Isn't it strange that you can make better PCBs at home than factories make?

[mrpackethead]

If you are in the special needs class you may sometimes have to ask for special quotes. I'm pretty sure my local pizzeria will make me a pizza without cheese, even though they have none on their menu. If I want kangaroo on it I may need to shop around a bit to find someone willing to provide me with that. Equating this to "isn't it strange that I can make better pizza at home than pizzerias make" makes almost, but not quite, entirely nonsense.

Somewhere in my life, and i'm struggling to remember where, i had pizza with crocodile, which is vaugely related to Kangaroo, just because it lives in australia and thats where everything wants to kill you.   Irelevant? much like this post has bcome.

[bpiphany]

Had kangaroo once, at a restaurant, just to try it. They are pretty uncommon here on the antipodal of the backbush. Wasn't much special, and fortunately not particularly expensive even by restaurant standards. I have seen it in the freak show meat counter at the grocery store. Where they have crocodile, zebra, other jazzy exotic meat side by side with the more generic moose, boar and that other local stuff.

Perhaps a fugu pizza would be more of a challenge. I bet that probably wouldn't come without a ton of hassle and special toolery..

[SeanB]

Crocodile is easy, just have to go to Crocworld a hour away, or go to the local butchery and get some, along with Kudu ( lovely meat that, had some Xmas eve), Springbok, Wildebeest and Impala, all when available. Off the shelf some lovely Skilpad and Pofadder, which might not be to most people's tastes.

Placed an order for Warthog, that is so much better than bacon.

[tautech]

My youngest got a nice fat Fallow spiker yesterday, really looking forward to a feed of that when it's seasoned some. 

[mrpackethead]

Perhaps a fugu pizza would be more of a challenge. I bet that probably wouldn't come without a ton of hassle and special toolery..

If you dont' show us pictures, i don't believe you can make it better at home than in a Fugu Pizza Factory.


Its the holidays i have time to partake it such a garbage thread.

[MaximRecoil]

The OP either can't handle loosing an argument, or is gravely delusional.

This assertion of yours has no basis in fact.

He has shown non of what he claims to be true.

I don't need to show that facts are true. Every aspect of design transfer when making a PCB (copper etching, solder mask, and silkscreen) is fundamentally the same thing as making/burning a screen for screen printing, or, in the case of the silkscreen layer, it is 100% screen printing. The only difference is the specific chemicals used (though they all function on the same principle, i.e., photosensitive/UV curable). All that's left aside from those things is drilling holes and installing rivets, neither of which require any special skills.

On the other hand examples have been given in the thread of boards manufactured with curly traces.

Show me an example of traces that are 100% analog, from start to finish, i.e., never entering the digital domain. I can do that at home; do you know of a factory that will do it?

Granted gerbers doesn't support them, rasterizing the image near the end of the process is a non-problem.

You're confused. Rasterizing the image near the end of the process doesn't help matters, because software that generates Gerber files doesn't have any means for drawing bezier curves in the first place, because Gerber doesn't support them. The workaround that I was made aware of in this thread is to start with a raster image that was drawn in a different program, such as Illustrator (vector drawing which you've exported from Illustrator as a raster image), or you could draw it as a native raster image in e.g., Photoshop. Then there are some PCB design programs which will allow you to import that raster image which can then be exported as a Gerber file. It's a kludge, but you could theoretically get very good results with it. Of course, that's still not analog, which can be done at home without using a computer at all, for anything.

Also boards with more-than-one-color printing has been shown to exist.

No one showed a factory-made PCB with e.g., a full-color photographic image printed on it, not that I recall anyway. If someone did, please link to it.

By the way, I can make a better pizza at home than any place in my town makes. Mine cooks in 4 minutes on a 3/8" thick plate of steel preheated to 700 degrees F; a 4-minute cook time is the gold standard for making "New York style" pizza. All the places in my small town that make pizza are just Mom & Pop convenience stores which don't specialize in it, and they all taste more or less the same, since they are get their ingredients/supplies from Sysco, and they all use the same type of pizza ovens which take about 7 or 8 minutes to cook the pizza.

