why is the US not Metric

[richard.cs]

You've just totally missed the point haven't you? Y'all have spent the last two pages bitching backwards and forwards about whether the US should or should not change their road signs, and I'm saying that it's inconsequential whether they should or not - and demonstrating that inconsequentiality by pointing out that the UK uses metric for everything else, yet hasn't changed from a Imperial units for road mileage or speed signs with no adverse consequences of not changing.

UK road signs are very mixed, yes distances are in miles and yards and speeds in MPH, but vehicle weights are in metric tonnes (1000 kg)*, bridge heights are dual-units (required only since 2016 but pretty universal before that). Motorway signage is more metric than the rest - distance markers are at 100 m spacing and so on in preparation for the "impending" complete metrication planned for the early 1980s.

*Yes, this is really mass.

[Cerebus]

"Jack & Jenny Australia" not knowing, or perhaps not caring, use them to put their pergola together, & call it good.

"Bruce and Sheila Australia" surely? 

[vk6zgo]

"Jack & Jenny Australia" not knowing, or perhaps not caring, use them to put their pergola together, & call it good.

"Bruce and Sheila Australia" surely? 

More likely "Peyton & Ryder", these days.

[Electro Detective]

"Jack & Jenny Australia" not knowing, or perhaps not caring, use them to put their pergola together, & call it good.

"Bruce and Sheila Australia" surely? 

More likely "Peyton & Ryder", these days.

"Peyton & Ryder" > Yes, we have winner 

It seems too many disappointed grandparents that Willed their kids their entire deceased estates from years of saving every penny,
sweat and toil at dead end stressful jobs
to keep up the mortgage payments and put food in mouths and humble luxuries,

had uncool names to pass on to the grandkids as per usual, sort of expected, traditions and respect

The next lot will likely get a 'name' combo of numbers, avatars, meme themes,
and tattooed on so they don't forget.. 

[KL27x]

inflammatory comment

Well, looks like it's just us. We're all true believers, now.



So this is what happens in the VIP section. Baby names.



Metric is cool.


So peaceful when everybody is the same page.


It's like we all agree.


I like Bruce.

I like progress. Progress is cool. So grown-up.

[ebastler]

...

What's the matter, KL27x? Frustrated that people have stopped quarreling about metrification in the last couple of posts? Maybe everybody just got bored with the topic.

Honestly, I think it would be good for you let this thread rest too. For reasons which are beyond me, you seem to be taking this matter rather personally. Not a recipe for happiness...

[tooki]

...

What's the matter, KL27x? Frustrated that people have stopped quarreling about metrification in the last couple of posts? Maybe everybody just got bored with the topic.

Honestly, I think it would be good for you let this thread rest too. For reasons which are beyond me, you seem to be taking this matter rather personally. Not a recipe for happiness...

Really? I think there are others in this thread who have taken it way, way more personally than KL27x...

[KL27x]

ebastler:

What's the matter, KL27x? Frustrated that people have stopped quarreling about metrification in the last couple of posts? Maybe everybody just got bored with the topic.

Honestly, I think it would be good for you let this thread rest too. For reasons which are beyond me, you seem to be taking this matter rather personally. Not a recipe for happiness...

Thank you Ebastler, and Tooki for your concern.

There is no frustration. I have accepted metric into my heart. So now, we can stop to worry about making half our signs to metric and half imperial. We can spend all the money on the parade. And you are all invited. We will have knitting, meters and meters of yarn for all.

When I go to the hardware store, it will be so much better to be able to buy wood in 40x90's. No more 2x4's. That was silly. Now I will be able to buy wood by the liter. It's like being in the Matrix and seeing the 1's and 0's for what they truly are. Metric isn't just another arbitrary system. It's the one and only truth; you just have to accept it. The physical universe was made in meters. It's not a measuring system; it's reality.

"I'll take 1200 L of pine"

"Yes, I got you *wink wink*. And I don't even need a calculator. Just drive around back. Here, you'll need these tie downs, too. I can tell by looking at your truck, it can only hold 1100 L in the bed."

