most students stay at home and go to the closest uni.

[zapta]

...Altium always had a real hard time getting good people because of their location in Sydney.

Not to mention that they still program in Delphi. ;-)

[EEVblog]

The original question was where is a good place for EE. Australia has many good qualities, but being good for EE clearly isn't one of them. You realise this yourself, so why are you so defensive?

Not defensive, just responding your your rather big claim that Australian engineers leave here because there is no work. Of which I think you are completely off the mark.

How many Australian engineers outside Australia have you asked about their reasons for leaving?

None.
How many Oz locals do you know that stayed in Oz because they did find interesting work?

I've talked with maybe 50 in the UK, most of whom left the country directly from college. Often not because they couldn't find any work, but because they couldn't find good work.

That might sound a lot to you, but I think you are failing to realise is that your numbers and perception of this is likely to be quite skewed. Why?
Because you are failing to take into account the vast majority who do stay here and did find good interesting work. You don't encounter these people being overseas, you only see it from your perspective.
Of course you'd expect to find a good % of the aussies in another country saying they left here because they couldn't find interesting work that suited them! A variation on the anthropic principle if you like. That doesn't automatically make it any significant percentage.
As a local I can tell you that there is no systemic culture of EE's leaving here because a lack of work, or interesting work.

I've talked with quite a few in the US. There they cite the US as the place with the most opportunities, but they also cite the job market in Australia as problematic.

I won't argue that, except that  I'd change the word "problematic" to "limited".
As someone who has lived here, worked in, analysed, and commented on the local industry in Sydney for 20+ years, I agree with the other poster that there is always interesting work to be had if you look hard enough.
On the other hand, in the US you don't have to look hard at all.
I can cite one major example I pointed out on the Amp Hour. TI, one ship company in one state, in one city, had more electronics jobs openings than all of the listed electronics job openings in Australia.

[EEVblog]

...Altium always had a real hard time getting good people because of their location in Sydney.

Not to mention that they still program in Delphi. ;-)

Yep, and Altium were so desperate for good programers, Delphi programming experience was not a requirement.
Not that you'd find anyone with Delphi experience anyway 

[tom66]

Europe is a great place to go if you enjoy living off of others. For jobs, Germany is a good spot. The UK isn't bad either.

Pretty much the opposite if you're earning more than about £40k/year. Income tax in some European countries is ridiculously high. 50%+ for Denmark.

[EEVblog]

Pretty much the opposite if you're earning more than about £40k/year. Income tax in some European countries is ridiculously high. 50%+ for Denmark.

As a data point, a decent engineer in Australia will average less than 30% tax. (it's a scaled tax bracket)

[coppice]

Not that you'd find anyone with Delphi experience anyway 

Its easy. Make a good offer to someone at Altium. 

[Mechanical Menace]

As a data point, a decent engineer in Australia will average less than 30% tax. (it's a scaled tax bracket)

Do you mean there's different tax rates for different jobs?

One thing I have heard from family who've emigrated to Oz is while housing, certain taxes etc seems cheap when you take into account other things like water bills, more expensive food*, and the extra you have to put towards healthcare you work out as well off as you'd be in UK on the same income.

*I'm not sure if that one was worked out right though, they're foodies

[tom66]

I was forced to use Delphi for A-Level computing at college (basically between high-school & university.) Technically, I have a degree certificate in it. It is a horrible language; Embarcadero IDE makes it worse... To this day, I still have no idea why anyone would make an entire EDA package in it.   

[XynxNet]

I think every heavily industrialized country has many good job opportunities for EEs.
As an european you have the unique opportunity to work everywhere in the eu without much burocratic hassle. In my opinion, that's definitivly an incentive for choosing an european country.

If you are willing to emigrate permanently also look at the soft factors.
Do you like social security or do you prefer an everyone for himself society.
Which citizen rights will you have and how importend are they for you.
Look at the climate and location. Like Dave said, there are exceptionally great cities like Sydney.
How easy is it to immigrate. Is there a company sponsoring programm for immigration, like in the US?

If you consider germany. You will definitly have to learn german and you will most definitly have to have formal education.
Although there are hand full of big well known corporations here, most of the jobs are with smaller often family owned companies. Many of them aren't well known in the public although they may be world leader in their market.

[owiecc]

Pretty much the opposite if you're earning more than about £40k/year. Income tax in some European countries is ridiculously high. 50%+ for Denmark.

Not really. Everything above £46k/year is 59%. Only dentists pay the topskat There are few more steps. When you can compare the tax freedom day you will see that tax in Denmark is not so high. This is because everything is bundled into this tax. In some other countries tax is 19% and then on top of that you have to pay health insurance, unemployment insurance and so on... (the list is long, everything is mandatory). Plus there are many tax deductions possible. E.g. house loans are tax deductible.

[zapta]

Do you like social security or do you prefer an everyone for himself society.

