Bad experience with JLCPCB and DHL – things you should know before ordering PCBs

[3dgeo]

Hi,

I'll start from the beginning:
my very first commercially made PCBs order was placed on January 23rd. Shipping price of 33 USD (after 17 USD shipping discount) with DHL (DHL EXPRESS) looked a bit pricey, but still, as a manufacturer I picked JLCPCB (5 boards).
Those boards are for product prototype and while ordering I made a comment that If they can't ship those boards fast enough they should cancel my order. Customer support assured me that there will be no problems, and I got confirmation from DHL that I will get my parcel on January 30.
And here we go...
I get a call form someone that does not introduce themselves or their company and claims that they are DHL "partners" and ask me to pay 20 EUR for document preparation for customs clearance. I want to make this very clear: I'm in EU, so I knew there will be extra import taxes such as VAT and customs tax, I'm OK with paying import taxes set by government, those 20EUR are NOT an import tax. As I found out DHL shared my shipment data (personal information included) with 3rd party without any warning or asking permission. Further more, in DHL website (http://www.dhl.com/en/express/customs_support/customs_process.html) they claim "Processing several million customs entries is no easy task. DHL Express does that every day for its customers because it acts as a broker on their behalf.
Through the local services we provide to customers everywhere, we are now one of the world's largest customs brokers. In this role, we need to ensure that your customs paperwork is relevant and accurate at all times." – so what gives? Why I was contacted by third party and have to pay extra?

I'm guessing at this point you are thinking – this is not an JLCPCB issue, it's DHL issue. I respectfully disagree – I bought PCB manufacturing AND shipping service from JLCPCB directly. It is my firm belief whom gets the money must assure customer gets all services he paid, in this case shipment as well. But after contacting JLCPCB all I get is this:
...pls contact with your local DHL service – (this is EXACT copy/paste)
Maybe I'm spoiled with EU customer protection, but this is not a response anyone should get, as I said, JLCPCB should step in and sort things out.
There's other couple things I should mention:
I know now that this will be a huge waste of time, and I don't know if it's worth it – even if I get the parcel PCBs may be in bad quality, and from JLCPCB customer support perspective on my current situation I can assume that they will not care as well.
I have no protection as a customer what comes to JLCPCB. And no way I'm paying extra...
Funny thing is that if I order with regular mail I would have got it in a few days anyway, shipping would be around 10-15EUR and customs clearance below 10EUR. Will never deal with DHL, thats for sure.

EDIT:
I realized that most of people do not know what customs clearance and/or customs clearance fee is, so I explain what it is in my country. Customs clearance is a procedure where 1 sheet of paper is filled which contains information about parcel, it's value, sender and receiver information so customs can calculate import taxes which I'm fine paying. Customs clearance fee is NOT an import tax in any form and is not charged by Customs themselves nor Customs gets any part of it, it's a fee (that I know now) is charged by 3rd party to fill that 1 page customs declaration which I thought was included in shipping price (I was not informed up front that it is not included).

UPDATE NR.1
This is my letter to both, DHL and JLCPCB:

Let me share the circumstances we are in this situation:
Imagine buying a product in the store that you need, paying the full price indicated on the price tag. While leaving the store You get stopped and asked to pay extra for what you have not been informed on on a price tag or employees who work in the store. What are your next steps in this situation? There is a logical question - would you buy this product if you were aware of the extra charge in the first place?

Let me give you some facts that are important arguments:
1. I was not informed about the additional customs clearance charge at the seller's website
2. There is no information on additional customs clearance charge on DHL official pages, and DHL states that they provide this service to Your customers, not third parties whom DHL leaked parcel information (personal information included) without informing and/or obtaining permission to do so.

Understand the essence of the problem correctly - I'm not saying DHL can't or shouldn't charge extra for the customs clearance procedure. The problem is that I, as Your client, wasn't informed about this before choosing DHL as a courier.
I would also like to point out that I am aware that there will/may be import taxes such as VAT or customs tax, I do not have any problem on paying these taxes.

DHL response:

"...We regret that you have not been informed of the customs clearance of consignments coming from third countries. ..." and information how to pay extra fee.

At this point I didn't get any response from JLCPCB, they just ignored me.

UPDATE NR.2

Just a reminder, my order was placed (and paid) on January 23th, today is February 12th, almost 3 weeks!

Until now I was trying to contact someone at DHL who can help, everyone I contacted mostly ignored the issue and copy/paste "contact your local DHL". I did expect nothing from DHL at this point, but I contacted Germany DHL – they as well wrote exactly the same "contact your local DHL", but after restating my issue and repeating question if I can get help from someone else than my local DHL they actually read my previews letter and gave me a descent response. Well, there were no signs that they will help, but they officially stated this:
"...it is absolutly the responsibility of your contract partner, the sender(who again is the direct partner of DHL EXPRESS), to make you aware of the conditions. You made a contract with the sender even though you have been choosing DHL EXPRESS. ..." – they basically proved my assumption that seller who gets the money should be responsible, so it's JLCPCB responsibility whom I did not hear back in a while.

