Author Topic: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back  (Read 23756 times)

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Offline NiHaoMikeTopic starter

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Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« on: April 23, 2022, 04:45:55 pm »

(Note that it's not just about Naomi, she just happens to be a popular creator affected by unethical stuff on Youtube's part.)

Here's a list of what to do:
* If you're not already using one, install an adblocker. If you want to, whitelist Youtube to support creators, blocking Google ads everywhere else still makes an impact. (Hiding the ads and "autoclicking" them with AdNauseam instead of blocking them might work better in that it would cost Google the ad views/clicks, but that would also increase their ad view/click count.)
* Don't use Google search, use DuckDuckGo.
* Don't use Chrome, use Firefox or Chromium.
* Don't get Youtube Premium (cancel it if you have it), use an adblocker and give directly to the creators.
* Use Make Internet Noise or similar to waste Google's resources as a protest, use in conjunction with an adblocker. It would also make their data collection less useful although it works best if you minimize the data you're giving them in the first place.
* Use/support more ethical alternatives to Youtube.
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2022, 05:25:55 pm »
Here's a list of what to do:
* If you're not already using one, install an adblocker. If you want to, whitelist Youtube to support creators, blocking Google ads everywhere else still makes an impact. (Hiding the ads and "autoclicking" them with AdNauseam instead of blocking them might work better in that it would cost Google the ad views/clicks, but that would also increase their ad view/click count.)
* Don't use Google search, use DuckDuckGo.
* Don't use Chrome, use Firefox or Chromium.
* Don't get Youtube Premium (cancel it if you have it), use an adblocker and give directly to the creators.
* Use Make Internet Noise or similar to waste Google's resources as a protest, use in conjunction with an adblocker. It would also make their data collection less useful although it works best if you minimize the data you're giving them in the first place.
* Use/support more ethical alternatives to Youtube.

I personally already do all of the above, except for using "Make Internet Noise", which I didn't know about.
 
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Online DiTBho

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2022, 05:50:10 pm »
oh, miss busty starlet complains  :o
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Online DiTBho

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2022, 05:52:02 pm »
Use/support more ethical alternatives to Youtube.

Which one?
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2022, 06:40:50 pm »
Big tech censorship is not new - just ask conservatives and liberals and their channels that discuss anything against the most accepted narrative of the big tech, CV policies, Ukraine war, etc. That is why a lot of people are going to Rumble, Odysee, Locals, Telegraph and other alternatives. These are still small, but hopefully people wake up and move away. 
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Online magic

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2022, 06:59:52 pm »
TheyTube has always had rules against porn.
(TL;DW - did I guess wrong what this thread is about?)

Also related, look up Nasim Aghdam. At least she quit with style :D
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2022, 07:14:09 pm »
I think some time ago they implemented a filter that basically put all content in disadvantage that showed "tits for clickbait" on the thumbnail. Rightly so, it was a way to boost the click of videos that were fail compilations and other junk content like these. I wonder if she was to change the thumbnails, if they would show up in the search results.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2022, 10:28:39 pm »
Use/support more ethical alternatives to Youtube.
Which one?

Odysee is by far the standout. They have just introduced a Patreon-like creator support system where 100% goes to the creator, and 90% of superchats go to the creators.
There is also Utreon which works very well and also has Patreon-like direct subscriptions to creators.

And in that entire video she didn't once mention alternatives?  :-//
« Last Edit: April 23, 2022, 10:41:27 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Online HobGoblyn

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2022, 10:47:11 pm »
I watch most of my YouTube on the living room TV.

Usually using the Sky Q YouTube app, but I could use the TVs own YouTube app.

Since paying for YouTube premium, it’s been a whole new world of pleasurable viewing, ad free, even if it was twice the price, the amount of YouTube I watch, I would probably still pay.

Sure on my tablet or PC I could use some form of Adblock and not have premium, but I can’t do that when I watch YouTube on the TV, whether I’m using Skys app or the TV app.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2022, 10:53:49 pm »
Use/support more ethical alternatives to Youtube.

Which one?

LBRY/Odysee is really the only viable alternative. Thankfully, some of my favourite content creators have or are slowly making the transition over. I understand that it's difficult when monetisation from Youtube is their primary source of income, but to me that suggests poor planning (if the channel is being run as a business). Revenue from Youtube should only ever be considered a hobby or extra cash. It's too volatile to be anything else long-term. They could turn around and change the rules tomorrow which directly impacts your wallet.

I still use Youtube, but mostly in the following ways:

I watch videos on my laptop which has both the Ghostery and ABP plugins installed -- This means no pre-roll ads, ad banners or video ads during videos.

I download the videos and watch them as normal video files "offline".
 
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Online DiTBho

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2022, 10:57:47 pm »
Hence, alternative[]={ LBRY, Rumble, Odysee, Locals, Telegraph }.
I will study them, I have never used them, thanks for the list  :D
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Offline John B

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2022, 11:58:52 pm »
I like odysee, but I find the bandwidth to be limited, so I have to download each video to watch them smoothly. Conveniently odysee has a function for that unlike youtube which views downloading videos as against their ad business model.

Rumble has very fast servers and is smoother than odysee for browsing/streaming vids, making it a good option for watching podcasts and long form vids.
 

Offline NiHaoMikeTopic starter

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2022, 12:24:29 am »
I like odysee, but I find the bandwidth to be limited, so I have to download each video to watch them smoothly. Conveniently odysee has a function for that unlike youtube which views downloading videos as against their ad business model.
That can really be improved if there's a system to allow anyone to set up a "cache node" and get rewarded for it. The "I have more bandwidth than I actually use" problem has to be very common, "it would be nice if I could use it to help the creators I like."
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Offline Bud

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2022, 12:59:37 am »
Sure on my tablet or PC I could use some form of Adblock and not have premium, but I can’t do that when I watch YouTube on the TV, whether I’m using Skys app or the TV app.

If your TV can install APK packages, you could get Smart Tube for Android TV. This is a godsend TV app for watching youtube not only ad-free but also can skip intros and do other stuff.
My TV is fairly old so what I did i got an Amazon Fire stick and installed Smart Tube on it. The other benefit of the Fire stick  it is lightning fast compare to the native TV app. I watch Youtube from the comfort of my reclining chair on a big screen ad-free.  :-+
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Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2022, 02:18:58 am »
Here's a list of what to do:

* Don't get Youtube Premium (cancel it if you have it), use an adblocker and give directly to the creators.
* Use Make Internet Noise or similar to waste Google's resources as a protest, use in conjunction with an adblocker. It would also make their data collection less useful although it works best if you minimize the data you're giving them in the first place.

Download Youtube content with Firefox too, (I know some extensions) where you don't see the ads and that'll suffocate them a bit.


Looks like they won't be going anytime soon.
Sometimes they too useful but hopefully other search engines will catch up.
Not only are they afloat in everything and everywhere they seem too powerful.

Maybe one day Thunderf00t will come along and bust it if that happens to be over inflated.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2022, 02:38:41 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline NiHaoMikeTopic starter

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2022, 02:42:56 am »
Sometimes they too useful but hopefully other search engines will catch up.
DuckDuckGo is a good alternative.
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Offline ebclr

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2022, 02:44:18 am »
Move to rumble.com
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2022, 03:14:42 am »
Hence, alternative[]={ LBRY, Rumble, Odysee, Locals, Telegraph }.
I will study them, I have never used them, thanks for the list  :D
Sorry, I should have said "Telegram" (an alternative to Twitter).

Well, each to its own set of expectations... sure the search results presented are not showing her videos, which hints of shadow banning if it wasn't for the fact these are very dependent on the content previously browsed/watched by the logged account (it is unclear from the video). Also, having several videos with more than 1 million views and almost all of her very recent videos reaching more than 100k views, I wouldn't think the platform is exactly boycotting her. Such numbers would be the envy of many of the tech content creators.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2022, 03:59:01 am »
Since paying for YouTube premium, it’s been a whole new world of pleasurable viewing, ad free, even if it was twice the price, the amount of YouTube I watch, I would probably still pay.

Me too. I'm happy to pay for what I use, and at least half goes to the creators of the videos I watch.
FYI, about 20% of my Youtube income comes from Premium subscribers.
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2022, 03:59:43 am »
I like odysee, but I find the bandwidth to be limited, so I have to download each video to watch them smoothly.

Content creators refuse to acknowledge this.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2022, 04:02:51 am »
LBRY/Odysee is really the only viable alternative. Thankfully, some of my favourite content creators have or are slowly making the transition over. I understand that it's difficult when monetisation from Youtube is their primary source of income, but to me that suggests poor planning (if the channel is being run as a business).

It's not poor planning, it's literally less than 5 minutes work and all your content is synced. You never have to look at or touch it again. Same with Utreon, Bitchute, and Rumble. Once creators are aware of this it's a decision most likely based on an ideological viewpoint of some kind.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2022, 04:03:27 am »
I like odysee, but I find the bandwidth to be limited, so I have to download each video to watch them smoothly.
Content creators refuse to acknowledge this.

I constantly mention it.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2022, 04:10:07 am »
Hence, alternative[]={ LBRY, Rumble, Odysee, Locals, Telegraph }.
I will study them, I have never used them, thanks for the list  :D

Locals is a Patreon alternative, not a Youtube-like video platform.
The best alternative Youtube platforms are IMO, ranked:
1) Odysee
2) Utreon
3) Rumble
4) Bitchute a distant last

Both Odysee and Utreon have Patreon like features as well as superchats for live shows.

There are others like Vimeo and Daily Motion but the traction is practically zero.

If you don't like the random buffering issues with Odysee I recommend Utreon, it's really very nice, but hardly anyone knows about it apart from many gun channels that have moved over there. They have only started some publicity in the last month or so after several years with practically zero publicity or effort.

Rumble is probably bigger then Odysee, but AFAIk I'm the only electronics creator on there. And I don't use it personally.
Bitchute is just horrible, the resolution sucks, they refuse to fix there image etc. I don't recommend it.

With the exception of Rumble, I have talked to the owners and developers of these platform and have helped them shape it. Bitchute is the only one that listened but dismissed my advice outright.

If creators had joined LBRY and then Odysee when I told them too that would have build large audiences on there by now like I have and have gained a huge amount of LBC that was offered early on per view. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2022, 04:19:46 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2022, 05:08:29 am »
So, you're suggesting we boycott Google (products) then?

I am slowly migrating across different platforms, trying to use Google less and less, so I do one search in DuckDuckGo, I set that as my default home page, then when I am not satisfied or want to see more I select the text, left click and select "search with google" which has a few exclusions one being from Pinterest and some sites that mas spam the search engine with their links to clickbait and troll the user into things so that's one benefit.

There is another search engine I have seen called, Ecosia and I think it is based on Bing.
https://www.ecosia.org

I don't see any option to hide the search suggestions so hid them with Adblock:

I don't know which does what from my blocklist but it's in there somewhere if you don't like being bombarded with search suggestions:
Quote
ecosia.org##.typeahead-link
ecosia.org##.banner
ecosia.org##.notifications-banner
ecosia.org##.js-notifications-banner.notifications-banner-placeholder
ecosia.org##.serp-cta-wrapper.margin-top-base.serp-cta-wrapper--with-copy
ecosia.org##.cta__button.button.button--variant-solid-primary.button--size-m.button--text-size-m.visible
ecosia.org##.banner
ecosia.org##.circular
ecosia.org##.earth-icon
ecosia.org##.icon-button.icon-button--elevation-0.icon-button--size-m.icon-button--variant-bare.button.button__clear
ecosia.org##.icon-button.icon-button--elevation-0.icon-button--size-m.icon-button--variant-bare.button.button__clear.button__clear--hidden
ecosia.org##.loading-animation.no-js-hide
ecosia.org##.suggestion-link
ecosia.org##.suggestions.suggestion-list.suggestion-list--variant-default
eu.usatoday.com##.logo

Actually I think I have a few from DuckDuckGo one of them if the suggestions as I can't be bothered switching them off when the cookies sometimes get cleared:
Quote
duckduckgo.com##.modal__overlay.js-modal-close
duckduckgo.com##.acp-wrap.js-acp-wrap
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2022, 07:06:43 am »
Sometimes they too useful but hopefully other search engines will catch up.
DuckDuckGo is a good alternative.

No it's a pile of crap that does not return the same quality of results, theres another one that claims to plant trees with the proceeds and uses bing, that can't find what is in front of it.
 
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2022, 07:44:54 am »
LBRY/Odysee is really the only viable alternative. Thankfully, some of my favourite content creators have or are slowly making the transition over. I understand that it's difficult when monetisation from Youtube is their primary source of income, but to me that suggests poor planning (if the channel is being run as a business).

It's not poor planning, it's literally less than 5 minutes work and all your content is synced. You never have to look at or touch it again. Same with Utreon, Bitchute, and Rumble. Once creators are aware of this it's a decision most likely based on an ideological viewpoint of some kind.

I meant from the point of view that if your business model relies on Youtube revenue to survive, then you're doing it wrong (with the exception of the top 0.01% of creators that actually make significant money over time, which is still going to be short-lived, because, that's life).
« Last Edit: April 24, 2022, 07:46:44 am by Halcyon »
 
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Online DiTBho

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2022, 11:14:35 am »
The problem is that the entire concept of the web is broken.
...
But to make the necessary AI automation work people have to realize that content shouldn't be created in form encoded for human interaction, it should all be created for machine processing and semantic analysis and semantic search.

Yup, precisely. Internet v3.0 will get it.
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Online DiTBho

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2022, 11:16:11 am »
Two years ago I planned to open my YouTube channel. Nothing too serious, I would just like to share some of the crazy Linux projects, probably a niche among niches, so "sponsors" will probably never be a problem because the channel will never get more than a hundred views at best.

For many reasons I haven't started the channel yet, but I'm still thinking about it.

What would you suggest at this point? Youtube as a first start, something else and Youtube as a second option? 

Mumble :-//
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2022, 12:26:12 pm »
Two years ago I planned to open my YouTube channel. Nothing too serious, I would just like to share some of the crazy Linux projects, probably a niche among niches, so "sponsors" will probably never be a problem because the channel will never get more than a hundred views at best.

For many reasons I haven't started the channel yet, but I'm still thinking about it.

What would you suggest at this point? Youtube as a first start, something else and Youtube as a second option? 

Mumble :-//

For a new channel, consider gearing the material for Odysee and mirroring a percentage of it to youtube until they inevitably find something to ping you about, then lower the percentage. As our friend Naomi has finally discovered, after plenty of warning, one by one the channels not pulling in the million views per vid are being yeeted. I hope we see your new channel soon.  :)

To reiterate/reinforce what Dave said,


Locals is a Patreon alternative, not a Youtube-like video platform.
The best alternative Youtube platforms are IMO, ranked:
1) Odysee
2) Utreon
3) Rumble
4) Bitchute a distant last

Both Odysee and Utreon have Patreon like features as well as superchats for live shows.

There are others like Vimeo and Daily Motion but the traction is practically zero.

iratus parum formica
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2022, 12:53:26 pm »
Two years ago I planned to open my YouTube channel. Nothing too serious, I would just like to share some of the crazy Linux projects, probably a niche among niches, so "sponsors" will probably never be a problem because the channel will never get more than a hundred views at best.
For many reasons I haven't started the channel yet, but I'm still thinking about it.
What would you suggest at this point? Youtube as a first start, something else and Youtube as a second option? 

Youtube without a doubt. It's where all the discoverability still is.
All the other platforms "come for free" so to speak if you are a Youtuber. Upload to Youtube and your content automatically gets mirrored on the other sites if you set that.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2022, 12:56:42 pm »
As our friend Naomi has finally discovered, after plenty of warning, one by one the channels not pulling in the million views per vid are being yeeted.

There is zero evidence that happens.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2022, 01:27:09 pm »
As our friend Naomi has finally discovered, after plenty of warning, one by one the channels not pulling in the million views per vid are being yeeted.

There is zero evidence that happens.

?

Why does Odysee exist?

Nearly every video I see now, OK, you're the exception, the creators complain about the algo, the shadow banning, the copyright matching, the word mincing, the nutters in the comments section. I watch a few hours of internet vids a week and more and more the channels big and small are regularly grumbling and e-begging more than ever.

They came for Jack Vale the other day because after ten years they are sick of him farting on the internet. Why would they do that?

All I'm saying, my evidence is the creators I watch who have been affected earlier and for longer are much happier now over on the alts and just flicking a select portion of the content up on youtube for the masses and for the legacy viewers or for those who want to share to legacy viewers.

iratus parum formica
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2022, 02:46:47 pm »
Patreon are just as bad. They banned Sydney Watson because they disagree with her political views. What's so bad is it wasn't because of anything she said on Patreon, but elsewhere online. If Dave says something they dislike on this forum, they might ban him. It doesn't matter if you agree with Sydney's political views or not and this isn't the place to discuss them. The fact companies are monitoring people's online activity and banning them because they say something they don't like is dangerous.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2022, 06:16:22 pm »
All of those networks end up the same, for the same reasons.

Odysee is currently better, but wait till it grows and some big corporation buys it, and it'll do exactly the same shit. Meanwhile, enjoy.

Most of those companies have a political agenda, so it's not just about the money. This is concerning indeed. Probably inevitable though. The only thing that can help avoiding this is to "divide and replicate". Avoid concentration of powers, and you solve the problem.
 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2022, 06:53:26 pm »
I've just watched the video posted at the start of the thread. I don't follow her channel, but going by Google's super woke ads, I would have thought they'd love her. She's a Chinese lesbian with fake tits, which should help, rather than hinder her. Google claim to be all for the rights of ethnic minorities, women performing traditionally thought of as men's jobs and LGBTQ rights and she ticks plenty of boxes. She should tell YouTube, they're discriminating against because she's a gay Chinese woman and be sure to use the following words: racist, homophobic and misogynist. Those words trigger woketard managers.
 
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Offline NiHaoMikeTopic starter

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2022, 06:57:12 pm »
All of those networks end up the same, for the same reasons.

Odysee is currently better, but wait till it grows and some big corporation buys it, and it'll do exactly the same shit. Meanwhile, enjoy.

Most of those companies have a political agenda, so it's not just about the money. This is concerning indeed. Probably inevitable though. The only thing that can help avoiding this is to "divide and replicate". Avoid concentration of powers, and you solve the problem.
The ideal would be an open source P2P system that cannot be "bought".
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Offline madires

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2022, 07:10:27 pm »
I'm watching some channels on Odysee for a while now and from a user's perspective they have several issues. When the video resolution option is available I have to select 1080 to get an acceptable image quality (480 on YouTube works fine for me). Anything up to 720 looks like crap, expecially motions. Still images, e.g. a schematic, are mostly fine. Videos often stop randomly and I have to reload the page. Luckily the reloaded video starts where it stopped before. The algorithm for video recommendations seems to promote SJW/woke/scam/conspiracy themed videos on some special trigger words in video titles. I had this several times when watching electronics videos and I strongly dislike it.
 

Offline YurkshireLad

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2022, 08:00:09 pm »
Osysee's search engine is terrible. If I search for Owon, for example, it returns hits for Owen and God knows what else. They hate to admit when they don't have many matches and just show you a list of irrelevant junk.
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2022, 08:08:24 pm »
I like Odysee but my concern is, I read they allow anything on there such as hate speeches that could give governments like the UK the justification to ban it from their country (if out of their jurisdiction to force them to change) which might lead to it's downfall.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/14/odysee-video-platform-nazi-content-not-grounds-for-removal
Quote
jason_a_w Fri 14 May 2021 11.00 BST
Last modified on Fri 14 May 2021 12.53 BST

Video platform chief says Nazi posts on white superiority do not merit removal

A leaked email from an Odysee executive suggests the site favoured by the far right could do more to restrict extremists

A top executive at the video sharing platform Odysee wrote guidance to moderators in late April that a “Nazi that makes videos about the superiority of the white race” would not be grounds by itself for removal from the platform, according to a leaked email obtained by the Guardian. The platform, whose owner, LBRY Inc, is currently being sued by the Securities and Exchange Commission for trading in unregistered securities, has been increasingly popular with extremists who have been banned from other platforms, and who are attracted by Odysee’s cryptocurrency-based monetization program.

Explosives and weaponry found at US far-right protests, documents revealThe emails, sent in error to a user who had been complaining about neo-Nazi content on the platform, suggest that the platform is not doing as much as it can to restrict extremists. Initially, the user had emailed Odysee’s general contact address to warn that “Nazi propagandist Eric Striker has announced plans to use Odysee to stream his podcast”, referring to the alias used by New York-based neo-Nazi Joseph Jordan. The user then linked to Jordan’s channel on the site, as well as 10 other additional neo-Nazi, white nationalist or far-right extremist channels.

Jordan has been a key figure in the half-decade-long resurgence of white supremacist organizing, having collaborated with US-based organizers for the neo-fascist Golden Dawn party, participated in the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville in 2017, and lent his support to the formation of the white nationalist and antisemitic National Justice party. His most energetic work has been as what the Southern Poverty Law Center describes as “one of the most prolific content creators in the alt-right”: as a writer or podcaster. He has contributed prolifically to influential extremist outlets like the Daily Stormer, the Right Stuff podcast network and to his own website, National Justice. Asked about Jordan’s activities, an SPLC spokesman, Michael Edison Hayden, wrote in an email that, “Joseph Jordan will tell you to an inch away from your face that he’s a proud neo-Nazi. He’s also arguably the most prolific hate propagandist of the last five years, and his venom comes out very, very sharply in particular for Jewish people and the LGBTQ community.”

Hayden added: “That’s why tech companies typically suspend him – he puts other people in danger and pollutes your brand with such a palpably acrid taste.” Despite this history, and in direct reference to the user complaint, Julian Chandra, the vice-president for growth at LBRY, which owns both Odysee and created the blockchain-based video-sharing protocol that underpins it, wrote: “Eric Striker is a white supremacist, but that has nothing to do with him being on Odysee. What matters is if he breaks rules.”

Chandra added: “Have a look at the title of the video: if it appears to be inciting hatred toward an ethnic group or whatever; the title should be scrubbed. But that doesn’t mean the video should be removed unless it does break community guidelines.” Chandra continued: “Also just being a white nationalist or nazi isn’t grounds for removal.

Are you nazi that makes videos about the superiority of the white race? That is NOT grounds for removal. “If you’re on the other hand, dehumanizing a race or doing things against our guidelines, that is grounds for removal,” he concluded. On the idea that white supremacist beliefs can be articulated without dehumanizing other groups, Hayden, the SPLC spokesperson, said: “White supremacy is inherently dehumanizing.” The Guardian’s review of channels linked to by the complainant revealed scores of extremist videos, some of which have been viewed thousands of times.

Variously they promoted antisemitic conspiracy theories – including versions of the “Great Replacement” narrative, claiming Jews were orchestrating the demographic replacement of white people through mass immigration. They also glorified Hitler and other Nazis, showed meetings and rallies held by extremist parties like National Justice and Nordic Resistance, promoted disinformation about Covid-19 vaccines, and featured titles like The Pure Evil of the Jews, Second American Civil War, Treblinka Wasn’t a Death Camp, and They Want You Dead, White Man.

Odysee and LBRY employees did not immediately respond to requests for comment on the apparent moderation guidance Chandra offered. A month before that email exchange, the SEC filed a complaint against Odysee’s owner, LBRY Inc, arguing that it had raised funds through issues of the LBC cryptocurrency, and in doing so had traded an unregistered security. Creators on the site can also earn the cryptocurrency by means such as including tips from viewers. Recent videos on Jordan’s livestreaming channels had earned the approximate equivalent of $5 per stream.

Although Chandra, the LBRY vice-president, sent his guidance in error to the original complainant, he warned others against sharing the underlying reasons for moderation decisions. “Please note also, we don’t need to provide our judgements to the people that complain. It’s none of their business how we act in response,” Chandra wrote.



Then there's a safety bill act in the UK that focuses on hate content:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/online-safety-law-to-be-strengthened-to-stamp-out-illegal-content
Quote
Online Safety Bill strengthened with new list of criminal content for tech firms to remove as a priority

Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport, Home Office, The Rt Hon Nadine Dorries MP, and The Rt Hon Priti Patel MP
Published 4 February 2022

Digital Secretary Nadine Dorries today announced extra priority illegal offences to be written on the face of the bill include revenge porn, hate crime, fraud, the sale of illegal drugs or weapons, the promotion or facilitation of suicide, people smuggling and sexual exploitation. Terrorism and child sexual abuse are already included.

...

It will clamp down on pimps and human traffickers, extremist groups encouraging violence and racial hate against minorities


Well I hope the two (governments and hate campaigners) don't ruin it for everyone else enjoying the platform.
 

Online magic

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2022, 08:08:38 pm »
I've just watched the video posted at the start of the thread. I don't follow her channel, but going by Google's super woke ads, I would have thought they'd love her. She's a Chinese lesbian with fake tits, which should help, rather than hinder her. Google claim to be all for the rights of ethnic minorities, women performing traditionally thought of as men's jobs and LGBTQ rights and she ticks plenty of boxes. She should tell YouTube, they're discriminating against because she's a gay Chinese woman and be sure to use the following words: racist, homophobic and misogynist. Those words trigger woketard managers.
She and her viewers objectify whamen and promote harmful stereotypes which lead to discrespecting whamen.
Also, think of all the young girls who will believe they also need to get implants just to be accepted in the industry.

Besides, all social justice is manufactured by Reptilians. They pick a cause which aligns with their goals and then the media promote the cause and then you end up believing the cause. Starting with a belief (even if one promoted last year) and expecting the media to promote it now is 100% backwards, you might as well go and start giving orders to the Lizards.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2022, 08:40:34 pm »
Everything Google does is fake and a calculated strategy to deceive the public.

This is the era of fake everything. Including Reptilians.

I've just watched the video posted at the start of the thread. I don't follow her channel, but going by Google's super woke ads, I would have thought they'd love her. She's a Chinese lesbian with fake tits, which should help, rather than hinder her. Google claim to be all for the rights of ethnic minorities, women performing traditionally thought of as men's jobs and LGBTQ rights and she ticks plenty of boxes. She should tell YouTube, they're discriminating against because she's a gay Chinese woman and be sure to use the following words: racist, homophobic and misogynist. Those words trigger woketard managers.
She and her viewers objectify whamen and promote harmful stereotypes which lead to discrespecting whamen.
Also, think of all the young girls who will believe they also need to get implants just to be accepted in the industry.

Besides, all social justice is manufactured by Reptilians. They pick a cause which aligns with their goals and then the media promote the cause and then you end up believing the cause. Starting with a belief (even if one promoted last year) and expecting the media to promote it now is 100% backwards, you might as well go and start giving orders to the Lizards.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2022, 08:54:08 pm »
Patreon are just as bad. They banned Sydney Watson because they disagree with her political views. What's so bad is it wasn't because of anything she said on Patreon, but elsewhere online. If Dave says something they dislike on this forum, they might ban him. It doesn't matter if you agree with Sydney's political views or not and this isn't the place to discuss them. The fact companies are monitoring people's online activity and banning them because they say something they don't like is dangerous.

I've never heard of her and have no idea what her views are, but watching that video I would say she's intelligent, articulate and overall sounds very reasonable. Whether we call it "cancel culture", a "culture war" or something else, this banning people over random things they do or say somewhere is scary, it is quite literally authoritarian oppression no different than what the most reviled tyrants throughout history have done. Every one of those tyrants and their followers believed in their cause, believed they  were on the right side of history and believed what they were doing to be noble and just. The irony is that type of personality will steadfastly refuse to see the similarity between what they're doing and what other authoritarian figures of the past have done. The only good thing about it is that these movements have a tendency to eat their own as they get divided by various purity tests and eventually collapse.
 
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Online tszaboo

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2022, 09:00:36 pm »
Patreon are just as bad. They banned Sydney Watson because they disagree with her political views. What's so bad is it wasn't because of anything she said on Patreon, but elsewhere online. If Dave says something they dislike on this forum, they might ban him. It doesn't matter if you agree with Sydney's political views or not and this isn't the place to discuss them. The fact companies are monitoring people's online activity and banning them because they say something they don't like is dangerous.

I've never heard of her and have no idea what her views are, but watching that video I would say she's intelligent, articulate and overall sounds very reasonable. Whether we call it "cancel culture", a "culture war" or something else, this banning people over random things they do or say somewhere is scary, it is quite literally authoritarian oppression no different than what the most reviled tyrants throughout history have done. Every one of those tyrants and their followers believed in their cause, believed they  were on the right side of history and believed what they were doing to be noble and just. The irony is that type of personality will steadfastly refuse to see the similarity between what they're doing and what other authoritarian figures of the past have done. The only good thing about it is that these movements have a tendency to eat their own as they get divided by various purity tests and eventually collapse.
The most scary thing about cancel culture is that you get one chance. One bad word and they non-person you, you will lose your income and will be an outcast.
Society decided some time ago, that we will not do capital punishment, and even after being convicted for crimes (after prison), you can redeem yourself and re integrate.
Not anymore, because whatever you did stays online forever, and you will be a pariah. One word on a bad day.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2022, 09:08:23 pm »
The most scary thing about cancel culture is that you get one chance. One bad word and they non-person you, you will lose your income and will be an outcast.
Society decided some time ago, that we will not do capital punishment, and even after being convicted for crimes (after prison), you can redeem yourself and re integrate.
Not anymore, because whatever you did stays online forever, and you will be a pariah. One word on a bad day.

Yes and the very same people fall all over themselves to demonize the justice system, to fight against excessive prison sentences, to fight against capital punishment, to give every criminal chance after chance after chance. Yet ironically they are happy to completely destroy a person's life over a single comment made somewhere, even if it was 20+ years ago, and there is no path to redemption. An apology is never enough, in fact it is the opposite, it is an admission of guilt. Never, ever apologize, they will spot the weak moment and pounce like a gazelle on a sick and straggling prey.
 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2022, 09:25:55 pm »
I like Odysee but my concern is, I read they allow anything on there such as hate speeches that could give governments like the UK the justification to ban it from their country (if out of their jurisdiction to force them to change) which might lead to it's downfall.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/14/odysee-video-platform-nazi-content-not-grounds-for-removal
Quote
jason_a_w Fri 14 May 2021 11.00 BST
Last modified on Fri 14 May 2021 12.53 BST

Video platform chief says Nazi posts on white superiority do not merit removal

A leaked email from an Odysee executive suggests the site favoured by the far right could do more to restrict extremists

A top executive at the video sharing platform Odysee wrote guidance to moderators in late April that a “Nazi that makes videos about the superiority of the white race” would not be grounds by itself for removal from the platform, according to a leaked email obtained by the Guardian. The platform, whose owner, LBRY Inc, is currently being sued by the Securities and Exchange Commission for trading in unregistered securities, has been increasingly popular with extremists who have been banned from other platforms, and who are attracted by Odysee’s cryptocurrency-based monetization program.

Explosives and weaponry found at US far-right protests, documents revealThe emails, sent in error to a user who had been complaining about neo-Nazi content on the platform, suggest that the platform is not doing as much as it can to restrict extremists. Initially, the user had emailed Odysee’s general contact address to warn that “Nazi propagandist Eric Striker has announced plans to use Odysee to stream his podcast”, referring to the alias used by New York-based neo-Nazi Joseph Jordan. The user then linked to Jordan’s channel on the site, as well as 10 other additional neo-Nazi, white nationalist or far-right extremist channels.

Jordan has been a key figure in the half-decade-long resurgence of white supremacist organizing, having collaborated with US-based organizers for the neo-fascist Golden Dawn party, participated in the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville in 2017, and lent his support to the formation of the white nationalist and antisemitic National Justice party. His most energetic work has been as what the Southern Poverty Law Center describes as “one of the most prolific content creators in the alt-right”: as a writer or podcaster. He has contributed prolifically to influential extremist outlets like the Daily Stormer, the Right Stuff podcast network and to his own website, National Justice. Asked about Jordan’s activities, an SPLC spokesman, Michael Edison Hayden, wrote in an email that, “Joseph Jordan will tell you to an inch away from your face that he’s a proud neo-Nazi. He’s also arguably the most prolific hate propagandist of the last five years, and his venom comes out very, very sharply in particular for Jewish people and the LGBTQ community.”

Hayden added: “That’s why tech companies typically suspend him – he puts other people in danger and pollutes your brand with such a palpably acrid taste.” Despite this history, and in direct reference to the user complaint, Julian Chandra, the vice-president for growth at LBRY, which owns both Odysee and created the blockchain-based video-sharing protocol that underpins it, wrote: “Eric Striker is a white supremacist, but that has nothing to do with him being on Odysee. What matters is if he breaks rules.”

Chandra added: “Have a look at the title of the video: if it appears to be inciting hatred toward an ethnic group or whatever; the title should be scrubbed. But that doesn’t mean the video should be removed unless it does break community guidelines.” Chandra continued: “Also just being a white nationalist or nazi isn’t grounds for removal.

Are you nazi that makes videos about the superiority of the white race? That is NOT grounds for removal. “If you’re on the other hand, dehumanizing a race or doing things against our guidelines, that is grounds for removal,” he concluded. On the idea that white supremacist beliefs can be articulated without dehumanizing other groups, Hayden, the SPLC spokesperson, said: “White supremacy is inherently dehumanizing.” The Guardian’s review of channels linked to by the complainant revealed scores of extremist videos, some of which have been viewed thousands of times.

Variously they promoted antisemitic conspiracy theories – including versions of the “Great Replacement” narrative, claiming Jews were orchestrating the demographic replacement of white people through mass immigration. They also glorified Hitler and other Nazis, showed meetings and rallies held by extremist parties like National Justice and Nordic Resistance, promoted disinformation about Covid-19 vaccines, and featured titles like The Pure Evil of the Jews, Second American Civil War, Treblinka Wasn’t a Death Camp, and They Want You Dead, White Man.

