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Offline rgaritoTopic starter

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Tesla Recall
« on: February 03, 2021, 06:02:06 am »
This one is strange...

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2020/INRM-EA20003-11321.pdf

Wow...

"Part of this 8GB storage capacity is used each time the vehicle is started. The eMMC NAND cell hardware fails
when the storage capacity is reached, resulting in failure of the MCU. "

Apparently they are wearing out the flash:

"the eMMC NAND cell hardware will fail
when reaching lifetime wear, for which the eMMC controller has no available memory blocks
necessary to recover. With this failure mode, the only recovery available is a replacement of the
eMMC device, achieved by physical part replacement of either the MCU assembly or visual
control module subcomponent"

"At a daily cycle usage rate of 1.4 per block, accumulation of 3,000 P/E cycles would take only 5-6 years. Historically, the
expected life of a vehicle generally far exceeds 5-6 years of service"


Talk about planned obsolesence...
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 06:07:29 am by rgarito »
 
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Offline Berni

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2021, 06:19:24 am »
I hope they are referring to the issue that the eventual self bricking infotainment system that Tesla had a problem with way way back. If this is a separate issue then Tesla learned nothing from there previous blunders.

The first occurrence of a flash problem i heard of had to do with the Linux image on the infotainment system being configured to pump kernel logs to a a filesystem on the main flash chip. This kernel log is constantly spitting out a few lines per second and all this got constantly written to flash. Eventually the flash memory wore out its blocks and ran out of spares, going belly up. So upon the next reboot there is no intact linux image to boot from and so the whole infotainment system would just sit there with a black screen.

Since this would take some years it would end up being a out of warranty repair where Tesla replaces the infotainment unit with a newer one without this issue, and this costs a lot. So one smart guy figured out why they die and fixed the firmware. So for a much lower price of repair he swaps out the flash chip for a new one and flashes in firmware that was hacked to have this problem solved.

Since the big ass touchscreen infotainment system basically controls everything in the car the thing becomes almost a paperweight without it.
 
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Offline thinkfat

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2021, 07:29:59 am »
This DOT letter is about this very issue. They figured now it's a safety issue and are effectively ordering Tesla to "do something substantial" about it, arguing that past software updates only mitigate the issue but not guarantee driver safety. That's pretty serious, because as they now consider the infotainment system being part of the driver safety domain, it is subject to certification. They consider e.g. a rearview camera and window defogging being safety relevant and thus they must not fail, and system design must ensure this and a paper trail must exist as proof. A Tegra 3 running some homegrown Linux system cannot be made compliant, that's entirely out of the question. 

I'm curious how Tesla will respond, because, this might require them to recall the affected vehicles and provide an entirely redesigned infotainment system. That may take years and millions of dollars.

EDIT: or maybe not. It might be enough to make sure that the vehicle doesn't start if this happens, or displays an appropriate warning message if it happens during driving.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 07:38:33 am by thinkfat »
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Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2021, 03:22:15 pm »
The worldwide Automotive Industry, namely the Tier 2, Tier 1 and OEMs, they have very high standards concerning reliability, safety and defects liability, either being safety or simply functionally relevant.
All HW and SW components are designed, manufactured, verified and validated (tested) to the commonly accepted Automotive industry standards to secure that all components and systems are safe and operate w/o defects over the whole span of the cars life, i.e. at least 10 years, for some OEMs even up to 20 years.

The relevant documents for this philosophy (on components) can be found here: http://www.aecouncil.com/AECDocuments.html

'Wear and Tear parts' like the brake are obviously not included, but an eMMC, in interaction with its SW driver and the whole SW application, is of course not regarded as such a wear and tear component. See especially the AEC - Q100-005 - REV-D1

An official recall by the Traffic Safety Administrations (in U.S. or elsewhere) is done only on safety issues.
Anyhow, a long-established OEM will also recall cars with systematic functional defects, even after many years, as the Tier 1 will have to defray the cost of such a recall.

This statement, taken from CNBC:
Quote
Tesla vice president of legal Al Prescott:
“Tesla recognizes that even when a component is not designed to last the life of the vehicle, a defect may still be found if it wears prematurely. However, that is not the case here”

“NHTSA’s anachronistic regulations are unfit for situations where there is no safety defect, but nevertheless the manufacturer immediately can improve vehicle performance, including safety performance, without the cumbersome need for physical repair.”

unveils, that TESLA is not a regular Automotive grade car maker.

Their company philosophy seems to be to produce Consumer grade cars only, as Mr. Prescott evidently admits, that the used component(s) won't last the whole cars life.
I see this very critical, as such an attitude probably affects also the complete design and manufacturing processes.