[ataradov]

Your confused. Rasterizing the image near the end of the process doesn't help matters, because software that generates gerber files doesn't have any means for drawing bezier curves in the first place, because Gerber doesn't support them.

You are really not getting it, do you? Gerber IS the final step. Gerber is that rasterization. PCB software does not work with Gerber files directly. PCB software keeps its Bezier curves in its internal format, where they are perfectly smooth.

And in general Gerber is printing hardware-dependent, so it is typically rasterized at a final output resolution. Most people don't care about this, since they are remote from the actual machines, but people making boards, they don't take your gerbers directly, they suck them in to CAM software and generate Gerbers (or something else) for their machine.

[mrpackethead]

I don't need to show that facts are true.

You do if you want anyone to take you seriously.   But I guess in your own mind, you dont' have to do anything, so in your world your 100% correct. In everyone elses world, well, they will reach their own conclusions.

You're confused.

Your a banana. or a pizza.

By the way, I can make a better pizza at home than any place in my town makes.

What a suprise. 

Mine cooks in 4 minutes on a 3/8" thick plate of steel preheated to 700 degrees F; a 4-minute cook time is the gold standard for making "New York style" pizza.

says who.   Yourself?

Theres a trend here.. everyone else is pathetic wrong and informed, and not as good as you.   Is that what you want me to believe.

[rob77]

@MaximRecoil

1. you're acting stupid, sorry it's a fact
2. you're talking bullshit, sorry it's a fact
3. you earned a place in my ignore list, that's a fact and i'm not sorry for that

don't bother to answer/quote this post (see #3 above).

and a piece of advice for you... what you think you can do is not what you actually can do, there is a significant gap between those two and the only way how to bridge that gap is to gain knowledge and experience.

[MaximRecoil]

You are really not getting it, do you?

Comical Irony Alert

Gerber IS the final step.

No kidding?

Gerber is that rasterization.

And here's the reason for that Comical Irony Alert, because it shows that you clearly don't get it. I'll repeat:

You're confused. Rasterizing the image near the end of the process doesn't help matters, because software that generates Gerber files doesn't have any means for drawing bezier curves in the first place, because Gerber doesn't support them. The workaround that I was made aware of in this thread is to start with a raster image that was drawn in a different program, such as Illustrator (vector drawing which you've exported from Illustrator as a raster image), or you could draw it as a native raster image in e.g., Photoshop. Then there are some PCB design programs which will allow you to import that raster image which can then be exported as a Gerber file. It's a kludge, but you could theoretically get very good results with it. Of course, that's still not analog, which can be done at home without using a computer at all, for anything.

In other words, in order to have a representation of bezier curves in a Gerber file, you have to start with a raster image and import it into a PCB design program, because there's no way to draw bezier curves in the PCB design program itself.

PCB software does not work with Gerber files directly. PCB software keeps its Bezier curves in its internal format, where they are perfectly smooth.

Show me a PCB design program which has a bezier pen tool.

And in general Gerber is printing hardware-dependent, so it is typically rasterized at a final output resolution.

Everything that is printed digitally is rasterized first, if it isn't raster already.

[MaximRecoil]

@MaximRecoil

1. you're acting stupid, sorry it's a fact
2. you're talking bullshit, sorry it's a fact
3. you earned a place in my ignore list, that's a fact and i'm not sorry for that

don't bother to answer/quote this post (see #3 above).

and a piece of advice for you... what you think you can do is not what you actually can do, there is a significant gap between those two and the only way how to bridge that gap is to gain knowledge and experience.

Your baseless and irrelevant "op-ed piece" is dismissed, and given that you have no arguments whatsoever, your tacit concession on the whole matter is noted. 