We lock at eyes and we say, in unison, "Ain't metric swell?" Bink!

Within only one generation, my kids will give you a blank stare if you say "inch." That's when the real progress will kick in. These kids will make us flying cars any day now. These same kids will also give you a blank stare when the total is 10.21, and you hand them a 20 and a 1. But as long as they are unhampered by imperial, they will be unstoppable. Just like the kids in UK and Canada and Australia, today.

America is making great strides in oxycontin abuse, right now, as well. But if we divert this money to metric, I'm sure drug abuse will just disappear on its own. It's probably a side effect of the frustration that imperial gives us as Americans. The happiness we have when we realize how superior we are to a country-not-named-Rowanda will be incredible. We will all be high on life.

[Cubdriver]

Hmmm...  As an engineer, have you ever done any sort of cost-benefit analysis?  Again - what benefit would the United States see from the extensive cost of changing all the road signs from imperial to metric?  Remember, this is not a clean sheet choice, but a choice to change an extensive infrastructure that already exists and is perfectly functional in its current state.

Going metric pays off.
Knock yourself out.

Yep.  Pretty sure that I've acknowledged that going metric in industry is a good thing.  Believe that I've said that a few times in this thread.  But I saw nothing in your link that said anything about changing road signs - yet again, you have typed a response but failed to answer my question.  For clarity, that question has been bolded, enlarged and changed to red in the embedded post, since the non-answer you provided leads me to believe that you somehow failed to see it when you typed the above reply.

And now I'll repeat it here, yet another time since it keeps slipping past you.  What economic benefit would the United States derive from spending unknown billions of dollars to change existing road signs from their current form with archaic miles, feet, and inches to meters and kilometers?  What is the cost-benefit of making this major change?

Is there something about my question that you don't understand?  It seems pretty straightforward to me.  If you're missing something about it, please let me know and I will attempt to rephrase it more to your liking.  Or is it simply that you're avoiding it because you don't have a good reason to justify spending what it would cost to make the change?

-Pat

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

  (Thread locked in 3, 2, 1... )

[Tepe]

When I go to the hardware store, it will be so much better to be able to buy wood in 40x90's. No more 2x4's.

Around here we have 45x95 mm.

[xrunner]

When I go to the hardware store, it will be so much better to be able to buy wood in 40x90's. No more 2x4's.

... which are actually 1 1/2 x 3 1/2. 

[KL27x]

... which are actually 1 1/2 x 3 1/2. 

Yeah, what kind of idiot calls a "one and a half by 3 and a half" a "two by four?" This is almost like rounding up just to make it easier to say. Why would anyone round to whole numbers? That's so quaint.

(I would have called it a "38.1 x 88.9," but I thought we metric club will also maybe round things and is ok?).

In metrication day, we will also send people to jobsites to inform them that "Sawsall is a trademark, folks. You are using a reciprocating saw. Please to use the proper name." This is true progress. 3x the syllables, 3x the accuracy. No more people thinking Milwaukee is the only company making reciprocating saws and the resulting mass confusion.

Also note to everyone. Please stop calling it weight, when everyone knows beyond a shadow of doubt you mean mass. This is holding up our flying cars and will cause confusion when we live on Mars.

While we're at it, repeat after me "facial tissue." You can do it. It's one small step for man, one giant leap towards flying cars.

[KL27x]

Around here we have 45x95 mm.

So we all know the 2x4" starts out as ~2.0 x 4.0" at the lumbermill. And that it ends up ~1.5" x3.5" after letting it dry and warp and it gets recut. But even if it started out 2.5 x 4.5" at the mill, we would still call it a 2x4, because it's close to that when we get it.

45 x 95mm is not what 1.5 x2.5" rounds to. It's 38.1mm x 88.9mm. This rounds closer to 40 x 90. Is this a case of "Hey, if Americans can call it 2 x 4, it's not fair we have to call it a 40 x 90. It makes their price look better. Why not call it a 45 x 95!?"