Odysee and LBRY employees did not immediately respond to requests for comment on the apparent moderation guidance Chandra offered. A month before that email exchange, the SEC filed a complaint against Odysee’s owner, LBRY Inc, arguing that it had raised funds through issues of the LBC cryptocurrency, and in doing so had traded an unregistered security. Creators on the site can also earn the cryptocurrency by means such as including tips from viewers. Recent videos on Jordan’s livestreaming channels had earned the approximate equivalent of $5 per stream.

Although Chandra, the LBRY vice-president, sent his guidance in error to the original complainant, he warned others against sharing the underlying reasons for moderation decisions. “Please note also, we don’t need to provide our judgements to the people that complain. It’s none of their business how we act in response,” Chandra wrote.



Then there's a safety bill act in the UK that focuses on hate content:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/online-safety-law-to-be-strengthened-to-stamp-out-illegal-content
Quote
Online Safety Bill strengthened with new list of criminal content for tech firms to remove as a priority

Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport, Home Office, The Rt Hon Nadine Dorries MP, and The Rt Hon Priti Patel MP
Published 4 February 2022

Digital Secretary Nadine Dorries today announced extra priority illegal offences to be written on the face of the bill include revenge porn, hate crime, fraud, the sale of illegal drugs or weapons, the promotion or facilitation of suicide, people smuggling and sexual exploitation. Terrorism and child sexual abuse are already included.

...

It will clamp down on pimps and human traffickers, extremist groups encouraging violence and racial hate against minorities


Well I hope the two (governments and hate campaigners) don't ruin it for everyone else enjoying the platform.
That's the Guardian talking complete bollocks as usual. The far-right don't pose a significant threat in the UK. There have only been two deaths in the last 70 years due to far-right extremism: Jo Cox and Makram Ali (Finsbury Park mosque attack), compared to many more due Islamic extremism and the IRA. Radical left-wing groups such as BLM and extreme trans activists pose a similar threat to the far-right, yet no one whines about them. There's loads of hate on Twitter about killing terfs (trans exclusionary feminists) and whites which is tolerated, yet people get kicked off all the time just for saying things like trans women are men.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2022, 10:28:53 pm »
(I'm sensing that this thread may unfortunately end up getting locked...)
But yeah, this is all the "woke" agenda that is currently all the rage in most of the big media/social network platforms. It's exactly the same all over the world (at least, the western world) in practically all of those companies, almost to the letter.
 

Offline NiHaoMikeTopic starter

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2022, 11:12:58 pm »
Trying to get back to the original problem, any idea why doesn't Odysee/LBRY have a way to build a "cache node" and get rewarded for providing bandwidth?
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2022, 11:42:46 pm »
They probably don't have as much money to spend on this yet. Sure, it might be a "chicken and egg" situation, but they are at least ten years behind the market leader and it is already quite impressive what was achieved already.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline NiHaoMikeTopic starter

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2022, 11:59:54 pm »
What about a way to build a "cache node" and prioritize those who have donated to the creator of the content? That would add value to donating money since the donor gets faster downloads. And those who aren't interested in donating money can donate bandwidth instead, still benefiting the creators they want to support.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline station240

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2022, 02:20:52 am »
Patreon are just as bad. They banned Sydney Watson because they disagree with her political views. What's so bad is it wasn't because of anything she said on Patreon, but elsewhere online. If Dave says something they dislike on this forum, they might ban him.

Pateron's problem is who works for/runs their "Global Trust & Safety".
If you look up some of their current/recent staff it make sense.
1. Sean Bonawitz - Senior Director, Head of Trust & Safety - Formerly had same job(s) at TikTok, Youtube, Google.
2. Jacqueline Hart - Former Senior  Director, Global Trust & Safety - global online payments fraud, trust and safety, compliance and content moderation areas within risk management.  Speaker at such international events as Merchant Risk Council, PaymentsEd, RSA, CNP Expo, and card brand summits.

This "Global Trust & Safety" is another BS term, it's all about credit card financial matters, nothing about ethics or having consistent rules.
The money laundering things I get, but they (the credit card companies) need to drop the "customer is always right" nonsense.
Sometimes the customer is a con artist, or a troll, and send money to someone just so they can trigger a chargeback (result -$40 donation).
Or donate to a Patreon creator, download everything, then call the bank and complain just so you get it for free.

This Woke nonsense is a symptom not a cause, the real issue is listening to cranks who use their personal credit cards to drain other people's bank accounts.
After a while the bank gets annoyed about how much this is costing them, and wrongly hassle Youtube/Patreon/Google, instead of telling a handful of their customers to take a long walk off a short pier.
 

Offline NiHaoMikeTopic starter

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2022, 03:57:23 am »
This "Global Trust & Safety" is another BS term, it's all about credit card financial matters, nothing about ethics or having consistent rules.
The money laundering things I get, but they (the credit card companies) need to drop the "customer is always right" nonsense.
Sometimes the customer is a con artist, or a troll, and send money to someone just so they can trigger a chargeback (result -$40 donation).
Or donate to a Patreon creator, download everything, then call the bank and complain just so you get it for free.

This Woke nonsense is a symptom not a cause, the real issue is listening to cranks who use their personal credit cards to drain other people's bank accounts.
After a while the bank gets annoyed about how much this is costing them, and wrongly hassle Youtube/Patreon/Google, instead of telling a handful of their customers to take a long walk off a short pier.
That problem is solved by cryptocurrencies, where transactions are irreversible.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2022, 04:45:01 am »
That problem is solved by cryptocurrencies, where transactions are irreversible.
How does it solve the problem? You contact the bank or service provider and seek a refund. Another irreversible transaction gets you the refund. What's different?
 

Offline vad

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2022, 04:46:03 am »
Here's a list of what to do:
* If you're not already using one, install an adblocker. If you want to, whitelist Youtube to support creators, blocking Google ads everywhere else still makes an impact. (Hiding the ads and "autoclicking" them with AdNauseam instead of blocking them might work better in that it would cost Google the ad views/clicks, but that would also increase their ad view/click count.)
* Don't use Google search, use DuckDuckGo.
* Don't use Chrome, use Firefox or Chromium.
* Don't get Youtube Premium (cancel it if you have it), use an adblocker and give directly to the creators.
* Use Make Internet Noise or similar to waste Google's resources as a protest, use in conjunction with an adblocker. It would also make their data collection less useful although it works best if you minimize the data you're giving them in the first place.
* Use/support more ethical alternatives to Youtube.

1) Thanks, I already have AdBlock, but not for YouTube. AdBlock stopped blocking YouTube ads some time ago.

2) Why should I use some shi..y search engine? Google works well for me. Your mileage may vary though.

3) I do have YouTube Premium and it is great

4) Protest what? I do understand that this half dresses lady is pi..sed off of her falling revenues despite 1.5M subscribers on YouTube. Maybe she can have better luck at other platforms. But why should I protest?

5) Content providers who I am interested in are all on YouTube. YouTube Premium is convenient way to watch or listen to that content. Alphabet is definitely more ethical than some shady alternatives like Telegram.
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2022, 05:08:28 am »
I like Odysee but my concern is, I read they allow anything on there such as hate speeches that could give governments like the UK the justification to ban it from their country (if out of their jurisdiction to force them to change) which might lead to it's downfall.

What fringe nutters need to be mindful of is they are just fringe nutters. When or if they become mainstream the platforms will be happy for their business. Most people, I think, and me included don't really want to live in a society where others are marginalised or subjected to hateful treatment. Gay people are way more tolerated now than say Alan Turing was. Does anyone care that Big Clive is gay? One of my sisters kids is transgender and I don't want them to live in a world where they are excluded or worse.  I have a particularly low regard for people who make others lives miserable for profit. And getting thrown off Patreon or Odysee won't stop the comments but it throttles back the profits. And that's a good thing. It will at least reduce the comment to those who genuinely believe them and weed out those who just say them to profit from them.

The platforms know full well it is bad for business to become part of the fringe echo chamber. Same goes for site that feature porn. That is more likely to lead to their downfall.

The people who created LBRY/Odysee did it to ultimately profit from it. Don't get in their way or no access for you. Patreon same. Twitter same. And Trumpet was created for the same reason but only with smaller ambitions. When their ambitions grow they'll shed the nitwits and nutcases just the same.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2022, 08:59:20 am »
I like Odysee but my concern is, I read they allow anything on there such as hate speeches that could give governments like the UK the justification to ban it from their country (if out of their jurisdiction to force them to change) which might lead to it's downfall.

If that happens then you have more to worry about than not being able access Odysee.

They have TOS
https://odysee.com/$/tos

Part of it:

Quote
6. General Conduct Restrictions
You are solely responsible for your conduct while using the Services. You will comply with all applicable laws and third-party agreements to which you are bound. Further, you will not do any of the following in connection with the Services or any other users:

a) Use the Services in any manner that could interfere with, disrupt, negatively affect or inhibit other users from fully enjoying the Services or that could damage, disable, overburden or impair the functioning of the Services in any manner;

b) Impersonate or distribute Content on behalf or any person or entity or otherwise misrepresent your affiliation with a person or entity;

c) Cheat or utilize unauthorized exploits in connection with the Services;

d) Stalk, intimidate, threaten, or otherwise harass or cause discomfort to other users;

e) Send, distribute or post spam, unsolicited or bulk commercial electronic communications, chain letters, or pyramid schemes;

f) Harvest or otherwise collect information about users, including email addresses, without their consent;

g) Use the Services for any illegal or unauthorized purpose or engage in, encourage, or promote any illegal activity, or any activity that violates these Terms;

h) Use the Services to distribute Content that you do not have the lawful right to distribute or reproduce; or

i) Circumvent or attempt to circumvent any filtering, security measures or other features we may from time to time adopt to protect the Company, the Services, its users or third parties.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2022, 09:05:10 am »
Patreon are just as bad. They banned Sydney Watson because they disagree with her political views. What's so bad is it wasn't because of anything she said on Patreon, but elsewhere online. If Dave says something they dislike on this forum, they might ban him. It doesn't matter if you agree with Sydney's political views or not and this isn't the place to discuss them. The fact companies are monitoring people's online activity and banning them because they say something they don't like is dangerous.

I've never heard of her and have no idea what her views are, but watching that video I would say she's intelligent, articulate and overall sounds very reasonable. Whether we call it "cancel culture", a "culture war" or something else, this banning people over random things they do or say somewhere is scary, it is quite literally authoritarian oppression no different than what the most reviled tyrants throughout history have done. Every one of those tyrants and their followers believed in their cause, believed they  were on the right side of history and believed what they were doing to be noble and just. The irony is that type of personality will steadfastly refuse to see the similarity between what they're doing and what other authoritarian figures of the past have done. The only good thing about it is that these movements have a tendency to eat their own as they get divided by various purity tests and eventually collapse.

Patreon lost a lot of large creators over this "Manifest observable behaviour" thing (google if you want to know more), and it's what spawned Locals and SubscribeStar.
Every creator on Patreon lost a significant number of Patrons over this issue of baning creators for what they say off-platform, as many customers left in protest. I lost maybe 10% of my Patrons over it.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 10:57:47 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2022, 09:14:31 am »
I don't understand why card merchants like Square or even some of the bigger ones like Visa or Mastercard don't create a platform similar to Patreon to enable donations to be easily deposited in content creator's accounts via their network. It seems to be a bit of a gap in the market.

It would be easy for them to develop a product for hobbyists capped at say, $100k per year in donations in exchange for a discounted fee on transactions.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2022, 10:16:52 am »
I like Odysee but my concern is, I read they allow anything on there such as hate speeches that could give governments like the UK the justification to ban it from their country (if out of their jurisdiction to force them to change) which might lead to it's downfall.

What fringe nutters need to be mindful of is they are just fringe nutters. When or if they become mainstream the platforms will be happy for their business. Most people, I think, and me included don't really want to live in a society where others are marginalised or subjected to hateful treatment. Gay people are way more tolerated now than say Alan Turing was. Does anyone care that Big Clive is gay? One of my sisters kids is transgender and I don't want them to live in a world where they are excluded or worse.  I have a particularly low regard for people who make others lives miserable for profit. And getting thrown off Patreon or Odysee won't stop the comments but it throttles back the profits. And that's a good thing. It will at least reduce the comment to those who genuinely believe them and weed out those who just say them to profit from them.

The platforms know full well it is bad for business to become part of the fringe echo chamber. Same goes for site that feature porn. That is more likely to lead to their downfall.

The people who created LBRY/Odysee did it to ultimately profit from it. Don't get in their way or no access for you. Patreon same. Twitter same. And Trumpet was created for the same reason but only with smaller ambitions. When their ambitions grow they'll shed the nitwits and nutcases just the same.
I didn't know Big Clive is gay and I don't care. I watch Fran's videos and couldn't give a toss about he being trans.

The problem is there is extremist LGBT content is allowed, if not even encouraged by social media. Age inappropriate content is being pushed onto children. I'm all for teaching children to be tolerant of minorities, but despise radical trans activists who glorify gender dysphoria. There have been too many cases of vulnerable children and adolescents who have been convinced they're trans by manipulative people and undergone life changing medical treatments as a result. Many trans activists aren't really transgender, but male transvestites, who want to use women's spaces. A women was raped in hospital recently, because a man who identified as female was allowed on a women's ward. What's worse is the police didn't believe her, because the hospital staff have been told to deny there was a man on the ward. I hope the policy is changed and the staff are prosecuted for wasting police time and perverting the course of justice: following orders is no defense!
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2022, 10:26:39 am »
I like Odysee but my concern is, I read they allow anything on there such as hate speeches that could give governments like the UK the justification to ban it from their country (if out of their jurisdiction to force them to change) which might lead to it's downfall.
These days unwanted truth (by some leftist minority) often is labeled a hate speech and shut down by people with extreme opinion which is shared by like <5% of population. Youtube and major social meadia these days became an agenda marketplaces which shovel some fringe minority agenda into your mouth, and shut down those who dare to say something against this.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 10:31:40 am by wraper »
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2022, 10:48:02 am »
What fringe nutters need to be mindful of is they are just fringe nutters. When or if they become mainstream the platforms will be happy for their business. Most people, I think, and me included don't really want to live in a society where others are marginalised or subjected to hateful treatment. Gay people are way more tolerated now than say Alan Turing was. Does anyone care that Big Clive is gay? One of my sisters kids is transgender and I don't want them to live in a world where they are excluded or worse.  I have a particularly low regard for people who make others lives miserable for profit. And getting thrown off Patreon or Odysee won't stop the comments but it throttles back the profits. And that's a good thing. It will at least reduce the comment to those who genuinely believe them and weed out those who just say them to profit from them.

The platforms know full well it is bad for business to become part of the fringe echo chamber. Same goes for site that feature porn. That is more likely to lead to their downfall.

The people who created LBRY/Odysee did it to ultimately profit from it. Don't get in their way or no access for you. Patreon same. Twitter same. And Trumpet was created for the same reason but only with smaller ambitions. When their ambitions grow they'll shed the nitwits and nutcases just the same.
Modern social media lets you think that fringe nutters are mainstream and people with traditional values are fringe. Saying something that was completely normal like 10-15 years ago is labeled as blasphemy. People who asking for more censorship don't understand what they are promoting, because tomorrow they will be called a fringe minority and shut down for not being progressive enough. Shutting down the opposition pushes the overtone window further and further until perverse becomes mainstream.
 

Online DiTBho

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2022, 11:00:31 am »
4) Protest what? I do understand that this half dresses lady is pi..sed off of her falling revenues despite 1.5M subscribers on YouTube. Maybe she can have better luck at other platforms. But why should I protest?

Indeed. Why should I protest specifically for that Youtuber?
Good for her she earned a lot of money until it worked.
And That's all.

The opposite of courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow
 

Online DiTBho

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2022, 11:02:16 am »
Patreon lost a lot of large creators over this "Manifest observable behaviour" thing (google if you want to know more), and it's what spawned Locals and SubscribeStar.
Every creator on Patreon lost a significant number of Patrons over this issue of baning creators for what they say off-platform, as many customers left in protest. I lost maybe 10% of my Patrons over it.

That's what I should protest against! And I will!
The opposite of courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow
 

Offline madires

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2022, 11:08:58 am »
Everything boils down to attention. Content related and social media platforms are businesses which want to make money. So they need to get as much attention of their customers as possible. Controversial and extreme content/opinions draw a lot of attention. This creates a classic win-win situation for the two groups. Don't pay attention! ;)
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 11:16:05 am by madires »
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2022, 12:18:41 pm »
For those who don't know what's going on here with Naomi, it's called algorithmic demotion. Youtube have publicly admitted they do this for independent news sources, famously promoting only  "authoritative sources".
And as much as they publically mouth support for LGBT stuff, there has been many complaints from trans content creators about being algorithmly demoted.
Several other categories as well. Same thing across all these types of channels hit, you can't find much of your own content even with exact title searches.
Some of it is ideologically woke driven, some politcially driven, some advertiser driven, but Naomi is just one in a vast number of channels it happens to.
 

Offline NiHaoMikeTopic starter

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2022, 12:26:36 pm »
How does it solve the problem? You contact the bank or service provider and seek a refund. Another irreversible transaction gets you the refund. What's different?
In most cryptocurrencies, the sending of coins can only be initiated by the one who has access to the source account, basically like cash.
For those who don't know what's going on here with Naomi, it's called algorithmic demotion. Youtube have publicly admitted they do this for independent news sources, famously promoting only  "authoritative sources".
And as much as they publically mouth support for LGBT stuff, there has been many complaints from trans content creators about being algorithmly demoted.
Several other categories as well. Same thing across all these types of channels hit, you can't find much of your own content even with exact title searches.
Some of it is ideologically woke driven, some politcially driven, some advertiser driven, but Naomi is just one in a vast number of channels it happens to.
Time to make some independent search that prioritizes those creators?
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2022, 01:12:49 pm »
For those who don't know what's going on here with Naomi, it's called algorithmic demotion. Youtube have publicly admitted they do this for independent news sources, famously promoting only  "authoritative sources".
And as much as they publically mouth support for LGBT stuff, there has been many complaints from trans content creators about being algorithmly demoted.
Several other categories as well. Same thing across all these types of channels hit, you can't find much of your own content even with exact title searches.
Some of it is ideologically woke driven, some politcially driven, some advertiser driven, but Naomi is just one in a vast number of channels it happens to.

From Schiller's Wilhelm Tell: The best cannot live in peace, if it does not please the bad neighbour.
 

Online Ranayna

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2022, 02:01:24 pm »
There is one youtuber I regularly follow that is openly trans. She transitioned a couple of years ago, but i followed that channel many years before that already.

Her videos are still regularly suggested to me.
But that may be due to the fact the she very regularly releases a video each and every monday, and did so for many, many years, even before she came out as trans. In generally her videos are very critical about anything related to capitalism, she regularly uses foul language, and also complains a lot about being shafted by the algorithm. But i still get her monday video each and every time one is released.

I follow another youtuber that was actually "canceled" for a couple of months, due to a scandal involving the suspicion of "underage relationships". That was resolved after a couple of months though, and that channel is slowly gaining traction again. There the algorithm seems to have forgotten, or never even noticed, that this happened. Though his subscriber count took a *massive* hit back in the day. I do not know if he already surpassed the losses yet though, since i don't really care about the subscriber count of channels anymore. Or rather the other way around: i am inherently distrusting of channels with high subscriber counts :D

So i have no idea how the algorithm works. I wonder if it is somewhat related to the location of the viewer. Considering the perceived "prudishness" of US Americans, that would actually not surprise me.
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2022, 02:03:23 pm »
Everything boils down to attention. Content related and social media platforms are businesses which want to make money. So they need to get as much attention of their customers as possible. Controversial and extreme content/opinions draw a lot of attention. This creates a classic win-win situation for the two groups. Don't pay attention! ;)
Attention, you really think? I have x subscribers, who explicitly told Youtube by pressing the button that they are interested in my content.
And I have videos that didn't have 1/4th the impressions than my subscriber count. Meaning that they haven't been shown the video, because the mighty Algorithm decided it is not Worthy of their time. At this point, asking to subscribe is completely pointless.
If you turn off monetization your channel dies because no ads.
If you don't upload in regular intervals, 2-3x a week, your channel dies because no impressions.
You upload a few bad videos in a row, have a bad streak, your channel dies, because no impressions.
If you say a bad word your channel is killed, banned etc...
If you post videos that are less than 8:00 long, you loose advertising money because no midroll ads. You can either pad the video with useless content (which makes people click off) or loose midroll, which means less impressions.
 

Offline YurkshireLad

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2022, 02:31:21 pm »
Everything boils down to attention. Content related and social media platforms are businesses which want to make money. So they need to get as much attention of their customers as possible. Controversial and extreme content/opinions draw a lot of attention. This creates a classic win-win situation for the two groups. Don't pay attention! ;)
Attention, you really think? I have x subscribers, who explicitly told Youtube by pressing the button that they are interested in my content.
And I have videos that didn't have 1/4th the impressions than my subscriber count. Meaning that they haven't been shown the video, because the mighty Algorithm decided it is not Worthy of their time. At this point, asking to subscribe is completely pointless.
If you turn off monetization your channel dies because no ads.
If you don't upload in regular intervals, 2-3x a week, your channel dies because no impressions.
You upload a few bad videos in a row, have a bad streak, your channel dies, because no impressions.
If you say a bad word your channel is killed, banned etc...
If you post videos that are less than 8:00 long, you loose advertising money because no midroll ads. You can either pad the video with useless content (which makes people click off) or loose midroll, which means less impressions.

Sadly this is the world we live in where AI rules the roost.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2022, 02:41:56 pm »
Attention, you really think? I have x subscribers, who explicitly told Youtube by pressing the button that they are interested in my content.
And I have videos that didn't have 1/4th the impressions than my subscriber count. Meaning that they haven't been shown the video, because the mighty Algorithm decided it is not Worthy of their time. At this point, asking to subscribe is completely pointless.

Electronics is a niche topic. Too uninteresting to be promoted. The algorithms promote stuff which has potential for much more views (= more ad revenue).
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #70 on: April 25, 2022, 04:27:45 pm »
Attention, you really think? I have x subscribers, who explicitly told Youtube by pressing the button that they are interested in my content.
And I have videos that didn't have 1/4th the impressions than my subscriber count. Meaning that they haven't been shown the video, because the mighty Algorithm decided it is not Worthy of their time. At this point, asking to subscribe is completely pointless.

Electronics is a niche topic. Too uninteresting to be promoted. The algorithms promote stuff which has potential for much more views (= more ad revenue).
My niche isn't electronics. My conclusions were quite general, after doing some research on how things are on YT.
I would say I am slightly successful, because managed to get monetized in the first year, and get 8K subscribers. But also my views are falling maybe 30% every month, because ai.
 

Offline Poe

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #71 on: April 25, 2022, 05:34:12 pm »
Naomi says her business is "Youtube".  It isn't.

Naomi's business is selling content.  Youtube just happens to be her only customer.  Like if I made educational sing-a-long videos for kids and just sold them to PornHub. 

Youtube is not her boss either, it's her business partner.  A business partner that doesn't value her content.  Like PornHub not valuing my sing-a-long videos.  In fact, they'd probably be flagged and practically hidden on the Pornhub search results.  Like Youtube's situation, both likely just flag stuff and move on.  Too many content creators, not worth the resources.

If I was in her business, I'd either find a different partner or improve my value to my existing business partner.    Maybe she could pretend to have a mental disorder and act like a victim.  That has been a strong trend for the last couple decades on Youtube/Twitter/Tiktok/Reddit/etc and it's just gaining more steam.    Or she could look to one of the multitude of outrage merchants who are quite successful on the platform.  She could tell us who's lying to us.   We love that apparently.


 

Offline RJSV

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #72 on: April 25, 2022, 05:48:50 pm »
Yeah, thanks. A bad scene there, when someone just wanted use 'groggle' even for business related search, and you've got that whole mess, to figuratively shove aside,...from the distractions.
And 'politics'; first time through (casual search), you get, like 2 relevant 'hits', from news a couple weeks ago.  "That's not right? ", I'm thinking, where's any other coverage ?
Then, later same search and 3 or 4 different articles do come up, but seems erratic..., Like some other agenda when you're simply looking for 'Campus Speaker chased by mob'...Too much to ask ? Yeah somebody's algorithm stinks.
   Anyway, a very relevant topic: I even bought the book, Adnoids for Dummies', (sic) so I could operate the cell phone user interface... Couldn't even find basic stuff, like which buttons do what; that book was so chock full of ads, for APPs.
   Cardiac specialist had 'Google Forms', for starters. I'm thinking; Do I REALLY feel OK with Google, all up in my medical details (boring), now ?
 

Offline YurkshireLad

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #73 on: April 25, 2022, 05:58:15 pm »
Quote
Youtube is not her boss either, it's her business partner.  A business partner that doesn't value her content.

I would cynically argue that content creators are YouTube's products, not business partners. They only exist to create money for YouTube. Content Creators exist at the whim of YouTube's AI, and YT cares not one iota about them as long as they can make more ad revenue for the behemoth.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2022, 06:23:15 pm »
As our friend Naomi has finally discovered, after plenty of warning, one by one the channels not pulling in the million views per vid are being yeeted.

There is zero evidence that happens.

?

Why does Odysee exist?

Nearly every video I see now, OK, you're the exception, the creators complain about the algo, the shadow banning, the copyright matching, the word mincing, the nutters in the comments section. I watch a few hours of internet vids a week and more and more the channels big and small are regularly grumbling and e-begging more than ever.

They came for Jack Vale the other day because after ten years they are sick of him farting on the internet. Why would they do that?

All I'm saying, my evidence is the creators I watch who have been affected earlier and for longer are much happier now over on the alts and just flicking a select portion of the content up on youtube for the masses and for the legacy viewers or for those who want to share to legacy viewers.



On youtube the nuts might be in the comments but on odysee they are making the videos.... I look now and then but I don't see anything that appealing other than what I already know about like Dave. I actually pay for youtube so if I did watch dave on odysee he would not make any money. The whole sponsorship thing is a problem to me, I would rather have the model of paying an amount each month to the platform to distribute among the creators I watch, but we have been duped into this everything is free crap so creators have to beg for donations, you want the service? then pay for it!
 
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Offline madires

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2022, 07:00:25 pm »
Naomi's business is selling content.  Youtube just happens to be her only customer.  Like if I made educational sing-a-long videos for kids and just sold them to PornHub. 

Youtube is not her boss either, it's her business partner.

I'd define YouTube as a video hoster with monetization service. The content you're creating is the product, and maybe you'll earn some money if you're lucky. It's like an online marketplace which takes a huge percentage as commission for providing the platform, a CDN, and payment processing.
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2022, 07:23:21 pm »
That's the Guardian talking complete bollocks as usual. The far-right don't pose a significant threat in the UK. There have only been two deaths in the last 70 years due to far-right extremism: Jo Cox and Makram Ali (Finsbury Park mosque attack), compared to many more due Islamic extremism and the IRA. Radical left-wing groups such as BLM and extreme trans activists pose a similar threat to the far-right, yet no one whines about them. There's loads of hate on Twitter about killing terfs (trans exclusionary feminists) and whites which is tolerated, yet people get kicked off all the time just for saying things like trans women are men.

So I can't trust any newspaper. Sometimes I find I have to read the same story from several different sources just to get a picture when I suspect something is missing or it's vague on details but then even when lengthy like that one.
 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #77 on: April 25, 2022, 07:33:00 pm »
newspapers always have an angle, so I don't read any of them as they all lie.
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #78 on: April 25, 2022, 09:06:49 pm »
As our friend Naomi has finally discovered, after plenty of warning, one by one the channels not pulling in the million views per vid are being yeeted.

There is zero evidence that happens.

?

Why does Odysee exist?

Nearly every video I see now, OK, you're the exception, the creators complain about the algo, the shadow banning, the copyright matching, the word mincing, the nutters in the comments section. I watch a few hours of internet vids a week and more and more the channels big and small are regularly grumbling and e-begging more than ever.

They came for Jack Vale the other day because after ten years they are sick of him farting on the internet. Why would they do that?

All I'm saying, my evidence is the creators I watch who have been affected earlier and for longer are much happier now over on the alts and just flicking a select portion of the content up on youtube for the masses and for the legacy viewers or for those who want to share to legacy viewers.



On youtube the nuts might be in the comments but on odysee they are making the videos.... I look now and then but I don't see anything that appealing other than what I already know about like Dave. I actually pay for youtube so if I did watch dave on odysee he would not make any money. The whole sponsorship thing is a problem to me, I would rather have the model of paying an amount each month to the platform to distribute among the creators I watch, but we have been duped into this everything is free crap so creators have to beg for donations, you want the service? then pay for it!
I agree. It's difficult to find good videos on Odysee. I tend to use YouTube to find creators I like and check their Odysee accounts for content they can't put on YouTube because of censorship.

Censorship in the west has become progressively worse over the last 25 years. It started with the idea of stopping bad people push dangerous and harmful ideas, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. We need to allow people to put across bad and dangerous ideas, so they can be rebutted with well-reasoned, evidence-based counterarguments, otherwise we won't learn and develop as a society.

That's the Guardian talking complete bollocks as usual. The far-right don't pose a significant threat in the UK. There have only been two deaths in the last 70 years due to far-right extremism: Jo Cox and Makram Ali (Finsbury Park mosque attack), compared to many more due Islamic extremism and the IRA. Radical left-wing groups such as BLM and extreme trans activists pose a similar threat to the far-right, yet no one whines about them. There's loads of hate on Twitter about killing terfs (trans exclusionary feminists) and whites which is tolerated, yet people get kicked off all the time just for saying things like trans women are men.

So I can't trust any newspaper. Sometimes I find I have to read the same story from several different sources just to get a picture when I suspect something is missing or it's vague on details but then even when lengthy like that one.
They generally don't outright lie, but they do have blatant political leanings. For example, a right wing paper might blame long doctor's waiting lists on immigration and the government's botched handling of the pandemic, yet a left leaning publication will cite lack of government funding and insufficient pay for hard working doctors who migrated to the UK to help the struggling NHS. In reality both are correct: we import useful foreign medical staff, but immigration does put pressure on the NHS, the government have mishandled the pandemic and funding is an issue, although it's more of a case in how it's spent, rather than too little.

I prefer to look for different news sources, especially those reporting UK stories from abroad, which I tend to trust more as they're less influenced by the UK government.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 09:28:51 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #79 on: April 25, 2022, 10:29:24 pm »
It's difficult to find good videos on Odysee. I tend to use YouTube to find creators I like and check their Odysee accounts for content they can't put on YouTube because of censorship.

I think that comes down to your viewing habits. Television (paid or free-to-air) is exactly the same.

Personally, I'm the kind of person who knows what I want to watch and seek out that content/show/episode, whether that be online streaming media or television. I don't mindlessly click through stuff or wait for recommendations to come to me. I usually come across new things to watch through word-of-mouth.
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #80 on: April 26, 2022, 03:21:32 am »

On youtube the nuts might be in the comments but on odysee they are making the videos.... I look now and then but I don't see anything that appealing other than what I already know about like Dave. I actually pay for youtube so if I did watch dave on odysee he would not make any money. The whole sponsorship thing is a problem to me, I would rather have the model of paying an amount each month to the platform to distribute among the creators I watch, but we have been duped into this everything is free crap so creators have to beg for donations, you want the service? then pay for it!

In the very early days I used to download Dave's vids from the server so I could watch in a quality other than standard y/t potato mode. I didn't have the bandwidth to stream in HD and the flash/firefox implementation was cancer.

The e-begging is prolly here to stay no matter what platform they spruik on. But I just get tired of the "youtube shafted me" videos.

The nutters on Odysee will only decrease in proportion as youtube kicks off (and ticks off) more and more harmless presenters.

I suggest that soon it may be that nutters remain on youtube. Those prepper clowns can manage and are motivated to stay one step ahead of the algo and yet they continuously forecast the imminent collapse of society for five years straight (so buy my prepper stuff before it's too late!)  ::)

It is why I now urge new creators to go back to basics a bit. The best material is of the spare-time nature. That said if gaming the algo is your goal, fill yer boots so long as it's understood that sometimes the machine wins.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2022, 03:23:56 am by Ed.Kloonk »
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #81 on: April 26, 2022, 03:34:35 am »
The whole sponsorship thing is a problem to me, I would rather have the model of paying an amount each month to the platform to distribute among the creators I watch...
That has the problem of inadvertently supporting creators you don't want to support, for example flat earthers and clowns staging plane crashes. It's especially problematic if you specifically want to watch the video in order to criticize it, but that's counterproductive if they get paid for the view.
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #82 on: April 26, 2022, 03:49:38 am »
and clowns staging plane crashes

And the aviation channels contorting themselves trying to distance themselves from it.  :palm:
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Offline Simon

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #83 on: April 26, 2022, 05:00:08 am »
The whole sponsorship thing is a problem to me, I would rather have the model of paying an amount each month to the platform to distribute among the creators I watch...
That has the problem of inadvertently supporting creators you don't want to support, for example flat earthers and clowns staging plane crashes. It's especially problematic if you specifically want to watch the video in order to criticize it, but that's counterproductive if they get paid for the view.

They would be getting far more from their zombie followers and if one were to watch something like that then it would be a tiny portion of view time so not much. Ultimately your argument is flawed, they should not be on youtube, or their channel should be entirely demonetized.

