Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020

[Amarbir[Lynx-India]]

Hi Folks ,
      My Purpose If To Design And Do Some little modification to some open source hardware designs and also design my own schematics and pcb's . Max would be two layer boards .Mostly through hole type .I have some past experience with eagle and proteus .Today i checked AutoTRAX and i was bowled out by the user interface .The software seems to be getting powerful day by day .The manual and documentation parts sucks and many portions are not even done up in the documentation .They have a offer going on for USD 49/Year till 13th  .Does anyone have some kinda experience in this software to help me buy/no buy decision .

[PuterGeek]

I was interested in the sale price and downloaded the software to try it out. This is not in depth just my impressions below are just from the schematic capture portion. Since I'm no expert, there may be ways to tweak the behavior.

The overall appearance if favorable and I like how the library is displayed. The performance is adequate although it does seem a little slow to load. It has some nice touches on the interface such as shortcut toolbar icons to switch between snap settings (2, 4, 8, etc.). Right click menus are pretty well done and have most of what you would expect. I'm well past needing reading glasses so I found the icons too small. There is a nice calculator feature for numerical inputs so you can do the math in place.

The library is pretty limited but there are some library items to use to build symbols which is a nice feature. The symbols were obviously built metric which creates rounding oddities when you use the US system. The grid snap doesn't work when moving symbol parts. Overall I would probably rate symbol building as fair.

The schematic entry did some weird things tying to be helpful. Signal lines would jog around reference designators or values and the lines would 'fix' themselves when you move parts. Junction dots would sometimes go to weird places. A bigger problem was flipping components the graphics changed but the pin numbers didn't work right.

A bug in the library tree view caused it to duplicate folder trees if you double clicked a folder that was already open. There was also a bug in the symbol editor with the coordinates swapped or something. I fumbled my way thru getting the results I wanted but didn't really understand the problem. In several places the displayed controls were cutoff like the color selector in the symbol builder. Rather than pop-up dialog boxes (like Autodesk Inventor) in used a properties tool box (like Solidworks) which uses a lot of screen area. Tool tips frequently popped up to obscure where I was trying to click.

In summary, there are some good ideas but the fit and finish aren't there.

In case anyone is interested, this was on Windows 7 64-bit, quad core Phenom II, 8 GB RAM, Radeon HD 4850 and a 24 inch wide screen LCD.

[EEVblog]

IIRC AutoTrax EDA was, and still is written by a single guy.
So that's a very impressive achievement of course, but I would not bet on it as a long term supported tool in that case. For hobby use etc that's not really an issue of course.

Dave.

[PuterGeek]

I agree on all those points Dave.

As an individual's effort it is extremely well done. The problem with something as complex as CAD software is it really helps to break it down to chunks. Having multiple people for the chunks helps get problems resolved.

All that being said, I don't see anything nearly as good at the price point. Like you, I would want a little more support if I were going to use it to put food on the table.

But then again, who knows when an Altium or DipTrace will vanish? I'm sure if a competitor buys Altium, AD12 will not be around for too long. Sure they'll offer to migrate you but that is usually pretty dodgey in my experience.

-Joe

[EEVblog]

But then again, who knows when an Altium or DipTrace will vanish? I'm sure if a competitor buys Altium, AD12 will not be around for too long. Sure they'll offer to migrate you but that is usually pretty dodgey in my experience.

Altium did that themselves when they bought CircuitMaker and PCAD. Not to mention Tasking and Morfik.

Dave.

[JoannaK]

Based on my own short test... Note though that I have no meaningfull amount of experience of similar priced PCB-layout/routing programs, only 5+ years of PADS.. so the comparieion to that price range would be unfair.

As a quick note: I don't in general understand the keen interest of replacing well known shematic (and pcb) symbols with 2d/3d renderings. Not that 3D render of the board may look nice (and if exported as STL would be suitable for physical size 3d-print), but the problem is that this kind of sw-development is away of the making the basic software reliable, smooth and well enginered. This same goes to n+1 home-made autorouters found on these low end tools, small team ain't likely to be able to create an autorouter that can be used on half-decent boards, so the developers should (IMHO) concentrate their effort on the parts of program not readily available as a 3rd part library.

For this particular program:  I do like the integration of schema/pcb level. The new-office-look menus are quite clumsy (IMHO, same as on m$ products) and many usefull features seems to be missing. Unimplemented features are easier to spot when you change to classic menus, with those ... Well, way too often the result is the requester "Feature not yet implemented" .

On pcb-side, the biggest show-stoppers for me are.
- Manual routing downright sucks.. (or I just don't understand how it's supposed to work?)
- The part library is 1-1-1 tied from shematic/Partsymbol-rendering. That is if you'll ever need to change any part of existing design to another package (happens a lot in real world designs) you'll need to mess with the Shematic, part definition etc.
- Locking the part locations at PCB don't work... Well, it kinda works, so you may place the parts and select them to be locked, but if you ever accidently press 'aling parts to grid' it nudges all parts some small amount to some undefined direction (no warning). What's worse, if you do it again, those parts are moved once more.
- There is no way to filter what you want to select with your LMB, at a time I'd like to select: Parts or documentation (part names/ref designators) or traces, vias, pins, and/or unrouted links from the ratsnest. If there is a neat way to filter the selections, I'd surely didn't see it.

But.. like I said, I have not done a *** on programs like Eagle, kiCad etc.. so may well be that I'm xpecting too much out of this one..

[DavidDLC]

This program is not worth.

Support from the owner is not good, I had a bad experience, I got robbed $100.00 USD when I bought it and it never worked. It was crashing all the time.

Not good.

[Amarbir[Lynx-India]]

IIRC AutoTrax EDA was, and still is written by a single guy.
So that's a very impressive achievement of course, but I would not bet on it as a long term supported tool in that case. For hobby use etc that's not really an issue of course.

Dave.

Dave ,
         Then Eagle is Not  Bad Choice .Mostly My Schematics Are Single Sheet And PCB falls under the freeware version of eagle  .With Autotrax lots of people are having issues .And i do not understand Was AutoTRAX EDA also from same developer .If yes what was the need to rename it  ?

[novarm44]

When single guys develops software there are problems connected with testing, documentation, library development, etc. Also if single guy decide to leave this job - the project will be closed.

The software developed by team has better quality as each team member develops its own part and much more man-hours were spent on it, if owner decide to leave the business - he can sell the company (like with Eagle) or just leave the team.

As example DipTrace was started by single programmer too (and Autotrax/DEX was already on market at that time), once the project allowed to hire more people - we did that and our first employee was full-time engineer/tester to debug the product. Currently DipTrace is solid company with developers, testers, writers, engineers, library team and it becomes less and less dependent on business owner/main developer while it grows. Altium and other large companies are even more stable from this point of view. Of course each business depends on its SEO and his decisions though.

Also see if software can export third-party / ASCII formats, i.e its files are not private and you will not be alone with tons of designs when developer decide to leave the business.

[poorchava]

if(HasOnlineDrc)
{
   CheckSoftware();
}
else
{
   DontBother();
}

[Mechatrommer]

Have a look at the time bugs are fixed on both user groups.

i dont bother checking. all i know, i've used both diptrace and dex, yes they both have bugs, thats only natural for software development. sometime, more people reporting bugs (or requesting features) means thats software is popular. now back to "i've used both software", the main difference is... i still continue using diptrace albeit bugs in it, it still workable and output usable "production files". now this dex, it crashed on me the time i load it, i cant do anything i cant place a resistor nothing, the GUI are all scrambled everywhere resembling mutilated goblin. if i cant do anything with dex how do i make recommendation to other people whether its good or bad? dont get me wrong,  i dont hate dex, i believe there is hope in it, but... sigh, have you fixed that?

[cwalex]

Hi Stanislav

You state than ‘when single guys develop software there are problems… “
Well that’s true. There are even more problems when many guys develop software!

It all depends on the individual. You of course know that there is a productivity gap of over 10:1 among programmers and if more than one is developing the program this gets worse.
Of course the tools you use matter. Say if you program in Pascal which is an old teaching language never meant for large products then the problems will only be compounded.

If you are referring to me then you are badly mistaken. I develop with all the latest tools, .NET, C# with C++/CLI, C++ and even C where needed.
I also use XmlSpy, Antlr and numerous other tools.
DEX has integrated testing, system testing and UI testing all tied together in a Microsoft Visual Studio 2012 with Team Foundation Server and Agile methodology.
FYI AutoTRAX consists of 336,186 lines of code in 1522 classes.
I have developed software for many large international companies including SolidWorks and Silicon Graphics Inc.
See my profile at http://uk.linkedin.com/in/iliyakovac

As for Diptrace being a ‘better’software company. You need to look at all the bugs being reported on your user group
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/diptr/

You can see the AutoTRAX user group at
http://finance.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/autotrax/

Have a look at the time bugs are fixed on both user groups.
Also see what happened to your users requesting Line cursors. I did it for AutoTRAX within 4 hours and it was available for users. You said it took you 2 weeks.
This proves my point about lean development with the right tools. Yes I look at what your users are saying and if they have a good idea and it’s not already in AutoTRAX then I add it.

As the developer of Diptrace you really should not be spreading misinformation.

I am glad you brought up the closed file format. As you know, AutoTRAX has had an open format XML file structure since day one. This has now been emulated by Eagle.
You can find the spec for the AutoTRAX XML at http://www.kov.com/DexXmlSchemaManual/
I don’t think Diptrace is XML.
Also see my article at http://iliyakovac.com/free-but-not-free-or-im-off-to-cancun/

AutoTRAX has one single price. Not the ‘gotcha’pricing of Diptrace and others. It’s like selling a 4 seater car but the back seats and passenger seat have chains on them that you have to pay extra to get unlocked.

The parts library is not limited as there are 109,951 parts available for AutoTRAX at http://kov.com/Support/Parts.aspx

The bug in the library tree was fixed last year.

My contact details including address and phone number are at http://kov.com/AboutUs/
I cannot find any details on your website for you!

Regards
Iliya Kovac
The single guy who developed and continues to develop AutoTRAX DEX 2020
http://www.kov.com

I haven't checked but have you got some youtube tutorials covering a simple real world project as simple as a ftdi to ttl seral converter or even simpler from schematic capture through to gerber output? If not and you can spare the time you might find it helpful for getting people on board with your software. It would be a good opportunity to show in action any special things your software does that you think make the workflow more efficient or just better. I got a decent output of eagle following user submitted videos and now I'm playing around with altium from video examples, I just seem to learn better that way. I don't think I could go back to eagle now! I'd be willing to try following a vid tut on your software though.

Take care,

Alex

[mamalala]

DEX does not need to import 3D models. It generates the 3D automatically from the part. No need for you to do anything! 

Ahh, marketing-speak!

So you basically say that this software has a crystal ball built in that automagically knows what the part looks like. And you want us to believe that?

See, i have written this wonderful new OS. It boots up in under 1 milisecond, detects all the hardware you throw at it, and has only one command, "do". Using that command it will do whatever you want it to do.

Of course what i said is not true. But neither is what you said true. At best it can use generic, pre-made models that already exist, like a SO8 package model whenever i tell it that my part is using the same package. It can not, and will never, automatically create 3D models of whatever part i want to create. It simply can't.

Really, i have no problems with people talking about their software or products. But please, cut the crap. We are all grownups here. Keep the hollow marketing lingo to shiny prospects and ads, but leave that garbage out of a forum.

Greetings,

Chris

[mamalala]

Haha, and now the marketing speak turned right into a sales pitch. All you just said in oh-so-many words is that you use predefined stuff to auto-generate parts. And that means it will fall apart as soon as you get to devices that are outside of the predefined things.

See, it's quite easy. You could have said that it will help to generate 3D models of parts easier, and that it provides basic blocks or wizards to create rather common packages. Instead you chose to say "It generates the 3D automatically from the part." But again, that can only work if the basic blocks/parameters for such a part are already known.

But even worse, you went right into marketing speak and threw out the silly phrase "No need for you to do anything!". For something that needs nothing to be done by the user you surely made a rather long post about how to actually do it.

Just exactly what is to be expected when looking behind gross overstatements made in marketing-speak.

Greetings,

Chris

[DavidDLC]

This software sucks, looks like a toy, and it never worked on my computer, the owner asked to do serveral things, at the en he asked me to format the hard disk ( really ! ), in order for it to work.

I did format the hard disk anyways and still didn't work as expected it was halting all the time, and I never managed to have a finished circuit, when I asked for a refund because I followed all the recommendations and it didn't work I got nothing.

So I wasted 100 USD ( the price at that time ) for nothing. As a owner sometimes is better to give a refund on something that does not work for one user, rather to have a not happy customer ( like me ) giving bad feedback whenever there is a chance.

Use free version of Eagle or Kicad or something else, do not waste your money on this product.

[mstevens]

This software sucks, looks like a toy, and it never worked on my computer, the owner asked to do serveral things, at the en he asked me to format the hard disk ( really ! ), in order for it to work.

DUDE!!! Give it a break, you have already stated this before!!! I have DEX running under several different OSes on different hardware 32 and 64 bit.  Just from your post, it leads me to believe your just inept.  It was $100.  Chalk it up as a lesson learned and move on with your life.  QUIT SPAMMING US!!

[Mechatrommer]

now i remember. the first time i installed DEX its working ok, GUI are OK. and then later maybe the 3rd of 5th time i loaded it, the GUI got scrambled. i uninstalled and reinstalled, its still scrambled, so there must be setting already buried in my system that cause this scrambling. my videocard if ATI Radeon HD4650, not the cheapest when i bought it. every other programs incl DirectX 3D are working flawless, so i doubt the "your card is crappy" is the reason.

edit: asking customers to format HDD and reinstall is not acceptable. the programmer should be well versed in the program he's developing. he should know which and where is the setting to tweak to make it work. this is the reason i stays away from MFC, C# NET or whatnot. too much things i dont understand in the system/IDE. i can see from the look of it, DEX is too much dependent on these fancy stuffs.

[DavidDLC]

This software sucks, looks like a toy, and it never worked on my computer, the owner asked to do serveral things, at the en he asked me to format the hard disk ( really ! ), in order for it to work.

DUDE!!! Give it a break, you have already stated this before!!! I have DEX running under several different OSes on different hardware 32 and 64 bit.  Just from your post, it leads me to believe your just inept.  It was $100.  Chalk it up as a lesson learned and move on with your life.  QUIT SPAMMING US!!

