NO MORE "SMART" APPLIANCES

[PartialDischarge]

A few lessons to be learned here, “smart thermostats”


Xcel confirmed to Contact Denver7 that 22,000 customers who had signed up for the Colorado AC Rewards program were locked out of their smart thermostats for hours on Tuesday.

"It's a voluntary program. Let's remember that this is something that customers choose to be a part of based on the incentives,"

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/contact-denver7/thousands-of-xcel-customers-locked-out-of-thermostats-during-energy-emergency

[SiliconWizard]

 

Don't "worry", you're going to see this kind of message in various occasions now even if you don't own any smart appliance.

[SilverSolder]

A few lessons to be learned here, “smart thermostats”


Xcel confirmed to Contact Denver7 that 22,000 customers who had signed up for the Colorado AC Rewards program were locked out of their smart thermostats for hours on Tuesday.

"It's a voluntary program. Let's remember that this is something that customers choose to be a part of based on the incentives,"

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/contact-denver7/thousands-of-xcel-customers-locked-out-of-thermostats-during-energy-emergency

I love the "Got it" acknowledgment button at the bottom of that message.

"You are required to eat sh!t.  [Got it]"

[MrMobodies]

I remembered someone's television that I looked at in 2016. I think it was a Toshiba built in 2008. I can't remember what model it was but it had an ethernet port on the back, it bad a browser, Youtube and some other video website stuff. When I joined it up using a wireless bridhe the browser couldn't load many websites and the built in Youtube built didn't work past loading where it would just hang.

The thing is that one was not called a "smart tv".

It was in 2012 when I first time i heard that stupid term plastered all over the news about the wifi in some of them being vulnerable and getting "hacked".
https://thehackernews.com/2013/07/network-enabled-samsung-tvs-vulnerable.html

Now I am hearing them using that term to refer to energy meters including the remote monitors,

[Andrew LB]

Don't "worry", you're going to see this kind of message in various occasions now even if you don't own any smart appliance.

Yeah, wait until they lock you out of your bank account because you questioned the results of an election  or you used the incorrect pronouns. Social credit systems are very popular among our "betters" in government recently. They'll make it a reality as soon as they implement this cash-less society crap.

[Kjelt]

My brother bought about ten smart wifi connected mains power measuring and on/off switching wall socket adapters in 2016 and two months ago they just stopped working all ten off them.
The company stopped support and without a phone home and reply from the company they switch off and just abort functioning.
I know this could happen with the cloud software license model but hardware ? 

[NiHaoMike]

My brother bought about ten smart wifi connected mains power measuring and on/off switching wall socket adapters in 2016 and two months ago they just stopped working all ten off them.
The company stopped support and without a phone home and reply from the company they switch off and just abort functioning.
I know this could happen with the cloud software license model but hardware ? 

That's why I only get the ones that support Tasmota or are at least well documented for hacking.

[MrMobodies]

The company stopped support and without a phone home and reply from the company they switch off and just abort functioning.
I know this could happen with the cloud software license model but hardware ? 

I had mentioned to the manufacturer of an inverter supplied to me about this happening to their "cloud" only website hosting monitor/datalogger via their (wifi stick thing) and no response to that other than them saying that the built in ethernet port is "reserved" and non functioning as opposed to what the manual says. I discovered that it uses modbus and now I have a working in house solution with a platform called HomeAssist with a ready made addition for it that seems to work really well. I am going to stick it on a minipc that I just ordered.

I'll be watching to see what happens whether they will shutdown their hosting or start charging subscription fees first.

[coppice]

My brother bought about ten smart wifi connected mains power measuring and on/off switching wall socket adapters in 2016 and two months ago they just stopped working all ten off them.
The company stopped support and without a phone home and reply from the company they switch off and just abort functioning.
I know this could happen with the cloud software license model but hardware ? 

He had 6 years of the system functioning. That's a lot more than most people get.

[Zucca]

My fridge has a WIFI, which was never turned on. Yeah things can go wrong:

Why the F*** a microwave needs a Wifi?

BTW, try to ask a teenager now what this is:
.

[MrMobodies]

I always thought, why does this trend exist in calling things "smart" and why are they referred as smart.

I wonder because as they are called "smart" does that mean the manufacturers or developer think that you are stupid and are effectively calling you stupid.

That I would need to have my solar panel inverter report to a website half way around the world that requires me to have broadband, mobile phone, "stupid app" and an account where I have to sign in just in order to see the data and logs and this inverter is only 5 to 10m away and has a small lcd screen that don't show very much.

