Hyperloop's not dead

[Haenk]

https://www.n-tv.de/regionales/niedersachsen-und-bremen/Minister-eroeffnet-Testroehre-fuer-Hyperloop-Technik-in-Emden-article25628682.html

(German, use your favorite translator)

I wonder how much of taxpayers money goes into this stupidity.


Edit 15.03.: More detailed article with picture on heise.de (German only):

https://www.heise.de/news/Schwebend-durch-die-Roehre-Hyperloop-Teststrecke-eroeffnet-10316774.html

It even got solar panels!

[Kjelt]

The dutch hyperloop company "Hardt Hyperloop" went bankrupt this week.
Although there are no official reasons or explanation given, it looks like they ran out of funds and investors.

Dutch sites so use translate

https://nos.nl/artikel/2604921-nederlandse-hyperloop-ontwikkelaar-hardt-failliet

https://tweakers.net/nieuws/245368/bedrijf-achter-eerste-succesvolle-nederlandse-testrit-met-hyperloop-is-failliet.html

[Marco]

The magrail concept is perhaps a bit more realistic. If you think maglev is realistic. It is meant for upward/downward compatible trainsets and tracks.

The aerodynamics of maglev and hyperloop are not so different, "just" needs a retracting nosecone for the hyperloop compressor intake. There is a world where converting a section from maglev to hyperloop could be possible.

[LogicDude]

In my opinion the Hyperloop and the Boring Company are two Elon Musk fiascos that never made sense even on paper.  Nobody can bat 1000.  There was a pseudo Hyperloop demo at a Las Vegas trade show a few years ago that was ridiculous.

You probably know that Thunderf00t on YouTube shredded both of these proposals.  He also hates Elon Musk in general.

On the space side of things, I think Elon Musk is doing a lot of good things.  If the Starship gets over all of its many future hurdles it will be a very big deal.  Tin cans in space!

[Psi]

Jury is still out on Boring Company, they need to gain a reputation for actually being able to build long tunnels at low cost. They seem to be working quite well towards this but it will take more completed projects to prove themselves.

[Haenk]

Jury is still out on Boring Company, they need to gain a reputation for actually being able to build long tunnels at low cost. They seem to be working quite well towards this but it will take more completed projects to prove themselves.

To my (maybe outdated) knowledge, the Boring Company was a fraud from the very beginning. They simply used already existing machines and invinted *nothing*. Which is no wonder, because the already existing machines are pretty much only limited by physical matter, usually hard rock and accepted wear on the grinding teeth.

[PlainName]

To my (maybe outdated) knowledge, the Boring Company was a fraud from the very beginning. They simply used already existing machines and invinted *nothing*.

a: What is it that they were supposed to have invented?

b: In what way is using existing kit, but being able to bore holes faster than competitors, fraudulent?

[wraper]

Jury is still out on Boring Company, they need to gain a reputation for actually being able to build long tunnels at low cost. They seem to be working quite well towards this but it will take more completed projects to prove themselves.

To my (maybe outdated) knowledge, the Boring Company was a fraud from the very beginning. They simply used already existing machines and invinted *nothing*. Which is no wonder, because the already existing machines are pretty much only limited by physical matter, usually hard rock and accepted wear on the grinding teeth.

The only off the shelf TBM was Godot they've used initially. Then they had heavily modified Line-Storm to improve digging speed by 2-3x. All later TBMs were of their own making.

[Electrodynamic]

Jury is still out on Boring Company, they need to gain a reputation for actually being able to build long tunnels at low cost. They seem to be working quite well towards this but it will take more completed projects to prove themselves.

To my (maybe outdated) knowledge, the Boring Company was a fraud from the very beginning. They simply used already existing machines and invinted *nothing*. Which is no wonder, because the already existing machines are pretty much only limited by physical matter, usually hard rock and accepted wear on the grinding teeth.

Wikipedia seems to agree.
"Civil engineering experts and tunneling industry veterans questioned whether TBC could render tunnels faster and cheaper than competitors. Tunnelling Journal dismissed the company as a "vanity project". The low capacity of TBC tunnels make them inefficient compared to existing public transit, with only a fraction of the capacity of a conventional rapid-transit subway

Musk's planned tunnels were criticized for lacking such safety features as emergency exit corridors, ventilation systems, or fire suppression. In addition, the single lane tunnels left it impossible for vehicles to pass one another in the event of collision, mechanical failure, or other traffic obstruction, and instead would shut down the entire tunnel section".