No I won't

[Mechatrommer]

I never asked anybody to format a disc.

and i never said i believe you did cheers programmer!

[mamalala]

HaHa, Looked at your Posts. Eagle/Germany ...
Don't like DEX do you?

Bet you never even downloaded it to try it.

How should i know if i like your software or not? After all you are unable or unwilling to provide it cross-platform, which makes it impossible for non-Windows users to run it natively.

But what's more is the fact that you seem unable to differentiate between criticism of a product (which i did not do) and criticism of hollow marketing speak and sales pitch (which i did do). Once you learned the difference between that we may discuss that further.

Greetings,

Chris

[Amarbir[Lynx-India]]

@ ilija ,
            Sir why are you banging your head on the wall when some people keeping bsing .I used the trial and i loved it .Let me share the bad points "I hope you like constructive feedback "

1 : i would love to see a video that explains us very basic from start to finish .I only saw small small video's .

         Thats all ,Nothing else 

[Amarbir[Lynx-India]]

Haha, and now the marketing speak turned right into a sales pitch. All you just said in oh-so-many words is that you use predefined stuff to auto-generate parts. And that means it will fall apart as soon as you get to devices that are outside of the predefined things.

See, it's quite easy. You could have said that it will help to generate 3D models of parts easier, and that it provides basic blocks or wizards to create rather common packages. Instead you chose to say "It generates the 3D automatically from the part." But again, that can only work if the basic blocks/parameters for such a part are already known.

But even worse, you went right into marketing speak and threw out the silly phrase "No need for you to do anything!". For something that needs nothing to be done by the user you surely made a rather long post about how to actually do it.

Just exactly what is to be expected when looking behind gross overstatements made in marketing-speak.

Greetings,

Chris

Well,
       Chris ,He just explain can'nt you get it ? .The problem with many many customers i have seen is "They like the dealer/manufacturer to work the way they feel comfortable with " Not understanding he has to work in a system .Whenever he will post some of them will jump into the marketing/promotion nonesense .i just experienced this when i posted in one forum and someone when to the extend of everything to abuse me right in eevblog -> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fs-tl866cs-universal-programmer/msg184241/#msg184241

[cwalex]

There are 40 videos on YouTube. All HD.

https://www.youtube.com/user/AutoTRAXDEX

Regards
Iliya Kovac

Cheers mate, I'll take a look when work quietens down to a dull roar again 

[mamalala]

Well,
       Chris ,He just explain can'nt you get it ?

What's there to "get"? I have no problems with his product or himself. I just don't like misleading marketing-speak and that's what i called out. First he claimed that the software generates the 3D parts automatically, and he especially claimed that the user has to do nothing for it. I called that out since it simply is impossible. To which he replied with more marketing speak and a sales-pitch. Which, btw., made it clear that it is indeed not true that the user has to do nothing. Instead of admitting that he made a far-fetched claim that isn't true always, he decided to go the route of a personal attack.

Seriously, i hate that false advertising crap. In the sales pitch you get promised heaven and stars, while the reality is something completely different once you bought the product. I just don't like that. I prefer honesty over fancy wording. Why not being truthful and say that the software can help generate 3D parts just for common stuff? Why the need to make it sound like it can do magic? It's simply a fact that there are many parts that can not be auto-generated but have to be drawn up by the user instead. Like LC-Displays, buttons and switches of various types, battery holders, not-so-common connectors, other special parts, etc.

Greetings,

Chris

[DavidDLC]

now i remember. the first time i installed DEX its working ok, GUI are OK. and then later maybe the 3rd of 5th time i loaded it, the GUI got scrambled. i uninstalled and reinstalled, its still scrambled, so there must be setting already buried in my system that cause this scrambling. my videocard if ATI Radeon HD4650, not the cheapest when i bought it. every other programs incl DirectX 3D are working flawless, so i doubt the "your card is crappy" is the reason.

edit: asking customers to format HDD and reinstall is not acceptable. the programmer should be well versed in the program he's developing. he should know which and where is the setting to tweak to make it work. this is the reason i stays away from MFC, C# NET or whatnot. too much things i dont understand in the system/IDE. i can see from the look of it, DEX is too much dependent on these fancy stuffs.

I never asked anybody to format a disc.
I suspect your machine is not compatible with .NET or there is something not right with the .NET installation.

Ilja, you asked me, so please don't lie

[free_electron]

DEX does not need to import 3D models. It generates the 3D automatically from the part. No need for you to do anything! 

Regards
Iliya Kovac

Hmmm . So how do you deal with part height ? Like of qfn packages ? Some are 1.2 mm some are 1.5 mm..

On this whole 3D subject. I met the guys from diptrace yesterday at devcon. They were handing out flyers. They had a strange attitude. Didn't seem friendly, looked kinda bored. Pushed a flyer in your hand and that was sorta it. I asked them about their 3D capabilities as they had a kind of video playing. In essnece all that 3D stuff is only eye-candy. What's you opinion ?

I want 3D design rule checking! ( like altium does) being able to load a step file of a complex mechanical chasis, slice it, project the slice to a board contour , place parts and heve the tool tell me : you can't place that part here because it is too tall.

When i'm done i want to export a mechanically accurate step file so my mechanical engineers can crosscheck. That is what 3d should be used for. Anyhting else is just a fancy renderer. Big whoop.

Couple of weeks ago i had to help a customer doing a layout. Mechanical tolerances were very thight. We had to handpick parts , i created mechanically accurate linraires by pulling the step files from the parts vendors. Pulled in the chassis ( a harddisk drive ) did the placement. Altium worked like a charm. I had realtime feedback of what could and could not be done. In half a day i closed the layout.
Board fits perfectly.

Now, i dont know avout autotrax, but if that is not what you intend to do with 3d, please drop it and focus on something else .

So i am wondering about this automatic generation of parts. There is no way you can do this. What about connectors ? That auto stuff may work for old crap like dil and idc pinheaders but there's thousands of other packages out there. Better make sure you can read and write Step. As that is the common 3d format out there.

[poorchava]

That's exactly the problem with DipTrace - VRML is no good. Most 3d cads (tried Solidworks, Catia, Alibre) can't convert VRML to STEP/IGES which makes is useless for mechanical engineering purposes.

[free_electron]

Not only diptrace. Loook we do sketchup integration. (Eagle)

So what. Come back when you support the standards. Thats like making a pcb layout tool that cannot create gerber.  Only 75 dpi dithered bitmaps printed at 1:3 scale...

That is the problem with all these entry level tools. They want to slap on 3d desperately because it looks cool, but it has no functionality. The time wasted on that should be spent on adding elementary things for pcb layout. Like push-n-shove , realtime drc and other things that make life easy.

[Mechatrommer]

That is the problem with all these entry level tools.

another problem is... they are cheap. i think its not fair to ask $K feature(s) to be implemented in these cheaper packages. even if they can, then they deserve to increase the price to $K entry.

They want to slap on 3d desperately because it looks cool, but it has no functionality.

imho it has. even though they cannot automatically detect collision course, but at least i can do it in my head by looking at the rendered 3d models. something is better than nothing.

realtime drc and other things that make life easy.

i cant recall one pcb eda i used last time. with its own wisdom tried to reroute my currently routed trace to avoid existing traces (i guess thats the realtime drc). slightly moving the trace (mouse) to the left or right changed the routing dramatically around, made my head felt dizzy, i prefer to do it manually one step at a time. i agree with automatic/realtime drc feature, but if it cannot be disabled, i prefer they dont do it at all, easier for others sometime difficult for others, just like a luxurious AT car if driven by a lady with mosquito net on her face compared to by a street racer.

just look at the comments on "autorouter" feature how shitty it is even in Al?ium. if i'm the developer i'll think twice if i have to put my first effort on it. imo they can make it "not shitty" but that requires a bunch of proffesors sitting around formulating the theory for that, and that can cost another multi $K cost.

[free_electron]

they are cheap. i think its not fair to ask $K feature(s) to be implemented in these cheaper packages. even if they can, then they deserve to increase the price to $K entry.

price got nothing to do with it. it's the know-how that costs time and money. and is way above the skills of the programmers.

i can do it in my head by looking at the rendered 3d models. something is better than nothing.

that's the same way as eyeballing if table will go through the door. not until yo physically try it will you be sure.. you either measure it , or try it. 'guessing is bullshit'.
That is the reasen there are things like CAd exchange through STEP or IGES files. people hve been doing that for years. tie to bring it into the PCB world.

(i guess thats the realtime drc).

no. realtime drc is design roule checking. if you try to do something that violates the ruleset the tool refuses.

  "autorouter" feature how shitty it is even in Al?ium.

autorouters are 'shitty' because people don't feed them information and expect the thing to do everything by itself. garbage in is garbage out.
'programming' the router criteria ( the design rules) is an art in itself. and will take a lot of effort.
you will never reach full automatic routing. autorouters are good for interactrive usage like bus routing, controlled impedance, matched lengths etc. That is what autorouters are to be used for.

[mamalala]

That is the problem with all these entry level tools. They want to slap on 3d desperately because it looks cool, but it has no functionality.

Very true. Most of them just use it as a "look, how shiny!" gimmick. It gets useful only once the part dimensions of the 3D models are exact, and if the stuff is used to find out how it fits into a specific enclosure. The tool should be able to tell you that, basically a design rule check against the 3D parameters of the project. Pretty pictures alone just don't cut it.

Greetings,

Chris

[Mechatrommer]

I am sorry to hear this.

I think this is a problem with your graphics driver.
DEX uses .NET and DirectX and pushes the graphics.

Please try upgrading your graphics card.

i've downloaded the latest version 1.12.84. the GUI mangling is gone, now its showing perfectly again. since the programmer blaimed on my graphic card i believe he has made "accidental fix" on it. kudos to ilija for this "accidental repair" now i can relearn DEX from where i was last time . be it that i followed the advice, by now i should already have another extra spare graphic card

[DavidDLC]

Ilja, how do you like the free publicity ?

You better talk to Dave and paid him to have your add on the main page.

When I bought your horrible program for $99.00 USD, I didn't know that I need to pay that every year.

So if that is the case with your current price, explain the people that need to pay $49.00 every year for that toy application.

Again, what an easy way to get free publicity, go ahead and pay Dave for this.

[Mechatrommer]

Ilja, how do you like the free publicity ?
You better talk to Dave and paid him to have your add on the main page.
When I bought your horrible program for $99.00 USD, I didn't know that I need to pay that every year.
So if that is the case with your current price, explain the people that need to pay $49.00 every year for that toy application.
Again, what an easy way to get free publicity, go ahead and pay Dave for this.

i agree. not just he has to pay to admin, but he also needs to clarify some obscure stuffs. such as by claiming "fully functional" demo version, but it turned out i missed some of the fundamental features, such as previewing 3D picture (in the video it is a breeze as clicking a tab or button, but not in my installed version). not indicating such thing including this yearly fee is very unprofessional and users unfriendly, imho. anyway, dex is too slow for my taste now and i have yet to see it doing complex stuff, so i will hold my money in my ash for this moment.

[Mechatrommer]

i mean in example tutorial or anywhere else. i only play with small test circuit. but unfortunately... my computer is quite slow, hmm.

[Amarbir[Lynx-India]]

i mean in example tutorial or anywhere else. i only play with small test circuit. but unfortunately... my computer is quite slow, hmm.

Very Unfortunate ,
    One PCB Software designer is himself is on the forum instead of appreciating what he has he is being grilled by three or four people of the forum

Note :  Again and again its happening ,You People do not like his software please forget and and do not comment  .

[Mechatrommer]

its just my opinion, just as the title said. so i believe i'm still on-topic, am i not?
reports like this are very valuable imho, since not all matters are presented by the creator. it can be a lesson for anybody else, direct advice or opinion from real users.
the creator should be flattered since we are bunch of people who are willing wasting time testing his creation and give CnC, its up to him to accept it, or try to defend (deny) it to infinity.

[DavidDLC]

Very Unfortunate ,
    One PCB Software designer is himself is on the forum instead of appreciating what he has he is being grilled by three or four people of the forum

Note :  Again and again its happening ,You People do not like his software please forget and and do not comment  .
[/quote]

He would not have this comments from me, I was honest with him that his software didn't work on my computer, I followed all his recommendations ( even format the HDD ) and still didn't work, so I asked for a refund and he didn't do it.

Put on my side as a customer, I paid for the product it never worked, so my money was robbed.

Even if the price is $0.01, if the product does not work you deserve the refund. In my case I lost $99.00 USD, even with $99.00 USD today I will be able to buy a mid-range multimeter or solder station or something else.

He never thought of me as a customer, maybe he was thinking only on the money side.

I want to know the people to be aware of my bad experience with this, and hopefully Ilija would learn his lesson.

I'm still a very mad AutoTrash customer after several years passed from my bad experience.

So any comment Ilija will make on my comments, please people put on my side as a customer.

David

[free_electron]

There is a trend to not do this and developers want to rent the program to you e.g. Altium.

Check your sources on that one. That just is not true. A licence is perpetual. you get 12 months of updates. after that you need to pay for antohr 12 months. If you don;t pay the software continues to work . So this is exactly what you do : after 12 months you pay for continued updates. ( except altium doesn't charge full price like you do )

Now, a word of friendly advice : if you want this program to be taken seriously  change the last video you posted on youtube. The routing of that board makes my eyes water and toes curl, it's another 'arduino-class' device routed by baboons...

Why don't you make a real board layout and make a video of that. Any PCB designer looking for a tool that sees that kind of a layout will flag this is 'junk'. I know this is a perception but it does your business no good to have a crappy board used as 'showcase'. Nobody is going to take it seriously.

[free_electron]

Umm. Why am I posting on to a forum that sells DipTrace. 

Cause you think yours is better ? ( not meant negatively )
Cause you want to push your business ?

All perfectly valid reasons.

But go fix that demo video. No pcb tool company that wants to be taken seriously would be caught showing that kind of layout work ..... it reflects bad on the tool...

Now on diptrace.. They were at Devcon two weeks ago. Three grumpy guys shoving a folder in your hand , looking very uninterested ... not a good impression. They were only showing a prepackaged video. Not even a computer with a live version in sight... Not a good idea to be at Devcon which puls 20000 visitors and has Altium / Cadence / Mentor /  Zuken / Elemtn 14(eagle) all showcasing their stuff as well... wrong pond to be fishing in. Especially with that attitude.