[ataradov]

In other words, in order to have a representation of bezier curves in a Gerber file, you have to start with a raster image and import it into a PCB design program, because there's no way to draw bezier curves in the PCB design program itself.

That is a problem with your PCB software, not Gerbers. I have no idea if commonly available PCB software supports Bezier curves.

Quick search shows that Altium supports Bezier curves in schematics, but not on PCB. I'm not sure if this information is up to date.

[MaximRecoil]

I don't need to show that facts are true.

You do if you want anyone to take you seriously.

Is that a joke? I don't need to show that facts are true, because fact are true by definition.

As for the rest of your post, it's a non sequitur, like most everything else you've typed on this thread.

[MaximRecoil]

That is a problem with your PCB software, not Gerbers. I have no idea if commonly available PCB software supports Bezier curves.

It doesn't matter whose problem it is; it's a problem nonetheless.

Quick search shows that Altium supports Bezier curves in schematics, but not on PCB. I'm not sure if this information is up to date.

Interesting, but that doesn't help matters. By the way, I don't mind being proven wrong on this at all, because I would really like to know of a PCB design program which has a bezier pen tool.

[slicendice]

I could make a space ship at home, and it could travel more than 10x the speed of light. It could also have a shield that is impossible to penetrate and could have laser guns that could destroy a whole solar system with only using a millionth of it's full capacity. And it's a fact that I could make it better than anyone in any factory because I say so. So there is no need for me to demonstrate this as my word is all proof you will ever need. All info on how to build such ship can be found using Google. Good luck in making a better ship than I could make. ;-)

[MaximRecoil]

I could make a space ship at home, and it could travel more than 10x the speed of light. It could also have a shield that is impossible to penetrate and could have laser guns that could destroy a whole solar system with only using a millionth of it's full capacity. And it's a fact that I could make it better than anyone in any factory because I say so. So there is no need for me to demonstrate this as my word is all proof you will ever need. All info on how to build such ship can be found using Google. Good luck in making a better ship than I could make. ;-)

Great "analogy", you know, between something not known to be possible at all, and something that's been possible for over 100 years (design-transfer using photosensitive chemicals), and is not exactly rocket science.

[BravoV]

.... as my word is all proof you will ever need.

So this isn't about PCB ... errr... sorry... I mean space ship ? Its all about recognition by the internet crowd, right ?

Then this thread should be moved into suitable place like "General Chat section" as its more for "social" type of thread.

CMIIW

[slicendice]

this thread should be moved into suitable place like "General Chat section" as its more for "social" type of thread.

Yes, the claims in this thread sound as ridiculous as my analogy. There is a big difference between could and can. Heck, I could even move things with my mind using no tech to assist me. But can I? Maybe, maybe not! Could it happen in my lifetime? Maybe, maybe not!

Considering this thread as entertainment, and has nothing to do with real life facts.

[BravoV]

Heck, I could even move things with my mind using no tech to assist me. But can I? Maybe, maybe not! Could it happen in my lifetime? Maybe, maybe not!

I believe you ... where the hell is the "Like"    button for your post there ? At least that will boost a little bit of your ego and be proud that you've been "recognized" by your claim and get the fame "and the attention" that you've been dying for. 

Considering this thread as entertainment, and has nothing to do with real life facts.

So are you saying yourself is a clown ... errr ... sorry .... I mean an "entertainer" now in this holiday season ? I don't mind though. 

[slicendice]

This is the closest proof to the claims for this thread I've found so far. Very good looking PCB. And the hardware cost only about $800. But is the PCB better quality than any factory can make? I have no idea, as I don't own this CNC machine. I do however worry about how much weaker the traces will become in places where the solder mask is drilled away. No true color silkscreen either. But the software used is free.

EDIT: Link to the seller of this tool http://wegstr.com/
EDIT: The price was wrong, corrected

[MaximRecoil]

this thread should be moved into suitable place like "General Chat section" as its more for "social" type of thread.