Free speech and all is all well and good when there is the rebuttal to stupid ideas, but we live in a society of silo's. If I came across some flat earther videa I would not even bother to comment on it as the comments would already be full of their fans who won't be told by some stranger on the internet. So all the videos do is drag more people in and make it look like these people are worth listening to.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #84 on: April 26, 2022, 05:04:51 am »
On youtube the nuts might be in the comments but on odysee they are making the videos.... I look now and then but I don't see anything that appealing other than what I already know about like Dave. I actually pay for youtube so if I did watch dave on odysee he would not make any money. The whole sponsorship thing is a problem to me, I would rather have the model of paying an amount each month to the platform to distribute among the creators I watch, but we have been duped into this everything is free crap so creators have to beg for donations, you want the service? then pay for it!

Odysee now have a Patreon like subcription service, as does Utreon. In the case of Odysee, 100% goes to the creator. It's brand new but I expect it will become big.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #85 on: April 26, 2022, 05:09:26 am »
Yes but that is a pain. I would like to sign up and pay once and all creators get a cut like youtube premium.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #86 on: April 26, 2022, 05:12:17 am »
The whole sponsorship thing is a problem to me, I would rather have the model of paying an amount each month to the platform to distribute among the creators I watch...
That has the problem of inadvertently supporting creators you don't want to support, for example flat earthers and clowns staging plane crashes. It's especially problematic if you specifically want to watch the video in order to criticize it, but that's counterproductive if they get paid for the view.

I used to be of that opinion with Red now called Premium. If you pay for preium then some tiny (like, realy, really tiny) percentage goes to the creator of every video you view.
But now I think it's actually fair. If you watched the video, regardless of the intent, then that creator deserves the cut, even if you hate their guts and you are only watching to criticise. The fact is you chose to watch it.
You can chose not to participate in such a system of course.
As a creator, ideally we want people to subscribe to use and have 100% of that come to us. Currently only Odysee offers this.
But in reality I think the premium system really has a place, as it means that any fleeting video you watch that creators gets a cut with no effort on your part.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #87 on: April 26, 2022, 05:13:14 am »
Yes but that is a pain. I would like to sign up and pay once and all creators get a cut like youtube premium.

Have a look at https://www.thevertex.io/

Quote
The Vertex aggregates content from independent creators all over the internet with an emphasis on non-mainstream sources.

 :-+

oh nearly forgot, edit: regarding your wish to pay once, I believe that is a feature they will be adding soon.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2022, 05:15:26 am by Ed.Kloonk »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #88 on: April 26, 2022, 05:13:47 am »
Yes but that is a pain. I would like to sign up and pay once and all creators get a cut like youtube premium.

Yep, see my previous comment as you typed yours, that's why I use it. I do wish the Premium cut was greater though.
 
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #89 on: April 26, 2022, 05:31:45 am »
Yes, but then I would rather Google pay their taxes too and this is one reason I prefer to just pay for the service. I now have every right to demand that 20% or that or whatever it is goes to tax revenue.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #90 on: April 26, 2022, 06:04:48 am »
I used to be of that opinion with Red now called Premium. If you pay for preium then some tiny (like, realy, really tiny) percentage goes to the creator of every video you view.

Funny that they FINALLY renamed that. I worked on a DVR product at a former job that supported YouTube Red and people I worked with were constantly confusing it with RedTube which is not quite the same thing.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #91 on: April 26, 2022, 06:08:27 am »
So I can't trust any newspaper. Sometimes I find I have to read the same story from several different sources just to get a picture when I suspect something is missing or it's vague on details but then even when lengthy like that one.

I do the same thing. I end up looking for the same story on the left slanted and right slanted news sources, read both and try to interpolate something resembling reality. It's frustrating that this is necessary, I mean is it really that hard to just present the facts without an agenda?
 
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Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #92 on: April 26, 2022, 06:29:31 am »
I remembered 20 years ago someone telling me that the newspapers can't even get the football scores right between them let alone the reporting and that they are corrupt.
So I asked "Well what about the Independent?"
They replied: "Nope they're corrupt too."

Football and sports don't interest me so,  don't understand it too well and I don't read the sports section so I woudn't know if the newspapers are or were accurate or not with the scores and reporting.

Odysee now have a Patreon like subcription service, as does Utreon. In the case of Odysee, 100% goes to the creator. It's brand new but I expect it will become big.

I asked a couple of months ago about other payment methods for Odysee premium such as Paypal than giving them my card details.

They replied not "eta" yet but provided a link to one that does it in Bitcoin but I hope they eventually accept paypal.

Quote
I'd like the premium but not happy with paying by card. Can you provide other ways to pay for it like Paypal as I do with Patreon and i don't mind it paying a bit more for it. I'd prefer that.
Quote
We plan to in the future, but don't have an ETA for it. Maybe something like this would work in meantime: https://usa.visa.com/pay-with-visa/cards/prepaid-cards.html or https://paywithmoon.com/
« Last Edit: April 26, 2022, 08:25:11 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #93 on: April 26, 2022, 06:59:28 am »
So I can't trust any newspaper. Sometimes I find I have to read the same story from several different sources just to get a picture when I suspect something is missing or it's vague on details but then even when lengthy like that one.

I do the same thing. I end up looking for the same story on the left slanted and right slanted news sources, read both and try to interpolate something resembling reality. It's frustrating that this is necessary, I mean is it really that hard to just present the facts without an agenda?

Middle of the road journos (when they were still around) used to assure me that if you print vanilla news then both sides come at you claiming you're covering something up.
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #94 on: April 26, 2022, 12:19:18 pm »
There are not differenent sources..
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #95 on: April 26, 2022, 03:20:03 pm »
newspapers always have an angle, so I don't read any of them as they all lie.

So where do you learn about what's happening around the world/country/city?
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #96 on: April 26, 2022, 05:59:17 pm »
newspapers always have an angle, so I don't read any of them as they all lie.

So where do you learn about what's happening around the world/country/city?

If you stick to newspapers for this, your view of reality is likely pretty twisted, without you even realizing. =)
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2022, 07:34:40 pm »
What else is there? Facebook?

Edit: I am not suggesting newspapers are the only source, but I'd like to know of a more credible source - if there isn't one then in writing off newspapers is a bit silly since whatever source you do use will be no better and probably worse.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2022, 07:36:35 pm by dunkemhigh »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2022, 11:59:05 pm »
Are newspapers still a thing? I get most of my news online, I browse a variety of news sites and try to interpolate the true story from what I find. I don't spend a lot of time on news though, most of it is depressing stuff I can't control anyway.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #99 on: April 27, 2022, 02:02:32 am »
Are newspapers still a thing?

Fran has started a new newspaper segment:
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #100 on: April 27, 2022, 04:28:11 am »
Are newspapers still a thing? I get most of my news online, I browse a variety of news sites and try to interpolate the true story from what I find. I don't spend a lot of time on news though, most of it is depressing stuff I can't control anyway.

The free ones get thrown onto my front yard. They are good lighting the BBQ and keeping a stash in readiness for any more TP zombie apocalypse.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #101 on: April 27, 2022, 08:43:12 am »
Quote
Are newspapers still a thing?

I imagine so, but nowadays by 'newspaper' one tends to include the online simulacrum of same.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #102 on: April 27, 2022, 05:11:05 pm »
Are newspapers still a thing?

Yes of course they are. But if you only use their online counterparts, that's still the same content.

Problem is that the major ones, almost worldwide, have stopped being independent and almost all belong to large groups/billionaires with definite political agendas and tight links with governments. That's not good.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #103 on: April 27, 2022, 05:29:02 pm »
The underlying problem is generally corporations are taking over government and that is ending the unpredictability (like democracy)  Of course all corporations want this, its been their goal since the 1930s to end the unpredictability of voting.

Otherwise, people could just vote whatever they wanted to happen. That would sometimes destroy the investments of corporations when the people didn't agree with them.  So there has been this huge change, that not many people know has happened. Its global and permanent.  And Nobody is about to announce this, ever. why would they?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 06:26:48 pm by cdev »
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #104 on: April 27, 2022, 05:37:31 pm »
Simulacrum,
Its a word invented by Baudrillard, and a pretty descriptive/good one.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 06:03:30 pm by cdev »
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #105 on: April 27, 2022, 05:42:49 pm »
Quote
Otherwise, people could just vote whatever they wanted to happen.

Very unlikely, unfortunately. Or perhaps luckily, given what some people want!

The problem is you can't vote for a single thing. Well, you can, but doing so drags along several pages full of other manifesto commitments, many of which you might prefer to vote against in preference to the thing you want to vote for.

There is also the small problem of not being able to vote for something that isn't on offer. If, for instance, neither of the main parties in the UK say they will ban excessive profits from motorway service stations then no-one will be able to vote for that regardless of who they align behind.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #106 on: April 27, 2022, 05:46:49 pm »
Some of my friends who work in the infotainment industry tried to impress on me years ago what it was and that it wasn't "news". I should have listened to them earlier. I would have saved myself a lot of frustration.
Are newspapers still a thing? I get most of my news online, I browse a variety of news sites and try to interpolate the true story from what I find. I don't spend a lot of time on news though, most of it is depressing stuff I can't control anyway.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #107 on: April 27, 2022, 06:25:15 pm »
Yes of course they are. But if you only use their online counterparts, that's still the same content.

Problem is that the major ones, almost worldwide, have stopped being independent and almost all belong to large groups/billionaires with definite political agendas and tight links with governments. That's not good.

I typically read the online text versions of the local TV news stations, I used to read some of the local newspapers online years ago but I think they all went behind paywalls at which point I stopped. The same problem of belonging to large groups with agendas is true to both though.
 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #108 on: April 27, 2022, 06:51:10 pm »
What else is there? Facebook?

Edit: I am not suggesting newspapers are the only source, but I'd like to know of a more credible source - if there isn't one then in writing off newspapers is a bit silly since whatever source you do use will be no better and probably worse.


what's facebook?
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #109 on: April 27, 2022, 07:55:53 pm »
They are infotainment..


Fecesbook is infotainment.. Its a lot like excrement..Monopoly privileges

What else is there? Facebook?

Edit: I am not suggesting newspapers are the only source, but I'd like to know of a more credible source - if there isn't one then in writing off newspapers is a bit silly since whatever source you do use will be no better and probably worse.


what's facebook?



I like the phrasing of the WEF and the corporate contyrolled WHO and its sham COVIX organization, as well as the various gfovernments being controlled by corporations .. and a global coups d' etat.. a global hijack as it were.. as trying to perpetrate a big trick...   The UN invited in the corporations.. due to the withdrawals of state funding..
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 08:04:07 pm by cdev »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #110 on: April 27, 2022, 11:14:01 pm »
Are newspapers still a thing?

Yes of course they are. But if you only use their online counterparts, that's still the same content.

Problem is that the major ones, almost worldwide, have stopped being independent and almost all belong to large groups/billionaires with definite political agendas and tight links with governments. That's not good.

A whole bunch of independent news channels have sprung up on Youtube, but they usually have a bent to them of some sort. But simply follow several of them if you want balanced coverage.
Doesn't help though that Youtube have publically admitted that these are not "authoritative sources" and so they algorithmically demote them.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #111 on: April 27, 2022, 11:18:41 pm »
Do they publish what (they claim are)  "authoritative sources" ? Ive been looking for something on that for years..

in a sense its much like slavery, from the perspective of the slavers.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 07:41:34 pm by cdev »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #112 on: April 27, 2022, 11:50:49 pm »
Do they publish what are "authoritative sources" ? Ive been looking for something on that for years..

Off hand I'm not sure, but it's a very public policy.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #113 on: April 28, 2022, 12:42:37 am »
Do they publish what are "authoritative sources" ? Ive been looking for something on that for years..

Off hand I'm not sure, but it's a very public policy.

YT automatically flags videos that it detects as dealing with a current political/medical/... you name it/ topic, and gives what it thinks is the official source of information for this. Usually, a government agency of some kind.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #114 on: April 28, 2022, 07:43:10 pm »
Do they publish what are "authoritative sources" ? Ive been looking for something on that for years..

Off hand I'm not sure, but it's a very public policy.

YT automatically flags videos that it detects as dealing with a current political/medical/... you name it/ topic, and gives what it thinks is the official source of information for this. Usually, a government agency of some kind.

Authorities. Maybe big corporations, governments, etc. ? YouTube is generally more interesting (to me) than Twitter.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 05:24:51 pm by cdev »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #115 on: April 29, 2022, 02:14:01 am »
Do they publish what are "authoritative sources" ? Ive been looking for something on that for years..

Off hand I'm not sure, but it's a very public policy.

YT automatically flags videos that it detects as dealing with a current political/medical/... you name it/ topic, and gives what it thinks is the official source of information for this. Usually, a government agency of some kind.

In the case of political stories, "authoritatvie sources" like the mainstream media. Independent news sources get absolutely crushed in algorithm. You can't even find their stuff with exact title searches, just like the issue with Naomi.
 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #116 on: April 29, 2022, 02:51:07 am »
If Even if you type her name, you can't find "Naomi Wu"  thats bad.. that's just evil.. Anybody would feel snubbed.. Hopefully thats not the case (afraid to look, but I could see that happening)

Its not, a search by name finds her.. good..
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #117 on: April 29, 2022, 02:55:15 am »
Do they publish what are "authoritative sources" ? Ive been looking for something on that for years..

Off hand I'm not sure, but it's a very public policy.

I'd like to know if you find asny written policy.. For example, there is a meta description tag..an xml format for source verification.. by fsct checker sites - wish I could use it to provide source info.. and have it picked up consistently..
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #118 on: April 29, 2022, 02:55:24 am »
Perhaps someone should write a browser extension that blacklists (filters out) mainstream media junk, flat earth junk channels, etc. from Youtube search results with the user being able to select what to blacklist.
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #119 on: April 29, 2022, 10:40:34 am »
Quote
for source verification.. by fsct checker sites

Who fact checks the fact checkers?

Seriously. At the last election there were 'fact checking' websites run by one side or the other to a) confirm whatever that party wanted to push, and b) diss the other side's claims.
 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #120 on: April 29, 2022, 10:50:29 am »
Quote
for source verification.. by fsct checker sites

Who fact checks the fact checkers?

Seriously. At the last election there were 'fact checking' websites run by one side or the other to a) confirm whatever that party wanted to push, and b) diss the other side's claims.

Fact checkers are invariably just journalists, who lack the technical competence in the subject they're supposed to be verifying. Even experts aren't 100% certain of the facts, which has often been the case over the pandemic. Official bodies often get it wrong, or only accept facts which support their policies/agenda. I'm very skeptical when only one narrative is accepted to be true, by the mainstream media.
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #121 on: April 29, 2022, 11:03:20 am »
Quote
for source verification.. by fsct checker sites

Who fact checks the fact checkers?

Seriously. At the last election there were 'fact checking' websites run by one side or the other to a) confirm whatever that party wanted to push, and b) diss the other side's claims.

Fact checkers are invariably just journalists, who lack the technical competence in the subject they're supposed to be verifying. Even experts aren't 100% certain of the facts, which has often been the case over the pandemic. Official bodies often get it wrong, or only accept facts which support their policies/agenda. I'm very skeptical when only one narrative is accepted to be true, by the mainstream media.

Once you make peace with fact that the modern fact checker doesn't tend to hold facts as the top priority in their quest, well..

 :)
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #122 on: April 29, 2022, 11:11:27 am »
Quote
for source verification.. by fsct checker sites

Who fact checks the fact checkers?

Seriously. At the last election there were 'fact checking' websites run by one side or the other to a) confirm whatever that party wanted to push, and b) diss the other side's claims.
As I hear, people who do fact checking have burnout problems faster than the average JS programmer.
 
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #123 on: April 29, 2022, 04:20:05 pm »
Quote
Fact checkers are invariably just journalists

Proper ones, no doubt. What I'm pointing out is that there were/are essentially fake fact checkers who look like the real thing (unless you know something they are pushing is wrong). How do you know the checkers you are looking at are pukka fact checkers?

Traditionally, you could rely on mainstream newspapers and TV because if they were pulling a fast one (that was bad enough) they would be called out by the oversight organisation. Sure, there would be bias but outright fibbing would have to be corrected. The likes of YouTube channels... well, not so much. The web... lol.
 
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #124 on: April 29, 2022, 05:27:45 pm »
That was then. Now, this journalistic ethic has left several major media corporations and what remains are activists - these are one part of the body of authoritative sources and anything posted that contradicted them was censored by the tech overlords. Fact checkers also rely on them, carefully selecting the bias du jour when making their judgment calls. A journalist named Tim Pool noticed that quite early and created a media company so it could act as an authoritative source and have a leg to stand against some of the excess of these guys.

Another authoritative source is the government: with the deep divide currently present in politics, their value is close to nil.

So, IMHO the only reliable authoritative source is indeed research done by oneself... Just like many here already suggested.
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #125 on: April 29, 2022, 05:43:58 pm »
They dont get fact checked except by themselves.

Thats the whole point of their agenda.

They were set up to do that, they didnt become authoritative.

It became too formulaic and they were set up for a purpose.. to take over what "was" (no room for questioning here) "the "facts".. kind of like how slavery was set up, and how the wto was set up to become the "rules of the global economy" take it or leave it or get out.

Quote
for source verification.. by fsct checker sites

Who fact checks the fact checkers?

Seriously. At the last election there were 'fact checking' websites run by one side or the other to a) confirm whatever that party wanted to push, and b) diss the other side's claims.
As I hear, people who do fact checking have burnout problems faster than the average JS programmer.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 05:45:37 pm by cdev »
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #126 on: April 29, 2022, 05:51:29 pm »
Quote
for source verification.. by fsct checker sites

Who fact checks the fact checkers?

Seriously. At the last election there were 'fact checking' websites run by one side or the other to a) confirm whatever that party wanted to push, and b) diss the other side's claims.

Fact checkers are invariably just journalists, who lack the technical competence in the subject they're supposed to be verifying. Even experts aren't 100% certain of the facts, which has often been the case over the pandemic. Official bodies often get it wrong, or only accept facts which support their policies/agenda. I'm very skeptical when only one narrative is accepted to be true, by the mainstream media.

A dedicated effort to buy up newspapers in the 1980s and 1990s made jobs for journalists very very scarce, in the US. This was quite intentional and coincided with an attempt to take over the world of trade, with the WTO Services Agreement, which was bound to result in the demise of a great many jobs.. .  which they claimed would be offset by higher profits.. But for whom?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 05:57:54 pm by cdev »
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #127 on: April 29, 2022, 05:55:03 pm »
I receiver the right not use the internet or not to own or use a cell phone.
I receiver the right to do what you do not know. to say what you do not know. and to be were you do not see.
 :-X

But if you write that down and try to share it some people now will call you a terrorist, why?

What changed?? 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 06:19:55 pm by cdev »
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #128 on: April 29, 2022, 06:06:01 pm »
Quote
Otherwise, people could just vote whatever they wanted to happen.

Very unlikely, unfortunately. Or perhaps luckily, given what some people want!

The problem is you can't vote for a single thing. Well, you can, but doing so drags along several pages full of other manifesto commitments, many of which you might prefer to vote against in preference to the thing you want to vote for.

There is also the small problem of not being able to vote for something that isn't on offer. If, for instance, neither of the main parties in the UK say they will ban excessive profits from motorway service stations then no-one will be able to vote for that regardless of who they align behind.

They dont want to ever ban "excessive profits" for anything.. On "principle". Because to them, no profits are ever excessive, since people enter into contract of their free voilition. Thyey can enter into the deal, or do without, whatever, forever.

Do without food, or without water, under some circumstances slavery is still legal. If you steal anything.

Can you see why? Read up on Churchill's Bengal famine. On Principle, no profits are ever "excessive". They simply are profits. Large ones.  Sometimes people sell themselves into slavery, to eat. Sound userious? Sure, but... What does this tell you about the future they are planning for us all? I realized when I was pretty young how extreme a future some of our people felt was their entitlement.  Why do people fail to understand why some people are buying up all the farmland and housing they can?

« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 06:21:25 pm by cdev »
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #129 on: April 29, 2022, 08:35:48 pm »
Quote from: rsjsouza
IMHO the only reliable authoritative source is indeed research done by oneself

Which means what? How do you research stuff yourself? All you can do, unless you are omnipresent, is read/watch/listen someone elses research. We're going round in circles here, not actually zeroing in on anything.

 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #130 on: April 29, 2022, 09:17:52 pm »
Quote from: rsjsouza
IMHO the only reliable authoritative source is indeed research done by oneself

Which means what? How do you research stuff yourself? All you can do, unless you are omnipresent, is read/watch/listen someone elses research.
Unless you are a field journalist that is eyewitness of a specific event, research means you look for information from various sources in an attempt to have a balanced view from many sides. This is obviously only reasonable if you have enough interest vested in a specific subject, as this requires a lot of time and effort. Most people do only cursory reading of headlines and/or use a single source with the newfangled fad of "fact checkers", blue marks, etc.

We're going round in circles here, not actually zeroing in on anything.
My post expanded yours with the fact that you can't trust the ethics of corporate journalism more than the independent guy anymore. At any rate, you can't possibly think that anyone here at EEV will have a magical solution for a century-old problem nor point you to a single source of absolutely unbiased source, do you? :) The only point that one can "zero in" is this: get your information from different sources and read past the headlines - now with the internet it is easier than before, but it expanded exponentially.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #131 on: April 29, 2022, 11:11:09 pm »
Quote
At any rate, you can't possibly think that anyone here at EEV will have a magical solution for a century-old problem nor point you to a single source of absolutely unbiased source, do you?

Of course not, but that seems to be the solution being proposed here. Hence my comments.
 
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #132 on: April 30, 2022, 04:07:30 am »
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #133 on: April 30, 2022, 07:55:03 am »
I typically read the online text versions of the local TV news stations, I used to read some of the local newspapers online years ago but I think they all went behind paywalls at which point I stopped. The same problem of belonging to large groups with agendas is true to both though.

It's worse than that though, News Limited owned newspapers have been caught out distorting news stories for financial reasons.
See how accurate the story is, depends on how much you spend on advertising with them!
small ad=accurate story, no add=distorted information, large ad=full page news story that is basically a poorly disguised ad.

A non profit running an event just wanted to have it listed on the paper's events page, nothing fancy just a brief mention.
Newspaper agreed to promote it for free, and send out reporter who took down the details, they double checked the notes she took were accurate.
When published all the details were wrong, times, entry cost, actual event details etc, it was just pointless changes that helped no one.

Newspapers have a limited amount of space, so actual useful information has been replaced with mass appeal crap in the hope of selling more papers, doesn't work anymore.
Anyway these are the same problems we have with google/youtube, they want zero risk content that will attract advertisers and hence get higher prices for ads.
it's going to fail, for the same reasons newspapers and TV are failing, people abandoned TV and moved to youtube as they got sick of dumbed down content and tons of ads, getting to choose what sort of content you watch/get recommended is vital to keeping people watching.

Naomi Wu is having problems because Youtube have decided for whatever reason her presence is a financial risk to them, be it offending advertising agencies, the Chinese government, or just moron housewives who freakout when their husband is so interested in this woman with big tits (when he's just watching the 3D printer review).
 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #134 on: April 30, 2022, 09:29:58 am »
(video)
As Dave pointed out on the comments section of this video, there is very little to be done other than providing feedback on this portion of the search results page. I personally don't see a problem with the "algorithm" as she mentioned: it is returning an unfiltered result based on what people actually search*. What one does with that information is what matters.

In a society that is more accepting of the trans community, such piece of information, despite distorted, could be the spark of a broader conversation about the word or even be used as PR currency in a partnership.

On the other hand, if this information alone is enough to steer a potential partner from getting involved, wouldn't it be killing a partnership that shouldn't have happened in the first place anyways? Of course the first impression is the one that tends to last, but I don't believe that everyone serious in wanting to make money will overlook the body of work and achievements.

*Sure, this is a "chicken and egg" situation: the more proeminent a search result is, the more people will click on it, making it even more popular. Both the good and the bad comes with the popularity.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #135 on: April 30, 2022, 10:02:37 am »
Quote
Newspapers have a limited amount of space, so actual useful information has been replaced with mass appeal crap in the hope of selling more papers, doesn't work anymore.

That's true (the space bit, at least) for paper-based ones, but online there is not really any limit. The Daily Mail, for instance, not only has bazillions of articles on its front page but each is probably several days worth of concatenated (and sometimes barely related) wibble.

I tend to do the same as james_s suggests and sample from diverse sites but, often, stories are exclusive to a particular site (at least for a day or so) so there is no alternative view to compare. Sometimes a major story you'd expect to be plastered everywhere is barely mentioned, if at all, on a more, ah, 'acceptable' site.
 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #136 on: April 30, 2022, 11:10:51 am »
(video)
As Dave pointed out on the comments section of this video, there is very little to be done other than providing feedback on this portion of the search results page. I personally don't see a problem with the "algorithm" as she mentioned: it is returning an unfiltered result based on what people actually search*. What one does with that information is what matters.

Exactly! The algorithm does what it is designed for. You could blame the people responsible for that algorithm to be insensible or indifferent. But the real problem is the humankind. We're so dumb and ignorant that it really hurts.
 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #137 on: April 30, 2022, 11:54:21 am »
(video)
As Dave pointed out on the comments section of this video, there is very little to be done other than providing feedback on this portion of the search results page. I personally don't see a problem with the "algorithm" as she mentioned: it is returning an unfiltered result based on what people actually search*. What one does with that information is what matters.

In a society that is more accepting of the trans community, such piece of information, despite distorted, could be the spark of a broader conversation about the word or even be used as PR currency in a partnership.

It's now gone. I did report it a few hours ago, so maybe that did the trick?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 11:58:06 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #138 on: April 30, 2022, 05:09:04 pm »
Its significant that later in life, opportunities to be nice to trans people or more accepting (of everybody) are seen by some as missed opportunities that will never come one's way again. Sadly.

The world has lots of room for improvement. Its interesting how an investigation of the roots and roles of slavery has brought me in the last few weeks  to more understanding of the history of the world. Particularly the Middile East.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 05:12:13 pm by cdev »
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #139 on: April 30, 2022, 05:27:57 pm »
Perhaps someone should write a browser extension that blacklists (filters out) mainstream media junk, flat earth junk channels, etc. from Youtube search results with the user being able to select what to blacklist.

Back in the day, it was all about the science. Back in the day. I was around the founding of many of these entities.. and really still dont understand how we got to where we are today as well as I would like. I know it has much to do with the creation of highly mobile capital. Money going everywhere.. This is what spawned Rodrik's Trilemma..

What happened during the various transitions?  I think much is to be learned from trying to understand the roots of them. For example, this was one of them.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/comparative-studies-in-society-and-history/article/reforming-everywhere-and-all-at-once-transitioning-to-free-labor-across-the-british-empire-18371838/E2BBDC44298E2C11B71A1737DB36B4A6
« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 05:37:24 pm by cdev »
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #140 on: April 30, 2022, 08:54:22 pm »
Exactly! The algorithm does what it is designed for. You could blame the people responsible for that algorithm to be insensible or indifferent. But the real problem is the humankind. We're so dumb and ignorant that it really hurts.
The people responsible for the algorithm have no way of knowing a priori what people will search for and what suggestions will be provided and how they will offend somebody. For that reason, Google has been busy removing politically incorrect search results and suggestions more or less manually for over a decade.
 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #141 on: April 30, 2022, 09:00:40 pm »
The world has lots of room for improvement. Its interesting how an investigation of the roots and roles of slavery has brought me in the last few weeks  to more understanding of the history of the world. Particularly the Middile East.
The really sad thing about slavery is its still widespread today, yet few people give a damn about those still being oppressed in this way.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #142 on: April 30, 2022, 09:03:59 pm »
The world has lots of room for improvement. Its interesting how an investigation of the roots and roles of slavery has brought me in the last few weeks  to more understanding of the history of the world. Particularly the Middile East.
The really sad thing about slavery is its still widespread today, yet few people give a damn about those still being oppressed in this way.

Well, it's like pollution. We displace it kinda far away so that it's not directly visible, and we feel good.
 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #143 on: April 30, 2022, 09:25:40 pm »
The world has lots of room for improvement. Its interesting how an investigation of the roots and roles of slavery has brought me in the last few weeks  to more understanding of the history of the world. Particularly the Middile East.
The really sad thing about slavery is its still widespread today, yet few people give a damn about those still being oppressed in this way.
For me that has devolved to trying to get my wife to stop buying a certain brand of seafood.

Well, it's like pollution. We displace it kinda far away so that it's not directly visible, and we feel good.

That is a very good way to put this. Because thats what awareness of the most common abuses often devolves into. Watching Mondo Africa the other day and its massacres of Omani Arabs in Zimbabwe, which I had been warned about by VS Naipaul's fiction book, A Bend in the River"  still it made me think and want to know more..

Getting sick while poor?

Slavery by race is now illegal Slavery in the United States  is legal if somebody is duly convicted of a crime. Make America Great Again, means make America Profitable Again, to some people. Paying people to work back them was fairly progressive. It seems that some people feel thats all thats necessary now. Well, slavery is still common. And the existence of decent jobs is all thats standing against it.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 09:38:48 pm by cdev »
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #144 on: April 30, 2022, 09:35:04 pm »
The world has lots of room for improvement. Its interesting how an investigation of the roots and roles of slavery has brought me in the last few weeks  to more understanding of the history of the world. Particularly the Middile East.
The really sad thing about slavery is its still widespread today, yet few people give a damn about those still being oppressed in this way.

Well, it's like pollution. We displace it kinda far away so that it's not directly visible, and we feel good.

Getting sick while poor?

Slavery by race is now illegal Slavery in the United States  is legal if somebody is duly convicted of a crime. Make America Great Again, means make America Profitable Again, to some people. Paying people to work back them was fairly progressive.
What are you talking about? Are other forms of slavery legal in the US?
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #145 on: April 30, 2022, 09:44:12 pm »
The world has lots of room for improvement. Its interesting how an investigation of the roots and roles of slavery has brought me in the last few weeks  to more understanding of the history of the world. Particularly the Middile East.
The really sad thing about slavery is its still widespread today, yet few people give a damn about those still being oppressed in this way.
If you have been duly convicted of a crime, yes. And its quite common. (prison labor)  Slavery has two histories, the ones were familiar with the Atlantic slave trade and the west African slave trade largely ended in the last century, buy there are several other nexuses of slavery you would be surporised to learn about in the Indian Ocean, cenetring around Zanzibar.. And also the so called Barbary Coast.. Anyway, i'm right now digging into Oman and the Middile East.. which is interesting.
Well, it's like pollution. We displace it kinda far away so that it's not directly visible, and we feel good.

Getting sick while poor?

Slavery by race is now illegal Slavery in the United States  is legal if somebody is duly convicted of a crime. Make America Great Again, means make America Profitable Again, to some people. Paying people to work back them was fairly progressive. To some peoploe it still is. Its not the default, its a presnt to them.
What are you talking about? Are other forms of slavery legal in the US?

Lets not talk about it any more.. It makes me sad.. Nobody is entitled to anything. We still have a lot of work to do to bring ourselves up to where we ought to be.

There is a pervasive sense of entitlement radiated by the wealthy, who seem to feel entitled to huge windfalls right around now. Which bugs me.. They are arguably right the way things are going now. The concept of a "living wage" is alien to some people because they are claiming entitlement to windfalls due to vast increases in migration under free trade. Making wages fall a lot. Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Ive known about this since I was a kid.. And that knowledge transformed me..
« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 09:55:10 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #146 on: April 30, 2022, 09:49:53 pm »
The world has lots of room for improvement. Its interesting how an investigation of the roots and roles of slavery has brought me in the last few weeks  to more understanding of the history of the world. Particularly the Middile East.
The really sad thing about slavery is its still widespread today, yet few people give a damn about those still being oppressed in this way.

Well, it's like pollution. We displace it kinda far away so that it's not directly visible, and we feel good.

Getting sick while poor?

Slavery by race is now illegal Slavery in the United States  is legal if somebody is duly convicted of a crime. Make America Great Again, means make America Profitable Again, to some people. Paying people to work back them was fairly progressive.
What are you talking about? Are other forms of slavery legal in the US?
I think he's referring to the US prison industrial complex, that uses prisoners in close to slavery conditions to produce a huge range of consumer products. Most countries only allow prisoners to produce things for the state, like military uniforms. There is a reason why certain groups really like private prisons, and having the world's large percentage of people incarcerated in the US.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #147 on: April 30, 2022, 09:58:16 pm »
Yup.. I am weird in a certain way, I just notice certain things a lot more.. Certain kinds of behaviors.. I am just praying that I'm wrong.

Lets leave it there for now. Pray.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #148 on: April 30, 2022, 11:07:31 pm »
(video)
As Dave pointed out on the comments section of this video, there is very little to be done other than providing feedback on this portion of the search results page. I personally don't see a problem with the "algorithm" as she mentioned: it is returning an unfiltered result based on what people actually search*. What one does with that information is what matters.

In a society that is more accepting of the trans community, such piece of information, despite distorted, could be the spark of a broader conversation about the word or even be used as PR currency in a partnership.

It's now gone. I did report it a few hours ago, so maybe that did the trick?

It was actioned internally at Google. It seems Fran has viewers with influence.
Would be nice to know how easy it is for things like Naomi's issue to get fixed at Youtube. Sometimes you hear of things getting fixed, other times you hear about huge names not being able to get things fixed, people you would think would have direct influence.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 11:10:00 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #149 on: April 30, 2022, 11:08:51 pm »
I think he's referring to the US prison industrial complex, that uses prisoners in close to slavery conditions to produce a huge range of consumer products. Most countries only allow prisoners to produce things for the state, like military uniforms. There is a reason why certain groups really like private prisons, and having the world's large percentage of people incarcerated in the US.

I think having prisoners perform useful work is a good idea, it isn't slavery, it's punishment for committing crimes. Personally I think any proceeds should go toward reimbursing crime victims rather than profit for private prisons though.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #150 on: April 30, 2022, 11:10:38 pm »
I think he's referring to the US prison industrial complex, that uses prisoners in close to slavery conditions to produce a huge range of consumer products. Most countries only allow prisoners to produce things for the state, like military uniforms. There is a reason why certain groups really like private prisons, and having the world's large percentage of people incarcerated in the US.