You must refer to socialism vs. freedom. ;-)

How easy is it to immigrate. Is there a company sponsoring programm for immigration, like in the US?

One common way to immigrate to the US is to come here for post graduate studies on a student visa, which also gives you a 1 year work permit, then your employer sponsor a work visa and after a few years you can apply for a greed card.

Driving in Silicon Valley is like a Hollywood movie star home tour, you see a company you recognize on almost every street corner.

[KJDS]

I've worked mostly in the UK, but also in the Netherlands and spent a good few weeks in both the US and Canada.

Both the US and Canada seemed to have an attitude of being obedient to the managers and putting lots of hours in.

The Netherlands was relaxed but did expect results. It was also very diverse, over 50% of the engineers weren't Dutch. English was the official company language and I believe that is quite common there. I'd often find that teenagers there spoke better English those in England.

Most places in the UK work on a results basis rather than on an hours worked, though I have worked at UK sites of US companies and there the principle judgement was on hour many hours you were sat at your desk.

Is there a "best place" for EEs? No, because there is so much more to life than the angle of the soldering iron.

[coppice]

Driving in Silicon Valley is like a Hollywood movie star home tour, you see a company you recognize on almost every street corner.

Sounds like Bangalore. :-)

[Stonent]

Do you like social security or do you prefer an everyone for himself society.

You must refer to socialism vs. freedom. ;-)

I have a retirement fund.  I pay less into it than I pay to social security, yet it always increases in value. The money gets invested into companies and such.  Meanwhile paying into social security means nothing.  You still may starve when you get to that age.

[zapta]

I have a retirement fund.  I pay less into it than I pay to social security, yet it always increases in value. The money gets invested into companies and such.  Meanwhile paying into social security means nothing.  You still may starve when you get to that age.

This very inefficient. Collective central planning can optimize the cost

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2945079/Old-people-auctioned-care-homes-internet-Anger-cattle-markets-grannies-councils-accept-lowest-bids-save-cash.html

[owiecc]

You must refer to socialism vs. freedom. ;-)

Please stop the "freedom" trolling. There have been many discussions that led nowhere on this forum. Plus don't quote the daily mail as reliable source.

[zapta]

Please stop the "freedom" trolling. There have been many discussions that led nowhere on this forum.

It's interesting that you didn't complain about the "Do you like social security or do you prefer an everyone for himself society." representation earlier in this thread. Let's me guess, it matches your political views.

Plus don't quote the daily mail as reliable source.

That's a lame counter argument.

[tom66]

Look, regardless of what side you are on, you're simply not going to convince people. Same goes for AGW, subsidies on EVs or any political subject really. It's best to keep it off an EEng forum. Just derails yet another discussion.  There are plenty of political forums this can be debated on. But not here. Not again.

And yes I'm guilty of this too but I'm a reformed addict

[Tepe]

Everything above £46k/year is 59%. Only dentists pay the topskat

I'm not a dentist and I pay it

[vk6zgo]

As a data point, a decent engineer in Australia will average less than 30% tax. (it's a scaled tax bracket)

Do you mean there's different tax rates for different jobs?

One thing I have heard from family who've emigrated to Oz is while housing, certain taxes etc seems cheap when you take into account other things like water bills, more expensive food*, and the extra you have to put towards healthcare you work out as well off as you'd be in UK on the same income.

*I'm not sure if that one was worked out right though, they're foodies

No,everybody pays tax on the same tax scale--As your income increases,that part of your income which flops over into the next tax rate is taxed at that rate---but only that part!!
Many people moan that they are "paying 47c in the Dollar",but they are not--they just can't do simple Maths!!

Most people in OZ pay around 30-35% of their income in tax.
That isn't the whole story,as there are legitimate ways to reduce your taxes & many people use them.

There is a lot of angst about taxes in Australia,but we live in a country about the size of Western Europe,& have a similar population to Greece.
Some costs are not population related,but depend on the geographical size of the country,so the money has to come from somewhere.

[EEVblog]

As a data point, a decent engineer in Australia will average less than 30% tax. (it's a scaled tax bracket)

Do you mean there's different tax rates for different jobs?

Ah, no, sorry.
What I meant is that you don't pay fixed amount of tax, you pay tax at each threshold:
https://www.ato.gov.au/Rates/Individual-income-tax-rates/
So if you earn $80,001 you are in the 37% tax bracket but you don't pay 37% tax, just 37% on every dollar over $80,000.
So your average person on a good engineering level income pays about 28-30% or so.

One thing I have heard from family who've emigrated to Oz is while housing, certain taxes etc seems cheap when you take into account other things like water bills, more expensive food*, and the extra you have to put towards healthcare you work out as well off as you'd be in UK on the same income.