[mstevens]

Very Unfortunate ,
    One PCB Software designer is himself is on the forum instead of appreciating what he has he is being grilled by three or four people of the forum

Note :  Again and again its happening ,You People do not like his software please forget and and do not comment  .

He would not have this comments from me, I was honest with him that his software didn't work on my computer, I followed all his recommendations ( even format the HDD ) and still didn't work, so I asked for a refund and he didn't do it.

Put on my side as a customer, I paid for the product it never worked, so my money was robbed.

David
[/quote]

OMG!!! DUDE!!! LET IT GO!!!!

... ok I am going to say it even though I know it must be a thought in at least someone else's mine.  It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the software did not run on your machine!! Unless you were not running a true Microsoft Window OS.  Can you bring one other person to this forum that could corroborate your story?!?  In other word do you know of ANY other single person who can verify that Autotrax or DEX did not work on their system?!!??

I would bet that you could not.  Your tenacity to this TRIVIAL issue is quite ABSURD!!!  You really are just SPAMMING THIS FORUM!!!!  STOP IT!!!

As far as I am concerned you are just someone who is looking for something for free.  It probably worked fine and you just did not want to pay for it!!  To prove me wrong on this, can you provide information as to any PCB/EDA package for which you have actually paid for a license and still own the license?

I don't mind people giving their experiences and I don't even mind when people trash others but D**N  reading the same post over and over is just OLD!! AND AGREVATING!!!  DUDE GET A LIFE!!  If $99 means that much to you I suggest you get some more education, particularly an engineering degree and get you a better job!!

[c4757p]

...you seriously don't believe him that it doesn't work on his computer?  There are so many variables - graphics driver first of all, conflicting software and DLLs, etc... It is not unlikely at all. For example, I have a computer that won't take an install of MPLAB X at all, even with a fresh installation of Windows and nothing else. Sometimes things just don't work.

[mstevens]

...you seriously don't believe him that it doesn't work on his computer?  There are so many variables - graphics driver first of all, conflicting software and DLLs, etc... It is not unlikely at all. For example, I have a computer that won't take an install of MPLAB X at all, even with a fresh installation of Windows and nothing else. Sometimes things just don't work.

No I don't believe him! But perhaps that is because by profession I am an IT Professional (25+ years) and currently work in a group that runs large labs ( >500 desktops, macs and pcs).  I also hold several MS Certifications and a BSEE from one of the top EE curriculums in the US.   ...Well now that I put it that way I am a little over-qualified to double-click a setup program and install a package ...I guess it take a little more than a caveman to install the package.  I take it for granted that I know how to solve such problems.

I also wanted to note that I understand all the variables.  Heck, having an EE degree and having taken many digital design, including processor design, I even understand how cosmic rays could affect a computer system.  ...ummm yeah... I don't buy into his story.

But say I did believe him. O FRACKING K ALREADY!! There comes a time when you have to quit SPAMMING others!!!  I do believe however that it is most probable that he is not give the full truth of the story.  I am anxious to hear from him on the PCB/EDA package for which he has paid and still own a license or for him to bring forth someone else for whom the package also did not work!

[DavidDLC]

"OMG!!! DUDE!!! LET IT GO!!!! "

As I mentioned before I won't

"... ok I am going to say it even though I know it must be a thought in at least someone else's mine.  It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the software did not run on your machine!! Unless you were not running a true Microsoft Window OS."

Do you want a copy of the Windows installation disk ? A scan ? I still have the installation disks for XP, Vista and currently Windows 7.


  "Can you bring one other person to this forum that could corroborate your story?!?  In other word do you know of ANY other single person who can verify that Autotrax or DEX did not work on their system?!!?? "

Can you prove that it worked on my system and I was looking for free software ?

"I would bet that you could not.  Your tenacity to this TRIVIAL issue is quite ABSURD!!!  You really are just SPAMMING THIS FORUM!!!!  STOP IT!!! "

I also would bet that you cannot prove that it worked on my system


"As far as I am concerned you are just someone who is looking for something for free.  It probably worked fine and you just did not want to pay for it!!

I was not looking for something for free, because I paid the $99.00 USD. And I did follow all the recommendations trying to make it to work.


"To prove me wrong on this, can you provide information as to any PCB/EDA package for which you have actually paid for a license and still own the license?"

Oh fuck I will prove you wrong, I bought a $500.00 USD license for Eagle that I'm still using and have not paid any single dime for updates.

Do you want the receipt ? Do you want an email from them telling you I bought the software ? Just tell me and I will provide.



I don't mind people giving their experiences and I don't even mind when people trash others but D**N  reading the same post over and over is just OLD!! AND AGREVATING!!!  DUDE GET A LIFE!!

I just want people to be aware of the bad customer experience I had. It's not about the money.


 "If $99 means that much to you I suggest you get some more education, particularly an engineering degree and get you a better job!!"

Make some investigation before posting things you don't know, it's not about the money, just don't want people to have a bad experience, you seem to desperate to stop this.

[DavidDLC]

...you seriously don't believe him that it doesn't work on his computer?  There are so many variables - graphics driver first of all, conflicting software and DLLs, etc... It is not unlikely at all. For example, I have a computer that won't take an install of MPLAB X at all, even with a fresh installation of Windows and nothing else. Sometimes things just don't work.

No I don't believe him! But perhaps that is because by profession I am an IT Professional (25+ years) and currently work in a group that runs large labs ( >500 desktops, macs and pcs).  I also hold several MS Certifications and a BSEE from one of the top EE curriculums in the US.   ...Well now that I put it that way I am a little over-qualified to double-click a setup program and install a package ...I guess it take a little more than a caveman to install the package.  I take it for granted that I know how to solve such problems.

I also wanted to note that I understand all the variables.  Heck, having an EE degree and having taken many digital design, including processor design, I even understand how cosmic rays could affect a computer system.  ...ummm yeah... I don't buy into his story.

But say I did believe him. O FRACKING K ALREADY!! There comes a time when you have to quit SPAMMING others!!!  I do believe however that it is most probable that he is not give the full truth of the story.  I am anxious to hear from him on the PCB/EDA package for which he has paid and still own a license or for him to bring forth someone else for whom the package also did not work!

I mentioned before I bought a $500.00 USD Eagle license, how do you want me to prove ? Let me know and I will.

David.

[DavidDLC]

Is this enough ?

If you still think this is an edited image or I got the license by cracking the application, let me know, I can provide you with a copy of the invoice maybe ?

Well the license number is there, you can contact Eagle and prove that I bought it.

Now that I proved to you, I expect you to be more cautious with your comments.

And learn the lesson: Is better to have 10 happy customers than 1 upset customer.

Be honest with the information you provide and have a good customer service, believe in your customers. If I would have my refund, today I would be posting: "They have a great customer service" what a difference !


David.

[DavidDLC]

Very Unfortunate ,
    One PCB Software designer is himself is on the forum instead of appreciating what he has he is being grilled by three or four people of the forum

Note :  Again and again its happening ,You People do not like his software please forget and and do not comment  .

He would not have this comments from me, I was honest with him that his software didn't work on my computer, I followed all his recommendations ( even format the HDD ) and still didn't work, so I asked for a refund and he didn't do it.

Put on my side as a customer, I paid for the product it never worked, so my money was robbed.

David


OMG!!! DUDE!!! LET IT GO!!!!

... ok I am going to say it even though I know it must be a thought in at least someone else's mine.  It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the software did not run on your machine!! Unless you were not running a true Microsoft Window OS.  Can you bring one other person to this forum that could corroborate your story?!?  In other word do you know of ANY other single person who can verify that Autotrax or DEX did not work on their system?!!??

I would bet that you could not.  Your tenacity to this TRIVIAL issue is quite ABSURD!!!  You really are just SPAMMING THIS FORUM!!!!  STOP IT!!!

As far as I am concerned you are just someone who is looking for something for free.  It probably worked fine and you just did not want to pay for it!!  To prove me wrong on this, can you provide information as to any PCB/EDA package for which you have actually paid for a license and still own the license?

I don't mind people giving their experiences and I don't even mind when people trash others but D**N  reading the same post over and over is just OLD!! AND AGREVATING!!!  DUDE GET A LIFE!!  If $99 means that much to you I suggest you get some more education, particularly an engineering degree and get you a better job!!

You claim to be a professional.

Well this is a very non-professional way to deal with a problem:
- Not believing in customers.
- Using non-professional expresions: OMG!!! DUDE!!! LET IT GO!!!! DUDE GET A LIFE!!
- Using caps on a forum ( Which means you are screaming ).
- Posting information without knowledge about a person: I suggest you get some more education, particularly an engineering degree and get you a better job!!

Is this what people is going to expect from Customer Service from AutoTRAX ? Maybe because I already had that kind of bad experience.

You guys better change the way you are doing business.

David.

[AlfBaz]

You claim to be a professional.
...
I suggest you get some more education, particularly an engineering degree and get you a better job!!

If you had any of these traits, you wouldn't have spent $100 on a pcb package to begin with, what makes this even sillier is you have the ability to d/l a trial version...

I feel this whole thread has been a missed opportunity. We have the author of an interesting product pop in for a chat about his software efforts and rather than discuss avenues for improvement or ideas for direction of the software, as was attempted by some, instead we put him into a defensive stance because a few users don't understand PC and OS requirements to run particular software...

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

The licensing systems sounds fairly straight forward. What's the problem?

Alternatively you could all use some open source design package, such as gEDA or Kicad. Then you could improve it, and change it as we want to.
Then you won't have to worry about licence fees, serial numbers, support contracts, getting approval for purchase, number of seats, expiry dates etc.

[mstevens]

Is this enough ?

Now that I proved to you, I expect you to be more cautious with your comments.

David.

Nope, my comments were meant to antagonize the HELL out of you just as you are doing to the rest of us!!!!! So as long as you keep stating that you got ripped off I am going to continue to voice my opinion about how petty a person you are.  You lack honor which is quite clear, generally those who have no honor also lack integrity, hence my last comments.  I REALLY DON'T GIVE A FRACK ABOUT HOW YOU GOT RIPPED OFF!! I would bet no one else here does either, and this is not to defend Ilija but rather to get you to QUIT SPAMMING THIS AND OTHER FORUMS!!!  Oh I failed to mention I have a Black Belt in Taekwondo so I know and understand exactly what honor and integrity mean!!!

I guess your hope is that if you scream loud enough you will get your $99 back!!! <laugh> You are a joke.  I've lot tens of thousands if not more on fail endeavors that did not work out and I am still doing quite well; because you know why... I don't spend ALL OF MY WAKING TIME harping on it... I move on and find other ways to make money ... or it not even about the money I just don't want to die thinking about that dime I misplace when I was 5 years old.

AGAIN DUDE GET A LIFE!!

[c4757p]

Oh I failed to mention I have a Black Belt in Taekwondo so I know and understand exactly what honor and integrity mean!!!

    

[mstevens]

You claim to be a professional.

Well this is a very non-professional way to deal with a problem:
- Not believing in customers.
- Using non-professional expresions: OMG!!! DUDE!!! LET IT GO!!!! DUDE GET A LIFE!!
- Using caps on a forum ( Which means you are screaming ).
- Posting information without knowledge about a person: I suggest you get some more education, particularly an engineering degree and get you a better job!!

Is this what people is going to expect from Customer Service from AutoTRAX ? Maybe because I already had that kind of bad experience.

You guys better change the way you are doing business.

David.

I am in no way affiliated with www.kov.com, Ilija, Autotrax or DEX other than being a paid user of the software.  For full disclosure I also own licenses to and use (for Engineering):
 -TINA -- www.tina.com
 -SuperSpice  -- www.anasoft.co.uk
 -Altium Designer -- live.altium.com
 -LTSpice  -- www.linear.com/ltspice
 -Circuit Maker 2000 www.altium.com
 -Mathcad -- www.ptc.com
 -Creo Parametric -- www.ptc.com
 -Alibre Design -- www.alibre.com
 
So please don't lump me in with the vendor!!! I am just a guy who likes to read through the forums and learn. But you SPAM impedes that process.

I am sure I could give you a long list of transactions where they did not pan out to my liking but guess what I moved on with my life!! You know what is the funny thing about... ...my wife says that I hang on to thing and don't "let go."  Geez... if I have been aggravating her only half as much as you are aggravating me with this BS I owe here a sincere apology!

I know one thing though for every post you make about this... I am going to post at least once, maybe more that you are a petty person who need some education, enlightenment, and A LIFE!!!

As for the customer issue... just as in life no vendor will please 100% of their customers 100% of the time.  As one who has owned more than one business my advice to business people is to:

  1. Be honest with everyone
  2. Try to always do the right thing.
  3. Do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to try to DO THE THINGS YOU SAY YOU ARE GOING TO DO!
  4. Don't buy into that BS that the customer is ALWAY RIGHT!!
  5. Succinctly, have some honor and integrity ...loyalty is also a must.

Uhhhhmmmm Can someone find this guy A LIFE!!!  He seems to have some trouble doing so.

[c4757p]

mstevens, just so you know - whether or not you have a valid point, you kind of sound like a nut, and it's probably making people ignore you and not actually read your valid point. You have an air of "Fetch me my meds, I'm starting to hyperventilate".

[mstevens]

mstevens, just so you know - whether or not you have a valid point, you kind of sound like a nut, and it's probably making people ignore you and not actually read your valid point. You have an air of "Fetch me my meds, I'm starting to hyperventilate".

Yeah that is pretty much it.  Because what I really want to say to him is that I DON'T GIVE A SH** ABOUT HIS 99 FRACKING DOLLARS!!! I have read more than one too many posts about it!!!  I really don't care if the rest of the world ignores me, they are not my intended target, DavidDLC is.  And I want him to understand that he is SPAMMING this forum with BS that no one wants to hear about!!! Ok can I get a show of hands of anyone that wants to hear his story more than one time??? Anyone? Anyone?!!!!??? just respond with a simple "me"... anyone???

I hate being a jerk. It really is not my nature but I am more than capable when necessary!

Anyone???!!!???

[c4757p]

Er... can't you just ignore his posts if they bother you?