I think having prisoners perform useful work is a good idea, it isn't slavery, it's punishment for committing crimes. Personally I think any proceeds should go toward reimbursing crime victims rather than profit for private prisons though.

Please do not derail this thread with slavery talk.
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #151 on: April 30, 2022, 11:19:12 pm »
I think he's referring to the US prison industrial complex, that uses prisoners in close to slavery conditions to produce a huge range of consumer products. Most countries only allow prisoners to produce things for the state, like military uniforms. There is a reason why certain groups really like private prisons, and having the world's large percentage of people incarcerated in the US.

I think having prisoners perform useful work is a good idea, it isn't slavery, it's punishment for committing crimes. Personally I think any proceeds should go toward reimbursing crime victims rather than profit for private prisons though.
I agree that making prisoners work to help pay for the prison is a good idea. That's not what seems to happen, though. The poor old tax payers pay to run the prison, and someone else profits from the work the prisoners do.
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #152 on: May 01, 2022, 03:42:13 am »
Just found this:
https://www.androidpolice.com/youtube-is-now-hiding-the-like-count/
Quote
YouTube's messing with likes, and we can't hit dislike hard enough
BY JAMES PECKHAM PUBLISHED 3 DAYS AGO
Likes are hidden for some users

YouTube decided to hide the dislike counter from public view in late 2021, and it seems the service may now be experimenting with a similar change for likes on videos. Various YouTube users have taken to Reddit and Twitter to report the lack of a like counter in the normal position, and it's instead moved to the video's description. Reports from Reddit users u/morvexT and u/Ghostyscarab372 show videos without like counters, and some follow-up comments report the same issue. We've also seen three separate cases on Twitter with users complaining that the like counter has disappeared in the last 24 hours.

We haven’t been able to replicate the same interface as you can see on these social media posts, which makes us believe it’s a test limited to certain accounts. The like counter is still there for at least two Android Police writers, and there’s currently no confirmation of the experiment from YouTube itself.

One of these reports came from Twitter user @Thabet_Yusuf who confirmed that if they press on the description of the video they are still able to see the like counter. It seems YouTube isn't planning to hide likes away entirely as it did with dislikes, but it may be aiming to make them a touch harder to find than before. Usually, likes appear directly below the video.

So far, all the reports we’ve spotted seem to be for the mobile version of YouTube. We’ve yet to see anyone report this on desktop or devices such as Smart TVs and consoles. Are you finding the like counter has disappeared from your YouTube app? Let us know in the comments.

Looks like they are trying balance it out a bit, if they are going to hide the negative feedback counter why not do it to the other. Maybe they should have thought about this during their experiment early last year before their final decision.
 

Online magic

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #153 on: May 01, 2022, 05:11:19 am »
Wonder what's the motivation for that :o

Concerns about people liking videos with many likes already out of peer pressure?
Some video promoted by YT didn't receive enough likes for their liking and they think it doesn't look good for them?
 :popcorn:
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #154 on: May 01, 2022, 08:16:29 am »
Looks like they are trying balance it out a bit, if they are going to hide the negative feedback counter why not do it to the other. Maybe they should have thought about this during their experiment early last year before their final decision.

They didn't think it through, they were pressured to do it by the the corporate media and other big accounts, and the whitehouse who were getting ratioed to hell.
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #155 on: May 01, 2022, 08:48:07 am »
(video)
As Dave pointed out on the comments section of this video, there is very little to be done other than providing feedback on this portion of the search results page. I personally don't see a problem with the "algorithm" as she mentioned: it is returning an unfiltered result based on what people actually search*. What one does with that information is what matters.

In a society that is more accepting of the trans community, such piece of information, despite distorted, could be the spark of a broader conversation about the word or even be used as PR currency in a partnership.

It's now gone. I did report it a few hours ago, so maybe that did the trick?
I didn't think the word transvestite is a slur. I suppose a good number of people don't know the difference between transgender and transvestite/cross-dresser, or whatever the accepted term is for a man dressed as a women. This isn't helped by the fact that it appears that some people who claim to be trans are just cross-dressers.

Yes, Google will just base its results on what people search and will display troll results, if trolled.
 

Online HobGoblyn

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #156 on: May 01, 2022, 10:21:31 am »
Just found this:
https://www.androidpolice.com/youtube-is-now-hiding-the-like-count/
Quote
YouTube's messing with likes, and we can't hit dislike hard enough
BY JAMES PECKHAM PUBLISHED 3 DAYS AGO
Likes are hidden for some users

YouTube decided to hide the dislike counter from public view in late 2021, and it seems the service may now be experimenting with a similar change for likes on videos. Various YouTube users have taken to Reddit and Twitter to report the lack of a like counter in the normal position, and it's instead moved to the video's description. Reports from Reddit users u/morvexT and u/Ghostyscarab372 show videos without like counters, and some follow-up comments report the same issue. We've also seen three separate cases on Twitter with users complaining that the like counter has disappeared in the last 24 hours.

We haven’t been able to replicate the same interface as you can see on these social media posts, which makes us believe it’s a test limited to certain accounts. The like counter is still there for at least two Android Police writers, and there’s currently no confirmation of the experiment from YouTube itself.

One of these reports came from Twitter user @Thabet_Yusuf who confirmed that if they press on the description of the video they are still able to see the like counter. It seems YouTube isn't planning to hide likes away entirely as it did with dislikes, but it may be aiming to make them a touch harder to find than before. Usually, likes appear directly below the video.

So far, all the reports we’ve spotted seem to be for the mobile version of YouTube. We’ve yet to see anyone report this on desktop or devices such as Smart TVs and consoles. Are you finding the like counter has disappeared from your YouTube app? Let us know in the comments.

Looks like they are trying balance it out a bit, if they are going to hide the negative feedback counter why not do it to the other. Maybe they should have thought about this during their experiment early last year before their final decision.

Trouble is, almost every business on the planet goes out of their way to hide bad reviews, a while back Private Eye (uk magazine) had an article about trustpilot, saying how bad reviews of certain companies it’s parent company owns, seem to have disappeared.

As for things like Facebook, I loath Facebook, I’m on it to keep in touch with about 20 people where I grew up. Unfortunately this has the pain of getting all Facebooks ads.

One got my attention,  a washing machine manufacturer claiming quote

“ Xyz products are all Made in England to some of the most stringent design and manufacturing standards in the world.”  They also made a huge point about how their washing machines had hot fill as well as cold fill.

Someone asked “ what percentage is made in Britain, they replied 87% is made in their own factory”

I asked them how they arrive at 87%, is it by number of pieces, weight or size etc, pointing out that the most likely thing to go wrong are the electronics, and could they confirm what percentage of the electronics are made in the UK.

I also questioned their claim that having a separate hot fill in addition to cold fill would save the average UK householder with a combi boiler any money, again politely pointing out that for many householders it can take up to a minute before hot water reaches the tap, so in many cases the boiler would be kicking in to heat water after the machine had filled up, hence wasting money not saving it.

My post was removed and I have been banned from their site



« Last Edit: May 01, 2022, 10:23:09 am by HobGoblyn »
 

Offline madires

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #157 on: May 01, 2022, 11:19:11 am »
My post was removed and I have been banned from their site

You're meant to enjoy ads and to consume, not to ask reasonable questions. >:D On the bright side, you've learned that they are hypocrites and suppressing free speech.
 
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Offline madires

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #158 on: May 01, 2022, 12:16:11 pm »
The Day After The Google Video:
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #159 on: May 01, 2022, 01:52:13 pm »
Although its not the main function of YouTube, there is absolutely no reason that you cant set up your own YouTube vote counter, except their trademarked name.

If you call it something else.

You should try doing that. Offer a means for people to vote on web content, and get people to use it. Slice and dice and sort in different ways.Give these web sites competition. They have become hugge monopolies that are stealing all thats interesting on the web and selling it to the biggest corporations to track people.

Ive set up my own search engine, so that I can avoid using Google. Its only accessible to me. Every day I spider a large number of sites. I save my index of their their content to a database. I use a search engine that pre-existed Google. I remember using it back then. (I also pre-exist Google and can prove it.) I refuse to use anything like their "YouTube App". I just use http GET and POST.

Just found this:
https://www.androidpolice.com/youtube-is-now-hiding-the-like-count/
Quote
YouTube's messing with likes, and we can't hit dislike hard enough
BY JAMES PECKHAM PUBLISHED 3 DAYS AGO
Likes are hidden for some users

YouTube decided to hide the dislike counter from public view in late 2021, and it seems the service may now be experimenting with a similar change for likes on videos. Various YouTube users have taken to Reddit and Twitter to report the lack of a like counter in the normal position, and it's instead moved to the video's description. Reports from Reddit users u/morvexT and u/Ghostyscarab372 show videos without like counters, and some follow-up comments report the same issue. We've also seen three separate cases on Twitter with users complaining that the like counter has disappeared in the last 24 hours.

We haven’t been able to replicate the same interface as you can see on these social media posts, which makes us believe it’s a test limited to certain accounts. The like counter is still there for at least two Android Police writers, and there’s currently no confirmation of the experiment from YouTube itself.

One of these reports came from Twitter user @Thabet_Yusuf who confirmed that if they press on the description of the video they are still able to see the like counter. It seems YouTube isn't planning to hide likes away entirely as it did with dislikes, but it may be aiming to make them a touch harder to find than before. Usually, likes appear directly below the video.

So far, all the reports we’ve spotted seem to be for the mobile version of YouTube. We’ve yet to see anyone report this on desktop or devices such as Smart TVs and consoles. Are you finding the like counter has disappeared from your YouTube app? Let us know in the comments.

Looks like they are trying balance it out a bit, if they are going to hide the negative feedback counter why not do it to the other. Maybe they should have thought about this during their experiment early last year before their final decision.

Trouble is, almost every business on the planet goes out of their way to hide bad reviews, a while back Private Eye (uk magazine) had an article about trustpilot, saying how bad reviews of certain companies it’s parent company owns, seem to have disappeared.

As for things like Facebook, I loath Facebook, I’m on it to keep in touch with about 20 people where I grew up. Unfortunately this has the pain of getting all Facebooks ads.

One got my attention,  a washing machine manufacturer claiming quote

“ Xyz products are all Made in England to some of the most stringent design and manufacturing standards in the world.”  They also made a huge point about how their washing machines had hot fill as well as cold fill.

Someone asked “ what percentage is made in Britain, they replied 87% is made in their own factory”

I asked them how they arrive at 87%, is it by number of pieces, weight or size etc, pointing out that the most likely thing to go wrong are the electronics, and could they confirm what percentage of the electronics are made in the UK.

I also questioned their claim that having a separate hot fill in addition to cold fill would save the average UK householder with a combi boiler any money, again politely pointing out that for many householders it can take up to a minute before hot water reaches the tap, so in many cases the boiler would be kicking in to heat water after the machine had filled up, hence wasting money not saving it.

My post was removed and I have been banned from their site
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 10:50:06 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online magic

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #160 on: May 01, 2022, 05:40:58 pm »
They didn't think it through, they were pressured to do it by the the corporate media and other big accounts, and the whitehouse who were getting ratioed to hell.
They said they hid dislike conuters to discourage downvote brigading of videos.
SJWs have always been the main victims of downvote brigading.
Google is full of SJWs.

Connect the dots, Dave. Google cares about it more (or at least as much as) the media and surely more than the White House.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #161 on: May 01, 2022, 06:06:44 pm »
The Day After The Google Video:


Saw that. Fran raises very valid points, but this is nothing new really. This has been a problem ever since 'search engines' have existed.
When the Internet started becoming popular, web sites collecting personal information started to appear - that was even before Google did it. Those web sites were dedicated to providing information on as many people as possible, without their consent, of course. Those were meant to become giant directories.
This has just gotten worse, but the idea has been around for a long time now. Causes major privacy issues.

One additional point Fran makes is the fact that Google helps sustaining some "questions" about people or facts by providing "frequenly asked questions" about the name or topic you're searching. It's one of the most idiotic (well, not for Google, of course) feature one could think of. It's about as bad as constantly pushing results of surveys about what people would vote right before an election.

Is there a way of changing that? I'm unfortunately not sure, as there are way too many interests at stake here.
 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #162 on: May 01, 2022, 09:36:37 pm »
Although its not the main function of YouTube, there is absolutely no reason that you cant set up your own YouTube vote counter, except their trademarked name.

If you call it something else.

You should try doing that. Offer a means for people to vote on web content, and get people to use it. Slice and dice and sort in different ways.
Already done for dislikes, it would just be a small tweak to track likes as well.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/return-youtube-dislikes/
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #163 on: May 02, 2022, 01:42:27 am »
They didn't think it through, they were pressured to do it by the the corporate media and other big accounts, and the whitehouse who were getting ratioed to hell.
They said they hid dislike conuters to discourage downvote brigading of videos.
SJWs have always been the main victims of downvote brigading.
Google is full of SJWs.
Connect the dots, Dave. Google cares about it more (or at least as much as) the media and surely more than the White House.

That's the public excuse, and you believed it,  :-DD
But yes, a few SJW's were also some of the complainers, which is why it was made the focus of the public excuse.
 

Online magic

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #164 on: May 02, 2022, 05:31:06 am »
Google helps sustaining some "questions" about people or facts by providing "frequenly asked questions" about the name or topic you're searching. It's one of the most idiotic (well, not for Google, of course) feature one could think of. It's about as bad as constantly pushing results of surveys about what people would vote right before an election.
99% of Google traffic is people searching for information rather than political opinion and the suggestions are fairly useful. If anything, I'm bothered by the screen estate they take when they are not :P

When I type "bipolar transistor", the suggestions are "how BJT works" or "what are BJT applications".
When I type the name of a local shopping mall, the suggestions are "what brands have their stores there" or "what are the opening hours".

For the remaining 1%, Google is very well aware of their influence and of course always working to "improve". Hence the removal of "Clinton email scandal" and similar problematic queries. I'm sure that "is public personality X a woman" fits this category, as long as the public personality is big enough for anyone to care, because lack of serious customer support and emergency-driven moderation is another hallmark of Google. The idea that they don't care about their influence is asinine, they are highly obsessed with using it to further their private interests, not only in politics but even more so in technology. It's just that they are cheap bastards too so there is only so much they can do with the drones they are willing to hire and the task is immense.

That's the public excuse, and you believed it,  :-DD
But yes, a few SJW's were also some of the complainers, which is why it was made the focus of the public excuse.
So who were the main complainers and why would they give rat's ass in the first place?
Reminder that the votes still exist, they just aren't shown to the proles.
Reminder that the algorithms are already "improved" to ignore "wrong" votes and guide the proles to "authoritative" sources.

Also, reminder that Google CFO admitted to having cried after Clinton's wife's election loss :-DD
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #165 on: May 02, 2022, 06:29:01 am »
That's the public excuse, and you believed it,  :-DD
But yes, a few SJW's were also some of the complainers, which is why it was made the focus of the public excuse.
So who were the main complainers and why would they give rat's ass in the first place?
Reminder that the votes still exist, they just aren't shown to the proles.

Yes, and they lied, it's not to protect creators, because creators still get bombarded with the dislike count every day.
 

Online magic

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #166 on: May 02, 2022, 07:12:18 am »
For the record, protecting creators' fragile egos by hiding the information from them wasn't really the official goal. The stated goal was to protect creators' fragile egos by discouraging downvote bombing in the first place, by reducing its effectiveness. And they have AB tests to "prove" that it works, or at any rate appeared to work before everyone knew what's going on, because I'm sure that if you want to troll/downrank/annoy a specific creator, you can still do it and all the trolls know it well.
https://blog.youtube/news-and-events/update-to-youtube/

<tinfoil hat on>
Whether they really believe the above or not, what I'm saying is that the downvote raids bother YT as much as they bother their big customers, because they too often affect sorts of content that YT is as much happy to promote as the legacy media, be it for political or financial reasons. They are all one nest of snakes and I doubt that much external coercion was necessary to produce this change.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #167 on: May 02, 2022, 08:34:24 am »
For the record, protecting creators' fragile egos by hiding the information from them wasn't really the official goal. The stated goal was to protect creators' fragile egos by discouraging downvote bombing in the first place, by reducing its effectiveness.

They very specifically said in the video and demonstrated it with screen shots that they were hiding away the dislike count so that creators would have to go to specifically extra effort to find it. They lied, that isn't the case as I demonstrated in my video.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #168 on: May 02, 2022, 10:40:34 am »
Now, how do we convince Google to get rid of that horrible c-slur for those of us having a traditional biological gender identity?

By c-slur, I of course mean "cis".  :'(

Words cannot express the depth of my hurt and sadness whenever I see that slur thrown around like it was nothing.
Why is it that my emotions do not matter?
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #169 on: May 02, 2022, 12:49:59 pm »
Now, how do we convince Google to get rid of that horrible c-slur for those of us having a traditional biological gender identity?

By c-slur, I of course mean "cis".  :'(

Words cannot express the depth of my hurt and sadness whenever I see that slur thrown around like it was nothing.
Why is it that my emotions do not matter?
I agree. I have to restrain myself from retaliating with another c-word.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #170 on: May 03, 2022, 12:17:41 am »
It is because the infinitesimal minority of "non-c" people that gives two hoots to categorize others this way is extremely loud, coercitive and obnoxious.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #171 on: May 03, 2022, 01:22:47 am »
Some of them are pretty loud activists indeed, but that's a very, very small minority. Those people alone wouldn't have the power to be coercitive in any way. So, while they are certainly involved, that's not were the power and interests behind it lie.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #172 on: May 03, 2022, 01:45:18 am »
Some of them are pretty loud activists indeed, but that's a very, very small minority. Those people alone wouldn't have the power to be coercitive in any way. So, while they are certainly involved, that's not were the power and interests behind it lie.
Long term studies of the effectiveness of movements says you only need about 3% of people pushing an agenda, and the rest of the population may cave. People see a substantial group, and think it represents a broadly held view. However, they may be looking at hundreds, while the country has a population of 10s of millions.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #173 on: May 03, 2022, 02:56:03 am »
Do you mean like how a certain global hegemon promoted a divide and conquer ethos in the last century.. except now?  Because thats what I find particularly irksome.. I see that as happening. Unnecessarily dividing people.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 02:58:29 am by cdev »
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #174 on: May 03, 2022, 07:07:59 am »
Some of them are pretty loud activists indeed, but that's a very, very small minority. Those people alone wouldn't have the power to be coercitive in any way. So, while they are certainly involved, that's not were the power and interests behind it lie.
Long term studies of the effectiveness of movements says you only need about 3% of people pushing an agenda, and the rest of the population may cave. People see a substantial group, and think it represents a broadly held view. However, they may be looking at hundreds, while the country has a population of 10s of millions.
Another problem is, it's impossible to tell how many are really people are really trans and how many are cross-dressers. The two get conflated these days and many of the latter become convinced they're really trans.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #175 on: May 03, 2022, 07:55:43 am »
No, the true problem is that we are assigning huge importance in the perceived emotive content of words, and as a result, require global control of such "bad words", making free speech impossible and unattainable.

If we allow individual words to become weapons, we force ourselves to live in a warzone, a minefield.  Language is the best tool we have to interact with each other, and it is frail and error-prone enough already; any attempt to weaponize it further horrifies me.

I so wish Fran had taken a different approach in her video.  Instead of pointing out "transvestite" is a slur, I wish she had pointed out that "transvestite" and "transgender" are completely different things, and that people confusing the two shows how people really do not understand the underlying things at all; things that are very close to the core of many people, and thus rather important.  And, then, that many consider "transvestite" a slur –– could be because so many people misuse the terms –– and prefer the term "cross-dresser" instead.  (Perhaps point out that cross-dressing has a rather long history, and isn't necessarily coupled with sexuality at all.)  And then described her own experience to whatever degree she finds necessary; but most importantly, showing that it is a natural part of her and her history, not something to be ashamed about or scared of having others know.

Why do I wish that?  Because you cannot achieve lasting change by telling people they are evil if they use 'slurs'.  You need to first show there is nothing dark or wrong in the terms themselves, and then explain what they actually mean.  Instead of priming them as mines, you need to defuse them.

As an example, consider the following.  Many human societies have tales of evil beings living in water, and dragging unwary children to their death.  These are often used by parents as an easy way to keep their children from going into the water without adult supervision.  However, such tales also mean a lot of children don't want to learn to swim, because of the fear.  The end result is that using such tales with the intent of protecting children, can actually result in more child deaths due drowning.  Using such tales –– or saying that a specific word is a slur and anyone using it should be excluded from polite society –– causes more harm than good.
It is easy, and therefore very enticing as a tool to make one feel safer, but in the end, it does more harm than good, overall.

If human languages are forced to become a primed minefield, then I do sincirely believe that letting those minefields blow up on their primers' faces as early as possible is the least harmful outcome of the entire mess.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 07:59:49 am by Nominal Animal »
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #176 on: May 03, 2022, 08:26:20 am »
No, the true problem is that we are assigning huge importance in the perceived emotive content of words, and as a result, require global control of such "bad words", making free speech impossible and unattainable.

If we allow individual words to become weapons, we force ourselves to live in a warzone, a minefield.  Language is the best tool we have to interact with each other, and it is frail and error-prone enough already; any attempt to weaponize it further horrifies me.

I so wish Fran had taken a different approach in her video.  Instead of pointing out "transvestite" is a slur, I wish she had pointed out that "transvestite" and "transgender" are completely different things, and that people confusing the two shows how people really do not understand the underlying things at all; things that are very close to the core of many people, and thus rather important.  And, then, that many consider "transvestite" a slur –– could be because so many people misuse the terms –– and prefer the term "cross-dresser" instead.  (Perhaps point out that cross-dressing has a rather long history, and isn't necessarily coupled with sexuality at all.)  And then described her own experience to whatever degree she finds necessary; but most importantly, showing that it is a natural part of her and her history, not something to be ashamed about or scared of having others know.

Why do I wish that?  Because you cannot achieve lasting change by telling people they are evil if they use 'slurs'.  You need to first show there is nothing dark or wrong in the terms themselves, and then explain what they actually mean.  Instead of priming them as mines, you need to defuse them.

As an example, consider the following.  Many human societies have tales of evil beings living in water, and dragging unwary children to their death.  These are often used by parents as an easy way to keep their children from going into the water without adult supervision.  However, such tales also mean a lot of children don't want to learn to swim, because of the fear.  The end result is that using such tales with the intent of protecting children, can actually result in more child deaths due drowning.  Using such tales –– or saying that a specific word is a slur and anyone using it should be excluded from polite society –– causes more harm than good.
It is easy, and therefore very enticing as a tool to make one feel safer, but in the end, it does more harm than good, overall.

If human languages are forced to become a primed minefield, then I do sincirely believe that letting those minefields blow up on their primers' faces as early as possible is the least harmful outcome of the entire mess.
What I was alluding to was that the confusion between transgender and cross-dressing is an important one, with real world implications.

What happens if Fran does something illegal, as a result of money troubles? Which prison does she go do? She's biologically male, so perhaps a male prison? The problem is she would be more vulnerable to being bullied and sexually assaulted, so perhaps a female prison is more appropriate. That's fine, but then what about male sex offender who claims he's trans, dresses as a women and sexually assaults women in female toilets? If the law is applied equally, then he would be sent to a female prison, where he can have a rape fest.

The obvious solution to the above is to individually assess prisoners, taking into account psychological reports and what treatment/surgery he or she has had. The problem is this doesn't happen. There have been instances of men who claim to be women, in female prisons assaulting female prisoners.

The points you raise above, are part of the problem. If certain words are too offensive, then it's not possible to debate the matter rationally.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #177 on: May 03, 2022, 08:46:07 am »
That's fine, but then what about male sex offender who claims he's trans, dresses as a women and sexually assaults women in female toilets? If the law is applied equally, then he would be sent to a female prison, where he can have a rape fest.
Already happened in UK. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10406351/I-sexually-assaulted-transgender-rapist-womens-jail.html
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #178 on: May 03, 2022, 08:52:00 am »
What I was alluding to was that the confusion between transgender and cross-dressing is an important one, with real world implications.
True, and I do agree.  I just think that defusing that via a positive explanation would have been a much better approach.  As it is, primarily pointing out "transvestite" is considered a slur, and secondarily pointing out the two are completely different things, might help Fran herself, but overall, it is pushing the way us humans communicate with each other in a harmful direction.

The obvious solution to the above is to individually assess prisoners
Yes!

I've mentioned before, that some of my own faults are such that I just do not perceive the kind of things that others do.  For example, I have absolutely no "gaydar".  Several times, I've been asked whether someone I interacted with was male or female, and I realized I didn't notice.  Yes, it does mean I do some real silly goofs every now and then, but in face-to-face discussion it hasn't been a problem: I am easy to read, and try hard to honestly admit my errors; me stammering an apology with my face firetruck red when my gaffes are pointed out to me, seems to almost always defuse the situation through friendly laughter.  Online, it is a problem.

To me, everyone I meet and interact is an individual first.  Their gender and opinions are just attributes that matter much less to me than their interaction with me and others.  By requiring more complex patterns of social interaction – like remembering what words to use with which individual, without any internally consistent logic – I will be excluded from interactions.  I already see online how groups are becoming more insular, deliberately avoiding communicating with outside the group to keep themselves safe and reduce the cognitive load of social interactions.  This reduces interactions, and is definitely not good.

The next time you try to report a bug or suggest a patch to some software project, note who and how you are responded to.  It is no longer like to a peer (like it used to be when the web was new), but more like to a possible IED.  It is safer to mark, ignore and avoid, than to interact.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #179 on: May 03, 2022, 09:57:24 am »
I didn't know Big Clive is gay and I don't care. I watch Fran's videos and couldn't give a toss about he being trans.

The problem is there is extremist LGBT content is allowed, if not even encouraged by social media.
I feel the need to point out that this is absolutely untrue.

Age inappropriate content is being pushed onto children.
If by that you mean “depictions of LGBT people doing the same things cis/hetero people do, like having families and buying groceries”, then yes.

I'm all for teaching children to be tolerant of minorities, but despise radical trans activists who glorify gender dysphoria.
No, what they’re saying is to be accepting of those who suspect they may have gender dysphoria.

There have been too many cases of vulnerable children and adolescents who have been convinced they're trans by manipulative people and undergone life changing medical treatments as a result.
I’ve never heard of even one such case. What there have been is cases where children who were either intersex or whose privates had been damaged were then, upon doctor’s advice, raised as the opposite sex, with disastrous results.

But nobody is pushing gender reassignment on people who didn’t want it. This is precisely why gender reassignment requires extensive, long-term psychological evaluation first. It’s also why using hormone blockers to delay puberty is incredibly smart: you can delay the development of gender-specific physiology until the individual is absolutely certain of what they are.

Many trans activists aren't really transgender, but male transvestites, who want to use women's spaces.
Complete nonsense.

A women was raped in hospital recently, because a man who identified as female was allowed on a women's ward.

There’s a better word for that man: sexual predator. But being a predator has little to do with trans issues, and a whole lot to do with predation issues.

It’s also entirely possible, if rare, for both to be the true simultaneously — a pre-op trans woman can still be a sexual predator.

But let’s not lose sight of the fact that the number of cases of predatory men pretending to be trans women in order to gain access to victims is vanishingly small. In contrast, the number of trans women murdered every single year is shocking. And that’s in addition to all the other abuses and indignities they have to endure on a daily basis.

It’s absolutely abhorrent to throw all trans women under the bus to prevent a nearly nonexistent threat. Not to mention that it’s categorically impossible to protect women from predators at all times. If the predators can’t gain access one way, they’ll just find some other way to find victims, unfortunately.

What's worse is the police didn't believe her, because the hospital staff have been told to deny there was a man on the ward. I hope the policy is changed and the staff are prosecuted for wasting police time and perverting the course of justice: following orders is no defense!
How would you propose to even do this? It’s the same problem as the anti-trans bathroom bills in some US states: how do you enforce it? Genitalia inspections for everyone? Or just the ones who don’t look feminine enough? (We already have had cases of tomboyish cisgender women having the cops called on them for trying to use the ladies’ room.)

The correct thing to do is to act on predatory behavior, rather than impose draconian rules that single-out an already vulnerable population, all to protect against a threat that is 99.999% imaginary.
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #180 on: May 03, 2022, 10:35:37 am »
The correct thing to do is to act on predatory behavior, rather than impose draconian rules
I fully agree.  And to do that, we need to examine humans as individuals, not as representatives of any groups; and instead of setting arbitrary rules about specific words getting people in trouble, we need to look at what they are saying.

I believe Fran's intentions were and are positive.  It's just that like with the stories scaring kids away from water, the easy and immediately effective way (pointing out "bad word" as the actionable thing) can in the long term cause more harm than good.

The fact that that kind of details pop up on Google shows that that kind of misunderstanding is common.  I claim we cannot fix those misunderstandings by forcing any kind of language; I claim only truly free and honest speech can do that.  Humans are just drawn to the easy short-term solutions, because the long term ones require more effort from themselves; it is so much easier to just demand that everyone else do the work instead.
 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #181 on: May 03, 2022, 10:45:19 am »
I'm triggered.
You seem to have forgotten the reason why women are given separate spaces from men: to make them feel more comfortable and protect them against predators. Yes it's true, it doesn't stop predators, but it helps. The hospital simply noting the person's genitalia and putting him on a male ward, irrespective of how he identifies, would have solved the problem. If he'd had gender reassignment surgery, then no problem, put him on a female ward.

The problem is throwing women under the bus, in order to protect the tiny proportion of transwomen. Men simply declaring they're women, in order to gain access to women's spaces is increasingly becoming a problem. What's to stop any pervert wearing a dress and going into a women's changing room? When I used to go to nightclubs, the security would eject anyone who did such a thing. Nowadays it they'd sue for discrimination.

There are numerous videos of misogynistic "transwomen" on Tiktok calling women all sorts of nasty words, because they've been called out for going into women's spaces.  I don't mind men dressing as women, wanting to be referred to as she and her. If they want to have surgery, to remove they're genitalia, that's fine too, but if a chick with a dick, were to go into a changing room when my mum, a girlfriend, or sister, were in there, whilst I was waiting outside. I'd go in there, drag him out by the balls. Fuck the consequences. Women should be protected from that, fuck the rights of men who act like that!

I used to think puberty blockers were a good idea, but have completely reversed my view. There isn't sufficient medical evidence to support them and their long term effects are unknown. There's an increasing number of detransitioners who have been sold into the transitioning by bad actors on social media. There isn't enough protection against this. A women is currently suing the National Health Service, for wrongly giving her surgery and medication, when counseling would have probably convinced her she's a women and no trans. A big problem is they're accused of transphobia for telling their stories.

I'm fine with children being made aware of gender dysphoria, in an age appropriate manner, but there are too many cases of teachers indoctrinating young children in radical gender theory. A big problem is children are encouraged to question their sex, because they don't fit stereotypical male or female traits. My sister was a tomboy, when she was younger and now many girls who are like that are led to believe they're nonbinary, or worse trans. I was never into football and developed a love for flowers, at one point, which some might no see as an indication of being trans, yet no, I'm a straight man.

Many of your views mirror mine, a couple of years ago. I suggest you do some real research and get back to me.

That's fine, but then what about male sex offender who claims he's trans, dresses as a women and sexually assaults women in female toilets? If the law is applied equally, then he would be sent to a female prison, where he can have a rape fest.
Already happened in UK. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10406351/I-sexually-assaulted-transgender-rapist-womens-jail.html
That doesn't surprise me. A similar incident occurred in hospital, which I referred to in another post. It's easy to find the article, so I won't post a link.
The correct thing to do is to act on predatory behavior, rather than impose draconian rules
I fully agree.  And to do that, we need to examine humans as individuals, not as representatives of any groups; and instead of setting arbitrary rules about specific words getting people in trouble, we need to look at what they are saying.

I believe Fran's intentions were and are positive.  It's just that like with the stories scaring kids away from water, the easy and immediately effective way (pointing out "bad word" as the actionable thing) can in the long term cause more harm than good.

The fact that that kind of details pop up on Google shows that that kind of misunderstanding is common.  I claim we cannot fix those misunderstandings by forcing any kind of language; I claim only truly free and honest speech can do that.  Humans are just drawn to the easy short-term solutions, because the long term ones require more effort from themselves; it is so much easier to just demand that everyone else do the work instead.
That is the only way to deal with this. It would also help to deal with the problem I mentioned above, of predatory men in womenface.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 10:59:22 am by Zero999 »
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #182 on: May 03, 2022, 10:57:20 am »
Some of them are pretty loud activists indeed, but that's a very, very small minority. Those people alone wouldn't have the power to be coercitive in any way. So, while they are certainly involved, that's not were the power and interests behind it lie.
The small fringe minority was able to grow in numbers to a significant point through the megaphone of the internet - it really snowballed.

IIRC, this cultural change started to take shape publicly through gamergate, where the tactics of shaming others based on the use of their words was tested in a broader arena and, since it was present in a large community (gamers) and with a young generation (more open to new ideas), it was able to grow roots in this part of the society. Companies catering to the younger generation started to pay attention and started to self-censor themselves, while this was mostly ignored by the rest of the industry and media (despite still being active in Twitter). However, once the scholars with the proper background in Critical Theory were able to connect the shaming tactics with their "proper" theoretical foundation, the media companies started to pay attention (by inviting them to speak at their bobblehead segments) and, being in an audience crisis themselves, did not want to lose the chance to cater to the young audiences. Once it hits *that* powerful megaphone, no containment is possible.

Never let a good crisis go to waste.

