Why has Sweden got it right with high tech?

[VK3DRB]

http://media.theage.com.au/national/selections/sweden-vies-as-hightech-hub-5738252.html

One in five people in Sweden are employed in the technology sector. This poses the question... What is wrong with the rest of us?

What is it about Sweden... a smarter people, a better culture, or unlike most other countries do their politicians actually have a mission statement?

One of Australia's former Minister for Communications and Information Technology (Helen Coonan) proved during two interviews on the ABC that she had no idea what bandwidth was. Would things be a lot better if those with technical skills, enthusiasm and appreciation (like Dave) were at the helm setting policy, rather than ex-lawyer bozos?

Does anyone else know why the Swedes have done so well after Volvo and ABBA?

[GK]

But have a look at what a large swath of those "technology" companies produce - bullshit like smart phone games and "apps" and personal virtual avatars for shoe fitting? Perhaps the Swedes have a lot of frivolous leisure time to burn and there is a larger than average vacuous void to fill with the production of this crap.

I almost ran over a woman transfixed on some stupid app on her dumb phone a while ago. If more of this is the future fruit of the science and technology industry then I'd prefer a return to the dark ages (almost). Tony Abbobt is the man! F%$# the NBN!

Oh, and it's a fine democratic tradition in our country that any sufficiently fortunate dumbo can hold any portfolio in government. You want a science minister (we still have one of those, don't we?) that has some kind of qualification and life experience in science? What? Are you mad?
 

[Bored@Work]

It is called socialism, the Swedish version. Not the bullshit Americans get in indoctrinated with under the name "Socialism".

In 2001 Forbes was shitting all over themselves trying to characterize what is going on in Sweden with all those bad, bad, socialism and new entrepreneurship http://www.forbes.com/global/2001/0319/034.html

Now, 13 years later Sweden still reaps what it sow at the end of the 90th -and still runs their socialistic society.

[VK3DRB]

It is called socialism, the Swedish version. Not the bullshit Americans get in indoctrinated with under the name "Socialism".

In 2001 Forbes was shitting all over themselves trying to characterize what is going on in Sweden with all those bad, bad, socialism and new entrepreneurship http://www.forbes.com/global/2001/0319/034.html

Now, 13 years later Sweden still reaps what it sow at the end of the 90th -and still runs their socialistic society.

It is likely Sweden has problems as well with rogue multinationals like Apple and Google. The big problem is companies like Apple and Google do everything in their power to minimise their taxes to obscenely low levels in the countries they do business in. It is up to the governments of the world to work together to bring them to account - literally.

In one large country, try and take a dollar away from a greedy billionaire, and they will call you a socialist. Increase the taxes on the super rich so they pay their fair share, and you are communist. But communism and capitalism meet at the same point - wealth and power in the hands of a few.

[miguelvp]

I just wished I lived in a tax haven country to take the edge off, instead of in a place where the local corporations move money to other countries that offer them tax benefits.

[dannyf]

One in five people in Sweden are employed in the technology sector. This poses the question... What is wrong with the rest of us?

Thing go in cycles. When a country / people are at their most prosperous, they tend to do stupid things. Initially, those stupid things wouldn't have significant negative impact but they have set up the country on the wrong path and lead them to their eventual demise.

That demise may take years or decades or centuries.

So the fact we cannot see the immediate negative impact of those things doesn't by itself mean those things have no negative impact.

In the case of Sweden, you have ample examples of demises there, over the last 10 - 30 years.

More in Europe and the US.

[VK3DRB]

But have a look at what a large swath of those "technology" companies produce - bullshit like smart phone games and "apps" and personal virtual avatars for shoe fitting? Perhaps the Swedes have a lot of frivolous leisure time to burn and there is a larger than average vacuous void to fill with the production of this crap.

I almost ran over a woman transfixed on some stupid app on her dumb phone a while ago. If more of this is the future fruit of the science and technology industry then I'd prefer a return to the dark ages (almost). Tony Abbobt is the man! F%$# the NBN!

Oh, and it's a fine democratic tradition in our country that any sufficiently fortunate dumbo can hold any portfolio in government. You want a science minister (we still have one of those, don't we?) that has some kind of qualification and life experience in science? What? Are you mad?

Here is a good application the Swedes invented... Skype.