This TESLA representative obviously also neglects all commonly agreed Automotive safety standards.

Technically speaking: Even optical and acoustic indicators like a simple LED, an LCD icon, or a buzzer / speaker is by convention regarded as safety relevant, as they reflect the status of other safety relevant components or functions. This circumstance is also clearly pointed out by the National Highway Traffic Administration.

This story for me is simply disillusioning, as TESLA is hyped in many publications as THE new innovative car maker, being superior to all the established OEMs.

Nope, they still have to learn about and improve in the real Automotive business.

Frank
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 03:27:53 pm by Dr. Frank »
 
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Online Halcyon

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2021, 01:58:01 am »
Tesla doesn't impress me, what is so innovative about their cars?

Their battery technology is the same as other vehicles (and it's not even 'their' technology).
Their fit and finish is meh including reports of bad paintwork (no competition compared to actual premium vehicles).
They have faced a number of serious recalls already with the latest being this eMMC issue and power steering failures.
They use a proprietary charging system unless you fork out extra money for an adapter.
Their reliability in the long term is yet to be proven.
Significant lack of after-sales dealer support.
Expensive to buy. Expensive to repair/replace components (out of warranty).
Random reboots/software crashes.
Far better alternatives exist from actual proper car companies.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2021, 06:05:58 am »
Quote
what is so innovative about their cars?

You could actually buy them and drive them. They are common as muck now.

Quote
Far better alternatives exist from actual proper car companies.

Now that Tesla has paved the way, the bandwagon is gaining passengers, yes.
 

Offline Berni

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2021, 06:30:46 am »
Tesla was the one that popularized electric cars as actually being cool and worked towards some of the issues of electric cars(like fast charge).

Electric cars used to have an even worse stigma than the Toyota Prius. All the electric cars out there tended to be slow and uglier than even most European eco boxes. The whole thing made even worse as the manufacturers seamed to want there electric cars to stand out as being electric by giving them weird scifi styling that was poorly executed, making them exceptionally ugly. So nobody wanted an electric car.

Then Tesla came along and started making electric cars that actually look fairly good (Apart from maybe the weird fish faced model 3) and gave them the performance to actually be faster than most gasoline powered cars out there. They also stuck in lots of fancy electronic gadgetry to seam like its a more advanced futuristic car. So suddenly people found it cool to drive a one. So these days the major car manufacturers went "Oooh so people want a normal looking car that is electric and goes fast, okay stop making the little electric scifi eco boxes for now"

That being said Tesla is still a bit new to the whole car making business and they don't quite know what they are doing, combined with this being an american made car (they are not exactly known for quality in general) combined with there confident attitude that they can do stuff better than others, treating a car as serviceable as a laptop etc.. So yeah i wouldn't buy a Tesla even if it cost the same as the used gas powered cars i drive.

Tesla is pretty much what you would get if Apple started making cars. Including the ridiculous fanboys.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 06:32:29 am by Berni »
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2021, 06:59:34 am »
Quote
Tesla is pretty much what you would get if Apple started making cars. Including the ridiculous fanboys.

Yes, it struck me that Musk did for electric cars what Jobs did for mobile phones. Nothing new as such but, boy, did it make a difference.
 

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2021, 07:20:09 am »
 :-//
What's dodgy about a recall FFS ?

This thread would be better served in another board:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/

OP, use the Move Topic feature and drop this thread where it might be better suited.
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Offline thinkfat

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2021, 07:37:52 am »
There's nothing dodgy about a recall, but this isn't the topic here.
Everybody likes gadgets. Until they try to make them.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2021, 09:51:04 am »
Quote
Tesla is pretty much what you would get if Apple started making cars. Including the ridiculous fanboys.

Yes, it struck me that Musk did for electric cars what Jobs did for mobile phones. Nothing new as such but, boy, did it make a difference.

I was reading the posts in this thread and I realized I had to respond to this one! 

The cell phone analogy is accurate in more ways than one.  Driving a Tesla with the touch screen interface and the many, many quirks, annoyances and just plain malfunctions is not even slightly different from what you would expect if your cell phone had wheels.  That's what my car is, a cell phone with wheels... oh, and without a cell phone.  The car is data connected over the cell network, but if you need to make an emergency contact, you had better paid your cell phone bill. 