I wonder if it's actually a different size or they also try to play some inflated number game? In America a 2x4 is actually very, very close to 1.50 x 3.50".

[Tepe]

45 x 95mm is not what 1.5 x2.5" rounds to. It's 38.1mm x 88.9mm. This rounds closer to 40 x 90. Is this a case of "Hey, if Americans can call it 2 x 4, it's not fair we have to call it a 40 x 90. It makes their price look better. Why not call it a 45 x 95!?"

The 45x95 started out as 50x100 ...

Random link: https://wood-online.dk/shop/reglar-45x95-mm-1361p.html

[KL27x]

I wonder why american construction/framing wood warps more than metric structural wood. Loss of 12mm per side vs only 5. It's mostly pine and douglas fir, here, I think.

[Tepe]

I wonder why american structural wood warps more than metric structural wood. Loss of 12mm per side vs only 5.

Maybe it is cut after being fully dried? Or different species of softwood shrink differently?
The 5 mm reduction might be due to planing.

[KL27x]

Depends on the wood maybe. But most of our boards come from trees that have to be cut into slabs first before drying. Or it will take too long and the logs will develop large cracks, ruining more wood. Or something like that, I take it.

**Meanwhile, the future has already arrived in my very own kitchen. My GF chose new kitchen under-cabinet LED lighting. Our handyman is installing them, right now.

Rob: There is no switch. You can control it with your smart phone.

Me: How convenient!  (I think he picked up on my sarcasm).

Rob: You can use Alexa, too.

Me: Great. We have the wireless version.

I point over to my GF's Echo, she uses as a paper weight.

[boffin]

And now I'll repeat it here, yet another time since it keeps slipping past you.  What economic benefit would the United States derive from spending unknown billions of dollars to change existing road signs from their current form with archaic miles, feet, and inches to meters and kilometers?  What is the cost-benefit of making this major change?

Economy of scale.

Right now manufacturers around the world have to produce DIFFERENT cars with MPH on them for the US (and one or two other) markets.  having to make separate versions is why it's worth it in the long run.  The manufactures know this, that's why cars are (mostly) metric fasteners these days.

The fact that a lot of Americans can't grasp this argument, or are too arrogant to accept it; is why everyone here is banging their head against the wall.   

[KL27x]

And now I'll repeat it here, yet another time since it keeps slipping past you.  What economic benefit would the United States derive from spending unknown billions of dollars to change existing road signs from their current form with archaic miles, feet, and inches to meters and kilometers?  What is the cost-benefit of making this major change?

Economy of scale.

Right now manufacturers around the world have to produce DIFFERENT cars with MPH on them for the US (and one or two other) markets.  having to make separate versions is why it's worth it in the long run.  The manufactures know this, that's why cars are (mostly) metric fasteners these days.

The fact that a lot of Americans can't grasp this argument, or are too arrogant to accept it; is why everyone here is banging their head against the wall.

Now that I am metric, I grasp it, finally. We will save $10,000 a year, easy.

For some much larger savings, we should make only 3 cars.  We will have a 4 door midsize sedan, a pickup truck, and at least in America we will have an SUV. For efficiency, I propose we call them "car, truck, SUV." We have wasted too much brain power to "1969 Camaro, and Ford Bronco." We could all just say "car" and instantly be on the same page. When we go to the auto parts store for a filter, he will ask "car?" And we will say "yes."

For further savings, car, truck, and SUV will be available in white or white.

Two different odometers is breaking the system. We have all these options like sunroof? Digitial radio? Rear air bags? Undercarriage treatment? 22" rims? Leather upholstery? But damn if we can just get rid of the miles, it's all blue skies.

