Open Source Free Energy GoFundMe - Spencer Frame

[LogicDude]

Having tested similar setups I can say it's more complex than you think. For example, each mosfet has a body diode which allows a reversed electron current to flow from the drain to source given the chance. As well, the mosfet turned on allows a current flow in one wire which wants to induce an opposite current flow through the body diode in all the other wires when the magnetic field is expanding but not when contracting. So we have periodic conduction currents, induced currents and a constantly changing external magnetic field from the rotor all interacting in different ways in any given instance.

I'm going to guess from your post you did not consider any of the above.

Yeah, I forgot all about that pesky body diode.  You raise a really interesting and important point.  The way drive coil is wired up makes it a one-to-one autotransformer.

The design has an 8-channel DIP switch to enable/disable each MOSFET circuit.  Let's assume the DIP switches enable/disable the signals going to the gate driver chips.  The picture of the beta board looks like that.

The guy that built the MOSFET driver board is in Ontario and he sent the assembled boards to Spencer in British Columbia - presumably without hooking it up to an eight-wire autotransformer drive coil and testing it.  I don't think Spencer is capable of checking for the body diode current problem.

Let's assume you are right and you pointed out an important flaw in the design.  The pulse motor seems to be running fine in many clips, but it's not clear if the MOSFET driver board is fully wired up to the drive coil or how many MOSFETs are switching in the videos.  So there are a lot of uncertainties.

Body diodes conducting current is a bad thing.  The MOSFET(s) that are switching current ON are being countered by body diode currents in the opposite direction.  Hence decreased net magnetic flux in the coil and a loss of battery energy.  What is there to consider beyond that?  Did you consider the ramifications of you correctly pointing out the body diode problem?

Spencer seems to think that enabling more MOSFET channels is going to make the drive coil "more powerful with more current flow and a stronger magnetic field."

Just for fun, let's assume the body diode current problem is not happening.  So, I am saying that as Spencer selectively flips the DIP switches ON, nothing is going to happen and it will make no difference at all in the operation of the pulse motor.

Do you understand my reasoning for stating that?

Thanks,

LogicDude

[LogicDude]

*** Just some editing to insert the coil into the diagrams and change the nomenclature for clarity.

You know how sometimes you think something through and you post it and then shortly after that you have a
moment of fear and doubt that you screwed up?

I think this is one of those moments.

I was thinking about the 1:1 autotransformer operation.

Each coil wire is attached to +12V and the other end to the MOSFETs and then to ground.

[+12V]-------[Coil wire1]---------------------------[MOSFET1]---- [Gnd]
[+12V]-------[Coil wire2]---------------------------[MOSFET2]---- [Gnd]

When MOSFET1 switches ON then current flow starts to increase:

[+12V]-------[Coil wire1]--------->-------->------[MOSFET1]---- [Gnd]   (increasing current flow)
[+12V]-------[Coil wire2]---------------------------[MOSFET2]---- [Gnd]

So, the autotransformer response would like for this to happen:

[+12V]-------[Coil wire1]--------->-------->------[MOSFET1]---- [Gnd]   (increasing current flow)
[+12V]-------[Coil wire2]---------<--------<------[MOSFET2]---- [Gnd]   (this will not happen in Coil wire2)

HOWEVER it does NOT happen for a simple reason.  It's a 1:1 autotransformer and it will induce a certain amount of EMF in the Coil wire2.  For any current to flow through the MOSFET2 body diode and then through the Coil wire2 the EMF induced in Coil wire2 would have to be higher than 12 volts.  But the EMF will not be higher than 12 volts and no current will flow and the run battery will not get charged.

So, just about all of my previous posting was a bunch of useless hot air.  Doh!

And that means my final question to Electrodynamic still applies.

LogicDude

[LogicDude]

I am just going to clarify my use of terminology for the term "autotransformer."