UPDATE NR.3

Finally, after 12 days JLCPCB responded:
"...Sometimes you need to pay your import taxes and certain services ,it's up to your country policy . Actually we placed the notification under the "check out " ,did you find that ? ... " – can anyone tell where I should find this? I wanted to respond "Yes I did see that and I'm waisting my and Your time just for fun", NO, I did not see any notification! I just love how NOW DHL and JLCPCB states that there might be an extra fees, where were they before order was made?

I informed JLCPCB that if they do not resolve this situation parcel will be shipped back on Friday and I expect full refund.

They took too long to get back to me, I don't need that parcel anymore, I just really curious how this situation will resolve. If JLCPCB decides to compensate for extra fees I'm ok on keeping PCBs, otherwise I want a refund (will inform how that will go....).

P.S. someone stated that I can do customs clearance myself, yes I can, but to get all papers to do it myself it will cost me above 50 eur.


UPDATE NR.4
I and JLCPCB finally came to an agreement. After vague communication suddenly things changed, I started to get replies in a minutes instead of 24h or more. I can only assume what caused this sudden change, but to be honest I don't care.

But then DHL strike:
I payed all extra fees DHL wanted to release my parcel. I was informed that if I pay until certain time I will get my parcel today. I did pay in that timeline and send them confirmation from my bank that transaction was made. This morning I'm getting a letter with information that internal rules of DHL states that they can't release parcel until they can see the money in their bank account, it doesn't matter any documents I provide (note that if I falsify bank transfer document I can get to jail, it's usual here to send a bank transaction document so things can move on). Their bank and my bank are not the same and it takes few hours of bank working hours to actually get the money. I ask them to bend the rules this time, but they, as I already knew, didn't care at all. I tried to convince them to sent it out for over an hour, until their shipping vehicle left the facility. And guess what, after less than 15 min (I'm not joking) I'm getting a letter where they state that they received the money and "here's a number to call and find out when your parcel will arrive". They didn't even had a decency to write it themselves that I will not get my parcel for 3 more days due to today being friday...... I'm so fed up with this situation...

[JackJones]

I'm guessing at this point you are thinking – this is not an JLCPCB issue, it's DHL issue. I respectfully disagree – I bought PCB manufacturing AND shipping service from JLCPCB directly. It is my firm belief whom gets the money must assure customer gets all services he paid, in this case shipment as well.

There was a ruling by the Finnish consumer advocate (I'm getting ombudsman from the dictionary for this, not entirely sure it's the same thing) that said that if you handle the customs declaration yourself, DHL cannot ask for any extra charges unless those charges were specifically mentioned by the seller. Don't other countries have anything similar you can complain to? If enough people raise the issue they should have a response of some kind.

This is definitely not the first time people complain about DHL, so there should be plenty of people to complain. And it is a valid complaint.

Here's a google translated page of the ruling just in case someone is interested: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.kkv.fi%2Fratkaisut-ja-julkaisut%2Fratkaisut%2Farkisto%2F2017%2Fkan-ratkaisut%2Ftullauksen-palvelumaksu%2F

The ruling does bring up this directive: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:31993L0013&from=EN

   
irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract;

[3dgeo]

Yes, I forget to mention – I have option to clear customs myself (it's a nightmare...), but it's not the point. I have parcels from outside EU before, I have never had to pay extra for customs clearance, usually it's included in shipping price (I'm not talking about import taxes).
I didn't get any warning that customs clearance is not included while ordering this service (and in DHL page they claim they do customs clearance), if I did, I definitely would pick regular mail because it's way cheaper.
Frankly I feel deceived, as I said I may be spoiled by EU customer protection, but I think thing like this should be clearly stated while purchasing a service.

[Doctorandus_P]

Once you get into the more expensive stuff on Aliexpress (Nema 34 motor drivers, stereo microscopes and such) you ofthen see "free shipping" with DHL, or something like EUR 75 shipping with another company. Paying the extra EUR 75 was cheaper than the "free shipping with DHL".

DHL also has it's own tracking numbers. Once your packet is in DHL's hands there is no way to track it untill it pops up at your door. Especially if you have multiple packets underway there is no way to know which is which.

Next time I buy the more expensive stuff from Ali, I will delay paying and contact the seller first for confirmation the packet will not be shipped with DHL.