I have to say the car is the greatest vehicle I've ever driven and the worst car I've ever driven.  I've never been able to drive the car even once without having to fight the thing for control of something.  If it isn't fighting me when I try to open the door, it's refusing to go into drive until it decides it is ready.  If it isn't breaking for literally no apparent reason (while on auto pilot) it is sounding an alarm for something it doesn't bother to explain.  It cancels auto pilot mode thinking my hands aren't on the wheel when I'm trying to ignore the nag because I'm watching the intersection in front of me while something odd is happening.  It runs the battery down to zero when I'm grocery shopping for an hour.  Let's not forget that Tesla thinks the big screen in the middle of the dash turning orange after a year or two is a "cosmetic" defect and so not covered by warranty.  The list of "issues" with the car is long indeed.

On the other hand, it is nice to not have to focus so attentively on the road ahead in auto pilot.  It is nice to be able to charge at home and not visit a gas station every week or two.  It's nice to not have to hear an engine starting every time you get in. 

Probably the worst part of owning a Tesla is the service.  I've had my car into the Tesla dealer nearly a dozen times.  There are numerous problems they won't even investigate because they are intermittent... just like the parts of the car that work intermittently.  The service department just punts them away.  It took over a year and a second service center before the rear door sensor was replaced.  Now the same symptom is back, just not as often. 

Teslas are fun, but can be very frustrating cars... but compared to my cell phone, par for the course.
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Offline Syntax Error

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2021, 10:45:24 am »
Imagine, when all Tesla cars are self driving, a 'recall' could be implemented with the vehicles all driving themselves back to the dealership. Unless there is a defect in the self driving system and they 'go zombie', all driving backwards at speed into the same fire hydrant - which their AI learned to recognize from a Google captcha. Would make an interesting movie... Total Tesla Recall - zombie selfdrive apocalypse.
 
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Offline joseph nicholas

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2021, 01:03:44 pm »
Why is it that they along with other car manufactures have decided to delete the spare tire?  In case you haven't noticed you can't get roadside assistance with a blow out on NY State roads from a tow truck company that will take you somewhere other than the exit to the Parkway.
 

Offline Neilm

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2021, 07:20:28 pm »
Why is it that they along with other car manufactures have decided to delete the spare tire?  In case you haven't noticed you can't get roadside assistance with a blow out on NY State roads from a tow truck company that will take you somewhere other than the exit to the Parkway.

Because it makes the car lighter and gives more internal storage space. I have to say in over 25 years of driving I can count on 1 hand the number of times I have had a flat tyre.
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2021, 07:33:47 pm »
I wonder if Tesla needed RAM and moved variables into FLASH? And the push to a MCU2 upgrade? 
It reminds me of Apple products always having cheap minimal memory and after a few OS updates the product is obsolete due to increased memory usage.
"...Tesla texted me options...new MCU2 $3,775 CDN + tax, or refurb MCU $2,600cdn +tax (6 week wait)..."  :wtf:
https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/174248/turn-signal-function-loss

PS. - Old Toyotas had a full size spare, so 5 tires and with rotation you got extra lifetime, it was worth it.
 
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Offline thinkfat

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2021, 07:47:01 pm »
Why is it that they along with other car manufactures have decided to delete the spare tire?  In case you haven't noticed you can't get roadside assistance with a blow out on NY State roads from a tow truck company that will take you somewhere other than the exit to the Parkway.

Because it makes the car lighter and gives more internal storage space. I have to say in over 25 years of driving I can count on 1 hand the number of times I have had a flat tyre.

Well yes, same here, but the thing is, just like with health insurance or seat belts, if you don't have them when you need them, it gets pretty inconvenient quickly. We had a flat tyre two years ago when returning from a family holiday, car stuffed under the roof with kids, kit and kaboodle, on the Autobahn. Took us almost half a day to find a shop who had a tyre of the correct size, speed and load class in stock, to get there and have it mounted. At the end of the day everyone was super exhausted, kids crying over the long journey, wife grumpy on the rear seat between them, not a pleasant experience for everyone. With a spare, story would have been over in two hours tops.
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2021, 09:44:05 pm »
Why is it that they along with other car manufactures have decided to delete the spare tire?  In case you haven't noticed you can't get roadside assistance with a blow out on NY State roads from a tow truck company that will take you somewhere other than the exit to the Parkway.
IDK, My Toyota just came with an emergency repair kit. If you have a spare tire, and it is in your trunk for 10 years, unused, who guarantees, that it will even work? Or it has enough air in it?