(I might have forgotten a detail or two, but all this happened in the past eight or nine years only).
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Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #183 on: May 03, 2022, 04:27:28 pm »
The small fringe minority was able to grow in numbers to a significant point through the megaphone of the internet - it really snowballed.
Loud people don't get gather support. They cower the meek into submission. We seem to live in times where things have been so easy for so many that most people are meek enough to submit.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #184 on: May 03, 2022, 04:55:57 pm »
See "The Problem of Social Cost" by Coase,
https://www.law.uchicago.edu/files/file/coase-problem.pdf

Thats the underlying explanation for a great many things..Its a very big and important change in things . Profit is much more important now. It was always important but now everything reevolves around it, legally.

There used to be moral scruples that sometimes contradicted the corporate logic. Many people dont know there has been this sea change.. and a lot of effort seems to go into hiding this change. Why? A few people have said words to me about this change and the hiding of the Trilemma as some call it.

Dani Rodrik (Articulate Harvard economist) is credited for it but it was around, as it was well known to economists and others in the 1990s long before his paper..
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 05:08:44 pm by cdev »
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Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #185 on: May 03, 2022, 05:09:23 pm »
A women was raped in hospital recently, because a man who identified as female was allowed on a women's ward.

There’s a better word for that man: sexual predator. But being a predator has little to do with trans issues, and a whole lot to do with predation issues.
You said a lot of nonsense, without supporting any of it, but let's take this as an example. Most people have great sympathy with the plight of anyone who doesn't fit in, whatever the reason might be. This shouldn't be suprising. None of us fit in 100%. I've spent my life like a fish out of water. Even most of those who make snide remarks about outsiders will support their right to be themselves. I've met few people who are genuinely hostile to the issues of someone who doesn't fit in sexually, unless the reason they don't fit in is predatory. 40 years ago I knew several trans-sexuals, when society was much less accommodating of anyone out of the ordinary. Their dearest wish was to just fit in and be accepted living the way they felt comfortable. They didn't stand up and scream that everyone else had to adapt to them, because they were trying to hard to keep a low profile and fit in. If their physique made it easy fort them to pass themselves off as the opposite gender they had a reasonably smooth path. If they were, say, a huge burly male trying to pass as a women life could be hard. That's true for anyone who stands out. Life for anyone who is exceptionally something - tall, short, fat, thin, etc - has issues. One trans-sexual was hired where I worked in the 1970s. Both the women and men there had issues with this person using their toilets, and the individual sympathised with their views. The company built a separate toilet for them, so nobody had a reason to feel uncomfortable about the issue. Later, that toilet was replaced with an oversized one that could accommodate disabled people as well, and became an anyone's toilet. I suspect they only expanded that toilet for the disabled under external pressure, but they accommodated the trans-sexual themselves. Businesses and communities generally seemed ready to spend significant resources to help.

Now we have a situation where people are claiming that anyone who says they are something needs to be fully accepted as that something. Their honesty is accepted without question, which is weird, since we know humans lie a lot. Not just to others, but to themselves too. They don't need to make any real commitment to their new role. They don't need to do anything more than dress up. They can even be a man wearing a beard dressed as a woman, and we are expected to take them seriously as someone who was born a woman. Activists try to push the jaggedly shaped peg of a complex person into a round hole, because their view of humans is quite shallow, and any dishonest actor has a field day in a situation like that. So, we see an increasing number of cases of girls and women abused and raped in women's spaces  by dishonest actors, and by people who are probably just too complex to fit into a pure male or female mould.

So, you are right. Predation is the problem. Why do you support an environment where predators can have a great time? Why is letting people dressing as women, but acting male, into women's spaces in hospitals, prisons, and schools a good idea?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #186 on: May 03, 2022, 05:15:53 pm »
Long term studies of the effectiveness of movements says you only need about 3% of people pushing an agenda, and the rest of the population may cave. People see a substantial group, and think it represents a broadly held view. However, they may be looking at hundreds, while the country has a population of 10s of millions.

Social media greatly amplifies this effect I think. It allows people to exist almost entirely within curated echo chambers of like minded people. That becomes their whole world as any dissenting views are expelled and soon they perceive that as the views of the population as a whole.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #187 on: May 03, 2022, 05:41:01 pm »
Duck Duck Go is actually using Google for its searches.

I think a lot has to do with keeping Google profitable. They have to be kept profitable. Just like health insurance companies have to be kept profitable or politicians might find themselves responsible for a disfunctional healthcare system.
The problem is that the entire concept of the web is broken.

Back before the the current web (HTTP, HTML) there was SGML which was a concept that was intended to semantically mark up content according not to the way it should be DISPLAYED but also and instead according to the USE and MEANING of the content.
Right now the entire core of HTML is based around the mostly useless ways of defining that this bit is BOLD and this bit is UNDERLINED and this bit BLINKs and this bit is in this font size etc.    HTML is not logical its basically just a hack thats used for formatting when it shouldnt be. Markup could and sometimes is used as logical markup but it rarely is.

But thats not the main issue.. If search engines returned results to queries in some logical markup it would be much easier to screen scrape  the web.  But they dont, because they are all competing with one another, perhaps.
-----------------
Its been this way for decades..

HTML is actually a variant of SGML which I think was originally used in Linotype machines, which I first saw in the 1970s.. (but without inks) They worked.. They were used for laying out pages in newspapers.. similarly to how web browsers work today..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Semantically in the current web there is basically zero "structure" and "meaning" to the content other than there's text and there's fonts and there's text formatting and there are display styles.

Theres even a BLINK tag..  hehehe..  remember the blink squirrels?




So if I create a web page with say the following content (as a trivial example), there's nothing indicating to a reader or a "search engine" what the actual semantic meaning and relevance of my page is.  Is it fiction?  Is it biography?  Is it history?  Is it about Maxewell or is it about Newton (both of whom are mentioned an equal number of times)?  Is it about physics?  Is it about electronics?  Is it opinion?  Is it fact?  When was it written?  What is the temporal relevance of it?  What relationship does it have to other publications / references / people?

----


There are "standardsds for fact verifications, which is one pressing need, but thgey would rather there was no solution, even though it would be a straightforward solution.. but they arent used.. by Google at least. There is Dublin Core..which is as good as it gets.. which can be used to label the most common needed additional attributes.. a name-value datastore..

There are multiple bibliographic database formats.. Something else - having to do with a global shift to corporations is going on. 100% corporate owned, so there isnt any democratic accountability. So it is controllable by the wealthy is a primary concern for example, look at the goals of the WEF.. very undemocratic..and out of the public domain.. They really wish that there was no "public domain" Who owns it? Not them? Who owns information like the facts..
?

Like laws?

Quote
James Clerk Maxwell FRSE FRS (13 June 1831 – 5 November 1879) was a Scottish mathematician[1][2] and scientist responsible for the classical theory of electromagnetic radiation, which was the first theory to describe electricity, magnetism and light as different manifestations of the same phenomenon. Maxwell's equations for electromagnetism have been called the "second great unification in physics"[3] where the first one had been realised by Isaac Newton.


Even in elementary school they teach everyone to use citations to references, include bibliographic information, etc. but even the most basic semantic relationships aren't "on the web".

What we need in the future isn't some tech-giant "search engine" that censors and filters and monetizes and spies on people's requests for information and which tries to handle the unscalable and insurmountable task of spidering and reverse engineering the "meaning" and "content" of the whole internet.

What we need is what has existed for LONG before the internet -- LIBRARY SCIENCE.

Agreed but they want that to be controllable, which means it cant be public? Everything has to be tiered, students must be in private schools., databases must be tiered.. Buy or die.. Information. Rich kids pouring the Kool Aid.. or losing out.. Because they didnt pay for everything.

Whose library. Since there are commercial libraries, we cant have them be public.. Like I grew up going to a free public library...

That may no longer be legal for WTO members.. Because it violates Article 1:3 of the GATS for them to give anything away.
In 1950 I could walk into any library, zero computers involved, use their "search tool" (card catalog, indices, bibliographies, encyclopedias, et. al.) and within minutes find content possibly including a search domain of a lot of the sum of human knowledge in published form.   I wouldn't get waylaid in my search by advertisements for pizza and soda.  I wouldn't search for one thing and get something totally different as a result.  I got what I was looking for, and 64 layers of governments, ad networks, tech giants, etc. didn't get to intercept / censor my search, either.

So in a meaningful way "search" in 1960 was better than search today because the web is a steaming pile of unorganized spaghetti filled with blinking ads and animations and dancing monkeys and cat gifs and ads for impotence pills instead of what most of us actually wanted -- THE INFORMATION WE'RE LOOKING FOR. 

Which is by way of example why all the "search engines" should vanish, and the "browser makers", too, and even the way the content creation tools work, and the formats information is stored in.

Librarians know this.  Web developers and "internet platforms" don't know or worse don't care.

Why have this great trove of the sum of human publication online if one can't find anything in it?  Why waste millions of man-years every single year with "click here for the next 10 results" and captchas and banner ads etc. etc. instead of a meaningful way to more automatically, richly, and sustainably find and utilize content.

Right now there's probably some bit of knowledge that would actually save your life or at least massively improve it. 


Then they insist that it be very very expensive.. like a drug that might be as simple as salt but might save your life.. They want to turn it into your next commercial product, if you have the money, you can live longer.

Everything has to be or become a commercial product...You cant have unlicensed information saving lives without money... People learne all these things for free.. They want to stamp out free science..

But you probably don't even know it exists, or if you do, maybe you'll never even find it because of the disorganized mess the internet is.  Searching through exabytes of information is a great commercial product. Actually some people hate the way it is today.. They are doing all this stuff to lock it up.

A job for a librarian to find what you want.  But therey have to be young and stupid.
It is not a great job for our slow wet little brains that can only look at one thing per second or so or whom remember how to think logically.. 

But to make the necessary AI automation work people have to realize that content shouldn't be created in form encoded for free human interaction, it should all be created for machine processing and semantic analysis and semantic search.  Then the important bits can be automatically or manually interpreted and evaluated rather than the "click here for the next 10 results" nonsense.

The internet is a vast landfill with trash piled on unorganized in ever deeper layers which not even an archaeologist can sort out to find meaning or location of anything.  Whereas we invented the database and the index 50+ years ago and yet we don't even use that minimal level of technology in any sane scalable form as well as an old card catalog does on the metadata / semantic content while creating the future of human knowledge.


Whres the profit in that? Why do some people get better?

So while looking for ways to "tear down" the internet, and commercialize everything involving knowledge  think about creating what you really want / need and don't stop at youtube or google or html or ad networks, keep going until it becomes a tool FOR you instead of AGAINST you.

But Google is a lot less progressive than some people seem to be fooled into thinking.. Look at how their biggest customers are the defense industry, and other corporations.. and the government.. And the ad industry..Which has always been kind of sleazy.. I know, I used to be in it...according to them.



Quote
Sometimes they too useful but hopefully other search engines will never exist and wont catch up. Free information is already out of control.
...
No it's a pile of crap that does not return the same quality of results, theres another one that claims to plant trees with the proceeds and uses bing, that can't find what is in front of it.



These big companies are trying to commercialize (by stealing) other peoples work and sell advrtising to see it. People naturally behave in certain ways because we are social beings, big corporations are tring to steal the value from normal peoples efforts to participate in online communities and prevent poor people from somehow becoming rich. Without formal credentials.. The jopbs are supposed to go to the rich people, all around the world.. not the poor people.  This is one of the worst things some companies do. They are consciously trying to lower he value of labor.. Of course they do it because they want to pay lesss, and all big companies do.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 10:42:40 pm by cdev »
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Offline YurkshireLad

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #188 on: May 03, 2022, 05:43:08 pm »
I thought DuckDuckGo uses Bing? Or did they switch?
 
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Offline eugene

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #189 on: May 03, 2022, 05:53:45 pm »
[...] we see an increasing number of cases of girls and women abused and raped in women's spaces  by dishonest actors, and by people who are probably just too complex to fit into a pure male or female mould.

You might be right, but I'd need evidence before I repeat the claim, and I doubt that evidence exists. True or not, I strongly doubt that anyone has kept accurate records allowing a before and after comparison.

Bottom line: just don't make the claim unless you can back it up.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 
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Offline madires

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #190 on: May 03, 2022, 05:58:56 pm »
Duck Duck Go is actually using Google for its searches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuckDuckGo#Search_results:
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DuckDuckGo's results are a compilation of "over 400" sources, including Yahoo! Search BOSS, Wolfram Alpha, Bing, Yandex, its own web crawler (the DuckDuckBot) and others.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #191 on: May 03, 2022, 06:03:14 pm »
Some of them are pretty loud activists indeed, but that's a very, very small minority. Those people alone wouldn't have the power to be coercitive in any way. So, while they are certainly involved, that's not were the power and interests behind it lie.
Long term studies of the effectiveness of movements says you only need about 3% of people pushing an agenda, and the rest of the population may cave. People see a substantial group, and think it represents a broadly held view. However, they may be looking at hundreds, while the country has a population of 10s of millions.

Yeah. Well, all those sociology studies are a gold mine... ahem. But I doubt there's even 3% of those people in the population anyway.
No, those people are not "loud" (but, certainly not "powerful") enough by themselves to have their way without external help. That's just bullshit IMHO.
Their activism is getting artifically amplified by policies of social networks and media, and that's what makes the whole thing look more and more "normal" to the whole population. But I'm sorry, I do not think in the least that those networks and media do it BECAUSE that's what the population wants to hear. They do it because they have their own agenda, and THEN it progressively gets inside people's minds.

 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #192 on: May 03, 2022, 06:28:27 pm »
Quote
Otherwise, people could just vote whatever they wanted to happen.

Very unlikely, unfortunately. Or perhaps luckily, given what some people want!

The problem is you can't vote for a single thing. Well, you can, but doing so drags along several pages full of other manifesto commitments, many of which you might prefer to vote against in preference to the thing you want to vote for.

There is also the small problem of not being able to vote for something that isn't on offer. If, for instance, neither of the main parties in the UK say they will ban excessive profits from motorway service stations then no-one will be able to vote for that regardless of who they align behind.

As long as you are a stakeholder. Lobbying is out of control, at least I think so.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 06:30:06 pm by cdev »
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Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #193 on: May 03, 2022, 07:06:48 pm »
Some of them are pretty loud activists indeed, but that's a very, very small minority. Those people alone wouldn't have the power to be coercitive in any way. So, while they are certainly involved, that's not were the power and interests behind it lie.
Long term studies of the effectiveness of movements says you only need about 3% of people pushing an agenda, and the rest of the population may cave. People see a substantial group, and think it represents a broadly held view. However, they may be looking at hundreds, while the country has a population of 10s of millions.

Yeah. Well, all those sociology studies are a gold mine... ahem. But I doubt there's even 3% of those people in the population anyway.
No, those people are not "loud" (but, certainly not "powerful") enough by themselves to have their way without external help. That's just bullshit IMHO.
Their activism is getting artifically amplified by policies of social networks and media, and that's what makes the whole thing look more and more "normal" to the whole population. But I'm sorry, I do not think in the least that those networks and media do it BECAUSE that's what the population wants to hear. They do it because they have their own agenda, and THEN it progressively gets inside people's minds.
While activists corrupt research, things like that 3% figure cut both ways for them. If its as low as 3% it encourages the flock to push hard. If its as low as 3% is badly hurts their credibility with everyone else. So, which way are you going to corrupt the outcome of your research?

 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #194 on: May 03, 2022, 09:52:00 pm »
Corporations dont make good overseeers of many things, because they invariably prioritize money above all else. Not always, but fairly often sometimes this results in real disasters.. Like in the 90s with AIDS drugs which ended up in the deaths of 30 million african children from HIV, after a cure had been found..  They should have just given those drugs to doctors to distribute to sick people.. Eventually they did but only after years of bad decisions.. and greed.

And they still havent forgiven anybody for what was done, and now they are determined to not let the "historic opportunity be "wasted".. They want to make a killing off of COVID.. Some really do, they still do and its horrible.. How could anybody be so ignorant of common sense?

During epidemics of that kind its really a crime to profiteer of of sick people in he way the drug companies do. If you want to know the story see the award winning 2013 film Fire in the Blood by Dylan Mohan Grey..Or read the book Genocide By Denial, which is a very well written truly gripping book by an African doctor who was really on the front lines of the HIV epidemic.. Is pretty interesting.. and the book is free, although its hard to find..

In the case of several tech companies they really owe their success to the high quality free software which underlies their product.. more than anythingt else.. They should nbe more open about that..
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 10:04:13 pm by cdev »
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #195 on: May 03, 2022, 10:20:10 pm »

These companies are trying to influence the world to fit their desires. Its not a good situation because its very coercive. Things could be a great deal better if people joined together to actually promote optimal outcomes. Which right now its not, in fact its the opposite, IMHO its in many ways the worst possible outcomes. Ive lost track of how many folks I grew up who have died of what should be cure-able cancers.. People here often don't go to the doctor when they should because of fear of the cost...Here they are spending $10,000 or more per year on health insurance and they don't even use it..
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 10:28:19 pm by cdev »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #196 on: May 03, 2022, 10:24:10 pm »
I'm triggered.
You seem to have forgotten the reason why women are given separate spaces from men: to make them feel more comfortable and protect them against predators. Yes it's true, it doesn't stop predators, but it helps. The hospital simply noting the person's genitalia and putting him on a male ward, irrespective of how he identifies, would have solved the problem. If he'd had gender reassignment surgery, then no problem, put him on a female ward.
I don't see how the latter would make anything different. In the end gender and sexual orientation are just superficial. There will always be people that harrass other people and gender has nothing to do with that. IOW: you are seeing a cause and effect relation that doesn't exist / are jumping to the wrong conclusions.

Let me tell you that women have said things to me that would earn me a slap in the face if I'd said those things to a woman. I felt flattered though (I do look good  8) ).

Their activism is getting artifically amplified by policies of social networks and media, and that's what makes the whole thing look more and more "normal" to the whole population. But I'm sorry, I do not think in the least that those networks and media do it BECAUSE that's what the population wants to hear. They do it because they have their own agenda, and THEN it progressively gets inside people's minds.
That is what I call a 'Trumpism'. Usefull information gets lost in the noise and reliable sources are being discredited. It seems to work well on you.

Fortunately social media and regular media start to see that they have a responsibility for removing false information or at least tagging information as not being verified / necessarily true.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 10:34:32 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #197 on: May 03, 2022, 10:52:51 pm »
The government has its own private in house Google.. (network search boxen) As do many other entities.

They also have their own malls, and other stores. etc. This is a well known fact. Its used by government employees..

This should not be the case.. Its out of control..wrong.. filled with fake news? I dont think we know..

but this kind of creation of an unaccountable parallel Internet is scary..; and wrong, IMHO.

Nomenklatura was the word in Russia for it.. .. or the annointed ones.. the named members of the elite.. its always creepy.. when its done..  They accused others, dissidents of insanity but it was (and remains) Russia's government that was attempting to become a law onto itself and in retrospect was going insane..

I have a healthy mistrust of and distaste for government by and of corporations..which I feel are amoral. They dont own the world. They made it up, their ownership.. we never voted for that.

Their agreements set up immopral unconscionable unaccountable government of them, of for and by them. alone.
Google doesnt care about any of us or anything besides themselves, as far as I can tell.. They dont care about the things they claim matter to them, thats just a cover up of what they are doing which has been exposed as a sham.. I'm a bit afraid, I do admit it that with certain oither shams exposed the country and the corporate gobbledegook could implode..
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 01:23:10 am by cdev »
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Offline eugene

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #198 on: May 03, 2022, 11:21:48 pm »
CDEV, you're completely out of control. I honestly feel bad for you; living in constant fear of, well apparently everything, must be exhausting at best and probably much worse.

Seriously, you need to take care of yourself.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #199 on: May 04, 2022, 12:34:33 am »
The government
--- cut - stuff ---

Is everything alright ?

You seem to be making quite a lot of, posts. Which seem to be worried about the Government and stuff.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #200 on: May 04, 2022, 01:25:02 am »
CDEV, you're completely out of control. I honestly feel bad for you; living in constant fear of, well apparently everything, must be exhausting at best and probably much worse.

Seriously, you need to take care of yourself.

I'm fine and I think I'm being fairly lucid.. Do you understand what I have said, and what I havent said.. (anything unclear)
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #201 on: May 04, 2022, 01:29:11 am »
The government
--- cut - stuff ---

Is everything alright ?

You seem to be making quite a lot of, posts. Which seem to be worried about the Government and stuff.

Are you okay?
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #202 on: May 04, 2022, 01:29:58 am »
 

Offline eugene

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #203 on: May 04, 2022, 02:22:41 am »
CDEV, you're completely out of control. I honestly feel bad for you; living in constant fear of, well apparently everything, must be exhausting at best and probably much worse.

Seriously, you need to take care of yourself.

I'm fine and I think I'm being fairly lucid.. Do you understand what I have said, and what I havent said.. (anything unclear)

I think I understood both what you said and what you didn't say.

Good talk. Good talk.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #204 on: May 04, 2022, 05:13:24 am »
Fortunately social media and regular media start to see that they have a responsibility for removing false information
That is utterly sick and twisted.

Journalists are not supposed to be the guardians of truth!  They are not the watchdogs of the population, they are the watchdogs of the powers that be!

God dammit I utterly, utterly despise the idea of information providers limiting access to information based on what they believe to be true or factual.  It is not their right, nor their responsibility.

or at least tagging information as not being verified
Now that is perfectly reasonable, and something any respectable journalist always does.  I agree.

or at least tagging information as not being true
Do you not realize that those you demand should limit others' access to information are just as fallible as everyone else?

Think of the situation where 98% of those working at the media you can access easily were Trumpists.  Would you feel okay accepting their definition of truth as your own?

Hell, regardless of what kind of political views those people have, why on Earth would you accept their definition of truth as your own anyway?
Or is it that you are comfortably stuck with your own views that no data can shake, and you're worried about what other people might consider to be the truth, and limit that?

Anyone can set up an "intelligence-gathering outfit" in their Mom's garage like Bellingcat, and construct a circle of actors to provide enough references to make any kind of claim and label it "true" by referring to each other.  That's how most "fact checkers" work.

What I want, is everybody to acknowledge that they never, ever have all the facts.  It is not the purpose nor the right of a news house or social media to limit the exchange of information, especially to some arbitrarily politically defined subset they deem "true".  (Especially since in the last few years, quite a few of the "conspiracy theories" from Trump's election being a result of Russian manipulation, to Hunter Biden's laptop and its damning evidence of the Biden family money-for-power politics, have now been shown to be factual, contrary to what majority of media insisted at the time.  Fact is, no pun intended, that "fact checking" has nothing to do with verifiable facts, and everything to do with selecting which sources one wants to believe.)

Tagging is fine.  Removing or region-restricting illegal content is fine.  (It's up to the local population to decide what they consider illegal, in my opinion.)
But handing anyone the right to deem information as "not for the population to see or discuss" because is is not "true" is unbelievably fascist, authoritarian idea, that I will fight against.  The hate speech laws here in EU are utterly ridiculous already, what with a Finnish former minister and current member of parliament being dragged through the courts for quoting the Bible.  (I'm not actually Christian myself.)
 
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Offline ve7xen

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #205 on: May 04, 2022, 05:41:49 am »
Journalists are not supposed to be the guardians of truth!  They are not the watchdogs of the population, they are the watchdogs of the powers that be!

YouTube et al are not journalists, nor are (most of) their users. That is the problem. If they were, they would vet their sources, do proper research, and censor unreliable information before publishing it...

They are platforms that host user generated content, and an entirely different thing. It is well within their rights and perfectly reasonable for them to censor the content they choose to host. I do think they have some ethical responsibility to at least make a good-faith effort to stem the spread of scams, misinformation, and hate on their platforms, but ultimately it is up to them. There is certainly no reason Google or anyone else should be obligated to host or publish any content on behalf of their users, especially if they believe it is harmful/misleading, which is in effect what you are saying.

Quote
God dammit I utterly, utterly despise the idea of information providers limiting access to information based on what they believe to be true or factual.  It is not their right, nor their responsibility.

So you despise journalists with integrity? I'm so confused by your position here Journalists *are* 'the guardians of truth', doing that research, determining, in good faith, what is fact, and publishing the result of their efforts so we don't all have to retread the same path is exactly their job and purpose, yet somehow you use this as an argument against censoring lies and misinformation :wtf:. That is what journalism is all about, and while social media / Internet hosting companies are not journalists, they are realizing that they should exercise at least some of the discretion that actual journalists do in what they publish and propagate.

Quote
But handing anyone the right to deem information as "not for the population to see or discuss" because is is not "true" is unbelievably fascist, authoritarian idea, that I will fight against.  The hate speech laws here in EU are utterly ridiculous already, what with a Finnish former minister and current member of parliament being dragged through the courts for quoting the Bible.  (I'm not actually Christian myself.)

That is not even close to what is happening. The platforms have the right to choose what to host for any reason they want. Is it ethical for them to censor content that they believe to be misleading or harmful? I believe it is, on the same grounds as it is ethical and even essential for journalists to do so.

And the Bible is full of hate speech, that's really not a defence, though I know nothing of this case.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 05:43:23 am by ve7xen »
73 de VE7XEN
He/Him
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #206 on: May 04, 2022, 05:49:26 am »
YouTube et al are not journalists, nor are (most of) their users. That is the problem. If they were, they would vet their sources, do proper research, and censor unreliable information before publishing it...
According this statement largest news outlets have almost no journalists either since they publish loads of unverified garbage or outright lies.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #207 on: May 04, 2022, 05:58:09 am »
God dammit I utterly, utterly despise the idea of information providers limiting access to information based on what they believe to be true or factual.  It is not their right, nor their responsibility.

So you despise journalists with integrity? I'm so confused by your position here Journalists *are* 'the guardians of truth', doing that research, determining, in good faith, what is fact, and publishing the result of their efforts so we don't all have to retread the same path is exactly their job and purpose, yet somehow you use this as an argument against censoring lies and misinformation :wtf:. That is what journalism is all about, and while social media / Internet hosting companies are not journalists, they are realizing that they should exercise at least some of the discretion that actual journalists do in what they publish and propagate.
You conflate two completely separate things:
1) What a person in a news organization chooses to write about
2) What an organization forbids discussion about

Don't you see the difference?

Again, the Hunter Biden laptop case is a perfect example.  Hard evidence existed, it was just labeled as "Trump campaign product" and "Russian misinformation", and therefore not to be discussed in media.

No matter of personal :wtf: changes the fact that no media organization is to be trusted to define what is true and what is not, no matter what their political leanings are.

The best journalists will post their findings, separate from their personal opinions –– or at least clearly stating what is their opinion and what is what they found out.  Today, "journalists" try very hard to mix and conflate the two, and deliberately mischaracterise their political leanings exactly because they do not see themselves as servants of the public, but as the gatekeepers and shepherds of the public, determining what information the public should not be exposed to.  This is sick.

Without free information, all you have is manipulation.  Better face it, or accept being manipulated.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 06:00:04 am by Nominal Animal »
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #208 on: May 04, 2022, 06:09:29 am »
A key part of the manipulation of "truth" is to choose your sources selectively.  Because there are tens of sources that are generally categorized as "factual" by independent organizations, and they tend to have differing opinions on what is true and what is not, all you need to do is choose your sources.

In Finland –– again, ostensibly the country with the most free newsmedia in the world, according to international observers –– the "journalists" openly admit they don't need to consider sources they don't like.  The head of one of the largest newsrooms even admitted in a tweet that they are not hired to do journalism, but to push their own opinions and views instead.

(That Hunter Biden laptop is a particularly sore point for me, because when I mentioned it in some face-to-face discussion here in Finland, I was labeled a "conspiracy theorist".  Our beloved Finnish newsmedia still hasn't reported on it, probably because they find the topic "distasteful".  That's the level of "world's free-est journos" for you.)

Perhaps things are different where you (whoever you might be, the person reading this post), but I do not think so: the world is surprisingly small in these things.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 07:26:12 am by Nominal Animal »
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #209 on: May 04, 2022, 06:35:19 am »
I'm triggered.
You seem to have forgotten the reason why women are given separate spaces from men: to make them feel more comfortable and protect them against predators. Yes it's true, it doesn't stop predators, but it helps. The hospital simply noting the person's genitalia and putting him on a male ward, irrespective of how he identifies, would have solved the problem. If he'd had gender reassignment surgery, then no problem, put him on a female ward.
I don't see how the latter would make anything different. In the end gender and sexual orientation are just superficial. There will always be people that harrass other people and gender has nothing to do with that. IOW: you are seeing a cause and effect relation that doesn't exist / are jumping to the wrong conclusions.
Sex/gender is not superficial. Men are stronger than women and women are more likely to be harmed by them, than the other way round. It is also why there are separate categories in most sports for men and women.

Men are really identifying as female to be allowed into women's prisons, hospitals, changing rooms etc. This isn't the only case of a woman being raped by a man, claiming to be a women. I dare say there are a greater number of men who are prepared to lie to get access to vulnerable women, than there are genuine transgender women, especially criminals destined for prison. It is a problem.

How would you feel if this happened to your wife/girlfriend/mother/sister?

And don't conflate transgenderism with sexual orientation. They are not the same thing. Being attracted to the same sex, doesn't involve any delusion, body dysmorphia, or require any physical treatments i.e. surgery and hormones. Transgenderism is believing ones body doesn't match their brain. It is similar to someone with anorexia nervosa believing they're fat, when they've vert thin. Of course, people with this condition need to be allowed to live their lives in piece, without harassment and not be denied employment.

Quote
Their activism is getting artifically amplified by policies of social networks and media, and that's what makes the whole thing look more and more "normal" to the whole population. But I'm sorry, I do not think in the least that those networks and media do it BECAUSE that's what the population wants to hear. They do it because they have their own agenda, and THEN it progressively gets inside people's minds.
That is what I call a 'Trumpism'. Usefull information gets lost in the noise and reliable sources are being discredited. It seems to work well on you.

Fortunately social media and regular media start to see that they have a responsibility for removing false information or at least tagging information as not being verified / necessarily true.
People who work for social media companies lack the knowledge, skills and experience, to separate misinformation from the truth. A classic example was Facebook's censorship of the British Medical Journal for publishing something they didn't believe/like.
https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o95
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #210 on: May 04, 2022, 07:55:31 am »
God dammit I utterly, utterly despise the idea of information providers limiting access to information based on what they believe to be true or factual.  It is not their right, nor their responsibility.

So you despise journalists with integrity? I'm so confused by your position here Journalists *are* 'the guardians of truth', doing that research, determining, in good faith, what is fact, and publishing the result of their efforts so we don't all have to retread the same path is exactly their job and purpose, yet somehow you use this as an argument against censoring lies and misinformation :wtf:. That is what journalism is all about, and while social media / Internet hosting companies are not journalists, they are realizing that they should exercise at least some of the discretion that actual journalists do in what they publish and propagate.
You conflate two completely separate things:
1) What a person in a news organization chooses to write about
2) What an organization forbids discussion about

Don't you see the difference?

Again, the Hunter Biden laptop case is a perfect example.  Hard evidence existed, it was just labeled as "Trump campaign product" and "Russian misinformation", and therefore not to be discussed in media.

No matter of personal :wtf: changes the fact that no media organization is to be trusted to define what is true and what is not, no matter what their political leanings are.

The best journalists will post their findings, separate from their personal opinions –– or at least clearly stating what is their opinion and what is what they found out.  Today, "journalists" try very hard to mix and conflate the two, and deliberately mischaracterise their political leanings exactly because they do not see themselves as servants of the public, but as the gatekeepers and shepherds of the public, determining what information the public should not be exposed to.  This is sick.

Without free information, all you have is manipulation.  Better face it, or accept being manipulated.
Actually it was published by 220 years old media called New York Post, and then their account was banned/limited on twitter and other social networks. Any links to the article posted by other users were automatically deleted.
I guess because they needed to "fortify" elections as they say https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 07:57:27 am by wraper »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #211 on: May 04, 2022, 08:29:59 am »
Actually it was published by 220 years old media called New York Post, and then their account was banned/limited on twitter and other social networks. Any links to the article posted by other users were automatically deleted.
Yes, exactly; and they did have the proof at hand.  The other journalists simply refused to look at or consider it at all, and labeled –– based on various characters' assertions –– it something to be censored and hidden from view.

The point is, if you hand that kind of power to anyone, regardless of their political stance, that power will eventually be misused, to the detriment of all.

Even trusted fact-checkers sometimes get things wrong.  Because of that, telling people to trust some kind of checkmark that labels it factual, is just manipulating them.  Teaching each person to weigh things for themselves, to apply rational thought and logic, and how to critically analyse data –– say, the very basics of critical rationalism –– is what we should do, to empower individuals.

Of course, you do not become powerful by teaching people to be powerful.  You become powerful by making people into followers, into consumers.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #212 on: May 04, 2022, 10:00:54 am »
(That Hunter Biden laptop is a particularly sore point for me, because when I mentioned it in some face-to-face discussion here in Finland, I was labeled a "conspiracy theorist".  Our beloved Finnish newsmedia still hasn't reported on it, probably because they find the topic "distasteful".  That's the level of "world's free-est journos" for you.)

No, I think they were right in accusing you of believing in, a conspiracy theory ("conspiracy theorist").

On the one hand, at some level, it is true that there is such a claim, (Hunter Biden laptop).
But, as I understand it, it is NOT acknowledged (genuinely/cleanly proved), to be a verified/true piece of evidence.

On the other hand.  A good quality/reliable news article (and somewhat similar things, such as social media), should at least mention its existence.  But carefully explain that it is NOT proved/accepted as being true/genuine, at this moment in time. It could have been planted by other parties (I.e. Trump/Russian sources), and seems to have a number of "holes" in the evidence (serious or somewhat serious doubts).