[Mechatrommer]

I feel this whole thread has been a missed opportunity.

if you really follow the thread, you should see something doesnt add up. "denial of marketing lip service? you dont have to do a thing everything's automatic", "change your graphic card", "format your HDD" etc. i dont expect these kind of replies from a programmer dated from 1984 (see *1). i wish i could make this dude a friend, but to make it short... i kinda pissed off, "friendly speaking"

We have the author of an interesting product pop in for a chat about his software efforts and rather than discuss avenues for improvement or ideas for direction of the software, as was attempted by some,

instead of admitting to improve it or defer the replies, he asked us to buy new card, format our system and try to make complex stuff with it on our own. he didnt provide any example required or helpfull links. he didnt mention the limitation clearly (free version). no, i'm not going to waste my time do a complex stuff with it for the reason i've mentioned above, and obscure stuffs (limit) that i'm going to discover along the way. and he opted to stand face to face with novarm44 et al. wise! wait until Mr Nick Martin is around.

instead we put him into a defensive stance because...

is it wrong to bow and "yes sire i'm going to improve that" or simply just "shut up"?

a few users don't understand PC and OS requirements to run particular software...

so how are we going to understand PC? is it not enough playing with it worth of 10+ years 8 hours daily average? OS requirement? what? its stated somewhere there, what else? should we script something? the target users are a bunch of ee designer, not programmers try to make a program works.

Now, a word of friendly advice: ... it's another 'arduino-class' device routed by baboons..."

now thats what i call "unfriendly", i tried to make as friendly as i can when i tried to re-route the existing example (arduino), i felt like a "baboon", its like oh F, i'm going to have a headache with this. or maybe i dont know the setting i'm overwhelmed with the fancy foobars. a friendly advice to ilija for "software improvement", try to make the "routing style" by default similar to diptrace (snap only to 0,45,90 degree) its alot painless, esp on decently complex circuit.

*1: http://www.kov.com/AboutUs/

"DEX 2020 (AutoTRAX Software) is a leading software design company specializing in the development of highly interactive 2D and 3D computer graphics program.
Since its formation back in June 1984 AutoTRAX Software has developed several software packages for many clients including Silicon Graphics, Solid Works and Spatial Technology."

Silicon Graphics? dude get Real! no offense. i used many CAD graphics softwares, for "leading design level" the performances are far away from this particular DEX app. dont brag where it doesnt belong.

[mstevens]

Er... can't you just ignore his posts if they bother you?

No. That's sorta the definition of SPAM it is supposed to be obnoxious and in your face! It is sent out to invoke a response, clearly what DavidDLC intends with his posts on the subject matter.  I refrain from saying what I really want to say; I deserve come credit for being self constrained.

Honestly though you are right and in 99% of the cases I would, guess this case just met my 1% criteria.  Sorry.

[c4757p]

...but it's not "sent out". It's just here on a forum for you to click on and read if you want to. Don't click.

And sure, I'll give you some credit for self-restraint - I mean, you didn't go on a murder spree or anything 

[free_electron]

For the record : my remark is aimed at the demo board shown , not the software. I have no gripe with the software. I am not going to comment on the software. I have never used it , probably never will as i have a tool that fits my needs perfectly.

My comment is that, as a pcb tool vendor you want to show off your product. And that's done by showing a fully routed board with some complexity in it.

That 'arduino community' class example reflects bad on the product trying to be sold.
Now, there's nothing wrong with the arduino itself . With 'arduino community' i label a category of boards that were slapped together by amateurs that have no clue how to design or layout or route a board. Just because they can make a led blink they think all pf a sudden to be super electronic guru's. they need to grab an arduino because taking an atmel chip and adding a crystal , 2 caps and an ftdi chip with some resistors is already way above their head...  It' like a little kid putting game cards between the spokes of the wheels and pretends he's a race car driver...

If you're trying to sell racecars you wouldn't be caught dead using the kids bycicle as a prime example of what you can do....

[DavidDLC]

mstevens, just so you know - whether or not you have a valid point, you kind of sound like a nut, and it's probably making people ignore you and not actually read your valid point. You have an air of "Fetch me my meds, I'm starting to hyperventilate".

Yeah that is pretty much it.  Because what I really want to say to him is that I DON'T GIVE A SH** ABOUT HIS 99 FRACKING DOLLARS!!! I have read more than one too many posts about it!!!  I really don't care if the rest of the world ignores me, they are not my intended target, DavidDLC is.  And I want him to understand that he is SPAMMING this forum with BS that no one wants to hear about!!! Ok can I get a show of hands of anyone that wants to hear his story more than one time??? Anyone? Anyone?!!!!??? just respond with a simple "me"... anyone???

I hate being a jerk. It really is not my nature but I am more than capable when necessary!

Anyone???!!!???

I have post several times before: It's not about the money. Just to make people aware of possible situations they may have.

Some lessons for you:

Life in a forum is easy, you subscribe to a forum and be aware that you will find comments that you like and you will find comments that bother you, it is up to you how to deal with the ones that bother you. Are you going to attack every comment that you don't like ? Good luck with that. I'm not the first one and I'm not the last one to give negative feedback about a bad experience. This is a free forum for everybody to comment his opinions if you follow the rules that Dave has put ( Some times we forget about them ), people already gave you some good advice, if you do not like what you read, ignore it. That is what I'm going to do with your posts, so if you receive no answer from me, you know why.

AutoTRAX as a vendor should be aware that if they do not have a good customer service they will expect negative feedback, even Dave does not sell a product with his is free videos on Youtube and he receives positive and negative feedback. When I buy stuff, let's say Amazon, I go and read the feedback on the product/service, I read the positives and the negatives. I have read sh!t about a product, very offensive, but I don't take that to make the decision to purchase it or not, I make a balance, if a product has considerable more positives than negatives that will affect my decision to purchase it or not.
So what AutoTRAX should do is to work hard to balance the comments about his product to the positive feedback.

I will not change my mind based on any comments you may put. I have not and I will not feel offended of any of your personal comments you have made. This is a forum to comment about electronic topics and that is what most of the people do here.

David.

[mstevens]

I have post several times before: It's not about the money. Just to make people aware of possible situations they may have.

Obviously it is.  In a message this morning you remarked this morning:

      "If I would have my refund, today I would be posting: "They have a great customer service" what a difference !

So basically it IS about the money for you!!  I knew that was the issue and you have just obfuscated it!! But I really don't care that you did I only care that you have stated it MORE THAN ONCE OR EVEN TWICE!!!

Some lessons for you:

Life in a forum is easy,

First, someone who does not have a life is not going to teach me anything!

Second, I owned an operated several BBSes in the past including a 12 line MajorBBS and later became a Worldgroup system.  Thus I own 2 x 256 count licenses and development kits for that software/platform as well.  So I'm quite familiar with how forums work; I did them long before the Internet was available for public use.  I'm not into bragging and/or boasting I am just making those reading this aware that I have the essential background to be speaking to the issues to which I respond.

So NO DUDE YOU'RE NOT GOING GIVE ME ANY LESSONS!  I would gladly welcome your silence or input on a topic with which you have familiarity... say the search for a life...

When I buy stuff, let's say Amazon, I go and read the feedback on the product/service, I read the positives and the negatives. I have read sh!t about a product, very offensive, but I don't take that to make the decision to purchase it or not, I make a balance, if a product has considerable more positives than negatives that will affect my decision to purchase it or not.

On the Amazon site, do you find any reviews, negative or positive that are posted 3, 4, 5 time or more... the same exact review. Or do you see the same review posting any review more than once?!!?? ....Ummmm right you just proved my point!!!!  I laugh at people's intelligence at times!!

I will not change my mind based on any comments you may put. I have not and I will not feel offended of any of your personal comments you have made. This is a forum to comment about electronic topics and that is what most of the people do here.

David.

Please point to any post where I ask that you change your mind.  I want you to voice you opinion, if anyone has questions, let them ask and then you clarify, and then you should STFU!!  I don't care to hear you harp on the issue!! Uhhmmm based on my early call for anyone that would... at this point it does not seem as if anyone else does either!!!

Here is a real lesson, (I generally don't give them as I believe everyone learns in time)...

Sometime things are just outside of your control, and no amount of crying, pouting, begging or pleading will not change things.  Ponder this in your pursuit of a REAL LIFE!!

Anyone...!!!???  Anyone?? ...hmmm

[ElektroQuark]

Can we KiCAD users taste that better product too for free?

[DavidDLC]

Hi

I have decided to let all you Diptrace users with a paid license have a free full version of AutoTRAX DEX 2020.
Just go to http://www.dex2020.com/Diptrace

I have not forgotten you Eagle users. Yes you can get a free have a free full version of AutoTRAX DEX 2020.
Just go to http://www.dex2020.com/Eagle

Why am I doing this; well to show you a better product. ‘The proof of the pudding is in the eating’ so give it a try.
What have you got to lose?

Of course this post will be followed by the usual bitching and complaints. 

Enjoy
Iliya Kovac

No worries Ilija, for the good of the forum I will not give a feedback anymore.

Please try to provide a good customer experience to anyone that may want to use your application.

David.

[mstevens]

No worries Ilija, for the good of the forum I will not give a feedback anymore.

Please try to provide a good customer experience to anyone that may want to use your application.

David.

{In the SE corner of the room you see a figure that is similar in height and weight to mstevens bowing to DavidDLC}

Thanks David

[EEVblog]

MODERATOR NOTE:
mstevens has received a warning for his personal attacks in this thread.
This sort of stuff is not wanted here.

Dave.

[mstevens]

I would like to apologize to all that endured my posts in this thread.  I got somewhat carried away and was wrong for the "personal attacks" on DavidDLC.  I meant no disrespect to David or anyone else in this community.  I am sorry. 

David, although I sent you a PM ealier I felt it necessary to make a public apology to you!

Folks, thanks for you patients with me.

[DavidDLC]

No problem, as I mentioned to you, sometimes we put to so much passion here that this type of things happen.

Everything is Ok on my side.

David.

[ElektroQuark]

Can we KiCAD users taste that better product too for free?

It seems we can't.

[DerekG]

I have decided to let all you Diptrace users with a paid license have a free full version of AutoTRAX DEX 2020.
Just go to http://www.dex2020.com/Diptrace
I have not forgotten you Eagle users. Yes you can get a free have a free full version of AutoTRAX DEX 2020.
Just go to http://www.dex2020.com/Eagle

Interesting. I note the two links given above by Iliya Kovac (the Developer & Programmer of Autotrax DEX 2020 no longer work (they are about a year old).

I note that Iliya Kovac has deleted his membership from this forum.

I also note that the former mentioned official Yahoo Forum no longer exists.

I have searched for another Autotrax DEX forum without success.

The software is actually quite nice for Schematic & PCB design under $300 (it is actually US$49), however it does have some bugs in it that need working on.

I have sent two requests to Iliya Kovac regarding these (one via his website & one directly to his in-box), however I have not had any replies.

I'm not asking other EEV Blog members if they like or dislike the software (this has been previously thrashed to death in this thread), however I am interested if someone knows of/has located a discussion forum for Autotrax DEX 2020 that is active.

Thanks.

[DerekG]

I have sent two requests to Iliya Kovac regarding these (one via his website & one directly to his in-box), however I have not had any replies.

Following on from my post above, I unfortunately have to report that there is no support forthcoming from AutoTrax DEX 2020. Iliya Kovac (the single guy who developed AutoTRAX DEX 2020) has failed to respond to a bug I reported in the ribbon menu. I firstly submitted this via his web submission page (6 weeks ago), then again via email (4 weeks ago).

I have searched for his members forum, but the old Yahoo forum has been deleted & the one that Google turns up in its cache on the KOV website, no longer exists.

I see that Iliya Kovac is still working on his program. You can see the listed bug reports & new features here http://kov.com/DownloadFiles/whatsnew.pdf

Given that the "bug fixes" are almost daily, I suspect that Iliya works on a bug fix, implements it but does not properly check that the updated code has not affected other code in the AutoTRAX program.

I guess, when you sell a program for US$49 you can't afford to employ extra staff, yet you don't have enough time yourself to provide all the support that is required to respond to your customers.

The program used to sell for US$299, but (the limited) versions of DipTrace & Proteus along with the free PCB design programs such as Eagle, KiCAD & Design Spark probably meant that Iliya could not sell enough licenses to make a living.

Without customer support & without requested bug fixes, there is little point in investing one's time to learn a program such as AutoTRAX DEX 2020.

[nctnico]

Maybe 'your' bug isn't severe enough or it may not even a bug at all. When developing software there are always bugs which don't get fixed because they are not very serious.

[DerekG]

When developing software there are always bugs which don't get fixed because they are not very serious.

Yes, you are correct, but this does not excuse NO support by the AutoTRAX DEX 2020 developers.

Let's say someone found a serious bug. Would there be any forthcoming support or would there simply be silence (as has been my case ............. for more than 6 weeks now)?

[Mechatrommer]

i believe minor bug is not really the issue. i believe the major bug is that dex2020 is somewhat a more advanced MSPaint, the last time i tried it. and then came the major release or bug fix or somesort into my inbox, i keen to re-check, what he linked was a video... to my surprise he put much effort into making it to a more advanced MSPaint3D again ie extending 3D render to capable cartoon fartbook selfie type outlined charcoaled board render. if you ask me between $50 dex and $500 diptrace, i'll work hard and get the $500 diptrace rather than donating $50 into the air.

[Cobra]

Yes, I can understand your thoughts on this software.
I have just finished a 10 month stint with Autotrax DEX2020 In those ten months I have had to download over 50 updates to install! Even after all that, the software still does not work very well at all. I produced a project that I intended to send to my CNC machine - I never sent it! I just could not trust Dex2020. The forum is almost exclusively questions about why this or that in Dex2020 does no seem to work. I have now started to use TARGET 3001 from a German Company. I had never used it before,but in one weekend I had completed a large project including 3D parts.
I could not do that with Dex2020. The cost of Dex2020, if you take into consideration the fact that you have to pay a fee every year for updates (which means that if you don't pay for the updates you cannot fix any of the many problems) is more costly than my version of TARGET 3001.
A piece of software so complex without sufficient 'support' is a problem to say the least - and Dex2020 support is poor!
This Dex2020 is not fit for purpose - it just does not work well enough even for hobby projects!

[Mechatrommer]

isnt altium is like that? and this dex2020 only copycatting it at fraction of price? paying altium for $9K plus (including) 1 year maintenance? if unlucky, the bugs will never be fully fixed by the end of the year, and then you have to continue pay subscription for the fix, otherwise you'll be left with "still buggy" software without any support.

