YeaLink cloud phones (ISP'S charging a license per handset)

[MrMobodies]

My ISP had been trying to offer me a deal to half my broadband costs by terminating the analogue landline portion and offering me these cloud voip/sip phones. They are "free" to be given out but they want £10 a month license fee per handset or £5 if I purchase them outright so it would never belong to me. It is something I would never want. I'd either want a phone system/handset I could setup and manage directly from the units myself to use with other stuff and services, if licensed, a lifetime license I can buy and continue to work and transfer to other replacements handsets.

From what I understand they are not compatible with existing DECT phones and no bridges. I was told that the handsets could make calls simultaneously which is great for a call center but not appropriate for my setting in a house where I need more than one handset but only one active caller per a line at a time plus there is a feature on my existing phone that if someone else calls they'd be a notification. With this deal which is all they have to offer I feel locked in and that is something don't want so I cancelled the proposal.

Anyway I'd thought it looked like a nice phone and system with lots features on it's own so I looked further and found quite a few good reviews that it does as advertised.

w53 handset:
https://www.yealink.com/product/voice-communication-w53h



w80h base:
https://www.yealink.com/product/voice-communication-w80

But I found some stuff that is also a big nono.

https://americanmilitarynews.com/2022/01/report-us-govt-desk-phones-could-be-spying-for-china/

Not taking in account what they have claimed to have found and the speculation:

Report: US gov’t desk phones could be spying for China
JANUARY 11, 2022 RYAN MORGAN

Chain Security authored the report on the Yealink phones and found that the phone and Yealink’s Device Management Platform (DMP) include features that allow 1 Yealink administrators in China to turn on and access call-recording features from their end.

The Yealink DMP Service Agreement also explicitly requires users to accept the laws of the People’s Republic of China (PRC) and agree to arbitrate all legal disputes in China’s Xiamen province. A related set of service terms also state’s 2 Yealink may actively monitor its users when required by the “national interest” of the Chinese government.

1 The Yealink phone system also does not provide digital certificates, 2 notifying users of potential unauthorized software changes. This makes it harder for users to recognize if their phone systems are being compromise

1 I don't want to give some company in China especially one I never heard off before direct control to equipment in my house.
2 So the connection is secure on the user's end but China's end it doesn't matter as they can do what they like to the phone remotely.

Any phone contract I'd want the equipment, management and service setup through infrastructure in the country I live and controlled by people who live here and not in or through China and any firmware update or change to be given to the ISP first for testing and then issued gradually by them and not done through some portal setup by a company in China or when that Chinese company feels like it. According to the website they use Amazon cloud services but I am not if that is the same with the handsets.

https://sofrep.com/news/why-your-yealink-phone-maybe-transmitting-your-information-to-chinese-government/

Your Yealink Phone Maybe Spying On You For The Chinese Government
by SOFREP Feb 4, 2022

Second, they found that the T54W had poor security behavior, where data exchanges were happening every time the phone would reboot. The phone allegedly would send an encrypted message to a Chinese server and receive another encrypted message in return. These were all happening without the user’s knowledge.

Third, they also discovered that the phones in question were “highly susceptible to unauthorized remote access,” which could be used for a cyberattack. The T54W was said to be configured to accept digital certificates from China. Interestingly, one of these certificate authorities was blocked by Google due to initiating Man-In-The-Middle (MITM) attacks. In a conflict between the U.S. and China, the Communists could shut down telecommunications using these devices in an instant

What do you think?

[jc101]

The standard UK (Plain Old Telephone Service) POTS line will be going, pretty soon.  Everyone will have a VoIP service delivered via their broadband router (or Cable router if Virgin).  These will let you use your normal POTS phone handsets (well, almost all, Virgin I hear has issues with some things and Caller ID failing).  This will free up the analogue audio bandwidth and enable faster broadband too, so not all bad.  Some users may get a battery backup too, as when this change happens if the power goes out so does your phone.

If your ISP isn't also the same company who handle your phone number then there can also be porting problems when trying to keep your number.  Virgin have hacked off countless people who wanted to VoIP their home phone before they were forced to and have lost home phone numbers they have had for decades in some cases.