TL;DR
I suppose, it would really need a jury and/or panel of (independent) experts.  To properly analyse the available evidence, and decide if it seems to be genuine/true, possibly genuine/true (but not PROVED or 100% known to be so), or definitely FALSE (lies, planted by other parties).

Just because it has NOT been proven so far, to have been falsely created by other parties.  Doesn't mean, that it is genuine.  E.g. An electronics component from AliExpress, that passes some basic electronic tests, and looks possibly genuine.  Could still be later, proved to be a fake.  It is just that the simple electrical parameter checks, with a $15 multimeter, and quick glance at it.  Haven't shown any obvious defects, yet.

Reference material (helping me write this post) was taken from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_Biden_laptop_controversy
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #213 on: May 04, 2022, 10:23:15 am »
(That Hunter Biden laptop is a particularly sore point for me, because when I mentioned it in some face-to-face discussion here in Finland, I was labeled a "conspiracy theorist".  Our beloved Finnish newsmedia still hasn't reported on it, probably because they find the topic "distasteful".  That's the level of "world's free-est journos" for you.)

No, I think they were right in accusing you of believing in, a conspiracy theory ("conspiracy theorist").

On the one hand, at some level, it is true that there is such a claim, (Hunter Biden laptop).
But, as I understand it, it is NOT acknowledged (genuinely/cleanly proved), to be a verified/true piece of evidence.

On the other hand.  A good quality/reliable news article (and somewhat similar things, such as social media), should at least mention its existence.  But carefully explain that it is NOT proved/accepted as being true/genuine, at this moment in time. It could have been planted by other parties (I.e. Trump/Russian sources), and seems to have a number of "holes" in the evidence (serious or somewhat serious doubts).

TL;DR
I suppose, it would really need a jury and/or panel of (independent) experts.  To properly analyse the available evidence, and decide if it seems to be genuine/true, possibly genuine/true (but not PROVED or 100% known to be so), or definitely FALSE (lies, planted by other parties).

Just because it has NOT been proven so far, to have been falsely created by other parties.  Doesn't mean, that it is genuine.  E.g. An electronics component from AliExpress, that passes some basic electronic tests, and looks possibly genuine.  Could still be later, proved to be a fake.  It is just that the simple electrical parameter checks, with a $15 multimeter, and quick glance at it.  Haven't shown any obvious defects, yet.

Reference material (helping me write this post) was taken from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_Biden_laptop_controversy
As you've acknowledged, there's a possibility the Hunter Biden laptop story might be true, so calling someone as conspiracy theorist for believing it is uncalled for.

Quite often, it's impossible to know what's true and what's a conspiracy theory. Another example was the lab leak theory of SAR-Cov-2, rather than the then accepted wet market narrative. It was originally dismissed as a conspiracy theory by many, but only a year later, many experts started to believe it's true. In reality, it's not proven, but is certainly a possibility.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #214 on: May 04, 2022, 10:45:08 am »
As you've acknowledged, there's a possibility the Hunter Biden laptop story might be true, so calling someone as conspiracy theorist for believing it is uncalled for.

Quite often, it's impossible to know what's true and what's a conspiracy theory. Another example was the lab leak theory of SAR-Cov-2, rather than the then accepted wet market narrative. It was originally dismissed as a conspiracy theory by many, but only a year later, many experts started to believe it's true. In reality, it's not proven, but is certainly a possibility.

I agree, that (if we accept that it is NOT proven yet, so might or might not be true), it is debatable/acceptable/arguable/arbitrary as to how reliable the claim, that the 'Hunter Biden laptop story' is true.  Is a persons opinion and/or conspiracy theory and/or political belief/opinion and/or technical analysis of the publicly available evidence, so far.

You're right.  Conspiracy theory, may be (or is) too much of a counter-claim.

Ideally/hopefully, eventually the (known to be reliably) true facts will come out, one way or the other.  As these things, sometimes do.  In the future.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #215 on: May 04, 2022, 11:48:02 am »
(That Hunter Biden laptop is a particularly sore point for me, because when I mentioned it in some face-to-face discussion here in Finland, I was labeled a "conspiracy theorist".  Our beloved Finnish newsmedia still hasn't reported on it, probably because they find the topic "distasteful".  That's the level of "world's free-est journos" for you.)

No, I think they were right in accusing you of believing in, a conspiracy theory ("conspiracy theorist").

On the one hand, at some level, it is true that there is such a claim, (Hunter Biden laptop).
But, as I understand it, it is NOT acknowledged (genuinely/cleanly proved), to be a verified/true piece of evidence.
Laptop authenticity already admitted by NYT and WAPO which earlier dismissed it as Russian hoax.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #216 on: May 04, 2022, 12:10:05 pm »
Laptop authenticity already admitted by NYT and WAPO which earlier dismissed it as Russian hoax.

But, that is NOW, in relatively recent times.  Presumably, when others called Nominal Animal, a "conspiracy theorist", it was well before article(s), such as the following, were publicly available.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10624113/NYT-finally-admits-Hunter-Bidens-laptop-real-year-DailyMail-com-confirmed-authenticity.html

Dated: "PUBLISHED: 20:11, 17 March 2022 | UPDATED: 04:46, 19 March 2022".

So, it is not TOTALLY UNREASONABLE, for the people, Nominal Animal was talking to, to call them a "conspiracy theorist". Or if it was (unreasonable), it was not unreasonable for them to dispute the truthfulness of that story circulating at the time.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #217 on: May 04, 2022, 12:14:23 pm »
So, it is not TOTALLY UNREASONABLE, for the people, Nominal Animal was talking to, to call them a "conspiracy theorist". Or if it was (unreasonable), it was not unreasonable for them to dispute the truthfulness of that story circulating at the time.
It is TOTALLY UNREASONABLE to call someone a conspiracy theorist, based on them not agreeing with the mainstream media. The mainstream media is the main source of conspiracy theories these days.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #218 on: May 04, 2022, 12:28:35 pm »
It is TOTALLY UNREASONABLE to call someone a conspiracy theorist, based on them not agreeing with the mainstream media. The mainstream media is the main source of conspiracy theories these days.

On reflection, I too easily went down the road of mentioning 'conspiracy theories'.  I didn't realize, it would cause such an adverse reaction.

Anyway, two things:

(Firstly)  Sorry Nominal Animal, if I've appear wrong/nasty, agreeing with other people (and me), saying/implying that your claims were a conspiracy theory.

I'm trying to have a discussion in this thread, rather than be rude about other posters.

(Secondly)  At the time it was especially newsworthy (before the US Presidential election).  There were clearly two parties involved.  The Biden camp, who especially wanted to trivialize and discredit that story.  Presumably doing so, with all Biden Camp friendly news sources.
Similarly (and opposingly), the Trump Camp, would try to spin it in the other direction, and make out it is a true story (which it seems to be turning out, it may well be).  Through their own Trump friendly news sources, and social media outlets.

There seem to have been a number of somewhat similar stories/incidents, like this one, throughout the last few decades (and longer).  Politics, seems to breed such situations.  E.g.  There have been a number of claims against the Trump Camp, which I won't drift this thread, even further down the political route, by mentioning.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 12:31:41 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #219 on: May 04, 2022, 01:16:26 pm »
On the one hand, at some level, it is true that there is such a claim, (Hunter Biden laptop).
But, as I understand it, it is NOT acknowledged (genuinely/cleanly proved), to be a verified/true piece of evidence.
Well, what you "acknowledge to be verified/true" is up to you, not up to some "authority" or "fact checker".  It is always up to you, the individual.
And just because you or some authority believes it to be so, they shouldn't be allowed to control others from accessing and discussing it.

Another example right now is Russian internal media here right now.  To understand what Russia does, I'd like to see what they want others to believe.  I cannot, because both rt.com and sputniknews.com are blocked here.  So much for freedom of press, eh?  Sure, it definitely is mostly propaganda; but to understand what they believe and think, you do need to see what they claim and hear what they say.  Otherwise, you're trusting someone elses opinion on what is true and what is not, without any references or way to check for yourself.

I'm just not the type to trust anyones word on anything.  I need to see the reasoning behind the opinion for myself, or the "word" is useless to me.

A good quality/reliable news article (and somewhat similar things, such as social media), should at least mention its existence.  But carefully explain that it is NOT proved/accepted as being true/genuine, at this moment in time.
Or, you know, like New York Post did, describe its sources in the story.  Remember, the counterargument was that "your sources are people we don't like, so we'll assume it is Trump lies or Russian propaganda".

The sources were good enough that independent journalists tracked down the repair person.  The provenance of the laptop is not really in question (except among those whose counterargument is "I don't believe you, because I only listen to people I trust and adopt their opinion uncritically"); what is in question, is whether the information in it matters or not.

I suppose, it would really need a jury and/or panel of (independent) experts.  To properly analyse the available evidence, and decide if it seems to be genuine/true, possibly genuine/true (but not PROVED or 100% known to be so), or definitely FALSE (lies, planted by other parties).
Perhaps; but it is not up to journalists to be that jury or judge, because nothing is ever 100% proven, when humans are involved.

Having the right to decide what to believe and think, is the primary human right, in my opinion.  Don't be so quick to let someone else tell you what you should believe to be true, or what you yourself should think.

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_Biden_laptop_controversy
Whenever you use Wikipedia as a source, I recommend also looking at the history of the page, i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hunter_Biden&action=history.  It contains gems like "New York Post is unreliable" as a basis for deletion, even though Media Bias / Fact Check rates New York Post as reliable as MSNBC or CNN.
 
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Offline madires

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #220 on: May 04, 2022, 01:22:20 pm »
The things we're discussing in this thread are nothing new. About 2k years ago Romans slandered Vandals to be monsters destroying everything they come across. Today we still use terms like vandalism because of this propaganda. But the truth is, as archaeology found out later, that Vandals were highly educated and not what the old Romans claimed to be. Today's social media is simply a fire accelerant for nonsense and propaganda because of its speed of distribution and the mass of 'information'. No time to reflect about what you just have read - the next message is already waiting.
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #221 on: May 04, 2022, 01:42:28 pm »
Sorry Nominal Animal, if I've appear wrong/nasty, agreeing with other people (and me), saying/implying that your claims were a conspiracy theory.
No, don't worry.  My frustration then (and less so now) was that having a discussion on the matter was impossible.  I wanted then to have a discussion along the lines of "Okay; if we assume this article is essentially true, what does it mean?  Also, if we assume this article is false, who and how and why this hoax was perpetrated?"  Both questions are equally interesting in the time frame when corraborative or falsifying facts were being obtained (like the source of the laptop itself).  Instead, I get labeled a conspiracy theorist for even entertaining the first case at all.

Same with the Russian media.  I don't want to know what they say because I think they are truthful, I want to know what they say because that describes what the powers that be there want to say; therefore, they reflect on what those powers want.  It is not about what I want to believe, it is about what various powers want the population (like myself) to believe, and why.  Everyone is trying to present a convincing narrative, and I want to find the holes in them.

No matter how nasty and disgusting language might be used, free speech is the only way for individuals to be free to think.
Rather than shielding people from the hurt and scariness, I want people to grow strong enough to weather the nasty, unfortunate side of the free speech (non-violence-inciting hate speech and such), because the possibilities and the end result is worth it, to me.

The things we're discussing in this thread are nothing new. About 2k years ago Romans slandered Vandals to be monsters destroying everything they come across. Today we still use terms like vandalism because of this propaganda. But the truth is, as archaeology found out later, that Vandals were highly educated and not what the old Romans claimed to be. Today's social media is simply a fire accelerant for nonsense and propaganda because of its speed of distribution and the mass of 'information'. No time to reflect about what you just have read - the next message is already waiting.
So true.  Having public access to some Vandal thinkers might have changed the opinion of the populace.  Food for thought when considering bans and censorship.

I'm worried that the Supreme Court may invalidate my marriage by overcoming Loving vs. Virginia..which is based on Roe vs. Wade..  thats a very real possibility in the US today.
You are, however, aware that if Roe vs. Wade is overturned, it just means that it will be up to each state to decide about it in its own legislation, and not that anything becomes "banned" overnight?  If you're worried, contact your local state legislature representatives, and help them make sure the proper state laws are in place in case Roe vs. Wade gets overturned at the federal level.  If the old racist laws are no longer in place –– and they damn well shouldn't, right? –– nothing changes.  As to the Roe vs. Wade and reproductive rights, the same applies: it just becomes a matter to be decided at the state level, instead of at the federal level.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #222 on: May 04, 2022, 01:47:06 pm »
I can't because of redistricting..

BUT - Any billionaire can buy Twitter and have a voice that cant be bought. See, isnt the world great!
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 01:53:04 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #223 on: May 04, 2022, 03:15:43 pm »
Journalists are not supposed to be the guardians of truth!  They are not the watchdogs of the population, they are the watchdogs of the powers that be!

YouTube et al are not journalists, nor are (most of) their users. That is the problem. If they were, they would vet their sources, do proper research, and censor unreliable information before publishing it...

They are platforms that host user generated content, and an entirely different thing. It is well within their rights and perfectly reasonable for them to censor the content they choose to host. I do think they have some ethical responsibility to at least make a good-faith effort to stem the spread of scams, misinformation, and hate on their platforms, but ultimately it is up to them. There is certainly no reason Google or anyone else should be obligated to host or publish any content on behalf of their users, especially if they believe it is harmful/misleading, which is in effect what you are saying.
Indeed. Most of the junk that goes against what is scientifically accepted as being true (or at least the best possible assumption) can go into the bin. There is too much noise nowadays which is echoed and amplified by people that have no clue at all and really need protection to prevent harming themselves and others.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #224 on: May 04, 2022, 03:46:44 pm »
Journalists are not supposed to be the guardians of truth!  They are not the watchdogs of the population, they are the watchdogs of the powers that be!

YouTube et al are not journalists, nor are (most of) their users. That is the problem. If they were, they would vet their sources, do proper research, and censor unreliable information before publishing it...

They are platforms that host user generated content, and an entirely different thing. It is well within their rights and perfectly reasonable for them to censor the content they choose to host. I do think they have some ethical responsibility to at least make a good-faith effort to stem the spread of scams, misinformation, and hate on their platforms, but ultimately it is up to them. There is certainly no reason Google or anyone else should be obligated to host or publish any content on behalf of their users, especially if they believe it is harmful/misleading, which is in effect what you are saying.
Indeed. Most of the junk that goes against what is scientifically accepted as being true (or at least the best possible assumption) can go into the bin. There is too much noise nowadays which is echoed and amplified by people that have no clue at all and really need protection to prevent harming themselves and others.
What's scientifically accepted to be true changes. Remember, back in February/March 2020, we were told face masks were ineffective at preventing the spread of COVID-19, then a few months later, the position was reversed? It turns out that there wasn't much real world evidence to support them back then. There were a few lab experiments, involving cages of animals infected, with a cloth cover placed over the cages and computer simulations, but nothing concrete.

Fortunately, a study was done in Bangladesh last year. It shows surgical masks reduce the spread by 11%, yet cloth masks didn't have a statistically significant effect. Great, you'd expect the mainstream media would report this and governments would start recommending people wear proper surgical masks, but no, ineffective cloth masks prevailed.  :palm:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02457-y

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_Biden_laptop_controversy
Whenever you use Wikipedia as a source, I recommend also looking at the history of the page, i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hunter_Biden&action=history.  It contains gems like "New York Post is unreliable" as a basis for deletion, even though Media Bias / Fact Check rates New York Post as reliable as MSNBC or CNN.
I do read Wikipedia, but it does have a strong left-wing bias. If the left-wing Guardian thinks it's slightly biased towards the Democratic Party, then it must be strongly left-wing.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/29/the-five-wikipedia-biases-pro-western-male-dominated
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #225 on: May 04, 2022, 03:53:43 pm »
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_Biden_laptop_controversy
Whenever you use Wikipedia as a source, I recommend also looking at the history of the page, i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hunter_Biden&action=history.  It contains gems like "New York Post is unreliable" as a basis for deletion, even though Media Bias / Fact Check rates New York Post as reliable as MSNBC or CNN.
I do read Wikipedia, but it does have a strong left-wing bias. If the left-wing Guardian thinks it's slightly biased towards the Democratic Party, then it must be strongly left-wing.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/29/the-five-wikipedia-biases-pro-western-male-dominated
I think it would be more accurate to say wikipedia has a strong stupid bias. If you look at pure technical pages, without any real political angle, they are gradually edited into meaninglessness, by people who clearly have no clue about the topic.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #226 on: May 04, 2022, 04:28:35 pm »
Journalists are not supposed to be the guardians of truth!  They are not the watchdogs of the population, they are the watchdogs of the powers that be!

YouTube et al are not journalists, nor are (most of) their users. That is the problem. If they were, they would vet their sources, do proper research, and censor unreliable information before publishing it...

They are platforms that host user generated content, and an entirely different thing. It is well within their rights and perfectly reasonable for them to censor the content they choose to host. I do think they have some ethical responsibility to at least make a good-faith effort to stem the spread of scams, misinformation, and hate on their platforms, but ultimately it is up to them. There is certainly no reason Google or anyone else should be obligated to host or publish any content on behalf of their users, especially if they believe it is harmful/misleading, which is in effect what you are saying.
Indeed. Most of the junk that goes against what is scientifically accepted as being true (or at least the best possible assumption) can go into the bin. There is too much noise nowadays which is echoed and amplified by people that have no clue at all and really need protection to prevent harming themselves and others.
What's scientifically accepted to be true changes. Remember, back in February/March 2020, we were told face masks were ineffective at preventing the spread of COVID-19, then a few months later, the position was reversed? It turns out that there wasn't much real world evidence to support them back then. There were a few lab experiments, involving cages of animals infected, with a cloth cover placed over the cages and computer simulations, but nothing concrete.
That is how science works and why I wrote 'the best possible assumption'.

Quote
Fortunately, a study was done in Bangladesh last year. It shows surgical masks reduce the spread by 11%, yet cloth masks didn't have a statistically significant effect. Great, you'd expect the mainstream media would report this and governments would start recommending people wear proper surgical masks, but no, ineffective cloth masks prevailed.  :palm:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02457-y
That depends per country where some countries choose not to change their position on the type of masks to avoid a new tsunami of fake news on social media that (in the big picture) has a detrimental effect on the society. IMHO the real problem is that people are insecure and want answers to their worries and many don't care that they get the wrong answer as long as they get an answer. This opens a whole can of worms; like how religions are being used as crowd control.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 04:34:08 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #227 on: May 04, 2022, 04:47:21 pm »
Journalists are not supposed to be the guardians of truth!  They are not the watchdogs of the population, they are the watchdogs of the powers that be!

YouTube et al are not journalists, nor are (most of) their users. That is the problem. If they were, they would vet their sources, do proper research, and censor unreliable information before publishing it...

They are platforms that host user generated content, and an entirely different thing. It is well within their rights and perfectly reasonable for them to censor the content they choose to host. I do think they have some ethical responsibility to at least make a good-faith effort to stem the spread of scams, misinformation, and hate on their platforms, but ultimately it is up to them. There is certainly no reason Google or anyone else should be obligated to host or publish any content on behalf of their users, especially if they believe it is harmful/misleading, which is in effect what you are saying.
Indeed. Most of the junk that goes against what is scientifically accepted as being true (or at least the best possible assumption) can go into the bin. There is too much noise nowadays which is echoed and amplified by people that have no clue at all and really need protection to prevent harming themselves and others.
What's scientifically accepted to be true changes. Remember, back in February/March 2020, we were told face masks were ineffective at preventing the spread of COVID-19, then a few months later, the position was reversed? It turns out that there wasn't much real world evidence to support them back then. There were a few lab experiments, involving cages of animals infected, with a cloth cover placed over the cages and computer simulations, but nothing concrete.
That is how science works and why I wrote 'the best possible assumption'.
So valid and important information should be banned because somebody assumed something, be it good or ill willed?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #228 on: May 04, 2022, 04:58:57 pm »
No, you are twisting my words around. What I'm saying is that it is best to wait for the scientific community (as a whole) to take a position on a subject instead of jumping to conclusions based on messages / videos circulating on social media. Science is truth by broad concensus; not what a single person thinks is true. The problem however is reaching concensus takes time while the public doesn't want to wait that long. 'Experts' take advantage of that by showing up on TV and other media to spout their opinions but in the end it is just meaningless drivel.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 05:04:49 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #229 on: May 04, 2022, 05:04:44 pm »
What's scientifically accepted to be true changes. Remember, back in February/March 2020, we were told face masks were ineffective at preventing the spread of COVID-19, then a few months later, the position was reversed? It turns out that there wasn't much real world evidence to support them back then. There were a few lab experiments, involving cages of animals infected, with a cloth cover placed over the cages and computer simulations, but nothing concrete.
One of the interesting things that changed was years of sober minded research by a number of bodies around the world concluded that large scale lockdowns would never be the right approach to take in any plausible pandemic. When a real disease popped up those with power immediately went in the opposite direction, based on nothing new being uncovered.

As for masks, there have been a number of studies about them over the years, drawing conclusions between ineffective, and mildly effective, depending on the transmission characteristics of the disease being studied. Did you hear anything nuanced like that being said by anyone with power in early 2020? It was either do not wear a mask or you an evil granny killer if you don't wear a mask, oscillating between those positions as time went by.

I was amused by a group of parents in the US being interviewed about their small children using N95 masks. They all felt they were absolutely essential. When questioned about the effect on their child's breathing, they responded that the masks fit their child's face so poorly they were breathing around the sides, and the mask didn't impede their breathing at all. Perhaps these were parents who had studied drama rather than a STEM subject.
 
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Offline ve7xen

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #230 on: May 04, 2022, 05:04:53 pm »
You conflate two completely separate things:
1) What a person in a news organization chooses to write about
2) What an organization forbids discussion about

No, you are the one conflating several concepts here. Whether you belive it is right or wrong ethically, YouTube et. al. are not obligated to publish anything, and it is absurd to suggest that they are.

Journalists are individuals, and can choose to write about whatever they went, though society should hold them to high standards of integrity that includes verifying sources and doing actual original research so that we don't have to. This used to be relatively 'easy', because widely distributing information required large networks and expensive equipment, the cost of which stood as a gatekeeper. Irresponsible 'journalists', when identified, shouldn't be published, and should be relegated to standing on their soapbox and handing out pamphlets on the street, and that is how journalism has ostensibly worked for 100s of years.

The internet has made it difficult to discern who is a journalist in the true sense and who is peddling unfounded outrage, conspiracy, and hate. YouTube et. al. are realizing they have some of the ethical responsibility of old-school news organizations to keep those crazies on the street with their pamphlets, and not give them front page headlines. This is, for whatever it's worth, still much more liberal and free than a few newspapers having a monopoly on reporting.

Quote
Again, the Hunter Biden laptop case is a perfect example.  Hard evidence existed, it was just labeled as "Trump campaign product" and "Russian misinformation", and therefore not to be discussed in media.

Really, this is the best example you have? A random laptop of unknown origin from a random repair shop claimed to contain supposedly incriminating files about the POTUS right in the middle of an election campaign? That is suspicious as all hell and journalists and others should hesitate to trust anything it contains. Years later and only recently has any of this been verified, and it's still highly dubious. This is exactly the kind of garbage that ethical journalists would avoid publishing during an election.

Quote
No matter of personal :wtf: changes the fact that no media organization is to be trusted to define what is true and what is not, no matter what their political leanings are.

Truth exists, it's not defined. Whether you trust media organizations and journalists to report exclusively on the truth or not is up to you, but that is their role in society, and we should hold them to it, not allow media to devolve into a political pissing match where the truth is hidden and nobody is going to help you find it.
73 de VE7XEN
He/Him
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #231 on: May 04, 2022, 05:05:20 pm »
No, you are twisting my words around. What I'm saying is that it is best to wait for the scientific community (as a whole) to take a position on a subject instead of jumping to conclusions based on messages / videos circulating on social media. Science is truth by broad concensus; not what a single person thinks is true. The problem however is that the public doesn't want to wait that long.
WTF "scientific community" actually means? Who makes an actual decision? Certainly not scientists who more often than not have different opinions about anything other than trivial topics. And how do you effing quantify the opinion of scientific community to begin with?
 

Online wraper

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #232 on: May 04, 2022, 05:13:32 pm »
Really, this is the best example you have? A random laptop of unknown origin from a random repair shop claimed to contain supposedly incriminating files about the POTUS right in the middle of an election campaign? That is suspicious as all hell and journalists and others should hesitate to trust anything it contains. Years later and only recently has any of this been verified, and it's still highly dubious. This is exactly the kind of garbage that ethical journalists would avoid publishing during an election.
Really? And what about Trump Russiagate which turned out to be a total hoax with no real evidence? None of those "ethical journalists" hesitated to publish a total trash for years, which hindered Trump presidency and reelection. Laptop on other hand turned out to be completely real. And the result of this "responsible journalism" is a corrupt to the bones president with Dementia.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 05:16:58 pm by wraper »
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #233 on: May 04, 2022, 05:14:41 pm »
Men are really identifying as female to be allowed into women's prisons, hospitals, changing rooms etc. This isn't the only case of a woman being raped by a man, claiming to be a women. I dare say there are a greater number of men who are prepared to lie to get access to vulnerable women, than there are genuine transgender women, especially criminals destined for prison. It is a problem.

I sincerely hope to never have the opportunity, but I think if I were headed to prison I would very seriously contemplate claiming to be transgender in order to be placed in a women's facility. Not because I want access to vulnerable women but because it seems likely to be a considerably safer environment away from the masses of violent incarcerated males.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #234 on: May 04, 2022, 05:20:03 pm »
Men are really identifying as female to be allowed into women's prisons, hospitals, changing rooms etc. This isn't the only case of a woman being raped by a man, claiming to be a women. I dare say there are a greater number of men who are prepared to lie to get access to vulnerable women, than there are genuine transgender women, especially criminals destined for prison. It is a problem.

I sincerely hope to never have the opportunity, but I think if I were headed to prison I would very seriously contemplate claiming to be transgender in order to be placed in a women's facility. Not because I want access to vulnerable women but because it seems likely to be a considerably safer environment away from the masses of violent incarcerated males.
Me too. lol

Journalists are not supposed to be the guardians of truth!  They are not the watchdogs of the population, they are the watchdogs of the powers that be!

YouTube et al are not journalists, nor are (most of) their users. That is the problem. If they were, they would vet their sources, do proper research, and censor unreliable information before publishing it...

They are platforms that host user generated content, and an entirely different thing. It is well within their rights and perfectly reasonable for them to censor the content they choose to host. I do think they have some ethical responsibility to at least make a good-faith effort to stem the spread of scams, misinformation, and hate on their platforms, but ultimately it is up to them. There is certainly no reason Google or anyone else should be obligated to host or publish any content on behalf of their users, especially if they believe it is harmful/misleading, which is in effect what you are saying.
Indeed. Most of the junk that goes against what is scientifically accepted as being true (or at least the best possible assumption) can go into the bin. There is too much noise nowadays which is echoed and amplified by people that have no clue at all and really need protection to prevent harming themselves and others.
What's scientifically accepted to be true changes. Remember, back in February/March 2020, we were told face masks were ineffective at preventing the spread of COVID-19, then a few months later, the position was reversed? It turns out that there wasn't much real world evidence to support them back then. There were a few lab experiments, involving cages of animals infected, with a cloth cover placed over the cages and computer simulations, but nothing concrete.
That is how science works and why I wrote 'the best possible assumption'.
How do you think science works? If you don't know, it involves people discussing different possible theories and the evidence to support them.

That can't happen on social media given the current levels of censorship. As I said before, even the British Medical Journal was censored by Facebook. Freedom of speech is essential for science to evolve. Without it, we go back to the Middle Ages, when only theories accepted by the authorities prevail. You must've heard of Galileo.


Quote
Quote
Fortunately, a study was done in Bangladesh last year. It shows surgical masks reduce the spread by 11%, yet cloth masks didn't have a statistically significant effect. Great, you'd expect the mainstream media would report this and governments would start recommending people wear proper surgical masks, but no, ineffective cloth masks prevailed.  :palm:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02457-y
That depends per country where some countries choose not to change their position on the type of masks to avoid a new tsunami of fake news on social media that (in the big picture) has a detrimental effect on the society. IMHO the real problem is that people are insecure and want answers to their worries and many don't care that they get the wrong answer as long as they get an answer. This opens a whole can of worms; like how religions are being used as crowd control.
Given that all countries I'm aware of recommend/mandate cloth, rather than surgical masks, most of the worlds' governments are equally incompetent then.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #235 on: May 04, 2022, 05:43:28 pm »
That can't happen on social media given the current levels of censorship. As I said before, even the British Medical Journal was censored by Facebook. Freedom of speech is essential for science to evolve. Without it, we go back to the Middle Ages, when only theories accepted by the authorities prevail. You must've heard of Galileo.
Any scientist expecting a meaningfull exchange on Facebook is an idiot. There are lots of much better ways like publishing papers in a scientific journal or presenting a new theory at a conference. Radical ideas require extraordinary proof and undergo a lot of scrutiny. Albert Einstein's relativity theories wheren't accepted from day one.

Quote
Given that all countries I'm aware of recommend/mandate cloth, rather than surgical masks, most of the worlds' governments are equally incompetent then.
Then you are aware of very few countries. In Germany FFP2 was mandated and in the Netherlands surgical masks where strongly recommended while cloth masks where discouraged.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 05:47:36 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #236 on: May 04, 2022, 05:47:51 pm »
Then you are aware of very few countries. In Germany FFP2 was mandated and in the Netherlands surgical masks where strongly recommended while cloth masks where discouraged.
They are outliers. The UK, US and Canada still push cloth masks. Germany and I believe Denmark are exceptional in the way their governments update their policies with the latest scientific theories.  Another  good example of this is recommending aspiration, when doctors and nurses inject the vaccine, in order to reduce the risk of it entering the bloodstream, where it might increase the risks of triggering adverse events.

That can't happen on social media given the current levels of censorship. As I said before, even the British Medical Journal was censored by Facebook. Freedom of speech is essential for science to evolve. Without it, we go back to the Middle Ages, when only theories accepted by the authorities prevail. You must've heard of Galileo.
Any scientist expecting a meaningfull exchange on Facebook is an idiot. There are lots of other ways like publishing papers in a scientific journal or presenting a new theory at a conference. Radical ideas require extraordinary proof and undergo a lot of scrutiny. Albert Einstein's relativity theories wheren't accepted from day one.
Plenty of doctors and scientists use Facebook to communicate with each other and ordinary people alike. This is vitally important to keep people interested and updated with the latest scientific thinking. Unfortunately this isn't possible, as the idiots who work there think they know better than the likes of the BMJ. :palm:
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 05:51:50 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #237 on: May 04, 2022, 05:48:47 pm »
Only an idiot would go on Facebook for medical advice. Facebook is not your doctor! So it is good if Facebook doesn't allow to dispense medical advice. Most governments have websites for medical advice which content is supervised / written by doctors; those are the places to go looking for medical advice.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 05:51:31 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #238 on: May 04, 2022, 06:00:49 pm »
Only an idiot would go on Facebook for medical advice. Facebook is not your doctor!
I would say the same to anyone who gets their medical advice from TV news, or some government run website.
Quote
So it is good if Facebook doesn't allow to dispense medical advice.
You're missing the point: Facebook only allow medical content which suits their agenda. I agree, if they want to do their bit to prevent the sharing of medical misinformation, the best thing they could do is just prohibit anyone from posting any medical content, but that's not the case.
Quote
Most governments have websites for medical advice which content is supervised / written by doctors; those are the places to go looking for medical advice.
Unfortunately they're often full of misinformation. It took the UK's NHS website a couple of years to update their website with the latest list of COVID-19 symptoms.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #239 on: May 04, 2022, 06:16:14 pm »
Only an idiot would go on Facebook for medical advice. Facebook is not your doctor! So it is good if Facebook doesn't allow to dispense medical advice. Most governments have websites for medical advice which content is supervised / written by doctors; those are the places to go looking for medical advice.

No, the right place to go for medical advice is, guess what? A doctor. Shocking huh?
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #240 on: May 04, 2022, 06:25:28 pm »
My local grocery store is filled with posters asking for GoFund me funds for people I grew up with who put off healthcare and ended up with "incurable" cancers.. Then insurance companies get to basically do nothing because its too late. Going to the doctor may cost you $250-$500 but thats probably because you have some health issue. That needs curative care. You can get free care if its only preventative.. in the US, this was for corporations. So that patients would not talk about work related chemicals. Or they get charged for the visit. Isnt that slick?

 Better to spend the money than end up with some serious disease and have it be too late to do anything about it.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 06:34:22 pm by cdev »
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #241 on: May 04, 2022, 06:27:12 pm »
If you feel you need an authority to tell you what is true and what is false, be my guest.  You will never, ever make me accept such an authority: I will make my own mind.

If you insist that only information vetted by some arbitrary censor is allowed to be disseminated, I will oppose you.  It's that simple; free speech is that important.  In my own home country, it has already been lost to an alarming degree.

Now, unlike the people who are willing to burn cities because they think a mass-produced object – a book – was mishandled or because they think a court might perhaps make a decision they dislike at some point in the future, I will oppose you with my words and concepts only.  I might apply a bit of civil disobedience, but not if it harms or risks harm to you or anyone else.

I am not an enemy, only an opponent.  There is a significant difference.  If we ever meet face to face, I'll be friendly and happy to meet you.

Am I the only one who has noted the lack of nuance in position in the things discussed in this thread?  That somehow, only two possibilities seem to exist?  That you either accept the Hunter Biden laptop proves Joe Biden is a crook, or you accept that it is a hoax?  Nothing exists in between.
"Either you are with us, or you are an enemy to be utterly destroyed before you destroy us."