[LarryR]

I too have had the same issue of no ackowledgement of a bug - in this case, a serious one.
In fact, Iliya won't even answer simple questions about how to invoke part of the application - the CNC viewer (Anyone know how? )

The bug I found has to do with allocation and de-allocation of system memory.
If you want to see the bug, start up MS task manager while DEX is tunning and highlite DEX. Look at how much memory it takes up.
Now, do some PCB manipulation - memory usage increases (especialy with 3D manipulation)
Keep doing editing, undo, re-do, normal stuff. Memory keeps increasing.
In my case, my PC ran out of memory (DEX had 2.3GB!!) and DEX crashed.
However, if you minimize the DEX window, memory goes  very low.
Maximize the window and look - you've just reclaimed (de-allocated) a pile of memory!!

I sent Iliya the exact steps on how to replicate this issue - nothing heard back.
I asked what sort of support users should expect to get - nothing heard back.
I entered the previous support question on his Autotrax forum - it never appeared so I assume he censors stuff like this.
I definately won't be renewing and will instead have a look at KiCad.
At least there is an active KiCad forum there where users offer help.

Pity

BTW - I used to administer Mentor Graphics ECAD waaaay back in the 80's (when a SW License and workstation were $150K each).

[DerekG]

I sent Iliya the exact steps on how to replicate this issue - nothing heard back.

I asked what sort of support users should expect to get - nothing heard back.

I entered the previous support question on his Autotrax forum - it never appeared so I assume he censors stuff like

I never heard anything back from Iliya either (web submission 8 weeks ago & emailed support 6 weeks ago).

I am interested in where you found his forum. I even joined Yahoo to find out that his forum could no longer be found.

Please share the link.

[LarryR]

You get to his forum using the FORUM button in the HELP menu of AutoTRAX.
It sends you here:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/autotrax/info

[DerekG]

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/autotrax/info

Many thanks. I have just applied to join the group.

[pinchip]

I have only positive things to say about autotrax dex. I am total newbie, but I have still managed to made my first schematics and PCB with it and even ordered 10 pcs. of those. I think it is easy and intuitive to use. I even managed to create two new parts with it. In addition to dex I have tried Kicad and Eagle. For me dex wins hands down

[DerekG]

I have only positive things to say about autotrax dex. I am total newbie

That's great to hear. Unfortunately the developer (Iliya Kovac) appears to ignore support questions.

I'm sure you found something in AutoTRAX DEX 2020 that could be improved. Why don't you send Iliya a support email to see if you ever get a reply.

I sent him two requests (by standard email & via his web submission page - you can find my post in the previous page of this thread) & 3 months later still have no reply.

Please let us know how you go.

[pinchip]

That's great to hear. Unfortunately the developer (Iliya Kovac) appears to ignore support questions.

I'm sure you found something in AutoTRAX DEX 2020 that could be improved. Why don't you send Iliya a support email to see if you ever get a reply.

I haven't found anything to be improved yet, as said I am newbie still with these. However yesterday there was some support request in Dex yahoo group from some other member, after 50 minutes Iliya had answered to that question. I think that is quite fast reply.

[ElektroQuark]

Quote from: pinchip on Today at 05:36:51 PM

I think that is quite fast reply.






And I think you are somehow "biased".

[Wilksey]

I would have to agree with EdoNork about "biasing".

I downloaded this AutoTrax program, used it for about 5 minutes and removed it from my system, the interface is very over the top!

I would rather use Kicad or Eagle than AutoTrax personally.

[DerekG]

I downloaded this AutoTrax program, used it for about 5 minutes and removed it from my system ...

AutoTRAX DEX 2020 actually does not uninstall very well at all. Take a look in your Windows Registries now & you will find entries left all over the place.

[Wilksey]

Hi DerekG,

Hah, wonderful, good job I installed it under a VM!

One of the reasons I download things into the VM is for that purpose, if the image crashes I just copy over a new one and i've lost about 20 seconds rather than 20 hours getting my system back to how it was.

Bad software!

[pinchip]

And I think you are somehow "biased".

You can think or not think whatever you want. I was just telling my experience about software. I understand that some people might disagree and some agree. We all have our different needs and different ways of seeing things. That does not necessarily mean IMHO that anyone who does not think same way than you are "biased", does it?

[EEVblog]

isnt altium is like that?

Yep.
It was worse at one point. There was one year where people nothing for their yearly maintenance fee.

[Iliya]

AutoTRAX DEX does not add any registry entries.

All config settings are saved as XML (human readable) text files in
C:\Users\XXXX\AppData\Roaming\AutoTRAX Software\DEX
C:\Users\XXXX\AppData\Local\AutoTRAX Software\DEX

where XXX is your user name (Windows).

[IQ955]

Hello,

I'm considering to buy Autotrax DEX, but i have some doubts.
Could somebody help me to decide and answer some questions below:

1. Is the demo version EXACTLY the same as the licensed one,
or the license "opens" some more possibilities?

2. I've tried many times to launch the simulating of circuits both with my sketches
and attached examples - without effects. Finally I've copied VERY CAREFULLY
this simple circuit from manual (chapter: "Always Add a Ground").
So, I've ADDED a Ground and tried even all these three grounds available - flop as well.
Always only: "No ground node present".

Summing:
• Could somebody send me simplest but tested and sure working example of simulation?
(succesfully simulated circuit, step-by step way how to launch even simplest simulation)?
• Have somebody seen this simulating working? There is no example of it on the homepage.

3. Are these instruments (generator, multimeter etc.) just implemented, or there are
only beautiful pictures? I can't launch it.

4. In general - which functions are already implemented in licensed version? All? Some?

Regards, and many thanks in advance for any hint and help...

Marek.

[DerekG]

If you look back a page or two in this forum you will see there is a reference to the AutoTRAX DEX 2020 support forum on Yahoo. I would suggest you log your questions there.

I did not receive any replies to my support requests via the AutoTRAX website or via email, but perhaps you will have more success.

The developer (Iliya Kovac) posted just above, so you can message him direct through this blog site.

[IQ955]

Hello Derek,

Thanks for quick reply.
My problems were partially "self-solved" :-)
After automatic upgrade - simulation goes normally.
Other minor things I'll try to clear on this Yahoo forum.

Marek.

[DerekG]

Other minor things I'll try to clear on this Yahoo forum.

Please let us know how the Yahoo Forum goes & also let us know when you get your first lot of pcbs back as this is the final test that everything went well.

[DerekG]

Other minor things I'll try to clear on this Yahoo forum.

It has been 10 days now. Did you get any support from the AutoTRAX DEX 2020 Yahoo Forum?

[Mi_ka]

(Hi to all - 1st post  )

I came across Autotrax DEX the last few days after looking around for a tool of this caliber.
Last time I used a Capture/PCB program was 10+ years ago when I designed a pre-MP3 player Smartmedia memory (remember these?) music loop player for PBX telephone on-hold use.
So I remember just a few things from the Protel 99SE SCH+PCB suite and that's all - been wire wrapping ever since on a handful of PIC designs.
The need to have a proper SCH+PCB program just arose again and off I go searching the web for the likes of gEDA/KiCAD/Diptrace/Eagle/Target etc etc until my head is spinning by the quantity of forum reading I have done the last few days... A behemoth of the size Protel's offspring Altium Designer etc is not only out of my $$ reach but is also too much for the use I intend to do.

So I download and run DEX for a few minutes and the UI looks impressively self-explanatory vs the other few minutes tests I did of other similar abilities programs.
I really like the emphasis it gives to this self-explanatory approach since I intend to use whatever program I get into a handful of times a year so I will always be forgetting how it works and need to relearn it over and over again.
However I will not go for it.
Why?
From the web-searching I have done on it it seems that it is an one-man-show engineered product of Mr. Iliya Kovac.
Even if the developer Mr. Kovac is of super human abilities, there is no way to properly go through all stages a proper modern software suite demands. He must be going after bugs (his or of the underlaying environment software development tools) all the time so no way to provide proper user support or manage to have it all fixed up in time.
Modern software development goes through team work of mobile and active persons willing to listen to feedback.
So it seems I shall be going the route of the only company I found reporting that they have plans for a native Macinstosh port of their software  and steer clear of impressive but married-to-retailers solutions (also I would love going the Kicad/gEDA way but they still seem lacking a bit in polishing, though pretty capable).
Which is a shame since I really liked the potential I saw in the DEX approach...

[DerekG]

However I will not go for it.
Why?
Even if the developer Mr. Kovac is of super human abilities, there is no way to properly go through all stages a proper modern software suite demands. He must be going after bugs (his or of the underlaying environment software development tools) all the time so no way to provide proper user support or manage to have it all fixed up in time.
Which is a shame since I really liked the potential I saw in the DEX approach...

Yes, I fully agree. I liked the DEX 2020 software very much but it has many bugs that just never seem to get fixed. There is generally no feedback to support questions either. A shame really.

What people often forget is that "you & I" will be investing much of our time in learning the pcb design software. And you only want to go through that process once!

I use both Altium & DipTrace for work. I have also used Proteus (from the UK) which I like the most. The pin limited versions are pretty cheap too. Another nice package I have fiddled around with is Target 3001 from Germany. Also pretty inexpensive for the pin limited versions.

Anyway, just a few pointers that may interest you.

[Mechatrommer]

i dont have problem with one man show, i have problem with people (even many people) who are clueless at the workflow and try to fix and concentrate hard on the things that are not important in the workflow. as has been discussed, besides DEX, Altium is also one of them with they concentration on "fpga whatever" thing and "not hobbiest car expensive" market.

the really important part is a program that does the job, and does it well and bugless. i'm with many others too infact some are still using software from Win3.11 era today, why? because it is working and works very well, still, even though there is no support (even no company) anymore. why still need support for a perfectly working software?

if you really care about "one man" or "not one man" show "married to whom" guys, then you should go and pay for Altium (or the other names such as Cadence et al etc). it is very well "married" to the market and has very many men (clueless men). you'll be excited by their "supportive" support of an "otherwise" a perfectly working software.

[Mi_ka]

What people often forget is that "you & I" will be investing much of our time in learning the pcb design software. And you only want to go through that process once!

After 10 years away from EDA programs I expected them to have moved into the modern "iStuff age" at last. So very NOT so for the SCH-PCB part... 
The only impressive new feature I see in comparison to the Protel99SE is the properly functioning 3D mechanical view. All else seem to be minor improvement of last century stuff.
It seems that virtually ALL makers  of SCH+PCB programs think that you will be using their suites much of your living time so you will be getting to know their "productivity oriented" quirks and mentality at some point so no problem not taking the hassle to think out of that box.
This different approach is what I found intriguing with DEX until I realized that most people complain about lack of proper support that leaves them stranded. After looking more into it I came to the conclusion that DEX is different but not enough to really make the difference.
If childish looking software like Fritzling improves enough (improving all the time) it could mean big trouble for much of the EDA establishment as is today if they do not move into the iStuff age, me thinks. Why? Remember how "industry experts" were sure the iPhone and iPad are no serious devices and were going to fail miserably? I see a similar situation in the low-mid end in the EDA world. Fortunately for most of them, no "iEDASuite" in the horizon, at least till now...

i have problem with people (even many people) who are clueless at the workflow and try to fix and concentrate hard on the things that are not important in the workflow.

I thought the same about the Macintosh platform for 15 years until I acquired the old machine of my wife when I got her a new Macbook. Once I was hooked and said "OMG how many wasted years on Windows" I now find it infuriating that practically no SCH+PCB program is made for OSX (not counting half-baked WINE solutions).
I would just love a tethered iPad to an iEDA suite to use as a touch board to place/rotate/pan-zoom stuff selected in the Mac's monitor and even do work while on the move.
Why no one has gone that direction yet?

It seems that the EDA world is really conservative which is in dire contrast to the modern life changing products it materializes into production lines around the globe for everyone's daily use. 

[DerekG]

I now find it infuriating that practically no SCH+PCB program is made for OSX (not counting half-baked WINE solutions).

Quite right. One of the reasons I've remained a Windows user.

Many people have found that Altium & DipTrace runs fine under VMware or Parallels on a Mac.

http://www.andrewhazelden.com/blog/2010/11/diptrace-on-mac-os-x/

I'm running DipTrace on my iMac i5 8gb. Under VMware fusion 4. Works great and is faster then my windows machine. Yes you need a copy of Windows, but you need windows anyway on a mac if you're doing electronics  design, too much stuff out there needs it. I use unity mode and it's just like a Mac app.

The mac version of dip trace uses Wine, forget that wine is sloooow.

[Mi_ka]

Thanks!

Since this is the DEX' thread I would really like to see what Mr. Kovac or other affiliated person thinks on my mind-burp above but I suppose it is a way looooooong shot to ever happen 

[borisdekat]

Hi, I would like to share my recent experience with Autotrax to this group.

I did came across Autotrax I think about 10 years ago, did try it out and basically for the same reason (see below) I quit for several years. 6 months ago I tried again, invested many many hours in it and I am sorry to say I just bought an hobbyist v7 Eagle license and dumped Autrotrax for the second time...(and probably forever).

Main issue with this program is ...the programmer, Ilija...This guy is not listening to experienced CAD users and unwilling to implement or change product behavior.  This program looks very nice, good looking GUI but just lacks stability and functions needed for a basic CAD schematic/PCB design package. It has a lot of bells and whistles but solid basic functions are poorly implemented/lacking.

As an example:
- Not able to have multiple footprints for one schematic symbols and lacks ability to change footprint easily when doing PCB design (for custom made parts). So it is not possible to change easily a 4E wired resistor for a 6E spaced type.
- If you try to add parts after you have routed your PCB it will un-route  the complete tracks on the PCB (Image you have done a complete +12V route and adding just one part to this +12V, it is completely un-routed...). Response from Ilija: just don't do that...
- Part libraries which come together with the base install are just dead wrong (too small SMD pads, too small hole diameters). Just very sloppy.
- Making selection for cut and paste is in-adequate. No option to de-select part of a selection.

This, together with a heavily moderated Yahoo group (posts which Ilija dislike are not published !) forced me to go back to Eagle and to post this warning to potential users. If you are in for a good looking, fancy application go for Autrotrax, however if you need something which will really support  your work creating in a fast pace a schematic and ultimate PCB: look for something else....

Just my observation of a 6 month struggle...

Boris.