Tony Abbott bragged a couple of years ago he did not know how to use a laptop, identifying himself as an idiot. Tony Abbott also decided not to bother with a Minister of Science and Technology. The bloke is a short sighted fool.

Having lived in Austin Texas what really impressed me was their superior culture to technology. Electronics companies everywhere in a small city. IBM, Qualcomm, Dell, Texas Instruments, Motorola, and others. What have you in your neighbourhood that is a technology brand known by consumers the world over?

[dannyf]

Here is a good application the Swedes invented... Skype.

Not sure if it is good - the jury is still out on that one.

Those guys are incredibly lucky, however.

identifying himself as an idiot.

There are plenty of idiots who are super-proficient in laptops / computers; And there are plenty of geniuses who don't use laptops / computers. The use of a computer doesn't make you a genius or idiot. The only sure thing  you can count on is that only an idiot will use that as a standard to judge if a person is an idiot or not.

Having lived in Austin Texas what really impressed me was their superior culture to technology.

You have the initial flight of tech companies from the north east to California; and then from California to Texas, Arizona, or Colorado, etc.

It is incredibly insightful to see what those folks were running away from,

[zapta]

One in five people in Sweden are employed in the technology sector. ..

Any notable achievements?

[tszaboo]

One in five people in Sweden are employed in the technology sector. ..

Any notable achievements?

Gamma knife, dynamite, electrophoresis, digitizer, tetra pak. Not to mention Nobel was from there.

[miguelvp]

This century after one in five are in the technology sector?

[dannyf]

Not to mention Nobel was from there.

Diary products, chocolates, mechanical watches (that's almost a scam, however).

....

The list is fairly long.

But that doesn't mean that their socialism is good - who's to say they wouldn't have done far better had they embraced capitalism?

[nixxon]

It is called socialism, the Swedish version. Not the bullshit Americans get in indoctrinated with under the name "Socialism".
(...)

It is called "Social democracy".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

or The Nordic model (or Nordic capitalism or Nordic social democracy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

[zapta]

One in five people in Sweden are employed in the technology sector. ..

Any notable achievements?

Gamma knife, dynamite, electrophoresis, digitizer, tetra pak. Not to mention Nobel was from there.

Nobel died more than 100 years ago. Did you have to go that far to find notable technological achievements?

The OP implied that Sweden is a technological marvel that we should all emulate.

[dannyf]

It wouldn't surprise me if the upward mobility in such a society is small.

Doesn't seem to me that I was far off there.

Here is a list of the richest people in sweden: http://www.worldsrichpeople.com/richest-people-in-sweden.html

Count the number of times the word "inherited" showed up on that list,

To me, Sweden is a heaven for the rich far more than it is for those poor who want to move up through hard work.

[zapta]

It is called "Social democracy".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

or The Nordic model (or Nordic capitalism or Nordic social democracy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

From the second link:

"Overall tax burdens (as a percentage of GDP) are among the world's highest; Sweden (51.1%), Denmark (46% in 2011),[22] and Finland (43.3%), compared to non-Nordic countries like Germany (34.7%), Canada (33.5%), and Ireland (30.5%)."

"Sweden at 56.6% of GDP, Denmark at 51.7%, and Finland at 48.6% reflects very high public spending.[16] One key reason for public spending is the large number of public employees. These employees work in various fields including education, healthcare, and for the government itself. They often have lifelong job security and make up around a third of the workforce (more than 38% in Denmark)."

Its socialism but with less corruption that the usual.

[G0HZU]

The swedes have always been my favourite customer at my place of work (comms/defence). They are the most relaxed and pleasant, have good humour, are always polite and respectful and are also the brightest with the best attention to detail.

[tszaboo]

One in five people in Sweden are employed in the technology sector. ..

Any notable achievements?

Gamma knife, dynamite, electrophoresis, digitizer, tetra pak. Not to mention Nobel was from there.

Nobel died more than 100 years ago. Did you have to go that far to find notable technological achievements?

The OP implied that Sweden is a technological marvel that we should all emulate.

The fact that it is still considered as the highest achievement in science tells it all.

[vk6zgo]

Increase the taxes on the super rich so they pay their fair share

For that sentence to be meaningful and fair, you have to define "super rich/rich" and "fair share".