[3dgeo]

JLCPCB themselves "strongly recommends" to use DHL, I hope they will get back to me and stands behind their recommendation.
It's not about 20Eur at this point, it's about not being clear about service DHL provides and JLCPCB "strongly recommends". DHL claims they "acts as a broker on their behalf" on their official page but do not mention that this service costs extra on their page or on JLCPCB page.

[Alex Eisenhut]

Once your packet is in DHL's hands there is no way to track it untill it pops up at your door.

try this

https://www.17track.net/en/

[Psi]

I avoid DHL wherever possible.

They will often add on the shipping cost when processing shipments for tax purposes. Even when your invoice is from a company with free shipping, and so shipping was already included.
They do this so they can push the value over the threshold where they can start charging import tax and so can therefor also charge the "processing fee"
So if your country has a $400 threshold and you order something for $380 all up (free shipping) they add on the shipping cost to push it over and then charge you.
You can call them up and explain it on the phone and they will agree that it was incorrect but wont do anything about it and say you have to pay anyway.

Never had this problem with UPS/Fedex

[rbm]

I also avoid DHL whenever and wherever possible.  It's the reason I no longer order from JLCPCB.  I like their board quality, price and service level but I refuse to be a hostage to DHL policies and dishonest business practices.

[Psi]

PCBWAY defaults to DHL.
You can change it to another method but if you then change anything else in your order it will switch back to the DHL default
So you have to watch it carefully and check right before paying.

[mrpackethead]

Well, my experience with DHL out of China is that it eats everyone else for service and speed.   I have multiple items coming from china each week, and use DHL all the time.  It works really well for me.    If there is Duty payable. ( where its more than about $400 Value ), then it incurs a clearnace fee of  $NZ22.   

I also ship China --> US, but i only use Fedex.  It works really well.

[Psi]

From China DHL is definitely the best value vs speed.
But the company is still dishonest.

[mrpackethead]

From China DHL is definitely the best value vs speed.
But the company is still dishonest.

I did a quick check last year, and our company received / sent 622 parcels with DHL.   We did not run into a instance of dishonesty with them.  Maybe we were lucky?

[Dubbie]

Like Mr Packethead, I also have had a great experience with DHL in NZ, it is prompt and I never have any fees to pay.

I guess it depends on the country.

[KaneTW]

I use DHL all the time, and I made an account with them before they closed that option, so I don't have to pay any extra fees.

[xaxaxa]

I run a web store and this is why I don't offer courier shipping... they all have a tendency to charge extra "processing fees" at time of delivery, and as I predicted, people will blame the merchant rather than the courier. I only do ePacket shipping which uses the CN22 declaration form, meaning less (usually no) hassle at customs.

[Bud]

I can hardly see hows that a surprise to anyone. All couriers charge a brokerage (customs clearance) fee. Just type "[courier name] brokerage fee" in the browser to get information on the courier fee schedule. Some companies like Digikey have the charges included in the items price , that is why you do not pay extra when buying from them, at least this is how it is in Canada.

[Doctorandus_P]

The whole western world has turned lazy.
What is a "fair" price for some service is also a very vague concept.
Even the concept of money is is given far more leverage than it should have in this capitalistic western world. How much is love worth?

Here in the rich western world most people do not care about money or the cost of things, just as long as it's fast and convenient. I am in an unfortunate situation where I have to make do with a very modest amount of money and no possibility to make significant improvements. As an alternative I've fully embraced the Open Source world, where friendlyness and helping each other and even "Making this a better World" is appreaciated above money.

Shipping is a strange thing nowaday's. Small packets from China are Free. The while packet, inclusive shipping is often cheaper than a postage stamp. Buying some batteries form a nearby town adds EUR 6.5 for shipping, almost 30% of the value of the packet.

All the big electronics component stores in the western world (Mouser, digikey, Farnell, etc ALL of them) seem to be conspiring for high prices. This becomes very clear if you look at SOT-23 transistors. Just pick a few and compare prices:
https://octopart.com/search?q=2n7002
First off: It is rediclous that prices for single transistors are even listed.
If you want to build a house, do you buy a bag of sand, or do you buy grains of sand?

LCSC is a reliable Chinese store, comparable with those Western shops.
LCSC starts at minum quantities of 20 for these small parts, and at much more reasonable prices:
https://lcsc.com/search?q=2n7002
The 20+ price of LCSC is lower than the 10000+ price of Western shops.

And when buying such parts from Ali, they put 100 in an envelope and ship the thing for a total price of EUR2 or less inclusive shipping, and everything below EUR22 is free of customs an VAT here in Europe.

I've had some bad experiences with DHL. The worst are with packages just over the minimum limit. I've had one motor driver for a Nema23 motor which costed EUR45, and for which I paid an extra EUR 30 for shipping. DHL managed to inflate the costs with an extra of EUR 51, and I do not now how they managed to do so because they do not add a decent bill.
They also obfuscate shipping by throwing away tracking numbers and inventing their own.