[DerekG]

Hi, I would like to share my recent experience with Autotrax to this group.

Much appreciated.

Main issue with this program is ...the programmer, Ilija...This guy is not listening to experienced CAD users and unwilling to implement or change product behavior.  This program looks very nice, good looking GUI but just lacks stability and functions needed for a basic CAD schematic/PCB design package. It has a lot of bells and whistles but solid basic functions are poorly implemented/lacking.

Yes, I too was drawn to AutoTRAX early this year by its very friendly GUI. But (as you mention) there are basic functions that just don't work.

Response from Ilija: just don't do that...

You were lucky to get a reply. If you look back through this thread you will see I contacted Iliya Kovac by 2 different methods in February/March regarding some core problems with the program.

I'm still waiting for a reply.

Iliya Kovac was a member of this forum early on, received some flak from several users, got the shits up then deleted his posts & cancelled his membership.

He then joined again more recently & one of his new posts is at the top of this page.

This, together with a heavily moderated Yahoo group (posts which Ilija dislike are not published !)

Yes, Iliya Kovac used to have a number of support forums for AutoTRAX DEX 2020. But they are all closed up now with the Yahoo Forum being the only one left. Other's have also reported that he moderates it heavily.

forced me to go back to Eagle

Take a look at DipTrace & Proteus. These are both excellent programs as the lower end of the $$ spectrum. I own Altium 6.9 & Diptrace. I use Altum 13 & 14 & Proteus 8 as a pcb contractor for other companies .............. and I like DipTrace & Proteus the most.

Just my observation of a 6 month struggle...

I understand completely. You followed exactly in my footsteps. I was excited when I came across AutoTRAX, then the frustration built up, then I requested support for what I could only determine were bugs in the program, then I abandoned the software as there is/was no support coming my way.

Thanks again for sharing your experience. At least I know it was just not me who could not get to the point of successfully generating gerbers using AutoTRAX DEX 2020.

[Iliya]

Hi Boris

From your emails to me you:

• Add part
• Wire it to other parts
• Layout the part in the PCB
• route the new wires
• Go to 1 and repeat until done.

I told you this is very inefficient and will cost you a lot of time and the final board will be terrible!

Adding connections and parts to a board will make the board layout and routing sub-optimal. E.g. simply adding a decoupling capacitor as in the video below. Where do you place it.  Then what effects on routing?  Your case was extreme, you literally lays out and route after adding each part and wire is added to the schematic. I know DEX lets you do this if you want but it is not the way to do circuit design.
See video...
http://kov.com/news/no-unrouting.mp4

You are wrong. There is no un-routing problem. See video.

[Iliya]

Yes, I too was drawn to AutoTRAX early this year by its very friendly GUI. But (as you mention) there are basic functions that just don't work.

Basic functions that just don't work! - very sweeping and contains no specifics. How about reporting them using the Help->Support-Report menu item in DEX instead of just posting glib negative comments.

You were lucky to get a reply. If you look back through this thread you will see I contacted Iliya Kovac by 2 different methods in February/March regarding some core problems with the program.

I'm still waiting for a reply.

Iliya Kovac was a member of this forum early on, received some flak from several users, got the shits up then deleted his posts & cancelled his membership.

He then joined again more recently & one of his new posts is at the top of this page.

I don't know who you are so I cannot trace your emails to me. DerekG is definitely not in my database.
As for getting the 'shit up'; well, you are not right. I deleted the posts and cancelled the membership as I thought there were too many Trolls who seems to really be posting glib negative comments. Some seemed to have an allegiance to other software such as Altium/Diptrace - see below...

This, together with a heavily moderated Yahoo group (posts which Ilija dislike are not published!)

Yes, Iliya Kovac used to have a number of support forums for AutoTRAX DEX 2020. But they are all closed up now with the Yahoo Forum being the only one left. Other's have also reported that he moderates it heavily.

I do not moderate the user group heavily. I only remove spam and hate mail. The AutoTRAX user group has 2968 members. Diptrace (One of the programs you own) has 2590.

Take a look at DipTrace & Proteus. These are both excellent programs as the lower end of the $$ spectrum. I own Altium 6.9 & Diptrace. I use Altum 13 & 14 & Proteus 8 as a pcb contractor for other companies .............. and I like DipTrace & Proteus the most.

Ummm, I detect some bias here. If you own Altium 6.9 & Diptrace it suggests at least one was not up to the task. Why did you purchase DEX? Is it that you think both Altium 6.9 & Diptrace were not suitable?

I understand completely. You followed exactly in my footsteps. I was excited when I came across AutoTRAX, then the frustration built up, then I requested support for what I could only determine were bugs in the program, then I abandoned the software as there is/was no support coming my way.

Can't find any problem reports from DerekG.

Thanks again for sharing your experience. At least I know it was just not me who could not get to the point of successfully generating gerbers using AutoTRAX DEX 2020.

Yet another glib comment. AutoTRAX DEX 2020 produces correct Gerber (It should be capitalized as it's a name)
Can't find any problem reports from DerekG
It would be nice if people could just be constructive, even in their criticism. The internet would be a better place and I might find some things I could fix/improve in AutoTRAX.

And finally...

I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.

What's that all about?

[DerekG]

There is no un-routing problem. See video.

Good to hear from you Iliya. For those who don't know, Iliya Kovac is the developer of AutoTRAX DEX 2020.

Please hang around to help users & to defend your software. Much appreciated.

Note to any poster in this thread: Be reasonable as the moderators will not stand for what went on last year in this thread. I will keep an eye on the posts from this time forth.

[Iliya]

IIRC AutoTrax EDA was, and still is written by a single guy.
So that's a very impressive achievement of course, but I would not bet on it as a long term supported tool in that case. For hobby use etc that's not really an issue of course.

Dave.

I'm still here 2 years later and giving support.
See the new AutoTRAX forum http://forum.kov.com/

Regards
Iliya Kovac

[Iliya]

IIRC AutoTrax EDA was, and still is written by a single guy.
So that's a very impressive achievement of course, but I would not bet on it as a long term supported tool in that case. For hobby use etc that's not really an issue of course.

Dave.

I'm still here 2 years later and giving support.
See the new AutoTRAX forum http://forum.kov.com/

Regards
Iliya Kovac

Hi Dave
Just a thought about long term support from large companies compared to small ones.

• AutoTRAX Dos
  
• EasyTrax
  
• CircuitMaker
  
• P-CAD
  

All appear as dead as the Dodo or is it the Parrot?

Altiums' web site states none are supported.
http://techdocs.altium.com/display/ALEG/Legacy+Downloads

Maybe size doesn't matter, perhaps it's more about loving what you are doing. I love AutoTRAX DEX, its my baby!

[DerekG]

Can't find any problem reports from DerekG.

Hi Iliya,

I have sent you a personal message giving the date of download & date of signup to the Yahoo Forum (along with my Yahoo username) and also a brief description of the component picking problem I experienced.

Many thanks,

Derek.

[Mechatrommer]

Thanks again for sharing your experience. At least I know it was just not me who could not get to the point of successfully generating gerbers using AutoTRAX DEX 2020.

Yet another glib comment. AutoTRAX DEX 2020 produces correct Gerber (It should be capitalized as it's a name)
Can't find any problem reports from DerekG
It would be nice if people could just be constructive, even in their criticism. The internet would be a better place and I might find some things I could fix/improve in AutoTRAX.

here we go again. i'm not going to give any "constructive" comment since it will be mistakenly interpreted as "glib"? or troll.... my final "constructive" comment... stop being defensive. 

[DerekG]

i'm not going to give any "constructive" comment since it will be mistakenly interpreted as "glib"? or troll.... my final "constructive" comment... stop being defensive. 

Iliya Kovac has responded to me. He asks that I download the latest copy & he has reset my trial date.

I'm pretty sure Iliya would do the same for you too. Send him a personal message with your trial/registration details. We both then have an opportunity to see how far AutoTRAX DEX 2020 has come during this past year.

I can understand that Iliya prefers to have any bugs referred directly to him before posting them on the web. This gives him an opportunity to overcome them in good time.

If the bugs are significant & they are not overcome, then they can be placed on the web to apply pressure on the developer to do something about it.

I suspect that Iliya has returned to this forum as it pops up in Google's search engine at the top/near the top of the search results.

It is much better for us all to be constructive & to work with the developer. In this way we have an opportunity to work with him to continually have DEX 2020 improved.

If you want to give DEX 2020 another go, please let us know what Iliya is willing to organise for you.

[Iliya]

If you download AutoTRAX your demo period will be reset.
http://kov.com/Download

You can see What's new in AutoTRAX

http://kov.com/DownloadFiles/whatsnew.pdf

In it you will see the bugs that are fixed.
AutoTRAX has built in bug reporting - click Help->Support->Report Problem

[Mechatrommer]

I'm pretty sure Iliya would do the same for you too.

no thanks. until the following issues are fixed..
1) routing like normal eda (45 degree angle only, not random angle trace)
2) faster graphic rendering
3) a working sim (or a guide/help file on how to. all i got is empty sim window)
well... thats constructive isnt it? i dont expect to here excuses such as.. "its working ok in my (developer) computer." until then, a $50 software will never work for me.

[Iliya]

It's all working on my computer.

I right click during routing to select between free, orthogonal (horizontal+vertical segments)  and ortho-angled routing (horizontal/vertical+vertical segments).
Even during free routing, snap is great and the 90/45 route visuals are fine.
Th parallel track move and the ortho 90/45 degrees on the View/Snap/Tracks menu are also useful. I'm spoilt for choice; route like Eagle, route like Diptrace or route like I want to do.

My graphics are fine. Perhaps you could check your O/S, graphics card/computer/memory.

Simulation is OK. DEX has a Help/Support/Report Problem button. Have you every thought of using that?

Hopefully this will help.

[mswhin63]

Mine seems to be working fine as well, no problems with graphics as well. If I had the money I would buy a decent software, although I do have a professional licensed version of Eagle, I am still at odds with it.

Overall I can adapt with each software as it is created and changed and have no real opinion. It is possible that some people cannot adapt, possibly from long time use of a particular software.

I suppose the real test will be usability as I develop more complex projects.

[Iliya]

Mine seems to be working fine as well, no problems with graphics as well. If I had the money I would buy a decent software, although I do have a professional licensed version of Eagle, I am still at odds with it.

Overall I can adapt with each software as it is created and changed and have no real opinion. It is possible that some people cannot adapt, possibly from long time use of a particular software.

I suppose the real test will be usability as I develop more complex projects.

Don't forget to give your feedback to help me make AutoTRAX DEX better. Click on Help->Support->Wishlist an it will take you to [url=http://kov.com/Support/WishList]http://kov.com/Support/WishList[/url]

[Iliya]

Software License

Having stumped up the 49 bucks for a full licence, you can install DEX wherever you want, home or office and on any number of machine.

The only restriction is that DEX should be running on only one machine at a time. So several different people can use DEX, but only one person at a time.

There is no restriction on the number of machines you install it on. Just 1 user at a time.

What enables that full licence is a sign-in/password and user profile. Entering your sign-in and password opens up the software and gives you immediate access to all your options and capabilities. Now compare and contrast this to how today’s traditional software is licensed.

Most EDA software is licensed and locked to a single workstation or laptop, sometimes both. Not DEX. Consider that fact alone. The software that you (or your company) paid upwards of five grand for, is locked to a single machine. If you want to move it and work at a different location (either on the shopfloor, at a customer site or in the field), then you need to either purchase an additional networked licensing system (commonly referred to as floating licences), buy another licence for a laptop, or go through a convoluted process of transferring that licence.

Now, I’m perfectly aware that the current EDA professional design software market has different dynamics to the consumer software world — but does that sound like a situation that can continue? I suspect not.

Whether we like it or not, the next generation of users are going to want a completely different environment in which to work — their experiences during those formative years will drive how software will change. Or at least, it should.

What’s interesting is that these types of frustrations aren’t restricted to new entrants into the design and engineering industry . It’s clear that many long term users share the same frustrations and are looking for something that changes that status quo that rules in the EDA software world.

They want to be able to have not only their software more mobile, but their data as well. When I say mobile, I don’t mean being able to pan/zoom/rotate an assembly on an iPad, but rather something more useful. So, for instance, they want to have availability of their authoring tools, whether that’s licences that move with them or their data.

Does that sound appealing?

[DerekG]

For those who are interested, there is a review of AutoTrax DEX by Free Electron (a PCB CAD designer at Tesla Motors). The link is below:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/dex-eval-by-free_electron/

[MisterBiscuit]

Whether we like it or not, the next generation of users are going to want a completely different environment in which to work — their experiences during those formative years will drive how software will change. Or at least, it should.

Even though I'm not part of the "next generation", Iliya is clearly onto something that too many of us old timers erroneously ignore. The next generation of hardware makers is not going to be interested in EDA software that works like it was written in the 80's to run on DOS machines with CGA screens. They're going to expect the environment to evolve or they're going to leave it in the dust.

What I see Iliya doing here is packing as much functionality as possible into DEX. That's something that no other EDA platform within my financial reach is doing. Does that strategy introduce complexity? Yes. Are there user experience enhancements that could be made to made DEX easier to master? Of course. From a cross-platform perspective, would it be nice if DEX wasn't tied so tightly to Windows technology. You betcha'. But the end result is that Iliya has staked out his position in the market to focus on a single platform and jam as much capability into it as possible. You've gotta' admire that, especially if you're a license holder of EAGLE or DipTrace and wait through 1 Year+ development cycles for incremental feature updates.

[IanJ]

My graphics are fine. Perhaps you could check your O/S, graphics card/computer/memory.

The graphics are slow when you pan around a pcb.....compare it to EaglePCB or Altium Circuitmaker and there is a big difference. My one & only complaint about DEX. Would love to see this issue fixed.

Win7, Intel i7(4770), 8gb ram, with two different graphics cards tested (Asus HD7770 & Nvidia GT640).

Ian.

[mswhin63]

I have almost the same set-up as you i7 4770, GT740 next model up but I have no problem with graphics both resolution of speed. I have Eagle Pro as well as a comparison

[ozwolf]

I have even less of a system - Win7, Intel Core 2 Duo @ 2.20 GHz, 4 GB RAM, 32 bit system.

Runs very well with my small projects, labours a bit with a 9 layer BGA (10X10) X 6 sample project, but that is to be expected for my system.

How big are your projects?