The drive coil has eight separate wires with each wire connected to the +12 volt battery terminal on one end and the other ends are connected to the drain pins of of eight separate MOSFETs on a MOSFET driver board.

[+12V]-------[Coil wire1]---------------------------[MOSFET1]---- [Gnd]
[+12V]-------[Coil wire2]---------------------------[MOSFET2]---- [Gnd]
[+12V]-------[Coil wire3]---------------------------[MOSFET3]---- [Gnd]
   .
   .
   .
[+12V]-------[Coil wire8]---------------------------[MOSFET8]---- [Gnd]

So, if you look at just two wires, this looks like a transformer with a primary and a secondary where one connection of the "primary" wire and one connection of the "secondary" wire are shorted together and connected to the +12 volt battery terminal.

This effectively gives you a single wire wrapped around a common core with multiple transformer taps on the wire.  That is indeed an autotransformer.  However, it's not quite the same as a standard autotransformer wiring configuration.

LogicDude

[LogicDude]

And the puzzler remains:

Why is it cockamamie nonsense to believe that flipping DIP switches to selectively add more and more MOSFETs to pulse the drive coil will change the operation of the pulse motor?

A single MOSFET will do the job just fine and the other seven MOSFETs are useless.  Imagine, if you have four drive coils (like they plan to build), then you need a whopping 32 MOSFETs and all of the wiring that entails if you are a true blind believer.

It's all about the noble quest to fight against the quackery and the woo.

They did land on the moon!  I swear it's true!

[LogicDude]

A video update including showing you the MOSFET boards.

Shucks, I still don't know how to embed a watchable video in my posting.

Pushing the boundaries of what’s possible with clean energy and Tesla-inspired tech. We've got our Version 1.5 pulse motor running at 36 volts for over 8 hours straight, and we're about to scale it up with four boards and a solid copper bus bar.

This is DIY science at its best, proving there's more to electricity and free energy than meets the eye. Stay tuned for the full video and see how we’re turning the tables on conventional physics!

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1ekWGilUhvc

[unseenninja]

All you're achieving here is to legitimise what this clown is doing. The more links there are here on EEVBlog to his YouTube videos, the more google will push his nonsense.

We all know he is a fool chasing fool's gold. Nothing will ever come from his "experiments" except false claims of achieving over-unity results.

[PlainName]

A single MOSFET will do the job just fine and the other seven MOSFETs are useless.

RDS(on) will be lower with more in parallel. No idea if that would make a useful difference in this project.

[UnijunctionTransistor]

I can only thank all the lucky stars in the night sky, that this “civil engineer” Spencer Frame is not actually building bridges or levees.

[coromonadalix]

well well another scam thread  loll   remember the one we had months ago  about free energy with gimmicks /  turbines, impellers  put in water ..

we should have somekind of a "scoreboard" about theses totally useless threads loll

[Electrodynamic]

Logicdude

HOWEVER it does NOT happen for a simple reason.  It's a 1:1 autotransformer and it will induce a certain amount of EMF in the Coil wire2.  For any current to flow through the MOSFET2 body diode and then through the Coil wire2 the EMF induced in Coil wire2 would have to be higher than 12 volts.  But the EMF will not be higher than 12 volts and no current will flow and the run battery will not get charged.

Yes, even if the induced voltage was 12v it would still have to overcome the wire voltage drop of around 2.5v and the diode voltage drop of 0.7-1.2v.

I was just pointing out we have periodic conduction currents, induced currents and a constantly changing external magnetic field from the rotor all interacting in different ways in any given instance. As you can see it's not as simple as a single pulse into a coil repelling a magnet.

I'm not claiming I agree with Spencer or his theories only that I find the ideas interesting. I like new ideas not the same old crap going nowhere.