The VoIP router with a POTS port on it should be a standard offering, does your ISP not offer this?

Edit to add that Yealink do IP DECT basestations, which can have several handsets (they do need to be Yealink ones though, as the handsets are IP handsets internally).  They can all be set to ring at once for the incoming call.  I use a Yealink W52 basestation with 3 handsets for home/office - though that is against a small IP PBX rather than a a cloud service, though no reason why it shouldn't work the same.

[PlainName]

What do you think?

I'd tell the ISP to FRO. I'd also be switching to a different ISP as a matter of some urgency.

[PlainName]

If your ISP isn't also the same company who handle your phone number then there can also be porting problems when trying to keep your number.

I ported my business POTS phone numbers to Voipfone without any problem. Got an Obi202 (obsolete but works fine, alternatives exist) for breaking out as fake POTS and a DECT system plugs into that giving me multiple wireless handsets just like the old system.

I pay £3/mnth per geo number (the line's original number is free) and call costs are so reasonable I couldn't even tell you what they are. Other than that there are no fees (of course, there is broadband but that would exist regardless of the phones).

[AndyC_772]

I switched from my BT POTS phone, which was becoming ridiculously expensive, by:

- signing up for a VoIP account with Soho66, testing it out for a week or so, then porting my number (easily done)
- buying a Gigaset N300IP DECT VoIP base station, which converts my existing DECT phones into VoIP handsets
- installing the free, open source software MicroSIP on my PC. This, together with a Jabra headset, is what I now use for calls 99% of the time.

As for "licensing" a handset for £10/mo, especially with those T&C's attached? Yikes. The word "no" doesn't even come close.

[madires]

If you want some security put all VoIP devices in a VLAN without internet access and run your own SIP server (several SOHO routers come with a SIP server, e.g. FritzBox which also includes a DECT base).

[Bud]

Any network/equipment related issues and you lose 911 emergency access. Keep that in mind when switching from landline to VOIP.

[Howardlong]

I regret going the VOIP route. BT is my provider and they issue Yealink VOIP phones. It’s a very long story, but the only reason for me to go VOIP was that they’d be able to move my number across from Virgin. I’d had the number for 30 years, originally it was a BT number. I’m a mile away from where the number was originally issued by BT, but it’s a different exchange so VOIP was the only way to transfer the number.

Of course, after six months of no service, they couldn’t move the number, and I couldn’t get Virgin & BT to discuss to resolve.

So I told BT I’d just go back to POTS with a new number and forget about VOIP. Well they persuaded me to go VOIP. The problem now is that if I want more than one handset I have to pay an extra subscription, like BT in the 70s. With POTS today, I could just go out and bought bundled DECT handsets with a single base unit. In his regard this is BT going back in time 40 years.

And yes, I’ve had a marketing call in the past week from BT too along similar lines, although they were trying to get me to move my two cellular accounts over to them. I explained that I have two separate cellular accounts with different providers in case there is a coverage problem with one of them, but the salesperson was having none of it.

[Halcyon]

I don't understand this subscription-based or handset licencing fee for VoIP. You're already paying for a data service.

Over here, most ISPs will give you a landline phone number for nothing (but there are different "packages" available for a monthly fee depending on the volume and type of calls you make). I use mine for inbound calls only so I don't need a calling package. The ISP simply provides a username/password and VoIP server address and the rest is up to me. I have it configured so that FreePBX authenticates with my provider's VoIP server, then on the LAN side I can have as many handsets as I like. I can even have multiple simultaneous calls on that same "line" if I want to, all for $0 per month. I just have to buy/supply my own hardware. My ISP will sell a Grandstream HT812 bridge for $70 for those who do want to connect their old analog phones to the service and I believe they'll pre-configure it for you.

If you are one of these people who makes a lot of landline calls, the top package is AUD$20 per month which gives you unlimited national calls to any number, plus $15 credit towards international calls, or $10/month gets you unlimited national calls only.

[PlainName]

Any network/equipment related issues and you lose 911 emergency access. Keep that in mind when switching from landline to VOIP.