[Warhawk]

My graphics are fine. Perhaps you could check your O/S, graphics card/computer/memory.

The graphics are slow when you pan around a pcb.....compare it to EaglePCB or Altium Circuitmaker and there is a big difference. My one & only complaint about DEX. Would love to see this issue fixed.

Win7, Intel i7(4770), 8gb ram, with two different graphics cards tested (Asus HD7770 & Nvidia GT640).

Ian.

I can confirm the same slow behavior. Setup: Core i5, 8GB ram, SSD, Win 7. I tested it only with the imported Eagle project. It was like 1 FPS.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/dex-eval-by-free_electron/msg641342/#msg641342

[IanJ]

The way I reported the problem is as follows:-

Pinch a pcb (4" pcb zoomed to fill the screen)) in the midde and pan around (reasonably fast), change direction a lot etc.........so how far does your mouse pointer vary from the picked position as the graphics try to play catchup?

EaglePCB = 0.1" to 0.2"
Altium Circuitmaker = 0.1" to 0.2"
DEX = 0.5" or more.

When you are used to Eagle like I am then DEX seems very lethargic.

Win7, Intel i7(4770), 8gb ram, with two different graphics cards tested (Asus HD7770 & Nvidia GT640).
Dual monitor setup.

Ian.

[rsjsouza]

I perceive the graphics "catching up" with the cursor, but in my case it is up to par with your measurements for Eagle and Altium - i.e., it does not come anywhere near half a second.

My system is very similar: Intel Core i7 920 2.8GHz (quad core) with 16GB RAM and Nvidia GTX 650 Ti with driver release 9.18.13.4788 (347.88 in Nvidia's numbering) running at 1280x1024x32 (dual monitor) on Windows 7/64.

[IanJ]

0.5".....meaning half an inch.

Ian.

[IanJ]

All,

Ok, I video'd the issue at 50fps and uploaded to YouTube.

Compare the same pcb loaded into both EaglePCB and DEX and as I pan it around. See how the pcb (graphics) lags behind the cursor on DEX.

https://youtu.be/tH8bpYkotcc

Ian.

[rsjsouza]

0.5".....meaning half an inch.

Error! Can't compute word "inch" with my metric mindset... (I was thinking about the "prime" symbol)

I saw the video and it looks similar to what I see, but I can't tell for sure as my install is at the home PC. I will do a comparison tonight.

[IanJ]

Hi Ian,

Saw it on mine, not sure if it a graphics issue instead some else. I must admit I would never move a PCB that fast or even move it to a degree of accuracy at that speed anyway so I never really noticed it when first posted the problem.

Not sure I would consider it as a serious issue but if something can be done then by all means it should be done. The movement of the PCB board between EagleCAD and DEX though, DEX is better (smoother) than EagleCAD. Maybe that is the key to why the mouse follows slower.

What I did on the Youtube video is just a way to try and demonstrate the issue.
In real life problem is just moving the board around on-screen in the normal course of editing a pcb and the board 'lagging' behind the mouse movements......even if it's just plain moving the board once, say an inch to the left.

Ian.

[Monkeh]

The movement of the PCB board between EagleCAD and DEX though, DEX is better (smoother) than EagleCAD. Maybe that is the key to why the mouse follows slower.

It is far more important to have the display follow your input than to draw it pixel-perfect every frame. Eagle is better.

Eagle slows down badly with multiple layers and polygons. I dread to think how DEX copes.

[mswhin63]

When you do multiple layers tell us and we will know! no comparison so no way to even assume.

It is far more important to have the display follow your input than to draw it pixel-perfect every frame. Eagle is better.

Eagle slows down badly with multiple layers and polygons. I dread to think how DEX copes.

[rsjsouza]

Ian, I guess I see the same lag, although it doesn't bother me too much:

https://youtu.be/OVqSnpFadtg

The board is the provided Arduino example; only two layers

[Monkeh]

When you do multiple layers tell us and we will know! no comparison so no way to even assume.

It is far more important to have the display follow your input than to draw it pixel-perfect every frame. Eagle is better.

Eagle slows down badly with multiple layers and polygons. I dread to think how DEX copes.

It already behaves badly so it can't get any better. Not investing the time to deal with learning it, and it's incapable of importing Eagle files correctly.

[Warhawk]

When you do multiple layers tell us and we will know! no comparison so no way to even assume.

It is far more important to have the display follow your input than to draw it pixel-perfect every frame. Eagle is better.

Eagle slows down badly with multiple layers and polygons. I dread to think how DEX copes.

It already behaves badly so it can't get any better. Not investing the time to deal with learning it, and it's incapable of importing Eagle files correctly.

+1 , I am definitely with you. Especially after I saw how the author ignores comments which are not easy to explain, to fix or simply to comment.

[Takto]

It already behaves badly so it can't get any better. Not investing the time to deal with learning it, and it's incapable of importing Eagle files correctly.

I couldn't agree more. 

[IanJ]

Well, I have dipped a toe and this next pcb for the project I am working on now is being designed using DEX (hand held precision programmable voltage source)..........been on it just 1-day so far and already I've designed a custom part in the library, made an error on the part and edited it..........all without much problem. Have to say managing the library is sooooo much easier than EaglePCB.

But yes, the author seems to go quiet and unresponsive at times (I have one on-going issue), but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt as it is just 1-guy from what I know.

Ian.

[IanJ]

Hi all,

As an update, I spent most of the weekend working on my first AutoTrax DEX project and give the author his due, I came across several issues over the weekend and reported them.......and he fixed them right there and then. Mostly related to schematic design.

I even managed to get some new functionality added in in relation to the library management, which I have to say overall works really well......and coming from EaglePCB it's like chalk n cheese compared.

One thing I did make use of was importing my entire EaglePCB library at the press of a button......over 30k components, and only a couple thousand failed to import.

Haven't done any routing though, that comes later this week.

Ian.

[c4757p]

Uhm.

Okaaaaaay.

Next time you consider using this software, realize it was written by the sort of developer who thinks it's perfectly fine to send someone his damned password in  his email.

Must have learned to code at clown school.


Kids, this is why you don't use the same password at multiple sites. Sometimes you don't even have to wait for a hacker kiddie to steal them somehow, the idiot website owner will do it all on his own...

Iliya, hand in your programmer card until your password database is hashed and salted and you don't have plaintext passwords anywhere anymore.

[mswhin63]

Get a more recent reference. That is 2013 password issue. Mine is not sent across any-more and it is so secure it can't saved in my Norton Vault.

Uhm.

Okaaaaaay.

Next time you consider using this software, realize it was written by the sort of developer who thinks it's perfectly fine to send someone his damned password in  his email.

Must have learned to code at clown school.


Kids, this is why you don't use the same password at multiple sites. Sometimes you don't even have to wait for a hacker kiddie to steal them somehow, the idiot website owner will do it all on his own...

Iliya, hand in your programmer card until your password database is hashed and salted and you don't have plaintext passwords anywhere anymore.

[c4757p]

I got that email this morning, dude.

[IanJ]

I got that email this morning, dude.

Not good!

Might as well update.............I've temporarily (I hope!) gone back to Eagle for the moment until 3 or 4 issues are fixed......well, I call them issues anyways. I am hopeful though that Iliya will fix these.

- Copper pours cannot be used a full-on ground planes (despite fact you can assign a net name), result is that netwires still exist after you drop a via from say pin 4 of an op-amp to pick up GND.

- No full manual tracking per Eagle, i.e. you can't lay down a track and then assign/terminate it to a net later. You have to start with a net. This reduces the flexibility when compared to Eagle. You can lay down polylines which achieves the same thing, however, their are outwith the DRC and don't get a net name.

- UI is slow when tracking.

- Block moving stuff needs work. Not everything moves, some traces get left behind.

Here's a board I developed from scratch in both Eagle (left) and DEX (right). The DEX one pictured is at the point I gave up and went back to Eagle when I couldn't get DEX to do what I wanted without mucking about forever or compromising too much.

Saying that, I still think DEX is a winner if the various issue scan be resolved. The best bit about the software is the library management & the schematic design module.......real nice.

PS. Iliya is working on some of the issues above.

Ian.

[zapta]

Must have learned to code at clown school.

Come on, he programed this entire product by himself. That's very impressive.

[Mechatrommer]

Here's a board I developed from scratch in both Eagle (left) and DEX (right). The DEX one pictured is at the point I gave up and went back to Eagle when I couldn't get DEX to do what I wanted without mucking about forever or compromising too much.

can you make the picture a little bigger? i cant make any difference, they both seem identical, not like what you said.

Must have learned to code at clown school.

Come on, he programed this entire product by himself. That's very impressive.

indeed. only the problem is he cant afford to hire a marketing or support personnel to do the right job. risking security is something not good. imagine you lost $1000 from your wallet thats sheet happening.

[c4757p]

Must have learned to code at clown school.

Come on, he programed this entire product by himself. That's very impressive.

Fuck that. He's storing passwords in plaintext and mailing them out, who gives a damn if he also did some things that don't take massive risks with his users' security? Good things don't cancel bad ones.

Besides, I'd much rather a product that wasn't programmed by a one-man band, it might actually be usable.

[IanJ]

Here's a board I developed from scratch in both Eagle (left) and DEX (right). The DEX one pictured is at the point I gave up and went back to Eagle when I couldn't get DEX to do what I wanted without mucking about forever or compromising too much.

can you make the picture a little bigger? i cant make any difference, they both seem identical, not like what you said.

See a bunch of unrouted nets on the Dex screenshot. I can upload higher res pic If you still want but......

Ian.

[BytesGuy]

I have played with this once before a long time ago and it seemed like quite a nice program and reasonable price for a hobbyist such as myself.

Since then I have been mostly using diptrace after giving up with eagle. Problem is I am reaching the pin limit on diptrace, so I am going to give autotrax another shot and see how I get on.

It does seem to be update regularly and although there is a single author he does seem fairly onto it when you contact him.

There does seem to be an issue when using a retina macbook with a virtual machine though. Not sure if there is any fix.

[Neganur]

What's up with so many of the replies missing?

[Monkeh]

What's up with so many of the replies missing?

Looks like Iliya thought it was somehow a good idea to delete all his posts and pretend he was never here.

[miguelvp]

What's up with so many of the replies missing?

Looks like Iliya thought it was somehow a good idea to delete all his posts and pretend he was never here.

He still have posts in this thread.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/opinions-autotrax-design-express-2020/msg532051/#msg532051

But I didn't go through the whole thing to see who deleted what.

[Monkeh]

What's up with so many of the replies missing?

Looks like Iliya thought it was somehow a good idea to delete all his posts and pretend he was never here.

He still have posts in this thread.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/opinions-autotrax-design-express-2020/msg532051/#msg532051

But I didn't go through the whole thing to see who deleted what.

Oh, so he does.

[BengtR]

Hi! (Just registered so this is my first time here).
DEX uses what you can call "Net wire routing". With that I mean that you route, and are restricted to, route by the net wires. Net wires are similar to the, for all I know, more common rats nest lines but more strictly correlated to the routing. Rats nests are instead only representing guides to unconnected nodes but you can put down a trace anywhere you want. I have understood that DesignSpark also uses this method but for me it was new until I saw it in DEX. After trying this I can see a minor benefit in some situation or for early beginners but mostly it only complicates things, both for the user and the developer of the program - there have been, and still are, a lot of bugs concerning net wires. Using the normal method you only need on way to create traces, you just do it using one tool like "create trace" or something. With net wires you need extra tools or options to be able to create parallel traces, stubs or unconnected free traces. Can anyone tell me if there are more programs that uses net wires and when and how this method came to use? And also it there are any specific benefits that I have not thought about.

[BengtR]

I very close to finishing my first board using Autotrax DEX. I have "just" the GND plane left to do. It is a rather advanced 4-layer board using burried vias and I have also created full 3D models of all parts.

DEX is now coming close to a finished product and that should be very interesting for everyone looking for free or very cheap tools. It has some annoyances but I think I can live with them because there are so many other things that are good or even outstanding.

I have a specific reason to save the GND for last and it is the "route-by-net-wire" restriction. There have been lots of problems and bugs because of this but I think they are fixed know and that I have got the hang of how to route using that method. I will put the result here.

[Neganur]

Oh please do post your example. I've been trying to import eagle (v6) files to it to see an example but it just fails at reading the files.

[IanJ]

I very close to finishing my first board using Autotrax DEX. I have "just" the GND plane left to do. It is a rather advanced 4-layer board using burried vias and I have also created full 3D models of all parts.

DEX is now coming close to a finished product and that should be very interesting for everyone looking for free or very cheap tools. It has some annoyances but I think I can live with them because there are so many other things that are good or even outstanding.

I have a specific reason to save the GND for last and it is the "route-by-net-wire" restriction. There have been lots of problems and bugs because of this but I think they are fixed know and that I have got the hang of how to route using that method. I will put the result here.

Yup, if only I could drop a via down to a ground plane (created by a copper pour) to satisfy a net I'd be using DEX today. Oh well!

Ian.

[Warhawk]

I very close to finishing my first board using Autotrax DEX. I have "just" the GND plane left to do. It is a rather advanced 4-layer board using burried vias and I have also created full 3D models of all parts.

DEX is now coming close to a finished product and that should be very interesting for everyone looking for free or very cheap tools. It has some annoyances but I think I can live with them because there are so many other things that are good or even outstanding.

I have a specific reason to save the GND for last and it is the "route-by-net-wire" restriction. There have been lots of problems and bugs because of this but I think they are fixed know and that I have got the hang of how to route using that method. I will put the result here.

Please share you design with us if you can.
I've never seen any professional PCB board from this software, except few silly arduino examples, so I am excited.

[BengtR]

I can now tell that it is possible to do this even with the net wire restricted route method. It is not a fun process but it is possible. Sometimes DEX refuses to connect to the pad I want to but after trying a few times I found out that it worked good if I was structured and started from one corner. Last time I couldn't even reproduce the problem I had before.

We are used to that you just can draw a trace from the desired pad, create a via in the copper pour and stop there. This you cannot do in DEX. You must follow the net wire so you everytime connects the pad to another pad or another trace of the same net. If DEX was treating the copper pour as such I think this could work just as fine but it doesn't today.

I want to put the vias directly in the pads (via-in-pad technology). That is impossible to do in one step, you have to first place the vias outside the pads and later move them in. That is not a big deal though.