[Psi]

Musk's planned tunnels were criticized for lacking such safety features as emergency exit corridors, ventilation systems, or fire suppression.

As I understand it, the modern machines are designed to tunnel without any human operators inside while active, which would address any issues with a lack of safety systems.  It also makes sense from a cost cutting perspective to avoid any labour costs if possible. 

In addition, the single lane tunnels left it impossible for vehicles to pass one another in the event of collision, mechanical failure, or other traffic obstruction, and instead would shut down the entire tunnel section".

Yep, but you have to start somewhere and smaller tunnels are easier to try different technology and approaches.

[AVGresponding]

They were slower, and more expensive than conventional tunnel boring machinery, by an order of magnitude (at least). And just because the machines are "unmanned" doesn't mean you have no humans there. Someone has to go and fix things when they break.

Hyperloop was always DOA, and this was known by everyone that actually understood the engineering involved. Hell, Musk couldn't even make his mind up whether it was a vacuum in the tube, or an "air hockey table" in a tube.

[Electrodynamic]

They were slower, and more expensive than conventional tunnel boring machinery, by an order of magnitude (at least). And just because the machines are "unmanned" doesn't mean you have no humans there. Someone has to go and fix things when they break.

Hyperloop was always DOA, and this was known by everyone that actually understood the engineering involved. Hell, Musk couldn't even make his mind up whether it was a vacuum in the tube, or an "air hockey table" in a tube.

Agree and Elon Musk seems to have a cult like following that believes everything he claims without question.

It's kind of creepy and if we explained what Musk routinely does but changed the name/company most would call them a conman or criminal. It's weird how some peoples values can change so drastically on a whim.

I proved this with some relatives, I said some guy in California built a self-driving EV that ran over some kids and everyone said he is a criminal and should go to prison. Then I said, "it was Elon Musk" and they started back peddling and making bs excuses. . The level of hypocrisy is insane.

[Marco]

If Elon keeps throwing money at his tunneling machines, they will eventually just make wider tunnels and the machines will start operating better ... and then they'll be just a bog standard boring company.

[Marco]

Hell, Musk couldn't even make his mind up whether it was a vacuum in the tube, or an "air hockey table" in a tube.[/color][/font][/b]

At high speed, there would still be a lot of air hitting the front of the train even in a decent vacuum. Which can be captured and used for air cushioning.

It's Concorde level bullshit, but it could be done.

[PlainName]

It's Concorde level bullshit

What do you mean by that?

[SteveThackery]

It's Concorde level bullshit, but it could be done.

What? Concorde was a superb piece of aerospace engineering. The biggest problem was the vision behind it: it was too expensive per seat-mile, and the demand was too low. Secondary factors were the noise level and the inability to go supersonic over land.

But as an engineering creation it was exceptional.

[Marco]

Making air cushioning work to suspend a train would have all of those problems and be a tour de force, but not a-priori impossible even in a decent vacuum.

Vacuum in the tube and an "air hockey table" in a tube are not in opposition, unless you think vacuum can only be used for the absolute, so never.

[Electrodynamic]

It's Concorde level bullshit, but it could be done.

What? Concorde was a superb piece of aerospace engineering. The biggest problem was the vision behind it: it was too expensive per seat-mile, and the demand was too low. Secondary factors were the noise level and the inability to go supersonic over land.

But as an engineering creation it was exceptional.

Agree and it reminds me of the Canadian Avro Arrow. It's weird how anytime the UK and Canada produce a superior technology the U.S. has a complete fucking meltdown. Where once we were allies now we are a supposed threat to their national interests. I remember watching the Concorde and agree it was a superb piece of aerospace engineering. The best of the best and as a young adult it inspired me to pursue science and engineering.

Like the avro arrow the only thing missing from the Concorde project was better engine technology. If the UK had developed something like the rotary pulse detonation engine it would have been a major leap forward in technology.