The inverter isn't called smart and the manual seems reasonable but very vague on the ethernet and usb port and I haven't seen that word in the inverter document called "smart but let's see:

Google search "foxess smart"

So there is something they call "Smart" and it is that stupid WIFI stick thing the installer and manufacturer wanted to sell me where they claimed that it was only with that WIFI stick connected to the broadband and to their website as the only means of monitoring and datalogging that requires me to, you guessed it, "create an account (with the installer), sign in, download the app, register this and that. sign into that... blah blah blah nonsense" and needs broadband on just view data next to me like above. I refused it and I am pleased I did. My installer seems to be letting me manage it myself where I have access to the installer menus.

WiFi Stick Installation - FOX ESShttps://www.fox-ess.com › uploads › 2021/01
PDF
Step 1: Plug the Smart WiFi 2.0 into. WiFi/GPRS port under the bottom (underside) of the inverter. Note: label face to front. Step 2: Tighten the nut clockwise ...

The Smart WiFi 2.0 is an intelligent WiFi enabled *device allowing you to monitor the status and performance of your FoxESS PV system via the FoxCloud remote website monitoring platform. System owners and installers can easily keep up-to-date with performance data in real-time, view historic records and monitor system alerts.

Joke: *Device is a mystery... none of business what it is and how it works. Because it is "smart" and "intelligent" that means it allows you idiot customers/end users to do all these wonderful amazing things that could you never do before without the need of website, an account and a phone and "app" to upload data just to download it again.

"Real time and monitor system alerts"... well that is no good if you happen to have no broadband and need to view it at the time.
Very stupid. No inverter should need a website to view the statistics and as the only means of viewing it

I find the use of the word "smart" and "intelligent" use there as an insult. What happens to that "smart intelligent" thing when the manufacturer goes out of business.

Well I could do all that before with my previous solar panel system over 10 years where I was given and appliance and it wasn't called smart and it was not dependent on a website to function. It came with the software and a bit setup password change and that was it and worked straight away out of the box.

I find I could still do that now with this inverter in question with Homeassist appliance with a bit of work (after they lied to me that the ethernet port don't function) as it supports modbus and I found it isn't anything new and this Homeassist thing does not need broadband, a website to run or account in order to function.

I think that is my justification that when I see things that are labelled "smart" that is likely they full of sh*t..

The inverter itself mentions everything and functions as detailed in the manual. The only thing nonsense that I find on this occasions seems to what they call "smart" that is linked to the cloud website nonsense.

[Kjelt]

He had 6 years of the system functioning. That's a lot more than most people get.

Coming from a fellow EE , I now worry about the life expectancy of future electronic devices 
I hear these low lte figures from more persons, lower BOM so cheaper electrolytics etc.

[PlainName]

I wonder because as they are called "smart" does that mean the manufacturers or developer think that you are stupid and are effectively calling you stupid.

It's relative. A watch able to tell the time in 4 places at once and correctly change when Summer ends is certainly smart compared to a mechanical watch. When it can show your incoming texts, measure your heart rate, etc. as well, that's pretty smart isn't it?

Same applies with a refrigerator. There are those that just keep everything at 4C, and then you have the 'added' value ones that also... er... OK, maybe a microwave then. Ours has various programs for doing different foods, but there are some that you don't have to program at all and just tell them what it is, or show them the barcode off the packaging, and they either know it or find out off the web. You might think that's pointless or an infringement of your liberty to burn food to a crisp, but it's pretty smart compared to previous models.

Are they effectively calling you stupid? I think there is some element of mansplaining involved where you don't appreciate being told what you (think you) already know, and being told in really simple terms. But there is also the fact that a lot of people ARE stupid, or at least no technologists, and don't have a clue. The vendors are pandering to the bulk of the bell curve, and it's nothing personal that you happen to down on the slopes - it's just not worth their while writing vastly different blurbs for all possible egos. So they may treat you as stupid (which might be a good thing overall when you think about it) but they're not calling YOU, personally, stupid. They more likely don't have an opinion on you since you're so far down below the noise level of things that might spoil their day.

Edit: To clarify, I am not suggesting you are somehow wrong to be complaining about this stuff. It's obviously pissed you off, and kudos for actually making the effort to do something about it. But it's important to recognise that they are not dissing you, Mr Nobodies.