This is the result after connecting the lower line of pads plus two pads on the back layer. First picture is with the vias inside the copper pour and it look totally normal but you cannot see how I did it. If I move the vias outside the copper pour the hidden connections will appear. The trick is that I actually has to draw these traces also and not only the connection from the pad to the via. And this can be tricky because you want exactly one via per pad. As you can see it is obviously possible but the first time you try you will pull your hair! What is important to understand is that sometimes you have to start from a place that you not intend to, connect it and when reconnect the other end. DEX (usually) understand and clean up the net wires fine. If it becomes to messy I think DEX gets problems and therefore it is safest to work from one corner and in, not starting at several random points at once.

It takes some practice but now I can do this maybe just say 5 times slower than in my former tool EdWinXP.... Many other things are much better so from now on I will start using DEX on smaller boards. I cannot use DEX for more complex boards until the copper pour is fully included in the DRC.

For those that are in the DEX user forum I have uploaded a video there. It is

[BengtR]

This is about to change because Iliya has finally been convinced/persuaded to that proper copper pour handling is necessary. I think he has even paused his development of the router to implement a copper pour solution. Even with working DRC checking, at least to some point. (My guess is that it will not initially check for isolated areas and to thin copper pour connections but this is only my personal guessing).

Note that it is possible to create copper pours even in the existing version but not practical. You have to route all connections of the copper pour net together using normal traces or the net wire will not go away making it look like you have unrouted traces even if you don't. These traces will be hidden within the copper pour once created (if placed there). On top of this, which is critical, is that copper pour is not included in DRC.

Ken, You speak of all PCB software you have seen and none have seen the via connection until refreshing the copper pour. I can tell you that obviously you have missed EdWinXP. There you never need to refresh the copper pour while working with PCB, only if you want to see the plots. But EdWinXP is a not very well known software even that it was one of the very first, it has just gone through some (major) changes over the years. If I say EE Designer, you maybe recognize it. However, EdWinXP is what I intend to leave. Still not sure if it is the right decision but I can always go back if I change my mind as I have a full license. I have just stopped updating it.

[nctnico]

IMHO realtime copper pours are a fool's errand. When done right drawing a copper pour takes so much time due to all the calculations and checks that it will slow a CAD package down to a grinding halt when it is done in realtime.

[c4757p]

IMHO realtime copper pours are a fool's errand. When done right drawing a copper pour takes so much time due to all the calculations and checks that it will slow a CAD package down to a grinding halt when it is done in realtime.

Yes, this. It's surprisingly difficult to get right. I'd rather the software be more responsive instead. I turn off pour view while routing anyway.

[timofonic]

IMHO realtime copper pours are a fool's errand. When done right drawing a copper pour takes so much time due to all the calculations and checks that it will slow a CAD package down to a grinding halt when it is done in realtime.

Yes, this. It's surprisingly difficult to get right. I'd rather the software be more responsive instead. I turn off pour view while routing anyway.

What about OpenCL and equivalent stuff? Even LibreOffice uses it for spreadsheets!

https://youtu.be/FK6ctilE7hY

http://developer.amd.com/community/blog/2015/07/15/collaboration-and-open-source-at-amd-libreoffice/

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTQ5OTA

http://www.hexus.net/tech/features/software/69269-michael-meeks-the-spreadsheet-dead-long-live-spreadsheet/

[BengtR]

Well, EdWinXPs solution to copper pour is that it is never displayed in true size in PCB, only when plotting. But it behaves true in all routing aspects. Works well, displaying copper pour as it will be seen is most of the time just fancy and nothing you want.

Going back to DEX gives that DEX solves it in a similar way. You don't need to fill it (true view) to make it behave as it should for routing.

[Mechatrommer]

IMHO realtime copper pours are a fool's errand. When done right drawing a copper pour takes so much time due to all the calculations and checks that it will slow a CAD package down to a grinding halt when it is done in realtime.

Yes, this. It's surprisingly difficult to get right. I'd rather the software be more responsive instead. I turn off pour view while routing anyway.

with this era of 8 cored cpu, this thing should be peanut easy for them. realtime calculation should be made on different thread (core). when done, the result should be passed to the main thread for quick rendering unaffecting user experience. but well, i really dont know what those programmers are eating these days. otoh i agree turning off copper pour is a need and mostly 99% that way during traces editing mode, the pour will only be made when everythings are done, tracing while pour is there is difficult to see the bottom layer tracks, esp when there is no realtime pour update. diptrace got this thing right by having "unpoured" setting in copper pour property. even recently i tried older version of altium, its very difficult to make them "unpoured" during tracing, or its either difficult to find that setting. i have to move the copper pour out of the space while editing, a hack that should not be in the "altium domain" imho.

[c4757p]

It's less easy than you'd think to do the calculation off in another thread while the data you're calculating on is actively changing in the main thread.

Again, I'm not saying it's impossible, it can definitely be done. I'd love to see KiCad do that, if I trusted more of the devs with threading... I'm just saying it's difficult, so you shouldn't be surprised when tools don't have it.

[Mechatrommer]

It's less easy than you'd think to do the calculation off in another thread while the data you're calculating on is actively changing in the main thread.

a copy of the recent data are piped to the other thread in realtime, this should be pretty quick since adding components or editing tracks by the user is performed one step at a time (instead of the inefficient way of the bulk copy of the whole data by request at one time) so a copy of a component is piped without anyone noticing in the background... queue and hold mechanism should also be there in the middle to maintain synchronization between the parallel computing... there will be a lag in realtime pour generation as the user quickly changing the master data but this should be acceptable rather than a hogging GUI due to pour calculation on the same thread as the GUI. maybe easily said than done, but as i said, this should be their butter and bread, not us. i got shocked how the altium guys did exactly this (hogging GUI) while doing realtime DRC that i still dont know yet on how to officially turn it off in general preferences

[firewalker]

I have never used something like this. Is there any video of this feature in use?

Alexander.

[nctnico]

Well, EdWinXPs solution to copper pour is that it is never displayed in true size in PCB, only when plotting. But it behaves true in all routing aspects. Works well, displaying copper pour as it will be seen is most of the time just fancy and nothing you want.

Going back to DEX gives that DEX solves it in a similar way. You don't need to fill it (true view) to make it behave as it should for routing.

All of this copper-pouring requires a lot of calculation to get around obstacles, at the same time following the PCB DRC rules.  Not so bad if your board is small, and you only have one or two copper-pours, the "refresh" of the copper pour would look almost instantaneous.  But if you have a large board with many layers and multiple copper pours, then it is going to take some time [that a human operator would surely notice] every time the entire graphics are refreshed.  So, you don't want this happening every time you make a connection to the copper-pour-- it would be really annoying!  Most PCB packages work by only doing the refresh under the command of the operator.

Going round the obstacles is the easy part but testing connectivity, doing DRC, Z-order, anti-copper areas, etc makes it time consuming. In some of my PCB designs it takes several seconds to do a complete repour of all the copper pours (on a 3.7GHz CPU!). Regarding visibility: the package I'm using has a 'skeleton' display mode for pours which draws a poor in gridded lines instead of a flood-fill so they are see-through.

[BengtR]

As long as there is nor real-time DRC connecting to copper pour is easy. The software assume that the entire area is a valid connection and thats it. If there was an actual connection or not, isolated areas, shortcuts or whatever is checked later when the DRC is done. EdWinXP behaves like that and it is EdWinXPs biggest problem. The core engine is probably made in such way that it is more or less impossible to do any real-time tasks. But creating the copper pour plot is actually instant. Like magic compared to anything else I have seen.

As I said I am guessing but I think the implementation of copper pour in DEX will be similar, it will create a  connection wherever on the copper pour area you connect and accept the connection even if there are isolated areas. You will get a DRC error of course. DEX has real-time DRC so you can deal with it as you like but when again we have the problem of updating the copper pour. It is not instant.

(I have always accused EdWin from still having much of the code inherit from old DOS times. Despite all the disadvantages some of it is like it was written in assembler - fast!)

[nctnico]

Having traces and pours connect to something automatically is a bad design choice. A package should allow to assign a net to a copper pour. That way you can put several copper pours on top of eachother where the Z ordering determines the final shape. I often have a copper pour for a ground plane over the entire top + bottom layer and other copper pours connected to different nets. With the explicit net assignment and Z order the result is 100% predictable.

[firewalker]

It's 49$ again. For anyone interested in buying.

[firewalker]

It could automated to change prices at the start and the end of a month. Because on August 1th it was free.

[nctnico]

Now its my turn: Meh 

[Monkeh]

When he's willing to pay $49 an hour to try and figure out how his program works, deal with his attitude, and teach him how an EDA should work and troubleshoot his software.. nah, not enough money.

[Mechatrommer]

...and teach him how an EDA should work and troubleshoot his software..

no thats not how it works.. he should follow by the rules whether he like it or not... this is AutoTRAX thread.. pay the $49, use the EDA and STFU.

[Monkeh]

pay the $49

Hm.. no.

use the EDA

Definitely no.

and STFU.

Do I have to type those two letters a third time?

[firewalker]

Back to 99 USD.



Alexander.

[firewalker]

An now, 199 USD.



Alexander.

[ElektroQuark]

Provisioining for some days at Cancun?

[LogicalDave]

I'd love to hear from someone who is currently using DEX.  Is copper pour fixed in DEX now?  I've tried several times to use DEX for small RF layouts where copper pour is absolutely essential and had no luck.  Nearly any complex or high-speed board uses copper pour, it is a must-have capability.  The argument that it can't be done seems unreasonable since other packages like Eagle have had fast, easy copper pour for many years.  Is DEX now able to generate the standard PCB manufacturing files (gerbers, NC Drill, position/centroid)?

I love the beautiful UI in DEX and it is so tantalizingly close to being usable, but over many years, I've wasted gobs of time trying to knock out layouts with DEX and have never once been successful with anything non-trivial.  It's fair to point out that DEX is very inexpensive, and that it has great potential, but for now I can't spend more time on it.  If only Iliya would focus on getting the key features (schematic, layout, Gerber generation) working instead of always adding new ones (e.g. 3D rendering).

[Monkeh]

If only Iliya would focus on getting the key features (schematic, layout, Gerber generation) working instead of always adding new ones (e.g. 3D rendering).

Iliya doesn't know how the key features are meant to work.

[Deathwish]

black friday special, only $18

[timb]

black friday special, only $18

Still $20 too much!


Sent from my Tablet

[Mechatrommer]

If only Iliya would focus on getting the key features (schematic, layout, Gerber generation) working instead of always adding new ones (e.g. 3D rendering).

Iliya doesn't know how the key features are meant to work.

he does, except his definition is different from most people out there, and he always right, and its already completed, and you just need to follow his way of definition in order to see the light of dex. anyway dex dilemma is not my concern anymore since i got alot better SW now, innecessitated dex and even "multiple times functionally better then dex" diptrace...

[taiwan56]

If only Iliya would focus on getting the key features (schematic, layout, Gerber generation) working instead of always adding new ones (e.g. 3D rendering).

Iliya doesn't know how the key features are meant to work.

he does, except his definition is different from most people out there, and he always right, and its already completed, and you just need to follow his way of definition in order to see the light of dex. anyway dex dilemma is not my concern anymore since i got alot better SW now, innecessitated dex and even "multiple times functionally better then dex" diptrace...

Ilja, how do you like the free publicity ?
You better talk to Dave and paid him to have your add on the main page.
When I bought your horrible program for $99.00 USD, I didn't know that I need to pay that every year.
So if that is the case with your current price, explain the people that need to pay $49.00 every year for that toy application.
Again, what an easy way to get free publicity, go ahead and pay Dave for this.

i agree. not just he has to pay to admin, but he also needs to clarify some obscure stuffs. such as by claiming "fully functional" demo version, but it turned out i missed some of the fundamental features, such as previewing 3D picture (in the video it is a breeze as clicking a tab or button, but not in my installed version). not indicating such thing including this yearly fee is very unprofessional and users unfriendly, imho. anyway, dex is too slow for my taste now and i have yet to see it doing complex stuff, so i will hold my money in my ash for this moment.

                                                                                I agree! I purchased this software a year ago and now it is "out of date and wont work" I wrote them and they say i need to renew $100    REALLY!  What a joke...(on me)...   There are other options to get work done with more honest and pleasant
companies....

[Chris56000]

Hi!

I paid the advertised fee for this program in July - Illya was offering it for about £37.50 (49.99 USD) at the time - he said you can get free updates for a year!

However I wanted to try the last version I downloaded at the time I purchased the key from him on a Z80 PCB my friend sketched out for me, and found there appears to be no option to enter the key except by going to the "Purchase/Sign In" page - and the last sign-in details I used got immediately turfed back as invalid!

Is this clown making you cough up for a new key from his purchase page every time you want to re-install his software?

Has anybody else had this bother?

Chris Williams

[DerekG]

and the last sign-in details I used got immediately turfed back as invalid!

I would email your current subscription details asking him to sort it out.

Also, try several different browsers first to see if that is the problem.

[Chris56000]

Hi!

Just a quick update to let everyone know DEX sorted my login issue for me and the latest version they offered from their website is now showing as "Valid License", update expiry date 2 August 2019!

There's been a lot of comment on this forum about DEX only been used to make "toy projects" like Arduino shields, so as a tryout for this software, I'll select a typical analogue project from a magazine and try using DEX to make a PCB from it, and post my findings on here!

Chris Williams

[rsjsouza]

Chris, I can tell Iliya is very responsive. Also, the software I have is still working after all these years (my subscription expired on 2015 and an older release still works for me).

One of the drawbacks for me was that building a nice device library with all the part numbers and 3D drawings ended up too time consuming. Perhaps there is a more thorough library these days, but I didn't check.

[Chris56000]

Hi!

I did find in my initial try–out of the DEX software that it's hopeless trying to use it on a 15.6 inch lappy as all the fancy "Office–Style" ribbons and all the other eye–candy, etc., take up too much space!

It did seem to run OK without many of the graphical glitches that plagued early versions of his software tho!

My friend's treated me to a replacement desktop monitor for Christmas, so I'll transfer my Design Spark, DEX, Splan, etc., onto the Optiplex I got to do all my PCB work on and see how it goes then!

I'm going to try the "Poptronix" Audio Sweep Generator Project from October 1973 on the DEX program – this was only offered as a kit with no pcb layouts given in the original article!

Chris Williams