This reminds me of an interview I heard yesterday of an advocate of higher minimum wages. She cited a recent survey where 90%+ of the people surveyed voiced their strong support for a "fair wage" for those minimum wage workers -> she used that as her basis for a $15/hr new minimum wage.

One would have to be severely intellectually challenged to not see the flaw in her argument there.

PS: I was actually surprised that the 90% number wasn't higher,

Considering that surveys are done using a fairly small sample,pollsters usually take pains to cover as wide a range of socio-economic groups as they can.
I assume your argument is that it was taken exclusively among those who would benefit.

Her argument was superficial,but no more than your own.

[vk6zgo]

http://media.theage.com.au/national/selections/sweden-vies-as-hightech-hub-5738252.html

One in five people in Sweden are employed in the technology sector. This poses the question... What is wrong with the rest of us?

What is it about Sweden... a smarter people, a better culture, or unlike most other countries do their politicians actually have a mission statement?

One of Australia's former Minister for Communications and Information Technology (Helen Coonan) proved during two interviews on the ABC that she had no idea what bandwidth was. Would things be a lot better if those with technical skills, enthusiasm and appreciation (like Dave) were at the helm setting policy, rather than ex-lawyer bozos?

Does anyone else know why the Swedes have done so well after Volvo and ABBA?

Bandwidth has only one real meaning--------- the width of Electromagnetic spectrum occupied by a signal,or available for such a signal.
Many IT people misuse the term "bandwidth".to indicate  what you might call  more correctly "virtual bandwidth".

Modern digital compression & modulation methods offer ways to reduce the real bandwidth required for a signal well below that for the raw signal----in other words "virtual bandwidth".

Computer people delight in taking well known terms & giving them silly new meanings.
Remember the computers with a "Turbo" button?

[zapta]

The fact that it is still considered as the highest achievement in science tells it all.

Granting prizes is not a technological achievement.

[dannyf]

The fact that it is still considered as the highest achievement in science tells it all.

I think it tells far more about those people who considered it as the highest achievement in science than about science itself.

I assume your argument is that it was taken exclusively among those who would benefit.

You assumed wrong.

[vk6zgo]

The fact that it is still considered as the highest achievement in science tells it all.

I think it tells far more about those people who considered it as the highest achievement in science than about science itself.

I assume your argument is that it was taken exclusively among those who would benefit.

You assumed wrong.

I guess I must be "severely intellectually challenged" then!

[dannyf]

I guess I must be "severely intellectually challenged" then!

The good news is that you are in good company,

Most people are "reasonable" in their own ways. So most people would want a "reasonable" wages for everyone, even though "reasonable" wages may mean differently for different people.

The survey explored that fuzziness. Rather than presenting a specific number or a range of numbers (so to eliminate such subjectivity), they asked if the subject supported "reasonable" wage - obviously most of them said "yes".

The lady then translated that support for "reasonable" but undefined wage as a basis to justify her specific demand for minimum wage, to imply that 90%+ of the people surveyed supported her specific minimum wage. When in fact, those people only supported an undefined "reasonable" wage because that was the question asked of them.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to spot such dishonest propagandists - I think they teach that in elementary schools. But it is unfortunate that people like the lady prey on the less-than-informed.

[tszaboo]

The fact that it is still considered as the highest achievement in science tells it all.

I think it tells far more about those people who considered it as the highest achievement in science than about science itself.

Having a bad day?

[dannyf]

No. Everyday is a great day for me.

[vk6zgo]

I guess I must be "severely intellectually challenged" then!

The good news is that you are in good company,

Most people are "reasonable" in their own ways. So most people would want a "reasonable" wages for everyone, even though "reasonable" wages may mean differently for different people.

The survey explored that fuzziness. Rather than presenting a specific number or a range of numbers (so to eliminate such subjectivity), they asked if the subject supported "reasonable" wage - obviously most of them said "yes".

The lady then translated that support for "reasonable" but undefined wage as a basis to justify her specific demand for minimum wage, to imply that 90%+ of the people surveyed supported her specific minimum wage. When in fact, those people only supported an undefined "reasonable" wage because that was the question asked of them.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to spot such dishonest propagandists - I think they teach that in elementary schools. But it is unfortunate that people like the lady prey on the less-than-informed.

In fact,many people may have supported a considerably greater minimum wage,so it works both ways.