Health care is not expensive here, we have a universal health care system. We all pay 2% tax for this.
You don't have to have private health insurance. But if you don't you pay an extra 1% or so tax surcharge. It's cheaper to go on a basic private health care plan at $30/month.

https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/Medicare-levy/

[dannyf]

There is a lot of angst about taxes in Australia

Just tell them that it is their patriotic duty to pay taxes,

[Mechanical Menace]

Ah, no, sorry.
What I meant is that you don't pay fixed amount of tax, you pay tax at each threshold:

I thought everywhere worked like that? But thanks for clearing it up.

[XynxNet]

Please stop the "freedom" trolling. There have been many discussions that led nowhere on this forum.

It's interesting that you didn't complain about the "Do you like social security or do you prefer an everyone for himself society." representation earlier in this thread. Let's me guess, it matches your political views.

Nothing was implied by that. I'am not a native english speaker. Sometimes things get lost or misunderstood if you write in a forein language. Please keep that in mind.

It's perfectly ok to prefer either form of society. But it's a choice worth thinking about, if you choose a country for immigration.

[LabSpokane]

Thanks to moronic US trade policies, Canada, Toronto in particular, is the go place to do high end RF work. Vancouver, BC is a good place to land as well.

[vk6zgo]

There is a lot of angst about taxes in Australia

Just tell them that it is their patriotic duty to pay taxes,

It is,indeed---if you claim Sovereignty over a whacking great slab of land,you better be prepared to defend it.
That is one of the costs that aren't population based.

[nctnico]

Australia has one of the highest living standards in the world and it consistently rated as having several of the worlds move livable cities:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_most_liveable_cities

They probably did not take into account being able to do and say what you want. I go by my F-word index and many countries have a very low score. If I had to choose I'd be happy to be born in the NL again.

[zapta]

Nothing was implied by that. I'am not a native english speaker. Sometimes things get lost or misunderstood if you write in a forein language. Please keep that in mind.

It's perfectly ok to prefer either form of society. But it's a choice worth thinking about, if you choose a country for immigration.

I agree, socialism vs freedom is a choice worth thinking about.  ;-)

Seriously, political bias is often expressed by the choice of labels. For example, "Obama's far reaching health care law" vs. "Obama's controversial health care law".  Sometimes it's by conscious choice and sometimes it's caused by living in an ideological bubble and assuming that one's biases are the unbiased 'norm'.

My point was to highlight that one sided presentation of this important choice.

[nctnico]

It's both funny and worrying to see J. Edgar Hoover's anti-communist brainwash operation (government organised terrorism) is still affecting the minds of people from the USA. You think you live in a free country but fail to realise you have been carefully conditioned!

[zapta]

It's both funny and worrying to see J. Edgar Hoover's anti-communist brainwash operation (government organised terrorism) is still affecting the minds of people from the USA. You think you live in a free country but fail to realise you have been carefully conditioned!

Thanks for warning me. I should get myself a tin foil hat.

[gxti]

Seriously, political bias is often expressed by the choice of labels. For example, "Obama's far reaching health care law" vs. "Obama's controversial health care law".  Sometimes it's by conscious choice and sometimes it's caused by living in an ideological bubble and assuming that one's biases are the unbiased 'norm'.

My point was to highlight that one sided presentation of this important choice.

Your point is to turn another thread into a political poo-flinging contest. I'm not sure if you post anything else on this forum, but it's certainly the only thing I ever notice you doing. I'm rather tired of it.

[zapta]

Your point is to turn another thread into a political poo-flinging contest. I'm not sure if you post anything else on this forum, but it's certainly the only thing I ever notice you doing. I'm rather tired of it.

It's interesting that from all the political opinions in this thread you complain only about mine. Let me guess, it doesn't match yours.

[mtdoc]

It's both funny and worrying to see J. Edgar Hoover's anti-communist brainwash operation (government organised terrorism) is still affecting the minds of people from the USA.

It's called Red-baiting and unfortunately in recent years it's made a comeback in this county thanks to Fox-News, Rush Limbaugh and the like.

It's unfortunate that a few here feel the need to continually interject it into otherwise apolitical threads.

But please realize it is only a small, but very vocal, minority of Americans that wallow in it.

[vvanders]

Your point is to turn another thread into a political poo-flinging contest. I'm not sure if you post anything else on this forum, but it's certainly the only thing I ever notice you doing. I'm rather tired of it.

It's interesting that from all the political opinions in this thread you complain only about mine. Let me guess, it doesn't match yours.

He's not the only one.

Why don't we try to keep things a bit on topic rather than what happens with the EV threads and the like.

[mtdoc]

I almost seriously considered voting for Antarctica based on This Amp Hour Episode!

Shaun Meehan who worked there doing electronics for 2 years made it sound fun!

[vk6zgo]

I almost seriously considered voting for Antarctica based on This Amp Hour Episode!

Shaun Meehan who worked there doing electronics for 2 years made it sound fun!

I did!!