"the eMMC NAND cell hardware will fail
when reaching lifetime wear, for which the eMMC controller has no available memory blocks
necessary to recover. With this failure mode, the only recovery available is a replacement of the
eMMC device, achieved by physical part replacement of either the MCU assembly or visual
control module subcomponent"

Compare this with (of all manufacturers) VW was holding back the ID3 launch until they fixed all the software bugs.
We are at the point, that the people of the church of tesla will cheer even for a recall.

new MCU2 $3,775 CDN + tax, or refurb MCU $2,600cdn +tax (6 week wait)...
Pff, lol. Memory full, insert money.
I remember seeing someone complaining that replacing the front door on his Model S cost him more than buying a new hatchback.
And there is no way to repair it anywhere else, because in the factory, they decided to weld aluminium together, and nobody has equipment for it.
 

Offline joseph nicholas

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2021, 11:12:14 pm »
I had a blow out getting onto the Cross Island Parkway form the Grand Central.  Absolutely not way to pull off the road until you get to the marina parking half a mile down the road in my Porsche 997.  First I needed a tow which would only get me to an exit.  Had to come back another day to get a tow from another company to a garage to purchase a new tire.  In total it cost 500 because I picked up a nail but the tire got shredded while driving to the marina parking.  This has cured me from driving without a spare and jack to make a change. 
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2021, 11:19:57 pm »
I wonder if Tesla needed RAM and moved variables into FLASH? And the push to a MCU2 upgrade? 
It reminds me of Apple products always having cheap minimal memory and after a few OS updates the product is obsolete due to increased memory usage.
"...Tesla texted me options...new MCU2 $3,775 CDN + tax, or refurb MCU $2,600cdn +tax (6 week wait)..."  :wtf:
https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/174248/turn-signal-function-loss

PS. - Old Toyotas had a full size spare, so 5 tires and with rotation you got extra lifetime, it was worth it.

In my Tesla, it isn't just the size of the tire, there's also the jack capable of lifting 3 tons... yes, 3 tons!  My car empty weighs 5,600 lbs. or something around 2,500 kg.   Then there's the tire iron.  The last time I tried to remove a wheel from a car I needed one of the X shaped tire irons as the lug nuts were on far too tight to remove with the J shaped wrench. 

No, my tire changing days are over.  AAA is worth the money for sure.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2021, 12:09:01 am »
Quote
If you have a spare tire, and it is in your trunk for 10 years, unused, who guarantees, that it will even work?

The yearly MOT - a  non-suitable spare will be a fail. No MOT = no tax (which will probably also invalidate insurance), so no going anywhere until it is fixed.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2021, 12:11:53 am »
Quote
If you have a spare tire, and it is in your trunk for 10 years, unused, who guarantees, that it will even work?

The yearly MOT - a  non-suitable spare will be a fail. No MOT = no tax (which will probably also invalidate insurance), so no going anywhere until it is fixed.

Presence and condition of a spare wheel is not checked for an MOT.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2021, 12:30:16 am »
Quote
If you have a spare tire, and it is in your trunk for 10 years, unused, who guarantees, that it will even work?

The yearly MOT - a  non-suitable spare will be a fail. No MOT = no tax (which will probably also invalidate insurance), so no going anywhere until it is fixed.

Presence and condition of a spare wheel is not checked for an MOT.
'Tis in NZ.
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2021, 12:33:29 am »
Quote
If you have a spare tire, and it is in your trunk for 10 years, unused, who guarantees, that it will even work?

The yearly MOT - a  non-suitable spare will be a fail. No MOT = no tax (which will probably also invalidate insurance), so no going anywhere until it is fixed.

Presence and condition of a spare wheel is not checked for an MOT.
'Tis in NZ.

Right, but that's a WoF. And apparently you still use stickers, which is kinda cute.

E: And having reviewed the WoF manual.. nope. Only checks that it's secure if present. You're failed for having a space-saver fitted though.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 12:38:00 am by Monkeh »
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2021, 12:34:16 am »
Quote
If you have a spare tire, and it is in your trunk for 10 years, unused, who guarantees, that it will even work?

The yearly MOT - a  non-suitable spare will be a fail. No MOT = no tax (which will probably also invalidate insurance), so no going anywhere until it is fixed.

Presence and condition of a spare wheel is not checked for an MOT.
'Tis in NZ.

Should be checked here but often isn't. Last time my bloke asked to check it, I popped the hatch and said it's under all that shit there, mate.

Nobody knows what condition it's in.
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: Tesla Recall
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2021, 12:40:41 am »
So Tesla has 'voluntarily' issued a bare-bones recall, while insisting that their electronic systems are only made to last 5-6 years.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-computer-touchscreen-recall-nhtsa-designed-for-6-years-2021-2
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 


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