[SiliconWizard]

"Smart" is just a marketing term. Nothing particularly smart about those appliances. One common fact though is that the "smarter" those are, and the least in control you are as a customer. Generally speaking.
In that regard, "smart" here doesn't imply that you are stupid. This just implies that you aren't fully in control.

Companies designing those don't care to think you are stupid. They just want more control over their products because that's what makes them the most cash.
Now if people accept that loss of control and paying more than what should be reasonable for a given object, maybe they are a bit stupid. Or maybe being considered "intelligent" in our current society is to accept to conform to this new model, and this just looks stupid to those of us who don't want to conform. Yeah.

[PlainName]

They just want more control over their products because that's what makes them the most cash.

Yes, that explains the cloudy stuff. But that isn't the definition of 'smart' appliances. I have stuff that does the same clever bits but without external data hoovering or cloud. A simple example is an RGB LED strip which you can control from a phone app. I think it's clever - one of the things you can do is point your camera at something to make the LEDs show exactly that colour - so I think it would qualify as 'smart'. Maybe even IoT since it's networked, but it there isn't a cloud in sight.

[MrMobodies]

They just want more control over their products because that's what makes them the most cash.
Now if people accept that loss of control and paying more than what should be reasonable for a given object, maybe they are a bit stupid. Or maybe being considered "intelligent" in our current society is to accept to conform to this new model, and this just looks stupid to those of us who don't want to conform. Yeah.

Product brought for a purpose ->Manufacturer -> absolute control over product and needs the existence of that manufacturer to exist in order to function.
No!
Remote access alone from the manufacturer (without permission or setting) to do what they feel like is a big nono from me.
I will not tolerate that behaviour.

So the implementation of the word "smart" is not for my benefit or customization, to suit my needs and my preference. It is the company deciding what they think I would want or based on what they want or feel like. So they may may think they know me better than myself or portray an image, stereotype or habits, to get their way if it is about making money or charging for features that were brought with the purchase. Sounds to me more like dictatorship.

To lure me by giving it fancy names I would find as an insult in itself.
Manufacturer managed inverter service agreement - owned by the customer but managed and maintained by the manufacturer and contractor under a fixed duration. Only website viewing as managed by the manufacturer.

Not pretty, would never buy at least that tells me what it is without using fancy names and I would feel insulted when I get to the bottom of it to after find out about it

I go into a shop, see a product I like, take it out, see if it would do what I want, if yes I pay for it and leave with those features intact. When manufacturers come along and start changing things (if given access unintentionally behind my back on the back door speaking of trust) that affect my usage then that is out of order and they can have it back.

I am quite sensitive to fancy words used in this way when I find it is used against me. I had this done to me many times when people you fancy terms to mean something they want it to mean but it is just empty. I found by letting them have their way nothing materializes. I find I have to ask and clarify for everything in detail.

Talking about conformity. It is not that I don't want to conform, I just don't want whatever I buy to stop working when there is nothing wrong with it or loose features or cease to function for a purpose that I brought it for because the manufacturer have decided remotely.

Is it possible say they don't intend to treat me like I am stupid but in effect they are doing it without actually realizing subconsciously?

They just want more control over their products because that's what makes them the most cash.

Yes, that explains the cloudy stuff. But that isn't the definition of 'smart' appliances. I have stuff that does the same clever bits but without external data hoovering or cloud. A simple example is an RGB LED strip which you can control from a phone app. I think it's clever - one of the things you can do is point your camera at something to make the LEDs show exactly that colour - so I think it would qualify as 'smart'. Maybe even IoT since it's networked, but it there isn't a cloud in sight.

If it works for you in a way that is customizable and does what you want then fine,I find that worthy of such a name but when it doesn't do what I want it to do anymore and the people  behind it start dictating, remotely restricting it that it needs internet and their website in existence for it operate it when that wasn't the case before. That is what I am against.

[MrMobodies]

Are they effectively calling you stupid? I think there is some element of mansplaining involved where you don't appreciate being told what you (think you) already know, and being told in really simple terms.
Edit: To clarify, I am not suggesting you are somehow wrong to be complaining about this stuff. It's obviously pissed you off, and kudos for actually making the effort to do something about it. But it's important to recognise that they are not dissing you, Mr Nobodies.

New word to me "mansplaining"

Explaining (something) in a condescending or self-righteous manner,especially as a man to a woman."

self-righteous
having or characterized by a certainty, especially an unfounded one, that one is totally correct or morally superior.