Your method of propagandising for your preferred economic model seem to rely upon "If you don't agree with me,you are stupid"-------How is that any less dishonest?
You seem to have backed down from "severely intellectually challenged" to "most people",when you were called on it,though.

The funny thing is that many countries do have a higher minimum wage than your country,so it is hardly the road to perdition!

[Galenbo]

One in five people in Sweden are employed in the technology sector.

"employed" and "technology sector" have to be specified, after that a comparison with other countries is possible.
Better also convert "one-in-five people" to the total worked hours a year, they like 6-hours work days, halftime and very long vacations there.

[dannyf]

In fact,many people *******may********* have supported a considerably greater minimum wage,

In fact, many more people may have supported a considerably lower minimum wage, or no minimum wage at all.

In fact, the point you seem to struggle to understand is that the survey in the said interview does not provide support for the specific minimum wage the lady said it did.

In fact, she was simply taking advantage of those intellectually challenged and less-than-informed listeners.

Hope it helps.

[Kjelt]

As I see the movie it is all virtual (new apps) which does not have to be bad it is just another mindset.
A business not having to invest heavily to generate products that may not sell or a startup company with a few people writing an app that sells big time.
My opinion: these waves of (virtual) products is going over the whole globe dynamically, they come and go (remember Nokia from Finland). Trends are going to be faster and small businesses will have short times of glory and then decay because they do not have (virtual) products that keep on appealing. It is the same with music, there are only a few singers/bands that still produce good 2nd, 3rd albums, hell even a good 2nd number, most have a single week of glory in the spotlight and are forgotten over time.

[wiss]

One in five people in Sweden are employed in the technology sector.

"employed" and "technology sector" have to be specified, after that a comparison with other countries is possible.
Better also convert "one-in-five people" to the total worked hours a year, they like 6-hours work days, halftime and very long vacations there.

In the tech-sector, industry and university, 8h days are the norm. 5 weeks of paid vacation is law, state employees often have more, I have 35 days (I think).

Many secretaries here at the uni and various service-workers often have part-time and stuff.

[Alexei.Polkhanov]

When I was approached by recruiter year ago - position was in Stockholm, online gaming, and then I found out how much taxes I have to pay !!! My answer was like NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKING  WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!

[Kjelt]

When I was approached by recruiter year ago - position was in Stockholm, online gaming, and then I found out how much taxes I have to pay !!! My answer was like NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKING  WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!

Maybe you should change you,re way of thinking, it does not matter how many taxes you have to pay, it matters how much you will end up having in the pocket after taxes.
So if a company wants you, tell them what you want to hVe after taxes.
By the way a lot of nordic countries incl. Holland have special taxrates for "foreign" employees. I do not understand it my self why a foreigner would pay much less taxes then me but this is actual the case.

[dannyf]

Maybe a foreigner doesn't use as much government services.

lower rates for foreigners do create a political problem as it incentivizes employers to hire foreigners.

[Alexei.Polkhanov]

Maybe because as foreigner I will not be using all the social services that locals are entitled to or because they realize that to lure skilled professionals in they need to give some incentives. Of course everyone asks to compensate for taxes but in order to match what engineer makes in US minus tax it turns into "ridiculous number". Take into consideration things like taxes on new(-ish) car, mortgage rates and other jazz ... I don't understand how people live there at all?

I think it is all fake - government take enormous taxes and then distribute them among companies they like as "incentives". Province of Quebec in Canada does same for example - that is why business-oriented people run away from there like rats from sinking ship. I worked there for 2 years. I had to pay extra 6% in tax over British Columbia. So it looks like there is a "progress" when in reality 80 to 90% of all companies will run away immediately if incentives stop coming.

[zapta]

By the way a lot of nordic countries incl. Holland have special taxrates for "foreign" employees. I do not understand it my self why a foreigner would pay much less taxes then me but this is actual the case.

Because foreigners have other choices. That the power of competition.

[zapta]

I think it is all fake - government take enormous taxes and then distribute them among companies they like as "incentives". Province of Quebec in Canada does same for example - that is why business-oriented people run away from there like rats from sinking ship. I worked there for 2 years. I had to pay extra 6% in tax over British Columbia. So it looks like there is a "progress" when in reality 80 to 90% of all companies will run away immediately if incentives stop coming.