For example, the open core of a pulse motor tends to act more like a pure inductor when the coil core is between rotor magnets. I even experimented with a residual magnetism motor concept. Here we energize the coil between the rotor magnets having it act more like a real inductor in a DC/DC converter. The residual magnetism generally considered a loss then becomes the motive force. Of course it's very low power but also very efficient because we are capitalizing on an inherent system loss. The gradient of force between an ideal inductor and one saturated by the rotor magnet then becomes a rotor motive force vs efficiency curve. Similar to a rotary transformer with a new twist.

It's interesting work because this kind of stuff isn't on anyone's radar and there are many unknowns.

[unseenninja]

It's interesting work because this kind of stuff isn't on anyone's radar and there are many unknowns.

Misguided people have been making these contraptions for decades. None of them have ever succeeded breaking basic physics with one.

It's only interesting from the point of view of morbid curiosity.

[LogicDude]

Electrodynamic,

If I was on the bench with their pulse motor, I would be fascinated to investigate the interaction between the energizing pulse coming from the MOSFET and the the passing rotor magnets.  I already made a posting about that.  I would energize the drive coil with no rotor magnet present, and then with the passing rotor magnets.  I would compare the two current waveforms and want to explain the differences.

Alas, there is a distinct possibility that Spencer will never look at the current waveform going through the drive coil.  It's the most important signal of all to look at.

In that latest clip he is showing very thin high-voltage spikes on his DSO.  I explained to him in great detail that those are not his infamous "high voltage spikes coming from the drive coil to excite the batteries into over unity" and instead they were just because of the length of wire, and its associated inductance, between the drive coil and the charging battery bank.  He is ignoring what I said and chances are he will not investigate this.  There is also an undershoot and that is explainable by some stray capacitance and the inductance in the wires creating some LC ringing.  Hence, nothing to do with "radiant energy" or anything like that.

LogicDude

[PlainName]

I explained to him in great detail ...

You are wasting your time. He is too committed to this being real and cannot entertain anything that would suggest he is wrong about all this, so is impenetrable to whatever proof or explanation. And particularly explanation because he hasn't got a clue. If you think some of the joke stuff is complete garbled word salad, that's what your explanation sounds like to him.

[temperance]

Besides, what are we supposed to do with all this free energy?

[Electrodynamic]

LogicDude

If I was on the bench with their pulse motor, I would be fascinated to investigate the interaction between the energizing pulse coming from the MOSFET and the the passing rotor magnets.  I already made a posting about that.  I would energize the drive coil with no rotor magnet present, and then with the passing rotor magnets.  I would compare the two current waveforms and want to explain the differences.

It's very easy to do and I just applied different PWM signals to the coil while slowly spinning the rotor. If we use the coil-core as a DC-DC converter then the efficiency increases between rotor magnets and decreases as the rotor magnets field saturates the core. It's no different than any inductor being partially saturated by an external field. When the magnetic domains in the core are fixed by any external field this leaves less domains able to flip storing energy thus the inductance drops. In effect, it acts like a smaller core than it is because of the external field.

Alas, there is a distinct possibility that Spencer will never look at the current waveform going through the drive coil.  It's the most important signal of all to look at.

It's mind boggling and I have quite a few $3 ACS712 30A just collecting dust. Spenser needs to pick up his game.

In that latest clip he is showing very thin high-voltage spikes on his DSO.  I explained to him in great detail that those are not his infamous "high voltage spikes coming from the drive coil to excite the batteries into over unity" and instead they were just because of the length of wire, and its associated inductance, between the drive coil and the charging battery bank.  He is ignoring what I said and chances are he will not investigate this.  There is also an undershoot and that is explainable by some stray capacitance and the inductance in the wires creating some LC ringing.  Hence, nothing to do with "radiant energy" or anything like that.