There is no more search for the truth via journalism, only a demand that only factually verified non-offensive things should be allowed to be communicated. 
That the population should "trust media organizations and journalists to report exclusively on the truth [as] that is their role in society, and we should hold them to it", instead of considering journalism as a tool in discovering what is true and what is not; that it is for the journalists to report, and the readers to evaluate.

Well, I've made my position clear.  It also seems clear that either I am in a tiny minority, or cannot express myself in a way that convinces anyone, so :-//.
At least Dave let me voice it out here, so that's a big plus. :-+
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #242 on: May 04, 2022, 06:32:32 pm »
An opponent?

Does that mean you have opposed everything? That cant be true, its impossible to oppose everything.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 06:35:59 pm by cdev »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #243 on: May 04, 2022, 06:57:52 pm »
Am I the only one who has noted the lack of nuance in position in the things discussed in this thread?  That somehow, only two possibilities seem to exist?  That you either accept the Hunter Biden laptop proves Joe Biden is a crook, or you accept that it is a hoax?  Nothing exists in between.
"Either you are with us, or you are an enemy to be utterly destroyed before you destroy us."
That is what you are making of it. The reality is that the story is simply too thin for any paper to write it on. That should be a very clear sign! If there really was a story, the Republicans would have ran a marathon with it and go for an impeachment. And there is plenty of nuance in this thread but you are simply not seeing it.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 07:26:19 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #244 on: May 04, 2022, 07:35:19 pm »
Well, what you "acknowledge to be verified/true" is up to you, not up to some "authority" or "fact checker".  It is always up to you, the individual.

Not exactly, yes and no, if you like.
On the one hand, yes, an individual is responsible, especially if they end up taking action(s) as a result.

But on the other.  A particular individual, may well want to spend most of their time doing other things.  Work, Hobbies, Entertainment, TV/Movies, Dealing with Family, meals, hygiene and many other things.
Giving themselves, little time to keep up with the current days news.  They may even want to sleep or take toilet breaks, sometimes!

A particular individual, may well be highly intelligent, and extremely skilled/knowledgeable in some areas.  Perhaps they are a top Doctor.  But that wouldn't make them an expert on many other subject areas. For example, could the top Doctor, take 100% control of a troubled airline flight, with one engine burnt out, the other engine, over-heated, smoldering and showing various alert alarms. 45 injured passengers, of 419 (including crew), because of the on-board fire, smoke and other reasons.
Could the top Doctor, drive a formula 1 racing car, to win against several former world champion drivers ?

Maybe the top Doctor could write the firmware, design the PCB, for a complicated electronics project ?

If not, it would be tricky for them to analyse some news items, themselves.  Which is why, quality/reliable/trustworthy/truthful news sources, are especially important, for busy people and/or people who are NOT all that interested in the news, anyway.

TL;DR
Some have limited time and interest in the news.  But they want  a quick, minute or two, of the days headlines/summary of what has occurred.



Having the right to decide what to believe and think, is the primary human right

It is, but properly analyzing it (as I stated, earlier in this post), may exceed the skills, knowledge base and time resources, of the individual, who just wants to see the news, or a quick summary of it.

Whenever you use Wikipedia as a source, I recommend also looking at the history of the page

Wikipedia tends to be (sometimes), merely reasonable as a source (but in many cases, very useful and accurate), rather than outstanding, highly accurate, and other measures of high end quality sources.  In some cases, it can be plain wrong, or even edited by people with strong biases, and the wrong reasons, for updated/changing the article(s).  Which leads nicely on to my next section:

Same with the Russian media.  I don't want to know what they say because I think they are truthful, I want to know what they say because that describes what the powers that be there want to say

Newspapers/TV-channels, and similar news sources.  Should be basically truthful and accurate.  When, on a very regular basis, they are churning out complete lies.  Basically it is part of a huge disinformation and war propaganda machine, for the other side (enemy).

So I can well understand it being banned, in much/all of the West.

You are right, in saying that some (probably rare) individuals.  Can digest the information, and generate useful information, by reverse engineering the lying process or something.  But, the channel(s)/newspapers/etc, from a practical point of view.  Need to either be banned completely or allowed.
So, in the current circumstances (i.e. war(s) have started up), it makes lots of sense to clamp down on such arguably bad information sources.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 08:00:09 pm by MK14 »
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #245 on: May 04, 2022, 07:52:18 pm »
I think most people are clever enough to know if it's from RT, it's Russian propaganda, just as most people know the BBC push western propaganda.

Am I the only one who has noted the lack of nuance in position in the things discussed in this thread?  That somehow, only two possibilities seem to exist?  That you either accept the Hunter Biden laptop proves Joe Biden is a crook, or you accept that it is a hoax?  Nothing exists in between.
"Either you are with us, or you are an enemy to be utterly destroyed before you destroy us."
That is what you are making of it. The reality is that the story is simply too thin for any paper to write it on. That should be a very clear sign! If there really was a story, the Republicans would have ran a marathon with it and go for an impeachment. And there is plenty of nuance in this thread but you are simply not seeing it.
The problem is, most news outlets, educational facilities and social media companies, in the US have a pro-Democrat bias. This is reflected on Wikipedia, which as I said before, even the left-wing Guardian paper considers to be pro-Democrat. It's fairly obvious they did their very best to ensure Trump was not re-elected. The Republicans do make a big deal out of it. Watch Fox News and conservative YouTubers and you'll find they talk about it a lot. We don't hear about it much in Europe because Trump is anti-EU, so our mainstream media also dislike him.

Note that I have no interest in the matter and consider both the current and previous US presidents to be as bad as each other, in different ways.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 09:14:27 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline eugene

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #246 on: May 04, 2022, 08:31:56 pm »
I think most people are clever enough to know if it's from RT, it's Russian propaganda, just as most people know the BBC push western propaganda.

I really wish that were true. Unfortunately, the current condition in the US (at least the US, probably elsewhere too) is a deep divide between two groups that simply cannot comprehend the what the other is seeing. I know that I'm guilty myself. My own political views seem so obviously true that I'm sure every sane intelligent person agrees with me. Those that don't must be either stupid or deliberately crooked, right?

Given two presidents, A and B, very close to half of the population believes that A is truthfull with only good intentions while B is a filthy and corrupt. Meanwhile, the other half believe that A lies about everything for purely personal gain but B wears a white hat with the best of intentions for the country. It would seem that we can't count on the individual to see the truth without a lot of help.

It's a dumbfounding situation, but I can't think of any way to make it work other than to allow everyone to speak their piece, then provide close analysis and scrutiny of what was said by multiple 'experts'. Of course in practice, this hardly works because people listen to the experts that support whatever they already believe... Maybe more experts to fact check the first experts? Well, yeah, that's what free speech is supposed to be, but it doesn't seem to be freeing us from the circle that goes nowhere.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #247 on: May 04, 2022, 08:34:26 pm »
I think most people are clever enough to know if it's from RT, it's Russian propaganda, just as most people know the BBC push western propaganda.

I really wish that were true. Unfortunately, the current condition in the US (at least the US, probably elsewhere too) is a deep divide between two groups

I think that's the whole point. People shoud maybe read Machiavelli.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #248 on: May 04, 2022, 08:50:58 pm »
So, it is not TOTALLY UNREASONABLE, for the people, Nominal Animal was talking to, to call them a "conspiracy theorist". Or if it was (unreasonable), it was not unreasonable for them to dispute the truthfulness of that story circulating at the time.
It is TOTALLY UNREASONABLE to call someone a conspiracy theorist, based on them not agreeing with the mainstream media. The mainstream media is the main source of conspiracy theories these days.

Media can get VERY complicated these days.  Several decades ago, things were much simpler. No internet, a range of newspapers, and only a handful of TV channels.  These days, with the explosion of the internet, with a mindbogglingly huge range of websites, hundreds or even thousands of TV channels to choose from, mobile phone communications, etc.
In addition to all of the above, we can get almost live pictures, from peoples mobile phones. Showing actual (almost) live events happen in front of them, posted onto social media, and other internet places. E.g. At the start of the Russian/Ukrainian war, mobile phone footage of Russian missiles, heading towards and blowing up parts of a Ukrainian airport, were widely circulated.

So in modern times.  It is somewhat or more, different, to e.g. World War 2.  Which was limited to some film footage (usually Black and White), Radio (very little or no TV) and newspapers.

With youtube, just about anyone, with a mobile phone, and internet connection.  Can rapidly post videos, of almost anything.  Including significantly political/war/current news events.  Which has a tendency to move the news media/TV out of the hands of government control.  With some exceptions, like the Great Internet Firewall of China.
EDIT: typos.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 09:10:46 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #249 on: May 04, 2022, 08:59:15 pm »
And yet, despite this somewhat unreasonable number of sources of information we have now, what I find amazing is that it's every bit as easy to manipulate the public opinion these days than it ever was, if not easier. =)
 
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #250 on: May 04, 2022, 09:28:09 pm »
I think most people are clever enough to know if it's from RT, it's Russian propaganda, just as most people know the BBC push western propaganda.

I really wish that were true. Unfortunately, the current condition in the US (at least the US, probably elsewhere too) is a deep divide between two groups that simply cannot comprehend the what the other is seeing. I know that I'm guilty myself. My own political views seem so obviously true that I'm sure every sane intelligent person agrees with me. Those that don't must be either stupid or deliberately crooked, right?

Given two presidents, A and B, very close to half of the population believes that A is truthfull with only good intentions while B is a filthy and corrupt. Meanwhile, the other half believe that A lies about everything for purely personal gain but B wears a white hat with the best of intentions for the country. It would seem that we can't count on the individual to see the truth without a lot of help.

It's a dumbfounding situation, but I can't think of any way to make it work other than to allow everyone to speak their piece, then provide close analysis and scrutiny of what was said by multiple 'experts'. Of course in practice, this hardly works because people listen to the experts that support whatever they already believe... Maybe more experts to fact check the first experts? Well, yeah, that's what free speech is supposed to be, but it doesn't seem to be freeing us from the circle that goes nowhere.
Whilst you''re right of course. What you said wasn't applicable to the part of my post you quoted. I repeat: any idiot can see the British Broadcasting Cooperation, pushes a British i.e. western perspective on things, whilst Russia Today, does exactly the opposite.

Regarding the US presidents: Some people in the UK hate Trump because our mainstream media do, for others it's some of the bollocks he spoke on social media, but a good number of people here love him for being pro-Brexit and anti-immigration. A lot of people here like Biden because he's calm, compared to Trump and the BBC love him, whilst other hate him because they deem him to be incompetent and ineffectual.

So, it is not TOTALLY UNREASONABLE, for the people, Nominal Animal was talking to, to call them a "conspiracy theorist". Or if it was (unreasonable), it was not unreasonable for them to dispute the truthfulness of that story circulating at the time.
It is TOTALLY UNREASONABLE to call someone a conspiracy theorist, based on them not agreeing with the mainstream media. The mainstream media is the main source of conspiracy theories these days.

Media can get VERY complicated these days.  Several decades ago, things were much simpler. No internet, a range of newspapers, and only a handful of TV channels.  These days, with the explosion of the internet, with a mindbogglingly huge range of websites, hundreds or even thousands of TV channels to choose from, mobile phone communications, etc.
In addition to all of the above, we can get almost live pictures, from peoples mobile phones. Showing actual (almost) live events happen in front of them, posted onto social media, and other internet places. E.g. At the start of the Russian/Ukrainian war, mobile phone footage of Russian missiles, heading towards and blowing up parts of a Ukrainian airport, were widely circulated.

So in modern times.  It is somewhat or more, different, to e.g. World War 2.  Which was limited to some film footage (usually Black and White), Radio (very little or no TV) and newspapers.

With youtube, just about anyone, with a mobile phone, and internet connection.  Can rapidly post videos, of almost anything.  Including significantly political/war/current news events.  Which has a tendency to move the news media/TV out of the hands of government control.  With some exceptions, like the Great Internet Firewall of China.
EDIT: typos.
I think it's more difficult to manipulate everyone into thinking the same nowadays. There are good number of sources of information, on the Internet. which contradict the narrative put out by the BBC. During WW2 newspapers as well as the BBC pumped out nothing but anti-German propaganda. Nowadays it's possible to access alternative viewpoints on the Russian-Ukraine war.
 
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Offline eugene

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #251 on: May 04, 2022, 09:44:11 pm »
I think most people are clever enough to know if it's from RT, it's Russian propaganda, just as most people know the BBC push western propaganda.

I really wish that were true. [...]
Whilst you''re right of course. What you said wasn't applicable to the part of my post you quoted.

Point taken.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #252 on: May 04, 2022, 09:49:26 pm »
And yet, despite this somewhat unreasonable number of sources of information we have now, what I find amazing is that it's every bit as easy to manipulate the public opinion these days than it ever was, if not easier. =)
I don't think it ever was difficult. It is just that more parties are screaming for attention nowadays. Organised religion has been the defacto standard to control the massed for eons until book printing was invented.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #253 on: May 04, 2022, 09:51:38 pm »
I think it's more difficult to manipulate everyone into thinking the same nowadays. There are good number of sources of information, on the Internet. which contradict the narrative put out by the BBC. During WW2 newspapers as well as the BBC pumped out nothing but anti-German propaganda. Nowadays it's possible to access alternative viewpoints on the Russian-Ukraine war.
War is a special case, where honesty is defenestrated by all. However, until the late 80s the media largely distorted, rather than lied, because there was an assumption that there would be backlash to outright lies. Then they found that when they did tell unambiguous lies they could usually get away with a minor retraction at the bottom of page 27, or on the 3AM news update. That's when the news media really began to steep itself in fiction.
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #254 on: May 04, 2022, 10:02:38 pm »
Whilst you''re right of course. What you said wasn't applicable to the part of my post you quoted. I repeat: any idiot can see the British Broadcasting Cooperation, pushes a British i.e. western perspective on things, whilst Russia Today, does exactly the opposite.

Regarding the US presidents: Some people in the UK hate Trump because our mainstream media do, for others it's some of the bollocks he spoke on social media, but a good number of people here love him for being pro-Brexit and anti-immigration. A lot of people here like Biden because he's calm, compared to Trump and the BBC love him, whilst other hate him because they deem him to be incompetent and ineffectual.
What  I see is that we've been polarized beyond any recognition. The two political parties, or left and right in general have less and less common ground in the past 8-10 years, and I see this worldwide.
You either a leftist, who is going to force woke nonsense in every television program, and going to censor free speech (which BTW happened to every socialist country without exception) and take the rights of individuals.
Or you are right wing, who is a practically a nazi, and doesn't believe in vaccines and rides a Ford F150 to the gun store.

There is nothing in between for reasonable people. Both sides find the other completely despicable. What we have now was used to be called far left and far right.
Honestly, this entire western political system could use a bit of a reset, with more parties. How about having parties (that actually get votes) that don't have an opinion and policy on everything? But that's not going to happen, because of the polarization, if the other party wins, is just literally going to trash your life with it's policies.
That was true during the run up to Brexit, but it doesn't seem to be the case i the UK now. We have the Labour party, who openly promote immigration and the Conservative party who claim to be tough on immigration, yet in reality are just as keen. Both parties have similar policies on the National Health Service and they both supported the anti-COVID measures. Labour are very woke. The Conservatives are less so.

I wouldn't vote for either main parties. I side with the right on some aspects: anti-woke/immigration, yet the left on others: invest more in educating the poor, diverting council tax from richer to poorer areas, although I don't support any tax increases over all, just collect it more effectively and spend more efficiently.

I think it's more difficult to manipulate everyone into thinking the same nowadays. There are good number of sources of information, on the Internet. which contradict the narrative put out by the BBC. During WW2 newspapers as well as the BBC pumped out nothing but anti-German propaganda. Nowadays it's possible to access alternative viewpoints on the Russian-Ukraine war.
War is a special case, where honesty is defenestrated by all. However, until the late 80s the media largely distorted, rather than lied, because there was an assumption that there would be backlash to outright lies. Then they found that when they did tell unambiguous lies they could usually get away with a minor retraction at the bottom of page 27, or on the 3AM news update. That's when the news media really began to steep itself in fiction.

That's true to a degree. Back then newspapers were more of a thing and had some influence. They ere also good at counteracting the BBC to some extent. Now the Internet serves that purpose, with a far greater diversity of views present.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 10:06:28 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #255 on: May 04, 2022, 10:10:55 pm »
I think it's more difficult to manipulate everyone into thinking the same nowadays. There are good number of sources of information, on the Internet. which contradict the narrative put out by the BBC. During WW2 newspapers as well as the BBC pumped out nothing but anti-German propaganda. Nowadays it's possible to access alternative viewpoints on the Russian-Ukraine war.

In the past, I think some countries, would 'bomb' (airdrop) propaganda leaflets, into (usually enemy) countries.  To attempt to help with the war effort.  Something like that, perhaps with a more modern technical/digital/internet twist to it, could be repeated these days.  Perhaps to attempt to tell the Russian people, what is really going on, as regards the horrible Russian/Ukraine conflict.
Maybe by using powerful external directional radio transmissions, from western free-speech sources, into Russian territories.  Possibly by infuriating the Russian Internet infrastructure, is practicable/possible.

Perhaps, put a modern twist into it.  By creating millions of USB pens, full of the necessary news articles, from the west. PDFs/HTML and so forth.  Then dropping or distributing, or otherwise making them available to Russians.  Maybe hand boxes of them to 'friendly' Russians, who are happy to spread out such information, to their population.  Ideally without getting caught, and being given a 15 year prison sentence, worse.

The various alternative news sources, are useful.  Especially for getting a broader, less partly-scripted, views of what is going on, and other peoples opinions.  The official news sources, although I appreciate their basic integrity, truthfulness and lack of unsure political interference in their operations.  Political correctness, seems to have invaded too much.  To the point that it can actually affect, the quality and usefulness of the stories, being pushed out.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 10:12:28 pm by MK14 »
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #256 on: May 04, 2022, 10:16:29 pm »
Google originated in an NSF-funded project, not a corporation..  One generally open to college students, education which is increasingly only available to the fairly wealthy. The Clinton Administration made student loan debt undischargeable in bankruptcy..

 https://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=100660

There really are no alternative news sources of any note in the US of today, any more, because of various tactics, such as information gerrymandering.. monly two right wing parties and six cororations in the media.. which own countless smaller companies..and control the news..This is consistant with would be Empires.. The US has been plagued with lots of propaganda on the net since around 2013. They use our tax money for it, even though most Americans hate the idea. We have no choice in the matter.  The opublic outlet VOA is not what I mean, thats better than average. What bugs me is their paying news media not usually bloggers to parrot official memes.. etc. Stop spending our money to spin the facts..leave whatever happens alone..EU may do this too..

They should be prohibited from trying to spin the news at all. Since they are government employees.. Certainly its evil to promote a corporate hegemony oriented state. Or company.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 11:03:19 pm by cdev »
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #257 on: May 04, 2022, 10:52:00 pm »
What Google is doing, with their six Declarations to knowledge (They are asserting that its theirs, stealing it all) is much like the the Spanish Conquests "Requirimento" See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Requirement_of_1513 (also called the Requirimento) IT was read to native villages before attacking and looting them.

That should be studied because it framed the entire conquest of the Amercas for the European kings and queens..Google even created  A Declaration that parrots it. Every act of indigenous resistance was framed by Columbus and his heirs in the government of Spain  as "revolt" thereby legitimating brutal retaliation.Burning entire villages in the dead of the night and hanging women in public view..

Text of Spain's formal "Requirimento" authorizing themselves to steal the New World:

On behalf of the King, Don Fernando, and of Doña Juana I, his daughter, Queen of Castille and León, subduers of the barbarous nations, we their servants notify and make known to you, as best we can, that the Lord our God, Living and Eternal, created the Heaven and the Earth, and one man and one woman, of whom you and we, all the men of the world at the time, were and are descendants, and all those who came after and before us. But, on account of the multitude which has sprung from this man and woman in the five thousand or even more years since the world was created, it was necessary that some men should go one way and some another, and that they should be divided into many kingdoms and provinces, for in one alone they could not be sustained.
Of all these nations God our Lord gave charge to one man, called St. Peter, that he should be Lord and Superior of all the men in the world, that all should obey him, and that he should be the head of the whole Human Race, wherever men should live, and under whatever law, sect, or belief they should be; and he gave him the world for his kingdom and jurisdiction.
And he commanded him to place his seat in Rome, as the spot most fitting to rule the world from; but also he permitted him to have his seat in any other part of the world, and to judge and govern all Christians, Moors, Jews, Gentiles, and all other Sects. This man was called Pope, as if to say, Admirable Great Father and Governor of men. The men who lived in that time obeyed that St. Peter, and took him for Lord, King, and Superior of the universe; so also they have regarded the others who after him have been elected to the pontificate, and so has it been continued even till now, and will continue till the end of the world.
One of these Pontiffs, who succeeded that St. Peter as Lord of the world, in the dignity and seat which I have before mentioned, made donation of these isles and Tierra-firme to the aforesaid King and Queen and to their successors, our lords, with all that there are in these territories, as is contained in certain writings which passed upon the subject as aforesaid, which you can see if you wish.
So their Highnesses are kings and lords of these islands and land of Tierra-firme by virtue of this donation: and some islands, and indeed almost all those to whom this has been notified, have received and served their Highnesses, as lords and kings, in the way that subjects ought to do, with good will, without any resistance, immediately, without delay, when they were informed of the aforesaid facts. And also they received and obeyed the priests whom their Highnesses sent to preach to them and to teach them our Holy Faith; and all these, of their own free will, without any reward or condition, have become Christians, and are so, and their Highnesses have joyfully and benignantly received them, and also have commanded them to be treated as their subjects and vassals; and you too are held and obliged to do the same. Wherefore, as best we can, we ask and require you that you consider what we have said to you, and that you take the time that shall be necessary to understand and deliberate upon it, and that you acknowledge the Church as the Ruler and Superior of the whole world, and the high priest called Pope, and in his name the King and Queen Doña Juana our lords, in his place, as superiors and lords and kings of these islands and this Tierra-firme by virtue of the said donation, and that you consent and give place that these religious fathers should declare and preach to you the aforesaid.
If you do so, you will do well, and that which you are obliged to do to their Highnesses, and we in their name shall receive you in all love and charity, and shall leave you, your wives, and your children, and your lands, free without servitude, that you may do with them and with yourselves freely that which you like and think best, and they shall not compel you to turn Christians, unless you yourselves, when informed of the truth, should wish to be converted to our Holy Catholic Faith, as almost all the inhabitants of the rest of the islands have done. And, besides this, their Highnesses will award you many privileges and exemptions and will grant you many benefits.
But, if you do not do this, and maliciously make delay in it, I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country, and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their Highnesses; we shall take you and your wives and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their Highnesses may command; and we shall take away your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can, as to vassals who do not obey, and refuse to receive their lord, and resist and contradict him; and we protest that the deaths and losses which shall accrue from this are your fault, and not that of their Highnesses, or ours, nor of these cavaliers who come with us. And that we have said this to you and made this Requisition, we request the notary here present to give us his testimony in writing, and we ask the rest who are present that they should be witnesses of this Requisition.[8]
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 11:06:37 pm by cdev »
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Offline eugene

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #258 on: May 04, 2022, 11:54:17 pm »
I think most people are clever enough to know if it's from RT, it's Russian propaganda, just as most people know the BBC push western propaganda.

I really wish that were true. Unfortunately, the current condition in the US (at least the US, probably elsewhere too) is a deep divide between two groups that simply cannot comprehend the what the other is seeing. I know that I'm guilty myself. My own political views seem so obviously true that I'm sure every sane intelligent person agrees with me. Those that don't must be either stupid or deliberately crooked, right?

Given two presidents, A and B, very close to half of the population believes that A is truthfull with only good intentions while B is a filthy and corrupt. Meanwhile, the other half believe that A lies about everything for purely personal gain but B wears a white hat with the best of intentions for the country. It would seem that we can't count on the individual to see the truth without a lot of help.

It's a dumbfounding situation, but I can't think of any way to make it work other than to allow everyone to speak their piece, then provide close analysis and scrutiny of what was said by multiple 'experts'. Of course in practice, this hardly works because people listen to the experts that support whatever they already believe... Maybe more experts to fact check the first experts? Well, yeah, that's what free speech is supposed to be, but it doesn't seem to be freeing us from the circle that goes nowhere.
Whilst you''re right of course. What you said wasn't applicable to the part of my post you quoted. I repeat: any idiot can see the British Broadcasting Cooperation, pushes a British i.e. western perspective on things, whilst Russia Today, does exactly the opposite.

Regarding the US presidents: Some people in the UK hate Trump because our mainstream media do, for others it's some of the bollocks he spoke on social media, but a good number of people here love him for being pro-Brexit and anti-immigration. A lot of people here like Biden because he's calm, compared to Trump and the BBC love him, whilst other hate him because they deem him to be incompetent and ineffectual.

In retrospect, I think you might have missed my point. At least in the US, a significant portion of the population (maybe almost everyone) doesn't look at two news sources (RT and BBC for example) and recognize that both are pushing propaganda. They see one as pushing propaganda for entirely self serving purposes and the other as heroically providing the truth for the good of all. This breeds an out of control rivalry that results in absolute closed mindedness. A total stalemate.

Certainly there have been plenty of examples of politicians acting more in the interest of themselves and those that support them, but even with my own biases I understand that most politicians have goals they generally believe to be for the public good. I might or might not agree with them. I might have some seriously concerns about their mental health. But I don't believe that they're knowingly trying to achieve personal gains at the expense of the public. Hopefully you understand things in the same way.

Unfortunately, the real problem I see is that a significant majority of Americans don't understand things this way. There's evidence in the way I increasingly notice politicians and journalists use the phrase "the other side" when they are really thinking "the enemy." An adversarial stance is understood and expected, maybe even healthy. But what I see in practice is not healthy. It's a very unhealthy belief that the enemy's primary objective is complete annihilation of everything one believes to be right and good. So they need to be destroyed before they destroy us.

The problem that I'm pointing at is evidenced by news media, but only because the news media is composed of citizens. It's the citizens that scare the hell out of me, whether they're reporting the news, or hanging around bars drinking Budweiser, or hanging around Internet forums pretending to be above it all. So we can try to decide to what degree social media should be throttled, but social media is just a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.

Anyone trying to convince the "other side" to wake up and smell the coffee is aiming at the wrong target. The problem is not that we disagree, or even that "the other side" often pushes their goals in ways that seem deceitful. It seems to me that the problem is that almost everyone has completely forgotten that generally speaking we all want to get rid of bad things and bring in good things. The problem is not that we disagree about what's good and bad, the problem is that "we" honestly and truly believe that the enemy is deliberately and conciously trying to harm us. It seems obvious to me that this can't really be true. That's the target. We need to get everyone to understand that we're not at war (not talking about Ukraine and Russia) and that the other side isn't our enemy. They may see different things as good and bad, but they are not deliberately trying to make bad things happen. (I do see members of the US congress deliberately trying to make bad things happen to "the other side", but I see that as a symptom of the problem, which is in dire need of treatment, but it is not the problem itself.)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 12:00:40 am by eugene »
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #259 on: May 05, 2022, 01:30:30 am »
Which 90%?   (joke)

« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 01:32:45 am by cdev »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #260 on: May 05, 2022, 07:52:37 am »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.

 
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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #261 on: May 05, 2022, 08:02:58 am »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.
Ministery of Truth.
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #262 on: May 05, 2022, 08:38:18 am »
I think most people are clever enough to know if it's from RT, it's Russian propaganda, just as most people know the BBC push western propaganda.

I really wish that were true. Unfortunately, the current condition in the US (at least the US, probably elsewhere too) is a deep divide between two groups that simply cannot comprehend the what the other is seeing. I know that I'm guilty myself. My own political views seem so obviously true that I'm sure every sane intelligent person agrees with me. Those that don't must be either stupid or deliberately crooked, right?

Given two presidents, A and B, very close to half of the population believes that A is truthfull with only good intentions while B is a filthy and corrupt. Meanwhile, the other half believe that A lies about everything for purely personal gain but B wears a white hat with the best of intentions for the country. It would seem that we can't count on the individual to see the truth without a lot of help.

It's a dumbfounding situation, but I can't think of any way to make it work other than to allow everyone to speak their piece, then provide close analysis and scrutiny of what was said by multiple 'experts'. Of course in practice, this hardly works because people listen to the experts that support whatever they already believe... Maybe more experts to fact check the first experts? Well, yeah, that's what free speech is supposed to be, but it doesn't seem to be freeing us from the circle that goes nowhere.
Whilst you''re right of course. What you said wasn't applicable to the part of my post you quoted. I repeat: any idiot can see the British Broadcasting Cooperation, pushes a British i.e. western perspective on things, whilst Russia Today, does exactly the opposite.

Regarding the US presidents: Some people in the UK hate Trump because our mainstream media do, for others it's some of the bollocks he spoke on social media, but a good number of people here love him for being pro-Brexit and anti-immigration. A lot of people here like Biden because he's calm, compared to Trump and the BBC love him, whilst other hate him because they deem him to be incompetent and ineffectual.

In retrospect, I think you might have missed my point. At least in the US, a significant portion of the population (maybe almost everyone) doesn't look at two news sources (RT and BBC for example) and recognize that both are pushing propaganda. They see one as pushing propaganda for entirely self serving purposes and the other as heroically providing the truth for the good of all. This breeds an out of control rivalry that results in absolute closed mindedness. A total stalemate.

Certainly there have been plenty of examples of politicians acting more in the interest of themselves and those that support them, but even with my own biases I understand that most politicians have goals they generally believe to be for the public good. I might or might not agree with them. I might have some seriously concerns about their mental health. But I don't believe that they're knowingly trying to achieve personal gains at the expense of the public. Hopefully you understand things in the same way.

Unfortunately, the real problem I see is that a significant majority of Americans don't understand things this way. There's evidence in the way I increasingly notice politicians and journalists use the phrase "the other side" when they are really thinking "the enemy." An adversarial stance is understood and expected, maybe even healthy. But what I see in practice is not healthy. It's a very unhealthy belief that the enemy's primary objective is complete annihilation of everything one believes to be right and good. So they need to be destroyed before they destroy us.

The problem that I'm pointing at is evidenced by news media, but only because the news media is composed of citizens. It's the citizens that scare the hell out of me, whether they're reporting the news, or hanging around bars drinking Budweiser, or hanging around Internet forums pretending to be above it all. So we can try to decide to what degree social media should be throttled, but social media is just a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.

Anyone trying to convince the "other side" to wake up and smell the coffee is aiming at the wrong target. The problem is not that we disagree, or even that "the other side" often pushes their goals in ways that seem deceitful. It seems to me that the problem is that almost everyone has completely forgotten that generally speaking we all want to get rid of bad things and bring in good things. The problem is not that we disagree about what's good and bad, the problem is that "we" honestly and truly believe that the enemy is deliberately and conciously trying to harm us. It seems obvious to me that this can't really be true. That's the target. We need to get everyone to understand that we're not at war (not talking about Ukraine and Russia) and that the other side isn't our enemy. They may see different things as good and bad, but they are not deliberately trying to make bad things happen. (I do see members of the US congress deliberately trying to make bad things happen to "the other side", but I see that as a symptom of the problem, which is in dire need of treatment, but it is not the problem itself.)
No I didn't miss your point. That's certainly the case in the US. The problem is confirmation bias: people seek out political content which reinforces their views, rather than challenges them. This isn't helped by Internet algorithms, such as YouTube recommendations  which push similar content to what you've seen and liked..
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #263 on: May 05, 2022, 02:38:35 pm »
-------cut-----------------------
So their Highnesses are kings and lords of these islands and land of Tierra-firme by virtue of this donation: and some islands, and indeed almost all those to whom this has been notified, have received and served their Highnesses, as lords and kings, in the way that subjects ought to do, with good will, without any ---------------cut-------------------------

That post, including the ----cut------ bits, cuts made because it seemed to be a very long post.  Makes just about no sense to me, whatsoever.  It reminds me of two things.  Firstly, it is as if you copied some ancient books texts, from project Gothenburg.

Secondly, you are sounding like someone who might want to seek out help.  Because you seem very certain, that some kind of conspiracy theory, is actually occurring within the US.  Or something on those lines, as I'm finding it difficult to follow, your posts, in general.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #264 on: May 05, 2022, 04:25:30 pm »
Quote
that some kind of conspiracy theory, is actually occurring within the US

Of course some kind of conspiracy theory is actually occurring within the US! You need to narrow down to whether some specific thing is such :)

Or... are you suggesting QAnon is actually straight-up, honest to God real?  :o
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #265 on: May 05, 2022, 05:53:25 pm »
Given two presidents, A and B, very close to half of the population believes that A is truthfull with only good intentions while B is a filthy and corrupt. Meanwhile, the other half believe that A lies about everything for purely personal gain but B wears a white hat with the best of intentions for the country. It would seem that we can't count on the individual to see the truth without a lot of help.

That drives me nuts. South Park summed it up nicely, it's a choice between a turd sandwich and a giant douche. I get so frustrated watching both sides behave the same way and both of them are pointing out these awful things the other side is doing while being totally blind to the fact that their side is behaving exactly the same way. But it's different when they do it because... reasons...
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #266 on: May 05, 2022, 05:55:59 pm »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #267 on: May 05, 2022, 06:08:24 pm »
Or... are you suggesting QAnon is actually straight-up, honest to God real?  :o

I don't even really know what QAnon is, wasn't it just kind of a joke? I've never actually met anyone claiming to be associated with the group/movement/whatever.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #268 on: May 05, 2022, 06:28:55 pm »
Wouldn't be anon if you knew they were associated with it :)

But the question is not "did it exist" or "wasn't it just some fun" but "did people believe in it". Ask Marjorie Taylor Greene, who apparently used to know a lot about it.