I am sorry if I am like that. I was treated like that right up in my 20's due to my condition. Unfortunately I have a language processing disorder that makes everything difficult for me to understand at first. I was fobbed off,  refused help, given fancy sounding names for things that didn't mean anything as opposed to the real help that had to be fought for me and had to fight for everything.

Now you can see why I am sensitive to hearing certain words or combinations of words where it is unclear or open interpretation to mean other things and I am bound to get as you say "p*ssed off" when I am lied in a way when it is blatantly obvious.

If I ask a question and realize that someone doesn't know much about something I wouldn't take offense unless they claim to.

[PlainName]

I am sorry if I am like that

Ah, I think you have it arse about face. I meant that it is them mansplaining to their customers (of whom you are one) that might get up your nose. Although I can see how it could be interpreted to mean you mansplain, that wasn't actually what I meant.

Sorry for not being clear enough.

Edit: In your example, the way they gloss over how you connect to their cloud to do everything, and make out the Ethernet port is too complicated to explain to you, is what I was driving at.

[Circlotron]

New word to me "mansplaining"

Explaining (something) in a condescending or self-righteous manner,especially as a man to a woman."

It occurred to me the other day that if someone ever accuses you of mansplaining then it follows that they know what a man is. Point this out to them and ask them to define what a man is. Seeing many people are unable to do that nowadays it should shut them up.

[SiliconWizard]

New word to me "mansplaining"

Explaining (something) in a condescending or self-righteous manner,especially as a man to a woman."

It occurred to me the other day that if someone ever accuses you of mansplaining then it follows that they know what a man is. Point this out to them and ask them to define what a man is. Seeing many people are unable to do that nowadays it should shut them up.

 

[MrMobodies]

Sorry I didn't understand that but I see now that that is possibly a joke judging from SiliconWizard reply and the smiley emoji thing.

Can someone please explain that means?

[Nominal Animal]

Sorry I didn't understand that but I see now that that is possibly a joke judging from SiliconWizard reply and the smiley emoji thing.

Can someone please explain that means?

Circlotron pointed out how silly the term "mansplaining" is, that's all.

The same people who love to use the term "mansplaining", also get flustered and refuse to answer when asked to define "woman" or "man".

SiliconWizard's reaction was laughter, because the use of the term by these people is a catch-22: either they have to define "man" (which they will not or cannot), or they are using the term "mansplaining" fully knowing that they cannot define the term, like children who use "big words" to impress others without knowing what they mean.

[MrMobodies]

I see, so you can't accuse a women of mansplaining.

If a woman done it it would be "womansplaining" and I see on search the term also exists for them:
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Womansplaining

I see the joke now.
So he'd only be right if it was directed at a man and not just anybody.

Thanks for sharing. So nice to explain to me and I appreciate that otherwise I'd feel left out.

Just thought of something:
What about transvestites, you know like Fran Blanche?
I don't think it would apply to her anyway as I never found Fran Blanche condescending.

[Someone]

Is it possible say they don't intend to treat me like I am stupid but in effect they are doing it without actually realizing subconsciously?

Its a symptom of modern "complicated" technology being sold and exposed to the unwashed masses. Once upon a time all that data/customisation would have been only available to "higher level" operators/installers/businesses, but now some of it is exposed to customers in some over simplified way.

You are part of the 0.0 something percent of the customers who could actually make use of anything beyond the cloud solution, but the cost to document and support that at a consumer level is too high for the product manufacturer. The higher level installer/OEM documentation is probably insufficient for your wishes too! lots of these industrial solutions only document a few bits and leave the rest for guessing/reverse engineering (or buying some consulting/support from the manufacturer). Even when its "cloud" you often see silly things like only supporting XXX OS version YYY or newer, purely for them to save money, you can replace working hardware because they dont see the cost of that, only the cost to test and support wider software platforms.

Its the same with phone/internet providers, the first level "support" staff read off their pre-prepared script which is often fundamentally incorrect or misleading if you know the underlying technology. As an example: unplug your modem, wait 30 seconds, then plug it in again, solves/answers multiple hardware issues in "one" "simple" instruction. Or that classic, reset everything (settings/config/cookies) to default/clean/shipping state regardless of if that would make a difference or what the costs to the consumer of those steps are. You "buy" something but they will expose as much of the actual operating/ongoing costs to you as they possibly can.

The only solution is to buy things which do what you want on installation, with a contract that specifies what you actually care about. Don't pay until it is working. They are happy to make empty promises and push you through the zero/low cost sales pipeline, because that is no effort for them. Turn it around and make them work to get your business.