Whenever I buy the more expensive stuff from Ali, I skip stores that only send with DHL, and even delay paying untill the store confirms that it wil not ship with DHL.

Paying is another sore point with DHL. Normal companies simply add a bill for customs, but DHL demands packages to be payed for at the door. What makes me most mad about this though is that they do not use the accustomed rounding to 5ct as almost everybody in europe does, but they DEMAND every last cent. If the costs are EUR 51.02, you have to give them those last 2 cents or you will not get your packet.

Once I turned so mad about this that I wrestled my packet out of the arms of the delivery boy and threw the door cosed in his face. Then I proceeded by paying the customs fees by bank transfer. Never again will I ship with DHL.

Some others have good experiences with DHL (622 packets in a year).
They probably cushion their milk cows.
In some countries experiences with DHL could vary.
If you don't care about your mony and pay DHL rates the service can be good & fast.
But they charge redicilous rates. I'd rather wait a few weeks for packets to arrive.

[xaxaxa]

ePacket is a nice service. The prices are around $4 + $1/100g to ship from China to most countries, and delivery time is usually around 2-4 weeks, with full tracking. It seems this is part of some worldwide UPU deal so I don't get why no other countries offer OUTGOING ePacket shipments? It seems a no-brainer for your own e-commerce industry...

[ciccio]

I too am beginning to hate DHL..
I must admit their (shipping and delivery) service is superb, but when I receive packets from outside EU they steal my money with undocumented fees.
The increase the "intrinsec " value of the goods, sometimes by adding an insurance cost that does not exist in the documents, and which I did never pay,
This way the intrinsec value goes over the 22 Euros that are the "custom free" limit,  so I must pay import duties (taxes) and pay DHL for their brokerage fees.
Sometime the duties + DHL brokerage cost are about 80% of the costs of goods + delivery.
Another strange thing: DHL mails me a note for the fees to be paid, in advance, when the packet is still in Hong Kong or in Dresden, but when I receive the invoice and the cistom paperwork it is signed by somebody in Italy...
Next time I'll place an order with PCBway I'll select the e-packet option.
I use e-packet sometimes with orders from China, and it seems to work well.
Best regards

[KaneTW]

Complain. You are not obligated to pay the wrong amount.

As for fees, create an account with them. You'll need an EORI number and some other headaches, but you can skip the brokerage fee.

[langwadt]

Yes, I forget to mention – I have option to clear customs myself (it's a nightmare...), but it's not the point. I have parcels from outside EU before, I have never had to pay extra for customs clearance, usually it's included in shipping price (I'm not talking about import taxes).
I didn't get any warning that customs clearance is not included while ordering this service (and in DHL page they claim they do customs clearance), if I did, I definitely would pick regular mail because it's way cheaper.
Frankly I feel deceived, as I said I may be spoiled by EU customer protection, but I think thing like this should be clearly stated while purchasing a service.

a fee for customs clearance is totally standard, if you haven't paid that before they either assumed it was under the limit of a few tens of euros or you were lucky and it
slipped past customs

[mvs]

The UPU thing basically says who sends, who pays. Delivery is done for free by recipient country.
So, the more you ship, the more advantage you will take from the recipient country.
To utilize this, China Post subsidizes ePacket.

This is a positive feedback thing. The more you ship, the higher ship:receive ratio, the lower the percentage receiving cost, the more money you can use to subsidize, hence the more you can ship.

Not quite correct. UPU has established terminal dues system to cope with this unbalanced ratio. However the fees are very low and do not compensate the costs of the delivery in most developed countries.

[ciccio]

Complain. You are not obligated to pay the wrong amount.

As for fees, create an account with them. You'll need an EORI number and some other headaches, but you can skip the brokerage fee.

I tried, but  I discovered that if you want to open a dispute, with DHL or any  other broker, such as Poste Italiane, you must pay a fixed fee of 30.00 Euro, not refundable ..
This way, they rob me of about 30.00 Euro each time, and I'm obliged to smile

[KaneTW]

Weird. Over here I've just written DHL Express an email and they sorted it out without complaint.

[langwadt]

The UPU thing basically says who sends, who pays. Delivery is done for free by recipient country.
So, the more you ship, the more advantage you will take from the recipient country.
To utilize this, China Post subsidizes ePacket.

This is a positive feedback thing. The more you ship, the higher ship:receive ratio, the lower the percentage receiving cost, the more money you can use to subsidize, hence the more you can ship.

Not quite correct. UPU has established terminal dues system to cope with this unbalanced ratio. However the fees are very low and do not compensate the costs of the delivery in most developed countries.

afaiui the issue is that China gets the developing country discount