In Sweden about one out of 3 workers work for the government and the government spends majority of the GDP. It's a very different model of doing things.

[miguelvp]

Salaries in the whole EU for programmers are extremely low compared to the US and you have to pay more taxes and everything is more expensive (other than maybe alcohol)

I did contemplate working in Europe as until I found out the salaries that will put me to the same level of pay as 25 years ago.

Unless I'm building my own company I wouldn't touch Europe with 3.048 meter pole.

[dannyf]

Salaries in the whole EU for programmers are extremely low compared to the US and you have to pay more taxes and everything is more expensive (other than maybe alcohol)

Looks like there is downside to the distributive policies of that left utopia.

I have always wondered why the advocates of wealth redistribution are always interested in redistributing other people's wealth, not their own.

[vk6zgo]

In fact,many people *******may********* have supported a considerably greater minimum wage,

In fact, many more people may have supported a considerably lower minimum wage, or no minimum wage at all.

In fact, the point you seem to struggle to understand is that the survey in the said interview does not provide support for the specific minimum wage the lady said it did.

In fact, she was simply taking advantage of those intellectually challenged and less-than-informed listeners.

Hope it helps.

Yes,she was arguing from the general to the specific---bad lady!

Or perhaps she just made an unjustified intuitive leap,& was led astray by her own prejudice.

A bit like yourself in Reply#18.

[vk6zgo]

While dannyf & I (+ others)have been going round in circles with a lot of off-topic stuff,the original topic has been lost.

Looking back at the original video,it's the kind of "fluff" piece you often see on TV.
Sort of "Rah!,Rah! Ain't Sweden great!"but lacking any real depth.

There were a lot of these about Ireland prior to the Global Economic Crisis--"Celtic Tiger",& so on.
Going further back, in the 1980s there were the "Asian Tigers" before that all went pear-shaped!

In the current video,the examples of "high tech" seemed incredibly light weight--maybe it is because the News Department feel that they understand Games & avatars etc,more than Telephone Exchanges & supersonic aircraft.
Or maybe earnest young people go over better than crusty old industrialists.

Sweden has been fairly "high tech" for many years----It's stance as an "Armed Neutral" led to the design of Military aircraft of equal or better performance than that of the USSR or NATO during the Cold War period.
The automotive industry has also done well.
I mentioned Telephone Exchanges earlier,because most such Exchanges in Australia over tens of years were made by Ericsson.

Sweden is a small country with a small population,-------it cannot be directly compared to the USA ,which is a very large country with a very large population,or Australia,which is a very large country with a small population.

[Dago]

Salaries in the whole EU for programmers are extremely low compared to the US and you have to pay more taxes and everything is more expensive (other than maybe alcohol)

Looks like there is downside to the distributive policies of that left utopia.

Well naturally the wages SHOULD be considerably higher in the US because you don't get anything from the government. In the EU for example all the retirement plans and health care etc. are usually mandatory so you do not have to spend a dime on them (or well it's spend on your behalf).

Kinda breaks my heart to read on reddit or somewhere where someones parents have not saved (or lost their savings due to an illness without insurance etc.) and then they have nothing when they are supposed to retire. Cannot happen here thankfully.

[zapta]

Sweden has been fairly "high tech" for many years----It's stance as an "Armed Neutral" led to the design of Military aircraft of equal or better performance than that of the USSR or NATO during the Cold War period.
The automotive industry has also done well.
I mentioned Telephone Exchanges earlier,because most such Exchanges in Australia over tens of years were made by Ericsson.

.. and some of the finest non nuclear submarines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland-class_submarine

Sweden is a small country with a small population,-------it cannot be directly compared to the USA ,which is a very large country with a very large population,or Australia,which is a very large country with a small population.

[dannyf]

It's stance as an "Armed Neutral" led to the design of Military aircraft of equal or better performance than that of the USSR or NATO during the Cold War period.

The automotive industry has also done well.

So well actually you cannot see them anymore,

With their current immigration trend they will became a Caliphate by 2050.

Good for them.

[dave_k]

Having lived in Austin Texas what really impressed me was their superior culture to technology. Electronics companies everywhere in a small city. IBM, Qualcomm, Dell, Texas Instruments, Motorola, and others. What have you in your neighbourhood that is a technology brand known by consumers the world over?

Cochlear, Macquarie Park NSW