All these people making different colors of paint and making odometers in miles, we can get them working on flying cars right now, today. Cuz they still need to eat. And our budget for metrication will include giving these guys some new COOL jobs. All these engineers making all these redundant models of cars... they won't have jobs, either. It's ok, cuz they will all work on flying cars, together. Paid by the metrication fund and when that runs out, warm fuzzy feelings.

[Cubdriver]

And now I'll repeat it here, yet another time since it keeps slipping past you.  What economic benefit would the United States derive from spending unknown billions of dollars to change existing road signs from their current form with archaic miles, feet, and inches to meters and kilometers?  What is the cost-benefit of making this major change?

Economy of scale.

Right now manufacturers around the world have to produce DIFFERENT cars with MPH on them for the US (and one or two other) markets.  having to make separate versions is why it's worth it in the long run.  The manufactures know this, that's why cars are (mostly) metric fasteners these days.

The fact that a lot of Americans can't grasp this argument, or are too arrogant to accept it; is why everyone here is banging their head against the wall.

And car manufacturers saving a nickel a car because they only need to make one speedometer overlay provides a benefit to the taxpayers who'll be on the hook for billions of needless spending HOW exactly?  Isn't the UK still using miles on their roads, too?  Oh yeah - they drive on the left as well.  If needing mph/kph scales on the speedometer alone is so arrogant and justification for that sort of cost in your eyes, what about them, requiring not only mph markings but also needing the controls to be on the other side of the car?  I'd wager that costs a bit more than the speedo overlay...  Maybe you should start with lobbying against left-hand drive - much better economies of scale to be gained there than with a relatively small screen-printed plastic gauge face, and I think more countries drive on the right than the left.

Sorry, you're going to have to do better than speedometer markings to justify spending that kind of taxpayer $$ on something.

[KL27x]

Maybe America can start marketing cars with metric meters. And offer them at a substantial discount. Like $20.00 off. Or if they want, they can choose to pay full price and donate that $20.00 to Save-a-Road-Sign fund. With this selection, you get a special pink and purple rubber bracelet to wear, so everyone knows how woke you are. It will have cm markings on it, and will say "Got Metric?"

Metrication fund will pay Kim Kardashian a million dollars to post photos of herself in front of her car odometer, and with some cute hashtag #gometric-gohumanity.

With Kardasian power, we will have enough money in no time to begin permanently fucking our road signs like UK.

If you guys think this is a joke, you are mistaken. If Kim Kardashian can't get Americans to care, what chance is there?

[bsfeechannel]

Yep.  Pretty sure that I've acknowledged that going metric in industry is a good thing.  Believe that I've said that a few times in this thread.  But I saw nothing in your link that said anything about changing road signs - yet again, you have typed a response but failed to answer my question.  For clarity, that question has been bolded, enlarged and changed to red in the embedded post, since the non-answer you provided leads me to believe that you somehow failed to see it when you typed the above reply.

And now I'll repeat it here, yet another time since it keeps slipping past you.  What economic benefit would the United States derive from spending unknown billions of dollars to change existing road signs from their current form with archaic miles, feet, and inches to meters and kilometers?  What is the cost-benefit of making this major change?

Is there something about my question that you don't understand?  It seems pretty straightforward to me.  If you're missing something about it, please let me know and I will attempt to rephrase it more to your liking.  Or is it simply that you're avoiding it because you don't have a good reason to justify spending what it would cost to make the change?

-Pat

Can't you see the forest for the trees? Just extrapolate to the whole country the benefits these companies had from investing in the use of metric instead of imperial and that's it.

It is intuitive.

[Cubdriver]

Yep.  Pretty sure that I've acknowledged that going metric in industry is a good thing.  Believe that I've said that a few times in this thread.  But I saw nothing in your link that said anything about changing road signs - yet again, you have typed a response but failed to answer my question.  For clarity, that question has been bolded, enlarged and changed to red in the embedded post, since the non-answer you provided leads me to believe that you somehow failed to see it when you typed the above reply.