It's an interesting phenomena. For example, when the coil is switched on one conductor as shown in your diagram the voltage spike (inductive discharge) occurs on the switch opening. However if we switch the coil on both conductors simultaneously we tend to see a voltage spike on the switch closure and opening. Like so, (+12v)----switch-----Coil-----switch-----(-Gnd)

[+12V]-------[Coil wire1]---------------------------[SWITCH]---- [Gnd]
Note that in your diagram the connection wire and coil is connected to the (+) terminal thus already has a large (+) surface charge. The surface charge changes little on switch closure. However if we switch on both conductors simultaneously the coil generally has a neutral surface charge. So both switch closing and opening can cause an abrupt change in voltage thus current and have a similar effect. Little details matter.

Technically the voltage spikes are considered radiant energy, ie. any energy which radiates outward from a point. This is true because the effect radiates energy in the RF band and can be heard by any nearby radio. If it radiates it's radiant energy.

[paul cotter]

Anyone who has worked on switch mode PSUs could easily explain all the supposed phenomena that this guy is claiming. They are all entirely normal easily explained everyday occurrences.

[LogicDude]

Electrodynamic,

Note that the eight-wire drive coil for this pulse motor is air-core.  But I get your discussion about the magnetic domains.

The ACS712 looks like a really cool part for current sensing.  And they are so cheap!  Here I am talking old school and using a current sensing resistor.  I haven't been on a bench or played with electronics in more than 30 years and clearly it shows sometimes.  There are so many new parts that I am unaware of.  I don't really "know" the ACS712 but from glancing at the datasheet it really looks like it can do the job.  It makes me almost angry that Spencer has never made a move towards measuring the drive coil current.

For what it's worth, when I am in my car and listening to music on the radio, I don't have a clue who I am listening to anymore more than 95% of the time.

I am not sold on your discussion about surface charge but I know you have your own outlook and own techniques and I will respect that.  As far as "radiant energy" goes in the context of what I am talking about, that is a John Bedini pseudoscience term.

If I can give you some advice it's to recognize when some data is either insignificant or irrelevant and to throw it out based on rational reasoning principles.

Okay, two more postings to explain why the eight-MOSFET business is nonsensical junk.

LogicDude

[LogicDude]

So, why is the business about eight MOSFETs driving eight separate wires in the drive coil an exercise in nonsense because a single MOSFET will do the job just fine?

Here is the answer in the form of a thought experiment:

Let's say you have a 100-turn drive coil using a thick gauge of wire.

One end of the wire is connected to +12V and the other end of the wire is connected to a MOSFET that switches to ground.

Now, suppose you imagine that you slice the thick wire cross section into two equal halves along the entire length of the wire using a magic x-acto blade.

One end of the pair of wires is connected to +12V and the other end of the pair of wires is connected to two MOSFETs that switch to ground.

Note that it is exactly the same coil.  The same inductance, the same current waveform, the same everything.  The two MOSFETs do exactly the same thing and they look just like a single MOSFET.

So, exactly the same thing will happen if you slice the thick wire cross section into eight pie slices using a magic x-acto blade.

[LogicDude]

So, let's look at this:

You have a drive coil with eight separate wires and you start testing it with one active MOSFET, then two active MOSFETs, and then three active MOSFETs.

[+12V]-------[Coil wire1]---------------------------[MOSFET1]---- [Gnd]


[+12V]-------[Coil wire1]---------------------------[MOSFET1]---- [Gnd]
[+12V]-------[Coil wire2]---------------------------[MOSFET2]---- [Gnd]


[+12V]-------[Coil wire1]---------------------------[MOSFET1]---- [Gnd]
[+12V]-------[Coil wire2]---------------------------[MOSFET2]---- [Gnd]
[+12V]-------[Coil wire3]---------------------------[MOSFET3]---- [Gnd]

If you get my thought experiment then all three configurations above are essentially exactly the same with the same inductance and the same rising current waveform with one exception. The exception is that the effective coil resistance will be lower the more wires you are driving with more MOSFETs.

So, is that lower effective coil resistance relevant or not?  The wire resistance is 3.2 ohms per strand.

One strand gives 3.2 ohms, two strands 1.6 ohms, three strands 1.07 ohms.