This is true, and I wonder how BT will get around that when every landline becomes VOIP in 3 years time. The problem isn't so much network issues but a power cut. Sure that will take out your network but with old phones they would keep going even if the entire country is blacked out (at least for a while) since they are powered from the exchange batteries.

I am thinking that perhaps TPTB consider mobiles to be a suitable emergency backup. Don't know if the local access point can manage with power out and I'm not about to risk a few years in t'nick to try with the one up the road.

[PlainName]

I regret going the VOIP route. BT is my provider

That's your problem: BT. The only thing good about BT is Openreach, and they're a different company (which you won't be dealing with directly).

[coppice]

The standard UK (Plain Old Telephone Service) POTS line will be going, pretty soon.

Specifically 2025.

[MrMobodies]

I regret going the VOIP route. BT is my provider and they issue Yealink VOIP phones. It’s a very long story, but the only reason for me to go VOIP was that they’d be able to move my number across from Virgin. I’d had the number for 30 years, originally it was a BT number. I’m a mile away from where the number was originally issued by BT, but it’s a different exchange so VOIP was the only way to transfer the number.

I spoke to TalkTalkbusiness today and they are too at it with these YeaLinks as their only voip phone's and agreed it is not appropriate for my setting and neither are they willing to offer me a VOIP service so I can join something like a Grandstream to use my existing phones. They told me to try BT or some smaller company.

So I told BT I’d just go back to POTS with a new number and forget about VOIP. Well they persuaded me to go VOIP. The problem now is that if I want more than one handset I have to pay an extra subscription, like BT in the 70s. With POTS today, I could just go out and bought bundled DECT handsets with a single base unit. In his regard this is BT going back in time 40 years.

Taking the p*ss.

All of them I called so far apart from one only offered YeaLink, nothing else with the same license bulssh*t. I told them after any contract I want the equipment to be mine and if isn't then I don't want it.

MY ISP only told me about the licensing a day before I cancelled the order for them to run FTTP and send me these phones.
I made it very clear of my arrangement and this is not suitable.

My contract ended late last year so it is rolling and I can leave anytime but the price has increased and I am having difficulty finding a provider that will offer me what i want due to the area. My current  ISP said they can't bring the price down unless I take a card payment terminal or these YeaLinks. Okay, I say took the offer to bring down the price by half, I'd be tied in for 3 years and I have feeling they may do stuff like block ports or whatever to make it so I can't use my own VOIP with other services, just like what NTL did in 2003 when they took over Cable&Wireless and blocked dialup to other providers to lure you onto their cable service.

I don't understand this subscription-based or handset licencing fee for VoIP. You're already paying for a data service.

Over here, most ISPs will give you a landline phone number for nothing (but there are different "packages" available for a monthly fee depending on the volume and type of calls you make). I use mine for inbound calls only so I don't need a calling package. The ISP simply provides a username/password and VoIP server address and the rest is up to me. I have it configured so that FreePBX authenticates with my provider's VoIP server, then on the LAN side I can have as many handsets as I like. I can even have multiple simultaneous calls on that same "line" if I want to, all for $0 per month. I just have to buy/supply my own hardware. My ISP will sell a Grandstream HT812 bridge for $70 for those who do want to connect their old analog phones to the service and I believe they'll pre-configure it for you.

If you are one of these people who makes a lot of landline calls, the top package is AUD$20 per month which gives you unlimited national calls to any number, plus $15 credit towards international calls, or $10/month gets you unlimited national calls only.

Hopefully if enough people do that and demand a Voip service to their own phone system then they may drop the YeaLink nonsense.

I use to work at a warehouse 10 years ago, it had a Elastix phone system with Polycom phones then they had an Avaya phone system installed and setup by BT, with a desk phones, a couple of Cisco rugged DECT phones, all with licenses BUT I believe  there were a lifetime licenses handed over that could be transferred if the equipment breaks and if that is the case it has got to be a lot better than charging per month for something you will never own.

As soon as they get enough people, put other smaller providers out of business and take over the market with their cheap arrangement I could see them raising the prices.