I'm done with the U.S. and none of my technology with cross our southern border. They have lost their mind and any sense of morality imo. Done with their BS.

[AVGresponding]

Making air cushioning work to suspend a train would have all of those problems and be a tour de force, but not a-priori impossible even in a decent vacuum.

Vacuum in the tube and an "air hockey table" in a tube are not in opposition, unless you think vacuum can only be used for the absolute, so never.

The air cushioning would only work at high speeds, so you'd need an alternative method of suspension at all the lower speeds. If you had enough air in there to do it at lower speeds, then the friction at higher speeds would be a huge problem. Even using active/adaptive aero surfaces. Not to mention the supersonic shock-wave you'd be pushing along as well.

[Psi]

It's kind of creepy and if we explained what Musk routinely does but changed the name/company most would call them a conman or criminal. It's weird how some peoples values can change so drastically on a whim.

People expect a company to behave like a company, looking for profits under every corner and only as honest as they need to be.  If you hear a company did something a bit dodgy but not technically against the law, or borderline, everyone sort of shrugs because they kind of expect companies to do that.  It's not a good thing to be clear, but it's typical so 99% of people tend to not bitch about it.

But. As soon as the company has a human face instead of a just a faceless company/brand-name then suddenly people expect the company to behave like a nice person. If that person (company) then does anything a bit ethically questionable people absolutely lose their shit.

It creates a short-circuit in peoples brains where they hold a company with a human face up to a higher standard that a faceless company.  It's to be expected but isn't a fair way to judge/compare the evilness of different companies.

Personally, I am 100% sure that if we magically knew what all companies were doing behind closed doors and ranked them from -100% (evil) to +100% (good), then Elon's companies would all be well past +20%. There would be so many well known companies and CEOs/executives that everyone would be calling for a lynch mob for.

[SteveThackery]

Like the avro arrow the only thing missing from the Concorde project was better engine technology. If the UK had developed something like the rotary pulse detonation engine it would have been a major leap forward in technology.

Agreed. To be fair, the work that did get done on the old Olympus engine was very considerable, in particular the remarkable intake system - one of the most sophisticated fitted to any aircraft. Intake air velocity was reduced from Mach 2 to Mach 0.5 and the pressure increased such that the total compression ratio - intake plus engine - was around 80:1.

I don't think the technology of the '60s was up to producing a rotary pulse detonation engine, although I could be wrong. Apparently it is challenging even by present day standards.

[PlainName]

People expect a company to behave like a company, looking for profits under every corner and only as honest as they need to be.

I don't. I expect a company to treat me properly, and various companies that I have business with do that. As a result, I am a loyal customer and that benefits them more than if they pissed me off and told everyone I know not to use them.

Profits can accrue over time and be more robust that the quick return on a buck you imply is the way they should and do operate.

[Psi]

People expect a company to behave like a company, looking for profits under every corner and only as honest as they need to be.

I don't. I expect a company to treat me properly, and various companies that I have business with do that. As a result, I am a loyal customer and that benefits them more than if they pissed me off and told everyone I know not to use them.

Profits can accrue over time and be more robust that the quick return on a buck you imply is the way they should and do operate.

Yes, me too, but I'm more talking about the general public (sheeple) rather than engineers or people with higher than average IQ.
When we form a viewpoint about something it's somewhat logical and based on facts. Even if we disagree we can usually see each others point of view, but the general public, not so much.

[Marco]

The air cushioning would only work at high speeds, so you'd need an alternative method of suspension at all the lower speeds.

Maglev for launch and then switch to airbearing? It might be cheaper per mile than the extra coils needed for electromagnetic suspension.

I didn't use the correct name for the company which proposes to do gradual train->maglev->vactrain/hyperloop BTW. It was magrail from the polish company Nevomo.

[Analog Kid]

I think Hyperloop, maglev, etc., are all solutions in search of a problem.

Look at worldwide rail systems: the big successful ones are all traditional steel wheel on steel rail. Shinkansen. TGV. ICE. All those.

That other stuff is just George Jetson techno-fantasy.

And the lack of these technologies is definitely not the reason that California still doesn't have a HSR system, and why it may never have one. (Hopefully: the system as projected is one huge boondoggle.)