Yes, the claims in this thread sound as ridiculous as my analogy.

That's ironic, given that none of my claims are even remotely extraordinary. There are many videos on YouTube of people at home doing the things I've said I can do at home. I don't know if you'll see anyone who has bothered to do a full-color screen print on a PCB (I know I wouldn't bother, as I've said already), but it's no different than doing a full-color screen print on any other substrate, aside from having to select the right screen and ink for the job.

You obviously don't understand the process, as you aren't using facts/arguments to dispute anything I've said; you're merely a garden-variety "heckler", and mere heckling in an argument = a tacit concession.

There is a big difference between could and can.

No, there isn't. Without additional qualifications, they both mean "able to". "I could drive to the lake," and "I can drive to the lake," both mean exactly the same thing.

Heck, I could even move things with my mind using no tech to assist me.

I'm sure you couldn't.

But can I? Maybe, maybe not! Could it happen in my lifetime? Maybe, maybe not!

At this point, you fail Analogies 101 forever.

[MaximRecoil]

This is the closest proof to the claims for this thread I've found so far.

Which claims do you think need proof? Here's a video where someone applies photosensitive solder mask (UV curable):

https://youtu.be/Vj_cdBZO1Tk

And no, you don't need a CNC machine to drill away the solder mask on the pads (nor for anything else); that defeats the purpose of the "UV curable" part. If you're planning to drill away the solder mask on the pads, you wouldn't need UV curable at all, you could simply use air-curing epoxy resin from your local hardware store. And I would do it better than the guy in the video I embedded does, because I would screen print it on, which results in a very uniform application.

There are countless home PCB etching videos on YouTube, even one by what appears to be a 10- or 12-year-old girl, and that works on the exact same principle (design transfer using photosensitive chemicals).

Screen printing is yet another photosensitive design-transfer process. If you want to see full-color screen printing being done, search YouTube for something like "simulated process", or "4-color process", or "CMYK process", in combination with the term "screen printing" or "silkscreen".

None of this is extraordinary for someone to do at home. The only thing extraordinary is the baseless incredulity of you and others over very doable things.

[slicendice]

LOL, this thread appears to be going nowhere. 

Searching using all the search criteria yielded no PCB screen printing processes at home that would be even remotely as good as what manufacturers make. Not to forget full color results.

[MaximRecoil]

LOL, this thread appears to be going nowhere. 

Only from the perspective of someone who doesn't understand the processes involved.

Searching using all the search criteria yielded no PCB screen printing processes at home that would be even remotely as good as what manufacturers make. Not to forget full color results.

There is nothing unique about screen printing on a PCB. The PCB is just the substrate. You would use epoxy ink, which is the same thing you would use for e.g., screen printing on metal. The only difference the substrate makes is with regard to ink and screen selection, i.e., you wouldn't use fabric inks for printing on metal, plastic, etc., and while you can use a low mesh-count screen for printing on anything — because rigid, non-porous substrates can hold more detail than fabric can — you can take advantage of that by using higher mesh-count screens.

This video has some screen printing on optical discs:

https://youtu.be/bOqtdyY8DOQ

[timb]

MaximRecoil, has anyone ever told you that reading your posts gives them douche chills? Because god damn, I seriously feel embarrassed for you every time I read one...

My guess is you're in your early 20's and still think the world revolves around you. You think you're *soooo* much smarter than everyone else. Don't worry, I used to be like that too. Most of us were. One day you'll wake up and realize what a complete cactus ass you were and be more than a bit embarrassed by it. Most of us have.

I'm sure right now you won't take this post as anything but a non-sequitur ad hominem logical fallacy argumentia ad nauseam, but in 10 years or so you'll suddenly remember my words and throw up in your mouth a little at the thought of what a complete and utter ass you used to be.

I've used a bit of linguistic programming to ensure that happens. A namshub in your brain, waiting to execute.  Purposefully posting pretentiously programmed polysyllabic prose, if you will.