Apart from the cheap price they are offering (for one handset) it just sounds aggressive to me and I would never want to take up such a crap deal with the hardware.

Call me paranoid but I think the ISP's promoting this YeaLink licensing rubbish and no other choice/voip service maybe up to something.


Just found this out of interest:
https://support.btcloudphone.bt.com/articles/en_US/RC_Knowledge_Article/9295?retURL=%2Fapex%2FSupportPortalSearch%3Fc%3D%26k%3D%26action%3DSearchAnswer%26sortBy%3D&popup=false&Title=Yealink+setup+and+call+transfer+limitations+%7C+BT+Cloud+Phone

Yealink devices have limitations that affect initial setup and call transfer. Read the information below to learn more about these limitations and how to use your Yealink phone's call transfer features.

• When setting up your Yealink phone, all handsets connected to a single base station will have the same BT Cloud Phone Licence. 1 base station can only be assigned 1 BT Cloud Phone licence. This means that even if 4 phones are connected to 1 base station, it will only have 1 BT Cloud Phone licence.

• On a single base station with 4 connected phones, there could be as many as 4 parties engaged but only 1 conversation is formally supported by a BT Cloud Phone licence. Multiple calls on a single base station may affect call quality and increase your bandwidth usage. Your BT Cloud Phone Service is designed to only permit 1 active call per Licence and conference calls. For more information, go to Basic Troubleshooting Tips for your IP Phones.

Charging for licenses based on the amount of active calls (one license resembling similar features/restrictions to that of a landline) has got to be better than charging one for each individual handset.
Many handsets and one active call is only what I require. It's just a house not a call center but then there is the China remote thing.

It looks to me like this might be a recent thing with the licensing by the handset maybe to make more money.

[madires]

I don't understand this subscription-based or handset licencing fee for VoIP. You're already paying for a data service.

Some telcos like to lease out routers, telephones and other devices to make some additinal profit. Bad ones even try to enforce their devices, especially when there's no regulation banning such practices. Over here you'll get usually a package with internet access and telephone/VoIP service. In most cases the package includes free calls to national landline numbers, but you can buy add-on flatrates for calls to mobile networks or a selection of foreign countries. IIRC, an EU flatrate (landline only) is 20 bucks.

[kaz911]

YeaLink like most other china VoIP products - all have 1/2 finished software with plenty of bugs and security issues.

Sadly there are not really many alternatives. Snom is one - but price vs features have always been an issue (and a very ... German .. user interface - so very detailed and not very intuitive)

[madires]

BTW, YeaLink doesn't support the codecs for Rx and Tx to be different. They have to be the same. That can cause issues with some SIP peers/gateways, especially when using G.722 (HD audio). A few other manufacturers have the same issue (possibly using the same SIP stack?). The SIP RFCs are a bit unclear about this, i.e. they neither say the Rx/Tx codecs must be the same nor that they can't be different. The common understanding is that the Rx/Tx codecs may be the same or different.

[MrMobodies]

I was talking to technical support today from my ISP and they have no knowledge or were provided any with details about how this YeaLink system works on their network in operation and what networks it uses unlike their previous range. All they were given was a support number, a portal to order, setup and manage the phones. Also confirmed they don't have the option to license say one active call to many handsets unlike BT, only by handset with one call per handset.

[El Rubio]

I had found one of these locally that was producing harmful interference. We power cycled it and the interference cleared. Unfortunately, it didn’t return. I say unfortunate because the lady that owned it looked like Ann Margaret from the 1960’s.

[m98]

Just get yourself an AVM Fritzbox and use your existing DECT-Handsets with another VoIP provider, and switch to an internet-only contract at your ISP.

[MrMobodies]

I got one right here given to me last year.

It's a Fritzbox 7530 with an analogue phone port and that built in dect base.

[RJSV]

You're asking, initially, what do I think ?
Well, first, I'm noticing that I'm way behind, on understanding the current developments.  So, this thread is very dense reading, (and vital).
  Otherwise, I think it's human nature, to ignore / pretend such telecommunications breakdown (deliberate), would be some, harmless, child hacker type of trouble.
Thanks for providing this info!