[MrMobodies]

You are part of the 0.0 something percent of the customers who could actually make use of anything beyond the cloud solution,

Oh dear.

lots of these industrial solutions only document a few bits and leave the rest for guessing/reverse engineering (or buying some consulting/support from the manufacturer).

That would be the Sunspec Alliance that they are part of that charges a yearly fee to use their development software. Thanks to the opensource community for detailing the registers and building a readymade package otherwise I would have had any monitoring on principle. Something for me to the be grateful about.

Its the same with phone/internet providers, the first level "support" staff read off their pre-prepared script which is often fundamentally incorrect or misleading if you know the underlying technology. As an example: unplug your modem, wait 30 seconds, then plug it in again, solves/answers multiple hardware issues in "one" "simple" instruction. Or that classic, reset everything (settings/config/cookies) to default/clean/shipping state regardless of if that would make a difference or what the costs to the consumer of those steps are. You "buy" something but they will expose as much of the actual operating/ongoing costs to you as they possibly can.

Joke: Pissing and farting about and the total mystery that remains a mystery.

I don't have that problem anymore and this why I go for business broadband where they'd be quick to answer the phones and chase up Openreach. I  have a couple of HG635's in bridge mode to use with this tool I found. Some old pictures from month ago:

It supports syslog too:

Now that is what I call smart.
Tells me what I want to know and quite simple too.

I suppose lot of people wouldn't have a leg to stand on when living with intermittent faults and ma not have the means to prove it. I had Openreach turn up some years ago and they way behaved was like they didn't believe me at all saying they were wasting their time until one line dropped out as I showing them the graphs and it started to change. Also it just stopped raining so that was a hint. So they got the ground team out and turns out the new box in the manhole cover they installed outside wasn't properly sealed.

The only solution is to buy things which do what you want on installation, with a contract that specifies what you actually care about. Don't pay until it is working. They are happy to make empty promises and push you through the zero/low cost sales pipeline, because that is no effort for them. Turn it around and make them work to get your business.

We had many contractors give use a quote. I spoke to manufacturers of these onverters to only find they all did this cloud only nonsense thing. Solaredge did one that had a built in ethernet port and webserver which I was happy with but when I read up about this model this contractor was going to use, the reviews were not good with it failing about two years and something about interference coming from it.

The contractors we chose were quite good and honest about it and in that they noted down what I want and explain what they couldn't provide like that with a onsite monitoring solution. They noted down, no remote cloud affiliation, no wifi stick, any wifi stuff to be switched off after they finish and didn't set any installer password stuff. They said in the contract "customer manages the equipment." They even run me some armored cat6 cables. Also the young gentleman agreed about this the clause in the contract excluding damages to first and third party from viruses/malware/pc code/ hacking as for this "cloud" stuff and that wifi stick thing.

There was a company called Engensa who installed the previous solar panels. In 2012 I specifically asked for mono crystalline panels. Even their website advocated for it. I asked for a Sunnywebbox to go along with the 4kw Sunnyboy inverter but they were saying it is something they don't normally provide and had something better.

It was their own datalogger appliance. I asked, does it have a built in webserver so I can view the info about the strings and voltages, no, it just measures the difference between two meters using a clamp to upload the readings to their website. I said that is useless I don't want it, I want the Sunnywebbox that would tell me all the details.

hey came back and said yes, but it will cost £50 more. Fine. Then they gave us the wrong contract to sign and put up poly crystalline panels when they gave us the paperwork at the end and a box with their datalogger in it. I discovered this after they left. After 2 weeks of arguing with them showing them, pointing out their own pages how they don't recommend poly crystalline they decided to swap the panels around and give me the Sunnywebbox as agreed. Unfortunately as someone said that the contract was signed and some praised the workmanship they charged us a little for the labor of the swap. I didn't sign the contract myself.

Another disappointment was that I was told they could only get hold of the SunnyWebbox with the bluetooth module not the serial one I asked for and the plugin for the inverter. They said they didn't know when it would be available and something I'd have to order myself. I though they were lying so I did look and phone up places selling it but they didn't have stock either at the time and I never got round to ordering it. I was worried that the bluetooth might be vulnerable. Also the power supply they gave me wern't good which I discovered years later after many swaps when it turned to be that. I smashed one apart (they replaced the unit not the power supply so that didn't work) and discovered it worked fine when I plugged it a different 12v one upstairs. Smashed theirs to bits to discover very simple inside with 3 bulging caps.