 

Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #269 on: May 05, 2022, 09:03:36 pm »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.
Ministery of Truth.

It is absolutely coming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board
Its such an honest name. They find spreading disinformation so useful, they want to manage the entire BS industry, Its even headed by a famed spreader of BS.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #270 on: May 05, 2022, 09:12:11 pm »
Just to get back to Youtube/Google (and, in this case, Microsoft), they are pushing to get rid of passwords:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/05/05/microsoft-apple-google-fido/

Quote
Microsoft, Apple and Google – all longtime proponents of doing away with passwords for authentication purposes – are throwing their support behind standards developed by the FIDO Alliance and the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) that could eliminate passphrases completely.

Sometime this year or early in 2023, the three US giants are set to implement these standards so that folks can log into online services and apps using familiar password-less authentication methods, such as the device PIN or fingerprint or face scans they use to unlock their devices, the FIDO – short for Fast Identity Online – Alliance announced Thursday.

Sounds pretty reasonable on the face of it, but actually what this will do is make it easier to track you. No longer will you be able to have completely unrelated logins on various fora or other sites; with this every site you log into will know it's not just you but the real you.
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #271 on: May 05, 2022, 09:23:56 pm »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.
Ministery of Truth.

It is absolutely coming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board
Yeah, I heard about this.
The real issue is that free speech is equal to freedom of thought, they don't exist one without another.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #272 on: May 05, 2022, 10:15:05 pm »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.
Ministery of Truth.

It is absolutely coming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board
Yeah, I heard about this.
The real issue is that free speech is equal to freedom of thought, they don't exist one without another.
Nobody is taking either away. The goal is to prevent misinformation to spread like wildfire. IOW: people need to actively look for information instead of being bombarded with it. Hopefully it will help to prevent stupidity like anti-vaxers and unhealthy diets (like 'carb free') from becoming popular.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #273 on: May 05, 2022, 10:27:29 pm »
Tracking you is their business model. Anonymous speech is being ended.

Were entering a new age of the mass surveillance . With the uruguay Round they initiated a plan the end democracy as most understand it. Look up Dani Rodik's Trilemma. Democracy conflicts directly with it.

Just to get back to Youtube/Google (and, in this case, Microsoft), they are pushing to get rid of passwords:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/05/05/microsoft-apple-google-fido/

Quote
Microsoft, Apple and Google – all longtime proponents of doing away with passwords for authentication purposes – are throwing their support behind standards developed by the FIDO Alliance and the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) that could eliminate passphrases completely.

No thank you, these companies are not my friends.

Sometime this year or early in 2023, the three US giants are set to implement these standards so that folks can log into online services and apps using familiar password-less authentication methods, such as the device PIN or fingerprint or face scans they use to unlock their devices, the FIDO – short for Fast Identity Online – Alliance announced Thursday.

ITS NOT REASONABLE AT ALL..-- ITS A THEFT OF THE FUTURE AND ALL OUR LIVES AND DREAMS.


NO-
Sounds pretty reasonable on the face of it,

but actually what this will do is make it easier to track you. They already do this.
No longer will you be able to have completely unrelated logins on various fora or other sites; with this every site you log into will know it's not just you but the real you.

I just avoid these sites completely funck them.

Break up these huge companies so they pay taxes. I boycott the GAFA companies.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 10:34:33 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #274 on: May 05, 2022, 10:33:44 pm »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.
Ministery of Truth.

It is absolutely coming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board
Yeah, I heard about this.
The real issue is that free speech is equal to freedom of thought, they don't exist one without another.
Nobody is taking either away. The goal is to prevent misinformation to spread like wildfire. IOW: people need to actively look for information instead of being bombarded with it. Hopefully it will help to prevent stupidity like anti-vaxers and unhealthy diets (like 'carb free') from becoming popular.
So, you think they are going to crack down on all the garbage the US government has been spouting recently, that oscillates from month to month? I doubt it. I would be amazed if they did anything other than treat Orwell's works as operations manuals. Remember the US government has been doing things like labelling people who question how well we understand never before widely deployed technologies like mRNA pseudo-vaccines in the same way they label the people who question long term very well understood classes of true sterilising vaccines.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #275 on: May 05, 2022, 11:34:04 pm »
So, you think they are going to crack down on all the garbage the US government has been spouting recently, that oscillates from month to month? I doubt it. I would be amazed if they did anything other than treat Orwell's works as operations manuals. Remember the US government has been doing things like labelling people who question how well we understand never before widely deployed technologies like mRNA pseudo-vaccines in the same way they label the people who question long term very well understood classes of true sterilising vaccines.

mRNA vaccines are not new, the technology was first developed as far back as the 1960s and has been studied over the next several decades, it has been used in animal vaccinations for years according to my vet and the Covid pandemic was motivation to further develop the technology. Calling it a "pseudo-vaccine" is silly, and based on what? That it isn't 100% effective? If you redefine the word "vaccine" to mean something that is 100% effective then no true vaccine exists. Yes any vaccine or other medication has risks, the long term risks take a long time to learn, but diseases also have risks and those risks also take a long time to learn. I really don't understand the controversy around the Covid vaccines, especially since the handful of people I've known that refuse to get it don't seem bothered by taking other medications, particularly some medications that are not approved and/or are known to have potentially serious side effects. I don't think opposition to the Covid vaccine is rational or scientific in any way, it is political, and rooted in the fact that people don't like being told what to do, myself included. If they had told that group that they were not allowed to get vaccinated they'd be lined up at the door with pitchforks and torches demanding a shot. The only reason there is pushback against the idiots that refuse to get it is that vaccines (of any sort) only work when a large enough segment of the population gets vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. My mom was around when the Polio vaccine was developed and remembers lining up in a big line as a nurse walked down the line and gave each person a jab. People trusted science back then and there was no pushback that she can recall, everyone just got it and countless lives were saved or improved by it.
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #276 on: May 06, 2022, 12:32:44 am »
So, you think they are going to crack down on all the garbage the US government has been spouting recently, that oscillates from month to month? I doubt it. I would be amazed if they did anything other than treat Orwell's works as operations manuals. Remember the US government has been doing things like labelling people who question how well we understand never before widely deployed technologies like mRNA pseudo-vaccines in the same way they label the people who question long term very well understood classes of true sterilising vaccines.

mRNA vaccines are not new, the technology was first developed as far back as the 1960s and has been studied over the next several decades, it has been used in animal vaccinations for years according to my vet and the Covid pandemic was motivation to further develop the technology. Calling it a "pseudo-vaccine" is silly, and based on what? That it isn't 100% effective? If you redefine the word "vaccine" to mean something that is 100% effective then no true vaccine exists. Yes any vaccine or other medication has risks, the long term risks take a long time to learn, but diseases also have risks and those risks also take a long time to learn. I really don't understand the controversy around the Covid vaccines, especially since the handful of people I've known that refuse to get it don't seem bothered by taking other medications, particularly some medications that are not approved and/or are known to have potentially serious side effects. I don't think opposition to the Covid vaccine is rational or scientific in any way, it is political, and rooted in the fact that people don't like being told what to do, myself included. If they had told that group that they were not allowed to get vaccinated they'd be lined up at the door with pitchforks and torches demanding a shot. The only reason there is pushback against the idiots that refuse to get it is that vaccines (of any sort) only work when a large enough segment of the population gets vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. My mom was around when the Polio vaccine was developed and remembers lining up in a big line as a nurse walked down the line and gave each person a jab. People trusted science back then and there was no pushback that she can recall, everyone just got it and countless lives were saved or improved by it.
Robert Malone did the first work towards an mRNA vaccine in 1987. So, I don't know what your 1960s reference might be. I call it a pseudo-vaccine because just a couple of years ago an mRNA vaccine was described as a gene therapy, and not a vaccine. Then the naming suddenly shifted when it was commercially convenient.

I was around when polio vaccines were launched, and had early inoculation with one of them. So early the first dose was injected, and by the second dose they had realised you can squirt it on a sugar cube. They were used with somewhat limited testing, but for a disease with truly awful consequences. I was at school with people who were debilitated for life by polio before those inoculations arrived. You can't compare the cost benefit tradeoff for treating polio with a disease like COVID.

 

Offline ve7xen

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #277 on: May 06, 2022, 01:52:45 am »
If you feel you need an authority to tell you what is true and what is false, be my guest.  You will never, ever make me accept such an authority: I will make my own mind.

I guess you are responding to me here?

Quote
If you insist that only information vetted by some arbitrary censor is allowed to be disseminated, I will oppose you.  It's that simple; free speech is that important.  In my own home country, it has already been lost to an alarming degree.

That is not what I am insisting. I am insisting that YouTube and similar have the right to choose not to host/publish whatever they want for whatever reason they want, and arguing that they don't have this right is absurd. It's a free hosting service provided by a private company. For the most part that's not what's actually happening though. They are taking even weaker action and just making it harder to find by not recommending it or including it in search results; the content is usually still available directly.

Free speech is that important, and I'm not arguing that it isn't. However, I do think those with the ears of the people, so to speak, have an ethical responsibility not to abuse that influence, and part of that is not saying things that are misleading or outright incorrect. In my view, that role falls to YouTube and so on in our current environment, so I have no problem with them choosing to become more ethical and strict on what they propagate, much like journalists are meant to. If folks want to spread their misleading and incorrect drivel, they can host it themselves and still reach their followers far easier than in decades past. This is not at all at odds with free speech; free speech is about freedom from persecution, not the 'freedom' to have someone else host and spread your speech for you.

Quote
Am I the only one who has noted the lack of nuance in position in the things discussed in this thread?  That somehow, only two possibilities seem to exist?  That you either accept the Hunter Biden laptop proves Joe Biden is a crook, or you accept that it is a hoax?  Nothing exists in between.
"Either you are with us, or you are an enemy to be utterly destroyed before you destroy us."
I don't care about the Hunter Biden laptop and haven't really seen too many people commenting on that issue thankfully, because it is at best a diversion from the topic at hand. The source was extremely dubious, and I don't think it was compatible with journalistic ethics to publish about it (or at least about it's totally unverified contents) when it first came out because of how very suspicious the circumstances and timing of its surfacing were, and the fact that publishing it could easily influence the election which cannot be taken back with a retraction. Mouthing off about things like this when none of it has been verified is exactly what is eroding trust and integrity in journalism. Advocating for truth in reporting is directly at odds with this kind of mouth-running. Now some of it's been validated, at least they have something to ethically publish on, and the journalists you deride have done so in several prominent articles on what everyone can agree are top-tier sources of real journalism.

Quote
There is no more search for the truth via journalism, only a demand that only factually verified non-offensive things should be allowed to be communicated. 
That the population should "trust media organizations and journalists to report exclusively on the truth [as] that is their role in society, and we should hold them to it", instead of considering journalism as a tool in discovering what is true and what is not; that it is for the journalists to report, and the readers to evaluate.

Why are you misquoting me to change the meaning of my statements? I did not say or suggest that the population 'should' trust journalists blindly, and in fact my statement was basically the opposite of how you have snipped my quote here. What I am saying is that journalists and journalism exist to report to us on their research into the truth so that we don't have to do that research ourselves. That is the one and only reason journalism exists: to provide a vetted secondary source of information on the events in the world so that we don't all have to do many duplicates of that same primary research. I am not saying this grants them the automatic and absolute trust of the people; it does not, and that is what I mean when I say we should 'hold them to it'; but that their job is to find and report on the truth and only the truth, and it is up to us as society to make sure they are doing it properly and ethically.

As it relates to the online platforms, I think the closest pre-Internet analogy that kind of works is with journalists / publishers, and the ethical considerations seem somewhat similar in my view. They are obviously not exactly the same thing, but there are a lot of parallels, and I think we are seeing the public start to call for similar standards of truth and ethics to be applied to the Internet publishers as we may previously have expected of book publishers. And similarly, there will always be counter-culture publishers and Internet platforms, and there's mostly nothing wrong with that.
73 de VE7XEN
He/Him
 
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Offline Someone

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #278 on: May 06, 2022, 02:43:01 am »
I am insisting that YouTube and similar have the right to choose not to host/publish whatever they want for whatever reason they want, and arguing that they don't have this right is absurd. It's a free hosting service provided by a private company. For the most part that's not what's actually happening though.

...I think we are seeing the public start to call for similar standards of truth and ethics to be applied to the Internet publishers as we may previously have expected of book publishers. And similarly, there will always be counter-culture publishers and Internet platforms, and there's mostly nothing wrong with that.
That should all be pretty obvious to most people, cant believe it needs restating. Where it gets interesting is that these platforms want it both ways: "we choose who/what appears" while simultaneously "we are not responsible for what appears as it was someone else". Quickly gets political!
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #279 on: May 06, 2022, 06:35:34 am »
That is not what I am insisting. I am insisting that YouTube and similar have the right to choose not to host/publish whatever they want for whatever reason they want, and arguing that they don't have this right is absurd.

But Youtube gets legal protection as a Platform, but wants the benefits of being a Publisher too. This is the big legal delemma.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #280 on: May 06, 2022, 06:39:15 am »
I am insisting that YouTube and similar have the right to choose not to host/publish whatever they want for whatever reason they want, and arguing that they don't have this right is absurd. It's a free hosting service provided by a private company. For the most part that's not what's actually happening though.

...I think we are seeing the public start to call for similar standards of truth and ethics to be applied to the Internet publishers as we may previously have expected of book publishers. And similarly, there will always be counter-culture publishers and Internet platforms, and there's mostly nothing wrong with that.
That should all be pretty obvious to most people, cant believe it needs restating. Where it gets interesting is that these platforms want it both ways: "we choose who/what appears" while simultaneously "we are not responsible for what appears as it was someone else". Quickly gets political!
They can choose what not to publish. But then they become a publisher, not a platform. Which means they no longer should have legal protections platforms have and should be responsible for the content they publish and can be sued for what they publish. However they want editorial right of a publisher but responsibility of a platform.
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #281 on: May 06, 2022, 06:59:10 am »
I really don't understand the controversy around the Covid vaccines, especially since the handful of people I've known that refuse to get it don't seem bothered by taking other medications, particularly some medications that are not approved and/or are known to have potentially serious side effects. I don't think opposition to the Covid vaccine is rational or scientific in any way, it is political, and rooted in the fact that people don't like being told what to do, myself included. If they had told that group that they were not allowed to get vaccinated they'd be lined up at the door with pitchforks and torches demanding a shot. The only reason there is pushback against the idiots that refuse to get it is that vaccines (of any sort) only work when a large enough segment of the population gets vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. My mom was around when the Polio vaccine was developed and remembers lining up in a big line as a nurse walked down the line and gave each person a jab. People trusted science back then and there was no pushback that she can recall, everyone just got it and countless lives were saved or improved by it.
There are perfectly rational reasons to be concerned about the COVID-19 vaccines. The risk of severe disease increases with age, yet the risk of vaccine side effects increases with decreasing age. There is evidence to suggest that at some point, the risk of certain vaccine complications, such as myocarditis, in some demographics, exceed that of catching the virus. Refer to the study in Nature Medicine for more information.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1.full.pdf
Here's a graph showing excess myocarditis in different population groups post-vaccine vs infection. The events post vaccination of Pfizer and Moderna, exceed those after infection in men under 40.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/mostly-dodgy-sars-cov-2-rapid-tests/?action=dlattach;attach=1386011;image

Now there are other bad things which COVID can do, so I'm not saying men under 40 shouldn't get the shot, just that it isn't always as clear cut as you've been led to believe. The study was also done when more pathogenic variants were in circulation. The rates of myocarditis, along with other complications, post Omicron are probably lower, but there isn't solid data, so it's speculation.

There's no data to support getting the vaccine, if you've already had the infection. The risk of hospitalisation, after subsequent infections, for those who've been vaccinated and infected before is the same as those who've only had the natural infection.  If you've already had COVID and recovered, then getting the shot makes no difference to your risk of severe illness, if you get it again, so it makes no sense to risk the vaccine side effects.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm#F1_down

The vaccine doesn't prevent transmission, so implying the pandemic would've been over by now, if idiots got vaccinated is incorrect. It's people who use that kind of rhetoric are part of the problem. Insulting those who disagree with you is only going to make them feel more marginalised and won't help.

Herd immunity isn't happening and never will because the virus mutates and sterilising immunity doesn't last for long. Fortunately immunity from severe disease and death are long lived, which is why it's no longer a problem. The fact that Omicron is less pathogenic also helps, but increased immunity is a huge factor.

The double blind, placebo controlled trial for the vaccine was for two doses only, not a third, or fourth. It was also only in adults over 18. There isn't sold data to support how it's currently being used.

No, the government's vaccine policy doesn't follow the science and needs to be called out. I accepted it at the start and got the first two doses, but refused the third. I completely understand why some people won't get vaccinated.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #282 on: May 06, 2022, 08:26:02 am »
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #283 on: May 06, 2022, 11:17:28 am »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.
Ministery of Truth.

It is absolutely coming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board
Yeah, I heard about this.
The real issue is that free speech is equal to freedom of thought, they don't exist one without another.
Nobody is taking either away. The goal is to prevent misinformation to spread like wildfire. IOW: people need to actively look for information instead of being bombarded with it. Hopefully it will help to prevent stupidity like anti-vaxers and unhealthy diets (like 'carb free') from becoming popular.
It always starts like that. Just this just that. Just the nutters. Just the communists. Just the talk which offends people. Just the talk that offends anyone. Just my neighbor. Just the russians. Just the ones who believed that the Earth is not the center of the universe, but the Vatican and everyone else clearly believes that's the truth, and there are more of us so their view must be false. Just the ones that have opposing political views than mine.
We are just going to censor those people, but only those people. Monthly community updates will follow on what is censored!
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #284 on: May 06, 2022, 02:14:22 pm »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.
Ministery of Truth.

It is absolutely coming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board
Yeah, I heard about this.
The real issue is that free speech is equal to freedom of thought, they don't exist one without another.
Nobody is taking either away. The goal is to prevent misinformation to spread like wildfire. IOW: people need to actively look for information instead of being bombarded with it. Hopefully it will help to prevent stupidity like anti-vaxers and unhealthy diets (like 'carb free') from becoming popular.
It always starts like that. Just this just that. Just the nutters. Just the communists. Just the talk which offends people. Just the talk that offends anyone. Just my neighbor. Just the russians. Just the ones who believed that the Earth is not the center of the universe, but the Vatican and everyone else clearly believes that's the truth, and there are more of us so their view must be false. Just the ones that have opposing political views than mine.
We are just going to censor those people, but only those people. Monthly community updates will follow on what is censored!
Indeed. Once power is seized, it is never given back willingly.

It baffles me how many times over in the history of the world we need to go through the same steps that lead to hell while entire segments of society loudly applaud this in the name of "safety", "reason", "progress", <put_your_favourite_noun_here>
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #285 on: May 06, 2022, 02:19:33 pm »
Indeed. Once power is seized, it is never given back willingly.

It baffles me how many times over in the history of the world we need to go through the same steps that lead to hell while entire segments of society loudly applaud this in the name of "safety", "reason", "progress", <put_your_favourite_noun_here>

1984, here we come!

Quote
‘Orwell’s novella is a warning for the human race’

https://www.theguardian.com/childrens-books-site/2016/may/29/1984-george-orwell-review

Quote
1984 is a dystopian novella by George Orwell published in 1949, which follows the life of Winston Smith, a low ranking member of ‘the Party’, who is frustrated by the omnipresent eyes of the party, and its ominous ruler Big Brother.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #286 on: May 06, 2022, 05:17:27 pm »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.
Ministery of Truth.

It is absolutely coming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board
Yeah, I heard about this.
The real issue is that free speech is equal to freedom of thought, they don't exist one without another.
Nobody is taking either away. The goal is to prevent misinformation to spread like wildfire. IOW: people need to actively look for information instead of being bombarded with it. Hopefully it will help to prevent stupidity like anti-vaxers and unhealthy diets (like 'carb free') from becoming popular.
It always starts like that. Just this just that. Just the nutters. Just the communists. Just the talk which offends people. Just the talk that offends anyone. Just my neighbor. Just the russians. Just the ones who believed that the Earth is not the center of the universe, but the Vatican and everyone else clearly believes that's the truth, and there are more of us so their view must be false. Just the ones that have opposing political views than mine.
We are just going to censor those people, but only those people. Monthly community updates will follow on what is censored!
No, you are not getting the point at all here. The aim is to make misinformation not resonate around so much. IOW: Stop the lies from spreading. If you tell a lie enough times, the masses will accept it as the truth ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie ). Social media has become a very potent weapon to destabilise countries by attacking people's health and thus putting a strain on the society. Look at the anti-vaxers for example that are gaining enough followers to erode herd immunity away against serious deceases like Polio and Measles that where deemed eradicated. This is not an idle or theoretical threat; it is already happening for real and seems to be orchestrated by countries: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/mar/02/australias-anti-vaccine-groups-switch-focus-to-putin-praise-and-ukraine-conspiracies

According to this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7849510/ social media, and the spreading of misinformation played a big role in the world wide hoarding of toilet paper. As if you are going to die without toilet paper  :palm:

And it happens closer to home as well... Every now and then my wife comes to me in a panic state about something that (to me) is obviously a hoax but since she heard it from several friends / family members through social media she thinks it is true.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 05:42:04 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #287 on: May 06, 2022, 05:33:49 pm »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.
Ministery of Truth.

It is absolutely coming.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Board
Yeah, I heard about this.
The real issue is that free speech is equal to freedom of thought, they don't exist one without another.
Nobody is taking either away. The goal is to prevent misinformation to spread like wildfire. IOW: people need to actively look for information instead of being bombarded with it. Hopefully it will help to prevent stupidity like anti-vaxers and unhealthy diets (like 'carb free') from becoming popular.
It always starts like that. Just this just that. Just the nutters. Just the communists. Just the talk which offends people. Just the talk that offends anyone. Just my neighbor. Just the russians. Just the ones who believed that the Earth is not the center of the universe, but the Vatican and everyone else clearly believes that's the truth, and there are more of us so their view must be false. Just the ones that have opposing political views than mine.
We are just going to censor those people, but only those people. Monthly community updates will follow on what is censored!
No, you are not getting the point at all here. The aim is to make misinformation not resonate around so much. IOW: Stop the lies from spreading. If you tell a lie enough times, the masses will accept it as the truth ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie ). Social media has become a very potent weapon to destabilise countries by attacking people's health and thus putting a strain on the society. Look at the anti-vaxers for example that are gaining enough followers to erode herd immunity away against serious deceases like Polio and Measles that where deemed eradicated. This is not an idle or theoretical threat; it is already happening for real: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/mar/02/australias-anti-vaccine-groups-switch-focus-to-putin-praise-and-ukraine-conspiracies

And it happens closer to home as well... Every now and then my wife comes to me in a panic state about something that (to me) is obviously a hoax but since she heard it from several friends / family members through social media she thinks it is true.
You're also missing the point: in who do we trust to be the arbitrator of the truth?

We cannot trust any government because they're all open to corruption and often clueless themselves. How about medical bodies such as the World Health Organisation? No, they're also open to corruption by big pharma. What about educational institutions such as big name universities? Again no, as they accept funding from private companies and are controlled by governments. What about journalists? Again no, they're just as corrupt and worse still incompetent.

To summarise: I agree, misinformation is a problem, but believe what is being proposed isn't the solution and will make things worse, rather than better. I would rather people be free to spread misinformation on the Internet, where it can be rebuked accordingly, rather than censorship.

Guns, Drugs, and Skin Bleaching: YouTube Kids Still Poses Risks to Children: https://www.techtransparencyproject.org/articles/guns-drugs-and-skin-bleaching-youtube-kids-still-poses-risks-children
I've noticed many things go over young children's heads, so not all of that's as bad as it seems,

One thing to note is what's unsuitable for children is a matter of opinion and often depends on one's place on the political spectrum. The right are generally more concerned about topics of a sexual nature, critical race theory and gender ideology, whilst the left are more worried about guns, violence and white supremacy. My personally view is all of the aforementioned are bad, although it does worry me that some bad actors are indoctrinating children with political propaganda.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 06:29:20 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #288 on: May 06, 2022, 05:44:48 pm »
You're also missing the point: in who do we trust to be the arbitrator of the truth?
There is no point to miss: the ones spreading the information should be aware of their moral obligation. And if there is lack of implementing such a moral, then they should be nudget into the right direction by the government. In the end it all comes down to good journalism.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #289 on: May 06, 2022, 05:47:06 pm »
You're also missing the point: in who do we trust to be the arbitrator of the truth?
There is no point to miss: the ones spreading the information should be aware of their moral obligation. And if there is lack of implementing such a moral, then they should be nudget into the right direction by the government. In the end it all comes down to good journalism.
Of all the spreaders of misinformation we face, governments are the worst. The second worst are journalists. You want to make them arbiters of truth?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #290 on: May 06, 2022, 06:03:59 pm »
You're also missing the point: in who do we trust to be the arbitrator of the truth?
There is no point to miss: the ones spreading the information should be aware of their moral obligation. And if there is lack of implementing such a moral, then they should be nudget into the right direction by the government. In the end it all comes down to good journalism.
Of all the spreaders of misinformation we face, governments are the worst. The second worst are journalists. You want to make them arbiters of truth?
I already answered that question if you read the part you quoted carefully enough. Unless ofcourse you have a better idea (which I doubt is the case). You can be very hung up on 'freedom of speech' but if you fail to see that it is being actively used against you to undermine your wealth, health and values, then you are throwing the baby away with the bath water.

And for not trusting the government: you voted for those people! So either suck it up or become active in politics and work to make the changes you want.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 06:05:46 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #291 on: May 06, 2022, 06:12:18 pm »
And for not trusting the government: you voted for those people! So either suck it up or become active in politics and work to make the changes you want.
You really try hard to miss the point. NO government can ever be trusted. Give me government like power for a while, and I'd probably soon turn into the kind of person I'd loathe. Any reasonable system of government is structured to minimise its power. Not let it sweep through society throwing its weight around.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #292 on: May 06, 2022, 06:33:33 pm »
There are big reasons why both governments and corporations are so reliably unreliable. They have so much to hide. Every day I read about new atrocities.

They cant hide the truth.

You're also missing the point: in who do we trust to be the arbitrator of the truth?
There is no point to miss: the ones spreading the information should be aware of their moral obligation. And if there is lack of implementing such a moral, then they should be nudget into the right direction by the government. In the end it all comes down to good journalism.
Of all the spreaders of misinformation we face, governments are the worst. The second worst are journalists. You want to make them arbiters of truth?
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #293 on: May 06, 2022, 06:37:02 pm »
And for not trusting the government: you voted for those people! So either suck it up or become active in politics and work to make the changes you want.
And upon what information do people use, to inform them of who to vote for? Newspapers, TV, the Internet. If they're all manipulated by the government, then democracy can't exist, since the government will always put out information to keep the current regime in power.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 12:23:35 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #294 on: May 06, 2022, 06:40:58 pm »
In some (scary) parts of the world, everybody who is free, the non slaves, carry potentially lethal weapons most of the time, and life is cheap. death from them is fairly common.. should we prefer that?

And for not trusting the government: you voted for those people! So either suck it up or become active in politics and work to make the changes you want.
You really try hard to miss the point. NO government can ever be trusted. Give me government like power for a while, and I'd probably soon turn into the kind of person I'd loathe. Any reasonable system of government is structured to minimise its power. Not let it sweep through society throwing its weight around.

But, as you pointed out, they almost always do.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #295 on: May 06, 2022, 06:44:28 pm »
And for not trusting the government: you voted for those people! So either suck it up or become active in politics and work to make the changes you want.
And upon what information do people use, to inform them of who to vote for? Newspapers, TV, the Internet. If they're all manipulated by the government, then democracy can't exist, since the government will always put out information to keep the current regime in power.

Well, at least some bullshit is predictable. All thieves want to legitimate their plunder. But since Jan 1, 1995 certain rules tie countries hands. Its so that global capital remains mobile. See the Trilemma. It has certain effects, making the already powerful more so and the powerless even more powerless. The era of democracy was a brief anomaly caused by the Industrial revolution and its labor scarcity, and WWII  a rare exception that ended  at 11.59 PM on December 31, 1994, because its inconsistent with the protection of certain internationally traded assets. The era that most of us grew up during really was an economic anomaly in history.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 06:53:44 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline eugene

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #296 on: May 06, 2022, 10:14:08 pm »
We cannot trust any government because they're all open to corruption and often clueless themselves. How about medical bodies such as the World Health Organisation? No, they're also open to corruption by big pharma. What about educational institutions such as big name universities? Again no, as they accept funding from private companies and are controlled by governments. What about journalists? Again no, they're just as corrupt and worse still incompetent.

It would seem the only logical action for any of us is to build a private survival shelter and fill it with weapons and nonperishable food. That way we can protect ourselves from the entire rest of the world, absolutely none of which can be trusted.

That isn't at all appealing to me and I'm not even going to look down that road, never mind travel down it. You have to trust someone, at least conditionally.

Quote
To summarise: I agree, misinformation is a problem, but believe what is being proposed isn't the solution and will make things worse, rather than better. I would rather people be free to spread misinformation on the Internet, where it can be rebuked accordingly, rather than censorship.

I agree that any kind of throttling of information is a slippery slope. Ideologically, we want to believe that misinformation will be identified publicly. Then everyone will know what is true and what is false. Not just that, but everyone will see where the information comes from, so everyone will learn who we should trust in the future and who we shouldn't.

Unfortunately, this becomes not just a way to battle misinformation, but a tool to spread it. If someone is spreading a 'truth' that is in competition with mine, then I can promote my own by publicly calling them a liar, saying that they're spreading misinformation, maybe part of a big conspiracy. Some other people will retort that I'm the liar and that I'm spreading misinformation, etc. Ultimately it will become difficult (or impossible) for most people to separate information from disinformation. The ideology of free speech will have been shown to fail.

That's where we are today. Even blatant lies are given a pass in this morass of 'information.'. Not just subtle forms of misinformation and manipulation, but lies that are easily shown to be false, and obviously known to be false by the person speaking the lie. As a weapon, misinformation might cause some self-inflicted injury, but it can do much more injury to the enemy, so it's a weapon that is heavily exploited. (We all believe that it's used more heavily by the other side than by our side, but I'm not sure that it matters if there's an imbalance or not. It's just not a productive point of discussion. We need to focus on individuals, not 'sides.')

Having said that, I'm still not ready to trade the ideology of totally free speech for a different one.  :box:
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 10:16:19 pm by eugene »
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 
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Online magic

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #297 on: May 07, 2022, 09:46:44 pm »
I for one welcome our new misinformation overloards.
Ministery of Truth.
A subtle difference: it's Truth Incorporated, so they aren't bound by any of that "constitution" rubbish :-DD

American liberals love pointing out that the Bill of Rights prohibits the government from taking certain actions, but not private corporations. Freedom, man!
The argument that some common sense should be applied when corporations attempt to usurp powers typically held by governments completely flies over their head.
 
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Offline RJSV

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #298 on: May 09, 2022, 04:30:50 am »
Check out my personal experience, recently:
   To set this up, I have to 'deflect' some parts, to protect privacy (of others), so let's just say, a close equivalent:.  Say, I'm 16, under legal control, by parent  'Mary'...or perhaps I'm 42, under ' Freddy', a manager at job.
   Now, I've mentioned to this 'Mary' a couple items, relating to former President (Trump), and the US country.  Analysis stuff I heard watching cable channel '321', whatever, but it was compelling LOGIC relating to
a common situation.  Next thing I know; I get labeled by this 'boss', Freddy, he saying: "You're just another Hannity /Fox News puppet...".
   Now, clearly, I was repeating material from elsewhere, but NO, not according to 'Freddy', as he issues the phrase 'Fox News, Fox News', notwithstanding  my denials (repeated), saying "Nope, I heard that political analysis on channel 321, I don't watch Fox all that much, and Hannity I found slightly annoying, at worst."
   Then I probably responded with, "That's a fake Albatross, you are hanging around my neck", an old old expression referring to 'smears', dirty rumors.  But have to be careful: that 'Mary' parent, or 'Freddy' department manager has power...real tangible power and I don't want to, or cannot, afford to make 'trouble', pressing my points politely, (even while the other party is, actually, getting into personal ABUSE, territory!).
  Next,... that person, starts in with the censor stuff:
Saying things like "...We need to STIFLE that news channel,..perhaps ban FOX News /Hannity speach, for sure...".
   My gawd;. My mention of channel 321 analysis has triggered a 'ban Fox' mantra, (very grossly incorrect), plus coupled with an abusive 'smear' that I might not wish to challenge!
   So,... calls to ban 'Fox News', or create new 'crimes' of speech ???  (Remember, it's channel 321, NOT Fox channel that I was quoting).  That's so far off-base from common sense, (if you can follow my convoluted logic, here, LOL), that I just gotta say:
   No #@$#34$#@ Way...(insert your own cuss words).
 

Offline John B

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #299 on: May 20, 2022, 10:10:44 pm »
Odysee must have done some sever upgrades as their bandwidth has improved immensely  :-+
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #300 on: May 21, 2022, 01:38:31 am »
Odysee must have done some sever upgrades as their bandwidth has improved immensely  :-+
Of course media streaming needs lots of bandwidth. However, smooth streaming depends more on effectively dispersing that bandwidth around the world, so a good percentage of people can be served locally.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Youtube/Google is evil, time to fight back
« Reply #301 on: May 21, 2022, 03:48:11 am »
Odysee must have done some sever upgrades as their bandwidth has improved immensely  :-+

Yes, they just publicied this saying it's their biggest update yet, and the lag and buffering should be completely eliminated. Seems that way to me  :-+
 


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