Let's look at the coil energizing cycle and we have to make a few assumptions because we are missing some data.

The MOSFET(s) switch ON and the initial current flow is zero and the instantaneous coil impedance is infinity.

Say 25 milliseconds later the MOSFET(s) switch OFF and the current flow is 200 milliamps and the instantaneous coil impedance is (12/0.2) = 60 ohms.

So, in all three cases the instantaneous coil impedance of 60 ohms is significantly higher than the wire resistance plus the MOSFET ON resistance.

A single MOSFET driving a single wire will give you almost identical results to three or more MOSFETs driving three or more wires.

The final current flow when the single MOSFET switches OFF will be just slightly lower as compared to the case with more wires and more MOSFETs.  You can easily compensate for this difference if you want to by keeping the single MOSFET switched ON for just a little bit more time.

The whole business with the eight wires and the eight MOSFETs for the drive coil is an exercise in nonsense and lack of understanding.  You gain nothing by driving the coil with eight MOSFETs.

LogicDude

[Electrodynamic]

Electrodynamic,

Note that the eight-wire drive coil for this pulse motor is air-core.  But I get your discussion about the magnetic domains.

The ACS712 looks like a really cool part for current sensing.  And they are so cheap!  Here I am talking old school and using a current sensing resistor.  I haven't been on a bench or played with electronics in more than 30 years and clearly it shows sometimes.  There are so many new parts that I am unaware of.  I don't really "know" the ACS712 but from glancing at the datasheet it really looks like it can do the job.  It makes me almost angry that Spencer has never made a move towards measuring the drive coil current.

For what it's worth, when I am in my car and listening to music on the radio, I don't have a clue who I am listening to anymore more than 95% of the time.

I am not sold on your discussion about surface charge but I know you have your own outlook and own techniques and I will respect that.  As far as "radiant energy" goes in the context of what I am talking about, that is a John Bedini pseudoscience term.

If I can give you some advice it's to recognize when some data is either insignificant or irrelevant and to throw it out based on rational reasoning principles.

Okay, two more postings to explain why the eight-MOSFET business is nonsensical junk.

LogicDude

It may help to clarify my stance on this, I agree with you on almost everything said and have seen nothing to suggest they have produced excess energy. They seem to be throwing different stuff together and seeing what sticks. Similar to what I'm doing by throwing out concepts and observations which may or may not apply.

I am not sold on your discussion about surface charge but I know you have your own outlook and own techniques and I will respect that.  As far as "radiant energy" goes in the context of what I am talking about, that is a John Bedini pseudoscience term.

On radiant energy here is the formal definition which is no more ambiguous than voltage or current.

Radiant energy is the energy carried by electromagnetic waves. This includes a wide range of wave types—such as visible light, ultraviolet (UV) light, infrared (IR), X-rays, gamma rays, and even radio waves.

Here we could ask a reasonable question, if a device seems to be getting energy from "somewhere" what is the most probable somewhere?. We don’t have to invent mysterious sources and there is already lots of energy moving around in the environment. Of all the forms we know about the electromagnetic stuff such as fields, waves and radiation are the most likely. Ergo, radiant energy is a valid explanation.

It's good to see you have an active and curious mind and are willing to explore new ideas. Like most, I won't believe it until I see it but it's interesting to throw new ideas around.

[paul cotter]

"Radiant energy" is a common theme with the free energy/overunity crowd along with "cold electricity"(don't ask!). The interpretation they cling to is NOT the same as the accepted use of this term. They ascribe "radiant" to fast high voltage transients such as one gets with inductor commutation and deem it to be especially useful for battery charging. The amount of stray radiation in the environment is negligible unless one is close to a transmission tower, otherwise we would see anomalies in unscreened circuitry all the time.