And now I'll repeat it here, yet another time since it keeps slipping past you.  What economic benefit would the United States derive from spending unknown billions of dollars to change existing road signs from their current form with archaic miles, feet, and inches to meters and kilometers?  What is the cost-benefit of making this major change?

Is there something about my question that you don't understand?  It seems pretty straightforward to me.  If you're missing something about it, please let me know and I will attempt to rephrase it more to your liking.  Or is it simply that you're avoiding it because you don't have a good reason to justify spending what it would cost to make the change?

-Pat

Can't you see the forest for the trees? Just extrapolate to the whole country the benefits these companies had from investing in the use of metric instead of imperial and that's it.

It is intuitive.

So, like me, you cannot come up with a good reason to spend all that money to change out all the highway signs.  Cool.

-Pat

[CatalinaWOW]

Yep.  Pretty sure that I've acknowledged that going metric in industry is a good thing.  Believe that I've said that a few times in this thread.  But I saw nothing in your link that said anything about changing road signs - yet again, you have typed a response but failed to answer my question.  For clarity, that question has been bolded, enlarged and changed to red in the embedded post, since the non-answer you provided leads me to believe that you somehow failed to see it when you typed the above reply.

And now I'll repeat it here, yet another time since it keeps slipping past you.  What economic benefit would the United States derive from spending unknown billions of dollars to change existing road signs from their current form with archaic miles, feet, and inches to meters and kilometers?  What is the cost-benefit of making this major change?

Is there something about my question that you don't understand?  It seems pretty straightforward to me.  If you're missing something about it, please let me know and I will attempt to rephrase it more to your liking.  Or is it simply that you're avoiding it because you don't have a good reason to justify spending what it would cost to make the change?

-Pat

Can't you see the forest for the trees? Just extrapolate to the whole country the benefits these companies had from investing in the use of metric instead of imperial and that's it.

It is intuitive.

There is a reason engineers and accountants use equations, calculators and computers rather than intuition.  Car industry wanted to export cars.  They could calculate sales from exports, and scale savings from having one worldwide set of parts.  And converted as a result.  So did HP/Agilent and AFAIK Tektronix and most other industries.  Are you proposing that America can export its roads after remarking them in metric.  Or are you proposing that some portion of the world is not visiting the US for fear of driving with different units than they are used to, thus depriving us of tourism dollars.  I can assure you that the national parks are already filled to capacity with tourists from Japan, Germany, France and other fully metric countries as well as from India, England and Australia to name a few incompletely or recently metric countries. 

What Cubdriver and I are asking is a specific, quantifiable advantage of switching US road markings to metric.  The only savings thus far identified is elimination of a few lines of software in the speedometer and perhaps a print mask for the same.  This is weighed against the cost of changing signage, documentation (the myriad of laws associated with vehicle sales and operation) and vehicle accidents resulting from either honest or duplicitous confusion (honest officer, the sign said the curve could be taken at 120 and I was only doing 115.  I forgot that those numbers aren't mph).  The legal costs are probably the real issue.  A mile is internationally defined as 1609.344 meters.  So when you convert to metric how do you convert the 18 cents/mile tax for vehicle class X?  Do you convert the rate to metric (11.18468146027201145311381531854 cents per kilometer) and then multiply by kilometers? Can you round the rate to the nearest cent, or the nearest millicent?  Or convert kilometers to miles and use the old (obsolete) units to determine cost.  If you don't think this is a difficult question you have never played with politicians and/or lawyers.  And if you don't think that is an economic issue you have never paid for a lawyer or looked into the real cost of politicians.

The benefits of metric are often subtle or even non-existent.  The Mars Orbiter failure is repeatedly and widely touted as an example of why everyone should use metric.  But it is a single failure in a Mars project.  The Mars area is littered with failures that occurred in programs that used solely metric units (or perhaps all the failures are due to use of traditional units and no one else has owned up to it.)

The only remotely engineering related field I am aware of is audiophoolery, where intuition and BS rules.  Perhaps that is where you have received your training?