[Electrodynamic]

"Radiant energy" is a common theme with the free energy/overunity crowd along with "cold electricity"(don't ask!). The interpretation they cling to is NOT the same as the accepted use of this term. They ascribe "radiant" to fast high voltage transients such as one gets with inductor commutation and deem it to be especially useful for battery charging. The amount of stray radiation in the environment is negligible unless one is close to a transmission tower, otherwise we would see anomalies in unscreened circuitry all the time.

The universally accepted scientific definition of Radiant Energy is the energy carried by electromagnetic radiation, which includes visible light, X-rays, and thermal radiation. It can be described in terms of discrete packets of energy called photons or as continuous electromagnetic waves, and its SI unit is the joule (J).

It's also universally accepted that HV and superconductors dissipate little or no energy as heat and tend to operate near room temperature. Nothing dodgy about it and this is why most modern countries are moving to AC and DC Ultra High Voltage transmission lines upwards of 1000 kV or 1 million volts.

As well, the newest most efficient motors are HV/electrostatic and run cool.
https://www.geeky-gadgets.com/electrostatic-motor-vs-traditional-motor/
https://www.controleng.com/new-electrostatic-motor-design-90-less-copper-no-magnets-ultra-efficiency/

[TimFox]

Superconductors do not normally work close to room temperature, except at extreme pressures.
At ambient pressure, we’re up to maybe 133 K.
Since room temperature operation would have huge economic benefits, there is great interest and research into developing it, like unto the Holy Grail, so this may change, maybe during my lifetime.
It’s been the wave of the future since my student days, ca. AD 1970.
In current technology, “high temperature superconductor” normally means T_c > 78 K, allowing liquid nitrogen cooling instead of hydrogen or helium.

The advantage of HV transmission is obvious due to resistance loss, constrained by corona and practical insulation issues.

[LogicDude]

Perhaps a little bit of comedic relief.  I caught a comment on Spencer's latest video short:

The posting:

@krisss369
9 hours ago
Hi, great work thank you for sharing.

two questions, how you measure the output with oscilloscope? Every time when I connect  a battery to a bedini, the spikes are disappear and I get only the baseline voltage of batterie. Without charging batteries I get Spikes from 200-600V on oscilloscope too. But connectring any load (batteries) the spikes disappear immediately.

Did you share your schematas of your batterie swapper/pcbs? This would be awesome.

continued success.

The response from Spencer:

@MadscienceLPTECH
9 hours ago (edited)
Ill show the battery swappers this next video.

No pcbs needed

Maybe you just need a better scope?

Maybe you just need a better scope???

In Spencer's clips the pitch has always been "The drive coil is going to send high-voltage spikes to the battery and that will induce the batteries to create an over unity condition."  It is literally central to his pitch.

I told Spencer repeatedly, at least half a dozen times, that a discharging inductor acts like a current source and there will be no high-voltage spikes observed on the charge battery.  A current source is not a source of voltage, it's a source of current.

Yes, there is a skinny "phantom" high-voltage spike that will appear if the wire lengths are long between the drive coil and the charging battery bank and I explained that also.  Spencer did not get the explanation at all, it flew right past him.

LogicDude

[LogicDude]

There is a very cool 'trick' that can be used by any people that are curious and just learning about electronics to understand the operation of any pulse motor.

Electrical components have their mechanical equivalents in the physical world and vice-versa.

A mechanical equivalent of an inductor is a flywheel.  The size of the flywheel is equivalent to the inductance of an inductor.  The torque on the flywheel is equivalent to voltage across an inductor.  The rotational speed of the flywheel is equivalent to the current flowing though an inductor.

This part is a bit more difficult, and requires some abstract thinking.  A no-load condition on an inductor is a short circuit across the inductor.  An infinite load condition on an inductor is an open circuit across the inductor.  So, how does this translate into the flywheel equivalent?

And when you think about all of this, you can explain everything about how a pulse motor works including the high-voltage spikes when the charging battery is disconnected.  You can even explain the "phantom" voltage spikes I reference in my previous posting and I explain in a lot more detail in an earlier posting.

LogicDude